No Kissing in Japan ?!

**Mandylion** · Jul 13, 2004, 08:57

HA!! Knew I would get a few of you with that. But seriously -

I was recently told by a good and well-learned friend that there was no kissing in Japan until the Meiji Restoration. Apparently, the story goes, the great Sakamoto Ryoma (185 - 1867) kissed his wife after reading about it in a book about western culture.

My wife did a little research into the word "kiss" in Japanese. As we all know, it is usually written in katakana as kisu (キス). However, there is also a kanji - which I unfortunatly left at home, along with my good dictionary - and I will get back to it when I can. The catch is this kanji was produced in the modern era, after 1900. It would seem at cursory examination that there was no historical conception of kissing in Japan.

This may or may not mean that kissing existed. However, in a culture with as much love of literature and words as Japan, I find it hard to believe they would have just overlooked "kiss."

Is this true? I have no idea. I have never come across this bit of trivia in all my days and I do not have good books with me out in rural Japan. I googled the subject and came up with many pages on how to kiss others, but nothing on the history of the kiss in Japan. Everyone I ask just kind of looks at me like they always do when I come up with an odd question.

So I thought I would throw this open to the erudite JREF community and see what turns up.

PS: No one had better send this into that trivia show that comes on Wednesday nights. I stole the idea first

**bossel** · Jul 13, 2004, 09:40

Interesting. Didn't know that. So I did a little research online, but no real result. Only this in a more general history of kissing:

"There appears to have been no kissing in ancient Egypt, and until Western contact it was unknown among the Somali, the Lepcha of Sikkim and the Siriono of South America. The Thonga of South Africa find it disgusting, some Finnish tribes that routinely bathe together naked think kissing is indecent, and in China and Japan it has not been a traditional part of the romantic arts."

I hope, others here know more about it.

**kirei_na_me** · Jul 13, 2004, 09:55

What a shame...

Anyway, I was told there was no kissing in Japan pre-Meiji Restoration too. There was no answer for my question of "Why?", though. The best guess was that it was disgusting because of the exchange of saliva. Who knows? This is very interesting. I hope someone knows the answer.

**canadian_kor** · Jul 13, 2004, 10:46

Originally Posted by bossel

Interesting. Didn't know that. So I did a little research online, but no real result. Only this in a more general history of kissing:

"There appears to have been no kissing in ancient Egypt, and until Western contact it was unknown among the Somali, the Lepcha of Sikkim and the Siriono of South America. The Thonga of South Africa find it disgusting, some Finnish tribes that routinely bathe together naked think kissing is indecent, and in China and Japan it has not been a traditional part of the romantic arts."

I hope, others here know more about it.

Isn't kissing someone you're romantically involved with just as natural as wanting water when you're thirsty? I mean, I can't see any culture or ethnic population leaving this out in the act of affection. For me, it is a very satisfying way of expressing your affections to the person you're romantically tied to.

**silver angel** · Jul 13, 2004, 13:36

I don't think I could live without a kiss...even though I haven't been kissed yet...but no worries, I'm working on it

**Arch** · Jul 13, 2004, 18:43

No kissing ! oh thats a shame !!!!! as some of you have said above, it probably was seen as disgusting as you was swapping saliva.
Glad its changed ! now they can join the party !

**Uncle Frank** · Jul 13, 2004, 19:07

I don't have a date on the paintings, but many old Shunga(sexual) art works show kissing. Made me think of the old saying about prostitutes never kissing their johns?
If we could find art work we know the dates on, that show kissing, it should prove it took place often enough to be in the artists mind.

Frank

**Foxtrot Uniform** · Jul 13, 2004, 20:00

It was probrably because back then, there was a higher risk of passing on diseases and viruses through kissing, so ancient cultures used common sense and didn't kiss. Poor bastards...

**vinsento** · Jul 13, 2004, 20:37

No kissing? Oh dear, would I still be traveling to Japan??

One must wonder...

**Foxtrot Uniform** · Jul 13, 2004, 20:49

Originally Posted by vinsento

No kissing? Oh dear, would I still be traveling to Japan??

One must wonder...

Lol, don't worry, there's lots of kissing now, though I've rarely seen people kissing in public in Japan.

**NANGI** · Jul 13, 2004, 22:25

Konnichiwa Mina-san!

Why was there no kissing in Japan? Because Japanese hated to touch with others. And Japanese never kissed, shook hands and hugged.

But there was a kiss in Japan as a small minority. It is "Kuchisui" and means "sucking mouth".

This word "Kuchisui" is a romance(or love affair?) word and it is not same as greeting kiss in the West. Greeting kiss is a "Seppun" in Japan.

NANGI

**Arc Light** · Jul 14, 2004, 05:18

geez...us westerners and our desire to put our mouths on or in everything...

coming from the same people who came up withthe idea of putting our toungues on ice or other frozen objects.

**Mandylion** · Jul 14, 2004, 08:33

Frank and Nangi - very interesting thank you. I would be very interested in the dates on the prints Frank.

Nangi - I was talking about romantic kissing, not kissing as a form of greeting. So contrary to the rather blanket statement that there was no kissing in Japan, it would be better to say kissing existed, but was not a very popular undertaking?

**Golgo_13** · Jul 14, 2004, 09:04

The Japanese have short tongues.

**silver angel** · Jul 14, 2004, 09:56

Well that's news to me.

**NANGI** · Jul 14, 2004, 19:19

Konnichiwa Mina-san!

Originally Posted by Mandylion

Nangi - I was talking about romantic kissing, not kissing as a form of greeting. So contrary to the rather blanket statement that there was no kissing in Japan, it would be better to say kissing existed, but was not a very popular undertaking?

I think so.

Japanese are very shy and they don't kiss in public even now. But of course there are exceptional young who has no shame.

Old days, touching another person was very rudeness in Japan. And Japanese never kissed, shook hands and hugged. Only bow.

But they touched their husband and wife each other.

NANGI

**Maciamo** · Jul 14, 2004, 23:06

What about kissing children on the forehead as a sign of affection ?

What about kissing during sex for husbands and wives or lovers ? What about oral sex ? I can believe that kissing in front of other people was never seen or that it was considered disgusting, but the same is true for sex. So, that brings me to believe that kissing happened during sex in Japan as well.

**kirei_na_me** · Jul 14, 2004, 23:16

That's what I was thinking, Maciamo. When I was told by my husband that 'it just was not done', because of the exchanging of saliva and the 'no touching' rule, I asked him what about sex. Touching has to be done for sex to occur, aren't more 'personal' bodily fluids exchanged, and isn't kissing just a given when in the 'act'? Well...hmmm...I don't know about that. Sometimes it does seem that both parties just want to get things 'done' without anything other than the actual intercourse, so...maybe it is true? Who knows?

**bossel** · Jul 15, 2004, 03:17

Kissing & sex? Interesting points.
I've seen some documentaries here in Germany, in which they said that most prostitutes deny their costumers to kiss them on the mouth for that would show too much affection.
Maybe, if Japanese saw sex as a mere way of reproduction, not much affection would be involved anyway?

How did Japanese see sex in history? Was it mere reproduction or more of a fun thing?

**Golgo_13** · Jul 15, 2004, 03:28

Originally Posted by bossel

How did Japanese see sex in history? Was it mere reproduction or more of a fun thing?

Why don't you go ask the Catholic Church first.

**digicross** · Jul 17, 2004, 03:27

"24 Peoples Who Don't French-Kiss"

http://www.reaiche.org/French_Kiss.html

The number was off though, it's not like 1,6 billions, it's more like most of the world's population.

I think that most of the Japanese seems to be more in common with the most of world's population.

Anyway. People don't do mouth to mouth kiss is because due the fact that mouth to mouth kiss is an easy way to transfer disease (not to mention any alien organisme), blocked respiration, and for that many reasons that people don't do mouth to mouth kiss. It's true a thousand year ago, it's still true now.

The Eskimos kiss by rubbing their nose, probably to share affections without harming each other.

I think that children reaction of rejection when they saw people doing mouth to mouth kiss it's actually very reasonable, it's probably a natural response and clear thinking (kids aren't that far programmed yet.).

It's kinda scary that the mass media regulary showed us this death defying act and potrayed as if it was a normal and harmless action.

I always tend to look the other way if I saw people do mouth to mouth kiss, don't know why, if it was due brainwashing or basic instict, I'm not exactly certain. Not that I don't mind people sharing affections, but I always felt like that there seems to be something wrong with it.

On a related note, I don't mind seeing sexual intercourse at all, as long that it don't involve me seeing the penis (no straight guy would want to see another guy's penis) and the clitoris (why some people make a big deal about a 'door'?).

Anyway. It's seems to be a safe bet to say that mouth to mouth kiss in Japan was popularized after the Meji restoration, the era when common sense become less and odd ways were implemented.

As for sex.

I think that people in the past are more practical, more sensible, more reasonable, and more sane in regarding sex.

Sexual intercourse is just that, a sexual intercourse, a penis inside a vagina, and deposit of semen inside the vagina.

Anything else is not sexual intercourse. Though I'm sure that they do share some intimate contacts with each other, that some of them modern people consider as sexual activities, foreplay, making out, and so on.

It should be noted though that people in the past if the couple could afford to, they don't sleep beside each other each night, they tend to sleep in different beds, rooms, or even houses. My great grandparents (who were Chinese in descent) sleeps in different beds.

While this might sound like a way to part the couple, it actually made a much better relationship, this way the couple got their private space and the barrier actually reinforce the relationship (remember the story about the cow boy and weaving girl?).

In the past, I doubt that the question "how do you feel on waking up beside the same person everyday?" is asked many times.

Overall, I think that people in past loved each other, but they don't care much about romance. Unfortunately, people in the present got too much focused on romance that they have forgetten on how to love, even worse that they equate love with romance.

**Golgo_13** · Jul 17, 2004, 06:09

Originally Posted by digicross

It's seems to be a safe bet to say that mouth to mouth kiss in Japan was popularized after the Meji restoration, the era when common sense become less and odd ways were implemented.

I beg to differ.

"Kissing in Japan was popular"?!?!?! During Meiji and Taisho eras?
Oh, come on! It's not even popular TODAY!!!!!!

Do you know what life was like in Japan during Meiji and Taisho?

People back then might have known about what kissing was but surely they hardly ever saw anyone actually do it.

It's only after the end of WWII when Japan REALLY tried to be like Americans, and American films and TV shows (containing kissing scenes) became widely available for viewers. Even back in the 1960's I never saw any Japanese couples kissing in public. I once saw a kissing scene in a Japanese film in the late '60s and that was the first time I ever saw a Japanese couple kiss.

**bossel** · Jul 17, 2004, 06:47

Originally Posted by digicross

"24 Peoples Who Don't French-Kiss"

http://www.reaiche.org/French_Kiss.html

The number was off though, it's not like 1,6 billions, it's more like most of the world's population.

The number was off, but probably in the other direction. Chinese do kiss, it's only rather uncommon (though this is changing recently) to do it openly.

Anyway. People don't do mouth to mouth kiss is because due the fact that mouth to mouth kiss is an easy way to transfer disease (not to mention any alien organisme),

I always tend to look the other way if I saw people do mouth to mouth kiss, don't know why, if it was due brainwashing or basic instict, I'm not exactly certain. Not that I don't mind people sharing affections, but I always felt like that there seems to be something wrong with it.

On a related note, I don't mind seeing sexual intercourse at all, as long that it don't involve me seeing the penis (no straight guy would want to see another guy's penis) and the clitoris (why some people make a big deal about a 'door'?).

There is something wrong with kissing, as it is an easy way to transfer diseases? Sexual intercourse doesn't involve the same danger, or what do you want to say?

As for "no straight guy wants to see another guy's penis", I'm not absolutely sure, but I think many porn movies feature the penis on its in & out of the vagina quite prominently. Most porn movies are targeted towards straight men, AFAIK.

BTW, nice article on the reasons for kissing with some references:
The Punch behind the Peck: A Behavioral and Physiological Analysis of the Kiss

**Golgo_13** · Jul 17, 2004, 06:55

Originally Posted by Golgo_13

I beg to differ.

"Kissing in Japan was popular"?!?!?! During Meiji and Taisho eras?
Oh, come on! It's not even popular TODAY!!!!!!

Do you know what life was like in Japan during Meiji and Taisho?

People back then might have known about what kissing was but surely they hardly ever saw anyone actually do it.

It's only after the end of WWII when Japan REALLY tried to be like Americans, and American films and TV shows (containing kissing scenes) became widely available for viewers. Even back in the 1960's I never saw any Japanese couples kissing in public. I once saw a kissing scene in a Japanese film in the late '60s and that was the first time I ever saw a Japanese couple kiss.

However, there exists a Japanese word for kissing:

接吻【せっぷん】 (n) kiss; kissing

So it might have pre-dated the Meiji Restoration, but people just did it in the privacy of their own homes.

"Seppun" not to be confused with "Seppuku". But sometimes kissing a woman could be like committing Harakiri (Harry Carey)