Can you ever get truly "close" to someone who is Japanese?

[Emoni]

This is kind of a big question, and I'm going to hope it doesn't sound like a racist insult.

I have been around a good number of men and women from Japan, only gotten to really know one or two, but only to a certain extent. There is always a "wall" I guess. The most recent person, it was difficult to even maintain a friendship type of relationship, due to the fact they always had something else to do. Only many months later would they even mention doing something, and even that didn't seem to be the case.

I guess I'm wondering if this wall will always be there. If you can ever get past the cultural barriers and just "talk about anything." I'm sure this seems a bit of a silly question, but I'm still very lost in a lot of the culture and reasons, and probably always will be. It seems that I can be told how special of a friend or person I am, but then... I don't even hear from them again.

I guess I just don't understand... :souka:

[RockLee]

It's because they aren't used to it I guess :? It's something new...and they kinda look at it with precaution.Well my friend is the one that ALSO can't wait to see me in real life...but on the other hand...I often imagine what it would be like when we are together...and are talking etc...

[Psi-dood]

Ya I feel ya on that....

There was this girl I used to like, now we are just friends, even though we have known each other for 5 years now.. and STILL there is a wall. We are just party friends, act buddy buddy and drink/smoke/dine together but... when it comes to anything that is actually deep, meaningful, and personal.. BAM! Wall... sometimes I think my friend is terrified by me, scared, or SOMETHING I have no clue... Talking to her is like talking to someone I dont hardly know...still though... she still calls everytime to hang out when she visits San Diego every few months. Every single time... there is a HUGE wall and it drives me nuts. Its kind of wierd to have a friend who I'v know for so long, and when we hang out, it feels like I'v only known her for a week or so.... :? I am flat out clueless, and I am about to give up!

I think she just acts like this towards me only though... so.. Either way, I still have no clue and it drives me nuts.

Maybe if I was psychic or something.. that would help :giggle:

nandesu ka? wakarimasen... :kanashii: :clueless: :kanashii:


Language Disclaimer please read: Sumimasen, Nihongo ga sukoshi wakarimasu, demo mada jozujarimasen... sumimasen!

[Emoni]

^

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Know the feeling as well... hurts horribly. From what you say about her I'd swear it is the same person we know lol.

[Psi-dood]

Want a cigarrette man... oh and here is a Newcastle for ya to.. oh? Dont have a light, I'll light ya up man, no worries...

Here is to absolutely drop dead gorgeous japanese women who are impossible to talk to even after knowing them for many years. To being strangers!

:beer: KAMPAI! :beer:

[Elizabeth]

Somewhere between a wall and 'talk about everything'....closer to a fence, gate or maybe one of those three layer roadside stone walls :p But mostly because my conversational Japanese is improving and he has a bad attitude about too much English practice (although it's pretty good comparatively), so I can call more instead of everything being email. I would recommend against making directly personal overtures if at all possible, though :okashii: . In our case, he has a creative or artistic outlet in music and a fascination with "deep, meaningful" lyrics which I sometimes try to use as a non-threatening way to broach more intimate discussions. It's definately a challenge. You sort of have to feel each other are on the same wavelength for the barriers to begin fissuring and then if you're lucky, start slowly getting beaten down....

[Emoni]

*Puff* *Puff* :smoke:

*Nod* *Nod* :mad: :silly: :bawling:

[Psi-dood]

:smoke: *puff* *puff* *puff* :smoke:

Ok I feel better now :smug:

[Ewok85]

Like Elizabeth said, it may be a wall, but it has a door ;)

With Japanese people you do 'feel' that theres layers to how well you know people, some of my friends are open and honest while some are just showing me themselves on the outside, not letting me know the person within. Time fixes that.....

[Emoni]

Ya, if only ;)

Thanks for the comments Elizabeth. You can guess who I'm talking about of course ;P Guess I'm just still trying to figure it all out. Been reading books on culture and language, and I about the social differences. Thought it would clear things up, but just made it worse heh.

Thought maybe it was some sort of "step" in a friendship or relationship. Guess it really is "always there" then... Wonder if I'll ever find that door, or at least see the wall again.

The person will be gone in less than two weeks... the last time she mentioned doing something, I said I could then she said she was busy seconds later and didn't know with what.

:clueless:

I think I'm just totally crazy now :P

[Psi-dood]

need more puffing!

:smoke: *puff*:smoke:*puff*:smoke:

[Emoni]

need more puffing!

:smoke: *puff*:smoke:*puff*:smoke:

:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:
:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:
.
.
.

:mad:

Nope. :D

[Ewok85]

In recogizing the wall you just make it worse for your self.

I'm with Psi-dood, just sit back and take it how it is.

[Emoni]

Don't have any choice, but to do that. :) Just always in the back of my mind wondering is all.

[Psi-dood]

the last time she mentioned doing something, I said I could then she said she was busy seconds later and didn't know with what

No way man! You for reals? I get that exact thing to! What usually happens to me is... I give up my entire evening to hang out, all my friends leave, I am all alone, waiting on her. Than.. I get this for the rest of the night as I wait...

*cricket* *cricket* *cricket*

[many hours later]
*ring!* *ring!* *ring!*
me: hello?
friend: GOMEN! sorry I cant make it!

[shotime77780]

hmm i personaly dont notice any big "wall" when meeting some one from a different culture... :? :? maybe im just used it ive always been in different cultures through out my short life i sometimes dont know where i belong :( :( :(

[Emoni]

Hey, at least you get a call Psi... :P

[Psi-dood]

Yeap, just relax.. try to chill out, and just be there when she needs you, wants to hang out, and talk (usually about nothing). I gave up trying... :smoke:


Got another cigarrette?

[Emoni]

No more cigarretes, started eatting them, ran out :) Maybe someday it will all make sense... just decades from now ;)

[Elizabeth]

In recogizing the wall you just make it worse for your self.

I'm with Psi-dood, just sit back and take it how it is.
I guess I've just had the good fortune of meeting two or three who were extremely self-aware and would tell me straight up "I like to keep a certain distance with people, there are some things from my past that even my closest friends and relatives don't know, even very important things" or "I have to play my role and do what's expected of me in this matter." Not that I'm interested in every detail from someone's past either and I don't go around talking about that kind of stuff either, so it relieves the pressure immensely and now both of you know where the other stands. But they were both in their 30's and 40's....so maybe it is just a matter of fine aging, or at least being able to hang around that long. ;).

[Golgo_13]

I guess I'm wondering if this wall will always be there. If you can ever get past the cultural barriers and just "talk about anything." I'm sure this seems a bit of a silly question, but I'm still very lost in a lot of the culture and reasons, and probably always will be. It seems that I can be told how special of a friend or person I am, but then... I don't even hear from them again.

Would you say the same thing about someone from a white European country? France? Italy? Greece? Russia?

[Emoni]

I don't know, I really don't know anyone from Italy, France or European countries oddly enough. And I live in California!

If it was the same circumstances, yes probably. Wasn't meant to sound racist, but was just trying to figure out if it was cultural, my perception, or maybe just that person.

I know so little about Japanese culture, I can't just say "Oh, this means that." or "He/She is just being this way because..." I simply don't know the reasons half the time, and could never guess what this person is thinking. I'm not sure at all what to make of it. With the "wall" there it is very difficult to get to know someone so you CAN understand the way they think and understand the reasoning.

[Maciamo]

When I see how Japanese behave between themselves, it seems that relations are not so deep. My wife knows hundreds of people that she would describe as "friends", but she usually meet them once a year, and even her "best-friends", not more than once every few months - except those who work with her, of course. So she is always meeting people, but there doesn't seem to be the same kind relationships as Westerners usually have together. Of course, they can talk about all and anything, about personal issues, work, marriage, sex, or whatever, but are these really friends she can rely on in case of serious problem ? Usually not.

I have noticed that in Japan, even between "friends" (or "best-friends" !) it is considered normal to pay for the services they do for you, as if they were strangers. For example, if she has a friend who is a hairdresser, she wouldn't even expect a discount when she goes there to have her hair done. That strikes me as weird, as for me, friends are worth of special treatment. But when I told her that, she just replied that her friends also need to make their living. The Japanese approach is "life is hard, and we must get money to survive". The key word is "money". I have never seen any other economically developed country where people were so concerned about money.
My wife had to pay her mother a rent to stay in her own house since she was 20. I thought that was rather harsh from her mother, but she said it was normal in Japan. Children are also expected to pay some very expensive presents to their parents around 20 years old, to (partly) pay back what they have spent for their upbringing. I think the Western mentality is rather telling one's parents "but I didn't ask to be born", and giving full-responsibility to the "genitors" for their acts.

All this to say, that IMHO, inter-personal relations in Japan are based mainly on money (and mutual respect). The rule is do not do or expect anything from someone that you wouldn't want to give them. But for Japanese, doing something has always a price, even for friends, so there aren't many things they would do by pure generosity. Even paying the restaurant for you only means that they expect you to do the same for them the next time.

But japanese are always very concerned of others' fellings, so they will generally propose to help someone someone (even a stranger) in difficulty. If you seem lost, they'll ask you where you are going (that doesn't cost them anything). In that case, they do it because they'd like someone (a stranger) to help them if they were in the same situation. But often, they just want to practice their English, and if you answer them in Japanese, they'll be surprised and disappointed (if that was their goal). So Japanese certainly look very amiable and easily approachable, but the depth of their feelings is usually not what a Westerner would expect. There is often another reaosn behind.

[Emoni]

Well, everyone is different, so I know that these types of things aren't going to apply to everyone. However, cultural differences can be very distinct and effect quite a bit. I guess this might be one of them...

I just don't understand :P At least I can realize I don't understand though :)

[PopCulturePooka]

My wife had to pay her mother a rent to stay in her own house since she was 20. I thought that was rather harsh from her mother, but she said it was normal in Japan.

My parents in Australia made me do the same thing.

Basically said that you either move out and pay rent elsewhere or live here and pay less rent.

[Maciamo]

There was this girl I used to like, now we are just friends, even though we have known each other for 5 years now.. and STILL there is a wall. We are just party friends, act buddy buddy and drink/smoke/dine together but... when it comes to anything that is actually deep, meaningful, and personal.. BAM! Wall...

I can see 2 explanations to that.

1) Japanese expect others to guess their feelings. They won't try to explain in a rational way how they feel, because most of the time, they are incapable of it.

In Japan, it seems that even the way people feel in a given situation has been harmonized, so once you understand how a few Japanese feel, it works for others too. Interestingly, Japanese think emotion guessing is universal, so even my wife think she knows what I want, what I like or how I feel, but she is wrong over half of the time. I might be a particularily difficult person to read through, but there is also the cultural difference AND gender difference (women are more emotional). It seems to me that Japanese people have more straightforward emotions like love, hate, joy, fear... but mine are never so distinct. It's often an amalgalm of various raw emotions, logic and rationalized emotions (that is, emotions created by reasoning).

2) It could be that the average Japanese do not have such deep feelings (how try to restrict them ??). I see with my wife, in-laws and friends that their every concerns are very simple (eat, get money, sex, hot bath...). It is very deeply rooted in their mentality. Even when travelling, most Japanese only care about food, beaches or shopping. The best way to see in is opening a Japanese guide-book, which is very detailed for food and massage, but the culture, history, economy, politics, arts and religion sections, indispensable parts of any Lonely Planet, Rough Guide or Let's Go guidebook, is so-to-say absent of similar Japanese guidebooks (like the yellow 地球の歩き方). My point is, most Japanese are satisfied with drinking, eating, smoking and chatting with their friends, and do not see the need to discuss more meaningful things, be it reflecting on their life, discuss politics, or analyze the latest literary publications.

[Emoni]

I can almost understand number 1. But I don't think I could ever make myself believe number 2...

[remember_august]

"I don't have any japanese friend, but I think if we can be friends to other people, we could be friends to japanese ppl ^^"said under dumb little mackie ^^

[Jean-Francois]

I have noticed that in Japan, even between "friends" (or "best-friends" !) it is considered normal to pay for the services they do for you, as if they were strangers.

Children are also expected to pay some very expensive presents to their parents around 20 years old, to (partly) pay back what they have spent for their upbringing.

inter-personal relations in Japan are based mainly on money

If this is true, I think I should seriously consider learning Japanese and move to Japan one day, especially when I have children. Hmmm... no wonder I get along with Japanese people so well... Great minds really think alike! And I never try to understand them. For what?

[cricket]

Hmmm,have to agree with Maciamo's comments. I have many Japanese
friends and really some close ones,but my best friend is a Korean born and
bred in China,now married to a Japanese and living here.

Hara watte,hanasou. The Japanese use this phrase a lot but no comparison
with the real thing.I think it has something to do with culture/kokumin sei.

My Chinese friend,by the way,is going back to China and will try to reestablish
herself again there.She was a doctor there but can't practice her profession
here.She came here seven years ago and now she's going back,citing work,family and loneliness. She doesn't have a kid with her Japanese
husband.

[Kana_Star]

I've gotten the closest you can get to them: A boyfriend and future husband.





:gohan:

[Jean-Francois]

Many of my J-friends kept saying that they were lonely too. I usually just ignored what they said because I thought they were just saying it out of boredom. One J-friend got so lonely that she had to come to my apartment and listened to "Can you celebrate?" fifty times a night.

I was just kidding when I said I would move to Japan. But seriously, I don't find J-people difficult to get close. Actually the ones I knew were pretty straight-forward with their feelings.

In this forum, many people wrote something like "Japanese people are passive" which was different from what I had experienced. There were two J-girls living in my building and they would take the first move to talk to me and ask me to go sing Karaoke at the Japanese Cultural Center (or something like that) with them. (But I didn't go because of personal reasons). And when I went to this store two months ago, one Japanese salesgirl gave me her phone number and told me to call her when I go to Niagara Fall next time. (Well, I am a frequent customer...)

All of them are trying to practise their English? Or they just want to make friends?

[Kana_Star]

I find j-people easy to talk to. They are really open with their feeling and they are really cool. I think what you need are new j-friends.

[Elizabeth]

I can almost understand number 1. But I don't think I could ever make myself believe number 2...
I dare say if I were a Japanese man working 80-85 hour weeks or his wife at home with the kids all day I wouldn't be spending my two week vacation talking politics, religion or literature either....Or putting a lot of thought/ reading into analyzing my foreign friend's emotional state for that matter.
:sorry: For Japanese-Japanese there is a tendancy of course to paper over unpleasant episodes or emotions in a relationship and put on a veneer which may be stressful to maintain at times and may aggrevate this sense of loneliness, inauthenticity or alienation. The ones I've known well tend to be much more sensitive and interested in knowing my thoughts and feelings than might be apparent in the beginning, although they expect respect and appropriate behavior from me certainly as a basis for this -- not being given to "waiting out" difficult times (maturation, growing pains, midlife crisis etc) a partner may be undergoing. And I'm not one for halfheartedly clinging or hanging on to a relationship that has cooled or of unnaturally working to rekindle dead flames, either. So it obviously depends on the outsider's own needs and perspective as to whether they will find rapport or not. A state of intense emotional invovlement and passion can be as much a barrier to understanding and acceptance as their concentration on more practical affairs, which all of us can readily appreciate and participate in (ie sex and money) as a way of strengthening group bonds and bringing everyone together on common ground. :cool:

[Daniel]

I think it impossible to make general assumptions about the japanese. I have experienced both the superficial and the very deep and open and my opinion is that japanese are just as different as british or danish or american or german or whatever else people.

[cacawate]

I honestly can't believe nobody has said 'beer' yet.

[Uncle Frank]

friend for a male in the 54 years of my life was Japanese.
Ikeda Shin was the brother I never had. We worked togeather & shared an apartment for over a year with many other friends.I don't think there were many times we were togeather we weren't discusing our lives and exchanging ideas and feelings. I still regret losing touch with him and his brother Toshibo in Fukuoka;been 30 years since I last talked to him, but I think of him often!
He was only one of many Japanese that accepted me as part of their families.I still feel Japanese are by far the most wonderful people in the world and they hold a special place in my heart!

Frank

:-)

[nuovo]

2) It could be that the average Japanese do not have such deep feelings (how try to restrict them ??). I see with my wife, in-laws and friends that their every concerns are very simple (eat, get money, sex, hot bath...). It is very deeply rooted in their mentality. Even when travelling, most Japanese only care about food, beaches or shopping. The best way to see in is opening a Japanese guide-book, which is very detailed for food and massage, but the culture, history, economy, politics, arts and religion sections, indispensable parts of any Lonely Planet, Rough Guide or Let's Go guidebook, is so-to-say absent of similar Japanese guidebooks (like the yellow 地球の歩き方). My point is, most Japanese are satisfied with drinking, eating, smoking and chatting with their friends, and do not see the need to discuss more meaningful things, be it reflecting on their life, discuss politics, or analyze the latest literary publications.

I do not know about the Japanese but many people in Asia are satisfied with very simple things. I don't know if it's due to the school system but most are not interested and know very little about geography, history, politics, and are completely bored if we talk about serious matters.

Example of a tour group organized for Asians: Europe in 12 days, 5 countries! Eating is a VERY important part of the tour... You make them eat any European food for a few days, they hate it! They need their own food!

They visit places, walk around, take pictures with their friends in front of monuments. You do not tell them a thing about the architecture or history of the place, no big deal! For them, good food and many laughs are the main ingredients for a good tour...

[orochi]

I think that a wall will exist until you have gained a farly proficient level in Japanese. For the average Japanese person, English skills are not that high and even if they are decent, it is difficult to express yourself in a foreign language (let alone in your native one!). As my Japanese skills have grown here in Japan, so has my relationships with Japanese people gotten deeper. If they feel that they can express themselves in Japanese and that you can understand it, it will definitely make them more open. As long as you have any kind of language barrier between you, that barrier can and will often extend to a relationship barrier.

[Maciamo]

I find j-people easy to talk to. They are really open with their feeling and they are really cool.

Can't agree more with that. The first approach is usually much easier with Japanese than most other nationalities for me too (no wonder I was already talking and playing cards with Japanese while travelling around India or Australia). The point is, they are very friendly, respectful, sociable and not too judgmental (although they have quite a few stereotypes regarding foreigners, which they do not hesitate to tell you in the face to see if it's true).

The problem I thought was raised in this thread is what it takes to get real Japanese friends. Not just friends or acquaintances, as this is very easy, but friends with whom you can share your passions, re-think the world, make big projects, trust in your entreprises, rely on when you have real problems, or feel you really understand each others before even uttering a word. This kind of friend is (more) difficult to find among the Japanese, in my experience. The nearest I've come to that was for "re-thinking the world" and "feeling we understand each others perfectly", and it is probably limited to 2 people, both men, and both well-educated and (about 10 and 15 years) older than me. In both cases, I could say that they lack the passion or enthusiasm of Westerners.

Incidentally, I haven't met a single (intellectually) mature Japanese under 30, and those above who are are still rare (many never become adults, to the sense I understand it).


Example of a tour group organized for Asians: Europe in 12 days, 5 countries! Eating is a VERY important part of the tour... You make them eat any European food for a few days, they hate it! They need their own food!

Well, Japanese like trying food from all over the world and usually appreciate it (except older people).


They visit places, walk around, take pictures with their friends in front of monuments. You do not tell them a thing about the architecture or history of the place, no big deal! For them, good food and many laughs are the main ingredients for a good tour...

Same for Japanese. Whenever I ask someone who was their trip/holiday abroad, 90% of the time (no exageration), the first and almost only thing I hear is about the food (ah, yeah, and the weather). I am yet to meet a Japanese who will tell me about what they learnt about the culture or history of the country they visited. What is it with some East Asian countries that they only care about food (and sex or massage) ? It can't be that the education system is so similar in Thailand and Japan ?! Close cultural affinities ? Go and tell the Japanese that they are culturally close to other Asians (esp. South-East Asians) !

[Mike Cash]

This is kind of a big question, and I'm going to hope it doesn't sound like a racist insult.

I have been around a good number of men and women from Japan, only gotten to really know one or two, but only to a certain extent. There is always a "wall" I guess. The most recent person, it was difficult to even maintain a friendship type of relationship, due to the fact they always had something else to do. Only many months later would they even mention doing something, and even that didn't seem to be the case.

I guess I'm wondering if this wall will always be there. If you can ever get past the cultural barriers and just "talk about anything." I'm sure this seems a bit of a silly question, but I'm still very lost in a lot of the culture and reasons, and probably always will be. It seems that I can be told how special of a friend or person I am, but then... I don't even hear from them again.

I guess I just don't understand... :souka:

Some of us actually manage to get too close and end up with little 3000 gram biology experiments on our hands.

[Maciamo]

I think that a wall will exist until you have gained a farly proficient level in Japanese. For the average Japanese person, English skills are not that high and even if they are decent, it is difficult to express yourself in a foreign language (let alone in your native one!). As my Japanese skills have grown here in Japan, so has my relationships with Japanese people gotten deeper. If they feel that they can express themselves in Japanese and that you can understand it, it will definitely make them more open. As long as you have any kind of language barrier between you, that barrier can and will often extend to a relationship barrier.

I don't feel the same way. I speak Japanese everyday at home. My level is good enough to read Japanese books or watch movies in Japanese (I even watched a Chinese movie reading the Japanese subtitles). But that doesn't change anything compared to talking to people who speak fairly good English (TOEIC 900+). I think that personality, interest and similitudes in the way of thinking are more important factors in understand each others, especially when in comes to serious (politics, economy...) and important (marriage, education...) matters.

That doesn't change my opinion that a very sizeable number of Japanese, especially outside the well-educated business elite of central Tokyo, are shallow.

Some of us actually manage to get too close and end up with little 3000 gram biology experiments on our hands.

I think that "close" only meant in the way of thinking, understanding each others and sharing deep feelings or ideas, not physically (which anyone can do, whatever the culture :sorry: ).

[RockLee]

It also seems that J-girls sometimes don't have experienced the relation between boys-girls like westerners do...when I knew my Japanese friend for 2 months..she told me she never had any convo's with a boy like she had with me before...that was a total new experience for her, and she seems to like it :-)...is it true that J-girls/boys don't communicate a lot like us westerners do ? :?

[Mike Cash]

I think that "close" only meant in the way of thinking, understanding each others and sharing deep feelings or ideas, not physically (which anyone can do, whatever the culture :sorry: ).

Hint: I was implying getting "close" enough to get married and have children.

I had forgotten that out-of-wedlock birth has become the norm and that no one could reasonably be expected to get it. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

Dittos on the shallow thingy, by the way. I couldn't agree more.

[ippolito]

This is my experience.....
I am italian an many years ago I was in Spain a visited a dojo.....all the spanish
invited me to train with them....I was a brown belt in Karate...and the jp sensei
was a godan in Shotokai....I was happy to train with a jp Sensei directly even another style...it was great for me....and many times we all went to have a beer together with Sensei. One day during a sanbon....some technics in couple...
he showed me a kind of technic and he gave me a very hard punch in the abdone.
There were no reasons...i did anything or sayd anything to make his humor change
just received and get in the floor as I wasn't ready it wasn't a sparring or kumite
I never understood him and why.
Most of jp I met in Tokyo very kind but it is not easy to understand what they think about you...more they have contacts with western world....more you can understand a little better....in Rome were I live sometime I help japaneses to find a road on the map...and they are happy to find a person gentle like them and available to spend some time and to be helpful with them.

[Emoni]

Thank you very much guys for all this info. It is appreciated, however lost I still am and probably always will be :)

[Elizabeth]

It also seems that J-girls sometimes don't have experienced the relation between boys-girls like westerners do...when I knew my Japanese friend for 2 months..she told me she never had any convo's with a boy like she had with me before...that was a total new experience for her, and she seems to like it :-)...is it true that J-girls/boys don't communicate a lot like us westerners do ? :?
What kinds of conversations were you having ? A lot of j-to j communication does tend to be nonverbal. If a wife never complains or gets sulky about cooking every night, a husband probably won't ask if she likes it or not. Likewise a wife who has never been to their husband's office (most in the case I know) is less apt to ask about work when they get home. Two different worlds and ways of life. But the relatively mature ones seem to appreciate very much a Westerners interest in more serious topics -- their work, religion, Japanese history, lifestyles etc.

Whatever the connection between having intellectual hobbies, strong emotional development and being a real friend.... :? If two people both have the sense of sharing an honest, intimate bond over a substantial period of time, who is to say they aren't true friends ? even in a culture where that might not be valued as highly as everyone acting their part to maintain group harmony.

[Maciamo]

Hint: I was implying getting "close" enough to get married and have children.


The allusion to the 3kg child at birth was evident, but why the hell do you need to get married for that ? Ah, yeah, true, that Japanese government doesn't recognise the father if the couple isn't married, even after a DNA test. Primitive thinking really. :okashii:


Whatever the connection between having intellectual hobbies, strong emotional development and being a real friend.... :? If two people both have the sense of sharing an honest, intimate bond over a substantial period of time, who is to say they aren't true friends ?

Personally, I can't consider someone as a true friend without what I mentioned above. But I understand that some people can be contented much more easily. Good for them. If two people can spend their life together with completely different lifestyles and without caring about what the other does at work, at home or their hobbies, and are satisfied with just being together, with any form of meaningful conversation, then so be it - but that is not what I wish for.

[kirei_na_me]

Personally, I can't consider someone as a true friend without what I mentioned above. But I understand that some people can be contented much more easily. Good for them. If two people can spend their life together with completely different lifestyles and without caring about what the other does at work, at home or their hobbies, and are satisfied with just being together, with any form of meaningful conversation, then so be it - but that is not what I wish for.

Exactly. I feel the same way. Of course, that comes as no surprise, I guess.

I've participated in this same type of discussion so many times that I am just tired of it.

[Elizabeth]

The allusion to the 3kg child at birth was evident, but why the hell do you need to get married for that ? Ah, yeah, true, that Japanese government doesn't recognise the father if the couple isn't married, even after a DNA test. Primitive thinking really. :okashii:



Personally, I can't consider someone as a true friend without what I mentioned above. But I understand that some people can be contented much more easily. Good for them. If two people can spend their life together with completely different lifestyles and without caring about what the other does at work, at home or their hobbies, and are satisfied with just being together, with any form of meaningful conversation, then so be it - but that is not what I wish for.
It isn't for me, either, and if Enomi's question real interest why this Japanese faux friend was giving him the brush-off so polite and elaborately, well....just try asking more directly next time. :p

[Emoni]

Sometimes I'm just not good at direct... and when indirect I don't make sense. A curse.

Thanks for putting up with it though guys. :) When you're confused, it's hard to know what to ask sometimes.

[lacon]

this is a great discussion. i have a jap girlfriend and most of the time i need to drain my brain juices to know what she is thinking (and fail).

enomi-san, i guess you are never alone in this dilenma :-)

oh yah, been a south east asian myself, i think eating is one of the most enjoyable way of life. personally, i like to try delicious crusines and go around sight-seeing but i am just simply not interested in the history of some places. :relief:

[ippolito]

My wife is korean and I understand her like an open book....but jp and kr are different in this case....

[cricket]

There is always a "wall" I guess. The most recent person, it was difficult to even maintain a friendship type of relationship, due to the fact they always had something else to do. Only many months later would they even mention doing something, and even that didn't seem to be the case.

My two yen thought:
The Japanese are not straightforward people.They say YES with a smile on their lips when in fact it means,I'm sorry,NO.This is to avoid being rude or to hurt the other party's feelings.You have to learn to read between the lines as there is always a honne (real thoughts or intention) and tatemae (a front).

I guess I'm wondering if this wall will always be there. If you can ever get past the cultural barriers and just "talk about anything." I'm sure this seems a bit of a silly question, but I'm still very lost in a lot of the culture and reasons, and probably always will be. It seems that I can be told how special of a friend or person I am, but then... I don't even hear from them again.


My opinion:
Maintaining contacts here is quite bothesome.You can't just go to that friend's house unannounced as that is considered inconsiderate.There is a sort of policy that you have to call first and agree to a date.You can't go there without bringing something.And it's considered strange if you talk about too personal or deep topics.To be able to talk in a deeper level,it has to be over sake/beer,and not in the house.Most of my friends are longtime neighbors,mothers of my kids' friends and classmates who,whether we like it or not,have to meet on some sort of regular basis because of the same interest and situation we are all in.

I also have some friends who I meet only once or twice a year for coffee or lunch and been going on for 20 years.One is a university teacher who taught me how to read and write katakana and hiragana..We always meet before obon and have a long long talk over lunch. (^^)

[kirei_na_me]

I have tried to make friends with Japanese people, both men and women over the years, and it never seems to develop into the kind of relationship I want/need. Only one person out of many have I been able to form a real bond with. Too superficial for my taste. I just keep coming back to my plain ol' Western homies... :p

[remember_august]

"Does anyone know how to make friends with Japanese people? Why is it so hard to make friends?"asked little Mackie >.<

[Mike Cash]

"Does anyone know how to make friends with Japanese people? Why is it so hard to make friends?"asked little Mackie >.<

The hard thing isn't making friends. The hard thing is finding some commonality to base a friendship on. "You're Japanese and I'm interested in Japanese people and things" usually isn't enough by itself.

[PaulTB]

The hard thing isn't making friends. The hard thing is finding some commonality to base a friendship on. "You're Japanese and I'm interested in Japanese people and things" usually isn't enough by itself.
Not even if you've proved it by memorising every Card Captor Sakura script and winning prizes for anime song karaoke ?

[Mike Cash]

Not even if you've proved it by memorising every Card Captor Sakura script and winning prizes for anime song karaoke ?

Especially if you have done that.

[byp]

I have tried to make friends with Japanese people, both men and women over the years, and it never seems to develop into the kind of relationship I want/need. Only one person out of many have I been able to form a real bond with. Too superficial for my taste. I just keep coming back to my plain ol' white(American and European) folks... :p
ah !
this is most difficult to say...
I must chose my words carefully, not to make you (and others) understand something I do not wish to say or do not wish to imply. I have read some of your threads Kirei na me, and you make a lot of sense. On this one I'm a little lost...
furthermore (as you might have noticed) english is NOT my mother tongue.
so I hope I'm not making a booboo here...

why did you precisely precise : "ol' white (american & european) folks", so excluding a very large part of the US population, with the same education & patriotic background as you, yourself, have received ?
why did you not say : "ol' american folks..." including as well your numerous countrymen of african origins ?

Does this mean, for you, that being a white human being, it is difficult to understand (and therefore get close enough to be friend) another human being with a different colored skin ?

Therefore it is difficult for any white person to understand any "other skin colored" person and vice versa ?

I do not believe that it is what you meant since (if I have read this forum rightly) you are married with a J-man ? Or is it what you meant and then it will mean you are / must be extremely unhappy not able to understand and make friend with your husband ?

I don't know what to understand and therefore don't know what to say. As I mentionned before somewhere else in this forum, ( ) I have been lucky enough to know, meet and make friend (and even lot closer) with Japanese, Chinese, Korean and many others, without difficulties. I don't really see where the problem is, excepted that WE might be the source of difficulties by our attitude, or we might well be the ground on wich we build the so called wall some are talking about further up.

If one is not prepared to understand and ACCEPT the difference that is bound to exist, then of course we might be all wrong.

If we expect a Japanese and an Inuit and a Chilian to be the same as an US american or a Swedish, then of course we will get into what is called a lack of understanding. How deep will this incomprehension be is a matter of one's education and open mindness.

Yes, as an european of long descent (see signature) I am aware of a difference, and I will accept it gratefully since I will always learn something usefull for myself or for others.

Yes I will repsect whatever difference there is, and I will not judge by my own standards, but rather try to put myself in the other's place. Most of the time it works.

[Mike Cash]

Regarding your sig.....that was me who called you a shallow, narrow-minded racist ass

No need to beat around the bush. If you want it known that I made such a comment, then come right out and say it.

[PaulTB]

Regarding your sig.....that was me who called you a shallow, narrow-minded racist ass
Though to be fair a more technically accurate description might be "A shallow, narrow-minded ass with a fetish for asians."

[byp]

Regarding your sig.....that was me who called you a shallow, narrow-minded racist ass

No need to beat around the bush. If you want it known that I made such a comment, then come right out and say it.
good boy !
you could have said it directly and " come out and say it "

Now, what is YOUR problem ???

Though to be fair a more technically accurate description might be "A shallow, narrow-minded ass with a fetish for asians."
yep, that seems more accurate
:D
but then, you'r out of topic, and I suggest you both write to me, you can do so through privat mail :note:
no need to bother others with your children's behaviour.
I'll go and change my signature. :love: :rose: :confetti: :jama:

[Ewok85]

Just cause your caucasian doesnt exclude you from being a "shallow, narrow-minded racist ass".

And your thread up above just highlights that. I think what kireiname was trying to highlight was Japanese-Americans.

[byp]

Just cause your caucasian doesnt exclude you from being a "shallow, narrow-minded racist ass".
you forgot the "fetish" bit, mate !... LOL :D

I think in your place I would abstain to give lessons about racism... you are in a bad spot...

And your thread up above just highlights that. I think what kireiname was trying to highlight was Japanese-Americans.
go back and read carefully.
maybe you'll end up by understanding what was said.
or maybe not...
which, of course, is of no importance whatsoever... :D

[Mike Cash]

good boy !
you could have said it directly and " come out and say it "

Now, what is YOUR problem ???




The very first time I noticed it in your sig, I did come out and say it. Or didn't you notice that?

The only problem I have is the character flaw of not being one to suffer fools gladly.

[kirei_na_me]

byp, you took my comment way too far. I was just saying it that way to be silly(as a joke). It's not that I exclude other races as friends. That's not the case at all. It just turns out that my closest friends have always been "Western". I should've said "Western folk" instead of "white folk". You're going way too far with what I said. A total misinterpretation.

The kind of relationships I desire, I have not been able to obtain with Japanese people. Sorry. That's the way it is. It's not like I haven't been around numerous Japanese people. I have.

Oh, and I changed that post...hehe

And am I missing something about the signature? :?

[PaulTB]

And am I missing something about the signature? :?
Only that you missed it. You can probably deduce it's prior contents by considering this thread.

[Elizabeth]

The hard thing isn't making friends. The hard thing is finding some commonality to base a friendship on. "You're Japanese and I'm interested in Japanese people and things" usually isn't enough by itself.
My two Japanese bosom companion experiences have been rooted variously in 1)coinciding areas of professional study and interests 2) a feeling of personal compatiblity, fascination with Japanese, finding someone I can always learn from, trust of the people and their loyalty to friends....and of course other things to top these off. :relief:

[kirei_na_me]

Only that you missed it. You can probably deduce it's prior contents by considering this thread.

Yes, I guess I can imagine what it said. I am guessing that it was something just as bad, or maybe even worse, than the statement I made in my post above.

[byp]

byp, you took my comment way too far. I was just saying it that way to be silly(as a joke). It's not that I exclude other races as friends. That's not the case at all. It just turns out that my closest friends have always been "Western". I should've said "Western folk" instead of "white folk". You're going way too far with what I said. A total misinterpretation.
Then I will humbly apologize, because I read what I read... And I thought it was some kind of a serious discussion, which apparently it was not... Please, Ms, accept my sincere excuses for misunderstanding the whole thing.

The kind of relationships I desire, I have not been able to obtain with Japanese people. Sorry. That's the way it is. It's not like I haven't been around numerous Japanese people. I have.
you dont have to be sorry, I can very well understand that. it looks like mikecash, paulTB and ewok85 dont get along with me, so it has nothing to do with Japanese not going along well with the rest of the world (or the other way round...).LOL. But, finally, they are nicer than what they want to show...

And am I missing something about the signature? :? no, the story behind the signature was that "someone" sent me an anonymous message saying that I was a "shallow, narrow-minded racist ass". I just asked, in this signature, that whoever wrote that just come into the open. And he did. And that is all and the end of the story. Therefore I changed my signature back to what it was originally.

[Ewok85]

Hah, that someone has already said that they did it and I think they did it out on the public forums.... bah, wheres a wall i can bash my head against for a while?

[RockLee]

Hah, that someone has already said that they did it and I think they did it out on the public forums.... bah, wheres a wall i can bash my head against for a while?
hmm mate...he DID say he knows about it?! :relief: (see red highlighted text)

no, the story behind the signature was that "someone" sent me an anonymous message saying that I was a "shallow, narrow-minded racist ass". I just asked, in this signature, that whoever wrote that just come into the open. And he did. And that is all and the end of the story. Therefore I changed my signature back to what it was originally.

But anyways...this is an EXAMPLE of a LANGUAGE BARRIER??He didn't quite get what kirei meant...I think with ppl from another country this happens often and might be at the base of problems sometimes.Like when a Japanese person doesn't talk English 100%, he doesn't feel like he can have an OPEN convo maybe?(this was mentioned before) :?

[kirei_na_me]

But anyways...this is an EXAMPLE of a LANGUAGE BARRIER??He didn't quite get what kirei meant...I think with ppl from another country this happens often and might be at the base of problems sometimes.Like when a Japanese person doesn't talk English 100%, he doesn't feel like he can have an OPEN convo maybe?(this was mentioned before) :?

Well, surely the language barrier causes problems, but the Japanese are not into "open" conversations generally. Japanese are very careful about what they say as a (general) rule, therefore, not opening up much, if at all. They are so concerned with what other people think, that they will usually not let their true feelings be known. Anyone who has experience with Japanese people knows that. My husband's English speaking ability is not perfect, but somehow, when he's pushed to the breaking point, he can convey his message perfectly using English.

It's something you have to be around to understand. It's something you have to sense, really. There's no way to explain it.

[byp]

But anyways...this is an EXAMPLE of a LANGUAGE BARRIER??He didn't quite get what kirei meant...I think with ppl from another country this happens often and might be at the base of problems sometimes.Like when a Japanese person doesn't talk English 100%, he doesn't feel like he can have an OPEN convo maybe?(this was mentioned before) :?
language barrier ?
It could be, but no, not in this case.
it's just a lack of knowledge of a particular person and his/her way of thinking, his/her sense of humour...
I did not pay enough attention to the background... I should have known better.
specially when one deals in a language that one is not used to, which is my case with english.
anyway RockLee, thanks.

.... bah, wheres a wall i can bash my head against for a while?
corner of King William & Flinders, downtown, is just as good a place as any other, if you really want to bash your head. But it's not worth it. Really !!

[Emoni]

Well, I do think the language barrier goes beyond simply just being able to speak the language. You can know every single word in Japanese, or English and you still might not be able to communicate at all. There is so much said that is non-verbal that if this isn't included, you will never get by. Some examples were that when someone who is Japanese says yes, but they really mean no. If you don't pick up on this, then no matter how "clear" they spoke the word "Yes" it really doesn't matter, because neither people is communicating correctly.

I think this is one of the biggest problems I'm going to have if I continue with Japanese Language study.

[Elizabeth]

Well, I do think the language barrier goes beyond simply just being able to speak the language. You can know every single word in Japanese, or English and you still might not be able to communicate at all. There is so much said that is non-verbal that if this isn't included, you will never get by.
This is a serious drawback of relying solely on email as well. Case in point, you ask a good friend a reasonable favor on an important issue, they don't respond, you worry a few days trying to let it pass sure your Japanese has been fuzzy or illogical, call them up and "Well, yes of course I can do that" .... as if it were beneath their dignity to even justify your insensitivity in ever doubting it to begin with. :D

[Emoni]

Yup, I've learned the hard way about email... hehe

[kirei_na_me]

Yes, email is hard for anyone. Even for native speakers of the same language.

[Elizabeth]

Yes, email is hard for anyone. Even for native speakers of the same language.
That's true, but at least the ones I know tend to treat email like they would any written Japanese, much more formally than comes across in person or over the phone. While it seems English speakers tend more to write pretty much as they speak.

[Saria]

I have a problem of a the same nature but diffrent colture. he's Chinese. for the most part it isn't too hard to talk to him. but because his Einglish isn't too good somethings are hard to talk about. he said he would tell me anytging I asked. but somethethings I think he is eather afraid to tell me or just doesn't want to. because I'll ask him something & he won't tell me. but something will come up later & he'll tell me. Oro :mad: some times I just don't get that guy... but given the surcomstances I really can't complane.... too much

[akaisha]

Maybe he doesn't know how to answer the question at the particular momment in time?

[Golgo_13]

If the person you're having a hard time communicating was overweight, would this topic be "Can you ever get truly close to someone who is FAT"?

[Emoni]

Golgo, I didn't mean for the thread to be racist or cruel in anyway. If I ended up doing that in the end, I'm sorry.

I was mostly trying to figure things out that I probably never will be able to, and was trying to see if there was some sort of cultural barrier I just didn't pick up on, or find out more of relationship barriers that might exist in Japanese culture that do not in American culture. I'm still very ignorant of Japanese culture and behavior. There were no evil intentions behind this post, I promise.

It probably was me all along anyway. Please don't be mad at me for this topic, you helped so much when I was making that scroll I didn't mean to offend you.

[Golgo_13]

The fact that there ALREADY are plenty of happy Japanese (of either gender)+American couples out there shows that it's his personality rather than his culture.

To think that it's his culture assumes that everyone in his culture is the same way. I happen to be from the same culture as the person in question who has a hard time communicating--yet it doesn't mean I have the same problem.

[Emoni]

Ya... deep down I knew that, but it still didn't explain everything so I kept looking. When you don't feel good it is very hard to think clearly sometimes.

I guess I just needed to see it in black and white (or red and white with the forum colors I have set).

I hope you aren't too mad at me.

[Elizabeth]

The fact that there ALREADY are plenty of happy Japanese (of either gender)+American couples out there shows that it's his personality rather than his culture.

To think that it's his culture assumes that everyone in his culture is the same way. I happen to be from the same culture as the person in question who has a hard time communicating--yet it doesn't mean I have the same problem.
No, but reading the posts of people who have had problems establishing Japanese relationships the same issues tend to come up over and over. You don't find any members complaining their partners are too argumentative, domineering, snobbish, vulgar, effeminate or whatever. And one perspective on this prism is simply that they are too superficial or pleasure-seeking, for some tastes. Of course not prematurely trusting our own experience we could still do threads like this for Americans and all other ethnicities/nationalities to be absolutely sure these are reliable and valid comparisons. :p

[Emoni]

I guess the biggest thing is that when you have someone from a different culture, you take on an extra factor in how you consider their actions. At least that was the case for me, however incorrect I was half the time.

Especially if you don't entirely understand the culture that the person comes from. Someone who is American I would simply have experience and judge the behavior I saw. However, someone who is from a different country I would not be so quite to judge simply because there is the cultural differences. Not bad or good, but a hazed glass window that can make it more difficult to tell what type of person you are dealing with.

Add on 10,000,000 other factors that are going on at the same time, and you get one confusing mess, and 1 confused post. :)

[cricket]

I don't think the title or the contents of the thread is racist or offending at all,Emoni.This is a forum about Japan and it's people and culture and I think it's a good way or chance to discuss the culture, analyze,compare,argue and learn.Nothing wrong with it as long as discussed wholeheartedly.I think I'll be the first one to withdraw if something cruel or offending is being said. :relief:
I thought it's a good way to convey first hand experiences/opinions to those who loves Japan but never been here or stayed long enough to know things simply Japanese just as there are things I'm sure simply Americans or simply African things.

[Ewok85]

...is simply that they are too superficial or pleasure-seeking...

[Elizabeth]

I guess the biggest thing is that when you have someone from a different culture, you take on an extra factor in how you consider their actions. At least that was the case for me, however incorrect I was half the time.

Especially if you don't entirely understand the culture that the person comes from. Someone who is American I would simply have experience and judge the behavior I saw.
You really do just need to go there and observe the social machinary in action to truly appreciate these differences, Emoni. Americans brought up in the talk show tradition of trying to understand situations by analyzing their partner's underlying motives, empathizing with their deepest feelings, past history, personality, etc. will find themselves in a state of deep disbelief because these are simply not at all important factors to most Japanese people. Things I also would have thought unbelievably inconsiderate or crude my first time out now have a bit more context and are (almost) perfectly understandable :).

[nekosasori]

I think it's possible to get to know someone whether they're open to it emotionally or not. In fact, having met lots of (non-Japanese) people who apparently lack self-awareness, I understand their underlying motives and values without their even realizing what they are themselves, or their talking about it.

I also think that as influential as culture is to someone's default behaviour, ultimately it's their personality and how much they value privacy that determines how close they let someone in, which is irrespective of cultural background.

Finally, I understand that though verbal communication may not have been as traditionally encouraged in Japan compared with many western countries, it's the quality of said communication that matters in the long run, not how many words are strung together and voiced. That's why I don't see the point of pub culture in Ireland - everyone talks, and a lot at that, but I haven't gathered any meaningful exchanges so far despite several attempts to talk with dozens of people. Just shooting the breeze is, in my view, an utter waste of time.

[Emoni]

I plan to go through a study abroad program for my Major in Japan. I'm looking foward to it, but it won't be for at least a year. I'm hoping that I'll learn much more by being in the country than just "reading about it" from books. However, I want to get my language skills high enough so I can learn as much as possible by being there, not just look at the pretty flashing kanji signs.

[Elizabeth]

I plan to go through a study abroad program for my Major in Japan. I'm looking foward to it, but it won't be for at least a year. I'm hoping that I'll learn much more by being in the country than just "reading about it" from books. However, I want to get my language skills high enough so I can learn as much as possible by being there, not just look at the pretty flashing kanji signs.
And if they offer semester long courses, in Tokyo? Osaka? that might be smarter than commiting for year before you find out whether it's really your cup of tea or not. :relief:

[Jean-Francois]

Sometimes I don't even understand myself. Therefore, I don't expect myself to understand others throughly.

Why don't Orientals talk about their feelings as much? e.g. Saying stuffs like I love you, I miss you & etc. It's because they think TALK IS CHEAP !

[Emoni]

The program goes by semesters. No worries.

As for the talk is cheap thing, yes I heard that too. I consider it cheap as well unless I know the person. Then I go by past actions, then it means something. So I CAN understand that to some degree.

[Areku]

Not as close as if they spoke fluent English.

[noodle]

i have read that some japanese believe that only other japanese can truly understand them. thus foreigners supposedly can't truly assimilate into their culture because they were born foreigners, period. and thus ethnic japanese who were not born on the mainland may be expected to just jump right into the culture though they weren't raised there. but it may be a case where believing in something makes it true. perhaps if you don't feel like other people (non-japanese, people who aren't your religion, whatever) can ever understand you, you forget to make an effort to be understood.

silence is also an important part of japanese communication, and that's something that's usually difficult to understand, when you're raised in a culture where silence is awkward.

[Elizabeth]

i have read that some japanese believe that only other japanese can truly understand them. thus foreigners supposedly can't truly assimilate into their culture because they were born foreigners, period. and thus ethnic japanese who were not born on the mainland may be expected to just jump right into the culture though they weren't raised there. but it may be a case where believing in something makes it true. perhaps if you don't feel like other people (non-japanese, people who aren't your religion, whatever) can ever understand you, you forget to make an effort to be understood.
I don't recommend passing as Japanese to find an intimate relationship for several reasons, but mainly they aren't likely going to make any concessions to Western ways and the novelty is going to wear off pretty quickly. Foreigners either have to have the temperment for it or not and there has to be something else besides Japan as a justification.

[kirei_na_me]

Amen, Elizabeth.

I've said numerous times that an intercultural relationship can't be taken lightly. I'm sorry, but it's true. It's reality.

What makes different cultures, anyway? It's true that every culture has characteristics to make it unique. Those characteristics include everything from what they eat to what they wear to their skills to their ideas and how they communicate. If the Japanese were just like us, well, they wouldn't be another culture. One shouldn't go around blasting broad stereotypes, but there are things people of a particular group have in common that make them unique compared to others. That's how we get different cultures. Right?

[Golgo_13]

I don't recommend passing as Japanese to find an intimate relationship for several reasons, but mainly they aren't likely going to make any concessions to Western ways and the novelty is going to wear off pretty quickly. Foreigners either have to have the temperment for it or not and there has to be something else besides Japan as a justification.

What's "passing"? I only know the term as used in football. :p

Did you start dating your boyfriend for the "novelty"?

Do you suppose the Chinese, Koreans, Thais, Vietnamese, Indians, or the Bangladeshis would be more willing to make concessions to Western ways?

Could it also be possible that the Japanese have to have the temperament for dating Westerners?

Amen, Elizabeth.

I've said numerous times that an intercultural relationship can't be taken lightly. I'm sorry, but it's true. It's reality.

What makes different cultures, anyway? It's true that every culture has characteristics to make it unique. Those characteristics include everything from what they eat to what they wear to their skills to their ideas and how they communicate. If the Japanese were just like us, well, they wouldn't be another culture. One shouldn't go around blasting broad stereotypes, but there are things people of a particular group have in common that make them unique compared to others. That's how we get different cultures. Right?

Then why get involved with someone of a different culture (or race, for that matter) if you're gonna end up complaining about it?

[kirei_na_me]

Then why get involved with someone of a different culture (or race, for that matter) if you're gonna end up complaining about it?

Who's complaining? It's just reality.

[Golgo_13]

If reality is such that you find another culture so difficult to deal with, why get involved with someone of that culture?

We've already been through this so many times.

Blame the individual's personality before you blame an entire race, ethinicity, or culture of people.

[Elizabeth]

What makes different cultures, anyway? It's true that every culture has characteristics to make it unique. Those characteristics include everything from what they eat to what they wear to their skills to their ideas and how they communicate. If the Japanese were just like us, well, they wouldn't be another culture. One shouldn't go around blasting broad stereotypes, but there are things people of a particular group have in common that make them unique compared to others. That's how we get different cultures. Right?
And Japan is actually closer to a unique civilization historically than simply another culture, so you can't argue the magnitude of difference between Chinese, Japanese and Korean men is similar to that of Norway, Sweden and Finland for instance.
At any rate, the point isn't to have an academic argument. It's a matter of common sense, really. If you have been around as many people from a particular culture as Enomi apparently has and still don't feel that the good outweighs the bad, that they're lacking in something you need, or have a fundamental sense of rapport with enough of them to matter, it may not be worth wasting any more time on. Not that I ever understood the idea of a particular attraction to the people as an entire people to begin with....:confused:

Did you start dating your boyfriend for the "novelty"?
No, we were basically thrown together over a period of time and forced to get along, not to mention waaaay too serious and considerate of other people around us to fool around so half-heartedly. Basically, the person should be the foremost object of your interest, but that doesn't discount the culture that has formed them either. It's fair to say he's entirely different than any American man I've ever known....but just because he's Japanese doesn't mean I don't sometimes feel bored at his reticence and 13-14 hour work days plus weekend afternoons/evenings, more like a sister than a lover, impatient that it has taken nearly 2 years to completely relax together. For anyone who thinks dating a Japanese person is going to be a mind-altering or magical, sooooo different other-worldly experience....:D


Do you suppose the Chinese, Koreans, Thais, Vietnamese, Indians, or the Bangladeshis would be more willing to make concessions to Western ways?
I would consider the Chinese I've known to be much more down to earth, intellectual and interested in foreign cultures. I haven't had enough experience with the others to know, but I would imagine you'd find plenty of potential partners in developing countries who would make concessions to their culture for a chance to marry a Westerner and immigrate out. Besides remnants of decades/hundreds of years of colonialism and now multinational corporations already dot the landscape in most of those places.


Could it also be possible that the Japanese have to have the temperament for dating Westerners?
Yes, certainly. They have to be openminded and tolorant (nonjudgmental) as a start, which I think a lot of them are.

[Golgo_13]

It's a matter of common sense, really.

Thank you very much. Common sense dictates that if someone commits a crime, you blame the individual instead of his race, culture, ethnicity, etc.

Same thing with a person who doesn't quite behave in the way YOU'd like him to.

[Elizabeth]

Thank you very much. Common sense dictates that if someone commits a crime, you blame the individual instead of his race, culture, ethnicity, etc.

Same thing with a person who doesn't quite behave in the way YOU'd like him to.
I've personally never been one to complain or try changing these tendancies on anyone living Japan, you do have to take the good with the not so good and some people's personalities are going to exaserbate these cultural conflicts. On the other hand, even many Japanese will admit things like the people tend to be too easily embarrased, apologize too much, shy, restrained etc. I can't imagine anyone saying it is their partner's personality that causes them not to confess their love or apologize and bow to their superiors. How many Americans do you see acting like that after all ? :relief:

[kirei_na_me]

Not that I ever understood the idea of a particular attraction to the people as an entire people to begin with....

No kidding.

Yes, certainly. They have to be openminded and tolorant (nonjudgmental) as a start, which I think a lot of them are.

True. A Japanese person who has a relationship with a foreigner and lives in a country other than their own is very open-minded and very individualistic. They would have to be.

By the way, this is another thread that'll be locked if things continue to be taken personally and condescending remarks continue to be made. Emoni's already told me that I could put it out of its misery when and if I felt it necessary.

[RockLee]

Yeah we have quite a few members who feel BORED at some times....but I guess they like to argument a lot :blush:.Anyways...the people here should not take everything so personal all the time...it only makes life more miserable at times :okashii:

[cricket]

Sorry if we hurt some of you,guys. We have some Japanese members on this board and we keep on saying the Japanese that,the Japanese this,can't help though coz it's a forum for anything Japanese. Feeling defensive is understandable,just hope we can avoid personal attacks as it makes posting quite unpleasant at times.
Anyway,Emoni must be enlightened and satisfied by now.

[Golgo_13]

I can't imagine anyone saying it is their partner's personality that causes them not to confess their love or apologize and bow to their superiors.

You're amazing.

Why the hell not? There are shy Americans and there are gregarious ones--isn't that a difference in personality??? If they share the same culture, then what?

So, you still blame the person's culture for such behavior (to confess their love or apologize and bow to their superiors)?

[sima_yi]

what do I do if a japanese girl asks me to her bday party >.<? should I say, "let me think about it" or "yes, why not?" :(

[Saria]

If the person you're having a hard time communicating was overweight, would this topic be "Can you ever get truly close to someone who is FAT"?

:okashii: he isn't fat. we just aren't exactly close to each : other :bluush:

[jeisan]

depends on if you wanna go to her birthday party or not.

[sima_yi]

Yes I really want. But I read some of the posts; some members said that I should hide my 'true intension', but at the mean time I should express my 'true intension' =.=. I am going to buy her some books for birthday gifts.

[Saria]

go if you want & be yourself. but if your gonna be really pervy that usaly scares people away. so just do what you think is right

[sima_yi]

If I have any idea what I should do, I wouldn't ask any one of you guys >.<. I can't understand some of your words >.<

[Saria]

what language is it that you speack besies Einglish. sorry... just try & be yourself & give her something that you think she would like.

[PopCulturePooka]

Is she japanese or american-japanese?

Really though, either way you've been invited. Go.

[sima_yi]

hmmmm.....ok. I could just tell her directly that I really wanna go ^^. I think there is a song in Full Metal Alchemist called "Steady, Steady, GO ^^" lolz. Btw, she is japanese, she said she had been here for 4 years.

[PopCulturePooka]

hmmmm.....ok. I could just tell her directly that I really wanna go ^^. I think there is a song in Full Metal Alchemist called "Steady, Steady, GO ^^" lolz. Btw, she is japanese, she said she had been here for 4 years.
Four years? Plenty of time to get used to American cultural differences.

She invited you, so go. But don't be all like 'HOLY CRAP, OH MAN YEAH I REALLY WANNA GO. COOL THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!'.

Be casual. "sure, I'll be there. Anything I can do too help out?" is much better.

[jieshi]

my opinion: some people get close, others dont! You just need to keep chipping away at the sand stone to make a masterpiece ( or in this instance, a close friendship) and sometimes that can take a really long time

[Emoni]

I think the universal response to birthday party invitations is pretty much, "Sure I'll come, thanks for inviting me." Or "No I can't make it at that time, I'm sorry."

I could be wrong :P

[Elizabeth]

You're amazing.

Why the hell not? There are shy Americans and there are gregarious ones--isn't that a difference in personality??? If they share the same culture, then what?

So, you still blame the person's culture for such behavior (to confess their love or apologize and bow to their superiors)?
Obviously America is more culturally/ethnically mixed than Japan, but on the whole I'd say Americans tend to be more outgoing. Most Japanese I've talked to here will say the same thing. Of course it isn't going to apply to everyone -- but just the fact that there is a tendancy in one direction or another indicates a cultural not individual difference.
I also never said I minded Japanese not confessing their love, apologizing and bowing to their superiors. It isn't negative in my eyes. Neither is being quiet around strangers. Actually Japanese are quite sociable, so I don't like the term shy.

Therefore, a trait cannot be judged cultural or not depending on whether any one person thinks it is positive or negative. Culture cannot responsible for the positive and none of the negative. How strange would that be ? I think everyone can agree the tendancy for Japanese not to tell intimates they love them is stronger than with Americans. Of course some will differ on either side -- but if you approve of the Japanese not doing it as much (as I do), it is due to the culture ? And if you don't, it is because your partner in particular has a problem personality ? :?

[Saria]

well I know both me & him can be shy at times.... then again I'm spontanius to make up for it. well I guess what I'm trying to say is every one is diffrent. maybe your not getting along with these people because of your personality or theirs.

[Saing]

I think this is an interesting discussion, but perhaps no discussion will be capable to find an answer to a question like this. People are very different even within their own countries. Many of us might seem shy and quiet at first, but if you go to karaoke or a bar you can see a different side to the personality.

Many times I see comments in this forum saying "Japanese people are like this..."
Please! Do not think I am offended by this... Unless it is a rude comment! I understand that this is a forum to discuss the culture and personality of Japanese. But for example, if I made several comments saying "American people are like this...", some of you Americans would maybe agree and some others would maybe say "No I am not like that!" (I made a choice of Americans because there are many in this forum, but you could replace with British, French or any country. Do you understand?)

What I am meaning is, it is not possible to make a single comment thing about all the people of a single country. It cannot be correct about everybody. Japanese have many personality types and each person is different. At the best, this can only be general advice but cannot always be accurate for everyone.

If you want to date a Japanese, this is great! Go for it! Enjoy the differences in our personalities and cultures.

Sima-yi: If a Japanese girl asks you to go to a party. Just say yes if you want to go, or no if you don't want to go. We are human beings like you!

[Saria]

sorry if I offend any one here by my statments :sorry:

[Ewok85]

No one is offended, just saying ;)

But I love it when people read into things waaay to much and try to complicate matters more than it is to begin with. This is life people, not diplomacy at national level :D

[Elizabeth]

Comparing Japanese to each other, naturally the focus is on differences in personality since the culture remains the same. Comparing Japanese to Americans, the focus is on the difference in culture. Neither is more right or wrong than the other. As far as I can tell, there is also nothing particularly offensive or difficult to understand (or so it should seem) in either perspective.

[ippolito]

Comparing Japanese to each other, naturally the focus is on differences in personality since the culture remains the same. Comparing Japanese to Americans, the focus is on the difference in culture. Neither is more right or wrong than the other. As far as I can tell, there is also nothing particularly offensive or difficult to understand (or so it should seem) in either perspective.

We belong to different cultures habitudes....even there is lot of differences between american an european lifestyle....and between europeans...italian and spanish are similar in many things meanwhileuk irish and germans are more similar to americans...I visit Korea an Japan and there are many differences between them even tehy are both oriental
lands and near...and japanese invasion have gotten many things in Korea.

Koreans could let you understand easier what thay think than japanese.
They both (men) like soju and sake....also beer like americans and
nothern europe guys.
We prefer wine...as now we have the best wine in the world...even french
have reconized this year (the first time) the value of italian wine.
Most of us drink wine during meals not wthout food...but as everywere we also have our drunks.....but generally we do not drink so much like english or americans (beer wisky coctails etc...)
Even jp gastronomy it is very different than kr or chinese.
Events dress like kimono are so much different tan korean an chinese.
I have meet nice persons in Japan as in Korea...but sometime some were not so gentle.....but just in few cases.

[byp]

We prefer wine...as now we have the best wine in the world...even french
have reconized this year (the first time) the value of italian wine.
Most of us drink wine during meals not wthout food...but as everywere we also have our drunks.....but generally we do not drink so much like english or americans (beer wisky coctails etc...)it's not the first time. some italian wines are terrific since a long time and there are many specialties. but italy still has a lot of work to do to go and reach the levell of a mouton cadet or any other top bordeau or burgundy wines. but i agree with ippolito, italian wines are comming fast and i enjoy them a lot. so are many others such australian, californanian, south american.
eventually, it will reach japan, korea and china. anf then it will be one hell of a problem, since there are not enough winyards in the world to satisfy everybody.
water will be polluted, cows wont give enough milk...
what are we going to drink ???
HELP !!!!!!!!

[cricket]

We drink a lot of wine here in Japan. It's one of the popular items to give as a gift,too. I still have problems looking for my favorite wine,though. Have to go to the bigger stores (usually in the big cities) to buy one. But if you're not very choosy,they have wine in almost every liquor store or even the nearest convenience stores.

[byp]

We drink a lot of wine here in Japan. It's one of the popular items to give as a gift,too. I still have problems looking for my favorite wine,though. Have to go to the bigger stores (usually in the big cities) to buy one. But if you're not very choosy,they have wine in almost every liquor store or even the nearest convenience stores.yes, i know that !
but what i mean with "when japan, china and korea start consuming wine" I mean like in france, italy, spain, portugal, greece, you have breakfast with wine and garlic sausages and fresh loaf of bread. Then you end the day with a last glass before going to bed....
now, here we have real wine consuming.
wait for you turn to discover the joy of an all-day drunkeness !!!!
hips...

[ippolito]

We usually have breakfast with cappuccino and croissant or bread with jam
not wine in the morning.....only alcholist...or people for east europe that lives here( there are many ).
Brunello di Montalcino or Santa Cristina have all the charatteristic to beat franch wines...and we have a lot of goo white wine like pinot verdicchio etc..
I saw that in Japan it is very expensive so I carry 3 bottles of a good wine
for friends.

[Elizabeth]

Did you start dating your boyfriend for the "novelty"?

Any novelty of the romantic kind has long since worn off. :p He used to say, for instance, that he didn't want me staying in his condo concurrent with other guests. It was later explained this was to avoid any overlap which might cause the other person any inconvenience in such a confined space (I might have the television tuned too loud in the morning or the room I use makes it too difficult to enter). Initially of course I was under the impression it had something positive to do with me.

Entering a mentality like this takes time, but if you can, it does tend to relieve a lot of the psychological angst (am I being too aggressive ? too reserved ? why isn't he responding?). Always, always, always think of the other person/people first and everything should more or less fall into place, the inner voice motivating your actions becomes natural and effortless....and you may eventually get to your real goal as well. :D