Japanese school grades.

[God]

Do you think competition for grades is an unhealthy influence on students in Japan?

If you think so, could you please list for cons and pros about it.

i've heard that it causes some people to commit suicide although i'm not to sure about that. Maybe other people will now the benefits and hurtful parts about grades in a japanese school system.

[wakaP]

Do you think competition for grades is an unhealthy influence on students in Japan?

If you think so, could you please list for cons and pros about it.

i've heard that it causes some people to commit suicide although i'm not to sure about that. Maybe other people will now the benefits and hurtful parts about grades in a japanese school system.

That's interesting for me. But I don't understand well what 'competition for grades' is. Could you tell me about it ? :bow:

[Ewok85]

Its kinda like this; to gain enterance into a school you must score a certain grade, and to stay at the school have a consistantly high grade. Also which class you are placed in depends on your grades.

[God]

how does that type of system effect students in japan? do they take it in a healthy matter, or do they get so pressured by parents and peers they go crazy/hurt themselves?

[PaulTB]

Also which class you are placed in depends on your grades.
Does Japan have streamed classes in general? I know it (was) possible to get kept back a year but I hear that practically never happens now.
Its kinda like this; to gain enterance into a school you must score a certain grade
Specifically which schools you can get into - and finally which (if any) university.

[Minxie]

Do you think competition for grades is an unhealthy influence on students in Japan?

If you think so, could you please list for cons and pros about it.

i've heard that it causes some people to commit suicide although i'm not to sure about that. Maybe other people will now the benefits and hurtful parts about grades in a japanese school system.

Competition for grades is a stressful thing, and yes, the amounts of stress a kid endures out there to get into the best schools and universities is high. Sometimes the stress can get so overwhelming it might lead people to commit suicide as you have already heard. If a student does not perform to his/her expectations, to the parents expecations, the societies expectations, it can have a detrimental effect on that person.

The benefits? Hmmm... getting into a good university i guess is a pro. More competition can get students to perform at their best levels. But honestly, I think the cons outweigh the pros.

[Fantt]

I have heard that once Japanese students get into a "good" university, it's pretty much clear sailing from then on. Easy life at university and no-brainer chance of getting a job.

Is this the case?

[Keiichi]

I heard that University is an easy-life also, from a person who graduated University in Japan. Not sure about getting a job though (as in, I don't know).

Keiichi

:?

[Minxie]

I have heard that once Japanese students get into a "good" university, it's pretty much clear sailing from then on. Easy life at university and no-brainer chance of getting a job.

Is this the case?


you will have it "Easier" in terms of getting a job... there is still competition in college... once you get into a good university, you then end up competing for great grades to get the BEST job... at least thats what my mom told me...

[Lina Inverse]

Yes, I very clearly unhealthy for the students to be exposed to such an enormous pressure all the time :okashii:
As Minxie already said, some even commit suicide because the stress gets too much, which clearly shows what an extreme pressure they're exposed to :mad:

[Mike Cash]

Do you think competition for grades is an unhealthy influence on students in Japan?

If you think so, could you please list for cons and pros about it.

i've heard that it causes some people to commit suicide although i'm not to sure about that. Maybe other people will now the benefits and hurtful parts about grades in a japanese school system.

I'm sorta like WakaP. I don't know where you even got the idea that competition for grades exists. There is often strong competition for entrance to a certain school, but grades are seen as pretty meaningless in general.

[jieshi]

Its kinda like this; to gain enterance into a school you must score a certain grade, and to stay at the school have a consistantly high grade. Also which class you are placed in depends on your grades.

Hey Ewok what were your grades like in Japan? Did you have to have high scores to go to your school? My grades are relatively good, I think?

[DragonChan]

I know about all the pressure that Japanese kids have to get into schools, and I suppose I haven't been here long enough to really witness the hard workingness. They all worked very hard for the school festival (which was fun.) But for the most part everybody seems to fail thier quizzes, and in about half the classes, half my classmates do work from another class (usually english) or just sleep. I'm not in a low end school either, it is about mid range. Is my class just weird or is the sleeping, reading manga, and text messaging normal?

[wakaP]

Its kinda like this; to gain enterance into a school you must score a certain grade, and to stay at the school have a consistantly high grade. Also which class you are placed in depends on your grades.
If God's idea of competition for grades is so, it doesn't exsit in Japan.

In public junior high school, students automatically move up to higher class and guraduate.
To enter public high school, students must score a certain grade (as God said).
But there is no competition for grades. Because most students don't study hard, it is easy to get higher grades.
To enter private high school, students have to get a certain scores in the test for admission, but in most case they aren't required high grades in junior high school.
Surely, to enter popular universities or colleges is not easy.
But to enter the other kind of universities or colleges is very easy.
The only thing students have to do is taking the entrance examination or interview.
(Note that I don't say you have to get higher score in the exam.)

This is a rough outline of the situation in Japan.
The idea of 'competition for grades in school' is rather old and doesn't fit today.

There exsits another serious problem in Japan today, that is 学力低下問題 (the drop in academic abilities of students).
====

If you don't understand what I say due to my bad English, please let me know. I'll write in Japanese and ask someone here to translate into English.

[Faustianideals]

If God's idea of competition for grades is so, it doesn't exsit in Japan.

In public junior high school, students automatically move up to higher class and guraduate.
To enter public high school, students must score a certain grade (as God said).
But there is no competition for grades. Because most students don't study hard, it is easy to get higher grades.
To enter private high school, students have to get a certain scores in the test for admission, but in most case they aren't required high grades in junior high school.
Surely, to enter popular universities or colleges is not easy.
But to enter the other kind of universities or colleges is very easy.
The only thing students have to do is taking the entrance examination or interview.
(Note that I don't say you have to get higher score in the exam.)

This is a rough outline of the situation in Japan.
The idea of 'competition for grades in school' is rather old and doesn't fit today.

There exsits another serious problem in Japan today, that is 学力低下問題 (the drop in academic abilities of students).
====

If you don't understand what I say due to my bad English, please let me know. I'll write in Japanese and ask someone here to translate into English.

Yeah it's the same way at my high school!
We have classes like Algebra M, and "PALS" for morons who are stupid, etc... :lol:

[Mike Cash]

The problem (if you see it as one) is that the kids are graded relative to each other rather than to an absolute scale.

I forget the exact details of this stuff, but it goes something like this:

Grades are 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. A certain percentage of students in each class receives each grade. For example

10% of kids get a "1"
20% of kids get a "2"
40% of kids get a "3"
20% of kids get a "4"
10% of kids get a "5"

Like I said, I forget the exact details, but the above is close enough for the purposes of this explanation.

Now, let's say we make a test to give to the students in a certain class. Let's say the student with the lowest score in the class got 80% correct. He gets a "5".

Now let's go across town to another school and give those students the exact same test. Let's say the student there with the highest score got 75% correct. He gets a "1".

Get the point?

This sort of thing makes comparing students academic abilities by looking at their grades on their transcript an utterly meaningly exercise. What comes to have far more importance is the reputation of the schools.

This, in turn, creates other problems since anyone or anything relying primarily on its reputation sooner or later is tempted to rest on its laurels.

[wakaP]

The problem (if you see it as one) is that the kids are graded relative to each other rather than to an absolute scale.

Get the point?

YES, I know well about what you say. Thank you for your help.

But still I have to say that problem dosen't exist, and correct your sentense as like "the problem was that the kids were graded relative to each other (相対評価 in Japanese)".

Recently (4 years ago), the evaluating system in school has changed from "rerative evaluation" to "absoulte evaluation".
And another problem has arisen; "inflation of grage"

[Mike Cash]

My information came from an explanation by a Japanese high school teacher several years ago, so I can easily believe that my information is out of date. However, even if the system has changed the societal tendency to place more importance on the name of the school than the demonstrable quality of education which came from the old system still remains.

[iamstrange]

I think that there are both pros and cons. I am an American high school student, and I often find myself wishing that our schools were up to the standards of Japanese high schools. Even though my school is one of the best in the country (or so we are told), we still have people who slack off and/or disrupt the class, parents who don't care very much, etc. It's hard to get things done in class sometimes, and I think I'm stricter with myself about my grades than my parents are. :note:
But of course there are cons to the Japanese educational system, the most extreme being that some students can't take the pressure and commit suicide. Of course, this doesn't happen to everyone. But a lot of students do experience a great deal of stress, strained family relationships, and things like that.

I think that the only answer to the original question can be : Sometimes it is, but it usually isn't.

[Ewok85]

The problem (if you see it as one) is that the kids are graded relative to each other rather than to an absolute scale.

....

This sort of thing makes comparing students academic abilities by looking at their grades on their transcript an utterly meaningly exercise. What comes to have far more importance is the reputation of the schools.

Errgh, thats exactly how the TER (tertiary entrance ranking) score is determined in my state. You are 'scaled' depending on all the other people in your state, school and class in that subject and then your scores again as a whole against the state. Dodgy system.

[chiquiliquis]

YES, I know well about what you say. Thank you for your help.

But still I have to say that problem dosen't exist, and correct your sentense as like "the problem was that the kids were graded relative to each other (相対評価 in Japanese)".

Recently (4 years ago), the evaluating system in school has changed from "rerative evaluation" to "absoulte evaluation".
And another problem has arisen; "inflation of grage"

A public Jr. H.S. teacher's take:

I have it on good authority that the relative scores are still used on high school entrance exams (at the very least, here in Yamanashi)--the scores vary from year to year (see mikecash's post). The problem, as I see it, is very broad. It pertains to more than just competition for H.S. entrance. Classes (pre H.S., at least) are extreeeeemely stratified in this country. Students are not PLACED into apropriate classes. I have third year English students who still cannot read or write the roman alphabet sitting next to students who are studying high school English at a private (cram) school--both are sleeping through my lessons; One is too lost to give a damn, the other is bored out of his mind. Japanese students are extremey busy. But my curriculum is worthless to them. If they want to make it into H.S. they (or perhaps, their parents) are convinced they need to be taking classes outside school. I am guessing the same dynamic is true for H.S. There is a displaced value for public education here. I believe this is the source of many problems concerning student stress.

[Mike Cash]

I think that there are both pros and cons. I am an American high school student, and I often find myself wishing that our schools were up to the standards of Japanese high schools. Even though my school is one of the best in the country (or so we are told), we still have people who slack off and/or disrupt the class, parents who don't care very much, etc.

Are you familiar with Paul Simon's song "The Myth of Fingerprints"?

[Emoni]

The problem (if you see it as one) is that the kids are graded relative to each other rather than to an absolute scale.

I forget the exact details of this stuff, but it goes something like this:

Grades are 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. A certain percentage of students in each class receives each grade. For example

10% of kids get a "1"
20% of kids get a "2"
40% of kids get a "3"
20% of kids get a "4"
10% of kids get a "5"

Like I said, I forget the exact details, but the above is close enough for the purposes of this explanation.

Now, let's say we make a test to give to the students in a certain class. Let's say the student with the lowest score in the class got 80% correct. He gets a "5".

Now let's go across town to another school and give those students the exact same test. Let's say the student there with the highest score got 75% correct. He gets a "1".

Get the point?

This sort of thing makes comparing students academic abilities by looking at their grades on their transcript an utterly meaningly exercise. What comes to have far more importance is the reputation of the schools.

This, in turn, creates other problems since anyone or anything relying primarily on its reputation sooner or later is tempted to rest on its laurels.

I have a huge problem with this as well. To me, grades should always depend on knowledge of the material, not those who are in the room with you. I find this idea even more absurd when you are competing for grades separately in a college class room, and then are placed in GROUPS.

Anyone see a possible problem here?

I don't know a great deal of Japan's education system, so I'm not going to be too detailed. The country though could be Japan, American, or any other country... doesn't matter. There are so many idealogical flaws to this sort of system it is absurd. While there is nothing wrong with setting a high standard, the idea of setting a sizable percentage of your student to fail, even if they DO understand the material (and the fact there could be individual learning differences now and then) is just depressing.

Even my former Japanese language teacher was very critical of the Japanese education system for some of it's practices. I'm very impressed by the students in Japan to have to go through a system like this and make it through.

[DragonChan]

I think that there are both pros and cons. I am an American high school student, and I often find myself wishing that our schools were up to the standards of Japanese high schools. Even though my school is one of the best in the country (or so we are told), we still have people who slack off and/or disrupt the class, parents who don't care very much, etc. It's hard to get things done in class sometimes, and I think I'm stricter with myself about my grades than my parents are. :note:
But of course there are cons to the Japanese educational system, the most extreme being that some students can't take the pressure and commit suicide. Of course, this doesn't happen to everyone. But a lot of students do experience a great deal of stress, strained family relationships, and things like that.

I think that the only answer to the original question can be : Sometimes it is, but it usually isn't.

I don't think the Japanese system is very good. Having experienced both the Canadian one, and now the Japanese system I really just want to go home.

It really is all based off memorization. IE: In their English class they have to memorize a paragraph from thier textbook each day, and they have a quiz on it. They all memorize a bit of it, but they don't know what it means. At all. They have all this 'useful' vocabulary, like 'acknowledge', 'frankly', and 'discouraging' but I don't think a single member of the class could get directions if they were lost.

Did I add that I am in the International Communications class that is focused on English? They have 2-3 english classes a day.

Also, I have always been told that the Math is way ahead of what we learn...but it is stuff I already did (for the most part.) In fact, none of them seem to understand my math text that I brought over.

As for people fooling around in class...I find that my classes at home were more focused than the students here. At home, yeah we all fooled around and talked, but everybody at least had the right textbook open, and sort of knew what was going on. The students here will literally put thier head down and sleep, is that the dedication you are going for?

Hmm...reading this over I sound kinda bitter. Sorry about that.

[PaulTB]

Are you familiar with Paul Simon's song "The Myth of Fingerprints"?

No but I am familiar with some myths about fingerprints.

[Mike Cash]

No but I am familiar with some myths about fingerprints.

"It's not just me and it's not just you, this is all around the world"

[Fantt]

Dang, that's weird... I've been singing that song all morning... :shock:

"And the sun goes up and sun goes down, ever since the watermelon."

[Mike Cash]

There's no doubt about it. It was the myth of fingerprints. I've seen them all and man they're all the same.

[Ewok85]

I'm reading a book written by my uni lecturor (is there any easier way to kiss *** and cheat on an essay? :D) called "silence and resistance" in the Routledge Japanese Study series on Japanese High Schools (1998, Shoko Yoneyama).

So it focuses on 2 things, control and the response. Control being things like student-teacher relations, hidden curriculim (being graded on cooperation, interaction etc), discipline and punishment, school rules (uniform rules, hair, etc) and acheivment pressure. The respones being things like ijime (bullying, kids feeling that they have to be part of the group, extreme conformism), tokokyohi (a fear or refusal to attend).

It starts off talking about the 1997 school killer in Kobe. Just this year a young girl killed a peer in Kobe... weird.. anyway, they said the 2 disturbing things was the the students were sympathetic to the student who murdered 2 others (one girl was beaten to death and a boy was decapitated, his head left by the school gate and body elsewhere), they understood how he felt and it had been accuratly predicted around 10 years earlier. While Japan doesnt have unusally high suicide or violence rates compared to other countries they are more often "school related", not just acts of violence that happen to occur at school.

Its a good read anyway, although im drowning in the technicalities of the book, its got a huuuuge bibliography, she really did her research on this with just about every sentech having a reference to previous books, newspaper articles or journals on similar topics. It also has alot of data collected from Australian and Japanese students from questionaires and interviews.

[Keiichi]

I was just reading this book (I don't remember the name) with a section about Japanese Universities and about how simple it was, which was pretty interesting. I've heard from Japanese people that it's easy, but I've never got the details as to why it's that way. What I read was that as long as you get into a fairly well know University, you've pretty much increased your chances of getting a good job, as business picks out people from good Universities. What was interesting was that it said business doesn't look for grades, and because of this, the students are all laxed and just play around knowing they're in a safe zone already. Some interesting statistics I remembered from it was that 59% of University students do not study at all. A couple, 10% or so, studies about an hour a day. (This is for pretty basic studies, so stuff like Engineering does required hard work). People who do attend class just chat or sleep and play around. I've also read that only about 20% of the students attend class. Because of this, teachers just lectures without really giving a crap about it, give little to no homework, and make exams quite simple that an overnight cram can pretty much pass the test.

Keiichi

:souka:

[wakaP]

A public Jr. H.S. teacher's take:
Are you the teacher? If so, お努めご苦労さまです。


I have it on good authority that the relative scores are still used on high school entrance exams (at the very least, here in Yamanashi)--the scores vary from year to year (see mikecash's post).

Yes, some prefectures still use relative socres on high school entrance exams, but I want to note that they are minority today (less than 20%) and they are special case during a transition period.


The problem, as I see it, is very broad. It pertains to more than just competition for H.S. entrance. Classes (pre H.S., at least) are extreeeeemely stratified in this country. Students are not PLACED into apropriate classes.

That's true. Most of you may wonder why no placement by grades (or achievement ). The reason is that there have been a nuisance argument that placement by grades is a discrimination policy.


Japanese students are extremey busy.

This may be rather superficial. Although I don't know your definition of 'busy', Japanese students are not busy, they just waste much of their time.
Actualy, students today have much less lessons in school than before.


There is a displaced value for public education here.

In my opinion, people have lost sight of value of public education


I believe this is the source of many problems concerning student stress.

I think that regarding children as stressful itself is the source of problems with education in Japan. Kids are simply spoiled. They are not trained well at home. Well trained kids usulally have no problem. The problem exist at home and it appear at school.

[Legato]

This is all very interesting, it completely destroyed my vision of the very strict Japanese school system, however I would like to add something despite the fact that I have no experience with education in Japan. Apparently kids are no longer stressed, at least not as much as they used to be, with school in Japan but it was not an exception, it only depends on the type of school, familly background and expectations and personality, for example in France the grandes ecoles (great schools) which are for elites have their share of suicides because of failure and in some dorms they even had to put bars on the windows to prevent students from jumping, I know it sounds like a joke but it can happen anywhere.

[Ewok85]

Ok, I highly recommend this book as a read. Its like 1am and i have work so i'll keep this quick and you can have more tomorrow.

Its a little dated, dealing mainly with events from the lates 80's. Some of the points I'd highly agree with is the dehumanization of the teaching in Japan, where students can feel that they are not being treated like people and lack basic rights. This may be to overwhelming rules, sporadic punishment etc. Some examples given include a young boy beaten to death on a school trip after bringing an electric hair dryer by his teacher (who was given 3 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter), a 15yr girl who was crushed between the wall and a gate by an 'enthusiastic' teacher, who wasnt blamed as if the girl had been on time she wouldnt have been crushed and have died (she had never been previously late before). A 15yr old boy was beaten to death with a metal baseball bat by a teacher and several other students as punishment. In 1991 a 16yr old girl and 14yr old boy died after being locked in a railway container by a teacher in the height of summer for 44hrs straight.

Its not just grades that these kids have to put up with. They also have to deal with an ever increasing autocratic and nationalistic system, where they are silenced, forced to stop thinking for themselves and to criticize others. Theres some other examples that made me pale, one talking about PE teachers and club activities. A young girl who was a top ranked javalin thrower was hit, shouted at and lectured on several occasions at length for petty things such as not handing up a personal daily diary to the PE teacher (so he could keep track of her like outside of training, or lack of) and a junior club member not coming to training. The teacher also lectured her on her end-of-semester exam score and told her that she would not be allowed to continue her training or attend a training camp, she hung herself that evening.