Casting stones at Japanese hospitals

[Hachiko]

Personally, I've never had a gallstone, and I don't intend to, at least not in my lifetime.

Talk about galling. Last summer my family endured the hectic tedium of a Japanese hospital as my wife underwent surgery on her gallbladder.
There . . . I've managed to pass that pun from my system, sort of like ridding myself of my own little stone. Let's hope I have but one.

In my wife's case, tests showed she had enough stones to veneer her entire innards. Our doctor suggested this was the reason for her recent nausea, and not her husband's limp humor, as she had suggested.



Japan Times (http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fl20040925td.htm)

[Mike Cash]

Let's hope you never gain first-hand knowledge of the Japanese medical system. Horror stories abound.

[Jungle Boy]

I try to drink cranberry juice, it helps prevent stones in males. I don't EVER want to have to get rid of one of those things!

And why is the Japanese medical system so bad mike? It can't be any worse than say Canada or the US. I went to the hospital here a few times, and the staff were plenty slow, and incopetant to boot. Nothing like having 3 doctors drinking coffee and watching TV while not 10 feet away there are 20 people waiting for URGENT medical help!

[Mike Cash]

I'd rather not get into it at the moment, if I can be excused. This is one of those things I can rant about but it has no cathartic value.

[Jungle Boy]

If you don't want to talk about it then fine. But I don't mind listening to a good rant, so if you ever feel the need to then feel free to share :D

[Uncle Frank]

the health care system is in sad shape around the world?
Anybody live somewhere that they would like to brag about? I always hear Canada has one of the best in the world, but even then, you hear horror stories.Hopefully when America's health system collaspes, they will find a new one that works!

Frank

:?

[Mike Cash]

If you don't want to talk about it then fine. But I don't mind listening to a good rant, so if you ever feel the need to then feel free to share :D

If you'll accept some cut-n-paste of my past comments/rants on the matter, I'll try to oblige. I don't feel like typing them anew

April 30, 1999

I remember some articles which appeared in a newspaper in Japan
regarding the washing of hands in hospitals. There was a survey done
in which it was found that doctors rarely washed their hands between
patients, possibly contributing to the spread of germs between
patients. They also surveyed several medical schools to see if basic
examining room hygiene was included in the curriculum. It wasn't. The
students and staff all seemed surprised when it was suggested to them
that they, dispensers of health and healing, may in fact be
unwittingly spreading disease.

Which leads me off on another tangent......
I had many occasions to benefit from the medical community in Japan,
and in general have respect for them. But.....hospitals in Japan are
some of the filthiest places I have ever been in in my life.

They are cleaned everyday, true. But they merely come in and clean the
exact same surfaces everyday, with no regard for where the dirt may
actually be. Everything is done by rote. I shocked my fellow patients
by taking a paper towel and running it along the upper part of the
frame for the sliding door to our room. I took away a dust bunny that
you would need both hands to hold. I did the same on several surfaces
in that hospital. I even have pictures of one particular one that was
above the door of the bathroom in my wife's room when she gave birth.
It hangs over the door frame by several inches, draping downward like
vines hanging from a windowbox. This bathroom was cleaned every day.
Cleaned quite robotically. The cleaning person was shown exactly how
to clean a bathroom. Unfortunately that training didn't include a
section on how to take the initiative to actually look for dirt,
rather than just run a sponge over the same surfaces every single day.
There are surfaces in that hospital (and many others, I am sure) which
have not been cleaned since the day it was built.

In the nursery they have oxygen hosed hanging ready for emergency use
directly over the infants' bassinets. The hoses are coiled. The more
horizontal portions of the coil are deeply covered in dust no one
notices because they are too busy looking at the babies. I only
noticed it after almost two weeks of staring through the glass. The
nurses in charge are meticulous about keeping that room clean. They
walk across special sticky mats designed to remove filth from the
bottom of their shoes so they don't track it in. Mats which are
changed so infrequently that their use loses all meaning, by the way.
The nurses require the mothers to scrub up and wear white lab coats
while nursing their infants (under the supervision of a nurse with the
temperament of a Parris Island drill sergeant, causing many mothers to
"dry up" under the strain). All of this cleanliness and sanitation by
the numbers causes a sense of complacency among the staff. No one
bothers to inspect or to look for dirt. God knows there was plenty to
be found. The ship I lived on in the Navy with 400 other men was
infinitely cleaner than the average Japanese hospital. We were taught
to seek out the dirt in its hiding places, not merely to give the same
surfaces a lick and promise and call it a day.

March 2001

very early in my wife's pregnancy with our
son she experienced some vaginal bleeding and visited a doctor other
than her regular one, mainly because of office hours differences. The
quack she went to see apparently has an enormous ego and a huge amount
of pride in helping couples with fertility problems to conceive. We
were such a couple, but the pregnancy had nothing to do with this
doctor. He went on and on and on about his successes with helping
infertile couples, proclaimed that my wife was having a miscarriage,
offered to clean her out and help with a new pregnancy under his
supervision.

Personally, I think he let his ego cloud his medical judgment.

Our "miscarriage", who narrowly missed being the target of a D&C, will
be in the second grade this year.

Following a work accident in which my knee was injured, two doctors
proclaimed that I had a "karui nenza" and would be find and dandy in 3
day. I actually had about a 90% tear of the ACL (anterior cruciate
ligament). Had two operations, spent 3 months in a hip-to-ankle S&M
device, and was off work for 6 months.


October 2001

Kinda like when I tore the ACL in my left knee and the emergency room
doctors told me it was a light sprain that would be better in three
days. And when it wasn't, I went to another hospital, where the doctor
order about 13 or 14 x-rays taken (picked them from some pictures on a
plastic sheet lying on the desk), couldn't tell what the hell was
wrong. Told me to come back a couple of days later when a knee
specialist would be there. The knee specialist, Dr. Kizuki, ordered
what must have been the only view on the whole sheet NOT ordered by
the previous doctor. When this set (one shot of each knee) was done,
even an idiot like myself could see there was something definitely
wrong.

It's just hard as hell to get the right doctor, is all.


July, 2003

They amount they receive as a basic fee for the office visit is more
lucrative than the add-on amounts they get for dental tasks performed.
Well, maybe or maybe not in actual yen terms, but by spreading it over
four visits, they not only get the pay for the four extractions, they
collect an extra three times on the basic office visit fee. Dentists
are not only doctors, they're businessmen.

This is sort of similar to how Japanese doctors used to be famous for
loading people up with pharmaceuticals. Formerly, the normal practice
was to get the prescribed medicines directly from the clinic/hospital
you visited. The insurance folks prescribe how much doctors are
reimbursed for office visits and specific procedures performed, and
the doctors were sort of limited in their ability to pad the billing
on stuff like that. But one area where they maintained complete
discretion was in how much/many drugs to prescribe for patients. So to
make bucks, they would just load you up with a king-sized bag of pills
and sell them to you themselves (thereby reaping the markup on them as
well, you see). A few years ago there was a change of some sort, not
sure exactly what it was, which resulted in more and more people
taking their prescriptions out of the clinic/hospital and filling them
at the third-party pharmacy of their choice. Naturally, "independent"
pharmacies started to spring up around hospitals. I have a sneaking
suspicion that lots of them are owned by the doctors who have an
interest in the nearby hospitals.

Sometimes, I almost think that the Japanese invented the profit
motive.

January, 2001

I'm never going to get over taking my mother to emergency at Fukuyama
National Hospital in October for a twisted ankle, and he says to her,
who was not able to walk unassisted or sleep, "There is pain?" and
earlier during the examination, "haretemasu ne" (It's swollen).

And after all the waiting, and x-rays, when the nurse was trying to bend
my mother's foot at the ankle to force it into a sock ankle supporter
and my mother was going rigid on the table, she goes "Itain desu ka"
(Does it hurt?).

Except for the actual taking of the x-ray, there is nothing those people
did (took about an hour and a half of waiting with just one other
patient, a young man also with a hurt ankle) that my mother herself
could not already figure out for herself - they even re-used the sock
ankle supporter that my mother had bought for herself at the drugstore
after twisting her ankle, gave her medical plasters like from the store,
told her to avoid putting weight on the injured ankle, told her to avoid
soaking it in hot water to avoid further swelling, and to see the
specialist on Monday. Absolute genius.

Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan


January, 2001

About a month and a half ago, my wife took our new
baby to his one-month-old checkup at the maternity clinic. The physician
said that there seemed to be something pointy in our baby's left shoulder,
so it might be broken. He also said that the baby seemed to be having
difficulty breathing.

Now get this--the doctor's advice was to *wait a month* and re-examine the
baby at his two-month-old checkup.

Instead, we took the baby to a pediatrician at a local hospital who gave the
baby a real checkup, and found nothing wrong.

September, 1999

I have actually witnessed a NURSE telling a father NOT to place his child in a
safety seat. The child was a newborn and the family was checking out of the
hospital and getting ready to take the baby home for the first time. The father had bought a seat specially designed for newborns, but the nurse was hearing none of that! The mother was ready to knuckle under to the nurse, but the father (and me butting in) were able to prevail.


Those are just a very very few. You can find tons of others, and more startling ones.

[Jungle Boy]

Sounds like the hospitals here. I have heard tons of horror stories from my family and friends of the family about doctor/nurse incompetance that are very similar to the ones you and the others posted.

I think most countries have the same problem with healthcare, it's not just Japan.

[lexico]

I try to drink cranberry juice, it helps prevent stones in males. I don't EVER want to have to get rid of one of those things !I heard this one girl who was told she needed surgery to remove her stone.
She was also told she MIGHT lose it if she drank lots of beer.
Unfortunately her religious belief prevented her from doing that.
She told us later that after prayer, the stone left her body !
I don't doubt her, but I think she might have drank lots of water or tea on top of praying.
Beer might be good, but don't drink-n-drive ! :bluush:

[Silverpoint]

I think most countries have the same problem with healthcare, it's not just Japan.

Yes, but you forget... for some people on here, bashing Japan is the only thing that makes them happy.

I had emergency surgery about 18 months ago (I'm not going into details) but it involved siren-blaring ride in an ambulance. Personally I can't fault the treatment I received - especially the aftercare which was first rate and continued long after the problem had been resolved.

[Mike Cash]

Yes, but you forget... for some people on here, bashing Japan is the only thing that makes them happy.


And some very few of us make our permanent homes here and don't feel that comments which cast Japan in a negative light are "bashing", provided they are truthful and devoid of hyperbole.

[Silverpoint]

I agree. I just like to see a balanced view. I think it's fair to say that in many threads on this forum, there are a lot of exaggerated opinions which are far from being devoid of hyperbole and are not rooted in anything other than heresay. Clearly you've had some less than satisfactory experiences with medical treatment over here and this makes your specific examples valid. (Although I find it hard to believe you could create a dust bunny requiring two hands to hold it from the top edge of a door frame, no matter how dirty it was - a little hyperbolic perhaps?)

Regardless, I think it is unfair to extrapolate individual experiences into a generalisation such as "Let's hope you never gain first-hand knowledge of the Japanese medical system". Well I've had first-hand experience and I found it to be perfectly ok, so clearly your warning wasn't accurate in my case and was therefore unwarranted. To say you've had bad experiences is fine. However since you haven't been to every hospital in Japan, I'm unclear on how you know this to be the norm.

If I went to the United States and had bad treatment (even if it was on more than one occasion), I wouldn't suggest that the entire healthcare system cannot be trusted as this would be an unfair representation of an entire country.

[Mike Cash]

(Although I find it hard to believe you could create a dust bunny requiring two hands to hold it from the top edge of a door frame, no matter how dirty it was - a little hyperbolic perhaps?)

Sadly, it wasn't in the least bit exaggerated. If only it were....


Regardless, I think it is unfair to extrapolate individual experiences into a generalisation such as "Let's hope you never gain first-hand knowledge of the Japanese medical system".

Even if it were the best in the world I would hope that neither the OP nor anyone else gained first-hand knowledge of it.


Well I've had first-hand experience and I found it to be perfectly ok, so clearly your warning wasn't accurate in my case and was therefore unwarranted.

My warning about what? I don't recall making a warning and a review of the thread doesn't reveal one that I can spot.


To say you've had bad experiences is fine. However since you haven't been to every hospital in Japan, I'm unclear on how you know this to be the norm.


I'm unclear how you can read anything I posted in this thread as being a blanket statement covering every hospital in Japan. I suppose it involves ignoring the part where I say in general I have respect for the Japanese medical community and perhaps an inability to tell the difference between anecdotes and blanket statements.


If I went to the United States and had bad treatment (even if it was on more than one occasion), I wouldn't suggest that the entire healthcare system cannot be trusted as this would be an unfair representation of an entire country.

Did I suggest that the entire healthcare system can't be trusted? Or do you suppose I generally respect untrustworthy things?

I'm in the habit of phrasing my posts carefully, so confusion can usually be avoided by reading what is actually there, and not what one thinks is there.

[Silverpoint]

Let's hope you never gain first-hand knowledge of the Japanese medical system. Horror stories abound.


My reading of this was that you were saying was "I hope you don't have to suffer using Japanese healthcare because generally it's bad". Otherwise why add the second sentence? Clearly the two are linked because the second wouldn't have any focus without the first. I think it's probably fair to say, that any reasonably minded person could see this implication in your comment.

However, if you're genuinely saying that you didn't mean this, then I'm happy to concede to your clarification and humbly apologise for the misunderstanding.

[Silverpoint]

Edit: Sorry... mistake - ignore this post

[GaijinPunch]

Silverpiont: Do you like the Japanese health care system? I don't always agree with what Mike has to say but, "horror stories all around" pretty much sums it up. The only thing they're better at than the west (US at least) is longer in-patient periods after surgeries, births, etc.

I don't think Mike is basing anything on just personal experiences. I recall my wife (who actually likes the Japanese side of things) talking about a friend that had her doctor botch a surgery. She couldn't sue, b/c "he had connections in the government". Huh? Doctor's that can avoid malpractice?

Personal / family stories:
-Translated for a married couple when the wife w/ MS had too much to drink. They took her away in an ambulance, and the stretcher was too big for the emergency room door. It took about 10 minutes to finally get it in. Good thing it wasn't a "real" emergency. :/
-Family member had a large fibroid for years. She went to a new obgyn who said she didn't have one.
-I got a cold once, and was prescribed 7 (seven) kinds of medicine.
-Close mate was diagnosed with exhaustion, and was hospitalized when the doctor prescribed medicine for kidney failure. He apparently could've died if he finished the prescription.

While I think people in the US sue to much, the threat of being sued does something to the care and quality you get from the doctors. The whole doctors being the pharmacists thing is broken as well... hence the 6 placebos you get with your cold medicine. Japanese having a seemingly genetic tendency to become hypochondriacs (sp?) is like gasoline on the fire.

Don't get me wrong, the US has its own issues... mainly w/ management and under-priveledged people being covered adequately. I just think the medical quality is miles ahead of Japan though.

[Mike Cash]

I still remember my shocked reaction the first time a Japanese acquaintance informed me he had recently been to the hospital. I asked what the problem was. "I have a cold."

I had never in my life heard of anyone going to see a doctor over the common cold. I believe the person got a couple of shots and maybe an IV drip.

[Silverpoint]

Silverpiont: Do you like the Japanese health care system?

Simple question, simple answer. Yes I do.

Why? Because I've consistently had good treatment from the first time I arrived here. Generally when someone receives good service, they like something. They don't always go on other people's stories to form a opinion when they have their own personal experience to draw on. I've never anywhere in this forum stated that there aren't bad things happening in Japanese hospitals. I've questioned, but haven't dismissed anything that Mike or others have said. I'm quite sure that if I live in Japan for the rest of my life, I'll probably have a number of bad experiences with healthcare (especially dentists whom I would be the first to concede are somewhat 'behind the times').

I think my point is, that there are also numerous very positive stories I could quote, a number of which I've experienced myself including one case where the Japanese healthcare system could well have saved me from going blind due to a very rapid response in an emergency situation.

It's very easy to say things are bad when you only put one side of a story. I could genuinely say that "I've heard countless terrible stories about Americans", but this comment when presented on its own would be so misleading as to be almost worthless, as I am completely ignoring the fact that there are also a large number of positive stories about Americans, the fact that I have a lot of American friends and the fact that there are many qualities about the US that I admire.

Perhaps I'm a little sensitive because my fiancee is a healthcare professional and I think she is as competent as anyone I've seen in a western hospital. I just don't like seeing her get tarred with the same brush as all the bad elements because no attempt is made to suggest to show any positive side of Japanese medicine.

At the end of the day, all my comments boil down to is a response to the "Japanese healthcare abounds with horror stories" argument, with a simple "yes, but it's not all bad".

[Mike Cash]

Why is it that every time someone mentions something negative about anything regarding Japan there is an element which feels that the person making the comment is somehow under an obligation to either slam his own country equally or to make offsetting positive comments about Japan?

[Silverpoint]

I explained my motives. Why do I have to justify my desire to see a balanced debate to you? I was under the impression this is my perogative.

This site is called "Japan Reference". Like it or not, people come here, read stuff and form an opinion of an entire nation based on the limited view of what they see. You and I both know this. It doesn't mean they're right, but it happens - you only have to look at the comments of new users who drag up some earlier thread they've read as if it's the gospel truth. For this reason, especially when I have a vested interest, I like to see both sides of a story.

Furthermore, since I can only assume your previous comment was fired largely in my direction, I'm not forcing you or suggesting any kind of obligation on your part to put a positive view. If you'll notice, I've taken that responsibility upon myself. Neither have I suggested that you should trash your own country, which although I've never used it, I'm sure has a perfectly satisfactory healthcare system of its own.

[Mike Cash]

It wasn't "fired" in your general direction, but you certainly inspired it. If it had been fired at you in particular, the wording would have made it apparent. (See my earlier comments about reading what is actually there rather than what you think is there). It was a general question regarding a phenomenon I have encountered other places as well, not just on JREF.

[GaijinPunch]

I had never in my life heard of anyone going to see a doctor over the common cold.

In my story, I was forced to go by my boss. I taught a few classes after work (for the company) and I had lost my voice from it, and he wanted to know how long I would be out.

t's very easy to say things are bad when you only put one side of a story.

I put up many sides of the story. I stated what I thought was good about the Japanese system, and what was bad. The bad far outweigh the good. I even stated what I thought was bad w/ the US system.

For the record, I've been a patient in:
-The US many times -- lots of stitches and a break or two
-Japan a few times, and have of course visited my wife when she was a patient a few times. I also got a wisdom tooth pulled in a very Little Shop of Horrors style procedure that I will never forget. It was the worst pain I ever felt.
-Thailand once, for dissentry.
-Mexico once, for stitches (I picked up a big iguana and it bit me, slicing open my forearm). Based on my one trip, I would not recommend having any procedures in Mexico.

I put Japan above Mexico but below Thailand.

[Mike Cash]

I've got horror stories of the U.S. medical system as well....but since this is a Japan related forum, I didn't feel a need to relate them.

If it didn't make me mad enough to climb a clock tower, I suppose I could go into a rant about mastectomies being done on an outpatient basis.

[Silverpoint]

It wasn't "fired" in your general direction, but you certainly inspired it. If it had been fired at you in particular, the wording would have made it apparent. (See my earlier comments about reading what is actually there rather than what you think is there). It was a general question regarding a phenomenon I have encountered other places as well, not just on JREF.

Actually Mike although you may not believe it, I have a great deal of respect for your views and as I said before I don't disagree that Japan's healthcare system could be drastically improved. I haven't actually outright denied any of your comments. As I said before, I'm just putting some of the good to balance your putting mostly the bad.

However, using thinly veiled generalizations (the "why is it that every time..." comment") and then hiding behind the convenient excuse that "Oh, but I didn't actually fire it at you in particular" (to paraphrase what I believe to be your opinion) I think is actually more dishonest than actually saying something straight. By the time you made this comment the debate had been pretty much bouncing between the two of us, and I was the only person who was pushing a counterpoint to your comments.

If at this point I said "God, why is it that there are always loud-mouthed Americans who try to trash Japan in every thread?" (for the record I don't think this) and then tried to claim it wasn't about you because I hadn't clearly signposted your name in big red letters would be pretty shabby. Telling me not to read stuff into your comments when clearly there is an intended implication there is just insulting to my intelligence and personally I think its beneath you. Ask anyone else in who has read this thread and who do you think they would guess you were referencing?

If you think something, say it. I might not agree but I would respect your view. Muddying the waters with vague references doesn't do anything for anyone.

[Mike Cash]

You're right. I lied. I have never encountered the phenomenon either here or on other forums before, so there is no way I could ask a general question regarding it. I made it all up.

I don't know how my statement that your post inspired the question got overlooked. Since you're such hot stuff on inferring things where nothing was implied, it is a wonder to me how you miss picking up on the one thing I actually did directly imply by putting your choice of the word "fire" in quotation marks.

When you paraphrase another's words, it is generally best to indicate that you're paraphrasing. I can't find where I made the statement, "Oh, but I didn't actually fire it at you in particular" which you attribute to me. Do you do the same thing in face-to-face conversations? Hearing what you want/expect to hear rather than what was said?

[lexico]

Come on, let's not cast stones at each other; they were meant only for the substandard medical establishments... doing a painful job of gallstone or bladder stone extractions, wasn't it ?
My mother's gall stone broke up the family... :(
I think gall stones are evil, evil; now its fostering a racial conflict right on this forum. :bawling:

[Silverpoint]

Edit: With apologies to Lex, who got in while I was typing this comment, but I can assure you, this is my final word.

You're right. I lied. I have never encountered the phenomenon either here or on other forums before, so there is no way I could ask a general question regarding it. I made it all up.

I can't understand clearly what you're meaning here, other than you're making a sarcastic comment, but I think I understand your message. As for the "phenomenon", I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I don't think it's that important.

I don't know how my statement that your post inspired the question got overlooked.
What makes you think I overlooked it? I read it several times actually a little puzzled how I could inspire something and yet not have it directed at me, when there was no one else around who was an obvious candidate for your criticism.

Since you're such hot stuff on inferring things where nothing was implied, it is a wonder to me how you miss picking up on the one thing I actually did directly imply by putting your choice of the word "fire" in quotation marks.
Because I was interested in arguing the points that you were denying. Not the things that you freely admit.

When you paraphrase another's words, it is generally best to indicate that you're paraphrasing. I can't find where I made the statement, "Oh, but I didn't actually fire it at you in particular" which you attribute to me.
Since it troubles you, I've gone back and re-edited the comment to make it clear that I was paraphrasing - I'm more than happy to do that. Since your original words were both box-quoted also appeared a couple of posts earlier, I assumed that anyone with any intelligence having read your comments would know that I wasn't attributing a direct quote as they would know you hadn't used these exact words.
I used quote marks from a stylistic point of view to make it obvious which part of the sentence was supposed represent my personal belief about what you were thinking, but in hindsight perhaps quote marks could be misleading, so again I'm happy to make it clear that you didn't say this, even if I still believe it's what you fully intended.

Do you do the same thing in face-to-face conversations? Hearing what you want/expect to hear rather than what was said?
I'm not quite sure what the relevance of what I do in face-to-face conversation has to do with anything, but since you asked, no I don't believe I do. What I frequently do however is point out when I believe someone is using what I think it is fair to say is a fairly childish tactic - i.e. casting general aspersions and then lamely hiding behind the charade that it wasn't directly pointed at an individual, so how could it possibly cause offence when the implication is clear for all to see. I think you did this, you say you didn't... Other people can decide for themselves.

Anyway, enough is enough. The bickering is going on far too long, and I wouldn't be surprised if a moderator doesn't close this thread if it doesn't get back on track soon. Let's be honest - no matter how right we both think we are, these types of arguments only annoy other forum users and I think I've made my views fairly clear, so there's little point in continuing. Since I wouldn't want to be accused of a similarly childish tactic of trying to grab the final word and then call a halt, you're more than welcome to respond - I won't be continuing this line of disagreement any further.