Question regarding difference of grammar.

[adv]

Hello.

Is my transformation of grammer and translation correct:

Gakuse ga eiga wo mitai. Now this sentence can turn into the following:
Eiga wo mitai gakuse (the student who wanted to see the film)
Gakuse ga mitai eiga (the film that the student wanted to see)

Right or not?

How can no wa be used correctly to extend the sentence? Can one say, for instance:

Eiga wo mitai gakuse no wa ii des. (the student who wanted to see the film and is good)

Or will it only make sense to write:

Eiga wo mitai gakuse wa Tanakasan no wa ii des. (the student who wanted to see the film is Tanaka and he is good.)

I'm sorry I know this is a bit to address but I am uncomfortable with this usage. Thanks!

[Fantt]

I don't know the answers to your questions, but isn't the sentence, "the student who wanted to see the film and is good" kind of confusing? It's not really a sentence, but more of a fragment. I'm not sure what that means.

As for, "the student who wanted to see the film is Tanaka and he is good." why would you want to say both things in the same sentence? That's also confusing to me.

[adv]

Fantt, I do agree that the sentences are not good. However, I was curious as to whether or not they are correct. The "he is good part" can be replaced with something else less confusing. The reason I put no wa is because that is two particles that indicate judgment. For example:

Gakuse ga eiga wo mitai. Let's say this is changed to Gakuse ga mitai eiga wa "Titanic" des. (The film the student wants to see is Titanic).This is a statement not a judgment so I am unsure if or how no wa can be combined. As you said the no wa, when I translate it does not sound entirely correct. But can I use it though? Am i just mistranslating it in that context?

[NANGI]

Konnichiwa Adv-san!

Is my transformation of grammer and translation correct:
Gakuse ga eiga wo mitai. Now this sentence can turn into the following:
Eiga wo mitai gakuse (the student who wanted to see the film)
Gakuse ga mitai eiga (the film that the student wanted to see)
Right or not?
You are right! :cool:


How can no wa be used correctly to extend the sentence? Can one say, for instance:
Eiga wo mitai gakuse no wa ii des. (the student who wanted to see the film and is good)

Fantt already said, "the student who wanted to see the film and is good" is not good sentence. :relief: "the film that the student wants to see is good" is good sentence and is "Gakusei ga Mitai Eiga wa Ii desu" in Japanese.

This sentence don't have "no wa", because "no wa" is used with "verb".
"Eiga wo Mitai no wa Gakusei desu" is good. "Mitai" is transformational word of "Miru". This is "It is the student who wants to see the film" in English.

instance
Gakuse ga mitai eiga wa "Titanic" des / The film the student wants to see is Titanic.
Gakuse ga mitai no wa "Titanic" des / It is "Titanic" that the student wants to see.

other instance
Kare wa Inu wo Katteiru / He has a dog.
Kare ga Katteiru no wa Inu desu / It is a dog that he has.

Sorry, my explanation is not good and please decipher my sentence. :p

NANGI

[Soren]

Eiga wo mitai gakuse no wa ii des. (the student who wanted to see the film and is good)


Do you mean "{the student who wants to see the film} is good", or perhaps "the {[good] and [wanting-to-see-the-film]} student" (i.e. "The good student who wants to see the film").

The former would be:

映画を見たい学生はいいです。
"eiga o mitai gakusei wa ii desu"
The student who wants to see the film is good

The latter would be:

よくて映画を見たい学生
"yokute eiga o mitai gakusei"
the good student who wants to see the film

映画を見たくていい学生
"eiga o mitakute ii gakusei"
the good student who wants to see the film

These last two aren't sentences on their own, but rather noun phrases, so we can say things like:

昨日よくて映画を見たい学生に出会いました。
"kinou yokute eiga o mitai gakusei ni deaimashita"
(Yesterday, I met the good student who wants to see the film)

Please someone correct me if any of these examples are unnatural or wrong.


How can no wa be used correctly to extend the sentence? Can one say, for instance:
Eiga wo mitai gakuse no wa ii des. (the student who wanted to see the film and is good)

You don't need "no" here, because "eiga wo mitai gakusei" is a noun phrase, specifically, it represents a student. "no" is used to turn verb phrases into noun phrases (nominalise them). For example:

映画を見る
eiga wo miru
(to) watch movies

映画を見るの.....
eiga wo miru no....
watching movies....

for example, in:

映画を見るのが好きです。
eiga wo miru no ga suki desu
I like watching movies

[Scrivener]

"eiga o mitai gakusei wa ii desu"
I'm not sure about this - it sounds like "no thank you, I don't want a student who wants to see a film" ("ii desu" is used more often for things to do with permission than for saying "it's good").

I think you would have to say "eiga o mitai gakusei wa ii gakusei desu". Maybe if you said "eiga o mitai gakusei wa ii desu NE" it would sound like "that student who wants to see a film is good, isn't he", because the "ne" would get rid of the "permission" aspect, but I think it would have an implication of "good looking".

Although it is possible to say "ii gakusei" meaning "a student who studies hard" or similar, the usage of "ii" in these sentences seems somehow odd to me. (The native speakers said there was something odd about it too.) It just doesn't seem like the most natural word to use to talk about "good students" who want to see films. They would say "students with good grades" or something, I think.

Just to sum up for adv, if you are looking to use "no wa" you can use it to replace a noun, like "gakusei ga mitai no wa "Titanic" desu" in Nangi's example, where the "no" is replacing "eiga" and the "wa" is making it the topic of the sentence.

Otherwise, as Soren said, you can use it to turn a whole verb phrase into a noun phrase - kind of like putting quotes around it, to connect the whole phrase to the next verb. Here's an example pulled at random off Google:
朝に空を見るのは、占いを見るよりまし
Asa ni sora o miru no wa, uranai o miru yori mashi
Looking at the sky in the morning is better than viewing your fortune

So to answer your original question, probably you were looking for something like:
gakusei ga eiga o miru no wa, totemo ii koto desu
Students watching films is a good thing (= it's good for students to go to the movies)

Maybe you could say "gakusei ga eiga o mitai no wa, totemo ii koto desu" (it's good that students want to see the film) but I'm not 100% sure of that. I think you might say "gakusei ga eiga wo mitai to iu koto wa" or something.

[Elizabeth]

よくて映画を見たい学生
"yokute eiga o mitai gakusei"
the good student who wants to see the film

映画を見たくていい学生
"eiga o mitakute ii gakusei"
the good student who wants to see the film

These last two aren't sentences on their own, but rather noun phrases, so we can say things like:

昨日よくて映画を見たい学生を出会いました。
"kinou yokute eiga o mitai gakusei o deaimashita"
(Yesterday, I met the good student who wants to see the film)

Please someone correct me if any of these examples are unnatural or wrong.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say (良い映画 (never yokute) is good film, not good student 見たくていい is not wants to see but something odd like 'alright to want to see'). Also, isn't it normally 'ni deaimashita' for encountered ?

[adv]

Thank you to everyone who responded! I'll be honest, I still am a bit confused. But I think that has less to do with the usage of no wa and more to do with my choosing the poor phrase ii des when coupled with the particle no, as it would seem as if I am refering to a question or wanting something, as Scrivener said.

I understand no wa as a seperate particles, but I was perplexed by their combined meaning (as a connection indicating opinion, not indicators of sympathy or topic respectively). I think the main understanding is that I should, when extending the phrase (nominalized or otherwise) with no wa include both verb and noun as if it was another sentence (with that sentence including a commentary on the preceding phrase) and not just a brief judgment, as I originally thought, with just saying he's good or what have you. The examples of good thing, better than, have no wa as this function.

[Scrivener]

よくて映画を見たい学生
"yokute eiga o mitai gakusei"
the good student who wants to see the film
What Soren was trying there was using the form like "wakakute kawaii josei" (a pretty young woman) but with "ii" and "eiga wo mitai". I don't really know if that is possible, but if it's technically possible, no-one would ever say that in real life, of course. If a Japanese person wanted to say "a good student who wants to see a film", they would say it some other way, maybe "eiga wo mitagaru seiseki no yoi gakusei" or something, I'm not sure. (I think you use mitai when speaking about yourself, or in general, but mita-garu for speaking about another person, but feel free to give me the actual rule.)

[Soren]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say (良い映画 (never yokute) is good film, not good student 見たくていい is not wants to see but something odd like 'alright to want to see').

I was trying to interpret what adv was trying to say - it doesn't make much sense to me either. Scrivener was right though about how I was trying to structure it.....I thought it was grammatically correct, even if it makes little sense:)


Also, isn't it normally 'ni deaimashita' for encountered ?
Thanks, that's just me being stupid....:P

[Elizabeth]

What Soren was trying there was using the form like "wakakute kawaii josei" (a pretty young woman) but with "ii" and "eiga wo mitai". I don't really know if that is possible, but if it's technically possible, no-one would ever say that in real life, of course. If a Japanese person wanted to say "a good student who wants to see a film", they would say it some other way, maybe "eiga wo mitagaru seiseki no yoi gakusei" or something, I'm not sure. (I think you use mitai when speaking about yourself, or in general, but mita-garu for speaking about another person, but feel free to give me the actual rule.)
I go with Nangi's ruling on the acceptability of 'Eiga wo Mitai gakusei.' There are plenty of examples without garu on Google as well. I agree though on 'gakusei ga ii' not coming across as good in the capacity of student behavior or grades, more like an overall good person perhaps. :?

[Scrivener]

I'd be interested to hear from Nangi or other native speakers on -garu. What I'm wondering about is a case where you are pointing at a specific person and saying "setsuko-san wa eiga o mitai gakusei desu" (節子さんは映画を見たい学生です), not something like "eiga o mitai gakusei 100-nin imashita" or some general case. I'm interested in the difference with 節子さんは映画を見たがっています, or if it's possible to say 節子さんは映画を見たがる学生です. Hey I think that's the first time I've asked a question! (Normally I just leave questions like that because I only ever read Japanese, never speak, so I don't need to be able to construct sentences, just understand them. That's why I'm always quite tentative about suggesting Japanese sentences, as opposed to translating into English, where I'm quite opinionated.)

[PaulTB]

because I only ever read Japanese, never speak, so I don't need to be able to construct sentences, just understand them. That's why I'm always quite tentative about suggesting Japanese sentences
I know the feeling.

節子さんは映画を見たい学生です
節子さんは映画を見たがる学生です.

Hmm, I think 映画を見た[い/がる] is too direct and immediate to sound natural with either sentence - given the precise identification of the [topic + subject] 節子さんは

[Elizabeth]

I know the feeling.

節子さんは映画を見たい学生です
節子さんは映画を見たがる学生です.

Hmm, I think 映画を見た[い/がる] is too direct and immediate to sound natural with either sentence - given the precise identification of the [topic + subject] 節子さんは
How is the identification a decisive factor with 'garu' ? :? Doesn't it imply a general supposition or indirect inference, seems or looks like a desire or emotion, regardless of the topic or subject ? I'm not sure, I haven't encountered it often enough outside of feeling states, such as hazukashigatte or something.

[Scrivener]

I studied it a long time ago. I think if you say "節子さんは恥ずかしいです" it's like "I'm ashamed of Setsuko" so you HAVE to say "節子さんは恥ずかしがっています" even if you are 100% certain that she is ashamed or whatever. You don't have the same problem with 見たい and 見たがる of course, but my recollection from my old text book is that you do the same. If you put "映画を見たがる" into Google, the first thing you get back is "東宝夏祭り系アニメ映画を見たがる妹" and the writer is just saying "my younger sister WANTED to see a Toho summer blockbuster type anime", not "she seemed to..." etc. Of course you can say "映画を見たい人" when you are talking about people in general though.

I guess it isn't a hard and fast RULE, but I'd be interested to hear a native speaker opinion anyway. :?

[PaulTB]

If you put "映画を見たがる" into Google, the first thing you get back is "東宝夏祭り系アニメ映画を見たがる妹" and the writer is just saying "my younger sister WANTED to see a Toho summer blockbuster type anime", not "she seemed to..." etc.

I don't have any problem with the full sentence you Googled.

話は戻りますが、東宝夏祭り系アニメ映画を見たがる妹、それを勧める父を押し切り、僕の熱望により家族全員 がこの映画を見たのです。

How is the identification a decisive factor with 'garu' ? :? Doesn't it imply a general supposition or indirect inference, seems or looks like a desire or emotion, regardless of the topic or subject ? I'm not sure, I haven't encountered it often enough outside of feeling states, such as hazukashigatte or something.

It's just an odd way of classifying a specific named person,

節子さんは学生です. Setsuko is a student.
is fine.

節子さんは映画を見たがる学生です.
Setsuko is a student who wants to watch (a) movie(s).
is an odd sentence in English or Japanese - there can't be many contexts in which it would be natural.

I dare say there are lots of contexts in which 映画を見たがる学生 or 映画を見たい学生 would be natural as part of a sentence.

[Scrivener]

Well yeah it should be "my younger sister who wanted to see..." in the full sentence I guess:

"Returning to my story, I overcame the opposition of my sister who wanted to see a Toho 'summer blockbuster' type anime and my father who was [also] recommending that we do so, and because of my enthusiasm the whole family went to see this movie." (They saw Clash of the Titans instead, which turned out to be a mistake.)

As for context, yes it is a dumb sentence. You can imagine a case where the teacher said "there are three students in my class who want to see a movie, find out who they are" and the answer comes "Setsuko is a student who wants to see a movie" but it's pretty lame. 節子さんは映画を見たがっています is more normal I think. We got onto this digression from 【節子さんは】映画を見たがる成績のよい学生です as my suggestion for "X is a good student who wants to see a movie", but this thread has had a lot of problems starting off from some slightly odd sentences.

I dare say there are lots of contexts in which 映画を見たがる学生 or 映画を見たい学生 would be natural as part of a sentence.Yeah that's basically what I'm wondering about, if there is any sentence where you can use 映画を見たい to refer to ONE SPECIFIC person on one specific occasion of wanting to see a movie, rather than 映画を見たがる. (That's why Setsuko-san came up.) 学生 was an artifact of the earlier sentences I guess. :mad:

[kara]

How can no wa be used correctly to extend the sentence? Can one say, for instance:

Eiga wo mitai gakuse no wa ii des. (the student who wanted to see the film and is good)

Or will it only make sense to write:

Eiga wo mitai gakuse wa Tanakasan no wa ii des. (the student who wanted to see the film is Tanaka and he is good.)
To make a nearly the same meaning sentence with no wa, I'd say;
Gakusei ga mitai no wa eiga desu.(The thing that the student wants to watch is (not TV, football game, live show etc. but) a movie.)

[PaulTB]

Yeah that's basically what I'm wondering about, if there is any sentence where you can use 映画を見たい to refer to ONE SPECIFIC person on one specific occasion of wanting to see a movie, rather than 映画を見たがる.
Excepting questions and conditionals I presume?

e.g. 節子さんが映画を見たいなら、一緒に行きませんか。

[Elizabeth]

Yeah that's basically what I'm wondering about, if there is any sentence where you can use 映画を見たい to refer to ONE SPECIFIC person on one specific occasion of wanting to see a movie, rather than 映画を見たがる. (That's why Setsuko-san came up.) 学生 was an artifact of the earlier sentences I guess. :mad:
Most likely yes. I've certainly seen sample sentences along the line of "Jon wa eigo ka nihongo ka dochira ka wo senkou shitai to omotte imasu" so it would seem slightly nonstandard if this wouldn't work for a specific movie instance....:?

[PaulTB]

I've certainly seen sample sentences along the line of "Jon wa eigo ka nihongo ka dochira ka wo senkou shitai to omotte imasu"
But 'mitai's always been OK in questions.

[Elizabeth]

But 'mitai's always been OK in questions.
In questions and probably with 'deshou' or 'maybe' or other open-ended endings, but where is the question in question here ? This thread may be more mind warping for native speakers than it's worth. :relief:

[PaulTB]

In questions and probably with 'deshou' or 'maybe' or other open-ended endings, but where is the question in question here ?

Oops that was me carelessly reading the example sentence again (well it _was_ romaji - you're 'lucky' I read it at all :-P )

Jon wa eigo ka nihongo ka dochira ka wo senkou shitai to omotte imasu

I suspect it's 'allowed' because it's clearly an opinion (given the to omotte imasu) and is not stated as a fact.

[Elizabeth]

The reference here is the only explanation I was able to find relating たがる (as well as と思っています)　directly to the original expression "shows signs of wanting." The consistenly applied case of "hoshiigaru" isn't given, although I'm still relatively certain that isn't meant to distinguish fact from opinion.... :?


http://mkikuchi.faculty.gatech.edu/WebCTVista/JAPN2001/contents/Lesson23/23.1/23.1.1g.html

[PaulTB]

The reference here is the only explanation I was able to find relating たがる (as well as と思っています)　directly to the original expression "shows signs of wanting." The consistenly applied case of "hoshiigaru" isn't given, although I'm still relatively certain that isn't meant to distinguish fact from opinion.... :?


http://mkikuchi.faculty.gatech.edu/WebCTVista/JAPN2001/contents/Lesson23/23.1/23.1.1g.html

I think I should quit while I'm behind ... :relief:

*ahem* OK so
ジョンは英語か日本語かどちらかを専攻したいと思っています。
Is, based on the 思っています bit, what somebody else is saying about what John is thinking of doing. Given that it's John's thoughts we can only assume that he's told the speaker this so - たい isn't deduced from observation.

[Scrivener]

Thanks for the link Liz!

In Lesson 21 you learned the Vたい form, which express the speaker's own desire, "I want to..." At the same time, you were cautioned not use the Vたい form to express other's desires. The others' desires are expressed with the prhase Vたがっている. This form literally means "show the sign of wanting." The implication here is that one cannot know what others want directly, but only indirectly by inferring, through hearsay, or by observing... As you may guess, the difference between Vたい and Vたがっている is closely related to the difference between と思う and と思っている. As seen in both cases, the Japanese language is more sensitive to the distinction between speaker's own private world vs. others' worlds than English is.Yeah, that's what I was remembering from however many years ago...

Remember we were talking here about saying "the student who wants to see a movie". That's the kind of situation I was interested in, and I thought it fell under the case mentioned in the quote of "talking about others desires". However I know there are many exceptions like general cases, etc. I'm not sure how strong this rule is anyway.

[Elizabeth]

Remember we were talking here about saying "the student who wants to see a movie". That's the kind of situation I was interested in, and I thought it fell under the case mentioned in the quote of "talking about others desires". However I know there are many exceptions like general cases, etc. I'm not sure how strong this rule is anyway.
I'll pose it as a Nihongo forum post tomorrow or ask a friend tonight if I can get my act together. :haihai: