Electronic Dictionary for studying japanese

[kisu]

I'm looking for one of those little pocket electronic dictionaries that everyone studying a language has *sigh*

One for learning japanese that has

english-japanese/japanese-english dictionary
useful phrases (categorized? search-able?)
romaji or kana enrty
displays words in romaji/kana and the kanji (if applicable) and english

I don't want a talking one though. And I'm *hoping* to find one around 200$ CAD max (of course I'd want the cheapest one that has all the things I want thoguh..)... if there are none, I guess I'll look into ones a bit more expensive.

Do you have any reccomendations?

Also, if I were to want to purchase one of these in a physical store (not online).. what types of stores sell them? A language store? An electronics store? Specialty?

Thansk a million. I really feel getting one will help me alot, Lol. ^^

~Kisu

[Glenn]

Have you tried searching the internet (google.com)?

[BamaFan2989]

Glenn, I understand about searching on Google lol. I went to Amazon and found like three. But I would love some reccomendations too. Thanks!

[Glenn]

Well, I don't have any recomendations, as I have never used one, but the original post seemed like the "do all the work for me" variety. It doesn't hurt to show that you've done a little research so that we know you have done some work yourself. By the way, this has already come up before:

http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84417&postcount=2
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7854&highlight=electronic+dictionaries
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6948&highlight=electronic+dictionaries
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2158&highlight=electronic+dictionaries
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=970&highlight=electronic+dictionaries
http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=14703&postcount=5

[BamaFan2989]

thanks for the links

[Mike Cash]

If you got the money for one of those, you got the money for textbooks.

[BamaFan2989]

I am getting it for Christmas, but I have to show my mom now. I am going to get some textbooks when I get a job, or maybe for Christmas too. I figured it would be easier to get the books without Christmas, because the ET Dictionary is expensive.

[kisu]

I've decided on the Canon wordtank IDF-3000

it sounds good, and experience with it pros or cons?

Opinions?

~Kisu

[Mike Cash]

Bama, while kewl gadgets are always nice to have, an electronic dictionary is pretty danged useless for Japanese learning without at least having a start down the road to learning the language.

Imagine that words are flesh and grammar-n-whatnot are bones. You won't construct any sort of recognizable beast without some bones to hang the flesh on. It's the cart and horse thing again.

My advice, which you are perfectly free to ignore, of course, is to get the texts and a (gasp!) paper dictionary while Mom is willing to foot the bill and save up your own bucks for the electronic dictionary later, when it will actually be of more use to you. If Santy Claus will bring you the texts and the electronic doodad, then that's great. If it's either/or....I'd ask Saint Nick for the texts, associated tapes, and a paper dictionary.

Another thing to consider is that if you start into the actual foot-slogging work of seriously learning Japanese and find that it isn't something you care to continue, you'll have a bunch-o-bucks invested in something you'll have no need for. There are people who burn out on learning Japanese, you know. And some very early into the process.

You have burst onto the JREF scene with such a burning passion that I haven't been able to help wondering if you're the sort of person who approaches lots of things in life like that. Not to imply it's a bad thing if you do, but the next thing that makes me wonder is if you're the sort of person whose burning passions burn out just as spectacularly as they flared up to begin with. If you are, then you might find yourself with a very expensive battery-operated paperweight in short order. If you're not, then the investment may be a wise one.

I'll let you in on a little-known secret...it is possible to learn a very fair amount of Japanese while hardly ever accessing a dictionary at all. If I had to count on my fingers the number of times I have made use of one in either my studies or my daily life....I'd have fingers left over. What the heck I'd do with them, I don't know, but I'd have them. And it's always nice to have spares.

[jt_]

I just want to second everything that Mike said in his above post. Without a solid command of the structure of the language (the sort which you can get from taking a class or from disciplined study on your own with a good textbook) a fancy electronic dictionary is going to do you little to no good.

In fact, I'd almost be so bold as to say that overreliance on a dictionary in the early stages of your study can actually hurt you, because it can encourage the bad habit of trying to "decode" or "puzzle out" Japanese sentences (by looking up one-word English "meanings" of individual words, which in many cases won't help you figure out what's actually going on in the Japanese sentence) rather than actually learning to read the language the way a native speaker would. Or, going the other way, it can encourage too much direct translation from English to Japanese when you're trying to speak or write, rather than focusing on learning natural Japanese expressions that would actually be used by native speakers.

In another thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=135289#post135289), I posted some links to (paper) dictionaries that I found useful when I was just starting out with the language. I'd suggest picking up the Kodansha Furigana Dictionaries and the "Basic" grammar reference by Makino and Tsutsui, as complements to a good textbook. Both of these books are good for beginning students because they provide a lot of example sentences, which I think is the most important thing when you're starting out. That way you can learn more than just "How do I say [English word] in Japanese" (or "What does [Japanese word] mean in English?") -- which, more often than not, is the wrong question to be asking yourself in the first place.

Just my two cents.

[Kamisama]

there are few reasons why electronic dictionaries suck.

1. japanese language changes more than the english language
2. Slang is ever evolving. If you put jingai into the translator i wonder if it would translate foreigner.
3. They've never worked for me. Studying the language yourself is better.
4. You lose it/ run out of batteries.

so in point buy a dictionary and a verb book. thejapanesepage.com boasts about one they have but i'm not going to buy into what they are saying.

[BamaFan2989]

Ok, listen I don't mean to sound "mean", but just stfu please. Mike you always approach with the same thing. You know Christmas is the part of the year that I actually get a lot of stuff that I need. Unlike your kids, which I infer are spoiled, I have to usually save or wait. I am also trying to get the texts, plus I have been trying to find a paper dictionary. It's not like it would hurt to have both. On the other hand though, with the nice post by Kamisama, he has sorta swayed me not to get the ET Dictionary. Your point about the change and the slang changed my mine. Later on though, I might use some Palm program or something! ^^ ありがとう

Brad

[TwistedMac]

I don't see how the slang would play in...

Your dictionary doesn't update itself any more than the wordtank does.. actually, with the wordtank i'm pretty sure you can add words manually. the wordtank is like an extremely fast dictionary i guess... ofcourse for that price, I'd want it to read my mind and print out the answers on golden sheets...

[Mike Cash]

I don't see how my post was any less nice than the one from Kamisama, but if you want me to stfu, I'll be more than happy to. Best of luck on your Japanese studies, and I hope in the future you learn to be a bit more gracious in accepting kind words of advice from people who have already stumbled over the boulders and potholes in the road to learning Japanese and attempt to point them out to you.

[BamaFan2989]

yeah, but with the features don't you think that it would be a good investment? I don't know. Someone told me that it is good for people learning and experienced. I think it is a good investment, but I am going to wait and get the paper first.

Mike that's the thing, you just start saying that this is how you should do it. I mean your help would be great, but you always put it in (what seems to be over the internet)sarcastic terms. Santy Claus..... and all that crap!

[jt_]

BamaFan, you're free to listen to who you want to listen to, but telling someone like Mike who clearly was genuinely trying to be helpful (not to mention offering you some damn good advice, whether you realize it or not) to "stfu" doesn't reflect too well on you. Then again, maybe that "stfu" was meant to include me as well -- in that case, I'll gladly shut up for you as well.

On the other hand, am I the only one who thought Kamisama's post didn't make any sense at all? (...not to mention sounding slightly obnoxious.) I would hope that you don't base any future decisions on whether or not to buy an electronic dictionary (which can be very useful as a reference if you have the knowledge to use it properly) on such meaningless arguments.

[BamaFan2989]

well first off jt, i wasn't talking to you. you sounded as nice as kamisama. like you two said, everyone on here has their opinions. all three of you posted them. kamisama might have sounded a little bit rude or obnoxious, but many people here do. i thought he had a good point. mike has posted like that before. things like "santy claus" "mom is still willing to kick out the bill" and saying things about " i wonder if you approach everything in your life like that." i know he is really good with japanese, and he is a high member, also he is older but like age matters all the time, but he didn't have to be so sarcastic or whatever. they may just be what kinda person he is, but i don't see how people like it. it's my opinion and the stfu was just like a saying. if i told onw of my classmates "you are retarded" do you think they are going to get all worked up about it? anyway, i have decided to go with the paper dictionary, and i am on the other forum asking about the JFBP series. so..... matane!

Brad

[TwistedMac]

On the other hand, am I the only one who thought Kamisama's post didn't make any sense at all?
nah, I'm there with ya.

i'd go so far as to say:
1. a)you did a survey or used your infinite knowledge? b)so what?
2. so what?
3. what do you think you're doing with a wordtank? downloading the knowledge to your brain?
4. I've got this policy where I try not to go around misplacing stuff that costs 200-300dollars... what does losing it have to do with anything? you can lose ANYTHING.. and the batteries... well... there's a real conundrum... what to do when batteries run out after a year or whatever time it is they last in those things?...

[BamaFan2989]

there are few reasons why electronic dictionaries suck.

1. japanese language changes more than the english language
2. Slang is ever evolving. If you put jingai into the translator i wonder if it would translate foreigner.
3. They've never worked for me. Studying the language yourself is better.
4. You lose it/ run out of batteries.

so in point buy a dictionary and a verb book. thejapanesepage.com boasts about one they have but i'm not going to buy into what they are saying.


I mean is it that hard to get, ok here in english.....
"there are few reasons why electronic dictionaries suck.

1. japanese language changes more than the english language
2. Slang is ever evolving. If you put jingai into the translator i wonder if it would translate foreigner.
3. They've never worked for me. Studying the language yourself is better.
4. You lose it/ run out of batteries.

so in point buy a dictionary and a verb book. thejapanesepage.com boasts about one they have but i'm not going to buy into what they are saying"

is that better?

I mean it's not much to get, and yes i know i am a smarty, sorry. i don't mean to, but his post doesn't really have anything to do with it. it made sense to me and i started this topic....

[TwistedMac]

understood the statements, didn't understand why they held any kind of importance.

If you could get a wordtank that spoke (pronounced the words) that'd be golden... I'd buy that.

(I don't mean the wordtank should be golden.. i mean the idea of having one that did that would be golden)

[BamaFan2989]

oh, in that case, btw (thanks for not burning up), how the language updates more and stuff. then he made me think about the batteries, the extra expenses. and i thought about losing it. so i thought a book would be better. btw if anyone has any reccomendations on my other thread on the other forum please help!!! ^^

oops correction i didn't start this thread, but the arguement...

well forget the burning up part. it's all over mike is obviously finished with it. i thought it would be nice to have one. since it's ELECTRONIC cough new age cough cough. and it is really fast

[jt_]

Yes, you are being a "smarty." :) Of course, I wasn't saying that I was literally unable to comprehend was he was saying, but that his argument makes no sense, like TwistedMac pointed out above.

I'm not exactly sure Kamisama even knows what kind of electronic dictionary we're talking about. He calls it a "translator" and says it's better to "learn the language yourself" -- it sounds more like he's saying that automated translation software (like Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com)) "sucks" and is useless -- which is something I would be hard-pressed to disagree with. An electronic dictionary, on the other hand, is by no means supposed to serve as a substitute for actually learning the language, it's just a reference -- like a paper dictionary, except that it holds more information and makes it easier to look stuff up (and is more expensive, of course). I think anyone would admit that a good electronic dictionary can be a very worthwhile investment for an advanced learner who has the money to spend on one.

Anyway, I think it's a good decision that you've made to settle for a paper dictionary for the time being, though. Have you decided which one you're going to get? I would really recommend those Kodansha furigana dictionaries that I mentioned above.

[BamaFan2989]

What about the "All Romanized English-Japanese Dictionary"??? I like the sound of that one, but heard nothing about it.

[jt_]

What about the "All Romanized English-Japanese Dictionary"??? I like the sound of that one, but heard nothing about it.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with it. Is there any reason that you're so interested in getting a romanized dictionary? I'm not one of those people that will tell you that romanization will forever burn your eyes out if you take even one look at it, but still, I'd recommend that you memorize the kana early just to get over that "hump" and start getting used to the Japanese writing system(s).

The reason I recommended those Kodansha Furigana Dictionaries is because they have lots of good example sentences that show the words being used in context. I'd say that whatever dictionary you end up choosing, make sure it fits that one qualification at least.

All that being said, though, I have to say again that at this point in your studies, you'd be better off spending more time with a good textbook than a dictionary. Knowing lots of words doesn't really help you until you know how those words come together to form complete thoughts.

[BamaFan2989]

yes i understand, but with the friends i have now, i would use it. i understand completely i will look into that one and probabaly get it because i trust your reccomendation.

[IFRAN]

Now I know I dont post on this board very often, because there are more experienced people on the board. But to answer your question BamaFan, try, if possible to NOT used romaji, AT ALL. It is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy better to take the time to learn hiragana and katakana. Romaji can end up being a hinderance. So some personal advice from someone who has seen many a student follow the romaji path, try avoiding it, it will pay off in the end