Generic Japanese GF question: Offtopic about terms for racial groups

[TwistedMac]

What the hell is so funny about that? It is a site for African-Americans in Japan, is that so unbelievable? Why do you find humor in that?
what about just "africans"? O_o
or black people in europe?

or is it a closed society for only americans?

( serious question, don't take it wrong )

[King of Tokyo]

KoT: I LOVE you're sig and avatar.

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Heh. Thanks. I made it in paint seeing as I have no talent in Photoshop.. Nor do I even have Photoshop. And ofcourse included one of my favorite rappers. I like it anyway.. Heh.


what about just "africans"? O_o
or black people in europe?

or is it a closed society for only americans?

( serious question, don't take it wrong )

Heh.. I some how doubt that any member that is not American would be shunned away. I see you take things a little to literally.

[TwistedMac]

what is a black person in europe called anyway?..

african-european?... then is a white guy in africa a euro-african?

OHMIGAWD! i'm having deep thoughts here..

wait, I've heard "Eur-asian" before but i dunno what it is.. so is that europeans in asia?

always asumed it was the offspring of an asian and a european person :?

[Mike Cash]

what is a black person in europe called anyway?..

african-european?... then is a white guy in africa a euro-african?

OHMIGAWD! i'm having deep thoughts here..

wait, I've heard "Eur-asian" before but i dunno what it is.. so is that europeans in asia?

always asumed it was the offspring of an asian and a european person :?

I remember hearing an American reporter doing a report from Africa and referring to the people there as "African-Americans", when he had to differentiate the dark-skinned people from the Caucasians.

[EscaFlowne]

:souka: ..............

What does it even matter about being called African to African-American or
Euro. It was a general comment to describe where that person was from. I think you guys are taking it too far and will probally end up offending someone, so you should probally stop while your ahead.

:balloon:

[dreamer]

Errr...do you feel concerned Esca? O_o

[EscaFlowne]

:relief: Nope just commenting ya know. I mean all tha blah blah blah blah gets on my nerves when there could be something more consructive to talk about for example the reason for the thread instead of something as small as the difference between African-American, african-european,euro-African.... :p lord you guys have a wild imagination...euro-african...i nerver even heard of that :p

[dreamer]

rofl
It reminds me of the face of those japanese people when they asked me where I came from and when I answered that I was french :p

[antantrevolution]

You know, I remember a time when it was ok to say simple terms such as white, black, asian and heaven forbid mexican or spanish without having to bring up a fricking geneology chart to figure out who is african american twice removed but again added by way of marraige and being the sister's brother's cousin's girlfriend who works at 31 flavours that saw ferris pass out last night.

God, political correctness is moronic.

As long as you aren't being rude or racist, can't we all get along and keep it simple?

And whe the hel did blacksploitation cinema such as shaft and cleopatra jones get turned into soul cinema?

I do not understand, ah well.

Ant

[Mike Cash]

Are you familiar with Dr. Walter E. Williams and his personal opinion on the matter of a self-referent term as relates to his skin color?

[TwistedMac]

Are you familiar with Dr. Walter E. Williams and his personal opinion on the matter of a self-referent term as relates to his skin color?
is that some "I get to say it, but you don't" thing?

[antantrevolution]

I don't know, but all I can say is that the US has become a 'verbal minefield' where one misstep can really do a number on you. It's insane. Should I be called European American because I have ancestors from Germany? Hell no, I'm born here so I am American. And I am white. Simple as that.

And people should judge their own self worth, not hide behind political correctness to do so.

Ant

[Mike Cash]

is that some "I get to say it, but you don't" thing?

No, far from it. Dr. Williams is an African-American who refers to himself as "black". It took me a while to find the quote, but here it is:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/01/language.html
Today, it has become fashionable to refer to me as an African-American. I protest. One reason is that I risk being confused with an American of Egyptian or Afrikaner ancestry since both can legitimately be called African-Americans. Another reason is that I'm simply tired and worn out, not to mention the confusion for white people. Being 65, I've gone through a number of name changes that range from derogative names such as coon and nigger, to colored, person of color, Negro, Afro-American, and black. I refuse to change again and I'm going to leave this world as a black man.

[antantrevolution]

Thanks for that post Mike.

I just want all to know that what I say is not racist, I am just tired of the frightening rate in which our country took to political correctness. Christ, it seems that in another five years, everything will be as generic as that damned Star Trek show. Maybe next is numbers for everyone so that nobody will feel left out.

Ant

[okaeri_man]

i think the phrase "why be politically correct when you can be correct?" sums it up well.

[Mike Cash]

I left the US before that PC BS really got started good. And I am glad to have missed it.

[Glenn]

Is it just me, or is the changing of referring to black people from "black" to "African-American" just some artificial and cosmetic way for politicians to attempt to show that they are affecting some sort of change that will help the plight of the black person in America, while at the same time making the language more inefficient and inaccurate, and creating a double standard for different groups of people? I mean, really, what's the point of the change in the first place? I can understand changing from the heavily emotinally charged words like "coon" and "nigger," and even "negro," which created a double standard due to it coming from a foreign language when "black" was and is the way we say it in everyday use, but how is "black" such a bad word? I'm not going to get beat up if I say that someone is black, so obviously it isn't all that bad. In fact, the only people who think it is are the people who bought in to the whole politically correct nonsense in the first place.

This discussion is stupid, but not because people are "taking things too literally." This discussion is stupid because it is one that should never have even been conceivably possible. TwistedMac asked a valid question from outside the scope of political correctness, because he's lucky in that he lives in a country that hasn't been affected by political correctness trying to impose unnatural changes on language (or at least that seems to be the case).

It seems to me to be the epitome of all things politic to come up with some stupid rule change in language that doesn't really matter, but is just there for PR. If politicians really wanted to help black people, then they should work on coming up with programs that will guarantee that black people have all of the opportunities for success that everyone else should have, instead of going off on some irrelevant tangent. If someone can show me cold hard evidence that using "African-American" has directly and on its own made the world any less racist than it was when we were saying "black," I will consider changing my position. However, I highly doubt that anyone could come up with such evidence.

[Fantt]

Usually, the race of a person is irrelevant unless you need to describe them to someone else. And even in that case sometimes it's pretty difficult to do. Is Lenny Kravitz white or black? His parents were one of each. I know plenty of other examples of people who are really difficult to peg as being one race or another. Back in the bad ole' days, anyone with the slightest bit of African DNA was just "black."

I try very hard to use non-racial terms when speaking about someone else. I'd rather say, "He's the new guy that always dresses really nice and he wears glasses" than "He's that black guy."

[antantrevolution]

@ Glenn - I agree that this type of discussion should never have to take place. Sadly, our forefathers set this political correctness phase up for us a long time ago through their mistreatment of anyone not white.

PC isn't going to go away unless we can all get along and stop labeling things.

Anywho.

Ant

[Elizabeth]

[RANT]

Is it just me, or is the changing of referring to black people from "black" to "African-American" just some artificial and cosmetic way for politicians to attempt to show that they are affecting some sort of change that will help the plight of the black person in America, while at the same time making the language more inefficient and inaccurate, and creating a double standard for different groups of people?
What politicians are you referring to as promoting these referential changes in the language ? As I recall, it was blacks themselves that argued for African American that would reflect a higher awareness of ethnic identity, assert ancestral or group pride, etc., although a majority today seem to prefer 'black' over the newer terms. As "Indians" prefer that to "Native American," for whatever reasons that will continue to fluctuate every generation or so. :okashii:

[bossel]

PC isn't going to go away unless we can all get along and stop labeling things.
Labelling things or people is not necessarily bad. People fit in certain categories, so what. It would be better to educate the world that people are not necessarily less worth than you just because they are different (belong to another category).

[TwistedMac]

Labelling things or people is not necessarily bad. People fit in certain categories, so what. It would be better to educate the world that people are not necessarily less worth than you just because they are different (belong to another category).
yeah, Like I'm a Swede and Bossel is German.. ok, now that's a bad example since that in facto makes me worth more than him...

.... just kidding!... if you didn't get that you need to be spanked!

but seriously, each person fits into a multitude of categories, depending on nationality, skin colour, hair colour, eye colour, sexual preference, shoe-size, mental stability, social status, type of computer one uses and a million other things.

Why do we keep getting stuck on the question wether someone is better or worse as a direct effect of a category you happen to fit into?

It's irrelevant and petty.

[Winter]

..As "Indians" prefer that to "Native American," for whatever reasons that will continue to fluctuate every generation or so. :okashii:

I've not noticed this.

When I was growing up, I lived sporadically in San Francisco, and in my fathers' rez in Arizona, and never once growing up with his tribe did I ever hear anyone refer to themself as Indian or Native American. It was always the tribe.

Last time I remember, Indians hailed from a certain country in Asia.

[Elizabeth]

:okashii: I've not noticed this.

When I was growing up, I lived sporadically in San Francisco, and in my fathers' rez in Arizona, and never once growing up with his tribe did I ever hear anyone refer to themself as Indian or Native American. It was always the tribe.

Last time I remember, Indians hailed from a certain country in Asia. I don't claim any inside sources, but from Wikipedia, people I've met travelling over the years as well as the new memorial in Washington to the American Indian rather than Native American. :blush: Of course the labels they refer to themselves are going to be much more relaxed than what is appropriate from outsiders, just as blacks can use racist language for themselves that would be totally derogatory from a white or Jew or Hispanic or whatever. :okashii:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American

[TwistedMac]

a white or Jew or Hispanic or whatever. :okashii:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American
aren't jews and hispanic people white? O_o

hispanic are the spanish descendants, right?...

or is it White=aryan?

[bossel]

aren't jews and hispanic people white? O_o

hispanic are the spanish descendants, right?...

or is it White=aryan?
Hispanic & Jews can be of all races, actually. I think, Hispanic in the US mostly just means from South- or Meso-America. Judaism is just a religion, anyway (mostly Caucasoid members, but not only).

But it's sometimes really interesting how this all gets confused (esp. in the US, though it may happen everywhere). I suspect that Elizabeth fell prey to that confusion.

[Glenn]

Usually, the race of a person is irrelevant unless you need to describe them to someone else...

...I try very hard to use non-racial terms when speaking about someone else. I'd rather say, "He's the new guy that always dresses really nice and he wears glasses" than "He's that black guy."

I agree with you, and I try to do the same thing.

What politicians are you referring to as promoting these referential changes in the language ? As I recall, it was blacks themselves that argued for African American that would reflect a higher awareness of ethnic identity, assert ancestral or group pride, etc., although a majority today seem to prefer 'black' over the newer terms.

Well, I tried to find it, but I couldn't. All I know is that I remember hearing on the news that politicians were talking about making it so that people had to refer to others in as gentle a way as possible, and using "African-American" was one of the new terms (but maybe it wasn't). Sorry if that's not accurate, but the point remains that it's still an artificial and cosmetic solution to the lack of unity among black people. For example, exactly how has the black community become any more aware of their ethnic identity, or asserted any more ancestral or group pride as a direct result of referring to themselves as "African-American?" Show me some evidence, and like I said, I'll consider changing my position.

Also, black people aren't the same everywhere. Why would they try to group all of them together into one general group in order to create unity? I doubt that a black person in the suburbs of New York City is going to be grouped in the same way as a black person living in South Central L.A., or a black person living in rural Kansas as human beings. Saying that they think the same way and have the same hopes and desires in life just because they both happen to be black is just plain stupid. My point is they were wrong in thinking that they could create unity by changing the way that they're referred to when the status quo was accurate (at least as far as "white" is), and includes all black people, not just ones from America. The name is inaccurate and its introduction seems to me to have been pointless, even though the intentions were good. Here is what I mean by being inaccurate:

Recent black immigrants from Africa and the islands of the Caribbean are sometimes classified as African Americans. However, these groups, especially first- and second-generation immigrants, often have cultural practices, histories, and languages that are distinct from those of African Americans born in the United States. For example, Caribbean natives may speak French, British English, or Spanish as their first language. Emigrants from Africa may speak a European language other than English or any of a number of African languages as their first language. Caribbean and African immigrants often have little knowledge or experience of the distinctive history of race relations in the United States. Thus, Caribbean and African immigrants may or may not choose to call themselves African American.

Also, Dr. Williams said,

Today, it has become fashionable to refer to me as an African-American. I protest. One reason is that I risk being confused with an American of Egyptian or Afrikaner ancestry since both can legitimately be called African-Americans.

If they just want to refer to black America as "African-American" to further subdivide themselves, then it's still not as accurate as "black American." So I'm missing the point as to why anyone would say that black people should be referred to as "African-American." I will grant that the tie-in with politicians seems flimsy at best without my being able to provide any evidence of my own, but I could have sworn that that was its origin (which is why I'm holding on to "flimsy").

I think that the situation with "Indian" is quite a bit different. It wasn't some forced change on the language, but a misunderstanding of location that caused this misnomer, as far as I know. Confusion is then created when we say "Indian," because is it someone from India or someone from a native tribe of America (Canadian tribes also get included in this, if I'm not mistaken)? Even "American Indian" is confusing, because are we talking about an immigrant from India who has come to America, or are we talking about someone from a native tribe?

[antantrevolution]

Labelling things or people is not necessarily bad. People fit in certain categories, so what. It would be better to educate the world that people are not necessarily less worth than you just because they are different (belong to another category).

You know Bossel, I was going to make a historical reference you wouldn't be too happy with to address the last part of your paragraph, but I think it'd be in bad taste. So I will say this.

Having too many labels IS a bad thing because it dilutes the true meaning of who we are as induviduals. Why does a black person feel they need to be called African American to feel more tied into their roots? Wouldn't being black, American and being proud of those things be enough? Hell, I think that black people should be proud that those before them had to endure so much in order to get to where they are today. We don't need fancy name changes to feel better about ourselves, we need to be happy with ourselves to do that.

Anyway, I am done with this thread.

Peace.

Ant

[Elizabeth]

Hispanic & Jews can be of all races, actually. I think, Hispanic in the US mostly just means from South- or Meso-America. Judaism is just a religion, anyway (mostly Caucasoid members, but not only).

But it's sometimes really interesting how this all gets confused (esp. in the US, though it may happen everywhere). I suspect that Elizabeth fell prey to that confusion.
No, I was speaking more from a sociological angle, although we do have the "non-Hispanic white" ethnic category on many official forms (such as the Census), obviously Hispanics are black, white, Indian and various mixtures.

If they just want to refer to black America as "African-American" to further subdivide themselves, then it's still not as accurate as "black American." So I'm missing the point as to why anyone would say that black people should be referred to as "African-American." I will grant that the tie-in with politicians seems flimsy at best without my being able to provide any evidence of my own, but I could have sworn that that was its origin (which is why I'm holding on to "flimsy").
I dare say "African American" would not continue to be used so widely by politicians, blacks themselves or anyone else if it were even slightly offensive. When speaking of the group as a whole I personally try to use whatever seems most current at the time, which now seems to be black.

[Elizabeth]

Even "American Indian" is confusing, because are we talking about an immigrant from India who has come to America, or are we talking about someone from a native tribe?
Wouldn't immigrants be Indian Americans ?

[bossel]

You know Bossel, I was going to make a historical reference you wouldn't be too happy with to address the last part of your paragraph, but I think it'd be in bad taste.
I don't think, you could make me unhappy with any historical reference. I study history, I've seen it all. :p

Having too many labels IS a bad thing because it dilutes the true meaning of who we are as induviduals.
Nope. The true meaning of who we are is in ourselves. If people use labels others gave them for identity building then either something's wrong with their psyche or with their education.

Wouldn't being black, American and being proud of those things be enough?
1st you criticize labelling, now you say people should even be proud of some of those labels. :?
Why should people be proud for just belonging to some category? They should better be proud of their individual achievements rather than on some blurry collective identity.

[Glenn]

Wouldn't immigrants be Indian Americans ?

I suppose so. Well, I'm not sure what the term is, but I think that both are ambiguous if there're both going to have "Indian" in them. But you're probably right about that.

Why should people be proud for just belonging to some category? They should better be proud of their individual achievements rather than on some blurry collective identity.

That is pretty much the point in what I was saying about using "African-American" in the first place.

[antantrevolution]

Hey, not to break off the subject... but does anyone want cake? I'm gonna go get some cake.

Ant

[bossel]

That is pretty much the point in what I was saying about using "African-American" in the first place.
Yeah, I know, but since I agree I cannot really argue with you.
:D

Just for the sake of argument (well, not really, I'm genuinely interested):
Even "American Indian" is confusing, because are we talking about an immigrant from India who has come to America, or are we talking about someone from a native tribe?
Isn't Amerindian a nice compromise?
Native American is not really an exact term either, or is it?
First, is it only for those living in the US or all of America (IE the continent)?
2nd, native means something like "born in" or "originating from". Since most people in the US have been born there, they all are natives.
Wouldn't it then be more logical to call the aboriginals (being the first or earliest known of its kind present in a region) as such: American Aboriginals or Aboriginal Americans?

Amerindians may not be aboriginal everywhere on that continent, but since possible older populations either died out or have been assimilated long ago, that wouldn't be much of a problem. I would still prefer the term Amerindian, though (sounds better & is shorter).



No, I was speaking more from a sociological angle, although we do have the "non-Hispanic white" ethnic category on many official forms (such as the Census), obviously Hispanics are black, white, Indian and various mixtures.
Just another thing which I forgot yesterday.
If you spoke from a "sociological angle" does that mean that even black Hispanics or Jews could not use the same racist expressions that other blacks could?

[sabro]

Hispanics- socio-political land mine- Mexican, Latino, Latin American, Chicano, Mestizo? Hispanic is a vague term relating to having a Spanish last name and an origen in a Latin American country (Excluding Carribean Islands). It may mean European and indigeneous American blood..

I used to be half oriental and half occidental, then I became Asian/European. I could be Yellow/White, or Anglo-Japanese.

My wife is Creole-Mexican. She was never Black-Chicano by choice. She could be kinda French-Afro-Native American-European or Black-Franco-Mestizo.

So this makes our two boys...American.

I love it when people tell me we should go back where we came from. It means we get to travel.

[Winter]

Hispanics- socio-political land mine- Mexican, Latino, Latin American, Chicano, Mestizo? Hispanic is a vague term relating to having a Spanish last name and an origen in a Latin American country (Excluding Carribean Islands). It may mean European and indigeneous American blood..

I used to be half oriental and half occidental, then I became Asian/European. I could be Yellow/White, or Anglo-Japanese.

My wife is Creole-Mexican. She was never Black-Chicano by choice. She could be kinda French-Afro-Native American-European or Black-Franco-Mestizo.

So this makes our two boys...American.

I love it when people tell me we should go back where we came from. It means we get to travel.


I like to call myself Chexican *Chinese Mexicano*. But that leaves out the other thousands of ethnicities roaming in my tainted, and impure blood.


On another note, I great remark in your final sentance.

[sabro]

Lets hear it for the Mongrelized blood in this forum.

Tiger Woods was calling himself Caublanasian as a reference to his mixed background. Everyone wanted to claim him as their own. Now that he married some Amazonian Swedish model- are their children going to be...?

Halle Berry's mom is white, but she is often referred to as the first African American Best Actress winner.

Keanu Reeves, Lou Diamond Phillips, Vin Diesel- none fit the pure Aryan mold.

Mark Twain has a character named Roxanne in Puddin'head Wilson that is 1/16 black- and yet still a slave. She has a son on the same day her mistress dies giving birth. He is being raised along with his half brother- both blonde and blue eyed- with the difference in status and future apparent in every in every aspect of their existence. (I won't ruin the ending...)