Police Harassment [Archive]

shakehip

Dec 13, 2004, 17:25

Hi ! A few questions to anyone out there...

Are there any foreigners in Japan who've had problems with discrimination or harassment from police behaviour and would like to trade notes ?

Second, is there any clarification on the law in which Japanese police simply stop foreigners and young (even Japanese) people walking home (especially late at night ?) Is it constitutional ? In addition to having been stopped myself, they seem to just wait in the park and randomly stop people on a regular basis. Most recently I was "walking while white", completely sober, and had to endure a bit of questioning... I spoke to some friends and they said it wasn't because i was foreign, they do it to everyone... though I thought it was strange how the second I said, "Ich bin eine Amerikan," (in English) they let me go. I guess that automatically proved that I wasn't a rapist or a bank robber...

- - I also own a small business, and had to endure with some strange police tactics. A neighbor was conducting an "eigyo bogai" compaign by constantly calling the police against us... The police didn't want to come, so rather than go after the person for harassing us (they claimed the couldn't because they were calling anonymously) they tried to pressure us to close shop without siting any crimes. Apparently this is "normal" and perfectly legal... or is it ???

I admire the relative politeness of the Japanese police and low crime rate here, but I can't imagine that people don't have any issues with these random stops and the police claim that there are some laws that are not "black and white" and their right to "educate" and "mediate" in "grey" areas.

EP

Mike Cash

Dec 13, 2004, 22:01

New vocabulary item for you: "shokushitsu" (職質), short for "shokumu shitsumon"

From 警察官職務執行法 (the relevant law):

第二条
１
　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。
２
　その場で前項の質問をすることが本人に対して不利であり、又は交通の妨害になると認められる場合においては、質問するため、その者に付近の警察署、派出所若しくは駐在所に同行することを求めることがきる。
３
　前二項に規定する者は、刑事訴訟に関する法律の規定によらない限り、身柄を拘束され、又はその意に反して警察署、派出所もしくは駐在所に連行され、若しくは答弁を強要されることはない。
４
　警察官は、刑事訴訟に関する法律により逮捕されている者については、その身体について凶器を所持しているかどうかを調べることができる。

shakehip

Dec 13, 2004, 22:35

Hi ! Wow, I understand about 70% of that... we just met and I communicate with you better than my wife ! ! ! But seriously, o.k. so would that justify "random stops", or for example stopping someone who's simply walking and dressed in the same manner as anyone else. - - As an example... there's this block and a turn that many people take to go home.... The police can usually be scene lingering at the part, then around the turn and usually they're questioning a person, usually younger, casually dressed people... obvoiusly not teenagers, but definitely young. In my case they were questioning one fellow, then when they were finished they biked after me... Actually, being from Philly when I heard a bike coming up behind me, I instinctively almost turned around and swung thinking I was about to get mugged, but then I remembered I'm in Japan, so I better look first... - - Now its true it was late at night, but its in an area where there are a lot of bars so a lot of the people aren't just customers of the bars, but people simply going home from work late at night... quite normal ? If I'm not mistaken, in the US random police stops are an "issue" but not quite illegal I believe (but I'm not a legal expert.) - - In all honesty, I thought the stop was a bit suspicious because the police had been pressuring us to close our shop (calling our house and shop) fairly regularly, so it was difficult to tell whether it was just a coincidence, or part of the harassment game.

PaulTB

Dec 14, 2004, 00:22

若しくは犯そう
You know when I first saw that I thought 'Looking young as if to commit a crime ...' :p

No but seriously, I've seen at least one newsgroup post where somebody (apparently) Japanese has misread 若し and been corrected by somebody else. :okashii:

But seriously, o.k. so would that justify "random stops", or for example stopping someone who's simply walking and dressed in the same manner as anyone else.
I dare say the law is vague enough that a suitable 'reason' can be thought up afterwards if required.

Elizabeth

Dec 14, 2004, 02:05

Second, is there any clarification on the law in which Japanese police simply stop foreigners and young (even Japanese) people walking home (especially late at night ?)
Yeah, and don't forget native cyclists -- not only foreign pedestrians get this police state treatment. My only experience was with a Japanese guy once on our way home from a karaoke box around 1 am when they pulled him over supposedly for a broken tail light which made them suspect the bike had been stolen. :? and asked for his registration card. Everything went smoothly, not sure what would have happened if he hadn't had the papers, but everyone is obviously very aware of the possibility they could be the next target so it was all quite routine.

shakehip

Dec 14, 2004, 02:24

Mike Cash

Dec 14, 2004, 04:02

One very important thing to keep in mind:

<obscure_allegory>
Every time I buy hamburgers at McDonald's in Japan, they hand the bag to a white guy. Happens every single time I go there.
</obscure_allegory>

Elizabeth

Dec 14, 2004, 07:16

Oh that happened to me too once... I didn't have my headlight on and I was riding my mother-in-law's bike...so the bike had the name in Kanji... But I can understand that.... I mean, I don't look Japanese obviously... and recently I learned the hard way how dangerous it is not to have your headlights on when you ride your bike recently. I was driving my "mamchari" a bit too quick a few weeks ago... looked both ways before crossing, and some guy didn't have his headlights on... didn't see him and WHAM... luckily no one got hurt. But ever since I got pulled over for not having the lamp on, I've made sure to have it on every time...!
That's a good point....I hadn't considered the safety aspect. The weird thing was that it wasn't a ticket or warning or anything, though. The only justification was to verify this bike wasn't stolen property. Another lone, over-zealous vigilante taking the law into his own hands.... :-)

Kamisama

Dec 14, 2004, 10:01

Foreigners should learn karate and be all like...

Omae yaru ka??

and then just say it over and over again until the person touches you.

And then bust out on the person.

Even if they touch your shoulder or pat you..

One very important thing to keep in mind:

<obscure_allegory>
Every time I buy hamburgers at McDonald's in Japan, they hand the bag to a white guy. Happens every single time I go there.
</obscure_allegory>

Mike i would be all like... Nihonjin yo!! Nihonjin wo kudasai!!

PaulTB

Dec 17, 2004, 19:30

Mike i would be all like... Nihonjin yo!! Nihonjin wo kudasai!!
I think you have misunderstood Mike's not really very obscure at all allegory.

Xert

Dec 19, 2004, 12:41

Mike Cash

Dec 19, 2004, 13:14

Remember the scene in "City Slickers" where they arrive at the ranch and meet the father-and-son dentists?

Phil Berquist: Where are you from?
Ben Jessup: Baltimore. We have a dental practice there.
Mitch Robbins: Really, you're both dentists?
Steve Jessup: Yes! We're black AND we're dentists. Let's not make an issue out of it.
Ben Jessup: Eh, they're not making an issue of it. You're making an issue of it.

Which goes along with my obscure allegory quite well, I think.

Reyter

Aug 19, 2009, 19:02

Does anyone have info on the laws? I used to be harrassed by the police (stopped, asked to show my ID and questioned for absolutely no reason other than having white skin.) and did some research on what my rights are. I seem to remember reading that they must have a legitimate reason and simply having white skin isnt enough. This is easy to get around for the fascist police. They can just say something like "a foreigner was just reported smashing a window" or some such nonsense. In that case you have to show them but you have the right to first see their ID.

A few evenings ago, an aquaintence of mine was in a little trouble over an absurdly trivial affiar (accused of throwing a glass of water in the park and wetting someone. Of course this is probably true but given the fact that there were literally, about 50 Japanese people doing the same thing at the same time......... this guy was VERY unamused!). Anyway, I was there and as I speak a little Japanese the fascist police and the guy in question asked me to help out. I did so only to be then hit up and asked to show my own ID for inspection. I asked the fascist to show his ID first and he refused (I was surrounded by at least 10 of them at this point.) so I refused to show mine.

I eventually relented because I know that a number of laws changed this year and wasnt sure if this was one. Is this one of the laws that changed? Do foreigners have the right to first ask the fascists to show their ID?

pipokun

Aug 19, 2009, 19:40

...
(accused of throwing a glass of water in the park and wetting someone. Of course this is probably true but given the fact that there were literally, about 50 Japanese people doing the same thing at the same time......... this guy was VERY unamused!).
...

If they all got drunk and challenged the fascist then, I can understand your situation.
But if you did it without any sake, I am humbly asking you how old those 50 people are.

I sometimes see a criticism against Japan and the Japanese, "Everybody Does" mentality, but I feel quite assured tonight that everybody, Japanese or non-Japanese, has and likes it.

Reyter

Aug 19, 2009, 23:33

No one challeneged the fascists at first. The people throwing the water were mostly young. I didnt look carefully. I saw them all throwing water so I got out of the way and the next thing I know this guy was asking me to help out because I could speak a little Japanese.

Some Japanese guy grabbed the foreigner and said "you wet me" and demanded compensation. The foreigner refused and the Japnese grabbed a policeman who must have been nearby and he then called half the force to the park. Also, the guy who got wet was hardly wet. I noticed his right side sleeve was wet and he was wearing a t-shirt so his arm must have gotten wet as well. The police admitted early on that they couldnt charge him as the only witnesses made a statement to say the foreigner did nothing wrong. They still held him for about 5 hours trying to get him to pay compensation.

That isnt really the issue anyway. I urged the guy not to just let it go and to try to find out if there was any facility in which he could lodge a complaint but that isnt my business. I am wondering if anyone knows my rights. (If I have any. Fascist police obviously believe they can act with impunity. )

Glenski

Aug 20, 2009, 07:23

Does anyone have info on the laws? I used to be harrassed by the police (stopped, asked to show my ID and questioned for absolutely no reason other than having white skin.) and did some research on what my rights are. I seem to remember reading that they must have a legitimate reason and simply having white skin isnt enough. This is easy to get around for the fascist police. They can just say something like "a foreigner was just reported smashing a window" or some such nonsense. In that case you have to show them but you have the right to first see their ID.It's not nonsense as long as the alleged complaint was real.

I asked the fascist to show his ID first and he refused (I was surrounded by at least 10 of them at this point.) so I refused to show mine.
I eventually relented because I know that a number of laws changed this year and wasnt sure if this was one. Is this one of the laws that changed? Do foreigners have the right to first ask the fascists to show their ID?I have not heard of any change to this one. If they show you theirs, you must show yours. Confirm any changes on www.debito.org .

Reyter

Aug 20, 2009, 10:00

Thats the point. Who am I to say and how can I prove the complaint isnt real? One could only rely on honest cops or strongly anti-fascist cops willing to report the fascists. From my experience the chances of either in Japan are very slim.....

Chidoriashi

Aug 20, 2009, 11:24

I hear of people having trouble with the police, but honestly I have been here more than 5 years and am out and about on my bike all the time and I have only been stopped 3 times. The first time they were looking for illegal foreigners (not sure if that is legal but whatever). The second time was the next day in the same area with a different cop, and right when I was stopped I starting complaining about being stopped the previous day, and he immediately sent me on my way, no questions asked. And the 3rd time I was riding niketsu (two people on one bike) with my girlfriend which is illegal, and I just played dumb. They checked my ID and told me to stop doing that and sent us on our way. So in reality 97 times out of about 100 the police have just ignored me. So I'm not sure if people are over exaggerating or making themselves sound more innocent than they actually are, or if they just live in an area with abusive cops, but I personally have no problems with the Japanese police.

Reyter

Aug 20, 2009, 12:59

Chidoriashi

Aug 20, 2009, 13:33

Sounds to me you dont mind fascsits picking you out for random I.D. checks only because you have white skin. I bet you are also anti-unions. I mind that but this is still beside the point in this case.
Does anyone know if the fascist policeman must show his ID when trying to see mine and when asked to show his own? If so, does anyone know any facility whereby I can lodge an offical complaint?
I am so tired tired a fascist Japanese police thinking they can act with impuity in regard to foreigners.

First of all, do not suppose that you know anything about me, because you don't.

Have you ever thought for a moment you might be over reacting? Tell me why is it that I have seen Japanese people getting stopped at random and I can just go on by? Do you really think that you are always being singled out? The fact is Japanese people get stopped at random too. My girlfriend, who is Japanese, was asked to show her ID to the police as well when they stopped me. I am sorry that you seem to be having such dire troubles with the police though. I simply have never experienced it in that way. Now if I was getting stopped like 10 times a year and it was always because I was a foreigner I might have an issue. In any case if this is really that big of a deal to you I would suggest you go on down to your local city hall and ask them. Or research some of the links other posters have already given to you.

pipokun

Aug 20, 2009, 20:01

I hear of people having trouble with the police,
...

Chidori, the Reyter's case is a bit different from yours, mine or Bob Dylan in the US that his friend made a trouble first. Though I am just wondering how many Japanese cops recognize Bob Dylan, the fascist cops surely and equally do the same thing if he would wet strangers in Japan.

Reyter, I hope that you don't have any complaint of the public intoxication friendly situation here. I highly appreciate your cooperation to retain our right, getting drunk (but not too much to stay away from the stupidity).
Happy drinking!

Reyter

Aug 21, 2009, 00:25

The guy isnt really my friend, just a guy I know and he absolutely didnt make trouble first. Lots of people were throwing water (not enough to cause anyone any trouble and it was isolated to one small corner.) and he joined in but was obviously singled out due to having white skin. Dont say it was anything to do with intoxication. It was simply due to the Japanese police force being a fascist organization! At first i was also doing my best translating for the fascists themselves.

I have since done research and what I thought was true is still. The fascists dont have the right to ask to see your ID simply because you have white skin. They must suspect you of involvement in a crime. This is easy to get around for the fascsts as they can just make something up but you absolutely have the right to see thier ID before showing your own.

pipokun

Aug 21, 2009, 20:45

Write a letter of complaint to your local public safety commission.
Following should be included:
1. Your name, address and telephone number
2. In case you would like to receive the result of your petion at the different address, write the contact address, name, address and telephone number
3. Summarize the fascist conduct/duty causing you to file the petition incl. the date and the place
4. Specify the disadvantageous fact(s) of yours , unfair treatment(s) by the police duty or how much the police officer did fascist-like behavior
http://www.kouaniinkai.metro.tokyo.jp/osirase.html

If memory serves, the Glenski's favorite guy, debito, also filed a petition after being questioned by a cop on the special occasion, G-8 summit in Hokkaido, and his great advantage was that he recorded the conversation with the cop. But so far (really sorry, if I am wrong), I've never heard of anything new like his filing a lawsuit against the notice. Though only thing I clearly remember is the way the fascist spoke was quite soft and well-mannered, you can get more info how to write a letter from him.

FrustratedDave

Aug 21, 2009, 21:01

The guy isnt really my friend, just a guy I know and he absolutely didnt make trouble first. Lots of people were throwing water (not enough to cause anyone any trouble and it was isolated to one small corner.) and he joined in but was obviously singled out due to having white skin. Dont say it was anything to do with intoxication. It was simply due to the Japanese police force being a fascist organization! At first i was also doing my best translating for the fascists themselves.
I have since done research and what I thought was true is still. The fascists dont have the right to ask to see your ID simply because you have white skin. They must suspect you of involvement in a crime. This is easy to get around for the fascsts as they can just make something up but you absolutely have the right to see thier ID before showing your own.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NcvyLOnshR0/SB0fwSM5SLI/AAAAAAAABbI/Mm63toP4WYQ/s400/elegant+WA+blah+copy.png

Mikawa Ossan

Aug 21, 2009, 22:21

I hear of people having trouble with the police, but honestly I have been here more than 5 years and am out and about on my bike all the time and I have only been stopped 3 times.
I lived in Japan longer than that, and I have only been stopped by the police from two to four times, depending how you count.
1) A long time ago, I was riding double on a scooter with my girlfriend (I was new to Japan at the time.) The officers took my passport number and then basically ignored me. My girlfriend, however, had to go inside the patrol car and received a ticket.
2) I was told be police in Shinjuku station that it's illegal to sit in the station. When I stood up, the officer left. (Didn't have to show I.D.)
3) I was waiting for a friend at night outside a Royal Host in Shinjuku. My friend was really late getting out of work, so I had to wait a long time in the dark. A police officer came and politely asked what I was doing. When I showed him my foreigner card, he was truly interested and chatted with me for a couple of minutes and explained the situation. Apparently he was doing his rounds and saw me a half hour earlier. It looked suspicious to him (understandably so!), so he decided to check me out.
4) I was speeding on the highway/tollway system. I admit it. The police were much nicer than the police were here in America when I got caught speeding as a teenager! lol
Other than that, the only experience I have had with the police is asking them for directions, playing volleyball with the town police officer, filing a police report once, being a passenger as my (Japanese) friend passed through a checkpoint looking for alcohol use, experiencing them working a crime scene, etc.
Yes, very fascist indeed. :okashii:

pipokun

Aug 21, 2009, 23:46

...
Yes, very fascist indeed. :okashii:

No, the authentic fascist is in Shibuya!
Salor Peta (http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/asia/090809/asi0908090801001-l6.jpg)
It seems a bit irony that there are more healthier onlookers, probably omnivorous ones, than the planet saving super heroines, but they showed off their a bit healthy bodies in front of a police box at the Hachiko Guchi, Shibuya.

I bet they must have been arrested if they had done in Akihabara like a Japanese woman, Asuka, claiming, "eternal 22 years old".

Reyter

Aug 22, 2009, 00:37

Well the facts are as I presented them in the posts above. Added to the blatant racial discrimination of my aquaitance the fascist blatantly ignored the law in first asking to see my ID when I wasnt suspected of involvement in any crime and then in demanding to see my ID but refusing to show his own!

I think point 3 says it all anyway. You were waiting in the dark outside Royal Host and you were happy to show the police your ID???? WTF???? Why did they even ask??? If you have white skin, it is flagrant racial profiling. And I dont care how nicely he speaks! Police must also obey the law but if are a lackey enough to just pass your ID over without question, they can continue to be good little fascists and ignore the law! If they did the same with a Japanese adult, 99% would ignore him!
That is precisely what the Japanese people did when Debito was hit up for ID and he said he would show it if the "very nicely spoken fascist" first asked some Asian people to show their ID. They just ignored him until getting pi##ed off he was following them and then turned to him and bascially told him to f##k off. Debito of course also refused to show his ID.

Anyway, do us white-skinned people who are not lackeys and expect police to obey the law, and dont just hand over your ID next time. Ask them if you are suspected of a crime and if they say anything like "no but in Japan police have the right to ask for ID from foreigners" refuse to show it. If they are smarter or just more persistent than the average fascist and then say you are a suspect in something, demand to see their ID first.

Having police obey the law and keeping their fascist inclinations at bay is in everyones interest including their own. As they are so nice to you, I presume you wouldnt like to see them in Siberian gulags.

FrustratedDave

Aug 22, 2009, 01:53

Well the facts are as I presented them in the posts above. Added to the blatant racial discrimination of my aquaitance the fascist blatantly ignored the law in first asking to see my ID when I wasnt suspected of involvement in any crime and then in demanding to see my ID but refusing to show his own!
I think point 3 says it all anyway. You were waiting in the dark outside Royal Host and you were happy to show the police your ID???? WTF???? Why did they even ask??? If you have white skin, it is flagrant racial profiling. And I dont care how nicely he speaks! Police must also obey the law but if are a lackey enough to just pass your ID over without question, they can continue to be good little fascists and ignore the law! If they did the same with a Japanese adult, 99% would ignore him!
That is precisely what the Japanese people did when Debito was hit up for ID and he said he would show it if the "very nicely spoken fascist" first asked some Asian people to show their ID. They just ignored him until getting pi##ed off he was following them and then turned to him and bascially told him to f##k off. Debito of course also refused to show his ID.
Anyway, do us white-skinned people who are not lackeys and expect police to obey the law, and dont just hand over your ID next time. Ask them if you are suspected of a crime and if they say anything like "no but in Japan police have the right to ask for ID from foreigners" refuse to show it. If they are smarter or just more persistent than the average fascist and then say you are a suspect in something, demand to see their ID first.
Having police obey the law and keeping their fascist inclinations at bay is in everyones interest including their own. As they are so nice to you, I presume you wouldnt like to see them in Siberian gulags.
Again I dirrect you to read this post,
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NcvyLOnshR0/SB0fwSM5SLI/AAAAAAAABbI/Mm63toP4WYQ/s400/elegant+WA+blah+copy.png

Reyter

Aug 22, 2009, 11:23

You are like an annoying little dog, nipping at my heels. To make matters worse, an annoying little police dog. I would give you are kick but then I would have the fascists themselves on my case.

Reyter

Aug 22, 2009, 12:22

And BTW I like Pink Floyd too. Do you lack the imagination to come up with your own little "witty" comment?

pipokun

Aug 22, 2009, 20:51

Reyter, I don't know where you are from or what your history education is like, but I recommend you should learn a bit more about the history or origin of fascist in Europe.

A Japanese diplomat was fascinated by the well-behaved young Italian fascist members fighting under the a big banner, morality, righteousness, or else.

Anyways, what in the world is the discrimination between...
a) the wetting guy caused the trouble
b) you, probably a white foreigner

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are so upset because your acquaintance was questioned by the police after the trouble, but so far you have never mentioned that you were also harassed then.
If the what you call fascist were really racial discrimination motivated ones, they should have tortured you.

Glenski

Aug 22, 2009, 22:05

pipokun

Aug 22, 2009, 22:47

You have apparently not read my post immediately before yours...
Totally illegal. Police cannot do that for Japanese citizens.

The husband of Noriko Sakai and Noriko Sakai herself (I know they are still suspects before convicted...)
I am curious how many Japanese could challenge the cop for two hours and leave the what you call illegal interrogation because he/she had to take care of their kids and run away from them for a week...

Chidoriashi

Aug 23, 2009, 08:35

You have apparently not read my post immediately before yours...

Totally illegal. Police cannot do that for Japanese citizens.

Whether it is legal or not I do not know, but it happens because I have witnessed it. And when my GF and I were stopped it was because we were riding 2 people on 1 bike so that gave them the right to stop us and ask for ID.

In any case I find that if you do not put yourself in situations where illegal activity could be going on or where drunken people are acting stupid and causing trouble for others, the police tend to leave you alone, ironically enough:blush:.

FrustratedDave

Aug 23, 2009, 11:04

You are like an annoying little dog, nipping at my heels. To make matters worse, an annoying little police dog. I would give you are kick but then I would have the fascists themselves on my case.
Woof, woof...

I will send you a box of tissues if you like?

I have to laugh at all the people who "think" they are being discriminated against here. If it is so bad here , why not go home? Oh , thats right there is nothing else to complain about so this will do. Keep up the good work, "your aces in my book!". LOL

Mike Cash

Aug 23, 2009, 11:23

Drop the ridiculous ad nauseum "fascist fascist fascist fascist fascist" nonsense and I will be a bit more inclined to treat your inquiry seriously. Sort of hard to have a rational discussion with a person so given to hyperbole and with such obvious prejudices....all the more so when they are founded upon a self-professed ignorance.

Did you bother to read any of this five year old thread before you hijacked it?

Reyter

Aug 23, 2009, 12:43

You are missing the point entirely. Firstly, I guess one could say my aquaintance was causing trouble but certainly not any more trouble (actually, considering he just joined in one could say it was less trouble) than any of the multitude of Japnese people. I think you also need to take into account the amount of water being thrown. It was literally, a glass full and anyone not wishing to get any water on him or her could have easily stayed away as I did.

I am so upset about the fact that the fascist police believe they can act with impunity in regard to foreigners. They broke the law twice in first asking to see my ID even when they fully knew I wasnt under any suspicion and I was only there to help out with translating and then in refusing to show their own even when directly requested to do so.

If you must know I'm from northern Europe but attended university in Australia. Please dont question my knowledge of the rise of fascism. After WW1 the masses returned from the front lines to find no jobs and poverty and the Russian Revolution of 1917 was looming in the background. Soviets were springing up across Europe and the Soviets in Germany and Hugary launched full-scale uprisings. Fascism at the time was a small movement in Italy and in desperation these were the people the ruling classes turned to. As you say "they were very well behaved" apart from arresting and/or killing people such as trade unionists, foreigners, journalists and pretty much anyone who dared speak out against them and of course, acting with absolute impunity to the laws protecting peoples rights in the various countries.

Reyter

Aug 23, 2009, 12:49

I'm just glad you have stopped babbling and finally said something of substance. Some kind of substance anyway but still ridiculously simplistic. I have nothing against Japan and Japanese people and my girlfriend is Japanese. I only dislike the police when it comes to their dealings with foreigners and if I continue to be treated unfairly simply because I have white skin, I will leave.

Reyter

Aug 23, 2009, 12:57

I "hijacked" this thread? Did anyone hold a gun to your head forcing you to reply to me? I could say "racially prejudiced police who act with impunity to the law" but fascist is much easier and yes, I read the enitre thread before posting any messages. At first I only wanted info on the laws. I still havent got it here but I got it elsewhere and then was polite enough to tell others who wish to know here.

So if you are stopped, asked to show ID and questioned simply because you have white skin, I hope you will take note of the law and not just comply. If they say you are a suspect, demand to see their ID before showing your own.

pipokun

Aug 23, 2009, 20:10

...
I still havent got it here but I got it elsewhere and then was polite enough to tell others who wish to know here.

Have you written a letter to the commission yet?

Reyter

Aug 23, 2009, 20:36

Have you written a letter to the commission yet?

No. I read that Debito wrote a letter to them (I think on another thread in this site.) after he was harrassed by the police for having white skin and absolutely nothing happened. If I did the same thing, as far as I can understand it would be far more likely that I would be harrassed more rather than any sort of disciplinary action against the fascists responsible!

caster51

Aug 23, 2009, 22:28

No. I read that Debito wrote a letter to them (I think on another thread in this site.) after he was harrassed by the police for having white skin and absolutely nothing happened. If I did the same thing, as far as I can understand it would be far more likely that I would be harrassed more rather than any sort of disciplinary action against the fascists responsible!

if you are smart, show your ID to fascist police .
he would understand it in 10seconds

The problem need not be enlarged by foolish
only activist does it

Reyter

Aug 23, 2009, 22:59

if you are smart, show your ID to fascist police .
he would understand it in 10seconds
The problem need not be enlarged by foolish
only activist does it

So I should disregard my rights and let police harrass me because I have white skin so there wont be any problems? Furthermore the police should be free to break the law pretty much whenever they like? And this would make me "smart"? I guess our perspectives are a little different. I believe that would make me a lackey dog and a complete idiot.

FrustratedDave

Aug 24, 2009, 11:04

So I should disregard my rights and let police harrass me because I have white skin so there wont be any problems? Furthermore the police should be free to break the law pretty much whenever they like? And this would make me "smart"? I guess our perspectives are a little different. I believe that would make me a lackey dog and a complete idiot.
Bottom line, they had every right to ask for ID, so you better read up on the laws over here a bit more b/c you obviously know jack . No laws were broken, but I guess the as the saying goes " A little information is dangerous.". And your ignorance does not give you the right say otherwise (the fact that you "think" your rights were infringed upon) Your friend was causeing trouble with someone (regardless of other peoples involvement, he was singled out by that man) so the police had every right to respond to the situation at hand to try to calm the situation down, so don't blame the police for doing their job.

You sound just like every other whining foreigner that can't accept the way things are here.

Mikawa Ossan

Aug 24, 2009, 12:10

Reyter

Aug 24, 2009, 18:04

What makes you think that?

Thats what he said in his blog.

Reyter

Aug 24, 2009, 19:38

Bottom line, they had every right to ask for ID,

No, thats not the bottom line. The bottom line is that you are a painful person. Isnt there some discussion board for you to go to in order to annoy people? Must you do it here?

FrustratedDave

Aug 24, 2009, 21:04

No, thats not the bottom line. The bottom line is that you are a painful person.
Yeah, I thought so... No rebuttal.

Isnt there some discussion board for you to go to in order to annoy people? Must you do it here?
But, I like talking to people like you.

Reyter

Aug 25, 2009, 10:29

In conclusion, I hope foreigners when they are stopped by the police for no reason other than having white skin, dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys.

If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported (doing something) nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.

On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.

Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious.

FrustratedDave

Aug 25, 2009, 13:11

In conclusion, I hope foreigners when they are stopped by the police for no reason other than having white skin, dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys.
If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported (doing something) nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.
On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.
Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious.
Go get em Reyte... Grrrr

Again , a baseless babel based on your ignorance to how the law works here.

ASHIKAGA

Aug 25, 2009, 13:24

...download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.

You could have cut to the chase and posted this in the first place and do away with the story about "your friend".

Reyter

Aug 25, 2009, 14:07

Go get em Reyte... Grrrr
Again , a baseless babel based on your ignorance to how the law works here.

Is there any specific reason why you dont want foreigners to know the law and to stop being harrassed by police for having white skin or is it just on principle?

Reyter

Aug 25, 2009, 14:12

You could have cut to the chase and posted this in the first place and do away with the story about "your friend".

As I have said several times. The guy isnt my friend, simply a guy I know and such an enquiry was my original reason for leaving a message here. I didnt know the law but wanted to know. I mostly only got idiotic comments here along with a few vague responses.

Anyway, if you have white skin, next time you are harrassed by the police simply because of this, I hope you will take note of what I posted about the law or go to Debitos website and read about it in detail.

FrustratedDave

Aug 25, 2009, 14:28

Is there any specific reason why you dont want foreigners to know the law and to stop being harrassed by police for having white skin or is it just on principle?
Look you don't know the law, so stop pretending that you do. In addition to the law presented in this thread there is another law called "Foreign Registry Law" and any officer of the government that works for law enforcement or Ministry of Justice with immigration , coast guard ect is entitled to ask for ID regardless if you were sitting in a park reading a book. So quit with crap that you are doing everyone a favour by saying that you don't have to present your ID. Read what it says below.

"外国人登録法　第十三条　第二項　外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法に定める入国警備官をいう）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の掲示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。"

A very rough translation.

"The Foreign Registry Law, Section 13, Clause 2. Foreigners, when asked to show ID by immigration investigation officials , police, coast guard, or any other national or local public official or group empowered by the Ministry of Justice as part of the execution of their duties, must show their ID when required to by an offical."

Like I said before, "A little information is dangerous".

But , you go ahead and refuse to show your card, b/c it just makes it harder for the rest of us.

Reyter

Aug 25, 2009, 15:21

Look you don't know the law, so stop pretending that you do. In addition to the law presented in this thread there is another law called "Foreign Registry Law" and any officer of the government that works for law enforcement or Ministry of Justice with immigration , coast guard ect is entitled to ask for ID regardless if you were sitting in a park reading a book. So quit with crap that you are doing everyone a favour by saying that you don't have to present your ID. Read what it says below.

"外国人登録法　第十三条　第二項　外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法に定める入国警備官をいう）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の掲示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。"

A very rough translation.

"The Foreign Registry Law, Section 13, Clause 2. Foreigners, when asked to show ID by immigration investigation officials , police, coast guard, or any other national or local public official or group empowered by the Ministry of Justice as part of the execution of their duties, must show their ID when required to by an offical."

Like I said before, "A little information is dangerous".

But , you go ahead and refuse to show your card, b/c it just makes it harder for the rest of us.

Makes it harder for the rest of "us"? To whom are you referring as "us"?

Anyway, I think that says it all. You got the info, probably from Debitos website, the very same information I was pointing people who wished to know to but you stopped after only the first paragraph. Why dont you copy and paste the "Police Execution of Duties Law Section 2" and/or The Foreign Registry Law, Section 13, Clause 3"???

Dont you want people to know about those laws?

Even though you annoy me greatly I will continue to let as many foreigners as possible know these laws and will continue to post them here and elsewhere no matter how much you spam.

FrustratedDave

Aug 25, 2009, 16:26

Makes it harder for the rest of "us"? To whom are you referring as "us"?
Anyway, I think that says it all. You got the info, probably from Debitos website, the very same information I was pointing people who wished to know to but you stopped after only the first paragraph. Why dont you copy and paste the "Police Execution of Duties Law Section 2" and/or The Foreign Registry Law, Section 13, Clause 3"???
Dont you want people to know about those laws?
Even though you annoy me greatly I will continue to let as many foreigners as possible know these laws and will continue to post them here and elsewhere no matter how much you spam.
People who have choosen to live and make a living here, people who have created roots here and people who do not want to be judged by society b/c of what a few people do.

And no I do not vist the site that he has, I got the information from here, some people do actually do their own homework.

http://law.e-gov.go.jp/htmldata/S27/S27HO125.html

And is it that you cannot read or do you just use selective reading? I said in my earlier post that "In addition to the law presented in this thread" which I will give you a link to so as to save confusion, http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13591
It is the second post down BTW. So why do I need to post that information that has already been discussed, and it has already been established that that an officer is also required to present their ID as well. Is this again your ignorance kicking in?

You said that you do not have to provide ID and I provided the information that requires you to regardless of what you or anyone else says. So stop spewing that verbal diarrhea that is comming from your mouth, b/c you have your facts wrong.

As for your last question , I don't care who knows these laws so you can go tell who ever you like.

Reyter

Aug 25, 2009, 16:42

Oh, so now you chose to live here and make a living here? Where else were you going to do this? Though I hate to be judged by waht other foreigners do. Especially when fascist police stop them to ask for I.D. only because they have white skin and the docile foreigners just hand it over without thinking or asking why and generally, without protecting their rights.

Now you are purposely putting words into my mouth? Hoping for this thread to degenerate into worthless babble? I guess it has already done that but never mind. Copying and pasting isnt much trouble.

In conclusion, I hope foreigners when they are stopped by the police for no reason other than having white skin, dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys.

If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported (doing something) nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.

On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.

Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious.

pipokun

Aug 25, 2009, 20:06

Did you write a letter of complaint?
When you have no time to google where you need to write to, I am glad to help you out. Just post the prefecture where you are living now.

FrustratedDave

Aug 25, 2009, 21:07

Oh, so now you chose to live here and make a living here? Where else were you going to do this? Yes, and your point is?
I don't need any more ignorant foreingers doing things and agrivating situations that may affect me in the future. Especially ones that will only be here for a short period of time.
Though I hate to be judged by waht other foreigners do. Especially when fascist police stop them to ask for I.D. only because they have white skin and the docile foreigners just hand it over without thinking or asking why and generally, without protecting their rights.
Bad luck buddy, a lot of what other foriegn people have in the past gives us a bad name. Congratulations for experencing it. (why do you keep saying white, there are other skin colored foriegners here too)
Now you are purposely putting words into my mouth? Hoping for this thread to degenerate into worthless babble? I guess it has already done that but never mind. Copying and pasting isnt much trouble.
You said "They broke the law twice in first asking to see my ID even when they fully knew I wasnt under any suspicion and I was only there to help out with translating and then in refusing to show their own even when directly requested to do so."

As I have explained earlier, they broke no laws as it is you who is saying they have not me. I even posted links for you to the begining of the thread and to Japanese law, what else could you ask for? So no, I am not putting words in your mouth. I await your response in this regard...
In conclusion, I hope foreigners when they are stopped by the police for no reason other than having white skin, dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys.
If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported (doing something) nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.
On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website and show it to them when they stop you.
Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious. You are repeating yourself and are still whining. The police did nothing wrong as they have every right to ask for ID , as I have stated earlier.
Maybe you should have asked to see their ID and then we all would not have had to listen to your heart breaking story, I know I have the violines out.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/bragin/DE/violin.jpg

If you really want to see action, I suggest you take up Pipokuns offer...

Reyter

Aug 25, 2009, 23:05

Reyter

Aug 25, 2009, 23:14

Did you write a letter of complaint?
When you have no time to google where you need to write to, I am glad to help you out. Just post the prefecture where you are living now.

No. I said earlier on this thread why I wont. I am however, fully prepared for the next time they stop me to ask for I.D.

If you know what you can do to help is explain what happens if they stop you in a busy area where it is a disruption to the public. In that case do you have the right to move to another area where there is no disruption or do they have the right to take you to a "police administrative area" where as far as I understand, ones rights are substantially less? Also, what if they stop you in front of a koban? Would this qualify as a police administrative area?

pipokun

Aug 25, 2009, 23:49

FrustratedDave

Aug 26, 2009, 08:01

You are really fanatical, arent you? Do you really expect anyone to believe you are a foreigner?
In Germany there are people like you too (mostly in the western areas. In the east they are playing with their lives!) but they come right out and say other ethnic groups and especially other races are inferior and dont have any rights in Germany and all those other nice fascist tendencies and ideas.
The police also give people with different color skin a hard time (again, mostly in western areas) but they are not so flagrant about it as they are in Japan. They would never stop someone to ask for an I.D. check and questioning and come right out and say "because you are a foreigner". I guess much to their dismay, police are also forced to obey the law.
I cant comment on people with skin other than white because I am only speaking from my own experience and from what other white-skinned people have told me. Have no idea what it is like for other races. I presume its the same for black and Asian people who arent or dont look east-Asian but that is only speculation.
Now, you are more than exceptionally annoying, you are outright painful and I know you are trying to reduce the thread to worthless babble so other interested white-skinned people cant read what their rights are. If you post anymore here I am not going to reply at all only to paste that same message explaining what foreigners rights are when stopped and asked to show I.D. by the police.
Unfortunately this thread was reduced to babel after you posted in it...

I suppose it is hard to admitt that the police were well within the law after you call them "fascists" and that you were ultimately wrong in your assumption of the law, especially on a public forum. Ah well, can't dispute facts can you.

So now you are reduced to trying to change the topic and start talking about other countries. This is Japan and this topic is about Japan.

I suggest you pick up all your toys and go home now.

And that is the first time I have been call a "Non foriegner" . LOL

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2660/3807475236_baae78084e.jpg

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 08:47

Reyter, are you German?
From what I did in your country was just to show my passport when a police car suddenly stopped and 3 or 4 officers surrounded me. I just walked down the street then.
Fortunately, I only get my bike registration checked on once or twice a year basis here. My bike is a bit too old and shabby with the light broken, so I cannot say anything against their suspicion.
Nobody steals it even I always leave it unlocked...

===
When I rode a bicycle painted in pink when I was around 14, I often challenged the cops asking "WHY ONLY ME? WHY NOT THAT WOMAN THERE??"

I am hardly going to defend the police, especially the West German police. I also dont know if you stand out from average Germans. I wouldnt be surprised at all if obviously being a foreigner they stop you and harrass you but I would be stunned if they are so flagrant as to openly say "because you are a foreigner."

Of course if you live close to a US military base and look like you could be in the army, all bets are off.

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 08:57

FrustratedDave

Aug 26, 2009, 09:15

Unfortunately this thread was reduced to babel after you posted in it...

I suppose it is hard to admitt that the police were well within the law after you call them "fascists" and that you were ultimately wrong in your assumption of the law, especially on a public forum. Ah well, can't dispute facts can you.

So now you are reduced to trying to change the topic and start talking about other countries. This is Japan and this topic is about Japan.

I suggest you pick up all your toys and go home now.

And that is the first time I have been call a "Non foriegner" . LOL

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2660/3807475236_baae78084e.jpg

nice gaijin

Aug 26, 2009, 09:45

For clarification, do any of the laws regarding police making stops or checking ID require them to give a valid reason? And is "because you're foreigner," or any variant considered an invalid reason to ask for ID? Has a police officer ever directly said that 「外国人だから。。。」, or is just the translation of your understanding of the situation?

When I was given my 外国人登録証明書, I was told that I needed to carry it on me at all times, and if any peace officer asked to see it for any reason I had to produce it. Does this law permit or encourage different treatment towards foreign residents than native citizens in regards to presenting ID?

If the law says that a police officer must present their ID if you ask to see it first, then it seems that the officer that refused you was in violation of this policy (and for this, you should file a complaint), but regardless of how unfair it might seem, he was within his rights to ask you for your ID in the first place. Calling him a fascist over and over, and angrily attacking other members that respond to your rants does not make your argument any more compelling.

I hope we can discuss the laws in question in a civilized manner, and if your rights were violated, then we can find the proper recourse to try to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. I have had my own experiences with police in Japan that have made me question their motives, but I learned long ago that cool heads prevail, especially in Japan. Passion is good, but getting riled up makes it easy to be written off by others.

Chidoriashi

Aug 26, 2009, 10:38

Reyter, I guess I am at a loss as to what you are even arguing anymore. It has been established that you must show your ID when asked to by a police officer, and that yes they must show their ID to you if you request it. So you could file a complaint against that officer who refused to show you his. So that should be the end of this discussion right?

And I totally agree with nicegaijin that throwing temper tantrums, dancing on pedestals and demanding your rights at the top of your lungs will do very little to help your case and will probably just make things worse for you here. If you truly are so passionate about this take the advice that many posters have said already and seek out the proper channels for filing a complaint. Pipokun has been very kind to offer to figure out where you need to go for you, I don't see how it could get any easier than that.

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 10:38

That is what we have been discussing. If you do a google search for "Debito Police Harrasment" you can see all the relevant laws in English and Japanese. Police have told me "because your a foreigner" twice and the police in this case are breaking the law. First time I was furious and went and checked the laws. Second time was 2 weeks ago but knowing some laws regarding foreigners changed earlier this year, I thought that must have been one. Even when they understood I wasnt just another docile foreigner willing to hand over my I.D. and submit to questioning without reason they still demanded to see my I.D. and refused to show their own. I thought the law must have changed since I had last checked but no. Those police are just fascist pigs. In searching for info I saw how common this type of thing is and so can only conclude that the Japanese police force is a fascist organization.

bruno

Aug 26, 2009, 10:50

Are you LT ? Strange likeness !

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 11:26

Reyter, I guess I am at a loss as to what why you are even arguing anymore. It has been established that you must show your ID when asked to by a police officer

For two reasons. Because some "less intellectually enlightened people" keep repying with some nonsense and others say things like above. Now I am no longer a junior member, here are the laws: http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf It absolutely HAS NOT been established tht you must show I.D. when police ask for it. You are not required to unless you are a suspect in a crime.

So you could file a complaint against that officer who refused to show you his. So that should be the end of this discussion right?

What is astonishing is that you tell me I should end the discussion? I am the only person here pointing out the law while some "others" are just carrying on with babbling nonsense. What is going on here? Has everyone come down with fascist sympathies? I point out the law several times and then you come along and say: "It has been established that you must show your ID when asked to by a police officer."

Just for the record, I hate fascists!

And I totally agree with nicegaijin that throwing temper tantrums, dancing on pedestals and demanding your rights at the top of your lungs will do very little to help your case

Well I didnt do that. I just thought the law must have changed and was angry about that but not the police especially even though one annoying little fascist stared at me in a very aggressive manner. When I found out the law hadnt changed and those police were just fascist pigs, thats when I got angry.

bruno

Aug 26, 2009, 11:45

As I suspected,' let's talk' on a new battlefield !

Chidoriashi

Aug 26, 2009, 11:54

第二条
１
　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。

This law says that they have the right to stop and "question" (key word here) you about a crime if you are suspected of having knowledge about or having committed that crime. It says nothing about asking you to show your ID. Which this other law.. "外国人登録法　第十三条　第二項　外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法に定める入国警備官をいう）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の掲示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。" states that they have the right stop ask you to show your ID in accordance with their duties, and says nothing about you having to be under suspicion of a crime.

Do you understand? There is no provision in the first law saying you must be under suspicion of a crime first before they can ask you for ID. It says if you are under suspicion of a crime or may have knowledge about a crime they can question you in regards to that crime. So if a police officer asks you to show your ID (not question you), you must comply, but you can ask him or her to show you theirs.

Chidoriashi

Aug 26, 2009, 12:00

And I read what Debitos thing said in English, but that is not what the Japanese says. .. that utagau ni tariru soutouna riyuu.. is talking about stopping and questioning you in regards to a crime.. it says nothing about being asked to show your ID.

FrustratedDave

Aug 26, 2009, 12:04

For two reasons. Because some "less intellectually enlightened people" keep repying with some nonsense and others say things like above. Now I am no longer a junior member, here are the laws: http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf It absolutely HAS NOT been established tht you must show I.D. when police ask for it. You are not required to unless you are a suspect in a crime.
What , b/c that site says so, I suggest you vist a Lawyer here. I have talked to my companies lawyer about this you don't have a leg to stand on.
Read this again and again until you can get it through your thick head that they don't have to suspect you of anything to ask for your ID.
外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法に定める入国警備官をいう。）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の提示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。
http://law.e-gov.go.jp/htmldata/S27/S27HO125.html

And you can carry on all you want that they have to show their ID first, the law only says if they are requested to show should they have to do it. I put the part that is relevant in bold.
前項に規定する職員は、その事務所以外の場所において登録証明書の提示を求める場合には、その身分を示す証票を携帯し、請求があるときは、これを提示しなければならない。

What is astonishing is that you tell me I should end the discussion? I am the only person here pointing out the law while some "others" are just carrying on with babbling nonsense. What is going on here? Has everyone come down with fascist sympathies? I point out the law several times and then you come along and say: "It has been established that you must show your ID when asked to by a police officer."
What is astonishing here is that you are too thick to see why your argument holds no water.
Just for the record, I hate fascists!
Well I didnt do that. I just thought the law must have changed and was angry about that but not the police especially even though one annoying little fascist stared at me in a very aggressive manner. When I found out the law hadnt changed and those police were just fascist pigs, thats when I got angry.
Fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fa scist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fasc ist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascis t,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist....
Go home already, Japan is not the place for you.

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 13:45

Fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fa scist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fasc ist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascis t,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist,fascist....
Go home already, Japan is not the place for you.

Well, I dont think there can be much doubt that the police force is a fascist organization and at least a lot of the lower ranking members enthuiastically do the bidding of their masters but that is just the police. I met some army guys and they were really decent let alone the average person on the street. Far from fascistic. Are you saying I should go home because of my dislike for fascists and thereby insinuating that Japan is full of or is itself a fascist state? Well thats why you are...... ell you now what I think of you but I cant say it or I will be banned.

This is the second time. I previously said "If the police keep treating me unfairly because I have white-skin I will leave." and then you said something to the end of "I dont like you because you come here for a short time and misbehave." Thereby suggesting that fascist police would continue to treat me unfairly because I have white skin and I would therefore leave soon.

You are a very sick person. There can be no doubt.

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 13:55

In conclusion, I hope foreigners when they are stopped by the police for no reason other than having white skin, dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys.

If the policemen or womem are smarter or just less willing to be so flagrant in breaking the law than average, they will come up with some reason as to why they need to see your I.D. For example "a foreigner was just reported (doing something) nearby." In that case they have the right to see your I.D. but before showing them, you have the right to first see their I.D. I would suggest not just letting them flick open their wallets and flash it, but to actually look carefully and record details as that is what they will do just to show "how powerful" they are (typical fascists!). If the foreigner first inspects their I.D. for everyone around to see, the power-trip of the police will go down in flames.

On the other hand, if he or she is as stupid and without any compunction in breaking the law as an average policeman or women and says you have to show I.D. merely because you are a foreigner, you have the right to refuse which is what I hope you will do as the more people who dont just hand over their I.D. like docile lackeys the more police will refrain from harrassing us. Unless you speak Japanese very well, download and print the file that has the law written in Japanese and English on Debitos website (http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf)and show it to them when they stop you.

Debitos webite itself is really good. Lots of info from foreigners who are not docile lackeys. Here is just a selection. (http://www.debito.org/?p=1752)
Its in everyones interest that the police refrain from doing this. At first they only pick on minorities as they are the easiest target but as soon as those minorities capitulate, they inevitably get more ambitious.

bruno

Aug 26, 2009, 14:03

Debito's Groupie, as usual !

FrustratedDave

Aug 26, 2009, 14:22

Well, I dont think there can be much doubt that the police force is a fascist organization and at least a lot of the lower ranking members enthuiastically do the bidding of their masters but that is just the police. I met some army guys and they were really decent let alone the average person on the street. Far from fascistic. Are you saying I should go home because of my dislike for fascists and thereby insinuating that Japan is full of or is itself a fascist state? Well thats why you are...... ell you now what I think of you but I cant say it or I will be banned.
This is the second time. I previously said "If the police keep treating me unfairly because I have white-skin I will leave." and then you said something to the end of "I dont like you because you come here for a short time and misbehave." Thereby suggesting that fascist police would continue to treat me unfairly because I have white skin and I would therefore leave soon.
You are a very sick person. There can be no doubt.
Yeah, yeah , yeah, Just another poor foriegner crying fowl. It is YOU who thinks Japan is full of fascists and it is YOU who is playing the "my skin is white" card and crying unfair treatment. Now who is putting words into peoples mouths.... The fact remains there was trouble at the park and regardless you were somehow involved. The police had every right to further investigate a situation they obviously came to after the fact, so all you whining and crying just makes you look like a 3 year old who has had there lollypop taken away.

So yeah, from what you have posted in this thread I think you should go back to where you came from as nothing good will come from you with your current attitude towards Japan.

Debito's Groupie, as usual !
I second the motion!

Akakubisan

Aug 26, 2009, 15:12

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 15:36

So you're saying that if stopped you should not show the officer your gaijin card, thus making the officer suspicious that you are not carrying it. Now the officer could ask you again with cause. This is a circle that is impossible to win.

I have not seen a case or situation listed yet where I think I would come out ahead by denying to show my card.

No. I am saying that if you are stopped and asked to show I.D. ask why. If they say "because you are a foreigner" or anything to that end either tell them the law or print out Debitos cards and show them. If they keep going after that, not sure what to do or what your rights are. I presume even a very stupid policeman wouldnt push on if he is confronted with the fact he is breaking the law. A fascist would be a different story. He wouldnt want to call for backup unless the backup he was calling for were absolute lackeys because they would then see he is breaking the law.

2 things, any foreigner who hasnt done anything wrong and just hands over their I.D. without question is a pityful and docile lackey.

If you dont want to be bothered and just want to be on your way, thats too bad because it encourages the fascists to then hit up other people like you but I can understand it. At least demand to see their I.D. and inspect it and take down details, either on paper or in your keitai if you dont have pen and paper. Do it publicly so people can see and the fascists little power-trip will be shot down, in flames.

ASHIKAGA

Aug 26, 2009, 16:58

If you dont want to be bothered and just want to be on your way, thats too bad because it encourages the fascists to then hit up other people like you but I can understand it. At least demand to see their I.D. and inspect it and take down details, either on paper or in your keitai if you dont have pen and paper. Do it publicly so people can see and the fascists little power-trip will be shot down, in flames.

Well, you start posting on this thread saying, "Someone I know has been treated unfairly by the police. What are his/my rights?" but you sound like you've known exactly what they are and what to do all along.

Exchanging insults is not the purpose of this forum and from the way this thread has been going, I must say it is more than likely that this will only go on and on in circles.

I don't think there is anyone left here who has not learned how you feel about the police. You have said your piece more than once. You have posted links to Debito's site more than once. I believe you have done what you had come here to do, so can you please move on?

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 19:26

Well, you start posting on this thread saying, "Someone I know has been treated unfairly by the police. What are his/my rights?" but you sound like you've known exactly what they are and what to do all along.
Exchanging insults is not the purpose of this forum and from the way this thread has been going, I must say it is more than likely that this will only go on and on in circles.
I don't think there is anyone left here who has not learned how you feel about the police. You have said your piece more than once. You have posted links to Debito's site more than once. I believe you have done what you had come here to do, so can you please move on?

You seem that like a reasonable person so I dont want to say anything bad but before making such statements dont you think it would be a good idea to actually read through the thread so you have at least a slight inclination as to whether what you say is true or not?

Insofar as myself, I will stop posting here as soon as people stop saying things like the police have every right to harrass you based on the color of your skin. The police can stop you, question you and demand to see your I.D. because you have white skin and you have no rights and etc etc.

I really cant understand it. If you and these other people are foreigners, why would you not want other foreigners to know they have rights when the police stop them? If you are Japanese, why would you want the police to do that? I think the vast majority of Japnese people are very decent (from my experience) and even that night several complete strangers came to the defence of the guy who was held and were very angry he was being treated in such a manner (but if you care to read through the thread, you will see that isnt why i was angry). Having said that, I have not seen or heard anything to suggest that fundamentally, the police force is not a fascist organization and anyone who defends them is either a fascist him or herself or even worse, a lackey of them.

Chidoriashi

Aug 26, 2009, 19:32

No. I am saying that if you are stopped and asked to show I.D. ask why. If they say "because you are a foreigner" or anything to that end either tell them the law or print out Debitos cards and show them. If they keep going after that, not sure what to do or what your rights are. I presume even a very stupid policeman wouldnt push on if he is confronted with the fact he is breaking the law.

Ok, let's go over this one last time because I honestly would not want to see you get yourself in trouble due to your misunderstanding of these laws.

In the law stating that the police have the right to stop and question you if you are suspected of a crime, not once do the words 外国人登録書、身分証明書、見せる、拝見する、提示する etc.. appear. (Alien registration card, Personal ID card, show, present etc.) Meaning this law does not in any way protect you from having to show your card when asked by a police officer. It does not say you must first be suspected of a crime in order to be forced to show your ID card. All it says is that if you are suspected of a crime the police have the right to detain and question you. Again it says nothing about whether or not you have to show your ID card.

The other law, clearly states that under any circumstances in the performing their duties the coast guard, immigration officials, and police etc have the right to demand you show your card.

The bottom line is these laws are not related to each other and debito mistakenly gives you the idea that they are. They are not. Read them carefully please. If you are confronted by the police and simply asked to show your card you must do it. If you do not you will certainly be making trouble for yourself.

Now, beyond showing your ID card and maybe answering some questions as to why you are in Japan etc. the police then apparently do not have any right to detain you further unless you are suspected of a crime. So when they are done with the card, you then may politely ask if you can go. If they say no, then that is the appropriate time to ask if you are suspected of a crime, and show them the law or whatever you wanna do. Simple eh?, but the bottom line is you have to show your card regardless of whether or not you are suspected of a crime, period.

caster51

Aug 26, 2009, 19:42

You seem that like a reasonable person so I dont want to say anything bad but before making such statements dont you think it would be a good idea to actually read through the thread so you have at least a slight inclination as to whether what you say is true or not?
Insofar as myself, I will stop posting here as soon as people stop saying things like the police have every right to harrass you based on the color of your skin. The police can stop you, question you and demand to see your I.D. because you have white skin and you have no rights and etc etc.
I really cant understand it. If you and these other people are foreigners, why would you not want other foreigners to know they have rights when the police stop them? If you are Japanese, why would you want the police to do that? I think the vast majority of Japnese people are very decent (from my experience) and even that night several complete strangers came to the defence of the guy who was held and were very angry he was being treated in such a manner (but if you care to read through the thread, you will see that isnt why i was angry). Having said that, I have not seen or heard anything to suggest that fundamentally, the police force is not a fascist organization and anyone who defends them is either a fascist him or herself or even worse, a lackey of them.

because most Japanese are smart...:p
i dont want to make a truble with a facist police by such trivial things ,and it is waste of time.
Do not put your pride of white boy by such a foolish thing.
and those fascist police is so kind.
You should use the police better.
If you cooperate in them with pleasure, Japan becomes more peaceful.
You should return to dreamland.

pipokun

Aug 26, 2009, 20:00

...
If you are Japanese, why would you want the police to do that?
...

It is simply because as many as 156,189 criminal offense cases in 2006 were detected through the stop & question.
And personally, I believe public safety and free-speech is not mutually exclusive.

Source: Police Performance Evaluation Review (http://www.npa.go.jp/seisaku_hyoka/soumu32/19jisseki.pdf), page 5

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 21:07

because most Japanese are smart...:p.

So in that case, why do the majority of Japanese people not willingly present their I.D? Any Japanese people who dont mind police flagrantly breaking the law I and I'm sure most people wouldnt call "smart". They would call it something entirely different.............

i dont want to make a truble with a facist police by such trivial things ,and it is waste of time.

Do you know there was a place in Europe not so long ago where the police would randomly stop people and demand to see their "papers". It started with minorities and the local people didnt have a problem with it. In ended with the Red Army reducing whole cities to dust with the local people still inside (of course I'm not suggesting that was the fault of the Red Army. They opened corridors for civilians to leave but the fascists refused to let them leave.) I'm not saying anything similar will happen here and i certainly hope not. I'm sure the Japanese government knows it which is why they have added clauses and sub sections to the law in order to see everyones rights protected.

Do not put your pride of white boy by such a foolish thing.
and those fascist police is so kind.

Is that a joke? I'm sure some of them are very reasonable, decent people but quite a few of them participate in racial profiling and flagrantly ignore the law like power hungary little fascists!

You should use the police better.
If you cooperate in them with pleasure, Japan becomes more peaceful.
You should return to dreamland.

In relation to the last comment I cant where I think you shouldnt remain or i will get banned. Apart from power hungary little fascist police giving me a hard time because of the color of my skin, Japan is very peaceful now.

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 21:13

It is simply because as many as 156,189 criminal offense cases in 2006 were detected through the stop & question.
And personally, I believe public safety and free-speech is not mutually exclusive.

Source: Police Performance Evaluation Review (http://www.npa.go.jp/seisaku_hyoka/soumu32/19jisseki.pdf), page 5

If a crime has been committed and I am a suspect, the law says I must comply with the police and even if the law didnt say that, i wouldnt have a problem cooperating...... just as long as they present their own I.D. for inspection first.:-)

Derfel

Aug 26, 2009, 21:19

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 22:03

Wait a second, in any country worth a damn if the police approaches you and asks for some form of identification, you just comply. Why is that a surprise to you? I'm not talking about continued detention here. It is at the police constables' discretion to request identification, and there is really nothing to be gained from questioning the merits of their decisions. It just simply creates additional dialogue, which I assume you would like to avoid. It is not a major disuse of discretionary powers on the part of the police after all, so just ignore it.

Interesting perspective but i would turn the question around. In your opinion which countries are "worth a damn"? Is Japan "worth a damn" because Japanese people dont do that. I just dont like being pulled up by police for no reason other than having white skin. I know the vast majority of other white-skinned people dont like it either. Now that I know the law, i wont just comply like any docile lackey and I hope you dont either.

Chidoriashi

Aug 26, 2009, 22:11

So in that case, why do the majority of Japanese people not willingly present their I.D? Any Japanese people who dont mind police flagrantly breaking the law

Once again they are not breaking the law when asking anybody simply to show ID regardless of skin color nationality etc. READ the law. And if you can't read it, take my word for it. There is nothing in there giving you the right to refuse to show your ID. Yes, they can legally, racially profile you. Yes you can be singled out because of your white skin. Do not like it? Tough. It is the LAW of this land, and you are just going to have to deal with it.

Now that I know the law, i wont just comply like any docile lackey and I hope you dont either.

And if you don't comply they can arrest you because the law says you have to show your ID.

Reyter

Aug 26, 2009, 23:02

And if you don't comply they can arrest you because the law says you have to show your ID.

If that is what you wish to believe in order to try and convince yourself that you are not the kind of person who I said would just hand over their I.D. without question, you have my permission to do that. Just dont bother me with it thanks!

Chidoriashi

Aug 26, 2009, 23:44

If that is what you wish to believe in order to try and convince yourself that you are not the kind of person who I said would just hand over their I.D. without question, you have my permission to do that. Just dont bother me with it thanks!

I have presented to you in a factual manner why you are wrong. You offer me no response. I pretty much spelled everything out for you. If you still cannot see it then you need improvement on your English and or Japanese comprehension.

If you do have an counter argument for me, where you can show me where in the laws that have been presented that I have misinterpreted them by all means please do so. Just saying I'm right and you are wrong with no reasoning behind it is ridiculous. This is not about beliefs my friend, these are plan facts written down in Japanese law, presented right in front of my eyes and yours, and if you can show that I misinterpreted those facts I would like you to try and do so. But I think you are just too stubborn/embarrassed to admit you are wrong about this after raving on about it post after post.

And since we are dealing with facts, the fact is I would had over my ID without question because the law demands it of me. You seem to be too delusional and blinded by your silly vendetta now to see that though, so when the judge listens to your "I was not under suspicion of a crime so I did NOT have to show ID" defense, and tears you a new one, please let me know so I can send you an "I told you so" postcard.

Mikawa Ossan

Aug 26, 2009, 23:52

If you really think that the police as an institution are discriminatory against white people, work with these people (東京都人権啓発センター (http://www.tokyo-jinken.or.jp/)). The link is for Tokyo, but if you do a search for 人権啓発センター in whatever prefecture you live in, you will find the most relevant one for you.

If you're serious and not just a blowhard, the best thing to do is to try to take positive actions to rectify the situation.

Derfel

Aug 26, 2009, 23:55

Interesting perspective but i would turn the question around. In your opinion which countries are "worth a damn"? Is Japan "worth a damn" because Japanese people dont do that. I just dont like being pulled up by police for no reason other than having white skin. I know the vast majority of other white-skinned people dont like it either. Now that I know the law, i wont just comply like any docile lackey and I hope you dont either.

But there is nothing inherently evil in checking your ID. Since persons of non-Japanese descent are scarce in Japan, it is fairly logical for the police to differentiate between people on racial grounds. If they are told that a 160cm tall female had behaved in a disorderly manner, the patrolling constables will have to screen a much higher number of pedestrians, if they are simply told that the person is a female foreigner, it becomes so much easier.

Another thing is that there is no point confronting authority (I mean authority in the sense of legislation here), unless you are in the right position to do so. If you are the member of the Japanese executive or the member of some pressure group and you are present on the field in a representative's quality, that's fine, you are raising awareness or whatever, but otherwise, merely as a foreigner who happened to be there, you are powerless and not suited to tackle the issue.

Most foreigners, I assume, wish to avoid intrusion. From what has been said here in this thread -in the absence of personal experience on my part- I think pissed Japanese policemen are the last thing foreigners need.

Which countries worth a damn? If we consider the police aspect, those countries that keep a police force to uphold peace and order (lets not go into the public assembly bit here hehe). By checking people from time to time the police deter people from committing crimes, prevent criminal acts directly and maintain an atmosphere of security. The Japanese police force -again, I am concluding this based on the information disclosed in this thread by persons who came into immediate contact with said police force- seems to match this image even if we consider its alleged oddities and failings.

Reyter

Aug 27, 2009, 00:10

Which countries worth a damn? If we consider the police aspect, those countries that keep a police force to uphold peace and order (lets not go into the public assembly bit here hehe). By checking people from time to time the police deter people from committing crimes, prevent criminal acts directly and maintain an atmosphere of security. The Japanese police force -again, I am concluding this based on the information disclosed in this thread by persons who came into immediate contact with said police force- seems to match this image even if we consider its alleged oddities and failings.

Interesting and not a bad opinion. Certainly in comparison to most of the nonsense others have posted here. But you did say the police would randomly check people in any country worth a damn but the fact is that in any developed country, the police are expressly forbidden from doing that. And as I said previously, if a crime has been committed and I am a suspect, it is the law that I comply with police in showing my I.D. Even if it wasnt I wouldnt have a problem doing that but if they want to simply stop you and check I.D. because you are a foreigner, that is agaisnt the law as it should be in any country worth a damn in my humble opinion.

FrustratedDave

Aug 27, 2009, 08:18

And as I said previously, if a crime has been committed and I am a suspect, it is the law that I comply with police in showing my I.D. Even if it wasnt I wouldnt have a problem doing that but if they want to simply stop you and check I.D. because you are a foreigner, that is agaisnt the law as it should be in any country worth a damn in my humble opinion.
Yes and Japan is so bad that other countries don't have similar laws, maybe you could become a freedom fighter and loby for all these countries to stop these laws.

# Germany: Personalausweis. It is compulsory for all German citizens age 16 or older to possess either a "Personalausweis" (identity card) or a passport, but not to carry it. While police officers and some other officials have a right to demand to see one of those documents, the law does not state that one is obliged to submit the document at that very moment. Fines may only be applied if an identity card or passport is not possessed at all, if the document is expired or if one explicitly refuses to show ID to the police. If one is unable to produce an ID card or passport (or any other form of credible identification) during a police control, one can (in theory) be brought to the next police post and detained for max. 12 hours, or until positive identification is possible. However, this measure is only applied if the police have reasonable grounds to believe the person detained has committed an offense.
As driver's licences are not legally accepted forms of identification in Germany, most persons actually carry their "Personalausweis" with them.[citation needed]
Netherlands: Identiteitsbewijs: Since 1 January 2005 identification is compulsory at 14. Legal proof of identity are a Dutch or other European identity card or a passport. A Dutch driving license is valid while other driving licenses are not valid for identification. It is not compulsory to carry a proof of identity, but it is compulsory to show it to the authorities when they ask such under certain circumstances. Such circumstances include suspicious behaviour, committing any offense, or if a person is interviewed as a witness of a crime. Identity checks at events where the public order may be in danger are also allowed. Otherwise random identity checks by the police are not allowed in principle but can happen in certain areas such as a train station or doubtful areas i.e. redlight district, and a fine for not showing proof of identity may be successfully challenged in such cases. The fine for not being able to show proof of identity when legally required is € 50.-. Proof of identity is also required when opening a bank account and when entering an employment contract.
These are just two countries which I dug up the law and in the Netherlands , shock horror, you even have to produce ID when witness to a crime.

But we all know we are not talking about other countries, but you continue to press your racially charged opinions regardless of the fact that most countries will demand ID in many different situations. Some countries will not allow you to buy a drink without ID, which at this stage I have not seen in Japan(those hotel club owners in those countries must be all be fascists?)

You are a joke, a few people have shown you all the evidence that the police were well within the law to do what they did and you dismiss those posts as , in your words "nonsense". The only "nonsense" here is the lack understanding and complete ignorance on your part.

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 09:19

第二条
１
　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。

Reyter you claim to "know the law" in a lot of your posts, and since you will not willingly offer a rebuttal, I am going to challenge you to one.

Please show me in the above law, (the one you claim protects you from having to show your ID) where it says you have the right to refuse to show police your ID card unless under suspicion of committing a crime.

Wha..what's that?? Oh you cannot even read it for yourself? Oh wow that is ironic, you claiming to know soo much about the law you cannot even read for yourself. Your claims are completely ridiculous. And if you do not like me saying so then please prove to me that it is not actually you who are the one spewing out "nonsense".

Reyter

Aug 27, 2009, 09:38

第二条
１
　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。
Reyter you claim to "know the law" in a lot of your posts, and since you will not willingly offer a rebuttal, I am going to challenge you to one.
Please show me in the above law, (the one you claim protects you from having to show your ID) where it says you have the right to refuse to show police your ID card unless under suspicion of committing a crime.
Wha..what's that?? Oh you cannot even read it for yourself? Oh wow that is ironic, you claiming to know soo much about the law you cannot even read for yourself. Your claims are completely ridiculous. And if you do not like me saying so then please prove to me that it is not actually you who are the one spewing out "nonsense".

That is precisely why clauses and sub sections have been added to the law but regardless, as I said in my last message to you. If it makes you feel better, please continue to do that but it wont change the fact no matter how it makes you feel.

Derfel

Aug 27, 2009, 09:52

That is precisely why clauses and sub sections have been added to the law but regardless, as I said in my last message to you. If it makes you feel better, please continue to do that but it wont change the fact no matter how it makes you feel.

I am assuming that Chidoriashi presented the provision in an amended (if it had been at any point), up to date state, which would exclude the possibility of further amendments currently existing. I mean, the thing tells in which circumstances a constable may stop and question a person, and it is hard to believe that elsewhere it would provide the contrary in the same act.

I think he is right in requesting evidence to support your allegations, and I too am of the opinion that this is no longer a matter of principle, but of law. People spend time digging up authority to support their claims and it is disrespectful to ignore the evidence they provide and simply carry on.

nice gaijin

Aug 27, 2009, 09:57

That is precisely why clauses and sub sections have been added to the law...
Where are they? can you post them here to make your point?

FrustratedDave

Aug 27, 2009, 10:21

I am assuming that Chidoriashi presented the provision in an amended (if it had been at any point), up to date state, which would exclude the possibility of further amendments currently existing. I mean, the thing tells in which circumstances a constable may stop and question a person, and it is hard to believe that elsewhere it would provide the contrary in the same act.

I think he is right in requesting evidence to support your allegations, and I too am of the opinion that this is no longer a matter of principle, but of law. People spend time digging up authority to support their claims and it is disrespectful to ignore the evidence they provide and simply carry on.
Exactly and this twit has no base for his/her argument, which I have lobbied right from the start.

Where are they? can you post them here to make your point?
No Reyter can't and that is why Reyter keeps resorting to changing the topic back to the police being "fascists" and avoiding the the valid points most people have made here.

Watch Reyter's next post, if Reyter dose post it will have nothing in it to show the evidence of Reyter argument and if Reyter doesn't post anymore in this thread it will only confirm that a troll was at work.

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 10:33

I will save him the trouble, since I'm sure he doesn't have any idea what he should post. Here are the laws and their clauses insofar as I know of, and as far as I can tell does not support his case in anyway. But let's look, and try to find that "special clause" he thinks is protecting him.

First the law in regards to police conduct (one on he thinks says somewhere that he does not have to show his ID card unless suspected of a crime first.)
警察官職務執行法

（質問）
第２条　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。
２　その場で前項の質問をすることが本人に対して不利であり、又は交通の妨害になると認められる場合においては、質問するため、その者に付近の警察署、派出所若しくは駐在所に同行することを求めることができる。
３　前２項に規定する者は、刑事訴訟に関する法律の規定によらない限り、身柄を拘束され、又はその意に反して警察署、派出所もしくは駐在所に連行され、若しくは答弁を強要されることはない。
４　警察官は、刑事訴訟に関する法律により逮捕されている者については、その身体について凶器を所持しているかどうかを調べることができる。

And here is the law about carrying ones gaijin card clearly stating that he must show his ID card when requested by the police.

（登録証明書の受領、携帯及び提示）
第十三条　外国人は、市町村の長が交付し、又は返還する登録証明書を受領し、常にこれを携帯していなければならない。ただし、十六歳に満たない外国人は、登録証明書を携帯していることを要しない。
２　外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官（入管法に定める入国警備官をいう。）、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の提示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。
３　前項に規定する職員は、その事務所以外の場所において登録証明書の提示を求める場合には、その身分を示す証票を携帯し、請求があるときは、これを提示しなければならない。

Now Reyter.. please show me that "special clause" proving your case. And if you think it is not listed here.. find it. But the fact is you are basing your claims on what you found on Debito's website, which includes everything written here (actually I have more stuff written here). And as I said before what Debito wrote in English is not correct, it is misrepresenting what the law actually says. So please read it for yourself if you can.

bruno

Aug 27, 2009, 10:40

..a troll was at work...!(quote)

Reyter - a male poster's username ?

http://www.google.co.jp/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=reyter !!!

Mikawa Ossan

Aug 27, 2009, 11:22

３　前項に規定する職員は、その事務所以外の場所において登録証明書の提示を求める場合には、その身分を示す証票を携帯し、請求があるときは、これを提示しなければならない。

Perhaps this is what he is referring to...? Although it does say that the officials must show I.D. upon request if asked outside of their office, it does not require any certain order. In other words, in such a case both must show identification, but the order is unspecified.

I guess that is the best he has to go on. Note, though, that there is no compromise in that he must show his own identification. Debito is is in a different situation, however, because he is not a foreigner, but a naturalized citizen. Therefore he is not required to show his foreigner registration card. But comparing him to yourself is like comparing apples and oranges. Reyter's case is much more cut and dry than Debito's.

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 11:30

Well, we already established that he has the right to request to see the police officer's ID if requested to show his own and told him that he has a valid complaint, if the officer refuses to do so. As far as I understand though he thinks he has the right to ignore the police when requested to show his ID unless he is suspected of a crime, and as far as I can tell that is a misinterpretation of the law.

Mikawa Ossan

Aug 27, 2009, 11:34

I interpret the law the same as you. I thought Reyter said at point that he would gladly show his ID if the police would do so first, which is where the idea of order comes into play...let me look for it, and I'll edit it in if I find it.

EDIT: It was ths post:
http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=642222&postcount=88

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 11:41

Yeah, the key is the beginning of what he wrote though, he believes he must be suspected of a crime first before he can be forced to cooperate with the ID check.

oh I see what you are saying.. he says even if the law didn't say that.. which is doesn't. So I guess, he can go on believing whatever he wants so long as he always shows his ID when requested of him... odd that he would go against his principles in standing up to the "fascists" though.

Mikawa Ossan

Aug 27, 2009, 11:55

I think that the intention of the law in making officials show their ID upon request outside of the office is to protect people from anyone trying to impersonate a proper official. If there is no doubt that a police officer is indeed who he claims to be, then there really is no point in asking for ID, is there?

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 12:01

I agree that is clearly the purpose of that law. To protect people from handing out personal info to somebody who could be impersonating a police officer etc. for fraudulent gain. So no, there is no point if it is established that he or she is who they say they are.

Reyter

Aug 27, 2009, 12:42

Yes and Japan is so bad that other countries don't have similar laws, maybe you could become a freedom fighter and loby for all these countries to stop these laws.
These are just two countries which I dug up the law and in the Netherlands , shock horror, you even have to produce ID when witness to a crime.

LOL That is funny. You have searched the laws of various countries in a desperate bid to a law where police can pick out someone at random and demand to see their I.D. and question them but you couldnt. Was that all for me? LOL, very funny. For the 4th time, if I am a suspect in a crime it is the law that I coply with police and I have no problem doing that.

A liquor vendor asking to see the I.D. of someone who wants to buy alcohol because they suspect he or she is underage and police randomly stopping someone on the street to ask for I.D. is a plainly absurd comparison to make.

Where are they? can you post them here to make your point?

I already posted a link to them. You can see it maybe on the previous page. If you cant find it I would be happy to post another link if you so request.

Reyter

Aug 27, 2009, 12:50

Where are they? can you post them here to make your point?

Dont worry about it. Here are the links. The first one isnt the laws itself, just some observations on peoples experience with "the very kind" police and the second is some general info about the laws and the 3rd is the law with the clauses and sub-sections you requested.

1. http://www.debito.org/?p=1752
2. http://www.debito.org/whattodoif.html#checkpoint
3. http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 12:59

LOL That is funny. You have searched the laws of various countries in a desperate bid to a law where police can pick out someone at random and demand to see their I.D. and question them but you couldnt. Was that all for me? LOL, very funny. For the 4th time, if I am a suspect in a crime it is the law that I coply with police and I have no problem doing that.
A liquor vendor asking to see the I.D. of someone who wants to buy alcohol because they suspect he or she is underage and police randomly stopping someone on the street to ask for I.D. is a plainly absurd comparison to make.

I already posted a link to them. You can see it maybe on the previous page. If you cant find it I would be happy to post another link if you so request.

And for the whatever time.. I have shown you your interpretation is wrong. The link you posted is just to debito's site. I in my last post to you pasted all the laws that are listed on the link you gave and some more. I have ask you to read through and show me where you are getting your idea that you do not have to show your ID card to the police unless first suspect of a crime.

Can you do that? Can you come up with a rebuttal? No, I don't think you can, and if so you are beaten, you are wrong, you have no ground to stand on, you are the one babbling on and posting nonsense. Do you not see this? I think you do, you are just to embarrassed now about your bungling to admit it.

So will you stop posting your "nonsense" until you actually show where in the laws your case is supported? Remember I posted the laws that were written in your link for you. So no need to tell anybody to redirect to your link. Look at the laws and support your case, or stop posting. Thanks!

Dont worry about it. Here are the links. The first one isnt the laws itself, just some observations on peoples experience with "the very kind" police and the second is some general info about the laws and the 3rd is the law with the clauses and sub-sections you requested.
1. http://www.debito.org/?p=1752
2. http://www.debito.org/whattodoif.html#checkpoint
3. http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf

Yes, your precious 3rd link subsections are exactly what I have posted. And anybody that can comprehend Japanese will see that what Debito wrote in English is a misrepresentation of what the law is saying. Get it through your head already!

FrustratedDave

Aug 27, 2009, 13:20

Dont worry about it. Here are the links. The first one isnt the laws itself, just some observations on peoples experience with "the very kind" police and the second is some general info about the laws and the 3rd is the law with the clauses and sub-sections you requested.
1. http://www.debito.org/?p=1752
2. http://www.debito.org/whattodoif.html#checkpoint
3. http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf
Taken from your links, I really hope you are really not this stupid.

As there is nothing to do with foriegners rights in the first link, Deibito is a naturalized Japanese so that does not concern us in regards to the topic at hand.

2nd link,
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3545/3860518797_5c5f024979_o.jpg

3rd link,

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3418/3861300770_860a275203_o.jpg
I underlined the relevent parts in red so even someone as ignorant as you can see the huge mistake you want so desperately to undo.

FrustratedDave

Aug 27, 2009, 13:26

Reyter

Aug 27, 2009, 14:59

FrustratedDave

Aug 27, 2009, 15:25

Anyway, despite all the nervous irritation and desperate babbling on this thread if one cares to follow the links and read though the information one can clearly see that police cant lawfully demand to see I.D. if one, foreigner or Japanese, knows ones rights. If one is a suspect in a crime or is suspected of being about to be involved in a crime, the police have the lawful right to stop you and demand to see I.D. but you have the right to demand they produce their own I.D. for inspection before you show your own. If they stop you and say they wish to see your I.D. because you are a foreigner, of course it isnt illegal to ask but you have the legal right to refuse.
Japan is a nice and civilised country.
Are you a complete and utter idiot? All those links you provided and the links provided by others clearly shows that you don't have to be suspected of a crime to be asked for your ID and no you don't have the right to refuse. Read the Foreign registry law again. So stop feeding untruths to people who may be reading this thread b/c you will only get them into trouble.
Read the underlined part in this screen shot from your link.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3418/3861300770_860a275203_o.jpg

Japan is a nice and civilised country. Did you people really think such backward laws existed without clauses?
Do you not know simple comprehension, the laws exist and you provided links to them numbskull.

For the love of god, this guy is an idiot. I seen some stupid posts in my day but this takes the cake.

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 15:27

Anyway, despite all the nervous irritation and desperate babbling on this thread if one cares to follow the links and read though the information one can clearly see that police cant lawfully demand to see I.D. if one, foreigner or Japanese, knows ones rights. If one is a suspect in a crime or is suspected of being about to be involved in a crime, the police have the lawful right to stop you and demand to see I.D. but you have the right to demand they produce their own I.D. for inspection before you show your own. If they stop you and say they wish to see your I.D. because you are a foreigner, of course it isnt illegal to ask but you have the legal right to refuse.
Japan is a nice and civilised country. Did you people really think such backward laws existed without clauses?

You are completely ridiculous.

"desperate babbling"... you mean everything you have posted.

"go to your threads and read through the info" oh you mean what FrustratedDave and I and other posters have probably already done, re-posted and shown you why you have misinterpreted what the laws say?

Reyter.. the fact is we have gone to your threads, read what they said, told you why what they say is wrong, and asked you to show us otherwise. The fact is you cannot do it. Either because you don't understand Japanese or because you are wrong and you know it. The garbage you keep spewing out is not correct. The police do have the right to stop you if you are a foreigner and ask for ID without being suspect of a crime. You cannot prove otherwise and that is exactly why you keep on spamming this crap.

Come on I dare you prove me wrong! I have shown you my case and proven yours to be wrong. Can you respond? Apparently not. To keep the saying the same stuff after being proven wrong and offering no response is pathetic and you should really just stop posting.

Reyter

Aug 27, 2009, 15:42

You are completely ridiculous.

"desperate babbling"... you mean everything you have posted.

This has really got you upset, hasnt it? Are we not friends anymore? To be perfectly honest, i stopped taking your messages seriously a few days ago. And as for "Frustrated Dave" LOL............. I havent taken his idiotic, befuddled, hysterical and hopelessly contradictory posts seriously yet.

Here is the link for anyone who wishes to know the laws. Japan is a civilised country and police powers over anyone, Japanese or foreigner are far more limited than the police and some pityful lackeys would have you believe.

http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 16:16

This has really got you upset, hasnt it? Are we not friends anymore? To be perfectly honest, i stopped taking your messages seriously a few days ago. And as for "Frustrated Dave" LOL............. I havent taken his idiotic, befuddled, hysterical and hopelessly contradictory posts seriously yet.
Here is the link for anyone who wishes to know the laws. Japan is a civilised country and police powers over anyone, Japanese or foreigner are far more limited than the police and some pityful lackeys would have you believe.
http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf

You are truly a idiotic aren't you? Oh, you stopped replying to my posts a few days ago? Or you stopped reading them because they show you that you are wrong? Well that would be a logical explanation for as to why you keep on saying the same uninformed stupid nonsense over and over.

Ok I don't know how to do that image insert trick that FrustratedDave does, but here is the English text I think you believe is supporting your case. This is from the second set of boxes down on the 3rd link you posted. The one right up there in your quote And it says:

"If the police ask for your ID ask why. Because under Police Exectuion of Duties Law Section 2: A police officer is able to ask for a person’s ID, but only if based on a reasonable judgment of a situation where the policeman sees some strange conduct and some crime being committed, or else has enough reason to suspect (utagau ni tariru soutou na ryuu) that a person will commit or has committed a crime or else it has been acknowledged that a particular person knows a crime will be committed. In these cases the police officer may stop a person for questioning."

BUT This is not correct. The English written here misrepresents what the law posted next to it actually says. Here is the law: READ it if you can.

第二条
１
　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。

If you could understand a lick of Japanese you would see that this precious law you think is defending your pathetic case says nothing about "A police officer is able to ask for a person’s ID, but only". But nothing. It does not even mention an ID check.

It starts out right by talking about a police officer deducing strange behavior as potentially being criminal and then the officer having the right to stop that person and question them. It say absolutely positively nothing about an officer only having the right to stop and ask you for ID if you are suspect of a crime. Nothing in this law protects you from the other law! DEBITO IS LYING TO YOU! Do you get it? No, you don't because your mind cannot comprehend that much because it is already made up. So go ahead and believe in your fantasy, and I'm sure there will come a day when i will be at home enjoying some nice cold beers and you will be sitting in jail for obstruction of justice. Cheers!

Reyter

Aug 27, 2009, 16:46

You are truly a idiotic aren't you? Oh, you stopped replying to my posts a few days ago?

No, I stopped taking them seriously a few days ago. Im certainly not going to read all of your latest offereing. If you keep it short and to the point I may read it. Just for future reference.

I dont really care what you do or say just if you are a foreigner, dont just hand over your I.D. like a pityful, docile lackey but know your rights. Unless you are suspect in a crime, the police cant legally demand to see your I.D. So make sure you ask "why" if the police ever pull you up for a random check. If they say anything to the end; "because you are a foreigner" dont show them as they can only ask and you hae the right to refuse.

If they are smarter than the average policeman and say you are a suspect, you have to show them I.D. but, before that you have the right to demand to see their I.D. Do that and inspect it closely and as publicly can. It will destroy their little power trip.

僕たちは良い友達だね！

nice gaijin

Aug 27, 2009, 16:54

I daresay this thread is way past its bedtime.

Do let us know how it goes next time you refuse to present ID to the police.

Reyter

Aug 27, 2009, 16:56

I daresay this thread is way past its bedtime.

Do let us know how it goes next time you refuse to present ID to the police.

And likewise I hope.

FrustratedDave

Aug 27, 2009, 17:08

Akakubisan

Aug 27, 2009, 17:29

Why doesn't someone ban him for the troll he is.

Chidoriashi

Aug 27, 2009, 17:46

No, I stopped taking them seriously a few days ago. Im certainly not going to read all of your latest offereing. If you keep it short and to the point I may read it. Just for future reference.
I dont really care what you do or say just if you are a foreigner, dont just hand over your I.D. like a pityful, docile lackey but know your rights. Unless you are suspect in a crime, the police cant legally demand to see your I.D. So make sure you ask "why" if the police ever pull you up for a random check. If they say anything to the end; "because you are a foreigner" dont show them as they can only ask and you hae the right to refuse.
If they are smarter than the average policeman and say you are a suspect, you have to show them I.D. but, before that you have the right to demand to see their I.D. Do that and inspect it closely and as publicly can. It will destroy their little power trip.
僕たちは良い友達だね！

Of course you are not going to read them because they prove you wrong, and I actually suspect you have read them, and now are pretty much just trolling. So I think it is time I stopped feeding you.
And well in reality I am done with you now anyway. The evidence has been laid out and you have clearly been beaten to a pulp, and the people to come to this thread wanting to know some real answers will see that. There is great phrase in Japanese that you should learn because it suits you perfectly considering you have proven yourself incapable of response in a rational cohesive way.　ぐうの音も出ない　pretty much sums up you during this entire thread.

Oh, let me know how the food is in jail here by the way, I'm curious to know what I will be missing out on.:wave: