Are Japanese more hypocritical with foreigners ?

[Maciamo]

Foreword

I know some people are going to call this thread "overgeneralization" because I am talking about "the Japanese", a group of 126 million people. Let me say from the start that for the sake of discussion I will use the term "Japanese" not to refer to "all the Japanese", but to "the average Japanese in the streets (of Tokyo where I live), based on my observations". The purpose of this thread (and other ones with such generalization) is to compare one another's opinion based on our personal experience. This seems obvious to me, but I need to explain this if I don't want to be misunderstood.

Are Japanese more hypocritical with foreigners ?

I have now been living for 3,5 years in Japan, during which time I have assiduously analyzed the behaviour and mentality of people around me (just for the record, I very rarely meet foreigners in Japan, apart from Thomas once in a while :p )

I am pretty good when it comes to understanding people's emotions and guessing what they think. My wife is often surprised how I express her own feelings better than she can herself. I often predict correctly what the person I am talking to will reply to some questions - be it about their opinion, feelings or knowledge for something specific. When I ask the question, I can see in their eyes what they are going to say before they actually say it. I rarely mistake (esp. with Japanese people, which I usually find easier to understand than Westerners).

After these few years of mind-reading and careful observations, I am left with the feeling that the average Japanese have awkward and prejudiced feelings against anybody that doesn't look Japanese. (let me define that "the average Japanese " are not those who come to practice their English with the first foreign-looking person, or those who have lived abroad, but the real average Japanese that don't speak English and know little about other countries).

For example, no later than today, as I was queuing at the supermarket cashier, the careless woman in front of me walked back and stepped on my foot. She first started a typical "ahh, suuumimaseeen !", but as she turned and saw that I was not Japanese, her voice faded before she finished her "sumimasen" and she just walked away with a strange look on her face. This has happened to me times and again.

First, when I mentioned that to my wife or some Japanese friends, I heard "excuses" such as "they think you don't understand Japanese because you are a foreigner", or the like. But these are really just (prejudiced) excuses. At the place near my house where I usually buy my bento, and have been going for 3 years, the staff (you should know m by then), still hardly says anything to me and when they have run out of one kind of bento, make signs crossing fingers and speaking in strange Japanese as if I couldn't understand. They have heard me speak fluent Japanese with my wife, and could not possibly not remember me, but still act in such prejudiced ways (while I always speak Japanese with my Japanese friends, and the have no problem understanding me at all). The worst is when those kind of shop's staff thank the previous (Japanese) customer with "arigoto gozaimaashitaaa, mata okoshi kudasaimaseee" then when it is my turn, they just don't say anything or mumble a quick and dry "arigato gozaimass" as if they were angry.

This week again, as I was riding my bike at lunchtime in crowded central Tokyo, a police car stopped with the policeman rushing toward me and asking if that was my bicycle and checked the registration number. There were other bicycles around, so my intentionally stop me for no reason. That is very embarassing in front of hundreds of people (and made me come late to my appointment, as it took a few minutes). The policeman was also surprised that I spoke so well Japanese and asked me if I had lived for over 10 years in Japan. Again that is very prejudiced to think that foreigners can't speak decent Japanese just after a few years's stay (or maybe because he couldn't do the same in English).

Westerners usually see the Japanese as polite, well-mannered and respectful. But do they behave this way because of social-pressure or because of genuine good feelings ? Very often it is due to social norms. But taking things a step further, I'd like to say that the attitude of many Japanese toward foreigners is very different from the one they use between themselves. When the "foreigner" is a "customer/guest" (kyaku-san) and people treat him/her even better than they would treat a Japanese, with lots of blatant flattery (sometimes annoyingly so, like the fake expression of amazement at how well a gaijin can use chopsticks or eat sushi - which in fact conceals a deep-rooted cultural prejudice that foreigners are inferior to Japanese). But when the foreigner is not a "kyaku-san" or reluctantly so (esp. in small shops), we can see how this was really hypocrisy, as this time the gaijin is treated like a weird animal and not even like a standard Japanese customer.


Any thoughts ?

[Ma Cherie]

First and foremost, I want to ask has there been any kind of attempt to educate the average japanese about different races and cultures? From all the rumors I have heard it seems to me that some japanese tend to display their ignorance about other cultures. I am not trying to sound like a racists, but I wonder if there has been an effort made to try to educate some japanese people about other races. And most importantly, will they be open minded to learning about other cultures?

[Maciamo]

First and foremost, I want to ask has there been any kind of attempt to educate the average japanese about different races and cultures? From all the rumors I have heard it seems to me that some japanese tend to display their ignorance about other cultures. I am not trying to sound like a racists, but I wonder if there has been an effort made to try to educate some japanese people about other races. And most importantly, will they be open minded to learning about other cultures?

It may seem very contradictory, but many Japanese are interested in foreign countries and cultures, and are ignorant about them at the same time. Fore example :
- Japanese do travel a lot - for short periods, though, and rarely attempting to learn about the local culture apart from the food.
- There are more foreign language schools per square metre in Japan than anywhere else in the world, but Japanese are famous worldwide for being poor at speaking any foreign language.
- Japanese have imported and copied so much from the West and other countries that it would seem natural for them to feel somewhat international. Al Japanese can read the Roman alphabet although it isn't used in Japanese.
-There are thousands of foreign (mostly English) katakana words in Japanese, and the number increases fast each year. What other language on earth continually imports so many words from outside nowadays ? But yet, the words are often given a different pronuciation and meaning from the original ones, principally because of the ignorance of the masses who use them and the little care of the authorities to educate them.
- Japanese are often eager to learn about "foreign countries" (gaikoku), but always seem to end up with the simple stereotypes and not much beside. At worse, they mix all countries up and create false stereotypes that are valid for all foreigners.

So it seems that there is a real desire from many Japanese to learn about the "outside", but they very rarely seem to have the ability to get it right(even among those who have lived abroad). I think it may be due to the influence of an overly prejudiced and simplistic society. Another cause is the lack of critical thinking instilled by the Japanese education system, as well as a general tendency of the Japanese population to be interested in simple things (food, sex, manga...) or stress too much the importance of emotions over rationality (as seen in Japanese TV programmes, series, movies and manga). Unfortunately, emotions without critical thinking lead to easy stereotypes, or when negative, to prejudice and racism (even dormant or non-violent, it's still racism).

One of the results of the lack of critical thinking of the Japanese is that many of them do not hold strong opinions, and indeed are very influenceable. This may seem bad, but it can also be a very good thing, as most Japanese will not have the self-motivation to act "in an extreme manner" without support from the group. So, even being racist, they are hardly aware of it themselves, because they care little about what it means, and don't think much about the implications. Most Japanese have little interest in politics because they are too fickle to hold strong opinions that requires a critical or rational judgement. I think that this is not only typical of the Japanese, but all (South-) East Asians. To illustrate, throughout China's history, people's loyalties could shift easily from the losing to the winning side, because they didn't fight for a cause or principle (including religion), but for more down-to-earth reasons such as food, money or power.

I believe that East Asian societies share this lack of critical thinking and strong practical sense, in addition to a strong collectivism (as opposed to individualism). The positive side is the lack of extremist movements and people fighting for their beliefs or ideas. The negative side that people are fickle, influenceable, and have difficult to have their own opinions and judgement (easy targets for casual stereotypes and prejudice).

[mr.sumo.snr]

Wait another four years and you won't really give a damn. Of course you could take action like that ***** 'Debito' in Hokkaido - perhaps picket outside shops where obassans routinely push in front of others at the check-out.

I am fortunate to be blessed with a bulk sufficient to make squeezing around my colossus at the cash register a total non-starter (it's a hobby!).

You can also play the: "I'm sorry but I don't have my glasses with me so can't read the display. Therefore could you please repeat the total amount due; speaking in clear, precise, and suitably honorific Japanese" game with the high school reji-girls at the local JUSCO (it's a favorite personal pastime!)

[Ewok85]

It depends on where you are I think. Sitting up north in Saitama and south in country Chiba (country = no keitai reception :D) people were generally nice and fairly unassuming, first glance I'm a foreigner, may or may not know Japanese so I'd get a smile and slow simple Japanese, and depending on my answer they'd sometimes pick up a conversation (had a memorable one in a 7-11 amd another in Mos Burger on a quiet evening).

Never had any trouble with the police, and the one time I approached them to see about getting my bike back after it was stolen went well (they originally blanched at the idea of me rocking up at the local station as noone spoke Japanese, so I had to wait while they got someone who 'knew english'. Ended up speaking Japanese anyhow, which kinda voided the original idea). But I have to admit its nice that they make the effort.. (same thing here in Aus, I've dealt with 2 customers over the phone who were Japanese, their english is good but its nice to have someone who knows what you mean in your mother toungue... or at least sounds like they know :P)

There are thousands of foreign (mostly English) katakana words in Japanese, and the number increases fast each year. What other language on earth continually imports so many words from outside nowadays ? But yet, the words are often given a different pronuciation and meaning from the original ones, principally because of the ignorance of the masses who use them and the little care of the authorities to educate them.

Hilarious segment on the evening news on day, I think it was the NHK news... they were on about this. They got 2 fairly recent imports, 'simulation' and a political related one, I forget it right now... and asked people if they knew the word "oh simulation? of course!) and what it meant (ah.. umm... *insert something waaaay off the mark). Was interesting to watch.

[Maciamo]

I am fortunate to be blessed with a bulk sufficient to make squeezing around my colossus at the cash register a total non-starter (it's a hobby!).

You can also play the: "I'm sorry but I don't have my glasses with me so can't read the display. Therefore could you please repeat the total amount due; speaking in clear, precise, and suitably honorific Japanese" game with the high school reji-girls at the local JUSCO (it's a favorite personal pastime!)

I think you completely misunderstood my point. I don't have any problem with being pushed at the counter; my example was just to show how Japanese apologize differently whether the person is Japanese or foreign.

As for showing that you speak well Japanese, I did it, as I sometimes go and buy my bento with my wife, and talk a lot to her (and quite fast by Japanese standard), so that the staff clearly sees that I can speak Japanese. But if I am with my wife, they tend to be more courteous and even smile. If I come back the next day alone, immediately they treat me as if they had never seen me befor, avoiding to smile just for me (not for the Japanese customers present), and speaking differently, with visibly less politeness. That is not only in one particular shop, but neither is it in all shops. I'd say it's about half of them. In some places they actually like to see foreigners and ask me many questions about me or my country. Still, half of the Japanese I meet in everyday life having bad feelings toward foreigners (even good customers) is bothering enough.

[quiet sunshine]

I think that this is not only typical of the Japanese, but all (South-) East Asians. To illustrate, throughout China's history, people's loyalties could shift easily from the losing to the winning side, because they didn't fight for a cause or principle (including religion), but for more down-to-earth reasons such as food, money or power.

About the "influenceable" and "rational judgement", i'd like to write down some of my feelings. In some popular Chinese bbs, I can feel the radical emotion strongly. Some people's words are even rude and uncivil. Not everything under the name nationalism or patriotism is correct, I think, sometimes too nationalistic seems parochial. I don't know if it has relation with our education system, but i remembered when I was a teenager I knew nothing and cared about nothing except study. Teachers like to see this phenomenon I guess, and they never taught us thinking independently. That's just my personal exprience and feeling, things may have been changing.

[mad pierrot]

when it comes to dealing with foreigners. (In general.)

I think it mostly has to do with cultural elitism. Now, before everyone starts jumping all over me for saying this, keep in mind exactly what I said. I didn't say other cultures aren't guilty of this as well, or that this is the most horrible thing in the world.

My case in point: The types of questions I get asked. Because of my job, I travel frequently and come into contact with new groups of people all the time. The most common type of questions I get asked by students, (encouraged by the teachers) are "what Japanese things can't you do" kind of questions. I think everyone who has been to Japan has heard these kind of questions, but my point is that most Japanese people are only interested in hearing about what makes Japan unique. This can then lead to the attitude that Japan, and by extension Japanese people are better than foreigners. What bothers me the most is that this attitude is encouraged by teachers. By itself, this is mostly harmless, but coupled with xenophobia it can potentially be troublesome.

For example: Police starting to single out foreigners. A friend of mine living in the nieghboring town has been hassled twice by cops, just walking down the road at night. I've been stopped twice riding my bike, and asked to show ID and submitted to a variety of questions for as far as I could tell, no good reason. (This is a town of 2,000 people...)

Of course, this is an extreme example. Otherwise, it's just mostly annoying when people who have known me for two years treat me like I'm mentally retarded. It's annoying as hell when a school you've been to 20 times still thinks you can't use hashi, eat fish, read a menu, sit seiza, or do anything else that a foreigner stereotypically can't.

And, as long as I'm on a rant.... ;)

Man, it drives me nuts when I'm asked, "Do you have this in America?" when it's something obviously not from Japan. Especially words, like "virus."
(Rolls eyes.....)
I've compiled a list of things I've been asked if are in America....
1. 4 seasons
2. convenience stores
3. Disney Land
4. Snoop and Winnie the Pooh
The list goes on.....

Now, of all the problems in the world today, these are fairly insignificant, and I know I'm nit-picking. I love Japan and I've had wonderful experiences here. Just because I'm criticizing doesn't mean I'm Japan bashing, but this is something that needs to change.

Also, I want to back up what Ewok said. Ironically, I didn't notice most of these issues until I ended up living in the countryside. In Osaka, most of it went by unnoticed.

[Mike Cash]

when it comes to dealing with foreigners. (In general.)





Of course, this is an extreme example. Otherwise, it's just mostly annoying when people who have known me for two years treat me like I'm mentally retarded.

I have long maintained that the greatest unfairness about Japan is that while foreigners are often treated like idiots, idiots are never treated like foreigners.

[mad pierrot]

I have long maintained that the greatest unfairness about Japan is that while foreigners are often treated like idiots, idiots are never treated like foreigners.

:D :D :D

Good stuff. The question is, how do idiot foreigners get treated?

[Maciamo]

Thanks for your explanation, Mad pierrot. That is exactly how I feel about the treatment of foreigners in Japan. There doesn't seem to be any difference at all between central Tokyo and rural Wakayama. Japanese are the same regarding their attitude to foreigners everywhere (as far as I know, from hearing stories from people living al around Japan).

The solution I have found to the "being treated like a retarded" situations is to make them feel as if they are the one to have asked an utterly stupid question, so as to culpabilize them on their ignorance and hope they don't reiterate (even with someone else) later.

For example, if they ask me if there are 4 seasons in my country, I smile and ask them whether they don't know that all European countries had four seasons (and I think to myself "haven't you learn about geography and worldwide climates at school to ask such dumb questions ?").

When somebody is surprised that I like sushi, I have to explain to them that (according to our polls (http://www.jref.com/polls.shtml)), sushi is the favourite Japanese food of more than half of the foreigners, and that indeed, the most common type of Japanese restaurants in Western countries is sushi bars.

When I explained my irritation to such questions to my wife, and asked her why even her friends (who know how long I have been in Japan, etc.) ask me the "can you use chopsticks and eat sushi" questions, she replied that "they were just trying to be nice". "So", I continued, "why are they doubting my ability to use chopsticks just because I am a foreigner. That's very insulting, not really what I'd call 'trying to be nice'." She claimed not to have thought about that before. Anyway, that doesn't help improve my opinion that the vast majority of the Japanese, as polite as they may be, are shallow and act in a stereotypical manner, as if they were all robots using an identical programming.

But what I find the most shocking is when Japanese think that they invented everything they use, see or hear in everyday life in Japan, when in fact so many things are Western. In the same way as Mad Pierrot explained how some Japanese don't seem to know that Winnie the Pooh is English and not Japanese, many Japanese think that many Western things are originally Japanese (but are not). Here are a few examples that spring to mind :

- New Year's cards (nengajo). I heard so many times "In Japan, we have a tradition of sending greeting cards for the New Year; what about your country ?". In fact, the Japanese copied the Western tradition of Xmas and New Year wishes. Even the date of the 1st January as the New Year is from the Western Calendar (since late Roman times, as Janus was the 'Roman god of presided over doors and beginnings', and marking the beginning of the year). The traditional Japanese New Year was not on 01/01, and it is still not on 1 Jan. in China, Thailand, India, etc. where they keep celebrating their own traditional New Year.

- many famous pieces of music used in Japanese TV (esp. commercials) are in fact classical music from Europe, or traditional folk or military music from Europe or the USA. An incredible amount of music on Japanese TV is not Japanese, but as they often rearranged them, sometimes with Japanese lyrics, many Japanese think that this or that music is Japanese. For example my wife thought that "Jupiter" (from Gustav Holst' Planets) was Japanese music, when it's some 100 year-old English music.

[Harvey]

- Japanese do travel a lot - for short periods, though, and rarely attempting to learn about the local culture apart from the food.


This is so true :lol:


You can also play the: "I'm sorry but I don't have my glasses with me so can't read the display. Therefore could you please repeat the total amount due; speaking in clear, precise, and suitably honorific Japanese" game with the high school reji-girls at the local JUSCO (it's a favorite personal pastime!)


Hahaha, if I didn't already wear glasses, I would try that one out! Maybe I'll just tell them my eyes are bad with them on anyway. Hilarious!


It's annoying as hell when a school you've been to 20 times still thinks you can't use hashi, eat fish, read a menu, sit seiza, or do anything else that a foreigner stereotypically can't.


Preach on! I HATE It when you've been talking with people for like an hour over dinner, in Japanese, and then it finally comes out, ohh you are so good with chopsticks!

What the heck!! Why the heck would you expect that someone who has learned conversational Japanese could not use chopsticks!! Unbelievable. Even babies figure out how to eat before they can speak....

I love you guys.

Hey check out the book ダーリングは外国人。 It is written by the Japanese wife of a German guy. It's in most bookstores in Japan now and selling quite well. I think it does a good job at explaining to the Japanese the types of things that well..

tick us off.

[quiet sunshine]

Man, it drives me nuts when I'm asked, "Do you have this in America?" when it's something obviously not from Japan. Especially words, like "virus."
(Rolls eyes.....)
I've compiled a list of things I've been asked if are in America....
1. 4 seasons
2. convenience stores
3. Disney Land
4. Snoop and Winnie the Pooh
The list goes on.....
Your posts are sooo long! The examples are really funny, I can't help laughing... :lol: can't believe who will ask those questions?

[Ewok85]

Wait until you let out "yeah, we have four seasons but its the opposite in Australia, when its summer in Japan its winter in Australia", call me mad but hardly anyone I met in Japan can get their head around that one... :D

[ragedaddy]

Man, it drives me nuts when I'm asked, "Do you have this in America?" when it's something obviously not from Japan. Especially words, like "virus."
(Rolls eyes.....)
I've compiled a list of things I've been asked if are in America....
1. 4 seasons
2. convenience stores
3. Disney Land
4. Snoop and Winnie the Pooh
The list goes on.....

Yeah, here goes the strangest thing I have ever heard a Japanese ask a foreigner, it comes from one of my buddy's homestay Brother.... Do all Americans own a gun, and have you ever shot someone? I have been asked that a couple times as well, if all Americans carry around guns. That is utterly lunacy at it's finest. I know a lot of US news that makes it to Japan is related to violence, murder, and other negative aspects, but to contemplate that everyone in the US has guns is ludicrous.

I agree with Maciamo's point to a certain extent. When I was living in Tokyo I noticed too that many of the tenins' would give the formal greetings to Japanese customers, but when it came to me I'm lucky that I got a Doumo. However, it seemed like the majority of these people who displayed the lack of politeness to me tended to be older. Although, there have been many times where younger aged workers would actually be polite to me as they would to any other Japanese person. I remember this one time when older guy rang my stuff up, and after I received it I told him "arigatou gozaimasu," and the guy forced out a muttered "doumo." Therefore, with my experience I have noticed younger people are likely to be more respectful than older generations. This is what I gathered from living there, but who knows that's just my opinion.

I think that some reasons of people asking me like, "You can actually use chop sticks," or "You can speak Japanese," comes from the fact that there are many Japanese who have never been exposed much to Western cultures. In my opinion, it seems that some people tend to be a little more "Naive," than ignorant. It may seem insulting to Westerners, but I think there are Japanese people that have never fathomed the concept of Westerners actually being able to do such tasks.

[lexico]

However, it seemed like the majority of these people who displayed the lack of politeness to me tended to be older. Although, there have been many times where younger aged workers would actually be polite to me as they would to any other Japanese person......Therefore, with my experience I have noticed younger people are likely to be more respectful than older generations.Very interesting you say that, ragedaddy.
I've been wondering:
Why are most of the Japanese I've met in school so cheerful, polite, easy to get along, mature, (mutually) respectful, and absolutely without obvious prejudice, whereas quite a few of the aged people I've met are often rude, illogical, stubborn, and "child like."

Your observation solves some of my long-held mystery about the strange differences I've seen.

But then again, young American's were so much more natural and friendly than some of my older neighbors who seemed starkly prejudiced if not racist.

EDIT: seemed shoud be acted

[Pachipro]

Am I missing something here or has something drastically changed in Japan? I have never felt the way some of you do in my 16 years living there and my yearly visits. Like Maciamo, I rarely met any foreigners, save for a few friends and none of my Japanese friends spoke a lick of English.

Sure, I get frustated sometimes over the "20 question" routine I get over, and over, and over again, but I've become accustomed to it. This is Japan after all and you are going to get it again and again. Get used to it.

Here are my thoughts on the subject:

For example, no later than today, as I was queuing at the supermarket cashier, the careless woman in front of me walked back and stepped on my foot. She first started a typical "ahh, suuumimaseeen !", but as she turned and saw that I was not Japanese, her voice faded before she finished her "sumimasen" and she just walked away with a strange look on her face. This has happened to me times and again.

Why was she "careless"? Isn't that a mistake that ALL people, regardless of race make? She started to apologize, but when she saw that you were a foreigner, she probably became flustered and was at a loss for words. She assumed that you didn't speak Japanese and she didn't speak another language and she more than likely, became embarrassed and didn't know what to do. That "strange look on her face" as you put it was, more than likely embarrassment. It will happen to you again and again.

First, when I mentioned that to my wife or some Japanese friends, I heard "excuses" such as "they think you don't understand Japanese because you are a foreigner", or the like. But these are really just (prejudiced) excuses.
They are right. Why must they always be "prejudiced" excuses? Why must you assume that because she was probably flustered that their excuses to you were prejudiced? And why do you think they are "excuses"? They are probably telling you the truth.

At the place near my house where I usually buy my bento, and have been going for 3 years, the staff (you should know m by then), still hardly says anything to me and when they have run out of one kind of bento, make signs crossing fingers and speaking in strange Japanese as if I couldn't understand. They have heard me speak fluent Japanese with my wife, and could not possibly not remember me, but still act in such prejudiced ways (while I always speak Japanese with my Japanese friends, and the have no problem understanding me at all).
Have you tried addressing them first like, "Good morning. Nice day today isn't it? I hope it doesn't rain today." Do you have a conversation with them everytime you go in there? I did at the places I used to frequent for dinner and such and I was always treated the same as other Japanese customers. I never felt any different. And here again you say they "...still act in such prejudiced ways." Again the word prejudice pops in. Why?

The worst is when those kind of shop's staff thank the previous (Japanese) customer with "arigoto gozaimaashitaaa, mata okoshi kudasaimaseee" then when it is my turn, they just don't say anything or mumble a quick and dry "arigato gozaimass" as if they were angry.
Again, why assume that if they don't say anything or mumble a quick arrigato that they may be angry or treating you different? Can it not be that they are shy or flustered when it comes to dealing with foreigners? Again, why not engage them in conversation each and every time?

This week again, as I was riding my bike at lunchtime in crowded central Tokyo, a police car stopped with the policeman rushing toward me and asking if that was my bicycle and checked the registration number. There were other bicycles around, so my intentionally stop me for no reason. That is very embarassing in front of hundreds of people (and made me come late to my appointment, as it took a few minutes).
Look, you are a foreigner in Japan, and like myself, you will be stopped now and again on your bicycle and asked for proof of ownership, etc. Foreigners, as well as Japanese, are known to steal bicycles. Hell, I even stole one out of frustration one night when no cab refused to pick me up. I will post that story shortly. Why assume that because they stopped you they were prejudice? It's their job to stop foreigners on bicycles. It never bothered me when I found out why they stopped me. It's just a fact of life there for foreigners.

The policeman was also surprised that I spoke so well Japanese and asked me if I had lived for over 10 years in Japan. Again that is very prejudiced to think that foreigners can't speak decent Japanese just after a few years's stay (or maybe because he couldn't do the same in English).
Again, I am just amazed that you use the word prejudice again. Why assume that because he asked you if lived there over 10 years that he is prejudiced? Can't you say "I think it's very prejudiced..." instead of "..that is very prejudiced.." Why make a blanket statement like that? He is more than likely surprised and impressed, as the Japanese find that any foreigner who can speak their language fluently must have lived in Japan a very long time as the Japanese themselves find it very difficult for them to learn a foreign language. When the police stopped me and found out that I also was fluent, I was usually treated with respect and I never felt that they were prejudiced just because they asked me how long I lived in Japan.

But taking things a step further, I'd like to say that the attitude of many Japanese toward foreigners is very different from the one they use between themselves. When the "foreigner" is a "customer/guest" (kyaku-san) and people treat him/her even better than they would treat a Japanese, with lots of blatant flattery (sometimes annoyingly so, like the fake expression of amazement at how well a gaijin can use chopsticks or eat sushi - which in fact conceals a deep-rooted cultural prejudice that foreigners are inferior to Japanese).
Here we go again with a blanket statement of "-which in fact conceals a deep-rooted cultural prejudice that foreigners are inferior to Japanese." Do you know this to be a fact? Or are you just assuming again? Can't you understand and accept that the Japanese will always flatter you with your use of chopsticks, or the fact that you eat sushi, or sleep on a futon, or can speak Japanese and read kanji? They are genuinely impressed because most foreigners DON"T or CAN'T. It is not a "fake expression of amazement". It is real. Sure it can be annoying, but I came to accept the fact that it will happen again and again and again and again. Just because they do it, it does not mean they are prejudice unless you know something I don't.

But when the foreigner is not a "kyaku-san" or reluctantly so (esp. in small shops), we can see how this was really hypocrisy, as this time the gaijin is treated like a weird animal and not even like a standard Japanese customer.
Another blanket statement. It is not hypocrisy. You may want to feel like you were treated like some weird animal, but I am sure you did not receive the same treatment in all stores in your own country, just I do not here. I may have been treated with a little aloofness now and then in a Japanese store, but I did not feel like I was a weird animal. I knew it to be out of frustration or embarrassment at not being able to speak the foreigners language.

One chooses to feel how one wants to feel and if one wants to feel like one is always being prejudiced against, or being treated like some weird animal, or that no one likes you because one is a foreigner, then that is one's right. But take it from me, with over 30 years experience with Japan and the Japanese, I think you are way off the mark with your blanket observations and statements as I have never felt the way you do. Don't get me wrong here, in some instances I was angry, or upset, or thought "Oh no, here we go again with the praise and questions." But I have learned to understand why and accepted it without thinking that the Japanese are prejudice or hypocrits, because in my opinion they are not. Sure you have your typical few who do not like foreigners under any circumstance, but it is the same in any country I think.

How do I know this? Because I have many Japanese friends who do not speak English and have never been to a foreign country and have asked numerous Japanese over and over again why are they are so amazed at foreigners who know their language and customs. Why are we always praised for our use of chopsticks and such? Why is it that some Japanese refuse to acknowledge in a store that we are speaking Japanese and the answer is always the same: "We are so impressed when a foreigner learns our language and customs that we must say something as it is very difficult for us to do the same. (Translation:mental block) We sometimes are so tuned in to the fact that 99% of the foreigners that we do meet (which is not often) cannot speak Japanese that we sometimes do not hear that they are speaking Japanese. (Mental block again) If we encounter one, we become so embarrassed, shy, or flustered, that we do not know what to do so we say nothing or something real quick and leave." Thus the lady who stepped on your foot, the policeman who was surprised at your Japanese, the constant praise you get for something as so simple as using chopsticks.

Me, I've learned to live with it and go with the flow because I know it will happen again. Just look at the "gaijin tarento" on TV. They get the same questions and praise.

You run a great place here Maciamo and my hat is off to you, but I do hope you come to look at Japan and the Japanese like a glass of water that is half full instead of half empty.

[JustJosh]

Maybe you just look shifty?

[Maciamo]

Therefore, with my experience I have noticed younger people are likely to be more respectful than older generations.

That is true to a certain extend, but there are also older people polite and respectful to foreigners (esp. if they have had contacts with other foreigners before), and young people that are downright racists (I have had a few yakuza-like men shouting at me in the streets as I was quietly riding my bicyle). I have also noticed than young teenagers and especially children tend to be more insulting toward foreigners. It is not that they stare, point their finger and giggle (like bad-mannered children do all around the world), but listenning to their remarks, you can see how their parents or environment has already instilled them prejudice against foreigners.

For example, the other day a 10-year-old or so boy was near my house when I came back home (I think his grandmother lives in that street), but he kept looking at me with suspicious eyes and followed me till my doorsteps. He asked 2 or 3 times with a contemptful voice "nani shiteru no ?" ("what are you doing here ?"). So, as I was going to open my door, I turned to him and replied politely "koko ni sundeimasu" ("I live here"), and he just said in a surprised and still suspicious way "nihongo dekiru no ?" ("oh, can you speak Japanese ?") and he ran away. I could feel that he was not the kind of boy happy to me a foreigner, but at the contrary looked at me as if I was a criminal.

I think that some reasons of people asking me like, "You can actually use chop sticks," or "You can speak Japanese," comes from the fact that there are many Japanese who have never been exposed much to Western cultures.

That's not true. It's impossible not to be exposed to Western culture everyday in Japan. Most movies at the theatre and many movies and series on TV are Western (while there are virtually no Japanese or Asian movies showing in Western countries). There are so many Westerners in Tokyo that it is impossible to take the subway without seeing one. Then with tens of thousands of NOVA, AEON, GEOS and other language schools where teachers are all native speakers (so foreigners), and millions of Japanese attending these classes (even if just a few times), there is a much higher chance that the average Japanese has already met, talked to or at least observed Westerners on TV many times, rather than the average Westerner having met a Japanese (except those living near very touristical spots).

In my opinion, it seems that some people tend to be a little more "Naive," than ignorant. It may seem insulting to Westerners, but I think there are Japanese people that have never fathomed the concept of Westerners actually being able to do such tasks.

These are fake excuses. I know many Japanese people who have lived in Western countries and still ask such dumb questions. Even the Japanese who were introduced to me by a Western friend (and thus having at least one Western friend) still ask these routine questions. Maybe its' just a custom of greeting foreigners in Japan to ask them if they can eat natto or sushi and if they can, try to ask for other kind of food until there is one sort of Japanese food the foreigner cannot eat. But I can feel that they want to be unique and want the "foreigner" to appear inferior for not being able to do such simple everyday things as eating such or such food, using chopsticks or reading kanji (when in fact many Japanese are not very proficient themselves).

Last week, as I was substituting a group English class and reading an English/Japanese article, a 50ish woman seemed very surprised that I could read the kanji for such "difficult" terms as pledge (公約), catastrophe (大災害) or refugee (難民), although these are all pretty basic kanji. When I hesitated for the first kanji of a word (援助資金 : relief fund), she said "aah, anshin shita yo !" ("aah, I feel better now !") as she just couldn't accept the fact that a foreigner could read Japanese after staying only 3 years in Japan. I could feel that deep inside this person wanted to feel like the Japanese were superior to the rest of the world. It didn't help when she proudly said a few minutes later that, "the news on TV said that Australia had pledged the largest relief fund for the Tsunami victims, but in fact it was Japan that had already donated the highest sum so far, and that Japan was the biggest donor in the world". I had to correct her that it was actually the EU (but she didn't seem very happy by that truth).

[PopCulturePooka]

Can't you understand and accept that the Japanese will always flatter you with your use of chopsticks, or the fact that you eat sushi, or sleep on a futon, or can speak Japanese and read kanji? They are genuinely impressed because most foreigners DON"T or CAN'T.
Oh bollocks!

I have met scads of westerners that use chopsticks. My 70 year old quite conservative grandmother can use chopsticks.
Almost every foreigner in Japan I've met eats Sushi and can sleep on a single matress on the floor.
Its plain ignorance to be shocked, amazed or even complimentry to assume we can't. In fact its downright insulting, its an assumption that we aren't as good as them in some respects.

And in terms of language, my father has been here two days and can say 'sumimasen'. Yet for some Japanese that would be enough for them to start laying on the over done compliments about how good his Japanese is.

Its patronising.

Anyway I have a tale I've told before.

Being a poor eigo sensei living alone I hit the local Lawsons konbini for my dinner bento about two or three times a week. During holidays I go more than that. Have done this for a year. Heck even had a friendly chat or two with one of the young guys there and tried to get the number of one of the girls.

So theres an older women who works there most nights.
She serves me a lot.
And EVERY time she serves me, she wont speak a word except to ask if I want it heated and EVERY time she uses gestures to ask if I want a fork, and EVERY time I ask that I instead want chopsticks (in Japanese).
This dance has been danced for a year. I'm a fairly obvious gaijin with big punk spiked hair and occasionally flashy clothes.

Yet she always asks if I want a fork.

Stupdity.

When I worked high volume retail I served scads more customers than she would and managed to remember regular customers and some small facts about them.

[Maciamo]

I have met scads of westerners that use chopsticks. My 70 year old quite conservative grandmother can use chopsticks.
Almost every foreigner in Japan I've met eats Sushi and can sleep on a single matress on the floor.
Its plain ignorance to be shocked, amazed or even complimentry to assume we can't. In fact its downright insulting, its an assumption that we aren't as good as them in some respects.

Same for me. I don't know anyone who has lived in Japan and still can't use chopsticks.

And in terms of language, my father has been here two days and can say 'sumimasen'. Yet for some Japanese that would be enough for them to start laying on the over done compliments about how good his Japanese is.

It's only natural. I learnt hiragana and katakana in a week.

So theres an older women who works there most nights.
She serves me a lot.
And EVERY time she serves me, she wont speak a word except to ask if I want it heated and EVERY time she uses gestures to ask if I want a fork, and EVERY time I ask that I instead want chopsticks (in Japanese).

I know. Same with me, and not only at combini. Even at the dry cleaning, local cafes, etc.

[Ewok85]

I have also noticed than young teenagers and especially children tend to be more insulting toward foreigners. It is not that they stare, point their finger and giggle (like bad-mannered children do all around the world), but listenning to their remarks, you can see how their parents or environment has already instilled them prejudice against foreigners.

...and the other stuff...

This is a mixed bag, you can be sitting on a train and some young child will sit and stare at you (and I'll make faces back, its only fair :p) and thats OK, I can definitely understand it in Pookas case. Then you have the ones that ask slighty strange questions to their parents who give stranger answers back.

I helped teach 9-12 year old children a martial art and they have to be the most open and unassuming Japanese I've ever met (2nd being university students from a medical university, great people, would love to meet them all again). Apart from an initial "oh, you speak japanese" it was on, they'd just let loose with their favorite tv shows, what had happened at school that day, all the latest playground goss, and afterwards their parents would say Hi and they soon knew me and accepted me as just another person in the group, no assumptions, no special treatment, no strange questions.

I guess if you look hard enough you'll find something, but otherwise you'll just be stuck in a crappy loop...

[Maciamo]

I helped teach 9-12 year old children a martial art and they have to be the most open and unassuming Japanese I've ever met (2nd being university students from a medical university, great people, would love to meet them all again). Apart from an initial "oh, you speak japanese" it was on, they'd just let loose with their favorite tv shows, what had happened at school that day, all the latest playground goss, and afterwards their parents would say Hi and they soon knew me and accepted me as just another person in the group, no assumptions, no special treatment, no strange questions.

I guess if you look hard enough you'll find something, but otherwise you'll just be stuck in a crappy loop...

I have met kids as you describe, but so far they have been a minority of the younger Japanese (under 15) I have met. What surprises me is that such kids would come at me and say strange things in the street (or make comments about "gaijin"to their friends/parents assuming I can't understand what they say).

[mad pierrot]

@Pachipro

In respect to the "blanket statements" that have been made, I urge you to look over the post again and look at the disclaimers! I don't think the half empty/half full argument is the point here; rather, it's the way Japanese people in general react towards cultural outsiders. When I first came to Japan, I spent a year living in Osaka. And, like it's been said, I was subject to the same inane questions as every other foreigner. It didn't piss me off. It never has. It might get annoying once and awhile, but obviously it hasn't driven me to hysterics. It has made me more interested in why Japanese people perceive foreigners as being so. I'm simply curious as to the underlying social aspects of this. Again, this isn't just groundless complaining, but rather a critique in general. Calling all sociologists...

I wasn't going to post this next story originally, but I think it's relevant now.

I've been living in a small town in Wakayama now for about two years. The people here are always nice to me, and incredibly friendly. Consequently, I've done my best to take part in the community, volunteering with people, visiting my neighbors, etc. I have never known such great people. Example: When I was sick during Christmas, EVERYBODY took care of me. My neighbors brought me hot soup, took me to the hospital, my boss brought me TONS of food, people were always calling to see how I was doing. Those were the nicest things anyone has ever done for me. My neighbors even came over and did my dishes. (The tried to clean my whole house, but I stopped them. :) )

That's the good story. Next comes the bad one. The bad reflects quite negatively on these same people, but it makes a valid point. Not sure if I'll post it yet.

[Pachipro]

Man, it drives me nuts when I'm asked, "Do you have this in America?" when it's something obviously not from Japan. Especially words, like "virus."
(Rolls eyes.....)
I've compiled a list of things I've been asked if are in America....
1. 4 seasons
2. convenience stores
3. Disney Land
4. Snoop and Winnie the Pooh
The list goes on.....

But what I find the most shocking is when Japanese think that they invented everything they use, see or hear in everyday life in Japan, when in fact so many things are Western. In the same way as Mad Pierrot explained how some Japanese don't seem to know that Winnie the Pooh is English and not Japanese, many Japanese think that many Western things are originally Japanese (but are not).

Let's reverse this. Is it not the same in America and Europe? Don't most, especially the younger generation, feel that most everything they see was invented in their own country?

My wife and I have been asked similar things here in the states. It's always hot in Japan isn't it? Do you have TV's, satellite TV, highways, CD players, etc. Most people assume that Japan is still a third world country. They are ignorant of the fact that Japan is a modern, industrialized country much like the US or Europe. Heck, most Americans don't even know that a large majority of what they perceive to be American products are in fact foreign. Shell oil and Toyota come to mind. They, mostly the younger ones, are shocked when they find out that Shell is in fact Dutch, and Toyota is a Japanese company. A few even assume that "Cup of Noodle" is an American invented product. Much the same as in Japan with your observations above. It must be the same all over and I don't think it is unique to Japan.

Does it bother my wife and annoy her that, after 16 years in the states, she is asked similar things by Americans? (She's even asked often if she eats meat!) No, she just tries to educate them and has come to understand that a majority of people are not taught about Japan. It's a sad but true fact.

Therefore, while in Japan as "educators" why not try and educate the Japanese rather than being annoyed to the point of irritation? After 30 years experience, I do not think it is going to change. Those questions will come time and time again until someone educates them. So far, I don't think it is going to be the educational institutions.

Personally, I enjoyed answering the "stupid and dumb" questions over and over and over again, after laughing out loud first, as it was an opportunity to teach somebody something they didn't already know. Afterwards, I'm sure they would not ask that question again of a foreigner as now they were enlightened. I used to love watching the kids, Junior and High, and even some college students', faces light up with shock, disbelief, and surprise when they were informed that Disneyland is not Japanese, Snoopy was born in America, and the "Circle K" and "7-11" combinis are American among other answers. I think I remember reading somewhere that "7-11" is now owned by Ito Yokkado.

I used to answer in Japanese, "Of course I can eat with chopsticks, eat sushi, sleep in a futon, cook my own rice, etc. etc. I've lived here for 16 years!" My polite answer to their "dumb" question kind of humbled some of them and I'm sure they felt awkward asking that question.

Don't get me wrong here, I was just as annoyed during my early years in Japan as some of you to the point of wanting to scream at the top of my lungs, "What! Are you all a bunch of idiots! Are we all nothing but talking dogs to you people, here for your amusement?" But I learned to study, observe, and learn from the Japanese people and culture and why they acted in this way. I asked many questions of the Japanese. Soon, my thinking slowly turned 180 degrees and it no longer irritated me as I learned that, no matter what, the Japanese are basically not prejudiced, xenophobic, or have an underlying dislike of all foreigners. They are just a curious island people who were taught that they, their history, and their ways are unique to the rest of the world and any foreigner that adapts, or tries to adapt, is the most curious and unique of all. Answering "dumb" questions, I hope, helped set the record straight with those I came in contact with.

Therefore, I looked at myself as a kind of unofficial "cultural ambassador" as it was obvious that no one else was going to educate them.

[Shooter452]

:D :D :D

Good stuff. The question is, how do idiot foreigners get treated?

With compassion and patience, at least on Okinawa. And we have given them cause to show both.

I have to admit Maciamo, I have never experienced this walking the streets of Naha, or any other town on Okinawa. Of course, they may be more accustomed to the presence of gaijin on their streets because of the greater density of US military personnel, dependants, and even tourists than the residents of Tokyo experience. Except during the brief periods of political madness that seem to sweep the island about once each year, the Ryukyan people are the most patient, forgiving, and tolerant I have ever known...perhaps because we have compelled them to endure and tolerate so much foolishness, I dunno.

[Maciamo]

Let's reverse this. Is it not the same in America and Europe? Don't most, especially the younger generation, feel that most everything they see was invented in their own country?

That must be only in the States. Americans however have better reasons to be confused, as many famous people moved to the States and become American (eg. Einstein), or some famous companies from other countries are bought up by big US multinational (eg. Belgian chocolate Godiva is now American).

My wife and I have been asked similar things here in the states. It's always hot in Japan isn't it? Do you have TV's, satellite TV, highways, CD players, etc. Most people assume that Japan is still a third world country.

Again, that must be only in the US. Most Europeans see Japan as a resolutely modern country. The first things that spring to mind to a European about Japan is technology, electronics, robots, futuristic cars and video games - well before the traditional culture. But it was such a shock for me to see how backward Japan actually was in so many respect (socially, politically, architecturally...) and I had no idea, that I feel it a duty to make the world (or my fellow Europeans) know about it. On my first day in Tokyo, I thought I had arrived in Bangkok (where I have been, so I can compare).

[Maciamo]

Heck, most Americans don't even know that a large majority of what they perceive to be American products are in fact foreign. Shell oil and Toyota come to mind. They, mostly the younger ones, are shocked when they find out that Shell is in fact Dutch, and Toyota is a Japanese company.

What ! Is there people in the States who think that Toyota is American !! :mad: That doesn't improve my image of the average American, I can assure you !

And FYI, Shell is half-British, not 100% Dutch.

[mad pierrot]

Let's reverse this. Is it not the same in America and Europe? Don't most, especially the younger generation, feel that most everything they see was invented in their own country?

First, you must not have read my first post. To quote myself: I didn't say other cultures aren't guilty of this as well,

Therefore, while in Japan as "educators" why not try and educate the Japanese rather than being annoyed to the point of irritation? After 30 years experience, I do not think it is going to change. Those questions will come time and time again until someone educates them. So far, I don't think it is going to be the educational institutions.

Who said I wasn't? :) You're missing my point; I'm not bashing their behavior. Japanese people react uniquely to people from outside their culture. And yes, every culture does this, in different ways, as I've already said.

Japanese are basically not prejudiced, xenophobic, or have an underlying dislike of all foreigners.

Would you deny that Japanese society has xenophobic tendencies? Again, I think you've misconstued what I've been saying as a personal attack on Japanese people.

Most people assume that Japan is still a third world country.

I'll have to disagree here. Even some of the poorly educated kids I knew from the city know that Japan is industrialized.


Here's an interesting example to talk about: Today I was having lunch at a school I've been teaching at for 2 years. The teachers sitting next to me where having a discussion about the Bush regime and it's policies with North Korea. As they were speculating about the US government, I politely offered some comments on my perceptions. (In Japanese.) And, (I'm not joking) the response I got from the Kocho Sensei was "Do you have ka-re in America?"
(We were eating curry udon for lunch today....)

Does this strike you as strange? I can guarantee you this kind of thing happens frequently. And I'm not ragingly bitter about it. I smiled, told him yes and went on to have a nice lunch. Is it wrong for me to want to hear other's speculations on this kind of behavior?

[Maciamo]

Who said I wasn't? :) You're missing my point; I'm not bashing their behavior. Japanese people react uniquely to people from outside their culture. And yes, every culture does this, in different ways, as I've already said.
...
Would you deny that Japanese society has xenophobic tendencies? Again, I think you've misconstued what I've been saying as a personal attack on Japanese people.
...
Here's an interesting example to talk about: Today I was having lunch at a school I've been teaching at for 2 years. The teachers sitting next to me where having a discussion about the Bush regime and it's policies with North Korea. As they were speculating about the US government, I politely offered some comments on my perceptions. (In Japanese.) And, (I'm not joking) the response I got from the Kocho Sensei was "Do you have ka-re in America?"
(We were eating curry udon for lunch today....)

Does this strike you as strange? I can guarantee you this kind of thing happens frequently. And I'm not ragingly bitter about it. I smiled, told him yes and went on to have a nice lunch. Is it wrong for me to want to hear other's speculations on this kind of behavior?

Again, I completely endorse Mad Pierrot's comments. I feel the exact the way (but I am not in the mood to put it so eloquently today). Thanks again.

[Maciamo]

Personally, I enjoyed answering the "stupid and dumb" questions over and over and over again, after laughing out loud first, as it was an opportunity to teach somebody something they didn't already know.

I used to enjoy it too at teh beginning, but after one or two years it's getting tiring to be asked always exactly the same routine questions by 90% of the new people you meet. Rather than answering, I try to make them reflect a bit about the meaning of their question. For example, if someone ask me if "my country has four seasons like Japan", I reply one of the following :
- But I thought Japan had 5 seasons, with the tsyu (rainy season)
- But seasons aren't the same everywhere in Japan. Look Okinawa doesn't have seasons (or just wet and dry).
- Oh, my country has 6 seasons : cold & dry, cold & wet, cool & dry, cool & wet, warm & dry and warm & wet. What about Japan ?
- Which part of my country are you referring to ?
- Sometimes I feel that Japan doesn't really have seasons, as the sun sets as early as 6:30pm in summer and 5pm in winter, while in my country it sets at 10pm in summer and 4pm in winter (and doesn't rise before 8 or 9am in winter).
- Do you know any European country that doesn't have 4 seasons ?

Afterwards, I'm sure they would not ask that question again of a foreigner as now they were enlightened.

I have experienced a few times that the same person asked me twice a dumb question a few weeks later. I usually don't forget what I was asked by some particular person, especially if it struck me as dumb, or on the contrary, intelligent.

I used to answer in Japanese, "Of course I can eat with chopsticks, eat sushi, sleep in a futon, cook my own rice, etc. etc. I've lived here for 16 years!" My polite answer to their "dumb" question kind of humbled some of them and I'm sure they felt awkward asking that question.

Well, I hope it didn't take you 16 years to get use to that. Rather than saying how long I have been in Japan to explain that I can do these things, I say that I could already do them before coming to Japan, as most people can.

For the "can you eat this or that food" questions, I always return the question, and it appears that quite a few Japanese cannot eat either sushi (about 10%) or natto (about 50%). If they ask me about food (yes, I can eat sushi, uni, tofu and hijiki, but I don't like natto), I also ask them if they can eat frogs, snails, kangaroo, ostrich, venison, rabbit (oh, kawaisooo !), turkey, lamb, goat, crocodile or fried insects. I can eat all of them. I have asked about 30 Japanese about these, and usually they can't eat most or any of them. Who is laughing now ?

[Pachipro]

Well, this thread has generated some good, decent discussion which I enjoy very much. No one here is bashing Japan, there is just a difference of opinion as to why we feel Japanese are more hypocritical with foreigners. To continue going "Point-Counterpoint" would be just rehashing the same opinions.

I clicked on the link "Big Daikon" that Mad Pierrot (thank you Mad Pierrot) recently posted in another thread and came across a thesis by a Phd that seems to answer the question of why foreigners feel discriminated and not accepted in Japan regardless of their knowledge of the Japanese language and culture. This guy said much of what I was trying to say, but I was not as articulate as he. His theory, I think, is well founded. I am posting parts as a new thread to generate some discussion and that maybe more will read it. It's too bad that he never finished the book he was going to write as his site has been dead since May, 2002. I would've loved to read the rest of his thesis.

[Maciamo]

I clicked on the link "Big Daikon" that Mad Pierrot (thank you Mad Pierrot) recently posted in another thread and came across a thesis by a Phd that seems to answer the question of why foreigners feel discriminated and not accepted in Japan regardless of their knowledge of the Japanese language and culture.

I thought that article had been written by Damon of Japan.box.sk (his site was quite successful but eventually shut down for some reasons). Either "Dan E. Vez" is a pseudonym (very likely actually), or he "borrowed" that article for his site (or was it somebody else who posted it ?).

[kirei_na_me]

I'll have to disagree here. Even some of the poorly educated kids I knew from the city know that Japan is industrialized.

Yeah, same here. I live in the South and most of the "rednecks" around here know enough to know that Japan is known for their highly advanced "gadgets" and also know that it's a wealthy country.

And as far as not knowing brands like Toyota, Sony, Panasonic, etc., are not Japanese, that just doesn't happen around here. The most countrified, backwoods, uneducated person around here is bound to say something like "those Jap brands ain't no better than ours". It's not very nice, but they do know where they originated.

Everybody around here gets my husband to help them with anything electronic. Why? Because he's Japanese, of course. How's that for stereotyping? :p

Here's an interesting example to talk about: Today I was having lunch at a school I've been teaching at for 2 years. The teachers sitting next to me where having a discussion about the Bush regime and it's policies with North Korea. As they were speculating about the US government, I politely offered some comments on my perceptions. (In Japanese.) And, (I'm not joking) the response I got from the Kocho Sensei was "Do you have ka-re in America?"
(We were eating curry udon for lunch today....)

Reminds me of the time I was talking to a couple of female Japanese friends about the American soldier(s) and the rape controversy(ies) in Okinawa. I was trying to ask their feelings on the matter, and I got a very shocking remark from one of them. I won't say what it was, but it really took me by surprise, and in a very bad way.

[Pachipro]

I don't know Maciamo, I followed the links to his site and it does seem that he indeed wrote it, but like I said, that site, although still active, has not been updated since May 2002. He supposidly returned to Japan at that time. Regardless, his theory does seem valid to me.

[Pachipro]

I live here in the South also. Nashville, TN. We had a friend over last weekend and were watching the football game on TV. This friend asks my wife if they have football in Japan. He then asks if they have baseball and other such sports! This guy is not uneducated, but why ask a question like that? It just shows one's ignorance. I challenge anyone to ask your average American to point out Japan on a blank map and more than two thirds will be unable to do so. Granted not ALL americans feel or think the way I replied above, but quite a few of them, and I do mean the younger ones do. One of my nephews and a couple of aquaintences thought that Sony and Panasonic were American companies. Call themm dumb if you want, but they have a college degree! Apparently the educational instutions are lacking somewhat. Meet enough people and you will come across those that don't know some of the things I listed. Maybe I've travelled too much and met too many people as a truck driver, I don't know. But more than a few Americans are pretty ignorant when it comes to foreign countries and products. Same as in Japan.

[Maciamo]

Call them dumb if you want, but they have a college degree! Apparently the educational instutions are lacking somewhat.

A college degree is not what makes a person intelligent. There are plenty of dumb people with a college degree (and some who don't but are intelligent). I guess anybody motivated and hard-working enough can get a college degree if they tried.

Japanese acyually understand that a degree is just a worthless piece of paper. When a company recruits, they don't look at how well people performed at university/college, nor even what they have studied. What matters most is the name of the university/college, which is often in turn linked to the primary and secondary one has studied at (eg. entering Keio primary school almost guarantees you to enter and graduate from the prestigious Keio University). And what does determine who enters such elite schools first ? Money ! Japanese often claimed to be a class-less society, but it's so similar to the elitist "public schools & Oxbridge" system in the UK. Americans also often think they don't have social classes, which I never understood as the social-economic differences between US citizens are among the biggest in the world. I think the reason is that both Americans and Japanese are not aware of their own class system. That may be one important similarities between them.

Meet enough people and you will come across those that don't know some of the things I listed. Maybe I've travelled too much and met too many people as a truck driver, I don't know. But more than a few Americans are pretty ignorant when it comes to foreign countries and products. Same as in Japan.

I am starting to see more and more similarities between Japan and the US. Of course, Japan was partially modelled on the US after WWII, but does that explain the generally poor common knowledge and world knowledge, and the narrow range of intellectual interests of both the average American and Japanese ? I would like to add the Australians in the list too. What is the similarity between these three countries ? They are isolated and have a strong sense of their own (national) identity.

We could also argue that they all have a pretty short history. In fact the history of the US and Australia is the same as that of Europe before the first colonists arrived (the natives had no writing system, so no history in the technical sense of the term). In the same way Japan only got its writing system in the 6th century AD (well over 1000 years after Europe and over 3000 years after the Egypt or Babylon). But what makes me consider that Japan has a relatively "new country" is the fact that the concept of Modern Japan as a nation only came with Meiji - before each region felt as different countries, with their own dialects. In contrast the US defined itslef as a nation in the modern sense 100 years earlier.

[ArmandV]

What ! Is there people in the States who think that Toyota is American !! :mad: That doesn't improve my image of the average American, I can assure you !




While we were touring Japan last summer, a Japanese person asked one of our tour members if we have McDonalds in America. :-)

Some there may think that McDonalds originated in Japan.

[ragedaddy]

That's not true. It's impossible not to be exposed to Western culture everyday in Japan. Most movies at the theatre and many movies and series on TV are Western (while there are virtually no Japanese or Asian movies showing in Western countries). There are so many Westerners in Tokyo that it is impossible to take the subway without seeing one. Then with tens of thousands of NOVA, AEON, GEOS and other language schools where teachers are all native speakers (so foreigners), and millions of Japanese attending these classes (even if just a few times), there is a much higher chance that the average Japanese has already met, talked to or at least observed Westerners on TV many times, rather than the average Westerner having met a Japanese (except those living near very touristical spots).

First, the exposure that A japanese person gets from a Western Movie or TV program would not tell them much at all about Western culture. In fact, these would create many more stereotypes and generalizations due to the fact that these movies and shows don't even come close to accurately portraying the West. Now that I think about it, no wonder some Japanese people ask Americans if they all carry guns, because you can see it in several movies guns, violence, drugs. How are they to know that this isn't all hyped up and is not the typical scenario in the West. It would be absolutely foolish to say that the Japanese can get a good sense of Western culture from these shows.

You think that seeing foreigners on the street and in subways tell a Japanese person anything about who that person is, or what there culture is like? Even the English teachers at NOVA or where ever they go through the lesson, and that's about it. They don't focus all their lessons on the Western culture. The only way that you are going to learn about the Western culture from these people is to sit down with them and have an in depth chat about it.

These are fake excuses. I know many Japanese people who have lived in Western countries and still ask such dumb questions. Even the Japanese who were introduced to me by a Western friend (and thus having at least one Western friend) still ask these routine questions. Maybe its' just a custom of greeting foreigners in Japan to ask them if they can eat natto or sushi and if they can, try to ask for other kind of food until there is one sort of Japanese food the foreigner cannot eat. But I can feel that they want to be unique and want the "foreigner" to appear inferior for not being able to do such simple everyday things as eating such or such food, using chopsticks or reading kanji (when in fact many Japanese are not very proficient themselves).

These are not necessarily fake excuses, because I have met people who do not know much about the Western culture, nor have that much interest in such a thing. What ever happened to the golden rule "There aren't any stupid questions." If you have no idea about a subject and you are inquisitive about it, then by all means the person should ask. At times I get frustrated with the stuff myself, but then I have to tell myself they really want to know, so I better clarify what they are asking.

[Maciamo]

First, the exposure that A japanese person gets from a Western Movie or TV program would not tell them much at all about Western culture. In fact, these would create many more stereotypes and generalizations due to the fact that these movies and shows don't even come close to accurately portraying the West. Now that I think about it, no wonder some Japanese people ask Americans if they all carry guns, because you can see it in several movies guns, violence, drugs.

Hey, adults are big enough to discern between fictional action movies and fanastic ones like Harry Potter, or those actually depicting real life like many romance or "true stories" do. Do you believe that all Japanese are samurai because you watch a Kurosawa movie ?

You think that seeing foreigners on the street and in subways tell a Japanese person anything about who that person is, or what there culture is like?

Observing people is a good start. Certainly better than never have seen a foreigner before. There are also higher chances of interaction, like asking one's way, etc. Small things, but that counts.

Even the English teachers at NOVA or where ever they go through the lesson, and that's about it. They don't focus all their lessons on the Western culture. The only way that you are going to learn about the Western culture from these people is to sit down with them and have an in depth chat about it.

Almost all my English lessons include telling my students about Western (well at least one particular country)'s culture, making comparison with Japan, or just explain the difference of system, lifetsyle, mentality or whatever. How can you teach a language without teaching the culture where it comes from with it ?

What ever happened to the golden rule "There aren't any stupid questions."

Whose golden rule is that ? I mean, from time to time it's ok, but when 9 people out of 10 that you meet ask you almost only stupid questions all the time (I have had such days in Japan, although not everyday of course), there is a limit to one's patience.

If you have no idea about a subject and you are inquisitive about it, then by all means the person should ask.

Do you sincerely believe that the vast majoriy of the Japanese do not know that European countries have four seasons, that McDonald and Disney are American, or that we have New Year greetings card in Western countries too (because it originated there) ? And what does difference does it make whether I (one particular foreigner, maybe completely different from the others) can eat this or that food or not, that it is such a ritual question ?

[Vinylhoer]

Hey, adults are big enough to discern between fictional action movies and fanastic ones like Harry Potter, or those actually depicting real life like many romance or "true stories" do. Do you believe that all Japanese are samurai because you watch a Kurosawa movie ??I think it isn't always easy to discern between fiction and reality in films. There are of course some obvious things (like the samurai thing you mention), but usually the things where the wrong ideas originate are the little details. That could for instance be a subtle 'joke' in an American film of which only Americans will know it is a 'joke'. Foreigners might take this seriously and a wrong image is created.

I think every country has it's own customs and the people are aware of that. If I notice a foreigner eating some typically Dutch food that's, usually a nice way to start a conversation with that person. So maybe those dumb questions are just used by Japanese people as an opening to start a conversation. Maybe they already know that you have McDonalds in America, but if that's one of the few things they know about America that might be the only opening they have to start a conversation.

[Maciamo]

I think every country has it's own customs and the people are aware of that. If I notice a foreigner eating some typically Dutch food that's, usually a nice way to start a conversation with that person. So maybe those dumb questions are just used by Japanese people as an opening to start a conversation. Maybe they already know that you have McDonalds in America, but if that's one of the few things they know about America that might be the only opening they have to start a conversation.

Except if the "foreigner" they address is not American ! Unfortunately, some Japanese (I'd say 10 to 20%) tend to assume that any Westerner is American. Some people in the street (especially in rural areas) just shout "hey America !" when they see a Westerner. But the worse is that many Japanese still don't make the difference even when they know that the person they are talking to is NOT American. How many times have I not been asked "Do you have this in America ?" or "How would Americans do ?", when the speakers knew very well I was not American. Sometimes I gets so much on my nerves that I just reply to my Japanese interlocutor "well, who do you Chinese do ?". I was perticularily shocked that some Japanese I had known for 2 years (and met regularily) would still consider me as an American. Then you have those who say "what about America ?", then realise their mistake and say "well, I mean in Europe".

[den4]

tons of 7-11 on the west coast...
I don't know about Europe, but I believe that the Japanese folks that ask the "stupid" questions would not do so if it was in their native language...ok...most of the people...and even the bright intelligent ones I believe have this severe "complex" when it comes to dealing with the "gaijin" that even though in more calm rational times they would not behave that way, when it comes to dealing with foreigners, their "complex" that is typified by a past NOVA commercial of having all of the nihonjin turning into "rocks" when confronted by a foreigner explains the rather irrational nature of the questions.
The reason I say this, and for those that know me here know that I know nothing so probably shouldn't stick my neck out with this explanation, but from my own personal observations, I often wondered why the Japanese ask these dumb-ass questions when it comes to foreigners...whether it was based on prejudice, racism, or just out and out irrational "gaijin complex" that makes one person behave ultra extroverted around foreigners and another to clam up tighter than the shellfish...

The advantage (or disadvantage) I had to learn some of this is that because all of my ancestors came from the land of the rising Engrish, the one thing they always told me when they found out I was amelikajin was that I look like a Japanese, so they weren't intimidated by my appearance. This, of course, had the negative side-effect that many times people thought I was a complete idiot when I didn't understand what one of them was saying to me. But one learns to live with one's handicaps... :D
In the ideal world, I agree that the Japanese would do better if they stopped looking upon foreigners with awe or shock-horror...but since that ain't gonna happen any time soon, it's probably best to just "accept" the fact that in the long run, you aren't going to change their ideas or views of foreigners...the only thing you can change is how they perceive you...and also how you perceive them...and also how you perceive how they perceive you...
Since you're practically a native speaker there, it goes without saying that you know the history and the current trends probably better than I would, (alternatively, if you are not practically a native speaker, then get into practice so you can be! :D ),but the one thing I did learn in Japan was that nobody forced us to go there or live there or put up with the nightmares or joys that one can find there, so if the complaints become too unbearable, then it naturally goes that nobody is forcing anybody to stay there, either...but it is obvious that you find the stay there far outweighs the negatives, so that is why you stay...and that should be reason enough to also just learn to accept things for what they are, and if you have the ability to change one or two people to get out of their gaijin complex, then that should be the goal, rather than stressing out on why the people ask the stupid questions....
It is very easy to focus on the negative aspects of living in Japan...but the challenge is how are you going to break that cycle of stupid question asking or their clamming up when they encounter you? Or your own frustrations with their constantly saying, "Gee you use that chopstick very well..."
Be proactive....the next time somebody says that to you, find an opportunity when they are using a spoon or a knife and fork at an elegant spaghetti restaurant, and smile, kindly and say, "Gee, Sato-san (or whomever it happens to be) you really use that fork very well..."
It's really all about perception...and how one perceives others perceiving us...and how well you take advantage of that perception to better your own situation...or not... :D
This has been a generalized statement not directed at any one person but to everybody or nobody as you wish to perceive it... :D

[Maciamo]

I don't know about Europe, but I believe that the Japanese folks that ask the "stupid" questions would not do so if it was in their native language...

So how comes I am asked the same questions in Japanese, and even by people I have known for some time (who may ask again and again, several kind of strange questions) and who visibly feel comfortable with me ?

Regarding the "4 seasons" question, my wife said that they were taught at school that Japan was almost unique for having 4 seasons. I just can't believe it. I was taught that countries with temperate climates, like in Europe, most of North America and North-East Asia, Argentina, Chile, Southern Australia, N-Z, etc. have 4 seasons. But I understand the educational gap when I was told that not everybody in Japan has geography classes at school if they don't choose it as an option. In comparison, everyone in most European countries and regions have 6 years of compulsory geography/geology/geopolitics (and history) classes. Maybe that is the only reason why there is such a gap of "common knowledge". On this point of view, the US and Japan are quite similar, but Japan's case is even worse, whatever they say about Japan having a harder education system than the US.

Additionally, as I said I find some questions or remarks insulting (the chopsticks or "nihongo jozu desu ne" said apparently only to beginners who mix all their words up). Today, there was a TV programme about the Korean community in Tokyo. They went to a Korean grocery shop with the camera, and when the Korean owner (probably Japan-born) said "konnichiwa" the Tv staff replied "oh nihongo kozu desu ne !". The poor guy had just said "hello", so how could they know ? What's more it's not the kind of things they should say to long-term resident (as he was, as a business owner), who could very welll have been born and raised in Japan like so many other Koreans. I find this utterly insulting and condescending from the Japanese. Just because he is a foreigner the Japanese presuppose that he can't speak Japanese (well). The fact that this happened on TV (and not the only time) shows how the Japanese do not mind being patronizing with foreigners. And as the guy looked Japanese and lived in Japan, it wasn't even because of any gaijin-complex or whatever.

[den4]

So how comes I am asked the same questions in Japanese, and even by people I have known for some time (who may ask again and again, several kind of strange questions) and who visibly feel comfortable with me ?
There are no doubt some people that may appear visibly comfortable with the foreigner, such as yourself, but are you really sure about that? Have you ever asked the person to consider what they are saying? Well, chances are that you have done so, and if your comments are of any indications, the answers you received weren't satisfactory, yes? Perhaps if you reversed the trend by asking them bizarre questions might job some reactions, but then chances are you'd only get referred to as the weird gaijin, so that may not work either. I suppose it's best to find the nihonjin that are on the same level as you are, conversationally, and ignore the others except for basic salutations....
Chances are good, however, that the persons in question you are referring to have never really considered what their questions indicate, if they are weird, strange, offensive or whatever...it might be good to inform them of this, if you have a mind to do so...but then, depending on the person, it could also be a waste of time.....I've dealt with folks here, in the Great US of A who when dealing with things they are familiar with can talk on an even keel, but try to explain something they are not familiar with, they also begin asking or commenting in a rather naive way...but to each their own....I do get annoyed when I still meet people who think that Japanese people all are geishas and samurais and can't figure out how they make them Toyotas and Nissans.... :D
But then, the reverse is true, when I get asked by the Japanese if folks in the backwater state of Oregon still have cowboy and Indian wars...
otagaisama desu :D

[Pachipro]

....their "complex" that is typified by a past NOVA commercial of having all of the nihonjin turning into "rocks" when confronted by a foreigner explains the rather irrational nature of the questions.
This further exacerbates the problem foreigners are having in Japan when a Japanese company like NOVA, uses to their advantage, that national complex to increase their student population. This doesn't help as, 30 years later, nothing has changed and, at this pace, I'll be long gone if it does. The only good thing is that there will always be employment for English teachers in Japan.

It is very easy to focus on the negative aspects of living in Japan...but the challenge is how are you going to break that cycle of stupid question asking or their clamming up when they encounter you? Or your own frustrations with their constantly saying, "Gee you use that chopstick very well..."
Each foreigner living in Japan will have to come to grips with this on their own, in their own way. I've seen it eat up some foreigners to the point of them having to leave the country because they couldn't cope with the difference in culture and attitude.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, don't get me wrong here, I was just as annoyed during my early years in Japan as some of you to the point of wanting to scream at the top of my lungs, "What? Are you all a bunch of idiots! Are we all nothing but talking dogs to you people, here for your amusement?" But I learned to study, observe, and learn from the Japanese people and culture and why they acted in this way. I asked many questions of the Japanese and learned why they think the way they do. Soon, my thinking slowly turned 180 degrees and it no longer irritated me as I learned that, no matter what, the Japanese are basically not prejudiced, xenophobic, or have an underlying dislike of all foreigners. They are just a curious island people who are being taught that they, their history, and their ways are unique to the rest of the world and any foreigner that adapts, or tries to adapt, is the most curious and unique of all. Answering "dumb" questions, I hope, helped set the record straight with those I came in contact with.

[ArmandV]

As irritated some of us may get over repeated questions from the Japanese population, they may get as equally irritated by some inane questions some of us foreigners may ask of them.

After my first trip, people back home kept asking, "Did you sleep on the floor?" My stock answer was, "No, I slept on a futon." Inane questions from fellow countrymen may be just as irritating to us. Some people never bother to leave their fishbowls to experience other countries and their cultures for themselves as many of us had. I guess it is part of our cross to bear as world travelers.

[Pachipro]

You are quite correct ArmandV as I tried to explain in a previous post. I agree with you in that, like you, I prefer to make the world my backyard while others prefer to make their world their back yard. I think I read that somewhere once.

[ArmandV]

I prefer to make the world my backyard while others prefer to make their world their back yard.


Thanks! I'll have to remember this one!

[den4]

the problems become when the borders between the yards become merged or confused.... :D

[Maciamo]

But I learned to study, observe, and learn from the Japanese people and culture and why they acted in this way. I asked many questions of the Japanese and learned why they think the way they do. Soon, my thinking slowly turned 180 degrees and it no longer irritated me as I learned that, no matter what, the Japanese are basically not prejudiced, xenophobic, or have an underlying dislike of all foreigners. They are just a curious island people who are being taught that they, their history, and their ways are unique to the rest of the world and any foreigner that adapts, or tries to adapt, is the most curious and unique of all.

I am not sure it makes me feel better to know that they are being taught (=lied to) that their country is unique about such things as having 4 seasons (when not all parts of Japan doesn't even have them). After all, by whom are they being taught ? By other Japanese, by tens of thousands of school teachers, by their parents or by society as a whole. So how do you distinguish the person who is taught and the one who teaches others ?

What I don't understand is how naive they can be in the first place to believe all that nonsense that is taught to them. Keeping with the example of the 4 seasons, how can they not know that Europe or most of North America has 4 seasons, when most Japanese know Vivaldi's 4 seasons (why would have it been named like that 300 years ago if the 4 seasons were unique to Japan ?) or don't they see in Western movies or in the news on TV that it is cold and snowing in winter and that people go skiing (not a Japanese invention!), but that all the flowers forcedly bloom again in spring and that people are in t-shirt in summer and go to the beach. Don't they see like in their own JTB travel agencies that there are "autumn leaves" (koyo) tours in Canada, New England, Norway, etc. Don't they know there are cherry trees outside Japan, when they mostly eat imported American cherries, and eat German cakes like "Black Forest" with German black cherries ? I may still forgive them for not knowing that Northern Europe has more distinct seasons than Japan because of its higher latitude, and that summer days are much longer (like 17h of daylight) and winter days much shorter (about 7h of daylight).

[Maciamo]

As irritated some of us may get over repeated questions from the Japanese population, they may get as equally irritated by some inane questions some of us foreigners may ask of them.

After my first trip, people back home kept asking, "Did you sleep on the floor?" My stock answer was, "No, I slept on a futon." Inane questions from fellow countrymen may be just as irritating to us. Some people never bother to leave their fishbowls to experience other countries and their cultures for themselves as many of us had. I guess it is part of our cross to bear as world travelers.

This may be due to the fact that you are from the States. I went back home this January and met about 20 relatives and friends I hadn't seen for 4 or 5 years (before I came to Japan), and not a single one of them, not even the children or the elderly, asked me a stupid question. They asked how was life in Japan, what I did there, or asked me to explain about the writing system, etc. But no questions related to samurai, geisha, sleeping on the floor, and not even a single question about food I think (and certainly no stupid questions to my wife about her ability to eat European food).

[den4]

This may be due to the fact that you are from the States. I went back home this January and met about 20 relatives and friends I hadn't seen for 4 or 5 years (before I came to Japan), and not a single one of them, not even the children or the elderly, asked me a stupid question. They asked how was life in Japan, what I did there, or asked me to explain about the writing system, etc. But no questions related to samurai, geisha, sleeping on the floor, and not even a single question about food I think (and certainly no stupid questions to my wife about her ability to eat European food).

Consider yourself a fortunate person to have family and friends that are as enlightened as they are (at least from the way you describe them)...alternatively, if things continue to trouble you there in grand ol' Nippon, then it sounds like you need another vacation away from the land of the rising engrish, so you can weigh the benefits or penalties of living there...

Having said that, there have been many times when the Japanese folks I talked with also wonder why they need to explain everything to us foreigners. If we understand the language as well as we think we do, then, they ask, why do we need to ask them to explain the reasons for why the things are the way they are...can't we just figure it out by the nuance of the way things are spoken? I have heard their frustration over this as well...that we tend to think too much in binary that we forget there are other ways of thinking about things that we may not be used to, or completely ignore, because we have become so set in our ways...

An example is the word Kan that I hear many times, referring to that elusive "intuition" that is so prevalent in J-society...take two Japanese and if one of them is a bit out of sorts, without really expressing an explanation on how they are feeling, they can "nantonaku" figure out that something is up...even though the reason for their condition or situation or feelings are not verbally expressed in any way that be explainable in a word or two in English...

While I do agree that there are many people that do ask stupid questions, I still feel that this comes from that innate combination of unprepared awkwardness and the ultra wanting to avoid embarrassment plus irrational panic mode thinking that most Japanese people tend to have when dealing with people that speak in English...this may also be true with other languages...but I think English is the major culprit...

Perhaps it is time for you to try an experiment...in the great tradition of Eddie Murphy and make-up for films like "Black like Me," or in Eddie Murphy's parody, for Saturday Night Live's "White like me..." perhaps it is time for you to try and fathom what life is like for a Japanese person by becoming one...you obviously have the linguistics down, so all you need is the proper make-up and some coaching from your friends and Japanese peers, and see what it is like to be Japanese...and see if you can gain some inner insights into what Japan is like from the Japanese perspective, and see for yourself how the typical Japanese person is treated vs. say the foreigner...You'll have to set aside your western logical thinking style, as well, if you intend to blend in with the surroundings...but perhaps this will be the only way you can get some first hand information on things that continue to trouble you there...

it is merely an idea... :wave:

[jt_]

An example is the word Kan that I hear many times, referring to that elusive "intuition" that is so prevalent in J-society...take two Japanese and if one of them is a bit out of sorts, without really expressing an explanation on how they are feeling, they can "nantonaku" figure out that something is up...even though the reason for their condition or situation or feelings are not verbally expressed in any way that be explainable in a word or two in English...This is a really fascinating discussion which unfortunately I don't have enough time to comment fully on, but for now I just want to say in reference to the above: I personally don't buy this idea that there's some mystical intuition that is possessed uniquely by the Japanese. I think this basically just comes from the fact that since many Japanese are taught (trained?) to keep certain feelings to themselves, trying to figure out how other people are feeling without being explicitly told becomes both a virtue and even a necessity.

On the other hand, someone from a culture where people are more open with their feelings will be accustomed to people telling them straight out how they're feeling, or when something is amiss, and therefore won't be consciously going around trying to "read" people and figure out what they're hiding (or at least not showing) all the time.

Also, the idea that there are feelings that can't be expressed in Japanese as directly as they could be in English for example is silly (I know this isn't necessarily exactly what you were saying, but I think there are some native Japanese speakers who might try to argue this) -- people may think this is so because they don't say these things, but of course it's possible to be explicit and direct in Japanese -- people just don't do it. It's cultural, not linguistic.

But anyway, I think the mystical Japanese intuition or "kan" is just basically a skill for "reading" people that's born out of the necessity of doing so in a society where people are hesitant (or to some extent, even taught/trained not to) speak their mind.

[PopCulturePooka]

This may be due to the fact that you are from the States. I went back home this January and met about 20 relatives and friends I hadn't seen for 4 or 5 years (before I came to Japan), and not a single one of them, not even the children or the elderly, asked me a stupid question. They asked how was life in Japan, what I did there, or asked me to explain about the writing system, etc. But no questions related to samurai, geisha, sleeping on the floor, and not even a single question about food I think (and certainly no stupid questions to my wife about her ability to eat European food).
You're lucky.
Been back home 5 days, barely met anyone again yet but already the idiotic questions have started.

'Did you eat raw fish?'
'Did you buy schoolgirls panties?'
'Did you see Godzilla?'

[Maciamo]

An example is the word Kan that I hear many times, referring to that elusive "intuition" that is so prevalent in J-society...take two Japanese and if one of them is a bit out of sorts, without really expressing an explanation on how they are feeling, they can "nantonaku" figure out that something is up...even though the reason for their condition or situation or feelings are not verbally expressed in any way that be explainable in a word or two in English...

I agree with everything JT has commented on this. Again, I feel very much that your point of view is basically an "American vs Japanese", which doesn't take into consideration all the cultures of Europe.

Many North Europeans have as difficult, and I'd say sometimes more difficult, than the Japanese to express their feelings. Personally, there are several people in my family who will never say how they feel, and one really needs to be a fine psychologist or have a lot of intuition to understand their feelings. Sometimes I am like that too (but much less than, say, my father), and my wife, with all her "cultural training" from the Japanese society and in spite of the fact that women are more intuitive, usually has a very hard time to figure out how I feel or what I think. I, on the contrary, can read her mind like a book and often tell her how she feels better than she can herself (she is often surprised by my intuition), thanks to the cultural environment in which I grew up, which I think requires much more "mind-reading" than in Japan.

As I said earlier, when my family came to Japan, they first impression was that the Japanese were very extroverted people, which they likened to the Italians. I think it says a lot about how much more reserved than the Japanese Northern Europeans (British, Dutch, Belgians, Scandinavians, and even Germans) can be. But it is also a fact that the Americans, Australians or Italians are even more extroverted than the Japanese. I think the main difference is that the Japanese are not very concerned about exactitude. They often express in words how they feel (kaze hiita kamo! guai ga warui! atsui! samui! tsukareta! kirei! sugoi! kawaii! uso! shinjirarenai!), but rarely bother to analyse carefully the causes of their feelings, as I would do. Rather than saying "onaka ga itai" (very vague), I'd say "i ga itai" or "chou ga itai" or "chinzou ga itai" or "kihou ga itai" depending on where it actually aches. But there is some truth that the Japanes language also lacks accuracy. There is no difference between "ache" and "hurt", or even between "leg" and "foot" in Japanese. For a person like me who would rather complain of a pain in the quadriceps (in the thigh) or in the calf or shin or ankle rather than just the "leg", one may understand that I find the Japanese unbelievably inaccurate in everyday life. I somewhat pity Japanese doctors, who have to hear their patients say "onaka itai" rather than tell them directly which part of their abdomen aches.

[Maciamo]

You're lucky.
Been back home 5 days, barely met anyone again yet but already the idiotic questions have started.

'Did you eat raw fish?'
'Did you buy schoolgirls panties?'
'Did you see Godzilla?'

I don't think I am "lucky". My family and friends are like everybody else in the Benelux, France or England. I think it's just a cultural difference. The people I met last month were not particularily interested in Japan and so had little knowledge about it, but didn't show it or tried to learn by asking explanations rather than start from an erroneous statement or absurd question. It's not just in the culture to ask stupid questions or display one's ignorance or prejudices. I have few direct experiences with American people, but when I was in Australia, I was confronted to the same kind of dumb questions ("Is Belgium a part of Denmark ?", instead of a more appropriate "Where exactly is Belgium located ?"), or especially prejudiced remarks (like "all the Germans are nazi", or "French people are good at making perfume because they stink") as in Japan. From what I read on this forum, I think the "average" Americans are pretty much like the "average" Australians, that is as ignorant as the Japanese but without the naiveness, respect and desire to learn about "foreign countries".

[PopCulturePooka]

Heh we could go tit for tat.
I could post a list of incredibly idiotic questions asked by Europeans about Australia.
There was an email circualted a few years ago about the very subject in fact.

Lets look at some choice ones:

Q: Does it ever get windy in Australia? I have never seen it rain
on TV, so how do the plants grow? (UK)


Q: Which direction should I drive - Perth to Darwin or Darwin to
Perth - to avoid driving with the sun in my eyes? (Germany)


Q: I want to walk from Perth to Sydney - can I follow the
railroad tracks? (Sweden)


Q: Is it safe to run around in the bushes in Australia? (Sweden)


Q: It is imperative that I find the names and addresses of places
to contact for a stuffed porpoise. (Italy)


Q: Do you have perfume in Australia? (France)


Q: Can I wear high heels in Australia? (UK)


Q: Do you celebrate Christmas in Australia? (France)


Q: Are there supermarkets in Sydney and is milk available all
year round? (Germany)


These are some questions asked by tourists planning to come to Australia to see the Sydney olympics 5 years ago.

[Pachipro]

After all, by whom are they being taught ? By other Japanese, by tens of thousands of school teachers, by their parents or by society as a whole.
The answer is yes, and yes, and yes. As is agreed, the Japanese are a very naieve people and believe, without question, everything that is told to them by their parents, teachers, and the media/government who start the whole process. We all agree that, with the group mentality thinking, no one dare question authority, even if he/she knows otherwise, lest the "protruding nail get hammered down.

Let's take one example of this mindset from the mid '70's that I often use because it is so absurd. European Rossingnoll(sp?), a manufactuer of very high quality skis, I think wanted Japan to lower the tariff or increase imports or something like that. Anyway the Japanese government refused saying that, get ready for this, the snow in Japan was different than the snow in other countries and Japanese ski companies use special materials in their skis to account for this which foreign companies do not. Thus no competition and Japanese ski manufacturers could collude and set high prices for their skis because the materials were superior.

This was said by the government, reported in the media, which in turn the teachers probably taught their students and no one questioned it except the foreign media. Thus, some unlucky foreigner in Japan probably was told this by one of his students or friends and came to the conclusion that the Japanese are ignorant rather than naieve.

Something like this was even said about their rice to stave off foreign imports and protect the rice farmers. Thus, the Japanese pay more for their rice than any country in the world. There are numerous other examples.

So how do you distinguish the person who is taught and the one who teaches others ?
You can't. Unless the government stops setting the rules, and the Japanese people, as a whole, start questioning authority and stop swallowing hook, line and sinker everything that they are taught or hear in the media, foreigners will always be asked absurd questions about their countries by them.

[Pachipro]

FirstHousePooka: Excellent post. This shows that people from all countries are ignorant, to some extent, about other countries and cultures not just Americans, Australians, or Japanese, to name a few. My wife's best friend, who is married to a British gentlemen, came across the same absurd questions from some of her inlaws and her husbands friends. I don't care where one goes in the world, someone intelligent will ask an absurd question about a foreigners country, neh?

[ArmandV]

FirstHousePooka: Excellent post. This shows that people from all countries are ignorant, to some extent, about other countries and cultures not just Americans, Australians, or Japanese, to name a few. My wife's best friend, who is married to a British gentlemen, came across the same absurd questions from some of her inlaws and her husbands friends. I don't care where one goes in the world, someone intelligent will ask an absurd question about a foreigners country, neh?


Exactly!

I would categorize the questions/questioners three ways:

1. Influenced by stereotypes. :p
2. Totally ignorant. :p
3. Inquiring minds want to know. :-)

[jt_]

Maciamo, I agree with many of the things you say here, but I was just curious about this one point about the vagueness of the Japanese language:

Rather than saying "onaka ga itai" (very vague), I'd say "i ga itai" or "chou ga itai" or "chinzou ga itai" or "kihou ga itai" depending on where it actually aches. But there is some truth that the Japanes language also lacks accuracy. There is no difference between "ache" and "hurt", or even between "leg" and "foot" in Japanese. For a person like me who would rather complain of a pain in the quadriceps (in the thigh) or in the calf or shin or ankle rather than just the "leg", one may understand that I find the Japanese unbelievably inaccurate in everyday life. I somewhat pity Japanese doctors, who have to hear their patients say "onaka itai" rather than tell them directly which part of their abdomen aches.I find this really interesting. I can't speak for any the European languages you may speak, but at least in American English (the only language I'm qualified to comment on), nobody makes the distinction between "i" and "chou" when talking about a stomachache. Of course, the words exist, and one can talk about e.g. one's intestines if one so chooses, but a typical English speaker is just going to say "I have a stomachache" or "My stomach hurts". (And again, I'm not sure that the typical English speaker will make a distinction between "ache" and "hurt" there... At least in this case, I would consider them synonymous. "Cramp" might be different, though)

In fact, it was only after going to Japan that I learned to distinguish the two in my speech, when I would mention offhand to my fiancee that my stomach hurts and she would ask me to clarify so she would know what type of medicine to give me (I had never really taken medicine for stomach aches before, anyway, but...). I always found this to be an example where the Japanese language and speakers of it were much more precise about something than native speakers of my own language. I mean, you can point to a word like "ashi" covering both the leg and the foot, but then you can just as easily point to something else like all the seasonal words for rain that exist in Japanese. To an English speaker, rain is just rain and a (rain)storm is just a rain(storm), but in Japanese you get words like 'yuudachi' that refer to specific types of rain that come during specific times of the year. It just seems to me that it goes both ways.

But I think most importantly is to distinguish between what people can say and what they do. Just simply having more unique nouns to refer to certain things, for example, doesn't mean that a language is inherently "more precise" because there are other ways to be specific about what you're saying. Likewise, what people choose to say (itai! omoshiroi! sugoi! kawaii!) does not reflect all that they're capable of saying. If a Japanese speaker says "Kawaii!" about something that you don't find cute at all, you can go ahead and ask them "Doko ga?" without having to worry about them exploding from a lack of linguistic ability to express the specific characteristics of cuteness.

The way I see it, it's very possible to be vague and evasive in English and to be precise and blunt in Japanese -- all it takes is an individual speaker choosing to do so.

[nurizeko]

i learned to use chopsticks at a chinese resturaunt when i was 10-11.

my japanese girlfriend was suprised that A) i had chopsticks at my house, with the rest of my cutlery, B) that i knew how to use them.

she did though try and show me the "proper" way to use them * i can only assume chinese hold chopsticks only slightly differently from japanese because i could use them quite easily and comfortably the way i know, but she was showing me a slightly different way*.

what i think is a good thing to point out is that my g/f was ussually more suprised about the fact japanese culture was so well integrated into british and western culture, when it appears japan knows very little of britain.

ive known how to say konnichiwa since i was 8, and ive known of japan vaguely since i was 8, ive been more aware of japan and its culture since i was 13-14, and ive been pretty well educated on the subject of japan since i was 16.

i agree, japan, or britain, you will find people who know little outside of their own country, in britain these are the majority of the working class, and just extremely mentally idle at school.

in japan its simply the fact that japan provides an enviroment, and personality for japanese, that they dont feel any major need to know, they dont seem to appriciate the idea of learning about themselves and everything beyond purely for the persute of knowledge like education in the west, i agree with the idea that they simply appriciate the simple pleasures in life.


with me ive always been good at geography, biology, keen on history, and learning everything i could get my hands on and assimilate fast enough, now im no genius, far from it, but ive always been very aware that there's a world beyond the borders of my country, and i couldnt conceive being the knid of person who wouldnt by nature, want to learn about it. i like to feel i have a wisdom.

my japanese girlfriend though, is at university, something i would be hard pressed to acheive in my country let alone japans education system, it obviously instills a work ethic of really working hard for what you want, but it seems to completely