PG-rated : 40 reasons to think that the Japanese are superficial

[Maciamo]

I would like to prove once and for all that Japan indeed is a unique society, as about any Japanese would claim. Well, at least it is unique to Western eyes, as Japan may share numerous similarities with its Asian neighours. Here is a summary of my observations of the Japanese people and mindset established after 3,5 years of 'research'.

To assess this uniqueness of the Japanese culture, I did not include material differences (different architecture, food, etc.) which can easily be copied or exported, but only psychological ones (what make the people different). In fact, I have only concentrated on one particular aspect of the Japanese midset : its shallowness (so this study is totally biased from the start, as it does not include anything else). I could very well do one to prove how much more polite, disciplined, or respectful the Japanese are. But it is not the object of this analysis.

The purpose is not to animadvert, excoriate or disparage (sorry, couldn't resist lol), but on the contrary emphasize the idiosyncracies of the Japanese mindset as opposed to the Western median.

The observations hereafter only represent a trend that characterize a majority (i.e. at least 50%) of the Japanese population (sometimes only for one gender group). It may apply to an overwhelming majority of the population (nearly 100%), or only to just about half of it. But still, please take it with a grain of salt and a good sense of humour. Have fun !

- their favourite topic of conversation is food
- when travelling abroad, they care little about the local culture except food
- when they do not talk about food, they talk about money or sex
- The proverbs "money doesn't buy happiness/love" or "don't judge a book by its cover" have no significance in Japan
- clothes do make the man in Japan (which explain the success of brand clothes, black suits and even that of cosplay, bunny girls or the importance that Japanese women attach to their wedding dress)
- people indeed do not get treated the same way (be it in a shop, by government officials, by the police or whatever) depending on how well they dress and look.
- they think an opuent and expensive wedding is necessary for appearances' sake (even if that is way above their means)
- some Japanese companies have a tiny head office in Tokyo (esp. Nihombashi) just for appearances' sake, as it is said to give them a higher status.
- they judge people from their appearance and tend to be easily prejudiced (e.g. toward foreigner-looking persons)
- they use gestures and speak strange Japanese to foreigners who address them in fluent Japanese (or before they have a chance to speak), as if they had convinced themselves that somebody who didn't look Japanese could not possibly understand their language
- however Japanese language is so deficient in vocabulary and acurate expressions that it has to borrow thousands of new words from other languages every year
- the structure of Japanese language is so inflexible and clumsy (no relative sentences, few tenses, few nuances) that Japanese people end up speaking with isolated words (often adjectives, see below) rather than making full sentences.
- they can't debate and dislike serious intellectual discussions (probably due to the language issues mentioned above)
- there are very few intellectual programmes on TV (documentaries, debates, political analysis, social phenomenons, literary discussions...), due to a general lack of interest of the population
- people on TV usualy repeat the same few adjectives all the time (oishii, omoshiroi, hidoi, kirei...) , as if they were linguistically challenged.
- people in everyday life actually do speak like mentioned above
- they ask the same routine dumb questions to foreigners ("can you use chopsticks; can you eat sushi, is there 4 seasons in your country, etc.")
- they tend of lack sexual morals and don't mind cheating "as long as their partner doesn't know"
- they have casual sex with several partners without protection and don't worry about STD's
- they have a computer but don't know much how to use even quite simple functions, due to a lack of interest for technology
- they throw away a dysfunctuning electronic equipment (e.g. computer) or machine, rather than try to repair it
- they call an plumber, electrician or carpenter to repair things in their house, because they are not interested in DIY (Japan is a service country par excellence, due to people's lack of knowledge or interest in a wide array of things)
- they go to juku after school because they sleep or are too slow to learn at school (slowing down the teacher's rythm) and can't assimilate the necessary knowledge to pass the exams. They still end up learning much less than European children in foreign languages, history, geography and critical thinking.
- manga, porn and fashion magazines account for over 90% of convenience stores' literature.
- shops staff repeat "irasshaimasse", then "domo arigato gozaimashita" like robots to anybody that enters or exit, even if the same person comes in and out three times in 5 minutes
- they can't think by themselves, and believe the media, commercials or what people tell them much too easily
- they buy on impulse rather than after careful comparison and analysis
- there are virtually no magazines that test and rate products such as electronics, books, movies, games, etc. They only introduce these products without critical commentary (because the makers/sellers would sue them for being critical !)
- they are a nation of followers that suffer from the "sheep syndrome" => if every jumps in the river, let's jump in the river too ! (i.e. lack of critical and independent thinking)
- as a result, when something becomes fashionable, everybody must have it (e.g. Louis Vuitton handbags), even if that means it looses its uniqueness or originality.
- when a restaurant is "introduced" on TV, one can be sure that it will be full to the brim for the week to come, then people will forget about it as quickly as they had rushed on it (just to show how influenceable the Japanese are).
- they think that most women are just good to serve tea, smile, be beautiful and make children (I mean, the cultural influence is so strong that many Japanese women also think so, not just men)
- politicians are corrupted and inefficient beyond redemption, because they only care about themselves, and not the nation's welfare.
- people accept that politicians are as mentioned above, because they don't expect their own kind to act in a more virtous way
- men don't mind paying huge sums of money just to chat with bar hostesses, because they can't get a girlfriend (sad) or feel that it give them some form of status (shallow)
- about one out of three Japanese men frequents or has already been to one of these hostess bar.
- not being married after the age of 35 or 40 can hurt some people's credibility or status, as people think that there is 'something wrong' with them
- they care a lot about marriage, but little about the eventuality of divorce, so that prenuptial agreements are almost unheard of, because people 'don't like to think that bad things could happen' - while Westerners cannot not think about this eventuality and be prepared for it. Similarily, very few Japanese write their testament. Japanese seem to worry a lot, but rarely about things that matter most.
- many Japanese fathers do not think that they have a role in their children's education. This is so culturally ingrained that in case of divorce, the mother almost always get the exclusive custody of the child(ren), and the father often 'never' see them again - and often doesn't care much anyway.
- they find pleasure in asking foreigners what kind of Japanese food they can't eat - even if they can't eat it themself (never really understood the purpose of those questions)
- many Japanese are convinced that their nation is "unique for being unique" (i.e. they think that all the world is a big melting-pot, but Japan is the only country that is 'pure' and homogenous, which makes it unique, and they are the only nation to enjoy such uniqueness.).

[okaeri_man]

actually theres a lot of truth in all that...

i like how you started with "their favourite topic of conversation is food". lol. i'll probably reply again tomorrow; this thread is really 40 threads in 1!

[Pachipro]

I cannot debate you on any point you have listed. You said it all! It is all true!

[silver angel]

I just learned a lot. It's odd though, sometimes people automatically assume that Japanese are highly into technology, but I guess not...

[ragedaddy]

- shops staff repeat "irasshaimasse", then "domo arigato gozaimashita" like robots to anybody that enters or exit, even if the same person comes in and out three times in 5 minutes

Yeah, talk about annoying when going to Uniqlo and you will hear "Irashaimasse" and "Go Yuukuri Douzo", at least 2 times a minute. Sometimes I seriously wanted to say, I heard you the first time so zip it, but to rectify the annoying voices, I put on my head phones. That way I didn't have to listen to the constant greetings, because after a while this can drive a sane person nuts.....!

[GaijinPunch]

I'll throw out my two yen based on 7 years of research.

- their favourite topic of conversation is food
well... when that's all that's on TV, can you blame them?

- when travelling abroad, they care little about the local culture except food

I'd completely disagree here. When my wife and I go anywhere, even a city where we have friends live, she will spend almost no time with them, and about 90% of her time doing touristy crap... almost none of it food. Also after living in Hawaii, I see hundreds of Japanese monthly getting their pictures taken in front of the statue of the old King, which is miles from Waikiki mind you.

- when they do not talk about food, they talk about money or sex

This one is news to me. I think the fact that most Japanese are part of the seniority based system, there's not much mystery as to who makes what, thus not as taboo to talk about. About the sex thing... if you're talking about men... well.. .what do you think American men talk about? :D

- The proverbs "money doesn't buy happiness/love" or "don't judge a book by its cover" have no significance in Japan

I hate to admit it, but I think the money one is kind of misleading. It doesn't buy happiness, but it definitely makes many aspects of life a lot easier.

- people indeed do not get treated the same way (be it in a shop, by government officials, by the police or whatever) depending on how well they dress and look.

This is very true. I was in a wreck w/o a license. The police man called his chief to ask what to do. He said, "I think he's okay. He looks like he makes money!". My jaw dropped.

- they think an opuent and expensive wedding is necessary for appearances' sake (even if that is way above their means)

Americans share this obsession I'm afraid.

- however Japanese language is so deficient in vocabulary and acurate expressions that it has to borrow thousands of new words from other languages every year

How do you think English came about? Japanese are just late to the game.


- the structure of Japanese language is so inflexible and clumsy (no relative sentences, few tenses, few nuances) that Japanese people end up speaking with isolated words (often adjectives, see below) rather than making full sentences.

You should be thankful for this one though --- means it's easier to learn, yeah?

- they can't debate and dislike serious intellectual discussions (probably due to the language issues mentioned above)

Believe me, they can -- they just don't... at least not when you're around. I used to share these thoughts, but eventually learned I was wrong. Their langauge is FULLY capable of conveying such meanings... most foreigners learning it, however, are not.

- there are very few intellectual programmes on TV (documentaries, debates, political analysis, social phenomenons, literary discussions...), due to a general lack of interest of the population

Again... is this unique to Japan? No way! In fact, America is 1000x worse! When I left the states for Japan, the X-Files & Seinfeld were at the top of the ratings. Both fiction, but you still at least had to think to some extent. Now it's American Idol and reality shows about fat people.

- they ask the same routine dumb questions to foreigners ("can you use chopsticks; can you eat sushi, is there 4 seasons in your country, etc.")

Do you have Japanese girlfriend? When will you get married?, etc.

- they tend of lack sexual morals and don't mind cheating "as long as their partner doesn't know"

Yeah, but in my stint, the 4 worst people I knew about this, two of whom screwed around on their wives were western (1 british, 3 American). Don't get me wrong, the Japanese guys were dogs too, but not on a regular basis.

- they have a computer but don't know much how to use even quite simple functions, due to a lack of interest for technology

Same on this side of the pond. How do you think IT get such good jobs all around the world?

- they throw away a dysfunctuning electronic equipment (e.g. computer) or machine, rather than try to repair it

My theory on this is that it would actually cost to much money getting it to the repair shop. Not everyone has a car... I never did. If I had to pay 3000-4000 yen each way to take a TV in a taxi to the repair shop... well... I'm 8000 yen into a new TV. Throw in the repair bill, maybe 28,000... for an OLD TV? I'd spend the extra 10,000 and get a new one too.

- they call an plumber, electrician or carpenter to repair things in their house, because they are not interested in DIY (Japan is a service country par excellence, due to people's lack of knowledge or interest in a wide array of things)

Guilty as charged. If you work 60+ hours a week, your time generally becomes extremely expensive. If it were between 20,000 yen or 3-4 (maybe a lot more) hours of me fumbling through a DIY book + the time it takes to buy the parts + the money it takes to buy the parts, I'd take the 20,000 yen any day, and go hang out in the park.

- manga, porn and fashion magazines account for over 90% of convenience stores' literature.

What about convenience store literature in other countries? I can't imagine a gas station with nothing but business magazines.


- there are virtually no magazines that test and rate products such as electronics,

www.kakaku.com I've never seen an English mag either though -- but why bother when you have the net?

- politicians are corrupted and inefficient beyond redemption, because they only care about themselves, and not the nation's welfare.

Uh... no comment (should be obvious).

Just a hunch, but I think the better your Japanese gets, and the longer you live there (and of course, the more Japanese people you meet) your views will start skewing a bit more to the "Japan isn't as extreme as it comes off". Happened w/ me.

[Cryptnotic]

Most of these things are exactly the same in America, at least for most of the population. People are only interested in money, sex, clothes, cars, food. People don't care about politics, et cetera. Guys spend lots of money at strip clubs (every guy I know has at least been to one, some have dropped hundreds of dollars at a time). Americans are cheating, lying, shallow people. Or maybe it's just that I live in Los Angeles. :-)

[mad pierrot]

- people on TV usualy repeat the same few adjectives all the time (oishii, omoshiroi, hidoi, kirei...) , as if they were linguistically challenged.
- people in everyday life actually do speak like mentioned above

I almost spit out the milk I was drinking when I read this.

Very true, and very funny!

:p

[Suki-Yaki]

hmmm ... I find it rather sad , that only three months for me here , and I'm already noticing much of what you said ......

By I still can't understand your point of " They don't like technology" the technological Japan could not have come from nowhere , right ??

And , is it true that Japanese kids don't study as much as Europeans at schools ?? I heard Japanese exams are one of the most difficult around the world. A difficult exam takes lots of information .... ??

Just for my information , how do you know Japanese people don't mind cheating on their partner , please , elaborate of how you came to this point ??

[Elizabeth]

I almost spit out the milk I was drinking when I read this.

Very true, and very funny!

:p
Hontou ? I feel more bored than humoured, the same point(s) has or have been made and argued so many gazillions of times in so many threads already....But just to recap, looking through any kanji dictionary clarifies that there is no inherant deficiency in vocabularly, the total number of words, particularly compounds and probably all adjectives I would guess is much greater than in English. (うっとり and ややこしい for instance are more advanced but still fairly common, although I may use the latter more regularly than a native speaker).

The quantity used in daily conversation may be less given the deeply held values of the people which dictate interacting positively with the people around rather than showing how smart you are or playing some sort of intellectual game. Sorry this is such an obvious point....and not that the people should be faulted for any 'deficiencies' in their language. :sorry:
Finally, what precisely have you been wanting to say but have been unable to, Maciamo ?

[mad pierrot]

The quantity used in daily conversation may be less given the deeply held values of the people which dictate interacting positively with the people around rather than showing how smart you are or playing some sort of intellectual game. Sorry this is such an obvious point....and not that the people should be faulted for any 'deficiencies' in their language.

Whoah. I'm sorry if in anyway I gave the impression that Japanese people are inferior in some kind of intellectual game...

:?

Not too long ago I was watching some TV with some Japanese friends and marveling how many times they said "kawaii" in the span of about 5 minutes. My own girlfriend has laughed at the fact of how often she uses that word. Then I logged onto Jref and read Maciamo's post. I thought it was funny. Where's the harm? I guess should be clear on all the details of why I found it funny.

:sorry:

[Maciamo]

I'd completely disagree here. When my wife and I go anywhere, even a city where we have friends live, she will spend almost no time with them, and about 90% of her time doing touristy crap... almost none of it food. Also after living in Hawaii, I see hundreds of Japanese monthly getting their pictures taken in front of the statue of the old King, which is miles from Waikiki mind you.

I think we just have very different ideas of what the word "culture" means. What I meant is that they don't learn about the country's history, mentality, society, arts, religion, customs, or any other interesting you'd find on a site like JREF about Japan or a Lonely PLanet guidebook or even better a 'Blue Guide'. I know they don't because I checked all the popular guidebooks my wife bought when we were travelling (chikyu no arukikata, etc.), and double-checked my local Maruzen and BookFirst bookshops and Japanese guidebooks have like 30 pages about food in introduction (+ pictures of food in the actual travel section) and almost nothing about the 'culture' I mentioned above. That is why I wrote to Lonely Planet to explain the situation and urge them to translate their books into Japanese. About one year later, the first LP in Japanese was published. Don't know if I influenced that or not, but anyway there was a lack on the market.

About the sex thing... if you're talking about men... well.. .what do you think American men talk about?

To tell you frankly, I don't know. But I never talk sex with any other men. What's the point ? And what can you actually want to say about it ?

I hate to admit it, but I think the money one is kind of misleading. It doesn't buy happiness, but it definitely makes many aspects of life a lot easier.

Yes, but that is not the point. Many Japanese think that money is happiness. It's a purpose in itself for them, not a means. When I ask them about their dream, it's always about being rich. When I asked dozens of them what happiness meant for them, the answer was always "having a lot of money" (or things that could be bought with money). No a single one mentioned love, raise one's children, self-improvement, learning, artistic accomplishment, being able to do something very well (eg playing an instrument or speaking a foreign language). With all the Japanese I have met, it was always limited to money and material possessions.

How do you think English came about? Japanese are just late to the game.

Good point actually. But the grammar and pronuciation of English also improved considerably with time.

Believe me, they can -- they just don't... at least not when you're around. I used to share these thoughts, but eventually learned I was wrong. Their langauge is FULLY capable of conveying such meanings... most foreigners learning it, however, are not.

I think they are not good at it because they don't like disagreeing. Avoiding conflicts (and therefore arguments) is deeply rooted in the culture. I didn't say they were better at debating in English, even those with very advanced English skills.

Again... is this unique to Japan? No way! In fact, America is 1000x worse! When I left the states for Japan, the X-Files & Seinfeld were at the top of the ratings. Both fiction, but you still at least had to think to some extent. Now it's American Idol and reality shows about fat people.

Sorry, I failed to mention that superficiality is partly shared by a sizeable portion of the American population. But again my point is not that such programmes exist (as they do everywhere), but that they make up a much bigger percentage of the total broadcasting time than on European channels. What is more, the US has hundreds of TV channels, so it's always possible to find some more intellectual stuff on History Channel, Discovery Channel, etc. In Japan, such channels do exist, but only because they are those American channels (and nothing else that I know of, without satelite).

I think it is easier to compare Japan with some European countries, because the number of channels available is more similar, and because of tax-financed channels like NHK, BBC, or their equivalent in other countries. The worst TV programmes in Europe, at the same level as Japanese TV, are the Italian ones. At the extreme opposite, once again, is the UK, with more documentaries, political debate, social analysis, etc. than one could wish for.

Same on this side of the pond. How do you think IT get such good jobs all around the world?

That's unusual where I come from. What I meant is that there are people who can't even use the control panel of Windows or don't know how to use MS Word. There is no need to take any lesson for that. If you don't know everything is explained in the help (although I never use it as I am pretty intuitive, but I understand that no everybody is good with computers). I was shocked to see the number of "Pasokon school" that tought how to use Excel or Word, the how popular it was. I browsed job ads on Japanese sites that had options for being able to use Windows (and they even specified the version) or Word in the "qualification" section. But who can't ? Are they going to ask whether they can read and write too, or if they are able to use an alarm clock to get up the morning, or if they know how to take the train to the office ?

My theory on this is that it would actually cost to much money getting it to the repair shop. Not everyone has a car... I never did. If I had to pay 3000-4000 yen each way to take a TV in a taxi to the repair shop... well... I'm 8000 yen into a new TV. Throw in the repair bill, maybe 28,000... for an OLD TV? I'd spend the extra 10,000 and get a new one too.

I didn't say that they should take it back to the shop. I know many Japanese that buy a new computer because theirs is "too slow" or because their HD is full. When I asked whether they had tried to uninstall some programmes, defrag the disk, install a RAM booster or even buy more RAM or a new CPU, they had no idea of what any of these things were. And I am not even talking about the old grandma that don't know what a PC is, but (young) business people who use computer everyday at work. Rather than even wonder at how to solve the problem, or make a quick internet search, they just throw it away and buy a new one (and it should be a brand like NEC, Sony or Fujitsu, because brand is status - but only when not combined with stupidity).

Guilty as charged. If you work 60+ hours a week, your time generally becomes extremely expensive. If it were between 20,000 yen or 3-4 (maybe a lot more) hours of me fumbling through a DIY book + the time it takes to buy the parts + the money it takes to buy the parts, I'd take the 20,000 yen any day, and go hang out in the park.

I know very few people who work 60h/week. 9 to 5 (or 6 or 7) jobs are still the most common in Japan. That is true for 90% of the people I know, and they are almost all salarymen and OL working in central Tokyo (Nihombashi, Otemachi or Marunouchi for most).

What about convenience store literature in other countries? I can't imagine a gas station with nothing but business magazines.

I went back home the 2 first weeks of January, I was surprised to see that any newsagent (even in train stations or at the airport) had such a variety of magazines (you know like the Japanese magazines you find at Maruzen or other bookshops), with all kinds of things like cars, history, travel, sports, cooking, gardenning, classical music, pop music, cinema, fashion, health, beauty, electronics, investment, real estate, archeology, celebrities, games, comics, porn, computers, TV programmes, news, economy, and always foreign magazines too. I have never seen a Japanese combini having even a third of this variety. But again, I am not sure about the US.

[Elizabeth]

Whoah. I'm sorry if in anyway I gave the impression that Japanese people are inferior in some kind of intellectual game...

:?

Not too long ago I was watching some TV with some Japanese friends and marveling how many times they said "kawaii" in the span of about 5 minutes. My own girlfriend has laughed at the fact of how often she uses that word. Then I logged onto Jref and read Maciamo's post. I thought it was funny. Where's the harm? I guess should be clear on all the details of why I found it funny.

:sorry:
Ashikarazu.... :bluush: I've been in similar predicaments talking with Japanese men embarrassed in front of a foreigner by how many times their wives friends revert to "kawaii" or "sugoii." I think the people as a whole value intellectual competence and personal dignity much more than Americans....it's just a much more complicated situation than Maciamo made out in his original post....I honestly didn't intend to lash out at anyone in particular. :sorry:

[mad pierrot]

No worries! I do in fact agree with you.

[Maciamo]

Most of these things are exactly the same in America, at least for most of the population. People are only interested in money, sex, clothes, cars, food. People don't care about politics, et cetera.

I don't think so. The US is so diverse, so big, and with such a variety of people from all backgrounds, ethnicities, beliefs and interests, that what you mention is certainly more based on your personal experience (I am sure that other Amereican members have a completely different story). There is already such a big difference in life style depending on the social class (not everyone is a millionaire or a Hollywood star), and whether people live in big coastal cities or the deep country. But Japan is easy as it is very homogenous (especially the education, mindset and values), and people even ask foreigners the exact same questions whether they come from Fukuoka, Wakayama, Tokyo or Akita. So the US is never a good benchmark for any cultural comparison.

Guys spend lots of money at strip clubs (every guy I know has at least been to one, some have dropped hundreds of dollars at a time). Americans are cheating, lying, shallow people.

Wow. In Europe, I'd say (I am a specialist on the matter) that stripclubs are mostly limited to Soho in London and Pigalle in Paris. I don't know what people find so fun there (except if they can't find a real girlfriend), and I also don't know anybody who has been to one (or admitted it). But while watching the esxellent American series "Friends" (all 10 seasons), I realised that going to stripclubs was much more normal in the States (and not just for Joey) than in Europe.

[kirei_na_me]

Ashikarazu.... :bluush: I've been in similar predicaments talking with Japanese men embarrassed in front of a foreigner by how many times their wives friends revert to "kawaii" or "sugoii." I think the people as a whole value intellectual competence and personal dignity much more than Americans....it's just a much more complicated situation than Maciamo made out in his original post....I honestly didn't intend to lash out at anyone in particular. :sorry:

I couldn't count the number of times my husband has walked away from a conversation, shaking his head and mumbling "stupid", after the Japanese people he was talking to had shrieked those expressions time and time again. Of course, he's been known to be just as superficial.

[kirei_na_me]

Americans are cheating, lying, shallow people. Or maybe it's just that I live in Los Angeles. :-)

Well, there are those kinds of people everywhere, but yeah, I would say living in LA has a lot to do with that opinion.

[Maciamo]

By I still can't understand your point of " They don't like technology" the technological Japan could not have come from nowhere , right ??

I remember Elizabeth telling me something in the same lines, but on a much less friendly tone. The point is that Japan is first and foremost a commercial and practical country (two of its strongest characteristic), and electronics sell well, especially in Japan where there is a high demand for everything that helps make your life more practical or convenient. So the technology (esp. electronics) market is born out of necessity, and out of a liking for practical things. Of course I don't deny that some Japanese who invented or developed such products may be very interested in and talented at technology, but they are just a minority.

And , is it true that Japanese kids don't study as much as Europeans at schools ?? I heard Japanese exams are one of the most difficult around the world. A difficult exam takes lots of information .... ??

Ooh yes. I will never repeat that enough. I have studied in 5 EU countries in total, from primary school to university, and I can tell you that there is a world of difference compared to what I have seen taught (and tested) in Japan.

Just for my information , how do you know Japanese people don't mind cheating on their partner , please , elaborate of how you came to this point ??

For men it's just common knowledge. The sex industry in Japan is one of the most developed in the world, and soaplands, massage parlours, voluntary teenage prositution (known as 'enjo kosai'), etc. are mostly frequented by (middle aged or old) married men.

As for women, well, just have a look at all the women working for the above men, and count how many have a boyfriend or are married.

But I have also read many studies and surveys about it (in addition to stories heard from Japanese I met). This thread says a lot (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=751)

[ragedaddy]

- when travelling abroad, they care little about the local culture except food

At least the Japanese have an interest in the foods of these places, not only does the typical American not care about the culture, you can see a bunch of them trying to find the nearest Mc Donalds. They also expect everyone they come in contact with to be able to speak English.


- they have casual sex with several partners without protection and don't worry about STD's

Is this not a worldwide phenomenon, turn on the TV in the US, and you can see "Hi, I'm pregnant at 13 yrs old," as a theme.

- when they do not talk about food, they talk about money or sex

If you are talking about Americans the ranking of subjects for conversation goes Sex, money, TV/ Movies, Alcohol/drugs A.K.A. partying....



- they tend of lack sexual morals and don't mind cheating "as long as their partner doesn't know"

There's many Westerners who really don't have any remorse for cheating even when their partner knows about it and confronts them.

[Maciamo]

At least the Japanese have an interest in the foods of these places, not only does the typical American not care about the culture, you can see a bunch of them trying to find the nearest Mc Donalds. They also expect everyone they come in contact with to be able to speak English.


Americans are rarely praised as the respectful, culturally motivated traveller.


Is this not a worldwide phenomenon, turn on the TV in the US, and you can see "Hi, I'm pregnant at 13 yrs old," as a theme.

Err, no sorry, but where I come from this is extremely rare, like one person out of 10,000. I'd call them extreme cases...


If you are talking about Americans the ranking of subjects for conversation goes Sex, money, TV/ Movies, Alcohol/drugs A.K.A. partying....

Money apart, does that count for Harvard graduates too ? Is it what comes up before Bible talk at the White House ? Is it the general idea most scientists would have of a "interesting conversation", would that motivate Wall Street business people to burn themselves out ? I mean, there is still a part of the American population that are not rednecks or LA surfers right ? And they have more to discuss than food, sex and money. But what do Japanese businessmen and politicians do after work ? They mostly go drinking in hostess bars to talk about sex, food or money. What do they do when they have free time ? Porn, soaplands, eat, talk about food or watch people on TV talk about food or money (or marriage and infidelity sometimes).

There's many Westerners who really don't have any remorse for cheating even when their partner knows about it and confronts them.

For many I think so, because remorse is part of the Judeo-Christian mentality, even for those who do not follow these religions. The Japanese just don't have in mind the conept of "evil" as something that you could be judged for by an omniscient power (that some call god). I don't believe in god, but I still feel a strong sense of morality. I wouldn't mind too much promiscuity if there weren't any STD's. But Japanese are too naive on this regard. This is one sense is immoral (as they could kill people with their naive recklessness).

[blade_bltz]

Ragedaddy - I'm sorry you feel that way about America, but in my experience (all my life in Boston), this country has the diversity and thus the potential to be anything you want it to be.

[ragedaddy]

Ragedaddy - I'm sorry you feel that way about America, but in my experience (all my life in Boston), this country has the diversity and thus the potential to be anything you want it to be.


Hmm, don't get it twisted; I think maybe I should elaborate more on this topic, because I have nothing but love for the US. The whole point of my arguments is that you could make these generalizations about many different places in the world, like it or not.

For the American conversation topics, I was getting more at when the boys are out with the boys; I mean of course there are intellectual conversations that take place. However, when you guys are at a bar full of hotties, I think the last thing on your mind is discussing how the economy is holding up. Don't get me wrong, man you can have an intellectual conversation anywhere in the world even without having a college degree. Man, we have enough intellectual conversations in school, when it's the weekend all that's on my mind is party.....

As for the teenage pregnancy here in the US, it has been quite an epidemic. However, it is gradually improving, so there is hope for the youth.

Blade, I have lived here for the majority of my life as well, and I think that diversity is a wonderful thing. There isn't another place I rather be living, so yeah I hope this clears all this stuff up.

[Sr Pasta]

I think the domination of different languages in different times has been quite connected to economic domination. The esperanto movement never could buy any guns.

[okaeri_man]

i found myself nodding to most of the things mentioned, but here's my 2 cents on a few of them:

- when travelling abroad, they care little about the local culture except foodperhaps not, but BEFORE they travel abroad they talk about the food (see point 1!).

- they ask the same routine dumb questions to foreigners ("can you use chopsticks; can you eat sushi, is there 4 seasons in your country, etc.")lol, this is very true. isn't it common knowledge that their are 4 seasons (in all places on earth)? or do they just think the seasons in japan are more clear-cut than any other country, and therefore foreigners haven't really "experienced" the changing of the seasons?

- manga, porn and fashion magazines account for over 90% of convenience stores' literature.nothing wrong with that! who wants "other" magazines when you rightly stated:

- there are virtually no magazines that test and rate products such as electronics, books, movies, games, etc. They only introduce these products without critical commentary (because the makers/sellers would sue them for being critical !)this did tick me off a bit. the japanese makers/sellers are criticised overseas (in say a gaming mag) all the time. i remember the doraemon games for N64 got given less than 2 out of 10 by australian reviewers!

- politicians are corrupted and inefficient beyond redemption, because they only care about themselves, and not the nation's welfare.umm, isn't this the same everywhere???

- many Japanese are convinced that their nation is "unique for being unique" (i.e. they think that all the world is a big melting-pot, but Japan is the only country that is 'pure' and homogenous, which makes it unique, and they are the only nation to enjoy such uniqueness.).yeah... not that theres anything wrong with this... but it gives many the idea that racism/discrimination is ok.

[blade_bltz]

Ragedaddy - thanks for clearing that up! I was too quick to overreact...

[Maciamo]

Actually there has been a well-documented downward trend in teenage pregnancy/abortion/births for at least the last decade, according to this source since1991. Figures may not be available for the current administration -- although no news has come in of a national reversal that I'm aware of.

http://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?id=4959&department=CWA&categoryid=family

What is that supposed to mean :

The 2002 birth rate of 42.9 births per 1000 for females aged 15-19 is 31 percent lower than the 1991 rate, and the rate of 72.7 percent for females aged 18-19 indicates a 23 percent decline,

72% of women between 18 and 19 get pregnant in the States ?? Even per mille seems so high (7 people out of 100). 19 is still teenage and I have never heard of anyone of that age getting pregnant among my European acquaintances. However in Japan I have (and many times).

[GaijinPunch]

I know I'm late on this, but...

I think we just have very different ideas of what the word "culture" means. What I meant is that they don't learn about the country's history, mentality, society, arts, religion, customs,

No, that's what I think of when I think of culture. Maybe my wife is the bad apple, but all I do is follow her through her Japanese tourist books which take you to places in whatever country, and talks about all the things you listed.


I know they don't because I checked all the popular guidebooks my wife bought when we were travelling (chikyu no arukikata, etc.),

Maybe your missus is just buying the wrong books?

To tell you frankly, I don't know. But I never talk sex with any other men. What's the point ?[/quote[

Didn't say there was one, nor was I defending it... just saying it's not unique to Japanese by a stretch.

[quote]Yes, but that is not the point. Many Japanese think that money is happiness.

Again, I'd say no. I don't think I've ever talked $$ with any of my Japanese friends. I only knew one that wanted to be a pop star to be "remembered" he said... not rich, and not famous.

but that they make up a much bigger percentage of the total broadcasting time than on European channels.

There's no way I'll defend Japanese TV. It sucks... I've just never lived anywhere where it's any better.


What I meant is that there are people who can't even use the control panel of Windows or don't know how to use MS Word.

There's millions of them... all over the world. And as an engineer who makes his bread & butter b/c of such people, I say kanpai!

I know very few people who work 60h/week. 9 to 5 (or 6 or 7) jobs are still the most common in Japan.

Are these the same people that want to be rich? Yeah, those are the "hours" but you wind up working more. Trust me... I worked in metropolitan Tokyo for the entire time I was in the country. There are people leaving office buildings well into the night. Office buildings don't even close the front doors usually until midnight. Here in the states? My building is a ghost town at 18:00.

One last thing:
For those under the illusion that Japanese is limited -- you need to study more. Of course it's limited if you're thinking in another language. There's tons of stuff you can't exactly translate from English to Japanese. There's only a million or so onomotopeai's (sp?) in Japanese that I dare so most people here would not fathom. If you come from an English speaking country you're probably more likely to have been exposed to different types of English, which cause for more flexibility. I'll give you that.... but that's about it.

[TwistedMac]

because remorse is part of the Judeo-Christian mentality, even for those who do not follow these religions.

very true. I'm an atheist, yet I look at some of the things said in the bible and I live by them as much as any religious person would.

"do unto others as you would have done unto yourself" or some such sentence is in there somewhere.. It makes perfect sense.
If everyone lives by it (and many do) we can keep the people hurt at a minimum.. and as long as it's at a minimum, tho odds of me being hurt are minimal.

I guess thinking about things like that makes us able to put ourselves in someone else's position and think "how would I feel if the tables were turned?". If we realize it wouldn't feel good, most of us feel regret. sympathy for the other person and the knowledge that I did that to him/her.

I'm not saying this is something the Japanese are incapable of or even bad at. I wouldn't know. I'm just trying to agree with the part of Maci's post I quoted.

[alexriversan]

- their favourite topic of conversation is food
you do not like eating?

- when travelling abroad, they care little about the local culture except food
if there ever was any local culture.

- when they do not talk about food, they talk about money or sex
or dying and death like some americans

- The proverbs "money doesn't buy happiness/love" or "don't judge a book by its cover" have no significance in Japan
ya buy "love": if your money is used up the love ends.

- clothes do make the man in Japan (which explain the success of brand clothes, black suits and even that of cosplay, bunny girls or the importance that Japanese women attach to their wedding dress)
and here clochards are entering the city council and getting jobs by 1:3 lottery.

- people indeed do not get treated the same way (be it in a shop, by government officials, by the police or whatever) depending on how well they dress and look.
and how polite they ask. even here staff does not give out things just for money

- they think an opuent and expensive wedding is necessary for appearances' sake (even if that is way above their means)
that's offensive. 39 reasons.

- some Japanese companies have a tiny head office in Tokyo (esp. Nihombashi) just for appearances' sake, as it is said to give them a higher status.
nice, very nice.

- they judge people from their appearance and tend to be easily prejudiced (e.g. toward foreigner-looking persons)
and you see the good in people with dirty clothing, sunglasses and big cars.

- they use gestures and speak strange Japanese to foreigners who address them in fluent Japanese (or before they have a chance to speak), as if they had convinced themselves that somebody who didn't look Japanese could not possibly understand their language
it is a way to express dislike for people who do not look japanese enough.

- however Japanese language is so deficient in vocabulary and acurate expressions that it has to borrow thousands of new words from other languages every year
like geek, ***** and nerd?

- the structure of Japanese language is so inflexible and clumsy (no relative sentences, few tenses, few nuances) that Japanese people end up speaking with isolated words (often adjectives, see below) rather than making full sentences.
which are well understood.

- they can't debate and dislike serious intellectual discussions (probably due to the language issues mentioned above)
do you easily debate lacking any reasons?

- there are very few intellectual programmes on TV (documentaries, debates, political analysis, social phenomenons, literary discussions...), due to a general lack of interest of the population
literary discussions on tv?

- people on TV usualy repeat the same few adjectives all the time (oishii, omoshiroi, hidoi, kirei...) , as if they were linguistically challenged.
news in europe are repeating one thing all day: dying and death.

- people in everyday life actually do speak like mentioned above
they speak all day of earthquakes and they may die of that probably?

- they ask the same routine dumb questions to foreigners ("can you use chopsticks; can you eat sushi, is there 4 seasons in your country, etc.")
rather can you afford sushi? we have sushi here in europe.

- they tend of lack sexual morals and don't mind cheating "as long as their partner doesn't know"
and we are holy churchgoers.

- they have casual sex with several partners without protection and don't worry about STD's
offensive. 38 reasons.

- they have a computer but don't know much how to use even quite simple functions, due to a lack of interest for technology
- they throw away a dysfunctuning electronic equipment (e.g. computer) or machine, rather than try to repair it
ya western secretary woman all have little repair shops at home.

- they call an plumber, electrician or carpenter to repair things in their house, because they are not interested in DIY (Japan is a service country par excellence, due to people's lack of knowledge or interest in a wide array of things)
if they have a house.

- they go to juku after school because they sleep or are too slow to learn at school (slowing down the teacher's rythm) and can't assimilate the necessary knowledge to pass the exams. They still end up learning much less than European children in foreign languages, history, geography and critical thinking.
more supid than the people here?

- manga, porn and fashion magazines account for over 90% of convenience stores' literature.
if you go to a manga shop it is obviously.

- shops staff repeat "irasshaimasse", then "domo arigato gozaimashita" like robots to anybody that enters or exit, even if the same person comes in and out three times in 5 minutes
a japanese would not do that on the same day

- they can't think by themselves, and believe the media, commercials or what people tell them much too easily
ya we all think think and think.

- they buy on impulse rather than after careful comparison and analysis
so do we

- there are virtually no magazines that test and rate products such as electronics, books, movies, games, etc. They only introduce these products without critical commentary (because the makers/sellers would sue them for being critical !)
would complain about them for being critical. ya i know our magazines are announcing everthing as BS to increase sales.

- they are a nation of followers that suffer from the "sheep syndrome" => if every jumps in the river, let's jump in the river too ! (i.e. lack of critical and independent thinking)
here we are individually arguing with police staff

- as a result, when something becomes fashionable, everybody must have it (e.g. Louis Vuitton handbags), even if that means it looses its uniqueness or originality.
people need nike for better living

- when a restaurant is "introduced" on TV, one can be sure that it will be full to the brim for the week to come, then people will forget about it as quickly as they had rushed on it (just to show how influenceable the Japanese are).
restaurant introduced on tv? have you hallucinated that?

- they think that most women are just good to serve tea, smile, be beautiful and make children (I mean, the cultural influence is so strong that many Japanese women also think so, not just men)
now they think.

- politicians are corrupted and inefficient beyond redemption, because they only care about themselves, and not the nation's welfare.
our politicans are anwering emails, you know, and giving jobs to jobless people immediately, including a sugar-free candy.

- people accept that politicians are as mentioned above, because they don't expect their own kind to act in a more virtous way
and recruitment agencies serving coffe, take a seat, very firendly, job in five minutes.

- men don't mind paying huge sums of money just to chat with bar hostesses, because they can't get a girlfriend (sad) or feel that it give them some form of status (shallow)
- about one out of three Japanese men frequents or has already been to one of these hostess bar.
as long as it is only chatting...

- not being married after the age of 35 or 40 can hurt some people's credibility or status, as people think that there is 'something wrong' with them
often it is indeed

- they care a lot about marriage, but little about the eventuality of divorce, so that prenuptial agreements are almost unheard of, because people 'don't like to think that bad things could happen' - while Westerners cannot not think about this eventuality and be prepared for it. Similarily, very few Japanese write their testament. Japanese seem to worry a lot, but rarely about things that matter most.
this should really change. people should have a coffin at home, if they need one, it is too late, obvioulsy. +3 bonus reasons

- many Japanese fathers do not think that they have a role in their children's education. This is so culturally ingrained that in case of divorce, the mother almost always get the exclusive custody of the child(ren), and the father often 'never' see them again - and often doesn't care much anyway.
offensive. 37 reasons.

- they find pleasure in asking foreigners what kind of Japanese food they can't eat - even if they can't eat it themself (never really understood the purpose of those questions)
do they have clumsy cheese?

- many Japanese are convinced that their nation is "unique for being unique" (i.e. they think that all the world is a big melting-pot, but Japan is the only country that is 'pure' and homogenous, which makes it unique, and they are the only nation to enjoy such uniqueness.).
people should have something japanese, and not a mind concept, japanese would be american hostages which were forced to learn kanji.

[Maciamo]

I see through your reply, alexriversan, that Irish people (if you are), are indeed a bit more similar to the Japanese (or Americans) than the European average, as nekosasori (who lives in Ireland) remarked before. Island (or isolated country) mentality ?

[alexriversan]

maciamo, talking topics family, wedding customs and polgygamic relationships are likely considered as offensive. a phrase book containing "a list of fourty words" in the index would not sell in japan.

i do not know why people try to point out one's origin and i do not see an importance in it.

do japanese laugh about europeans who always say "jesus christ" out of no particiular reason? or who label themselves as moro, geek and nerd?

i have difficulties imagine a japanese articulating "lord buddha" within a "discussion" without logical connection to the communication. but you wrote communication would often be imperative.

probably we should tell the japanese, the word "ghey" would not be gender specific, means it can be applied to a woman which bets large sums of money on horses, lives in a luxerious house and uses tarot cards to figure out which horse to bet.

notice this does not necessarily include physical intercourse within a relationship. probably the japanese know it theirselves because words are not attached to genders.

i wonder more and more :-) :-) :-)

[Maciamo]

maciamo, talking topics family, wedding customs and polgygamic relationships are likely considered as offensive.

Why ? Are you a puritan ?

do japanese laugh about europeans who always say "jesus christ" out of no particiular reason?

I don't know, but I do (laugh at them). Anyway, that's mostly an English expression (well there are other religion-related expression in other languages).

[alexriversan]

Why ? Are you a puritan ?

not at all. as far as i have understood, japanese society tolerates many things (like unusual vending machines)- as long as they do not try to enter university, to teach small children and giving out lollies to same. it works because it is not talked about more than necessary.

i worked on my unecessary hate feelings for a while.

[cicatriz esp]

Well, there are those kinds of people everywhere, but yeah, I would say living in LA has a lot to do with that opinion.

I would just throw in my two cents here that the majority of the population of LA are not, in fact, American citizens.

[Shas]

- when travelling abroad, they care little about the local culture except food

i disagree in part :D in germany japanese people are famous for having little digital cameras and stuff and taking tons of pictures of everything :) instead of looking


well

[Leroy_Brown]

Yet another stereotype/generalization.

Maciamo,

Do you ever have anything remotely good to say about Japan or the Japanese?

[Shas]

yeah, you must add that in Europe stereotypes are a big thing because you have so many unique countries bordering each other :D

[King of Tokyo]

Even if I wanted to agree on some of your points, I can't. Why? Because every topic you make is some negative generelization about Japan and more specifically Japanese people. I don't understand why you'd want to be in a place that you complain so much about. It doesn't make sense.

[Shas]

Even if I wanted to agree on some of your points, I can't. Why? Because every topic you make is some negative generelization about Japan and more specifically Japanese people. I don't understand why you'd want to be in a place that you complain so much about. It doesn't make sense.


let me show you.

Im living with Americans right now. In the South. They (Americans) say 'bout Americans that they are:
- stupid
- fat
- hard drinking
- hard cussing
- redneck
- hardcore christians
- etc blahbla bush blah

but they don't say "All Americans are allways this way and that's all their choice and they don't want to change it."


see i think what he wants to say is that, well, they might be superficial but that doesn't shape them as a nationality. see that's a trait or so if one grows up with it hes unlikely to not continue it.

i would make an example if i knew any stereotype or so about canada but i seriously don't know anything about canada because nobody ever talks about you (your next to the big US they are allways the donkey) - really no offense ment.

I can understand your point but I allso agree with the thread starter


well hope you got my point right and i didn't offend you in any way O.o

[Leroy_Brown]

[QUOTE=Shas]
i would make an example if i knew any stereotype or so about canada but i seriously don't know anything about canada because nobody ever talks about you (your next to the big US they are allways the donkey) - really no offense ment.
[QUOTE]

Canadians are colder, hockey-loving Americans without guns who have health care, half of whom think they're still French.

:D

[cicatriz esp]

Canadians own more guns per capita than Americans do.

[Maciamo]

Yet another stereotype/generalization.

Maciamo,

Do you ever have anything remotely good to say about Japan or the Japanese?

Haven't you read any of the articles in the Culture (http://www.jref.com/culture/), Glossary (http://www.jref.com/glossary/) or Practical (http://www.jref.com/practical/) (including Travel Guide) sections of this site to say such a thing ? As I wrote almost everything in these sections, and there isn't anything negative to be found in over 200 pages, I think your vision of not having "anything remotely good to say about Japan" is very much restricted to what you want to see. How many of my almost 4000 forum posts did you read ?

[Maciamo]

Even if I wanted to agree on some of your points, I can't. Why? Because every topic you make is some negative generelization about Japan and more specifically Japanese people. I don't understand why you'd want to be in a place that you complain so much about. It doesn't make sense.

See my reply to Leroy above (funny that my reply to you both should be the same, as Leroy means "the king" in French and "King of Tokyo" lives in Canada, no far from the French speaking part :-) ). I think you should read this thread : Can you separate reason and emotions in your mind ? (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=188068)

Why would I be criticising the economical and political system if it was not to change it and improve ? (because continuing like this, Japan is doomed in the long run). Otherwise, when talking about most of the Japanese culture (history, Shinto, Buddhism, traditions, festivals, kimono, food, fireworks, sightseeing, etc.) I not only have positive views, but did more than 99.9% of any other foreigners interseted in Japan to promote this culture via the practical, culture and glossary sections of this website.

Note that my rant about Japanese people only concerns 2 things : education and discrimination. In my views, the discriminatory practices come from ignorance or misinformation fed to the population via the education system and media. If I may put it this way, the two "evils" that spoil the spiriut of the Japanese people are the education sytem and the media, both of which are closely monitored by the government. So the source of all evils, be them economical, social or educational is always ultimately the Japanese government.

As they (the government) don't seem to realise it, and the people don't not do much to change things (because they are just too passive and compliant due to the education system), someone needs to take care of letting the world know the truth about Japan, and hopefully, when enough people around the world will have become aware of the situation, there might be some pressure from outside to change things, as in Japan history has shown that things just do not change (even for centuries on end) if there isn't some kind of external pressure (be in Perry for the Meiji Restoration (http://www.jref.com/glossary/meiji_restoration.shtml), or MacArthur after WWII).

Why do I spend some much time and energy to improve the situation in a country that is not mine and which I could leave anytime I want ? Reading your answer (or Leroy's), somebody like you will probably never understand. It's called passion and (cynical) idealism. Living in Japan with my Japanese partner, these two characteritics of my personality force me to react to everyday situations, reflect about the causes of the problems I come across, analyse how the society in which I live works, and find solutions to improve ir. I have lived in several European countries, and did the same as for Japan.

As a matter of fact, before coming to Japan I wrote hundreds of pages about things that had to be changed about European politics, economy or educational system. I submitted the relevant dosuments to a few leading politicians or university professors. But there was IMHO much less to complain about in Europe than in Japan, as most of the issues were already common knowlege, and the solutions were already being tackled by the various governments and the EU. Looking at how much progress has been achieved in the EU in the last 10 or 20 years, I can only applaud. But looking at the same period of time in Japan, all I see is that the situation has mostly deteriorated, except for a few minor, but notable positive changes, such as the increasingly better position of women in society or a few measures to revive the economy.

Anyway, the keyword to understand my posts is the Latin/French/Italian saying "Who loves well chastises well".

[Vikthor]

Wow!
There are so many things in common between the Japanese and the Argentinians (sadly, it´s nothing to be proud of)!

[FireyRei]

Interesting observations, although stereotypical & does not reflect on every person.

[Ma Cherie]

Interesting observations, although stereotypical & does not reflect on every person.

Perhaps (if you are Japanese) you could try to shed some light on issues regarding attitudues the Japanese have towards foreigners and other many other things as well.

That is all.

[cyber ape]

"Is this not a worldwide phenomenon, turn on the TV in the US, and you can see "Hi, I'm pregnant at 13 yrs old," as a theme."

The difference is, atleast in Tokyo, the issue of making unprotected sex under the age 15 ILLEGAL came up. In America, we don't really care, because it gives us something to feel good about ourselves for, and because if you have a child, you'd better take care of it, nevermind the fact it could've been rape, eh, etc..

Also, is we banned underage sex, the Christians would win, and that wouldn't be right.

[alexriversan]

Also, is we banned underage sex, the Christians would win, and that wouldn't be right.

the christians are very strict: no sex at all if man/woman are not married.

the reaction was lots of young people broke this rule, you know what happend in the sixties: rock'n'roll, then the hippie era/the disco thing.

indirect the christs are evil: the produce rule-breakers.

new rules must be designed to be moderate, more education what happens if young girls get pregnant, the diseases and so on.

----------

to make drugs criminal- this does not solve the problem.
drug intake is an active action of disconnection from the family/relationships.
right educated people refuse illegal substances.
not because they are illegal.
because they are in good relationships with their family/partners, and know the effects of these substances.

not to say that these things may occur together: drugs, prostitution and underage pregnacy.

-----------

it may sound conservative, i know. extensive information about the results of underage sex (pregnancy, problems with parents, poverty, drugs and so on) might be labelled as propaganda.

people who know these results do not need excessive regulations by law.

my personal opinion is that the family must agree to such relationships, and must be able to support them financially. otherwise, it would be social illegal for these people to get intim.

[dadako]

Maciamo: based on the amount of time you've been in Japan, these statements make you sound very naive.

we all notice these things in the first few months, care to dig a bit deeper and you'll actually find that Japanese people are vastly more interesting that you think. Maybe you just hang out with real idiots and get a bum deal at every turn, but this is not a good image for yourself considering that you moderate on this forum and should be swimming in worldly knowledge and understanding/acceptance of different cultures. Most importantly setting an example for those who visit here after knowledge.

I agree that Japanese are slightly more slow on the uptake when it comes to expressing their knowledge and thoughts, however this is Japan, and in Japan that's the way it's done.

[Maciamo]

Maciamo: based on the amount of time you've been in Japan, these statements make you sound very naive.

we all notice these things in the first few months, care to dig a bit deeper and you'll actually find that Japanese people are vastly more interesting that you think. Maybe you just hang out with real idiots and get a bum deal at every turn, but this is not a good image for yourself considering that you moderate on this forum and should be swimming in worldly knowledge and understanding/acceptance of different cultures.

Let me disagree. The longer I stay in Japan, the more people I meet, the deeper I dig into their thoughts, and the more these traits become clear and easy to generalised. It is no wonder I didn't write such posts in my first 2 years in Japan. I wanted to be sure, double-check and 'keep digging deeper' and meet even more people, analyse more carefully why they react the way they do, what they learned at school, see if they are just fakng ignorance and disinterest or if they really don't know and lack interest... If it is true that many foreigners notice these things in the first few months, few care to search for the causes of this behaviour or analyse in detail how the people they meet think.

But I never said that all Japanese were like that, or I would have left the country long ago. I am just saying that these traits are dominant, and that people who do not fit at least half of these descriptions are a minority (let me remind you that 45% is a minority, if another group amounts to 46 to 55%).

There is no reason to get annoyed by my analysis. I can find negative things to say (often worse than that) about just any society around the world. For example, the dominant negative traits of the French (especially Parisians) is that they are arrogant, overcritcial, care little about each other's feelings, prefer to disagree rather than to agree (basically all the opposite of the Japanese, from this point of view). The dominant negative traits of the Southern USA is blind religiousness, lack of interest in the world, etc. But as we have said before, this forum is about Japan. If you want to know about the positive and negative aspects of other countries, then you'll surely find them on some other websites.

Maybe one of the differences between you and me, is that I do not contend myself with analysing the people I like, but all kind of people a country's society is made of, including the homeless, the criminals, the elderly, the children, the rich, the poor, the well-educated, the less educated, those open to foreigners, the racists, the nationalists, the bright, the simple-minded, the recluse and the extrovert... I am sure that most Westerners living in Japan do not take much care about this whole society, but just the people that come to them, mostly the young, better-educated than average and open to the world. It is a mistake to limit your judgement to these people if you want to consider the society as a whole. Considering that you live in Shibuya, I understand that you have a quite different view of Japan that I do. Shibuya has been called a male gaijin paradise. It has everything a young Western designer like you would wish for. Go and live in the countryside with some bigoted 70 year-old, and you'll have a very different opinion.

[Doc]

I would like to prove once and for all that Japan indeed is a unique society, as about any Japanese would claim. Well, at least it is unique to Western eyes, as Japan may share numerous similarities with its Asian neighours. Here is a summary of my observations of the Japanese people and mindset established after 3,5 years of 'research'.

To assess this uniqueness of the Japanese culture, I did not include material differences (different architecture, food, etc.) which can easily be copied or exported, but only psychological ones (what make the people different). In fact, I have only concentrated on one particular aspect of the Japanese midset : its shallowness (so this study is totally biased from the start, as it does not include anything else). I could very well do one to prove how much more polite, disciplined, or respectful the Japanese are. But it is not the object of this analysis.

The purpose is not to animadvert, excoriate or disparage (sorry, couldn't resist lol), but on the contrary emphasize the idiosyncracies of the Japanese mindset as opposed to the Western median.

The observations hereafter only represent a trend that characterize a majority (i.e. at least 50%) of the Japanese population (sometimes only for one gender group). It may apply to an overwhelming majority of the population (nearly 100%), or only to just about half of it. But still, please take it with a grain of salt and a good sense of humour. Have fun !

- their favourite topic of conversation is food
- when travelling abroad, they care little about the local culture except food
- when they do not talk about food, they talk about money or sex
- The proverbs "money doesn't buy happiness/love" or "don't judge a book by its cover" have no significance in Japan
- clothes do make the man in Japan (which explain the success of brand clothes, black suits and even that of cosplay, bunny girls or the importance that Japanese women attach to their wedding dress)
- people indeed do not get treated the same way (be it in a shop, by government officials, by the police or whatever) depending on how well they dress and look.
- they think an opuent and expensive wedding is necessary for appearances' sake (even if that is way above their means)
- some Japanese companies have a tiny head office in Tokyo (esp. Nihombashi) just for appearances' sake, as it is said to give them a higher status.
- they judge people from their appearance and tend to be easily prejudiced (e.g. toward foreigner-looking persons)
- they use gestures and speak strange Japanese to foreigners who address them in fluent Japanese (or before they have a chance to speak), as if they had convinced themselves that somebody who didn't look Japanese could not possibly understand their language
- however Japanese language is so deficient in vocabulary and acurate expressions that it has to borrow thousands of new words from other languages every year
- the structure of Japanese language is so inflexible and clumsy (no relative sentences, few tenses, few nuances) that Japanese people end up speaking with isolated words (often adjectives, see below) rather than making full sentences.
- they can't debate and dislike serious intellectual discussions (probably due to the language issues mentioned above)
- there are very few intellectual programmes on TV (documentaries, debates, political analysis, social phenomenons, literary discussions...), due to a general lack of interest of the population
- people on TV usualy repeat the same few adjectives all the time (oishii, omoshiroi, hidoi, kirei...) , as if they were linguistically challenged.
- people in everyday life actually do speak like mentioned above
- they ask the same routine dumb questions to foreigners ("can you use chopsticks; can you eat sushi, is there 4 seasons in your country, etc.")
- they tend of lack sexual morals and don't mind cheating "as long as their partner doesn't know"
- they have casual sex with several partners without protection and don't worry about STD's
- they have a computer but don't know much how to use even quite simple functions, due to a lack of interest for technology
- they throw away a dysfunctuning electronic equipment (e.g. computer) or machine, rather than try to repair it
- they call an plumber, electrician or carpenter to repair things in their house, because they are not interested in DIY (Japan is a service country par excellence, due to people's lack of knowledge or interest in a wide array of things)
- they go to juku after school because they sleep or are too slow to learn at school (slowing down the teacher's rythm) and can't assimilate the necessary knowledge to pass the exams. They still end up learning much less than European children in foreign languages, history, geography and critical thinking.
- manga, porn and fashion magazines account for over 90% of convenience stores' literature.
- shops staff repeat "irasshaimasse", then "domo arigato gozaimashita" like robots to anybody that enters or exit, even if the same person comes in and out three times in 5 minutes
- they can't think by themselves, and believe the media, commercials or what people tell them much too easily
- they buy on impulse rather than after careful comparison and analysis
- there are virtually no magazines that test and rate products such as electronics, books, movies, games, etc. They only introduce these products without critical commentary (because the makers/sellers would sue them for being critical !)
- they are a nation of followers that suffer from the "sheep syndrome" => if every jumps in the river, let's jump in the river too ! (i.e. lack of critical and independent thinking)
- as a result, when something becomes fashionable, everybody must have it (e.g. Louis Vuitton handbags), even if that means it looses its uniqueness or originality.
- when a restaurant is "introduced" on TV, one can be sure that it will be full to the brim for the week to come, then people will forget about it as quickly as they had rushed on it (just to show how influenceable the Japanese are).
- they think that most women are just good to serve tea, smile, be beautiful and make children (I mean, the cultural influence is so strong that many Japanese women also think so, not just men)
- politicians are corrupted and inefficient beyond redemption, because they only care about themselves, and not the nation's welfare.
- people accept that politicians are as mentioned above, because they don't expect their own kind to act in a more virtous way
- men don't mind paying huge sums of money just to chat with bar hostesses, because they can't get a girlfriend (sad) or feel that it give them some form of status (shallow)
- about one out of three Japanese men frequents or has already been to one of these hostess bar.
- not being married after the age of 35 or 40 can hurt some people's credibility or status, as people think that there is 'something wrong' with them
- they care a lot about marriage, but little about the eventuality of divorce, so that prenuptial agreements are almost unheard of, because people 'don't like to think that bad things could happen' - while Westerners cannot not think about this eventuality and be prepared for it. Similarily, very few Japanese write their testament. Japanese seem to worry a lot, but rarely about things that matter most.
- many Japanese fathers do not think that they have a role in their children's education. This is so culturally ingrained that in case of divorce, the mother almost always get the exclusive custody of the child(ren), and the father often 'never' see them again - and often doesn't care much anyway.
- they find pleasure in asking foreigners what kind of Japanese food they can't eat - even if they can't eat it themself (never really understood the purpose of those questions)
- many Japanese are convinced that their nation is "unique for being unique" (i.e. they think that all the world is a big melting-pot, but Japan is the only country that is 'pure' and homogenous, which makes it unique, and they are the only nation to enjoy such uniqueness.).


And then the universe imploded.

Doc:ramen::happy:

[Maciamo]

And then the universe imploded.


So that is what happened. I was also wondering. :D

[Doc]

What can I say? The universe itself can only take so much superfical crap from humanity before it too decides to go bai-bai. Hell could probably call it a mercy killing too.

Doc:ramen::happy:

[white.rabbit]

:p
Might I point out that the majority of, if not all, economically secure and westernized countries share many of the traits listed...
Also, you must also factor in the history and culture of Japan, and many other asian countries. There is a rather great difference between European countries and Asian countries as far as culture goes...
However, many of those points are quite valid
:hihi:

[Maciamo]

Might I point out that the majority of, if not all, economically secure and westernized countries share many of the traits listed...

Have you ever set foot outside the US ?

Also, you must also factor in the history and culture of Japan, and many other asian countries. There is a rather great difference between European countries and Asian countries as far as culture goes...

Yes, that's a fact!

[Reiku]

- manga, porn and fashion magazines account for over 90% of convenience stores' literature.

...that's pretty much true here in the states too. :D

[tai2]

Maciamo, I enjoyed reading your links and the entire forum regarding your original post. I would have to say I agree with most of what you wrote. I do come from some experience, having lived three times in Japan, first from '89 - '90, then most recent being from 09/02 to 09/03 in a small town called ashikaga (inaka). Also, have studied Japanese for quite a few years, and currently live with a beautiful Japanese woman here in the US.

Anyway, my question would be that as you obviously feel very passionately about the differences (or to subphrase your postings .. the deficiencies of Japan vs. the modernized world) ... why wouldn't you try to do something about it? Posting in this forum is obviously a way to educate 'gaijin' about your opinions or insight of Japan, but from your postings you seem to really want to make a difference (i.e. comparing yourself to Perry and McAurther).

Perhaps an NPO which could collectively add a collaborative effort among industrialized nations to integrate Japan into your mode of thought? ... just rambling.. but you might find this link interesting ... http://www.usajapan.org/PDF/051004_njipolitics_summary.pdf

I found that through a simple google search, I'm sure there are plenty out there...

I did find your postings informative, and agreed with most of it.

P.S. If you believe in immorality, how could you not believe in God? ... Just a thought

[Faustianideals]

I liked the post very much, good job Maciamo!

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, I enjoyed reading your links and the entire forum regarding your original post. I would have to say I agree with most of what you wrote.

Thanks. Glad to see that people who have experienced Japan like me also agree with my observations. :-)


Perhaps an NPO which could collectively add a collaborative effort among industrialized nations to integrate Japan into your mode of thought? ... just rambling.. but you might find this link interesting ... http://www.usajapan.org/PDF/051004_njipolitics_summary.pdf

Thanks for the link and advice.


P.S. If you believe in immorality, how could you not believe in God? ... Just a thought

Do I believe in immortality ?

[aha yes]

Maciamo,
Some of the OP is kind of funny, and I take it with the grain of salt you prescribed. Here's my reaction:

A whooole lot of the list could be said about many other countries so it really proves nothing about the uniqueness of Japan. I mean food? sex? May as well call all humanity shallow.

Many other things on the list are only 'shallow' when you look at them with Western blinders on. In your years of research, I'd be surprised if you didn't pick up on the very subtle yet ubiquitous Japanese ideal of impermanence. You're trying to find meaning and depth precisely where the Japanese are not aesthetically (or even spiritually) inclined to put it. Enjoying each meal, cup of tea or passing fashion as a once-in-a-lifetime experience can be profound. Shallowness is not letting go of passing things.

[Maciamo]

A whooole lot of the list could be said about many other countries so it really proves nothing about the uniqueness of Japan. I mean food? sex? May as well call all humanity shallow.

Am I guessing that by this reaction you are American ?

In your years of research, I'd be surprised if you didn't pick up on the very subtle yet ubiquitous Japanese ideal of impermanence.

In what way is that unique or special. I certainly do feel the impermanence more than many Japanese. In fact, we could argue that the Japanese dislike change (why I love it and need it). The concept of impermanence in Japan comes from Buddhism/Hinduism, so we could say that it is shared by at leats half of the people in the world (just China and India make up 2.4 billion people).

Enjoying each meal, cup of tea or passing fashion as a once-in-a-lifetime experience can be profound. Shallowness is not letting go of passing things.

For me, enjoying one's senses is never profound. That is what we share in common with many animals, especially mammals. For me, profoundity relates to using the frontal cortex of one's brain.

I admit that I may judge too much based on my way of thinking and socio-economic background rather than for all Westerners. There are quite a lot of shallow people in the West too. The proportion is usuall higher among the lower classes and some middle class (money does not determine class for me, as I explained in this article about the [url=http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15637]social classes[url]). I have mostly compared upper-middle class people in Western Europe to upper-middle class and middle-class people in Japan (didn't take Americans into account as I haven't lived in the States). If you compare lower classes, there is probably not so much difference. So I guess you agree or disagree with me more based on your own background and the country where you are from.

I think the Japanese are quite similar to other East Asians regarding their obsession with sensual pleasures (food, massages, baths, etc.). Or maybe it is because I get my impression from proportionally more Japanese women than men, and in a society where gender role is so important, women are not encouraged to be deep and intellectual, but cute, naive and superficial (well, there are a few notable exceptions, but there are just that, exceptions). What do you think ?

[aha yes]

Am I guessing that by this reaction you are American ?
I am, but I don't see how that's relevant. Food, sex and looks are important in any culture..


In what way is that unique or special. I certainly do feel the impermanence more than many Japanese. In fact, we could argue that the Japanese dislike change (why I love it and need it). The concept of impermanence in Japan comes from Buddhism/Hinduism, so we could say that it is shared by at leats half of the people in the world (just China and India make up 2.4 billion people).
Agreed, impermanence is not unique to Japan. That wasn't a claim.


For me, enjoying one's senses is never profound. That is what we share in common with many animals, especially mammals. For me, profoundity relates to using the frontal cortex of one's brain.
How austere. Thing is, no matter how much you use the ol' frontal cortex, no matter what country or socio-economic class you're from, you still have to eat and have sex. We are after all animals. That the Japanese do not deny this but make good sport of it is a different brand of profundity than you're allowing here.

My point is that this '40 reasons' thing says much more about your own cultural values on superficiality than about anything inherent to Japan.

[Maciamo]

I am, but I don't see how that's relevant.

Well, the fact that I could guess it means something. You are not the first person on this forum to react like this (and almost all others before you were American).

Food, sex and looks are important in any culture..
...
Thing is, no matter how much you use the ol' frontal cortex, no matter what country or socio-economic class you're from, you still have to eat and have sex. We are after all animals.

If you took care to make the difference between what's important, essential to survive, or fun, and what is "profound", you would understand better my point of view. I love good food, but that doesn't make me feel particularly profound to eat or discuss about food.

Obviously eating and having sex are fundamental aspects of being a human being. They are very basic needs, can be very enjoyable, but that does not mean these things are "intellectual" or "profound". There is more to being a human than eating and having sex. The very meaning of superficial is to care too much about those basic things, and not enough about using one's brains to understand complex issues, be creative or acquire new knowledge.

FYI, I refer to this defintion of superficial :

Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=superficial) : "concerned only with the obvious or apparent"

I used it as a synonym of "shallow", defined like this (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/shallow?view=uk) : " not showing, requiring, or capable of serious thought".

I believe that my list of observations match well these definitions, and that food, sex, etc. are always shallow, no matter how enjoyable they may be. People need shallow stuff too, but when it becomes the dominant trait of character, those people become worringly close to returning to their animal condition (I am not talking about the Japanese in particular here, but anybody in this world).

[aha yes]

Well, the fact that I could guess it means something. You are not the first person on this forum to react like this (and almost all others before you were American).
So...what am I guilty of?


If you took care to make the difference between what's important, essential to survive, or fun, and what is "profound", you would understand better my point of view. I love good food, but that doesn't make me feel particularly profound to eat or discuss about food.
You may love good food but you obviously don't really loooove food. It's no one's loss but your own if you treat your eating experience as a means of survival only and not something profound.


Obviously eating and having sex are fundamental aspects of being a human being. They are very basic needs, can be very enjoyable, but that does not mean these things are "intellectual" or "profound". There is more to being a human than eating and having sex. The very meaning of superficial is to care too much about those basic things, and not enough about using one's brains to understand complex issues, be creative or acquire new knowledge.
Intellectual does not necessarily equal profound. Lots of cultures back to the primitives have central rituals and myth about food and sex precisely because they are essential to our survival. Nothing intellectual about that. But it's profound, how we consume life to live. How about the fertility cults of farming cultures (thanking God for veggies)? Or the elaborate ceremonies used by Native American groups to renew the soul of an animal killed for food (thanking God for meat and hoping it doesn't run out)? Or how about the Bible story where humans were cut off from God because they ATE an apple? Or was that about SEX? Are these examples not complex or creative enough? Too animal-like for modern civilized intellectual man? Exactly how complex is it to be human? What more is there?


FYI, I refer to this defintion of superficial :

Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=superficial) : "concerned only with the obvious or apparent"

I used it as a synonym of "shallow", defined like this (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/shallow?view=uk) : " not showing, requiring, or capable of serious thought".

I believe that my list of observations match well these definitions...
Why not? As long as we're evaluating the Japanese worldview by one-line definitions in foreign language dictionaries published in another culture.

, and that food, sex, etc. are always shallow, no matter how enjoyable they may be. People need shallow stuff too, but when it becomes the dominant trait of character, those people become worringly close to returning to their animal condition (I am not talking about the Japanese in particular here, but anybody in this world).
You ride your intellect to profundity. I ride enjoyment. You are no more human than I.

[Tim0000]

Very typical gaijin view of Japan. Its unfortunate that most people only ever see this perspective of Japan, perhaps because the language and social barriers are still too great after all these years. More unfortunate that most people in this thread seem to agree with the original post. Apparently most people never get beyond talking about completely meaningless talk with a Japanese person, which is why they are perceived as being shallow. I can tell you that the boring and shallow conversations that you are probably having with a Japanese person, despite the apparent enthusiasm expressed by them, is totally reciprocal and they are totally bored too. With so many foreigners in Japan you would think there has been some bridge across the cultures, but apparently not yet.

In some way, the isolation that this creates for Japanese can be constructive as it means they can go and do the weird and wonderful things that they do, without judgement. Once there is understanding between western and japanese cultures, then anything that anyone does has to be "good" under western values as well. That day will probably be the end of true uniqueness of Japan, which would also be a pity.

So theres good and bad in this, probably more good than bad actually.

[Maciamo]

Very typical gaijin view of Japan.

Really ? That's strange I have rarely heard such views on forums in English about Japan. In fact I found that many "Japan-lovers" didn't want to see or hear anything like that at all. Btw, are you a Japanese or a non-Japanese ?

I can tell you that the boring and shallow conversations that you are probably having with a Japanese person, despite the apparent enthusiasm expressed by them, is totally reciprocal and they are totally bored too.

My wife says that she has never learnt so much about all kind of things as since she met me - because she had never met any Japanese as interesting or knowlegeable as me (her words, not mine). I have had many individual students who continued their weekly lesson with me for 1, 2 or in some cases even 3 years because they learnt more than just English. They were free to change teacher or stop the lessons anytime they wanted. So I doubt I that I was a total bore.

What I criticise is Japanese society in general, not only the individuals I have met. Look a the media - boring and superficial. Compared to the median of society I am a bit more on the intellectual side, and I can tell you that it is hard to find food for the mind on Japanese TV. Where are all the debates about society and politics, where are the documentaries about history, science and nature, where are the geo-political analysis of worldwide issues (e.g. the war in Iraq, the situation in Darfur, the conflict in Kashmir) ? No, Japanese TV is full of stupid games and variety shows, with series and movies, but nothing to make you think.

When I am in a cafe or restaurant in Japan and I eavesdrop on conversations around me, it is very often the same things that are always discussed : food, marriage, fashion, celebrities... Very few people talk about more serious stuff. It is completely different here in Belgium.

As you can see it is not a language issue in my case, but an actual cultural difference. Japanese culture encourages superficial talks. On the contrary French-speaking culture encourage serious discussions.

[Mrjones]

<quote> Its unfortunate that most people only ever see this perspective of Japan, perhaps because the language and social barriers are still too great after all these years. </quote>

Japan is supposed to be at least one of the major economies in the world we live on. Somehow I would think these major economies should be little bit more openminded, at least for their own people. Still they have their own mafia openly running their yakuza businesses. How logical is such thing to exsist in major economies ? :bluush:

[nurizeko]

Maciamo, the problem is you hold yourself in high regard (not necisarrily a character flaw), you pride yourself on YOUR view of the world, YOUR view of everything, every specific opinion and every specific quality.

The problem starts when you percieve a country to be somehow below your high standards.

Why should Japan comply with your specific Eurocentric view of the universe?, why must Japan face judgement from a very European perspective?, why do you need to constantly point out how great Belgium is and japan isnt?.

Your ONE person with one UNIQUE view.

Japan is a seperate country seperated by geography and the haze of history from the rest of the world for a long time.

The Japanese have had many many hundreds of years to refine their world view and decide what is important and what isnt.

Everyone here knows fine japan has problems, it has short-commings, the problem starts is that 1) Your making it out as if Belgium and Europe are the height of civilization, you might not mean it, but thats how it is, yeah, so what if the Japanese think differently of food and sex, so what if they could care less about something you specifically hold as sacred? they arent imposing their will on you, so its not your concern, and diversity is simply a fact of human life.

The Japanese arent shallow, and I'm sorry your experiences werent very satisfying, but, your experiences of japan arent the only one and they cant and never will override the mass of experiences of everyone else who has experienced life in Japan.

It boils down to one simple thing, this one simple thing I mentioned a long time ago on this forum and this is it.

You either love or hate Japan.

You hated it, nearly everyone else managed to find part of it they loved.

You had bad experiences and Japan just didnt fit you. You admit yourself, Your very specific and stone set on what you like and dont, what you prioratise in life and what you disregard.

Japan simply pushed the limits of what YOU find acceptable, fine, your an individual, free to your own specifics.

I would say, its not that you cant comprimise in certain areas like many of us, its just that while some of us can comprimise certain things like our sensitivities to certain "slights", you couldnt.

While you found many examples of descrimination or ignorance nearly unbearable, Many others could look past it, so it didnt ruin their visit/life there, for others, they simply never suffered any really note-worthy examples of descrimination or ignorance.

In my case if a lady in the same apartment building as me wants to look wide-eyed and terrified of me then go ahead, look like an idiot, not my problem. :)

If my girlfriends Grandpa wants to be a racist dinosaur good for him, I pity him, I dont take any real offense, because I know he's just poor pitiful old man with pre-set idea's that will deny him many positive worthwhile experiences and friendships in life. My only gripe with him was he made my girlfriend cry.


Japan isnt Belgium, it isnt Europe.

Applying strict European standards to a country that only really opened up to it in any real way a few hundred years ago is hardly fair.

Changing the mind of an individual is easy, changing an entire heavily in-looking culture within a historically short period of time is more difficult.

Give Japan time, and even then, dont expect Europe where there isnt any.

[Maciamo]

Japan is a seperate country seperated by geography and the haze of history from the rest of the world for a long time.
So are each European country.
It boils down to one simple thing, this one simple thing I mentioned a long time ago on this forum and this is it.
You either love or hate Japan.
You hated it, nearly everyone else managed to find part of it they loved.
False. I don't see things in black or white. I try to weigh the good and the bad in each culture and country. So country just happen to have more good or less bad than others. There are many things that I like about Japan (see this thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27616)).

I came to Japan with a very postive approach. In fact it was so positive that I embraced Japan completely, learn the language, experience all I could, read a lot about it, met lots of peolpe, and try to be interested in things that I wasn't really interested in before (manga, kabuki, Japanese literature, Shintoism...). The more I learnt and discovered about Japan, the more people I met, the more fluent I became in Japanese, and the more I came to dislike Japan because I felt that my good expectations were going to be fulfilled. The deeper I scratched over the surface and the more dirt I found, despite my attempts to find more positive things.
Japan simply pushed the limits of what YOU find acceptable, fine, your an individual, free to your own specifics.
That's true, but my values are deeply influenced by European cultural values. So if I feel the way I do about Japan, chances are high that other Europeans/Westerners will be the same way too, if they experience the same things as me and judge Japanese culture by the same standards.

While you found many examples of descrimination or ignorance nearly unbearable, Many others could look past it, so it didnt ruin their visit/life there, for others, they simply never suffered any really note-worthy examples of descrimination or ignorance.
This tells me more about you than about Japanese people...
Applying strict European standards to a country that only really opened up to it in any real way a few hundred years ago is hardly fair.
With that kind of argument I could say that Belgium wasn't a country until 175 years ago. It is hardly fair to compare a 175-year old country with the oldest monarchy in the world !

[Goldiegirl]

but that area has been on the European continent and has been settled for thousands of years, so just saying that politically Belgium is an infant country is silly. That's making the "numbers" work for you.

[ArmandV]

The longer I stay in Japan, the more people I meet, the deeper I dig into their thoughts, and the more these traits become clear and easy to generalised.

Do you have video of this? It would be most interesting to see a Belgian in Japan performing Vulcan mind-meldings on the locals. ;-)

Live long and prosper!

[Elizabeth]

That's true, but my values are deeply influenced by European cultural values. So if I feel the way I do about Japan, chances are high that other Europeans/Westerners will be the same way too, if they experience the same things as me and judge Japanese culture by the same standards.

There are Japanese that leave the country for a greater intellectual experience and open debate on global/societal issues. There are Europeans I've known that deeply appreciate the civility and peace of Japan.

Each of us has to pursue what we think is best for ourselves and our lives personally. I'm sorry it didn't work out there but that is your individual burden. Others of us may uncover what was missing in our primary culture for very inexplicable reasons and feel immediately more at home in Asia than Europe or America.

And If Japanese society does trend in the direction of intellectualization, which is probably inevitable, it will be in a very particular style and form that the people themselves are trusting of and comfortable in.
Didn't you say you didn't like repeating yourself at some point ? :relief:

[Maciamo]

Didn't you say you didn't like repeating yourself at some point ? :relief:

I hate it, and the more people force me to do it, the more it irritates me. But I can't just tell people to re-read all my posts, can I ?

[Nicholas0016]

If you look at English and German, they are frightenly identical to each other. :)

[Mrjones]

"If you look at English and German, they are frightenly identical to each other. "

I dare to disagree. Just look at the language. Both are based on latin and are germanic languages. Still they are very different.

[JimmySeal]

German is not based on Latin. English, while it has a huge Latinate influence (due to French), is not really based on Latin either.

[Ewok85]

Most of the time I am the lone foreigner that's made his way into a fully Japanese environment - be it at work or my hobbies, I sit back and listen to what's going on. Usually not much.

For example I go into a pub I enjoy in Tokyo, order a drink and sit down. At the bar is about 5 or 6 foreigners, mainly English but also an American and someone from mainland Europe. Conversation covered global warming, the fun fun policies of the Bush administration, Iraq, Iran, Muslims in England and multiculturalism, Richard Dawkins and atheism, talking about best selling books and how authors "do it", and then they went off about the university hiring system and my friends arrived. We sat down and talked about a few things and had a good talk about AIDS and manipulation of statistics, and the bar was starting to fill up and there was only 2 of us taking up a 4 seat table, so I waved over two ladies who had been standing up.

Conversation flicked over to the usual first-time details - name, age, country, favourite foods and what the weather is like (because its like, all crazy and backwards in that funny country called Oztralia on the other side of the globe), usual shock at me being only 20 but looking 27 (apparently), usual talk about girlfriends, etc. When things got boring I chatted to my friend some more about what he had been doing lately and where he had been, and gave some suggestions.

For the rest of the night the pair were pretty quiet until I ordered some food and then the usual food questions for about an hour...


There are other times, for example at Shorinji training (martial art) I'll talk to the parents or adult kenshi (practitioners) who ask the usual questions, which means I have it down to a fine art now. Surprisingly no one tends to ask much about my job (IT関係 or コンピュータについて explanations), while most foreigners will ask "what do you do exactly?" and I'll go more in depth.

Conversation with my girlfriends friends (adults and university students alike) rarely stray far from food, fashion, "the usual questions", sex or money. Its kinda bizarre, I've spent allot of time with adults and they'll usually talk to me about their interests if they think it will help (investing mainly, also about their jobs, interest tidbits like guitar tips, motorcycle wisdom, etc) and also talking about current events ("how about that Iraq? Is that a bloody mess or what?").

While the American elections for the Senate made the news and was talked about with my friends who are Australia, English and Canadian, there wasn't even a mumble in Japan, a country who has close ties to America. I didn't even know that the Prime Minister had changed until I noticed weeks later on the internet that his name has 首相 next to it on a news article!

I don't know whether to say Japanese are superficial and shallow, or if socially that's just how it works. I'll often come across something on the web that's controversial and bounce it off my (Japanese) girlfriend to get her opinion, and she can debate pretty well with me, but seems to just not care.
(Example: Iraq. I told her about an incident recently where Bush said that in-part the invasion of Iraq was about oil - also that its not a "war", but an invasion and occupation, and slowly the media and government is using those terms as well. She wasn't really interested as it has no relation to her, until I pointed out that petrol prices have risen as a direct result of the unrest in the middle east (we were walking past a petrol station which reminded me))

[Maciamo]

While the American elections for the Senate made the news and was talked about with my friends who are Australia, English and Canadian, there wasn't even a mumble in Japan, a country who has close ties to America. I didn't even know that the Prime Minister had changed until I noticed weeks later on the internet that his name has 首相 next to it on a news article!

I think this summarises well what I mean. :-)


I don't know whether to say Japanese are superficial and shallow, or if socially that's just how it works.

Why should it be one or the other ? It is probably the way it works socially because the Japanese mindset is like that.

[Ewok85]

Why should it be one or the other ? It is probably the way it works socially because the Japanese mindset is like that.

Well, Japanese try to not bring up topics that other people may have a strong opposition to, thus politics is instantly out. When me and my friends talk about politics we abuse each other like you wouldn't believe. If you all agree, its a short and boring "conversation".

[Maciamo]

Well, Japanese try to not bring up topics that other people may have a strong opposition to, thus politics is instantly out. When me and my friends talk about politics we abuse each other like you wouldn't believe.
I don't think that discussing foreign cultures, history or society in general may engender a stronger opposition from the other party than talking about sports (for some people). Yet the Japanese do talk about sports (e.g. baseball).

If you all agree, its a short and boring "conversation".

That's also how I see it. I don't think the Japanese always agree when discussing their tastes or hobbies. The problem is not that they avoid disagreement, but avoid "intellectual" topics.

[Kinsao]

Hmmm. This is originally a very old thread... :souka:
I think it's insulting to Japanese people to say "the Japanese are superficial".
I doubt whether they, as individuals, are any more "superficial" than people from any other nation or race.
Perhaps it would be fairer to say that Japanese society and culture currently does not encourage a lot of interest in political issues.

These things go in fashions... In any country, at any one time, people's general intelligence kind of averages itself out - you get some brainy people who enjoy "deep thinking" and intellectual discussions, some people who aren't intelligent at all, and the majority who are somewhere in the middle. But there are trends about how it's fashionable to appear... sometimes it's the in thing to be seen as "intellectual", politically-aware, studious, investigative, or whatever; at other times it's more fashionable to be seen showing off your material possessions, your money, your job, your physical strength, or something else. And of course, this doesn't just depend on prevailing trends but on the circles you move in. :relief:

A lack of interest in things like politics, history, or other countries and cultures isn't necessarily an indication that the Japanese people are particularly "superficial", but merely that their interests and priorities lie elsewhere.

Personally, when I overhear conversations in England between ordinary "people on the street", in cafes, in pubs and bars, waiting in line, on public transport, etc. etc., they are very seldom about deep, meaningful and significant things. Most often they are about personal relationships, money, possessions and home improvements. (:blush: ) Perhaps the English are a superficial race, too.

I am woefully ignorant about history, politics and other countries and cultures, and I rarely take part in any discussion or conversation that you'd call "intellectual" or possibly even "intelligent". :blush: However, I'd still take exception if someone was to call me "superficial"; I think perhaps the word has a bit different connotations here? :?

Nevertheless, it appears to me as a racist generalisation, because it implies certain personal characteristics about Japanese people as individuals, whereas it's fairer to say that Japanese society functions currently in a certain way that encourages and discourages particular emphases. :p

[Nicholas0016]

hehe
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ein zwei drei vier f&uuml;nf sechs sieben acht neun zehn


I talk about food