Change Japan for a Nondiscriminatory Society

[lexico]

I found this thesis on BigDaikon that Mad Pierrot had provided a link to which I think every "gaijin" living in Japan should read to gain a better understanding of the Japanese thinking towards foreigners. I feel his theories are well founded and researched. It's a shame he never finished it......As Mandylion had noted in the previous thread both the timeliness and the need for time to breathe, it has been 16 mths since babar_san and MikeCash's closing posts. What a better occasion than PachiPro's 1st take on reviving it? (Links are at the end.)

Some random thoughts & suggestions from a friendly observer: (gaijin-gaijin: that's me.)

1. The Smaller the Better
Too big a text makes us work too hard. The great minds will of course digest and scoup up the real goodies. Each one of them might find a different part and we might end up running all over the place. Why don't we take it piecemeal this time for the ordinary guys like me?

2. Parallel Processing
If the chatpers or topics make good thematic units for discussion, why not have 12 or even 24 parallel threads all going at the same time? Nobody wants to wait practically forever for his/her favorite subtopic to begin, and it's only "fair" that ALL the relvant topics are offered up front without having to beg for it, ne?

3. Write a Book
Why don't we finish Dan Venz' book with ton's of wisdom coming from the rich experience and insights of JFORUM membership? When we feel that the major sub-issues have been dealt with to our satisfaction, we can organize an editing committee and publish the thing for the general good of gaijin/Japanese/mankind. What can be more satisfying than that? It can be on-line, hard copy, CD, pdf, html, DOC, you name it.

4. Do a Japanese translation of it.
It has been metioned time and again, that the average Japanese citizen have no formal education in the matters of "acceptance" and "discrimination," access to reliable and readable material, practical pressures to expand the insular mindset, or public attention prompted by broadcasters addressing the issues. We should take action, instead of just talk about it. But let's talk first.

5. Put the Bell on the Cat
Let's start a campaign drawing in various sectors of the Japanese society.
The press, the radio stations, TV stations, cable producers, hospitals, schools, governmental offices, political parties, embassies, and businesses that have absolutely no concept of distinguishing a visiting foreigner and a resident "gaijin." All these organizations and naiive peole need to be informed. We cannot expect anything to change if we complain and hope but do nothing about it.

6. Initiate Gaijin Discrimination Watch
If there is no objective means of measuring the degree of "discrimination" against "gaijin," bringing about the changes that you long for WILL become difficult. Isn't this what science is all about? Science that Westerners are known to be so good at? (No offense.) Why come to Japan and learn complacency? We can do that after fostering the necessary changes in Japanese society so that you can live like a person. Without it, you've basically turned into another Japanese whiner with "gaijin" looks. As in the famous case of the Westerner who's been in Japan too long, you deserve to be asked "where did you get your nose lift?" Let's change that!

7. Install an Initiation Rite for Gaijin
All societies have some form of "passage rite." Babies are born and accepted into the family as a junior-member. When it grows up to be .. yrs old, he/she takes the ... rite by which society acknowledges "it" as a fully functioning member of society. But is there such a rite for gaijins to become fully accepted and integrated into society?

Japan is not all tradition as you all know. Make a gradiose passage rite for the gaijin, and invite many Japanese people to participate as the host. Choose one day of the year as Gaijin Day and pulicise it. Demand recognition by the central government, municipalities, communities, and the Japanese constitution. Let all Japanese know that gaijins are one of them from that day on. Do it at a shito shrine if that's permissible. Invite the Emperor to bless your first day as a true and equal Nihonjin.

8. All will go well if we do the right thing!
This is only a word of encouragement coming from your friendly observer. Please make Japan better for yourselves, so that when/if I come to join you later, I won't have to go through the same old thing. You have my support, all gaijins in Japan. Let's change it.

Traffic signals:

To offer general opinions and organiztional comments on this post, please attatch response.

To discuss in Mandylion's 2003 Japan, Foreigners: Unspoken Contract thread,
go here http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1941&highlight=foreigners+unspoken+contract

To discuss in PachiPro's 2005 Japan, Foreigners: Unspoken Contract: Intro thread,
go here http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14514

To read without discussion Dan Venz' unfinished book Japan, Foreigners: The Unspoken Contract,
go here http://pub26.ezboard.com/frealdiscussionboardfrm21
or here http://www.bigdaikon.com/mystory-20030304.shtml

[Sally_Hawn]

Change Japan for a Nondiscriminatory Society?

But even the United States and Canada do not have a nondiscriminatory society although both governments try to make their laws as nondiscriminatory as possible. I think it is human nature to discriminate.

Actually, the "Japanese treatment of foreigners" is very well-known among Chinese and Koreans. So, this is not news to us. As a result, there are very few well-educated Chinese immigrate to Japan. A lot of the illegal immigrants in Japan are Chinese peasants. However, since these people are not well-enducated nor patriotic to their mother country, they are like a piece of blank paper and thus get naturalized even more easily than the intellects. In fact, my sister has a mainland Chinese friend who had immigranted to Japan some ten years ago. According to him, he had suffered from some discrimination before, but his daughter is accepted as Japanese since she was born in Japan and he didn't even need to change his last name which is 葉.

Hmmm... I think Japan wants its people to be loyal to her. So, it is possible for Koreans and Chinese to be accepted as Japanese (All they need to do is to give up their heritage which maybe seen as an insult to some of them) .... err... more difficult for visible minority though.

Well, after I have read all the discriminatory threads in this forum, I still have a strongly positive opinion of the Japanese people. It is because I know it beforehand it's not suitable for people like me to live and work in Japan. Therefore, I will always be a tourist over there, and Japanese people treat tourists really nice!!!!!

And in North America I only make friends with good-quality smart Japanese people and skip the not-so-smart narrow-minded Japanese people!!!!!! (Ha ha... I am very good at making my life easy).

Wow wow wow, when compared to Canada, Japan is soooo interesting. Discrimitory society or not, I will defintely travel to Japan next year. It is not like I have to deal with those discriminations. ^_^

[Faustianideals]

Damn Foreigners!

[Maciamo]

First of all, I'd like to thank Lexico for this brilliant initiative. There are lots of good ideas in this thread. I'd really like to see a nice, constructive discussion which could culminate in a book aimed at educating the Japanese public about accepting better foreigners and recognising the tourists from the residents.

It is already one of my purpose with Japan Reference to raise the awareness of the problems that exist between Japanese and "gaijins" so as to improve these relations.

Let me now comment a few points below.


7. Install an Initiation Rite for Gaijin
All societies have some form of "passage rite." Babies are born and accepted into the family as a junior-member. When it grows up to be .. yrs old, he/she takes the ... rite by which society acknowledges "it" as a fully functioning member of society. But is there such a rite for gaijins to become fully accepted and integrated into society?

That would be possible within a closed group (family, company, school, circle of friends...) but would have no effect on the rest of the society. For example, I got married in Japan, and all the guests but my parents were Japanese. So I felt it was like a "rite of admission" within my wife's family and circle of friends in some way. However, nobody outside this limited group knows that I am married to a Japanese, speak Japanese or know anything about Japan when they see me or talk to me for the first time. I can usually tell easily which foreigner is a tourist and which is a resident (and not just in Japan, but about anywhere). Basically, if I go to the dry cleaning with a loadfull of business shirts, I expect the staff to guess that I am not a tourist but live there. So there is little point is making gestures and starting acting weird when I walk in (especially their behaviour doesn't change when I come back the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th time - always the same person, and still doesn't understand that I cannot understand her gestures and she should speak Japanese, eventhough I told her).

Japan is not all tradition as you all know. Make a gradiose passage rite for the gaijin, and invite many Japanese people to participate as the host. Choose one day of the year as Gaijin Day and pulicise it. Demand recognition by the central government, municipalities, communities, and the Japanese constitution. Let all Japanese know that gaijins are one of them from that day on. Do it at a shito shrine if that's permissible. Invite the Emperor to bless your first day as a true and equal Nihonjin.

That would be wonderful, but unfortunately how many Japanese do you think want that to happen ? As I mentioned in another thread, Japanese act in a very hypocritical way toward foreigners; they can be very kind and helpful, but deep inside them feel embarassed and strongly wish that Japan would be free of foreigners (there is a strong nostalgy for the 'good old days of Edo' when Japan was a closed country, with no foreigner disturbing the hypothetic harmony).

I have been able to squeeze out those feelings from some Japanese I talked to. It requires a lot of tact, as none of them want to admit negative feelings toward foreigners in public (tatemae situation), especially when asked by a foreigner. But asking whether they think it is a good thing for Japan to accept more immigrants (witjout specifying the country or region or origin), most Japanese will say "no". When asking whether they think that Koreans or Chinese living in Japan should be able to work for the government, most answer "no". When asking whether they don't think that Japanese and Koreans share a lot of similarities, many are surprised and say "no, no, no", when they in fact do. When asking whether they think that Japan has become more dangerous in recent years because of the increase of foreigners, most of them agree. I have asked dozens of such questions to 20 to 50 people, and whatever their gender or background, their answer usually goes in the same direction : "Japan doesn't need foreigners, and especially not long-stayers".

Under such circumstances it may be very difficult to re-educate the population. Even if the government suddenly decided to start teaching school children about all the things you mentioned, the effects would only become apparent in the next few decades - and could even be thwarted by social pressure from outside school (family, company, media, culture...).

What is more, I understand that not all foreigners in Japan are "good foreigners". In addition to the Roppongi-type Westerners that come only to bring girls back to their bed or some misbehaving US soldiers, there is also a minority who Chinese mafia (that make the whole Chinese community of Japan look very bad with all the things they do), South-East Asian economic migrants who turn to prostitution or robberies, and even misbehaving tourists from anywhere in the world. The main problem is that the media and government like to mention these few foreigners as the "cause of all evils" and try all they can to inculcate to the public that crimes are usually commited by foreigners.

So the problem stems from the government and media themselves, and I seriously doubt that even a Gaijin-Japanese lobby would convince them to suddenly change their attitude. What we need is a strong condemnation from Western countries' government (as Japan tends to ignore those of China or Korea, even for such serious matters as war crimes). I think, we should contact each Western government (via the embassies for instance) and try to convince them to take a unilateral action to condemn the encouragement of discrimination in Japan - and THEN we come forth with our book so that the Japanese authorities and media (almost one and same thin in Japan) can publicize it under the pressure of Western governments.

The Japanese people are not bad, they are just too influenceable and therefore at the mercy of the government/media policies. I am confident that if the government and media tried to change the attitude toward foreigners in Japan, change would come pretty fast and effectively. It is just a matter of lack of desire to change things - as always in Japan

[den4]

You bring up some good points, Lexico and Maciamo...
one thing that may be a "cause" for the distance some Japanese want to put towards foreigners is the Japanese need to have something they can call their own...even though they know that it originally came from outside of Japan...
I can't speak for our brothers and sisters in Europe or other countries, but I do know that in the US, people have a certain standard of living that falls into their comfort zone (often confused by that word "freedom" that has been so badly abused that it has lost much of its meaning these days)...
Once I brought some pictures of Portland (years before it came to be known as De-Portland) to show to some Japanese business types, and they had an interest in the pics...but one thing they always made a point in noting was how many things they could identify that was from Japan...
Perhaps finding what is famliar to them is a way they find to cope with unfamiliar surroundings...and this is why there is that insistent attitude of claiming whether something is similar to Japan, like the four seasons...or whether Europe has 7-11, or some other questioning that would come off as an idiotic question.....
Rather than trying to change the mindsmog already filled in the adults, the Nondiscriminatory proliferation society would need to focus on the youngsters and the education/school board, so that social etiquette as well as understanding and respecting Japanese history and customs and traditions are held in equal measure (to make sure that the adults are not totally estranged from their own people)...
Fear of the unfamiliar and unknown causes people to behave irrationally...and even when it is a known thing, certain phobias will still cause people to behave irrationally...so the job of the 21st century "gaijin" and nihonjin will need to be the familiarization of both sides to avoid future circumstances of uneasiness and losing face before one another...and this should help stir society towards becoming less discriminating (in the negative sense)...

but that's my view, as naive as it sounds in its idealism... :D

[Pachipro]

The Japanese people are not bad, they are just too influenceable and therefore at the mercy of the government/media policies. I am confident that if the government and media tried to change the attitude toward foreigners in Japan, change would come pretty fast and effectively. It is just a matter of lack of desire to change things - as always in Japan

My thoughts also. Lexico makes some great points, but it has to begin with a government initiative and all else will fall into place. The government starts it, it is reported in the media, therefore the Japanese believe it and begin to act on it. The teachers, doing what the government tells them, begin to teach it in their schools and soon life becomes a little more easier for foreigners. Without the government first implementing it nothing will change.

[misa.j]

Right on, lexico! I think you have great ideas.

Approaching and educating the Japanese government as an initiation of a project seems to be a long way.

In contrast, making actions in a community seems more accessable and realistic. It might be a better way to get media attention, which could help influence the government eventually.

[Silverpoint]

7. Install an Initiation Rite for Gaijin
All societies have some form of "passage rite." Babies are born and accepted into the family as a junior-member. When it grows up to be .. yrs old, he/she takes the ... rite by which society acknowledges "it" as a fully functioning member of society. But is there such a rite for gaijins to become fully accepted and integrated into society?


Actually, if I'm honest, this kind of thing really annoys me. Not because it's a terrible idea, but because if Japan actually introduced something like this, it would be immeidately pointed at by a group of foreigners as something which is discriminatory. e.g. "Why do we have to go through some kind of stupid ceremony just to be accepted in Japan?"

[Maciamo]

Actually, if I'm honest, this kind of thing really annoys me. Not because it's a terrible idea, but because if Japan actually introduced something like this, it would be immeidately pointed at by a group of foreigners as something which is discriminatory. e.g. "Why do we have to go through some kind of stupid ceremony just to be accepted in Japan?"

Because the Japanese like formal ceremonies. :p In fact, the British government also wants to introduce a so-called Britishness test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britishness_test) for people who want to obtain the British nationality. This is one step further than simple acceptance and integration. But should natives also take this test or rite in Japan or the UK ? Apparently, a sizeable portion of the British population wouldn't pass the Britishness test.

Likewise, I am sure that most Japanese people wouldn't be able to pass a test with questions related to their own culture, history or political system. This is what makes me most angry, as it deeply annoys me to be treated like an ignorant of "Japanese things" by people who generally know less than me on the subject. It happens pretty often that I have to correct some Japanese when they are explaining things about their own country (e.g. Japan's population is 127 million, not 100 million, or the Taisho period started in 1912, not 1915, or the capital of Kagawa prefecture is Takamatsu not another city, etc.)

[skip]

Let's start a campaign drawing in various sectors of the Japanese society.
The press, the radio stations, TV stations, cable producers, hospitals, schools, governmental offices, political parties, embassies, and businesses that have absolutely no concept of distinguishing a visiting foreigner and a resident "gaijin." All these organizations and naiive peole need to be informed. We cannot expect anything to change if we complain and hope but do nothing about it.

Hi,

One step is to stop using the word 'gaijin.' Possibly the most annoying phrases I occasionally hear (usually from children on the subway) are 'gaijin-san da!' The -san seems patronizing, and the whole utterance doesn't feel nice. I'm not blaming the children of course. Also, 'gaijin' has a very, very strong connotation of "caucasian foreigner," that is, 'white.' To include people of other backgrounds, the word 'gaikokujin' is more appropriate.

More pedantically, although some people claim that 'gaijin' is an abbreviation of 'gaikokujin,' this is actually incorrect. 'Gaijin' (guwai-jin) is an older word than 'gaikokujin,' and originally meant someone from outside one's group (nakama-igai no hito in a classical dictionary), whereas 'gaikokujin' seems (to the best of my knowledge) to have been coined in Meiji, and isn't listed in my classical dictionary. (旺文社古語辞典)

Certainly, in modern usage the meaning of 'gaijin' has changed, but, as one foreign resident, it seems to almost never have positive vibes associated with it. There are still remnants of the old definition. My modern dictionary (大辞林) lists a second definition of 'gaijin' as "someone not in the inner-circle or family" (uchiwa de nai hito).

See here (http://www.debito.org/kume5tvasahibroadcast.html#origins) and here (http://www.debito.org/kumegaijinissue.html) for Debito Arudou's comments.

[pipokun]

I'd like to say many things in this post, but a bit too tired after going to a local firework fes.

some posters intentionally hide some facts.
Do you know there are some Diet members after naturalising from other countries in Japan? Could you tell me how many countries where you can be a public servant without any citizenship?
No anti-discrimination education in Japan?
It is just USO, lies.
Gaijin usage
Just watch/read J media from now on for next 1 year, and you realise that it is nothing but a myth to use the word now. And just surf other Japan related forums, sites, or here. Only sarcastic people use it.

The Edo period is really nice, not because there was fewer non-Japanese, but because... off-topic.

I'm not saying here are no racists in Japan, and I know generalisation is funny.

[Silverpoint]

I have to disagree with a few of your comments.


One step is to stop using the word 'gaijin.' Possibly the most annoying phrases I occasionally hear (usually from children on the subway) are 'gaijin-san da!'

Children are children. To be somehow affronted by the utterances of young people who don't know any better appears rather too sensitive in my view. Children do a lot of things that aren't appropriate including pointing out people who 'look different', but this is considerably more to do with innocent curiosity - you're hardly suggesting that a 12 year old harbors a simmering urge to racially discriminate towards others are you?


The -san seems patronizing, and the whole utterance doesn't feel nice. I'm not blaming the children of course.

I don't find the -san suffix patronizing at all, and from my own experience it is rarely meant as such. If anything it's added out of politeness. If you feel patronized, despite the fact that another person is try to be well meaning, that's really your issue, not theirs.


Also, 'gaijin' has a very, very strong connotation of "caucasian foreigner," that is, 'white.' To include people of other backgrounds, the word 'gaikokujin' is more appropriate.

Do you have evidence for this (I'd be interested to read it), or is this just your general impression?

I'm neither a raging conservative nor a bleeding heart liberal, and I freely admit that Japan has a LONG way to go before tackling some of the issues relating to foreigners. But sometimes I can't help feeling that people focus on such trivial points where there is very little to get steamed up about.

[skip]

Good points. :) It's quite possible that I was wrong, especially on 'gaijin-san' feeling patronizing in some cases. I think 'gaijin-san' is possibly an interesting expression though (from an academic standpoint at least). Thanks - it's always educational to notice places where my feel for Japanese is far from perfect.


Children are children. To be somehow affronted by the utterances of young people who don't know any better appears rather too sensitive in my view.

I completely agree. It's not their fault, they bear no ill will, etc. I love children and being around children. For me, it's slightly annoying to have a random verbal outburst noting that I'm different on a train, but perhaps inevitable. My apologies for slandering the children inadvertently.


I don't find the -san suffix patronizing at all, and from my own experience it is rarely meant as such. If anything it's added out of politeness. If you feel patronized, despite the fact that another person is try to be well meaning, that's really your issue, not theirs.

Is '-san' commonly added after '-jin' other than after 'gaijin?' 日本人さん returns only 592 hits on google when restricted to .jp, while 外人さん returns 190,000. This is more of an intellectual curiosity though. Sure, -san is of course polite and well-meaning. If someone addresses me specifically, I'd feel better with 'gaijin-san' than 'gaijin,' although I'd much prefer my name or some appropriate title. But, to say 'he's an American' or 'he's a Japanese,' we don't need the '-san.' To say, 'Look, a foreigner!', I don't understand why the '-san' is needed, other than to make it sound better.


Do you have evidence for this (I'd be interested to read it), or is this just your general impression?

I don't have any serious books that discuss 'gaijin' and 'gaikokujin.'
This (http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9809&L=iaido-l&P=2241) is one of the more reputable-looking Internet references I can find supporting my idea. There are also lots of random assertions in both directions. I'm not a native speaker, so I do make mistakes. I'll try to ask native-speaker friends what they think. (Are Zainichi gaijin? gaikokujin? Are 10 year residents from China gaijin? 10 year Caucasian/etc residents? Naturalized citizens? Are any or all gaikokujin? How about former Japanese citizens who surrender citizenship?)
This (http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=popvox&id=386&display=all) tiny poll seems to indicate at least some relevant difference (in usage of 'gaijin') amongst native speakers.

To me, 'gaijin' seems to differentiate based on race, and 'gaikokujin' seems to do so based on nationality (citizenship).

I think I'll try to stay out of political-related discussions. :relief: My major point was that either 'gaikokujin' or 'foreign resident' would possibly have been more appropriate in the original post. I'm not trying at all to argue political issues/etc. My personal anecdotes are probably useless. :)

It's 3am here now, and I'm off to bed. G'night. :)

[pipokun]

I think the JT's question is a bit tricky.
When you say "gaijin," which nationality are you referring to?

If they'd have asked following questions first, the article would be fairer.
"Do you use/see/read/hear the word, Gaijin, in your daily life?"
"Which do you use "Gaijin" or "Gaikokujin" more often.

To Lexico,
It seems to me that Machiamo explains all Confucian ways of thinking for J non-democratic society or maybe discrimination here. Correct me if I'm wrong, Master.

What do you think of Confucianism in your country? Do you think it is that evil?

Many thanks in advance.

[lexico]

To Lexico,
It seems to me that Machiamo explains all Confucian ways of thinking for J non-democratic society or maybe discrimination here. ...
What do you think of Confucianism in your country ? Do you think it is that evil ?I read your question, but could not reply because my understanding of Confucianism is rather shallow. I thought I should study it properly before saying anything; at the same time didn't want to keep you wondering, so here are my impressionistic thoughts.

I think there are several definitions of Confucianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). The kind of Confucianism that we are taught in school and that we see enforced in the official aspects of society seems to be neo-Confucianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Confucianism) started by Zhu Xi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Xi). For those of us who learned Confucianism in school as part of the social norm or ideal principle of society, it seems to be a little difficult to penetrate beyond the neo-Confucian idea and see the pre-Song Confucianism in an objective way.

Perhaps the best way to grasp the core of Confucianism could be obtained by examining the life of Confucius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius) himself, and the historical setting in which he developed his thinking. What impressed me about Confucianism from reading several recent studies on Confucius and his Analects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analects_of_Confucius), it appears that neo-Confucianism that I have been accustomed to is nothing near what it was as "primitive" Confucianism. Several characteristics that stood out:

Primitive Confucianism grew out of shamanism and Zhou historical studies. By combining the two, Confucius had formulated a ritual restoration of the Zhou ancestral rites appicable to all classes of people as long as they were literate and well-versed in the Zhou institutions and modes of thinking. An individual's thoughts are quite important, because ultimately the Confucian must know, perform, and communicate the ideals of Zhou Gong both to the spirits and to his fellow human beings. Not only receving and transmitting the tradition are important, but a true understanding of the ancients minds were important, even more so actually. Only by so doing could the natural, crude man transform himself into the civilized, sensitised man who values and honors his understanding, ideals, and integrity over unprincipled random chioces influenced by fear, coercion, material gain, or social recognition.

Such ideals are alive in the Analects; even the neo-Confucians admired such teachings that ispired the soul. But it was the narrow interpretation of Zhu Xi who drastically reduced the old commentaries, often historical, linguistic, or encyclopedic, and philosophical traditions accumulated over nearly 1400 yrs into 4 books and 3 canons. Thus the scholarship and tradition were rapidly lost with only a few volumes of shallow, debased, and dogmatic interpretation of Zhu Xi remaining (comparable to Cliff's notes) to excercise influence all over east Asia.

With Confucius came the Zhou renaissence; with Zhu Xi began the dark age of Asian philosophy, philology, literature, and science. I'm sure there will be arguments that certain philosophers, philologists, and scientists did exist after Zhu Xi; no doubt. But with the motivating inspiration of idividualism gone, suppressed, and banned under pain of death (for example, in the case of Choson Korea, any Confucian debate criticising or in denial of Zhu Xi often proved dangerous; one could suffer either loss of office, banishment, or slander by political enemies) there would be little hope for genuine progress as a growing, learning, discovering civilization. Imo, Zhu Xi was the worst cultural disaster that happened in east Asia that killed individuality and creative thinking. What do you think about Zhu Xi's influence on Japan since the Song dynasty ?

[Maciamo]

Do you know there are some Diet members after naturalising from other countries in Japan? Could you tell me how many countries where you can be a public servant without any citizenship?

There aren't any Diet member in Japan that do not have Japanese nationality. There is/was one guy originally from Finland, who was naturalised Japanese. I haven't heard of any other foreigners. In any case, Suomi (Finnish language) is more closely related to Japanese than Chinese or most Asian languages, which could explain the special treatment.

Do I know many country where ethnic minorities can become Member of Parliament ? Yes ! Just look at the UK or the US. There are many British MP's or high ranking public servants of Indian/Pakistani origins. I at least know these 4 :

Parmjit Dhanda, Labour MP.
Mohammad Sarwar, Labour MP.
Parmjit Singh Gill, Liberal Democrats MP.
Keith Vaz, Labour MP.

The first British MP of Indian origin was over 100 years ago, well before South Asians migrated in mass to the UK.

In the USA, many Congress people, politicians or civil servants are Black or Hispanic, despite the fact that discrimination still exist toward these ethnic groups. In Japan, the near total absence of ethnically non-Japanese Diet members or high ranking civil servants, means that discrimination is more deeply rooted, especially within the government itself. In most Western countries the government try hard to erradicate discrimination, which is partly why so many people from ethnic minorities have a career in politics or public administration. In Japan, the government and police tend to encourage discrimination, both against foreigners and women, although there is some progress regarding women (hardly any regarding foreigners). So it's only natural that the general population should 'follow suit'. It is true that discrimination or racism in Japan is mostly non-violent, but there is no need of violence to ostracize someone and make them feel that they will always be different and never really part of the group because they are and will remain "gaijin" (outsiders) due to their looks.

[Maciamo]

Is '-san' commonly added after '-jin' other than after 'gaijin?' 日本人さん returns only 592 hits on google when restricted to .jp, while 外人さん returns 190,000.

Very good point. Nobody would say "Mr American" or "Mr British" or "Mr Japanese" in English. No Japanese would say "Nihonjin-san", but why is it so common to say "Gaijin-san" then ?

I admit that I hadn't noticed before. Personally, what I dislike about the "gaijin" appellation is that it is meant to ostracise or make the person feel like an outsider (exactly what "gaijin" means). It doesn't really matter whether it is "gaijin", "gaikokujin" or "gaijin-san". For me they are basically the same (the feeling is the same, even if the politeness level is slightly different).

It particularily gets on my nerves when I hear Japanese people refer to someone whose nationality they know as "gaijin" rather than their nationality. Not only does the word "gaijin" stress the fact that the person is not a member of the group ("is clearly different"), but it also gives a feeling that the speaker doesn't really care where the person is from, because "all foreigners are the same" or "it just doesn't matter which country they are from, as they are not Japanese and that is what matters most".

When I explain that to Japanese people, I am often told "We Japanese cannot differentiate between Westerners." This is just a lame excuse, especially when they know where the person is from but still call them "gaijin". Likewise, I often hear even my in-laws say "mukou" ("on the other side") to refer to "Europe", "America" or whatever other country than Japan they are talking about. This is yet again a sign of vagueness that show how little they care about country's or continent's names. To sum up, in a usual Japanese's mind, the world is made of "Japan and the outside", and people are either Japanese or outsiders. When talking about something in Japan, they speak as normally as a Westerner would, giving all the details necessary about the place and people, and sometimes even more. But when talking about another country, it just becomes "over there" and people are vaguely described as "gaijin", wherever they come from.

Personally, this vagueness and amalgam of all countries outside Japan as a sort of uniformous mass makes me even angrier than the thought of being discriminated by being called a "gaijin". So, everytime a Japanese tells me that
gaijin do this, or ask me whether gaijin do that, my reaction is to ask them whether they are talking about Chinese people (or another non-Western country). Or I explain that I don't know because I don't understand who they are talking about.

[Maciamo]

If they'd have asked following questions first, the article would be fairer.
"Do you use/see/read/hear the word, Gaijin, in your daily life?"
"Which do you use "Gaijin" or "Gaikokujin" more often.

Japanese people who are often in contact with foreigners and who do not use the words "Gaijin" or "Gaikokujin" are a tiny tiny minority, in my experience. For me, using "Gaijin" or "Gaikokujin" is the same. It's not a matter of politeness, it's a matter o placing all countries under a common term, as if all the world was uniformous. This is completely unacceptable and makes the speaker sounds mentally retarded (or very naive, which is just a more polite way of putting it).

[Ma Cherie]

This is all very interesting, but since Japan is still such a homogenous society, changing it will take some time as well all know. That issue with "gaijin san" maybe it's just me, but that seems like a nice way of being rude. Or better yet, a nice of not wanting to acknowledge your nationality. And being called "gaijin" why does it seem that some japanese have to make it a point to let you know that you're an outsider? I mean really? Maybe it's the whole japanese mentality thing, but what you said Maciamo about the excuse that the japanese can't tell the difference between Westners, well why don't they just conjure up the courage and ask what country you're from. To me, that excuse says that "I don't want to know what country you're from." :sorry: :blush:

[lexico]

You raise an interesting question, Ma Cherie.

It might have to do with culture, and daily experience. Without much exposure, the different caucasian or even non-caucasian nationalities might not register because there are not those tiny boxes in the vocabulary in the language area. People talk about colors, numbers, snow, fish; how they vary from local cuture to culture. Because Koreans eat seaweed, we have more than a dozen words for them; I think English does not have everyday words for the various edible seaweeds because they are not eaten-- all swept under one word, seaweed, just to cite one example.

[Maciamo]

It might have to do with culture, and daily experience. Without much exposure, the different caucasian or even non-caucasian nationalities might not register because there is not those tiny boxes in the vocabulary in the language area. People talk about colors, numbers, snow, fish; how they vary from local cuture to culture. Because Koreans eat seaweed, we have more than a dozen words for them; I think English does not have everyday words for the various edible seaweeds because they are not eaten-- all swept under one word, seaweed just to cit one example.

Do you mean that Japanese speakers are not familiar with country names such as Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, etc. the way English speakers are not familiar with the names of dozens of seaweeds ? I can't believe that. When it comes to food, all of a sudden the Japanese are surprisingly gifted to differentiate countries and not the less surprisingly more proficient in foreign languages. The Japanese have a much better memory for names of foreign food (be it French, Italian, Vietnamese, Korean, etc.) than for anything else. So they can differentiate between countries. It just seem that they intentionally refarin from doing it when it comes to people.

Nowdays, in most Western countries, the average people would consider it rude to call a Japanese a Chinese or vice-versa. Most Canadians do not want to be taken for Americans, the way most New Zealanders are annoyed at being associated to Australians. Even inside a same country, it can cause problems (don't call a Scot an Englishman !). The Japanese are also sensitive to that. Few Japanese would be happy to be called Chinese, Thai or whatever other nationality. But it seems that the Japanese are so self-centered that, although they understand how it feels, they just don't care at all when it comes to differentiating between non Japanese. Calling someone a "gaijin" is for me more offensive than being mistaken for a neigbouring country (I don't mind so much being taken for a German, Dutchman, Frenchman or Englishman), because I am likened to people of just any race and nationality as if it didn't matter at all as "all foreigners are only foreigners anyway".

[lexico]

Do you mean that Japanese speakers are not familiar with country names such as Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, etc. the way English speakers are not familiar with the names of dozens of seaweeds ? I can't believe that.Of course those words exist; but what I meant was for words to exist in a meaningful way so that even one slight mistake can either make or break a meaningful effort. If misidentifying a person's nationality can create a problem and correct identification can solve a problem, then the distinction cease to be a mere formal one but a significant one. In the absence of a social context that doesn't care, the significance is absent, and hence the formal vocabulary is not meaningful. If what I described can be postulated, the strange phenomenon that repeated statements from a foreigner not registering in the mind/memory/understanding of an average Japanese person can be explained. Another way to put it would be, "If it doesn't hurt, why bother ?" That would be a bad phrasing of the situation, but it might reflect reality more closely. To remedy that, misidentification or failure to recognise the nationality of a foreigner must have consequences, such as corrective shaming in the schools and families. Whether the people of Japan is ready or not; whether the gov't/lawmakers of Japan find it important enough to put continued, conscientious effort to make that part of Japanese cultural norm could hold the key as mentioned several times earlie. I only tried to describe it in a formal way; sorry for not being specific enough.When it comes to food, all of a sudden the Japanese are surprisingly gifted to differentiate countries and not the less surprisingly more proficient in foreign languages. The Japanese have a much better memory for names of foreign food (be it French, Italian, Vietnamese, Korean, etc.) than for anything else.Yes, these are good examples, Maciamo. Misidentifying the ethnic identity of a dish will affect their gastronomic schedule; hence correct identification is meaningful, and the formal distinctions are supplemented by significant distinctions.

So they can differentiate between countries. It just seem that they intentionally refarin from doing it when it comes to people.

Nowdays, in most Western countries, the average people would consider it rude to call a Japanese a Chinese or vice-versa. Most Canadians do not want to be taken for Americans, the way most New Zealanders are annoyed at being associated to Australians. Even inside a same country, it can cause problems (don't call a Scot an Englishman !). The Japanese are also sensitive to that. Few Japanese would be happy to be called Chinese, Thai or whatever other nationality. But it seems that the Japanese are so self-centered that, although they understand how it feels, they just don't care at all when it comes to differentiating between non Japanese. Calling someone a "gaijin" is for me more offensive than being mistaken for a neigbouring country (I don't mind so much being taken for a German, Dutchman, Frenchman or Englishman), because I am likened to people of just any race and nationality as if it didn't matter at all as "all foreigners are only foreigners anyway".I wonder if people's feelings (esp. that of a stranger, ie. someone one doesn't know) have much value in the social context. I can only offer three possiblities that might have caused the selective ability to differentiate foods but not peoples. Because people can't be eaten ? Excuse me.

1) historical resentment: for historical reasons reachinging back to the opening of ports down to the surrender in WWII, foreigners are primarily perceived as powerful occupiers who are supposed to project authority. While foreign military personnel might be automatically associated with authority, civilians are stereotyped as tourists only; if not, they are the target of venting the resentment arising from certain historical concessions. Either mildly or professedly, these resentments often find a venting hole on the relatively less authoritative civilian foreigner, esp. those who stay, and not passing thru. (similar to the closed-minded town where John J. Rambo first set foot in)

2) indifference to emotions/lack of empathy: Japanese people's feelings are neglected anyway. So why should foreigners's feeling of frustration be treated any different than that of the native Japnese ?

3) low population ratio of foreigners made the Japnaese to consider foreignes marginal: due to the unfamiliarity with foreigners, that low frequency of contact has created a standard mindset of considering foreign people as exceptions only, and not a significant part of the japanese people.

These are just my formal attempt at explaining the strange phenomenon of not recognising a foreigner's nationality after numerous repetition. I don't know what other possibilities there might be; nor which factor might be the dominant factor contrubuting to their disturbing behavior as you described.

[pipokun]

To Maciamo,
I did not know that 4 Indian people are the members with their Indian citizenship retained or without the naturalisation. And yes, Japan is behind. As far as I know, it was just in 1930s when the first non-Japanese Diet member elected in Japan, and then Japanese women had no voting right before the end of WWII.

Could you tell me more about how to overcome regional/racial conflicts in Belgium? Or in case she is struggling to solve them even she has more immigrants in number as well as more avarage well-educated people than Japan does, what is inside the problems? Your info must be good for any societies.

To lexico,
Many thanks for the detailed explanation about the Confucianism. I'd like to know more about your first-hand interpretation of Confucian ways in your daily life in South Korea. I did not realise how beautiful Korean ways of conduct, more confucian ways, before I actually went to see them in your country.
Well, I'm getting a bit older.

[Maciamo]

In the absence of a social context that doesn't care, the significance is absent, and hence the formal vocabulary is not meaningful.

But the cases I was referring to are always those where people talk of gaijin in front of me, or directly to me. I never complained about waht they are saying between them or thinking to themselves.

Another way to put it would be, "If it doesn't hurt, why bother ?" That would be a bad phrasing of the situation, but it might reflect reality more closely. To remedy that, misidentification or failure to recognise the nationality of a foreigner must have consequences, such as corrective shaming in the schools and families.

If it doesn't hurt between Japanese, I will never miss an opportunity to criticise a Japanese talking of "gaijin" instead of a particular nationality, ethnic group or "cultural" group (e.g. "Westerners", "Muslims"...). If they feel ashamed when corrected of mocked by Westerners. Looking the other way round, it is the foreigners/Westerners that may feel hurt by this insensitivity of the Japanese. So people get hurt once Japanese use the word "gaijin" with foreigners (which is when they are most likely to use it anyway).

1) historical resentment: for historical reasons reachinging back to the opening of ports down to the surrender in WWII, foreigners are primarily perceived as powerful occupiers who are supposed to project authority. While foreign military personnel might be automatically associated with authority, civilians are stereotyped as tourists only; if not, they are the target of venting the resentment arising from certain historical concessions. Either mildly or professedly, these resentments often find a venting hole on the relatively less authoritative civilian foreigner, esp. those who stay, and not passing thru. (similar to the closed-minded town where John J. Rambo first set foot in)

Are you talking about the Chinese or the Koreans, or about the Americans maybe ? In any case, that does not concern me. Belgian people have never attacked or occupied Japan, or even had any contact before Meiji. The same applies to many other European countries. Some in fact were allies of Japan during the war (Germany, Austria, Italy + allies such as Sweden, Spain, Switerland...). So I really don't see what historical resentment there could be. The funny thing is that when the Japanese do not call Westerners "gaijin", they often assimilate them all as "Americans", even their former allies that were also defeated and occupied by the US. :mad:

3) low population ratio of foreigners made the Japnaese to consider foreignes marginal: due to the unfamiliarity with foreigners, that low frequency of contact has created a standard mindset of considering foreign people as exceptions only, and not a significant part of the japanese people.

In Tokyo, where I live and where are based all my experiences of hearing the word "gaijin" used, 2.8% of the population are foreigners (http://www.jref.com/society/foreigners_in_japan.shtml). As most of them live in the central wards of Tokyo (where my experiences are based too), the proportion there is even higher - maybe 5%. This percentage is higher than the percentage of foreigners in most European countries, especially outside big cities. In fact, there is in average 0 to 0.5% of foreigners in the European countryside, but I have never heard people use a similar term as "gaijin" (outsider, foreigner, "the other"...) to describe or address a foreigner.

Anyway it doesn't really matter, as most of the cases in which I heard the word "gaijin" were when people talked in my presence (often directly to me), so these people had contact with at least me (and I was never the first Westerner they had met, let alone foreigner as a whole).

[yukio_michael]

It's interesting, this week it seems that some criticism is being raised (again) from Amnesty International Japan / Japan Bar Assoc. concerning the fingerprinting (and other tactics said to be implemented to combat 'terrorism') of foreigners (assides from Koreans living in Japan)... link here (http://www.crisscross.com/jp/news/369044)...

It's good to see that there is a dialogue about immigration and foreigners at least. In the broader scope however I think Japan's ideas about racism, or rather, it's lack of clarity about racism is something that will take a long time to errode.

Japan seems to have a fascination for minstrels--- Bobby Ologon styled uncle tom-foolery... Afros, that sort of thing. The idea that caricature is a cultural point of interest and not perhaps, offensive is an undercurrent through popular culture.

I remember seeing a television program concerning how well other countries teach the Japanese language through culture--- the show concluded not very well or humourously at best.

It seemed a little concieted not to mention ignorant to deride other people for their inability to understand your culture when consistantly Japan lacks so little external cultural awareness themselves. Maybe it's impossible for anyone to know Japan, when you isolate yourself that's what happens---

I'm not counting on a revolution, but I'd like to see Japan at least become a place that honest people could choose to live in, to migrate to, without having to 'mary' their way in--- Living in Japan seems either like a temporary lark, or something you have to conciously acquire through wedlock... and this, unfortunately, doesn't seem to be changing---

[Glenzki]

Mr. Venz has admitted on GaijinPot that his Phd was a lie. It can be assumed that most of the research for his book was also fabricated. He did raise some important issues which should be discussed further.

It was good to see the Korean man working for Sekisui House being supported by his company over derogoratory comments made to an employee by a customer. Times are changing.

I was also impressed by the Japanese to boo that Kameda boxer for winning that World Title fight. I hope the boos weren't misdirected at the Korean judge. People assuming he was paid off.

[John Mercy Q]

Some countries have "practical discrimination tests", in order to prove that an establishment discriminated against people of a non native ethnic group. If someone feels discriminated somewhere, they can request the local authorities to send a "mystery shopper" of the same ethnic group as the plaintiff trying to gain access to the establishment. If this person is refused entry, they repeat the operation with 2 more people, and if they are constantly refused entry for no good reason, the establishment can be accused of unfair discrimination. Would such a system work in Japan ? Is there a political will to do so ?

[Mrjones]

I find it silly that Japanese put so much weight for their homogenity. Like that would be worthy excuse for discriminatory. In Finland we at least have law against racism to protect our 4 promil foreign citizens.

http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_vaesto_en.html#Foreigners

[E. Yamazaki]

I'm doing a research project on racism and discrimination in Japan. How do you think racism towards the Ainu and Okinawans compares to the racism against 3rd and 4th generation Koreans, buraku, and other minority groups?

[Mikawa Ossan]

I wonder how many "acculturated foreigners" have voted on this poll...

[KirinMan]

I wonder how many "acculturated foreigners" have voted on this poll...

Since you asked this could you answer a question for me please?

What qualifies a foreigner as being acculturated?:wave:

[Mikawa Ossan]

Since you asked this could you answer a question for me please?
What qualifies a foreigner as being acculturated?:wave:
Good question! And it highlights exactly why I don't like these polls in the first place: they are way too vague with far too much room for interpretation.

[KirinMan]

Good question! And it highlights exactly why I don't like these polls in the first place: they are way too vague with far too much room for interpretation.


It seems to me at least that some of the polls that are popular here have a tendency to focus on the negatives more than the positives, that is not a comment against them, just an observation about the content that members here seem to choose more often.

And yes I agree with you that they leave quite a bit of room open for interpretation by everyone.

I hope that someday I finally get through the acculturation process here in Japan and can eventually tell everyone here that I am acculturational foreigner living in Japan that became acculturated through drinking awamori in Okinawa!:shock: :smug: :gulp:

Try and say THIS 10 times fast acculturation, accuturational, acculturated Whew!

[Mikawa Ossan]

It seems to me at least that some of the polls that are popular here have a tendency to focus on the negatives more than the positives, that is not a comment against them, just an observation about the content that members here seem to choose more often.I think people just like to complain. It's easier to do than to say something positive a lot of the time.
I hope that someday I finally get through the acculturation process here in Japan and can eventually tell everyone here that I am acculturational foreigner living in Japan that became acculturated through drinking awamori in Okinawa!:shock: :smug: :gulp:
Try and say THIS 10 times fast acculturation, accuturational, acculturated Whew!
It's all relative, man.

To be on topic, I think that Japanese people will treat you the way you asked to be treated by your actions and what you speak. If you act like a dumb foreigner, that's the way you'll be treated. If you can make jokes with them in Japanese that are actually funny, they will laugh and make jokes back. If you respond in a "Japanese" manner to people, they will do the same to you.

Of course there are exceptions to this, and I have encountered such exceptions, but I think that people should take a good hard look at themselves before pointing their fingers at other people and start calling them discriminatory. Most people deserve the treatment they get in Japan, be it good or bad, IMHO.

[KirinMan]

Of course there are exceptions to this, and I have encountered such exceptions, but I think that people should take a good hard look at themselves before pointing their fingers at other people and start calling them discriminatory. Most people deserve the treatment they get in Japan, be it good or bad, IMHO.

Me too, and I agree. I also think that works for other countries besides Japan as well. Probably a very good thing for people to think about when they visit anywhere abroad not just Japan.

It's all relative, man.


I know, lifes too short to continually harp on the negatives, no matter where one chooses to live their life.

[gaijinalways]

Mikawa Ossan posted Most people deserve the treatment they get in Japan, be it good or bad, IMHO.

Not making a generalization here, are you?:p

So I guess some deserve better than others.:okashii:

[KirinMan]

Mikawa Ossan posted
Not making a generalization here, are you?:p


I'm sorry but I dont see how Mikawa Ossan's comment could be mistaken as being a generalization, would you mind explaining how you see it as such in more detail please.


So I guess some deserve better than others.:okashii

I think the point he was trying to make is that people get treated in response to how they treat others.

Part of the problem is that some foreigners here in Japan "think" they are treating Japanese the same as they treat people from their own countries, hence everything is ok in their actions.

BUT they fail to remember or realize that they are living in a foreign country and should at least make an attempt to adjust to the culture here. Instead of expecting the people or society to adjust to them.

[Mikawa Ossan]

We meet again! How've you been?Mikawa Ossan posted
Not making a generalization here, are you?:p A generalization? I don't know, perhaps. But I truly believe that people get treated in a certain way for a reason, and more often than not that reason resides in the self. There's a proverb in Japanese that I'm sure you know: it's darkest at the base of the lighthouse. In other words, the closer one is to the middle of a situation, the less they can see it objectively.
So I guess some deserve better than others.:okashii:People deserve treatment based on their own actions and words, and I think that's exactly what most people get.