Should all Japanese directly address foreigners in Japanese ?

[Maciamo]

In the thread Fluent Foreigners Now Accepted In Japan! (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=173253), we pointed out that many Japanese assume that a foreign-looking person cannot speak Japanese and therefore use sign language with them (as if foreigners were monkeys) even if addressed in fluent Japanese.

We discussed whether the Japanese should even ask foreigners whether they can speak Japanese (nihongo wo wakarimasu ka ?) or just assume that they do and address them in Japanese and only resort to using sign language (or English) if the person cannot understand.

MikeCash has remarked that it would be discriminatory to ask someone whether they can ask Japanese just because they do not "look" Japanese (but could have been naturalised, or born and raised in Japan, or just have stayed there for many years). I tend to agree with that.

Indeed, in Western countries, people usually don't ask any foreign-looking person if they can speak the local language, and do not start making gesture assuming they don't because they look Asian or African, but just speak to them normally as with anybody else. This is also true in rural areas where there are only Caucasians, not just in cosmopolitan areas (I have tested it with my wife in several countries).

Foreigners like me may feel that the deeply-rooted attitude of the Japanese to assume that foreigners do not speak Japanese can be quite irritaing, especially when we address them in fluent Japanese, or have been repeated times to the same shop, spoken to them in Japanese, and they still make gestures to us as if it was the first time they saw us.

My question in this poll is "how should Japanese behave when dealing with an unknown person who 'looks like' a foreigner (in a shop for instance)" ?

1) They should assume that most foreigners can't understand Japanese and use gestures
2) They should first make sure that they can speak Japanese by asking them
3) They should assume that they can speak Japanese and only use gestures if the person really doesn't understand.

[Mycernius]

I think that it is only polite to ask whether they speak Japanese or not. Normally if I am meeting a person who doesn't speak English that I don't know, whether they do or not. I think it comes down to good manners. Japan being a polite society would naturally assume that any gaijin would not speak japanese because they don't look japanese. To be polite they would make the effort to address them in English. The same does happen to me when I am out delivering around Leicester and Birmingham. There are many companies that employ Indians that do not speak English very well. I feel it is polite to ask whether they do speak English if they have had a problem understanding you. I never had any problems and have always left on good terms, even if we do not share a common language. Good manners maketh the man. Bad manners make you a ****

[quiet sunshine]

MikeCash has remarked that it would be discriminatory to ask someone whether they can ask Japanese just because they do not "look" Japanese (but could have been naturalised, or born and raised in Japan, or just have stayed there for many years). I tend to agree with that.
Oh, I'm a Chinese, but I might have the same "discriminatory" behavior if I met a foreigner. And I never knew that would be "discriminatory", :relief: got a new recognition, thanks. :-)

Indeed, in Western countries, people usually don't ask any foreign-looking person if they can speak the local language, and do not start making gesture assuming they don't because they look Asian or African, but just speak to them normally as with anybody else. This is also true in rural areas where there are only Caucasians, not just in cosmopolitan areas (I have tested it with my wife in several countries).
May be you westerner are too proud of yourself so you think foreigners went to your place should use your language? Hehe, just kidding! :p I hope someday everybody would learn Chinese then people here needn't be so crazy about English. :cool: :p

[lexico]

We discussed whether the Japanese should even ask foreigners whether they can speak Japanese (nihongo wo wakarimasu ka ?) or......just speak to them normally as with anybody else.

My question in this poll is "how should Japanese behave when dealing with an unknown person who 'looks like' a foreigner (in a shop for instance)" ?

1) They should assume that most foreigners can't understand Japanese and use gestures
2) They should first make sure that they can speak Japanese by asking them
3) They should assume that they can speak Japanese and only use gestures if the person really doesn't understand.I was a little baffled with the choices and couldn't vote because I was expecting, from reading the other related posts, that there would be an option

4) They should assume that they can speak Japanese; however if the foreigner seems to speak a little but not fluent Japanese, they should try to speak slower and with enunciation .

Reading Mycernius' post, I am also reminded of yet another possibility. For example,

5) They should assume that they can speak Japanese; however if in doubt, should address the foreigner in both English and Japanese asking "Do you speak Japanese," and decide upon a common language before moving on to converse in anything.

Another point that is tricky is that of being asked the same question three, four times in a row which can be very frustrating for the foreigner in a host country. A little bit of personal history. I had a kindergarten teacher, Mrs. Walters. We had an art class. One day, some of the kids including me did a spray painting with the brush. Obviously she was not happy. But she let everyone else go with an easy excuse. Although my answer was no different from the others' I was questioned 6-7 times the same thing, methodically; Did you draw a ball or a bird? That was traumatic experience for me.

There should be an internationally acceptable protocol for such situations. Being doubted multiple times can seriously undermine one's sense of wholeness. I just hope the poll can address some of these nerve racking issues, too.

[Maciamo]

I have adapted a bit the options to suit Lexico's ideas.

I didn't mention whether they should ask "Do you speak Japanese" in Japanese or English, but it doesn't really matter in term of concept. What's more, some Japanese (especially older people) might not even ask that simple question in English.

I have added "or speak more slowly" in addition to gestures, in case the person doesn't understand. The idea is that they first speak in normal Japanese, assuming that the foreigner can understand.

[Kama]

I haven't been in Japan, but it's more common I suppose that foreigners don't speak Japanese. Maybe when somebody looks like foreigner they don't want to trouble him with asking in a language he doesn't know. Ands I suppose it's a stereotype that foreigner = english speaking person.

[Maciamo]

Ands I suppose it's a stereotype that foreigner = english speaking person.

Yes, that's also why I thought that it didn't make much difference whether the Japanese asked "nihongo wo wakarimasu ka" or "do you speak English?". Over half of the Westerners do not speak English as their mother-tongue, and maybe 1/3 of this half cannot speak English at all.

[Elizabeth]

Yes, that's also why I thought that it didn't make much difference whether the Japanese asked "nihongo wo wakarimasu ka" or "do you speak English?". Over half of the Westerners do not speak English as their mother-tongue, and maybe 1/3 of this half cannot speak English at all.
Although I think most Japanese would use 'ga' instead of 'wo,' I've never had a shopkeeper ask if I speak English, either out of a lack of confidence in their ability to carry a conversation or because it really isn't necessary for the business at hand.

To smooth the encounter along, I usually take it on myself to make a point of speaking Japanese first which is generally sufficient for making the transaction work and finding what I came for. There has never really been an issue of not being remembered or of the clerk/owner insisting on practicing their English. :relief:

[ArmandV]

In shops and department stores, I have never had a problem in communicating with the clerks. I just generally point to what I want (I find out first if the clerk or someone else there can understand English) and the prices are generally plainly marked.

In other places, I usually have no problem finding an English-speaking Japanese person. A lot of Japanese that I've encountered have a decent, rudimentary command of English. Generally, I have not found the communication problem that a few are sensitive about.

I look at it this way, when I am in Japan, I am a guest in their country. I find it a little odd that foreigners who know Japanese, who are also guests, should get upset if they are asked if they speak Japanese. Since I don't know Japanese, maybe I am not a good person to ask.

[lexico]

In other places, I usually have no problem finding an English-speaking Japanese person. A lot of Japanese that I've encountered have a decent, rudimentary command of English. Generally, I have not found the communication problem that a few are sensitive about.

I look at it this way, when I am in Japan, I am a guest in their country. I find it a little odd that foreigners who know Japanese, who are also guests, should get upset if they are asked if they speak Japanese.Good points you make here, which I'm sure have crossed the minds of anyone in an ambiguous situation involving this language/foreign-looks/is-that-person discriminating,-patronizing,-or-making-fun-of-me sort of problem.

It can go either way, if it happens only rarely or someone is justing passing thru. But if you're there for more than a brief stay, or decided to live there as a permenent resident, you'd definitely want to be fully integrated to the host country's social setting. For example in the US, there's a label following around a second generation Asian termed 'banana.'

Depending on the individual 'banana,' he can feel deprived of an equal opportunity in US society. Although he may have been fully 'white-washed' like the inside of the yellow fruit, his 'yellow' skin may become a cause of inequal treatment. Now whether that is generally true or only so in isolated cases is hard to determine. He may have become fully Americanized inside, but has he really? Socially?

[Keiichi]

I think it's justified for the Japanese to think whatever, but I think they should mostly speak to them in Japanese at first, assuming they may know at least a little be, because that is the country's language. Just like how foreigners come to the US, many people assume everyone knows some English. It's more of the responsibility of the person that entered the country not knowing the country's language to let others know they don't know the language, and residents that do know the language should assume who they're talking to knows at least some of the language.

Keiichi

:blush:

[lexico]

1) It's more of the responsibility of the person that entered the country not knowing the country's language to let others know they don't know the language, and

2) residents that do know the language should assume who they're talking to knows at least some of the language.You have put two complicated ideas in very clear language, in one sentence!

I took the liberty to delineate the two ideas, just so that it looks like a legal document. ;-)
Nice job, Keiichi!

[Duo]

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

[Elizabeth]

You have put two complicated ideas in very clear language, in one sentence!

I took the liberty to delineate the two ideas, just so that it looks like a legal document. ;-)
Nice job, Keiichi!
Although in reality the number of short-term visitors/tourists entering Japan with have a better command of Japanese than the typical residents do of English is extremely small, so I agree it is up to the foreigner to learn a few basic phrases (I can't speak Japanese etc) but neither party should assume any business can be conducted entirely in Japanese nor should the English speaker begin with "I don't speak Japanese" or "Do you speak English?" in English. For purposes of shopping/tourist destinations/airports, there's usually at least one person on standby who is more fluent and can mediate most situations. It really isn't really necessary for one side to 'inform' the other in my view....the foreigner just begins speaking in either language and understanding is either there or not.

Most likely an conversation will be end up being an unholy combination of the two. :bluush:

[Glenn]

I think it's justified for the Japanese to think whatever, but I think they should mostly speak to them in Japanese at first, assuming they may know at least a little be, because that is the country's language. Just like how foreigners come to the US, many people assume everyone knows some English. It's more of the responsibility of the person that entered the country not knowing the country's language to let others know they don't know the language, and residents that do know the language should assume who they're talking to knows at least some of the language.

I completely agree.

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

I think you're right. I, too, was thinking about that. One thing that drives me crazy is when Japanese people say that their language is hard. Maybe it's just me, but it's all a matter of familiarity. Once you get used to the syntax you're ready to go. There are so many things about Japanese that are so much simpler than English, Spanish, or French that it was quite a refreshing change to learn Japanese. I mean, the language only has two truly irregular verbs! How difficult is that?!

I will grant them that their writing system is probably the most complicated in the world, but that's a separate issue from knowing how to speak.

It seems that on the whole Japanese people think that they have the hardest language in the world, and there's no way anyone non-Japanese could possibly learn it. I would guess, though, that this way of thinking is probably on the way out with the high numbers of foreigners in Japan who speak Japanese. But it does point at a trend of Japanese pride and a belief that no one can understand them and that they are uniquely unique.

[lexico]

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)Well, you obviously hit it on the nail for the accuser, so to speak. But at the same time it sounds a little unfair for the accused somehow.

What makes me say this is the importance I put on member Hiroyuki Nagashima's vote for the first poll option. From his many posts that I have read with keen interest, I find nothing but respect for any foreigner on this forum; actually even more than that. This to me is a cultural characteristic of Japan: to go out of one's way by using jestures for the sole purpose of preventing any embarassment on the foreigner's part.

Using gestures can be very self-humiliating for the Japanese (is it true? this also needs to be verified) ; but they do it anyway for the benefit of the foreigner who is the guest, who deserves, in the mind of each individual Japanese person, the greatest respect.

How gestures are interpreted in general, and what each gesture means in each particular context can vary widely across different cultures. I don't know the details of it; perhaps someone can fill in, but I feel that this difference should be addressed before making a sweeping judgement from a Eurocentric point of view.

[lexico]

Although in reality the number of short-term visitors/tourists entering Japan with have a better command of Japanese than the typical residents do of English is extremely small, so I agree it is up to the foreigner to learn a few basic phrases (I can't speak Japanese etc) but neither party should assume any business can be conducted entirely in Japanese nor should the English speaker begin with "I don't speak Japanese" or "Do you speak English?" in English. For purposes of shopping/tourist destinations/airports, there's usually at least one person on standby who is more fluent and can mediate most situations. It really isn't really necessary for one side to 'inform' the other in my view....the foreigner just begins speaking in either language and understanding is either there or not.

Most likely an conversation will be end up being an unholy combination of the two. :bluush:I think what you say is closer to the real situation than not. So the solution to the tension that has been addressed in thisthread (and others) could use some formulation of a universal rule (is that is possilbe) that will minimize miscommunication and personal resentment such as Maciamo has described so eloquently. Any thoughts in that line? Obviously the natural good-will, good-wll chemistry seems to have failed in this case....

And why do you say unholy ? It must be just an expression of the difficulty in defining a clear cut solution it seems....as when one reads Godzilla and Vanna White would make strange bedfellows....Can we make it holy in any way?

[Elizabeth]

This to me is a cultural characteristic of Japan: to go out of one's way by using jestures for the sole purpose of preventing any embarassment on the foreigner's part.

Using jestures can be very self-humiliating for the Japanese (is it true? this also needs to be verified) ; but they do it anyway for the benefit of the foreigner who is the guest, who deserves, in the minds of each individual Japanese person, the greatest respect.
I had never stopped to think about the implication of gestures like this because I've never had to use them as a substitute for the language. But it is an interesting idea. The second most embarrassing scenario (or offensive/ exasperating, for those Japanese that resent any attempts to learn their language, particuarly when it becomes too good) is for foreigners to struggle with their grammar and vocabulary in front of Japanese speakers more familiar with English (pronunciation is not such an issue if things can be written down or repeated). Which is why you rarely hear it initiated on their side -- most will wait to see how much the other person can understand, if anything, first.

There isn't any controvery about English or other speakers working on a few emergency words and phrases for the sake of modesty and goodwill, but at least in the beginning they will likely be stopped very quickly and asked for the English version. :blush: Even those few truly interested in practicing, unfortunately....and even very close Japanese friends can still be embarrassed at having to say 'I don't understand.'

[Mike Cash]

I look at it this way, when I am in Japan, I am a guest in their country. I find it a little odd that foreigners who know Japanese, who are also guests, should get upset if they are asked if they speak Japanese. Since I don't know Japanese, maybe I am not a good person to ask.

Have you ever considered that the people who have it happen to them often enough and over a long enough period of time for it to begin to irritate them aren't short-term tourists here?

[Duo]

Have you ever considered that the people who have it happen to them often enough and over a long enough period of time for it to begin to irritate them aren't short-term tourists here?

I'd further like to note that, here in belgium, the people don't ask foreginner lookin people whether they speak or not, for example the lady at the supermarket treats everyone the same, you dont see belgians going up to asians and asking them if they speak the language or not, and brussels is a city of 30% foreingers and bilingual. I always get people coming up to me asking me stuff in flemish, a launguage that I don't know, and even here that lanuage is such an undecided factor i haven't noticed people asking me if i spoke french or flemish before talkin to me. They assume I do. So I thi nk in Japan it should be the same.

[sgt. Pepper]

Well, Sweden has a lot of foreigners so i assume that foreign-looking people i see speak Swedish, because most of them do. The same should go for Japan i think...i don't know how many foreigners they've got...but still.

[quiet sunshine]

What's foreigner's proportion in Japan? And what's foreigner's proportion in western countries? Among those foreigners, how much is the proportion of people who can fluently speak the language of the coutry he stays?
May be westerners have the impression that all foreigners can speak their language but Japanese have the impression that most foreigners can't speak Japanese so they usually assume they can't?
You suppose Japanese' psychology in your thinking way through your experience, how do Jananese think about this issue on earth? Hm, there should be some real Japanese to participate into discussion.
Anyway, even if it would be "discriminatory" as you thought, I think it would be "friendly discriminatory".
Have you ever considered that the people who have it happen to them often enough and over a long enough period of time for it to begin to irritate them aren't short-term tourists here?
To those who first know you, they may contact with you according to their general impression about foreigners. You contact many Japanese everyday, but to many Japanese you contacted, although they might contact foreigners before, it's their first time to contact with "you".

[Maciamo]

In other places, I usually have no problem finding an English-speaking Japanese person. A lot of Japanese that I've encountered have a decent, rudimentary command of English. Generally, I have not found the communication problem that a few are sensitive about.

The problem is not for the foreigner to be understood (that's pretty easy), but the attitude of many Japanese to refuse to talk Japanese with a foreign who address them in fluent Japanese.

What's more if you only went to the touristical areas and your ony concern for communication is to buy something from a shop, how could you have encountered any problem ? But most Japanese outside the big cities, and most people over 40 or 50 do not speak a word of English. Even in central Tokyo, when going to my local dry cleaner or bento-ya, the women there (over 50) always use sign languages with me, eventough I have been going there regularily for over 3 years. When I come in, they act as if they had never seen me before and look all confused. At the bento-ya I might say with a confident air "honjitsu no makunouchi bento kudasai" (making it longer than what the Japanese usually say on purpose). My pronuciation cannot be bad, as they never ask me to repeat (except if they are visibly too nervous to notice that I'd said something). But when asked to pay, they show either write teh price down on a piece of paper or show it on the cashier's stand - rather than even saying it once before in Japanese. Everytime I say "ahh yon hyaku kyuju en desu ka ? shosho omachi kudasai (check in my wallet), hai, yon hyaku kyuju en desu." to show them that I prefer being told in Japanese. No matter if I go there 4 times in a month, sometimes with my wife with whom I speak Japanese expressedly to show them I am fluent, but these dumb women keep writing the price down on a piece of paper and showing it to me with their finger without a word. This happens even more frequently once we go to the countryside. Now I try to avoid these "blacklisted" shops, even if I have to go more far away to find another where that doesn't happen.

I look at it this way, when I am in Japan, I am a guest in their country. I find it a little odd that foreigners who know Japanese, who are also guests, should get upset if they are asked if they speak Japanese.

There is a big difference between a short-term visitor and someone living in Japan and fluent in Japanese. But as Japan is not such a touristical country, quite a few of the Westerners there are there at least for a year and so should at least understand the numbers (that can be learnt in an hour) and basic greetings. I also don't buy the typically American idea of "guest country". Once you live and work there and pay taxes, you are no more a guest than the locals. Anyway the very concept of "guest country" and "home country" (and "patriotism") don't make sense to me, but maybe it is because I grew up in so many different countries.

Anyway, thinking that someone is a tourist might excuse them for the occasional time, but not when one goes to their shop regularly for 3 years.

[Maciamo]

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

Exactly ! I mean who can't learn some basic greetings and numbers, even as toursits ? When I went to places like Thailand or Indonesia (for about 2 weeks), I learnt what I could because it's not always easy to be understood in English there. In one day I had reached the same level in Thai as most Thai tuck-tuck drivers in English. If I didn't know, I checked in my phrasebook, because I hate using sign language.

I think that most Japanese assume that foreigners cannot learn their language because its "ooh so difficult". In fact it may be one of the easiest language in the world except for the particles (which even the Japanese have problem with) and the kanji (not difficult, just a matter of time and practice). The pronuciation and many aspects of the grammar (no gender, number, declination, conjugation, few tenses...) are easier than in about any European languages. I'd say that the main difficulty of Japanese is that it is too simple and therefore confusing (homonyms, lack of grammatical nuances..).

[Maciamo]

Once you get used to the syntax you're ready to go. There are so many things about Japanese that are so much simpler than English, Spanish, or French that it was quite a refreshing change to learn Japanese. I mean, the language only has two truly irregular verbs! How difficult is that?!

I will grant them that their writing system is probably the most complicated in the world, but that's a separate issue from knowing how to speak.

Completely agree with you !

It seems that on the whole Japanese people think that they have the hardest language in the world, and there's no way anyone non-Japanese could possibly learn it. I would guess, though, that this way of thinking is probably on the way out with the high numbers of foreigners in Japan who speak Japanese. But it does point at a trend of Japanese pride and a belief that no one can understand them and that they are uniquely unique.

I couldn't have said it better. :cool: In my opinion and experiene, French is one of the most difficult languages in the world (pronuciation, twisted grammar, very irregular spelling, inflexibility, tendecy of the French to prefer technical words even in informal situations, etc.) but the French take the opposite attitude of the Japanese. Although they know that theur language is ver difficult (esp. for beginners, who can't even hope having an easy sentence right), they expect foreigners in France to at least try to learn it.

It usually goes so far that even when they can speak English or another language in which they are addressed, they often pretend not to undestand or just answer in French. In fact, the French usually do more efforts to learn the basics of the local language (and culture) of the country they are visiting (especially in places where the locals aren't supposed to know French) than many other people, and they expect people visiting France to do the same, wherever they come from, and no matter how long they stay. That's why they will address any foreigner in French. If the foreigner cannot understand most Frencg will prefer speaking more slowly, or using simpler words, rather than switching to another language that they can speak.

The reason hidden in a typical French mind is that they should encourage foreigners to learn their language, rather than the opposite. However, the Japanese seem to do all they can to discourage foreigners to speak their language, even refusing to answer them in Japanese when addressed in Japanese.

Another interesting Japanese reaction is to laugh when they see that a foreigner can understand what they are saying between them or replies in Japanese to a question asked in (broken) English. They laugh because they feel uncomfortable with the idea of a foreigner being able to speak their language, especially if the foreigner speaks better Japanese than they can speak English.

[quiet sunshine]

Even in central Tokyo, when going to my local dry cleaner or bento-ya, the women there (over 50) always use sign languages with me, eventough I have been going there regularily for over 3 years. When I come in, they act as if they had never seen me before and look all confused. At the bento-ya I might say with a confident air "honjitsu no makunouchi bento kudasai" (making it longer than what the Japanese usually say on purpose). My pronuciation cannot be bad, as they never ask me to repeat (except if they are visibly too nervous to notice that I'd said something). But when asked to pay, they show either write teh price down on a piece of paper or show it on the cashier's stand - rather than even saying it once before in Japanese. Everytime I say "ahh yon hyaku kyuju en desu ka ? shosho omachi kudasai (check in my wallet), hai, yon hyaku kyuju en desu." to show them that I prefer being told in Japanese. No matter if I go there 4 times in a month, sometimes with my wife with whom I speak Japanese expressedly to show them I am fluent, but these dumb women keep writing the price down on a piece of paper and showing it to me with their finger without a word. This happens even more frequently once we go to the countryside. Now I try to avoid these "blacklisted" shops, even if I have to go more far away to find another where that doesn't happen.

Ha, now I'm curious too! Why they discarded the easiest way--talking with you, since you can speak Japanese fluently? :? Did you ever ask them directly why they don't want to talk with you in Japanese?

[Maciamo]

Using gestures can be very self-humiliating for the Japanese (is it true? this also needs to be verified) ; but they do it anyway for the benefit of the foreigner who is the guest, who deserves, in the mind of each individual Japanese person, the greatest respect.

I don't buy that. See my reply about the dry cleaning and bento-ya above. Why would they insist on not speaking to me, when they know I can speak and understand Japanese ?

I think the real reason is that the Japanese are uncomfortable with the idea that foreigners can learn their language so quickly, while they were taught (by "the group") that Japanese was so unique, difficult and superior, and that only the superiorly intelligent Japanese race could master such the language of the kami. They might not know it consciously, but deep inside them it is what motivates them to act as described in this whole thread.

The Japanese only realised that their system, culture and language was not superior to others after the burst of the Bubble in 1990. They only slowly start realising that their education system sucks, that they are mostly unique for not being able to learn foreign languages as well as people in Europe, India or (to their utter embarassment) in neighbouring Korea. There is now a new national complex of Japan as a (relative) failure. Politicians are only more corrupted than in Japan in third-world countries, the economy has been going down for 15 years (which developed country can boast half as much ?) and the vast majority of the Japanese are so completely ignorant of the rest of the world that they would still think that Japan is unique for having 4 seasons or sending New Year greeting cards ( :okashii: ).

[Maciamo]

I'd further like to note that, here in belgium, the people don't ask foreginner lookin people whether they speak or not, for example the lady at the supermarket treats everyone the same, you dont see belgians going up to asians and asking them if they speak the language or not, and brussels is a city of 30% foreingers and bilingual. I always get people coming up to me asking me stuff in flemish, a launguage that I don't know, and even here that lanuage is such an undecided factor i haven't noticed people asking me if i spoke french or flemish before talkin to me. They assume I do. So I thi nk in Japan it should be the same.

Maybe you should explain to our non-European members that Brussels is a city where both French and Dutch are official languages, and to make things more confusing it is in the Dutch-speaking area of the country but 80% of the people speak French, and there is no way to know who speaks which (anyway most locals are bilingual French-Dutch and usually also speak English or another language). But even in remote, non-touristical villages of Belgium, the woman at the supermarket will not ask an Asian if they speak the language.

[Maciamo]

Did you ever asked them directly why they don't want to talk with you in Japanese?

No, and it's not an easy thing to ask. I could also just tell them that they should speak Japanese as I understand, but it seems so obvious... I asked my wife, and she doesn't know why this happens. She just says "well you are a foreigner, so they don't expect you to speak Japanese." If even her, who has lived abraod and with whom I usually only speak Japanese, says that, I think it's jut too ingrained in the Japanese mindset to change.

[Maciamo]

What's foreigner's proportion in Japan? And what's foreigner's proportion in western countries? Among those foreigners, how much is the proportion of people who can fluently speak the language of the coutry he stays?

There are about 2 million registered foreigners (i.e. residents) in Japan, most of whom are Japan-born Korean and Chinese and speak so well Japanese that the Japanese couldn't tell they are not Japanese (because they don't look foreign). There are only about 120,000 Western residents in Japan (0,1% of the population), but most of them can speak at least some Japanese. Those who can't are mostly tourists, and stay in touristical areas (you know around temples, Tokyo tower, shops in Ginza and Shibuya, etc.).

The Japanese think that Koreans and Chinese living in Japan also can't speak Japanese !

The other day I saw a TV programme about the Korean community in Japan. Those Koreans have lived all or most of their lives in Japan, and speak perfect Japanese. But when the Japanese TV interviewer came with the camera into the Korean shop in Tokyo, the first thing they said upon hearing "konnichiwa" from the Korean shopowner, was "oooh, nihongo jouzu desu ne !" (or you Japanese is so good). Not something one should say to a permanent resident who may have been born and raised in Japan. This certainly proves that the Japanese think that any foreigners (not just Westerners) are unable to learn their "unique and difficult" language. It's very offensive, and that's just daily occurence on Japanese TV.

Westerners coming to Japan usually learn Japanese

Keep in mind that most Westerners living in Japan or just visiting are people interested in Japan (the only exception being the expats sent there by their company, or business people on short visits and usually staying in expensive hotels and having little contact with the locals, or US soldiers, which I didn't count in the 120,000 Western residents). Japan is far from Western countries, it's an expensive place to travel, and the only worthwhile beaches are limited to Okinawa (not really Japan). What's more, most Japanese products can be purchased at similar price in Western countries, so shopping is not even a reason to come to Japan (except for some "otaku" maybe).

So Westerners usually come here for the culture (traditional or modern) or for the people (including boy/girlfriend), which both require them to learn the language. Therefore, no matter whether they are tourists or residents, most Westerners should at least speak some Japanese (depending on how long they have been there and their individual language skills).

[ArmandV]

Have you ever considered that the people who have it happen to them often enough and over a long enough period of time for it to begin to irritate them aren't short-term tourists here?

Yes, and it really shouldn't make any difference. Whether or not a person is a short-termer or long-termer in Japan, the fact is that he/she is still really a guest in their country and one has to expect things like this. To me, it is silly to get bent out of shape and let it irritate them.

I used to have breakfast at Denny's in Shibuya and every morning the hostess behind the cash register always spoke to me in Japanese. I wasn't offended (especially since she was a cutie with a cute voice).

Maybe people should suck it up and grin and bear it? (Just playing devil's advocate here, folks.)

[Maciamo]

I used to have breakfast at Denny's in Shibuya and every morning the hostess behind the cash register always spoke to me in Japanese. I wasn't offended (especially since she was a cutie with a cute voice).


You really seem to get it all the wrong way round ! The problem is that the Japanese tend too make too much fuss when dealing with foreigners (gestures + "sorry no speak english" when we talk to them in Japanese) instead of just talking normally as we Japanese(-looking) customers.

Another annoying thing we haven't mentioned yet is that when a Western-looking and a Japanese-looking person person are together, the Japanese you are talking to will always automatically turn toward the Japanese-looking person. If I am with my wife, no matter if I ask information about trains, ask for a receipt at the restaurant, check-in at the airport, or buy tickets at the cinema, the Japanese staff always answer my question back to my wife, just ignoring me. That is very irritating when one wants to practice one's Japanese.

But to show how stupid this Japanese mania really is, let me take these two cases. When I am with a Korean friend of mine, no matter whether we pay the bill at the restaurant or ask information in a department store, the Japanese always turn to my friend, who doesn't speak better Japanese than me (and actually asked me to ask the staff for this reason). But I also have a Canadian friend of Chinese origin, who doesn't speak much Japanese. Whenever we go somewhere in Tokyo, the Japanese always turn to him, while I am the one addressing them, because they think he is Japanese, while I am visibly not. I just hate the way Japanese are so disrespectful not to even answer to the person who is talking to them and avoiding them on purpose just because they don't "look" Japanese. Is there any more disrespectful nation on earth in this regard ?

[Keiichi]

Wow, this is an interesting point of view of the matter. Especially since I probably can never relate to the situation (since I look Japanese).
So generally, it all comes down to looks, and whether it looks like you can speak Japanese, or not...

Keiichi

:blush:

[ArmandV]

You really seem to get it all the wrong way round !

Huh? This sentence does not make sense. Are you always this way to someone who has a different point of view?


I just hate the way Japanese are so disrespectful not to even answer to the person who is talking to them and avoiding them on purpose just because they don't "look" Japanese. Is there any more disrespectful nation on earth in this regard ?

Okay, since you put it that way, I can see your annoyance.

[Mike Cash]

And you can see how 5, 10, 20+ years of it can get a little old.

[DoctorP]

Another annoying thing we haven't mentioned yet is that when a Western-looking and a Japanese-looking person person are together, the Japanese you are talking to will always automatically turn toward the Japanese-looking person. If I am with my wife, no matter if I ask information about trains, ask for a receipt at the restaurant, check-in at the airport, or buy tickets at the cinema, the Japanese staff always answer my question back to my wife, just ignoring me. That is very irritating when one wants to practice one's Japanese.


I've been reading this thread and holding back my response until now...I originally thought that you were blowing this out of proportion, but now I am unsure. I can say that I haven't had the same problems that you describe. On the contrary, I find that people are more willing to speak to me (the man) vice my wife. (and I will acknowledge that my Japanese is probably at a much lower level than yours!)

I will comment on one thing that you mentioned. Japanese responding to you in English instead of Japanese....maybe they want to practice as well?? Many of my friends will do this to me...which results in me speaking Japanese and them speaking English (which can make a very confusing conversation!) Also, sometimes I find myself interupting my wife's friends on the phone when they are searching for words in English, I cut them off in Japanese answering their question before it is even asked. Just another example of people wanting to practice on each other.

As for the dry cleaners and bento shop...maybe by using longer sentences (as you mentioned that you do sometimes) you are actually confusing them more? Some of these people are not the most educated themselves and would feel more comfortable using slang or shorter statements? (just a thought)

I only lived in Ibaragi for a short period, but I did not run in to the same problems as you and I was living in the countryside, so please understand that I am only commenting on my own experiences...I can not honestly comment on what you are experiencing since I am not there :?

[Pachipro]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo
From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)
Well, you obviously hit it on the nail for the accuser, so to speak. But at the same time it sounds a little unfair for the accused somehow.

What makes me say this is the importance I put on member Hiroyuki Nagashima's vote for the first poll option. From his many posts that I have read with keen interest, I find nothing but respect for any foreigner on this forum; actually even more than that. This to me is a cultural characteristic of Japan: to go out of one's way by using jestures for the sole purpose of preventing any embarassment on the foreigner's part.
Very well said lexico. I also find it very interesting that members Hiroyuki Nagashima and Yellow Emperor both selected Option 1 in their answers. I can't speak for Yellow Emperor, but we know that Mr. Nagashima is a Japanese whose English is not perfect, but uses translation software to offer his advise on these boards. I commend him on his efforts. However it would be nice to have his input on this topic as he selected a choice that most fluent residents abhor and sparked debate on this subject.

I've never had a shopkeeper ask if I speak English, either out of a lack of confidence in their ability to carry a conversation or because it really isn't necessary for the business at hand.

To smooth the encounter along, I usually take it on myself to make a point of speaking Japanese first which is generally sufficient for making the transaction work and finding what I came for. There has never really been an issue of not being remembered or of the clerk/owner insisting on practicing their English.
I have always had the same experience. I always walk into a place with confidence and speak Japanese first. If I can't find what I'm looking for I always ask and am treated with the same courtesy and respect accorded any Japanese customer. Maybe the Japanese sense this by my demeanor. I don't know.

[Pachipro]

Another annoying thing we haven't mentioned yet is that when a Western-looking and a Japanese-looking person person are together, the Japanese you are talking to will always automatically turn toward the Japanese-looking person. If I am with my wife, no matter if I ask information about trains, ask for a receipt at the restaurant, check-in at the airport, or buy tickets at the cinema, the Japanese staff always answer my question back to my wife, just ignoring me. That is very irritating when one wants to practice one's Japanese.
This is true as the same thing occassionally happens when I am out with my Japanese wife or Japanese friends. They will usually address them instead of me when it is I who am speaking in Japanese. My wife and I like to have fun with this aspect of the culture and have overcome this dilemma in two ways.

1. When they address her instead of me when it is I who am speaking, she will turn to them and say in forceful Japanese (unusual for a woman) something like, "Why are you asking me? Is his Japanese not good enough to understand? Did you not hear him? Please don't be disrespectful to my husband!" :evil:

They will usually be quite taken aback at this and become embarrassed. :shock: They will usually bow and apologize and start addressing me. :gomen:

2. This one can be alot of fun. If they address her while ignoring me, my wife will start speaking English which will throw them for a loop! I will then say to the person, in Japanese, that my wife is not Japanese, but was born in America and cannot speak Japanese. You can just imagine the look of confusion and embarrassment on their faces when a foreigner is speaking Japanese and the Japanese-looking person is speaking English. :cool: From that moment on, especially in a restaurant, it is I who they will address.

We usually decide before going out or into a place what situation we will use before hand so we will both be prepared to act it out. Maybe you and your wife should try these scenarios.

Maybe your wife could say something similar to number 1 above while adding "He's been here 4 times this month and you still can't underestand him? Is his Japanese that bad or do you always discriminate against foreigners who can speak Japanese?" or "Is something wrong with your hearing? Can you not see that my husband is speaking Japanese?" Or something to that effect. I don't know what will work for you, but we have alot of fun and laughs with it rather than get irate over this aspect of their culture.

This may not be unique to Japan, but may be an aspect of Asian culture in general, I don't know. As an example, some time ago my wife and I went out to a Korean restaurant here in the states for some great Korean barbeque. The waitress being Korean started addressing my wife in Korean. When my wife began speaking English, she apologized and began addressing me. So even here, in the states, they addressed the Asian looking person assuming she was Korean while ignoring the Caucasian and this was in MY OWN COUNTRY! It didn't bother me in the least. We just had a laugh over it and enjoyed a great meal. :gohan:

[quiet sunshine]

2. This one can be alot of fun. If they address her while ignoring me, my wife will start speaking English which will throw them for a loop! I will then say to the person, in Japanese, that my wife is not Japanese, but was born in America and cannot speak Japanese. You can just imagine the look of confusion and embarrassment on their faces when a foreigner is speaking Japanese and the Japanese-looking person is speaking English. :cool:
Hahahaha!That's so funny! great originality! I can imagine their expressions, poor Japanese!:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Maciamo]

Maybe your wife could say something similar to number 1 above while adding "He's been here 4 times this month and you still can't underestand him? Is his Japanese that bad or do you always discriminate against foreigners who can speak Japanese?" or "Is something wrong with your hearing? Can you not see that my husband is speaking Japanese?" Or something to that effect. I don't know what will work for you, but we have alot of fun and laughs with it rather than get irate over this aspect of their culture.

I'd like to try, but my wife is not at all the person to reply to people like that (too polite and soft-spoken). Just the fact that I mention the problem at home tend to make her uncomfortable. Her English is probably not good enough to try answering in English either. They will know immediately that she is faking. :relief:

This may not be unique to Japan, but may be an aspect of Asian culture in general, I don't know. As an example, some time ago my wife and I went out to a Korean restaurant here in the states for some great Korean barbeque. The waitress being Korean started addressing my wife in Korean. When my wife began speaking English, she apologized and began addressing me. So even here, in the states, they addressed the Asian looking person assuming she was Korean while ignoring the Caucasian and this was in MY OWN COUNTRY!

I have never had this problem in Chinese or Korean restaurants outside Japan. Even when we went to Korea, the locals seemed to understand that my wife was Japanese. Maybe that is a way of dressing or her face that looks more typically Japanese. She also had light brown eyes, which is extremely rare for East Asians.

[Maciamo]

Huh? This sentence does not make sense. Are you always this way to someone who has a different point of view?


You said "I used to have breakfast at Denny's in Shibuya and every morning the hostess behind the cash register always spoke to me in Japanese, I wasn't offended (especially since she was a cutie with a cute voice).
".

What we have been discussing since the beginning of this thread is not that it is offending for a Japanese to address a foreigner in Japanese, but at he contrary, not to, assuming that they are too stupid to understand.

So it's not that I disagree with you, but I can't understand the point of this remark.

[Maciamo]

I also find it very interesting that members Hiroyuki Nagashima and Yellow Emperor both selected Option 1 in their answers. I can't speak for Yellow Emperor, but we know that Mr. Nagashima is a Japanese...

Yellow Emperor seems to be from Taiwan.

[ArmandV]

You said "I used to have breakfast at Denny's in Shibuya and every morning the hostess behind the cash register always spoke to me in Japanese, I wasn't offended (especially since she was a cutie with a cute voice).
".

What we have been discussing since the beginning of this thread is not that it is offending for a Japanese to address a foreigner in Japanese, but at he contrary, not to, assuming that they are too stupid to understand.

So it's not that I disagree with you, but I can't understand the point of this remark.

I think there was some confusion over the point of this thread. Other posters here have also indicated as such. Then you mentioned the manner of the Japanese persons ignoring you and talking to your wife instead. That cleared things up. I agree, it is thoughtless at least and just plain rude at worst.

As for the hostess, I had been in the restaurant several days straight and presented my money to the same hostess. Yet she still addressed me in Japanese even though I've indicated to her that I don't speak Japanese.

[Maciamo]

Yet she still addressed me in Japanese even though I've indicated to her that I don't speak Japanese.

Well, she could have the excuse of not being able to speak English or another language. However, when greeted with strange gestures, and the gestures continue when we start speaking Japanese, their only excuse would be to be mute, and in the cases I experienced they weren't as they talked to other customers.

[Lina Inverse]

I think it would be the best if they addressed foreigners normally in Japanese. I wouldn't be the least offended if someone asked if I could speak Japanese.
However, I would be certainly offended if someone addressed me with gestures :auch:
Guess the best thing to do in such a situation is to answer "わかりません。　日本語を話すください。" and repeat that until they start speaking Japanese with you :D

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

ここの議題について私は、よく理解していなかったよう に思います。
翻訳ソフトを使った結果下記のように翻訳されました。
「どのように、日本語は外国人を扱わなければならない か？ 」
「1.彼らは、彼らには日本語がわかることができなくて 、ジェスチャーを使うことができないと仮定しなければならない。」
「2.彼らは、彼らが日本語（日本語では英語では）を話 すことができるかどうか、最初に彼らに尋ねなければな らない。」
「3.人がわからないならば、彼らは日本語で彼らに講演 しなければならないか、ジェスチャーを使うだけであるか、よりゆっくり話す。」

選択1について。
私は、英語を正しく話す自信がありませんので
自分が外国人の立場で考えたとき、英語で話しかけられ たら困ります。
また、日本のジェスチャーと海外のジェスチャーはいくつか違うと聞いています。

例えば、「ごめんなさい」や「ありがとう」を表すジェ スチャーは、両手をあわせて
拝みます。
また、「こっちに来て」は手のひらを下にして手を振り ますが、海外では「あっちに行け」となる
らしい・・です。
人の前を横切るとき、腰を屈めて片手を顔の前にだして 拝む形をとるのは日本独特だとも
聞いています。

選択２について。
「日本語が話せなければ、相手にしない」といっている ようなものなので
相手に対してあまりにも失礼です。

選択３は
翻訳の意味が不明だったので除外しました。

東京で道を聞かれたときは、片言の英語と電子手帳の英 語辞書で対応していました。


もし、議題の意味が違っていましたらご指摘ください。
英語に翻訳する自信が無いので、日本語で記載します。

[lexico]

Thank you for posting that, Hiroyuki Nagashima-san.
It helps to understand your vote, and possibly other things.
I don't speak Japanese, but this is what Infoseek (http://honyakuinfoseek.infoseek.co.jp/amitext/indexUTF8.jsp) gave in machine translation.
Is the translation correct?
The title seems to be quite opposite from what I read.
The translation says not as "How should the Japanese approach foreigners," but "How are the Japanese approaching foreigners."
The original question in English, "How should the Japanese deal with foreigners" seems to have been mistranslated into Japanese.I did not understand well about the subject for discussion here -- as -- I consider.
As a result of using translation software, it was translated as follows.

"How is Japanese which must treat a foreigner? "

"1. -- them -- them -- Japanese -- it cannot understand -- You have to assume that gesture cannot be used.

(2.) them -- Japanese (Japanese -- English) -- talk it does not ask [ whether すこと is made and or not ] them first -- if ら -- there is nothing "

"3. -- people do not understand -- if it becomes -- them -- Japanese -- them -- lecture It must carry out, gesture is only used, or it talks more slowly. "

About selection 1 Since I did not have the confidence which speaks English correctly, when he thinks in a foreigner's position, I am spoken to in English. たら困ります.

Moreover, it is heard that some overseas gesture differs from gesture of Japan.

For example, "I'm sorry" and JIE showing "thank you" SUCHA unites and worships both hands.

moreover, "-- here -- coming -- " -- a palm -- the bottom -- carrying out -- a hand -- shaking -- seemingly, ます will become "go there" overseas -- it is ..

When crossing a people front, the waist is bent and one hand is taken out before a face.

It is heard that it is peculiar to Japan to take the form to worship.

About selection 2 It has said, "It is not made a partner if Japanese cannot be spoken".

Since like, it is too impolite to a partner.

Since the meaning of translation was unknown, selection 3 was excepted. the time of being asked to a way in Tokyo -- English of babble, and the U.K. of an electronic notebook It corresponded in the word dictionary.

Please point out, if the meaning of a subject for discussion is different.

Since there is no confidence translated into English, it indicates in Japanese.

[Duo]

ここの議題について私は、よく理解していなかったよう に思います。
翻訳ソフトを使った結果下記のように翻訳されました。
「どのように、日本語は外国人を扱わなければならない か？ 」
「1.彼らは、彼らには日本語がわかることができなくて 、ジェスチャーを使うことができないと仮定しなければならない。」
「2.彼らは、彼らが日本語（日本語では英語では）を話 すことができるかどうか、最初に彼らに尋ねなければな らない。」
「3.人がわからないならば、彼らは日本語で彼らに講演 しなければならないか、ジェスチャーを使うだけであるか、よりゆっくり話す。」

選択1について。
私は、英語を正しく話す自信がありませんので
自分が外国人の立場で考えたとき、英語で話しかけられ たら困ります。
また、日本のジェスチャーと海外のジェスチャーはいくつか違うと聞いています。

例えば、「ごめんなさい」や「ありがとう」を表すジェ スチャーは、両手をあわせて
拝みます。
また、「こっちに来て」は手のひらを下にして手を振り ますが、海外では「あっちに行け」となる
らしい・・です。
人の前を横切るとき、腰を屈めて片手を顔の前にだして 拝む形をとるのは日本独特だとも
聞いています。

選択２について。
「日本語が話せなければ、相手にしない」といっている ようなものなので
相手に対してあまりにも失礼です。

選択３は
翻訳の意味が不明だったので除外しました。

東京で道を聞かれたときは、片言の英語と電子手帳の英 語辞書で対応していました。


もし、議題の意味が違っていましたらご指摘ください。
英語に翻訳する自信が無いので、日本語で記載します。

lexico suggested that i had misunderstood the purpose of this post, i however don't know what to make of it and why it is in japanese and not english, but I guess i'll eat my words and just say sorry if I misunderstood, and thanks to lexico for clearing things up to me, although i'm still confused. :?

[lexico]

For Duo: From the other posts, Mr. Horoyuki Nagashima is a Japanese software engineer who has been participating on the forum discussions offering help in any Japanese matters with what he knows as a Japanese. But feeling uncomfortable with his English, uses translation software to offer advice and information. You can see for yourself some of his posts here Horoyuki Nagashima (http://www.jref.com/forum/member.php?find=lastposter&f=28).

*a little history: There were several remarks about his vote in this thread which was a little surprising at first. I think he understood that situation and wanted to make sure he did not misunderstand the question. He posted how he perceived the question in Japanese which he believed the foreign speakers of Japanese could verify for him.*

[Glenn]

i however don't know what to make of it and why it is in japanese and not english...

The answer is this:

私は、英語を正しく話す自信がありませんので...
英語に翻訳する自信が無いので、日本語で記載します。

The first sentence means "since I'm not confindent that I can speak English correctly..." and the second one is "I don't have the confidence to translate this into English, so I wrote in Japanese."

[Glenn]

永島さん、その三つの選択肢を和訳してみます。

選択一：
They should assume that they can't understand Japanese and use gestures
日本人は外国人が日本語が分からないと仮定し、ジェス チャーを使うべきだ。

選択二：
They should first ask them whether they can speak Japanese (either in Japanese or in English)
日本人は最初から外国人に「日本語が分かりますか」（ 英語でも日本語でもいい）と尋ねべきだ。

選択三：
They should address them in Japanese and only use gestures or speak more slowly if the person doesn't understand
日本人は外国人に日本語で話すべきで、その外国人が分 からない場合だけにジェスチャーを使ったりもっとゆっくり話したりすべきだ。

これで分かるといいですね。もし私の和訳は足りなかっ たら、誰かがもっと適当な和訳をしてください。

[Edit] It just hit me that I should explain what just happened here. :relief: The above is my attempt at translating the poll options for Hiroyuki Nagashima, because the translation software didn't do such a good job. I didn't mean to leave anyone out; sorry to those who may have felt that way. :sorry:

[SkippyDaStudent85]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.

I know that Americans, in general, tend to have this image of being the ignorant citizens who go around asking non-"American" appearing persons whether or not they can speak English, which can come off easily as an insult. However, (assuming the person is not trying to be a jerk) it is just a matter of clarifying the possible level of communication between the persons involved.

I don't thing that it is a matter of insult, but finding out a vital piece of information for accurate and respectful communication.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

"Lexico san" "Glenn san"　Arigatou gozai mashita .
I'm sorry to have troubled you. :sorry:
I feel a feeling of resistance to "choice 2".
I seem to talk with a person inferior to oneself.
It is rude for a stranger. :?
With the foreigner who worked together in an office, I talked as common language by broken English and computer language. :relief:

My curiosity seems to have interrupted you.
I'm sorry. :sorry:

[Elizabeth]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.

I know that Americans, in general, tend to have this image of being the ignorant citizens who go around asking non-"American" appearing persons whether or not they can speak English, which can come off easily as an insult. However, (assuming the person is not trying to be a jerk) it is just a matter of clarifying the possible level of communication between the persons involved.

I don't thing that it is a matter of insult, but finding out a vital piece of information for accurate and respectful communication.
Because it has all the hallmarks of politeness to most Americans, asking first may seem to be the rational compromise. The practical problem is imagining a real-life situation where it would actually be very useful, unless your Japanese partner thinks they may have just enough English to be of help or they assume the foreigner knows more than they are attempting, out of fear or discomfort....If you are just talking about receiving change or asking for a sack at a convenient store, I don't think most people have a problem with gestures for those sorts of minor transactions.

[akeenan]

it annoys me when a japanese person expects you cant speak japanese and then continues to speak english when you answer in japanese... sometimes with some people its like a showdown of languages .

[lexico]

No trouble at all, Hiroyuki Nagashima-san! :-)
Thanks for participating, actually.
Your participation is probably the most important one we have.
With the foreigner who worked together in an office, I talked as common language by broken English and computer language. :relief:I don't know the actual details, so this is my impression only.
Please correct me if I guessed wrong.
I am assuming that you speak Japanese as you mother tongue, and the foreigner is proficient in English.

1. As professionals, you and your foreign coworker needed to communicate.
2. When deciding upon a common language, you had two choices.
3. The two choices were Japanese and English.
4. You and the foreigner weighed both languages by comparing your English proficiency and the foreigner's Japanese proficiency.
5. It turned out that your English was better than the foreigner's Japanese.
6. The two of you agreed to speak English rather than Japanese because it would help work proceed more efficiently.

Did I guess correctly?
I feel a feeling of resistance to "choice 2".
I seem to talk with a person inferior to oneself.
It is rude for a stranger. :?I would like to ask you these questions.
It may be common knowledge for the Japanese, but foreigners can only guess.
If you can give your ideas, then it will help greatly to understand and hopefully solve the issue raised by this poll.

People of all cultures have their own way of dealing with guests.
I understand that the Japanese are also educated to be polite to guests.
In your opinion, how is the Japanese way of hopitality different from other countries' hospitality?
Since this can be a broad topic, let us concern ourselves with only these two simple situations.

"When the guest/stranger is Japanese."
1. Is using simple, polite gesture, together with polite words, considered acceptable in Japanese culture in general?

"A Japanese person meets a foreigner (US citizen, American, European, African, Asian, Australian) as total stangers on the street or in a shop."
2. What is the standard way for a Japanese person to greet the stranger who looks like a foreigner?
What are the first things to say/do to the foreigner?

3. Do many Japanese think that speaking Japanese to a foreigner is impolite?

4. Do many Japanese think that asking a foreigner's Japanese ability is rude?

5. Is it emabrassing for a Japanese to say, "I cannot speak English."

6. Do many Japanese think that a foreigner will be embarassed to say, "I cannot speak Japanese" ?

7. Do many Japanese wish to practice English with an English speaking person?

8. Do many Japanese think that the Japanese language is unique, and difficult to learn for Japanese themselves? (speech, reading, writing, etc.)

9. Do many Japanese think that a foreigner (Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian,) speaking Japanese is bad, unusual, surprising, suspicious, or intimidating?

10. Is complementing on someone's skill in anything (including language) considered okay when you it many times?

11. Is complementing someone many times ever considered rude or sarcastic?

I'm sorry I'm asking you so many questions. :sorry:
I hope you can answer some questions, even just a few.
I hope to understand Japanese culture better with your answers. :relief:

EDIT: I failed to include one important question.

12. Do many Japanese know that many foreigners speak at least some Japanese, and would very much like to practice their Japanese ?

These foreigners have come a long way to learn more about Japan including its language. Some of them can get very upset when Japanese hospitality takes away that chance (very expensive, too) by speaking English with a Japanese person. (Sorry to say this. But this seems to be the main motivation of this topic.) :relief:

[Elizabeth]

it annoys me when a japanese person expects you cant speak japanese and then continues to speak english when you answer in japanese... sometimes with some people its like a showdown of languages .
That irritates me as well....if I have enough confidence I just continue in Japanese and if the native speaker is pretending not to understand the simplest phrases I put on my best sarcastic tone and querry them -- what about this can possibly be so confusing ? hopefully all without deliberately leaving them feeling too stupid in their own language. :D

[lexico]

what about this can possibly be so confusing ? hopefully all without deliberately making them feel too stupid in their own language. :DThe little humor with which you exposed the imposter's little lie sounds quite effective and without malice; what an intelligent and honorable solution of face saving and still getting what you want!

[Mike Cash]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.


No, it isn't the most logical thing to do. Think about it a bit.

[lexico]

No, it isn't the most logical thing to do. Think about it a bit.I've never lived in Japan, but learned how to see this fine point since I got here.

[epigene]

Hello, everyone!

I was thinking of digesting what is being discussed here first before ever posting, but it's hard for me to follow everything (lack of time and my low-vision problem). So, here goes:

I chose #2 immediately, just thinking what I would do meeting a stranger who externally appears to be foreign, in some street in downtown Tokyo.

I have lived most of my life in Japan and in living where I live (western Tokyo) and working at home, I almost never meet Westerners. Only those I meet are people I know through work (an environment where everyone is expected to be able to speak at least Japanese and English--so I speak either language and no one minds) and tourists with their eyes glued to maps, standing in the streets of Shinjuku. (I really wonder where I can meet people like Maciamo-san and Pachipro-san!!)

I grew up seeing Americans (GIs) who never learned anything more than a few phrases in Japanese after several years or even decades of living in Japan and Japanese so hung up on their inferiority of not being able to speak English. When I saw Westerners speaking Japanese on TV (like Jeff Berkland (spelling??) and Thane Camus), I was in awe. I'm really happy to see the growing number of Japanese-speaking foreigners but never had the opportunity to meet them.

Well, I made acquaintance in the past with some married to Japanese, but their Japanese capabilities were limited. So, I ended up speaking English to avoid misunderstandings. I also felt that they would feel their limitations in communicating in Japanese and become embarrassed.

So, my choice is based on my past experiences. (Sorry for the disorganized ramblings.)

[epigene]

This is interesting, so I'll give my own answers, too.
"When the guest/stranger is Japanese."
1. Is using simple, polite gesture, together with polite words, considered acceptable in Japanese culture in general?
Depends on what gestures you're talking about. :blush:

"A Japanese person meets a foreigner (US citizen, American, European, African, Asian, Australian) as total stangers on the street or in a shop."
2. What is the standard way for a Japanese person to greet the stranger who looks like a foreigner?
What are the first things to say/do to the foreigner?
I don't know what's standard, but a short greeting in Japanese followed by observation of reaction of the foreign person. Personally, I think reaction on the part of the Japanese depends on how the person feels about his/her English language ability. Most people have no confidence and react strangely, even from my point of view--such as speaking in Japanese only, leaving the location altogether to seek help, etc. I think the people living in the "shitamachi" area are more tolerant and confident of themselves, regardless of English skill level, and will speak to a foreigner in Japanese regardless of whether the person understands them or not.

3. Do many Japanese think that speaking Japanese to a foreigner is impolite?
No. The need to speak English to a foreign-looking person is imprinted in the minds of the Japanese through education, with teachers imparting this belief.

4. Do many Japanese think that asking a foreigner's Japanese ability is rude?
Depends on how you met the person, I guess.

5. Is it emabrassing for a Japanese to say, "I cannot speak English."
Yes, embarrassing, but they do it to escape what they think is humiliation of not being able to speak English.

6. Do many Japanese think that a foreigner will be embarassed to say, "I cannot speak Japanese" ?
No, I think the number of Japanese-speaking foreigners is not large enough for the Japanese in general to think that there are in fact foreigners who speak Japanese well.

7. Do many Japanese wish to practice English with an English speaking person?
Yes, VERY, VERY MUCH!!

8. Do many Japanese think that the Japanese language is unique, and difficult to learn for Japanese themselves? (speech, reading, writing, etc.)
Many say so, but that claim is for self-justification (the other side of not being able to speak English) and theories on linguistic uniqueness propounded in the past.

9. Do many Japanese think that a foreigner (Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian,) speaking Japanese is bad, unusual, surprising, suspicious, or intimidating?
Yes, it's still unusual and surprising.

10. Is complementing on someone's skill in anything (including language) considered okay when you it many times?
Once is enough! But, people (especially the elderly) who are really impressed would say it many tiimes.

11. Is complementing someone many times ever considered rude or sarcastic?
Depends on the situation, as mentioned in #10. I think most don't have malicious intentions--only sense of inferiority, backwardness, and lack of awareness that Westerners, especially Europeans, have toward the cultures and languages around the world.

Maybe I'm not typically Japanese, but I think I speak for many Japanese (at least the ones I know).

[Glenn]

Maybe I'm not typically Japanese, but I think I speak for many Japanese (at least the ones I know).

I think this is funny, because I thought the same thing of myself (replace "Japanese" with "American") after reading Cultural Divide between US and Europe (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14937), and a few other threads similar to that one. Maybe none of us here on this forum are typical any nationality. :p

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

1. As professionals, you and your foreign coworker needed to communicate.
2. When deciding upon a common language, you had two choices.
3. The two choices were Japanese and English.
4. You and the foreigner weighed both languages by comparing your English proficiency and the foreigner's Japanese proficiency.
5. It turned out that your English was better than the foreigner's Japanese.
6. The two of you agreed to speak English rather than Japanese because it would help work proceed more efficiently.


There were two cases in my work.
The case that a foreigner does not understand Japanese.
When I send an email, I can use translation software.
I came so that an engineer heard explanation about a tool of Y2K from Taiwanese IBM when I did work of Y2K.
Because they cannot speak Japanese, they engaged a student of Sophia University as Japanese interpretation.
However, she gets impossible to tell an engineer my explanation because she did not understand a computer term.
I quoted a language of a computer and explained it to them. :bluush:
I felt it then.
Even if English is proficient, it is useless when there is not knowledge of a technical term.
By the way, the student who asked for interpretation was a Japanese, but Japanese was strange. :relief:
The case which worked with the foreigner who spoke Japanese.
He completed a Japanese training course of Tokyo University.
In addition, he graduated from an American university.
He understood English and Japanese and a native language with a Malaysian.
I managed a system of joint enterprise of an American oil-related company and a Japanese company.
Japanese accounting person in charge and he often caused a trouble.
The computer system used an American thing
The accounting person in charge makes a request him by system improvement so that this system is different from the Japanese accounting.
However, most firstly he refuses it.
He explains a reason of refusal to the accounting person in charge next.
The reason is because work of system improvement of a factory is given priority to.
The accounting person in charge is angry.
Talks are done among him with the accounting person in charge with me.
There was often such a case.
The accounting person in charge did not gradually ask him for work.
If the accounting person in charge did this request to me.
I answer it in this way.
Now system improvement of a factory is given priority to.
I confirm whether improvement of an accounting system needs it immediately.
I confirm whether there are not other measures when I cannot do accounting system improvement.
In this case I understood that a problem could be settled by doing a revision on documents.
I do a promise to accept a request of the accounting promptly after system improvement of a factory was finished.
Firstly, in the case of a Japanese, I do not say "NO".
It is a premise to respect a viewpoint of a partner.

[Pachipro]

My curiosity seems to have interrupted you.
I'm sorry.
Please don't be sorry your input is wanted and is just as important as anyone else's. I give you much credit for trying to communicate in English on this topic. Thank You.

(I really wonder where I can meet people like Maciamo-san and Pachipro-san!!)
Thank you for your input on this topic. Your answers are very informative and most important coming from a Japanese person. Concerning the above quote, I'm a little unclear as to what kind of people are you referring to? I think I have made it quite clear in my posts that I am in disagreement with Maciamo concerning the kinds of Japanese people he meets and the kind of Japanese people I have met over the years in Japan.

The way he says the Japanese treat him when he speaks Japanese and the way they treat me when I speak Japanese are quite the opposite in that I have not experienced some the things he has.

While my experiences in speaking and dealing with Japanese have been pleasent, his has not been so pleasent and we sort of disagree on the reasons.

If you're talking about the Japanese who sometimes do not "hear" us when we are speaking Japanese or the Japanese who ask us many times if we like sushi, can use chopsticks, etc., then you are correct. However, it happens all the time to many of us on this forum. Maciamo and I also disagree on our reactions to these questions and such.

I am leaving for Japan tomorrow morning for a 12 day visit :) and will be interacting with the Japanese on an almost daily basis from shopping, eating out, meeting friends, playing pachinko and pachislo etc. and will be extra diligent this trip to notice the reactions of the Japanese when I interact with them in Japanese.

[Maciamo]

That irritates me as well....if I have enough confidence I just continue in Japanese and if the native speaker is pretending not to understand the simplest phrases I put on my best sarcastic tone and querry them -- what about this can possibly be so confusing ? hopefully all without deliberately leaving them feeling too stupid in their own language. :D

Hey hey, I have done that too. :p

[Pachipro]

I think most don't have malicious intentions--only sense of inferiority, backwardness, and lack of awareness that Westerners, especially Europeans, have toward the cultures and languages around the world.

Maybe I'm not typically Japanese, but I think I speak for many Japanese (at least the ones I know).

I am in complete agreement with you on this. In your opinion, epigene-san, what do you think would be the best way for the Japanese to overcome this? Must it start at the government level down through the schools? A public awareness campaign supported by the government? Or do you think it will ever change?

Are most Japanese even AWARE of some of the problems and frustrations experienced by foreigners in Japan and expressed on this forum?

For me, I don't think it will ever change without some input from the government first. The problems and frustrations expressed by some on this forum have been around since my first visit to Japan 30 years ago and not much has changed since. As far as I am concerned, it wouldn't bother me one bit if it never did change except maybe for the discrimination experienced when looking for a place to live. Either way I still love Japan!

[lexico]

Your experience tells me that real language situations are much more complicated than simple small-talk, especially in professional settings.The case that a foreigner does not understand Japanese...Because they cannot speak Japanese, they engaged a student of Sophia University as Japanese interpretation.
However, she gets impossible to tell an engineer my explanation because she did not understand a computer term.
I quoted a language of a computer and explained it to them. :bluush:
I felt it then.
Even if English is proficient, it is useless when there is not knowledge of a technical term.I understand that technical jargon has nothing to do with proficiency in conversational language whether English or Japanese.
Without a basic and clear understanding in the specialized field, an otherwise fluent speaker of English or Japanese cannot perform as usual.
In this case your technical knowledge proved far superior to the language skills of the interpreter.the student who asked for interpretation was a Japanese, but Japanese was strange.If the Japanese interpreter were not trained spedifically for technical interpretation, then it is understandable that the English translation might not not have been accurate enough at natural speed, or even impossible.

Or could the interpreter have been a foreign-born Japanese who returned to Japan rather late to acquire full fluency?

Or was the highly techincal nature of the task overwhelming for a college student?The case which worked with the foreigner who spoke Japanese.
He completed a Japanese training course of Tokyo University.
In addition, he graduated from an American university.
He understood English and Japanese and a native language with a Malaysian.
I managed a system of joint enterprise of an American oil-related company and a Japanese company.

Japanese accounting person in charge and he often caused a trouble.
The computer system used an American thing
The accounting person in charge makes a request him by system improvement so that this system is different from the Japanese accounting.

However, most firstly he refuses it.
He explains a reason of refusal to the accounting person in charge next.
The reason is because work of system improvement of a factory is given priority to.

The accounting person in charge is angry.
Talks are done among him with the accounting person in charge with me.
There was often such a case.
The accounting person in charge did not gradually ask him for work.

If the accounting person in charge did this request to me.
I answer it in this way.
Now system improvement of a factory is given priority to.
I confirm whether improvement of an accounting system needs it immediately.
I confirm whether there are not other measures when I cannot do accounting system improvement.
In this case I understood that a problem could be settled by doing a revision on documents.
I do a promise to accept a request of the accounting promptly after system improvement of a factory was finished.

Firstly, in the case of a Japanese, I do not say "NO".
It is a premise to respect a viewpoint of a partner.Again your experience goes to show that language proficiency (of lack of it) is not the real problem in work situations.
More than language itself, but a general understanding of "communication between humans" seems to hold the key to successful communication.

Although it is difficult to generalize, your two examples offer very good material and insights to help understand our problem, which can involve quite complex situations.
I wonder if the communication skills that you have excercised are something learnable, and whether many Japanese persons share those skills.
Are they (the Japanese) taught these (the communication skills) in school, or during on-job training?

[Maciamo]

Concerning the above quote, I'm a little unclear as to what kind of people are you referring to? I think I have made it quite clear in my posts that I am in disagreement with Maciamo concerning the kinds of Japanese people he meets and the kind of Japanese people I have met over the years in Japan.

I think Epigene meant that she didn't know where to meet foreigners who speak well Japanese like us, not the kind of Japanese I or you were referring to.

[Maciamo]

I think the people living in the "shitamachi" area are more tolerant and confident of themselves, regardless of English skill level, and will speak to a foreigner in Japanese regardless of whether the person understands them or not.


Well, I live in Tokyo's shitamachi (so East Tokyo), and that is where I have had the most problems with people making gestures and feigning not to understand (they were almost all above 50 years old, though, but there are lots of older people in shitamachi). But it's true that it is also mostly in shitamachi that some yakuza-looking guys start shouting strange things when I quietly walk in the street (very un-Japanese !), although that only happened 3 times in 3 years.

[jt_]

When I saw Westerners speaking Japanese on TV (like Jeff Berkland (spelling??) and Thane Camus), I was in awe. I'm really happy to see the growing number of Japanese-speaking foreigners but never had the opportunity to meet them.This may be a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to comment that in Thane Camus's case, he (at least to my knowledge -- I might be wrong about this) spent a significant portion of his childhood in Japan and went to elementary school (and middle school too?) in Japan, so he's basically a native speaker, and thus really shouldn't be lumped in with Westerners who have _learned_ Japanese as a second language.

What surprises me is when some Japanese people, even after hearing this, continue to be impressed at how well he speaks Japanese ("He sounds just like a Japanese person!"). To me, this sheds some light on the attitude that some (not all) Japanese have towards their language. It's as if the fact that he is ethnically Caucasian should somehow preclude him from being able to speak Japanese like a Japanese person, when in actuality, of course, a person of any nationality/ethnic background who grows up speaking a certain language(/languages) from childhood will typically grow up to be a native speaker of that language(/languages).

It's just kind of interesting to note, as nobody (or almost nobody) in the United States (and most other English-speaking countries, no doubt, but I'm only qualified to talk about the US) would be surprised to see, for example an Asian-looking person speaking English like an American. Hell, for all they know, the person might very well be (and most likely probably is) American.

Yet I get this sense that there would be some (again, not all) Japanese who would have a hard time accepting that a Westerner -- even one who was born and raised in Japan -- could be a native speaker of Japanese. I have the feeling this would be somewhat (though perhaps not completely) mitigated if the person in question were half-Japanese.

Of course, I don't believe that this is because the Japanese people who would feel that way are consciously prejudiced or racist -- it's simply that ethnically Western individuals raised in Japan are extremely, extremely rare while there are countless numbers of ethnically Asian individuals raised in English-speaking countries. Still, it's a rather interesting phenomenon.

(Just to clarify: though this post is in response to epigene-san's post, I don't mean to suggest that she holds any of the opinions I make reference to here -- it was just her mention of Thane Camus that got me thinking about this)

[Elizabeth]

Well, I live in Tokyo's shitamachi (so East Tokyo), and that is where I have had the most problems with people making gestures and feigning not to understand (they were almost all above 50 years old, though, but there are lots of older people in shitamachi). But it's true that it is also mostly in shitamachi that some yakuza-looking guys start shouting strange things when I quietly walk in the street (very un-Japanese !), although that only happened 3 times in 3 years.
I've also been patronized and encountered more discrimination in Shinjuku or Kamitakaido (where I stay) than Yanaka. Shitamachi people do tend to be older and practice a more relaxed lifestyle, so someone has always had time to show me around, discuss the cemetaries, point to the still standing Nagaya structures, generally showing great patience with my Japanese (which at last visit was still quite formative).... :relief:

[lexico]

Welcome to the thread, epigene-san! :balloon:
Of all the interesting things that you said in your first post, I find the following especially worthy of attention. I almost never meet Westerners. Only those I meet are people I know through work (an environment where everyone is expected to be able to speak at least Japanese and English--so I speak either language and no one minds) and tourists with their eyes glued to maps, standing in the streets of Shinjuku...
I grew up seeing Americans (GIs) who never learned anything more than a few phrases in Japanese after several years or even decades of living in Japan...
I made acquaintance in the past with some married to Japanese, but their Japanese capabilities were limited. So, I ended up speaking English to avoid misunderstandings. I also felt that they would feel their limitations in communicating in Japanese and become embarrassed.Does everyone mean every Japanese, or both Japanese and foreigners?
From interacting with the few foreigners you'd met or seen thru work, those tourists in Shinjuku, the American GI's, and those married to Japanese, few of them spoke much Japanese, and none like Maciamo or PachiPro. (correct?)

If that was the case, the Japanese are not to be blamed for having the preconception that Japanese is indeed hard to learn, and that Westerners are genuinely handicapped when learning Japanese.

Now this is in comparison to the learned Japanese who were able to accomplish the highly difficult task of culturally assimilating most Western notions either as phonetic loans (normally written in katakana) or calques via classical kanji more than a hundred years ago.
Back then, the Japanese cultural elite learned everything they could about the West, including the Western languages.

But Westerners in general ignored the importance of learning Japanese. (true?)
Then who should be considered superior, just looking at the language situation ?
(historically, in the 1860's-1900's for example)
In other words, Westerners brought it upon themselves in a way; they inherited the sins of their forefathers !
Do you think this kind of explanation is far-fetched ? :relief:
But then, why didn't these Westerners not learn Japanese when they had the chance ???
Do you think Westerners at some point in time felt vastly superior to the Japanese (or Asians) in general, and because of it considered the Japanese tongue unworthy of learning ?
and Japanese so hung up on their inferiority of not being able to speak English.Do you think this feeling of "inferiority" can also be the result of losing WWII ?
(in all the possible connotations of this negative history from the Japanese' view)

Is it possible that this "feeling inferior" came first, and then the "language block" came about as a result of it ?
Again, do you think I am overly stretching my imagination ?
Just wanted to ask you these troubling questions to get it off my chest. :relief:

EDIT: I agree with jt's observation because of the reasons I find probable in the above.What surprises me is when some Japanese people, even after hearing this, continue to be impressed at how well he speaks Japanese ("He sounds just like a Japanese person!"). To me, this sheds some light on the attitude that some (not all) Japanese have towards their language. It's as if the fact that he is ethnically Caucasian should somehow preclude him from being able to speak Japanese like a Japanese person...

Yet I get this sense that there would be some (again, not all) Japanese who would have a hard time accepting that a Westerner -- even one who was born and raised in Japan -- could be a native speaker of Japanese...

Of course, I don't believe that this is because the Japanese people who would feel that way are consciously prejudiced or racist -- it's simply that ethnically Western individuals raised in Japan are extremely, extremely rare while there are countless numbers of ethnically Asian individuals raised in English-speaking countries.The extreme rarity of a Westerner speaking fluent Japanese in the past may very well be the cause of the misconception in the minds of the Japanese as you say here.

[jt_]

But then, why didn't these Westerners not learn Japanese when they had the chance ???
Do you think Westerners at some point in time felt vastly superior to the Japanese or Asians in general, and because of it considered the Japanese tongue unworthy of learning ?I think it's much more likely that they simply felt that they could get by without learning it. I mean, when you consider that most of them were living in military bases where they could get by speaking English all the time and had more contact with English speakers than Japanese speakers, and that most of them probably had no intention of remaining in Japan any longer than they had to, is it really that surprising that they wouldn't put forth the massive effort that would be required to achieve advanced proficiency in Japanese? I'm not saying that I agree with this line of thinking, but it certainly isn't completely bizarre to me -- especially if I try to put myself in the position of e.g. an American serviceman in Japan. I think saying that they necessarily felt "superior" to Japanese/Asians or found the language "unworthy of learning" is a bit too strong.

[lexico]

I think it's much more likely that they simply felt that they could get by without learning it. I mean, when you consider that most of them were living in military bases where they could get by speaking English all the time and had more contact with English speakers than Japanese speakers, and that most of them probably had no intention of remaining in Japan any longer than they had to, is it really that surprising that they wouldn't put forth the massive effort that would be required to achieve advanced proficiency in Japanese? I'm not saying that I agree with this line of thinking, but it certainly isn't completely bizarre to me -- especially if I try to put myself in the position of e.g. an American serviceman in Japan. I think saying that they necessarily felt "superior" to Japanese/Asians or found the language "unworthy of learning" is a bit too strong.I'm sorry. I've been excercising a bit of anachronism and extreme characterization here.
Now for clarity's sake, let us limit ourselves to the occupation period and thenafter. Your saying is that in the minds of the US sevicemen during that time, Japanese wasn't necessary and wasn't worth the effort of learning.

[Pachipro]

I think Epigene meant that she didn't know where to meet foreigners who speak well Japanese like us, not the kind of Japanese I or you were referring to.
Epigene, if that is what you ment, I apologize for misinterpreting your statement. :sorry: 20 lashes with a wet Udon noodle for me! :-)

[Pachipro]

I think it's much more likely that they simply felt that they could get by without learning it. I mean, when you consider that most of them were living in military bases where they could get by speaking English all the time and had more contact with English speakers than Japanese speakers, and that most of them probably had no intention of remaining in Japan any longer than they had to, is it really that surprising that they wouldn't put forth the massive effort that would be required to achieve advanced proficiency in Japanese? I'm not saying that I agree with this line of thinking, but it certainly isn't completely bizarre to me -- especially if I try to put myself in the position of e.g. an American serviceman in Japan. I think saying that they necessarily felt "superior" to Japanese/Asians or found the language "unworthy of learning" is a bit too strong.

Your saying is that in the minds of the US sevicemen during that time, Japanese wasn't necessary and wasn't worth the effort of learning.

I can't speak for jt_, but I agree with what he is saying and what lexico is surmising as I can speak from experience. I was stationed with the US military for the first 4 years of my stay in Japan beginning in early 1973. I moved off base to a Japanese apartment within the first year and began learning Japanese and living like one except for the 8 hours or so per day that I would spend on the base. Not one of my friends, peers, or higher ranking personnel that I knew on that base took any time or effort to learn the language save for a few phrases that would get them by. In the end, I only knew of two people, both Navy personnel that did learn the language and eventually live and go to school in Japan like myself.

As jt_ said there was no need for them to learn. All business and shopping was conducted on the base in English and living on a base is no different than living in a small town in the US as everything is there. Shopping, bowling alleys and other sports, fast food restaurants, bars, etc. I knew of some people who were stationed in Japan and almost never ventured off the base save for one or two times a year. And even then it was with a group of other Americans. I knew some retired personnel with Japanese wives who worked as civilians for the military and have been in Japan more than 15 or 20 years and they hardly knew a lick of Japanese. What a shame and waste. When I questioned them about it they said there was no need to learn Japanese.

This is not only true for the US military. The same holds true for a lot of the kids of international businessmen and embassy people that I went to school with at Sophia University's International Division. Alot of them knew almost nothing of the Japanese culture or language and had no desire to learn. Even their parents were surprisingly ignorant when it came to Japanese and the Japanese culture. Most of them were wealthy, lived in huge, western-style houses in Tokyo, (some of their houses were so huge and western that I thought I was back in the states!); they shopped at the international food stores, ate mostly western food and hob nobbed with only other foreigners or those of their culture. These were not only Americans, but Canadian, Middle Eastern, English, Dutch, German, you name it.

Again, the same holds true for Japanese here in the states. Granted, most of the Japanese men do know a fair amount of English, but their wives do not, nor do they have the desire to learn about English and American culture. Even here, in dinky Nashville, most of the Japanese wives of the company I used to work for, and those of other Japanese companies, spoke almost no English. They would go shopping in a group with at least one wife who knew English fairly well. They would buy their food at Japanese food stores, subscribe to NHK satellite TV, socialize with other wives from the company, and all send their kids to Japanese schools on Saturdays. They would cook their husbands Japanese meals and the men would usually only socialize with other Japanese on their days off to play golf or play mahjong. The men almost NEVER socialized with Americans on their days off unless those Americans played golf.

Therefore, when one has access to anything and everything from their own culture in a foreign country and are only going to be there for a few short years, why should they, or would they want to, learn of another culture if they don't desire? I think the pendulum swings both ways in this case. It is not only limited to foreigners in Japan.

[SkippyDaStudent85]

No, it isn't the most logical thing to do. Think about it a bit.

I see your point. Although it would seem logical that someone in a foreign country would know the language (unless they are completely mental) of the country, you can't just assume they do. That is why I said it is more logical to ask, even if it it barely more logical.

[Elizabeth]

I see your point. Although it would seem logical that someone in a foreign country would know the language (unless they are completely mental) of the country, you can't just assume they do. That is why I said it is more logical to ask, even if it it barely more logical.
Are you talking about asking a Japanese-looking person if they know Japanese or from the perspective of them asking a foreigner ?

[Maciamo]

I've also been patronized and encountered more discrimination in Shinjuku or Kamitakaido (where I stay) than Yanaka. Shitamachi people do tend to be older and practice a more relaxed lifestyle, so someone has always had time to show me around, discuss the cemetaries, point to the still standing Nagaya structures, generally showing great patience with my Japanese (which at last visit was still quite formative)....

FYI, shitamachi is not Shinjuku, but what used to be the centre of Edo, that is Nihombashi, Kanda, Asakusa, Kagurazaka, Fukagawa, Mukojima, etc.

[Maciamo]

... it's simply that ethnically Western individuals raised in Japan are extremely, extremely rare while there are countless numbers of ethnically Asian individuals raised in English-speaking countries.


Not sure if that is "extremely, extremely rare". I know a few people in that case. A few famous Japn-related writers have also been raised in Japan : Alex Kerr (author of Lost Japan (http://www.jref.com/shop/showproduct.php/product/2/sort/7/cat/all/page/1) and Dogs & Demons (http://www.jref.com/shop/showproduct.php/product/1/sort/7/cat/all/page/1)), Nathalie Nothomb (author of "Stupeurs et Tremblements", famous to French speakers). I think it's more common with Americans, as many were children of US staff during the occupation, or US soldiers later. In Nathalie Nothomb's case, she was the daughter of the Belgian ambassador to Japan. A French guy I know who was raised in Japan, studied only a Japanese school (and still live in Japan), is also the son of someone from the embassy. I guess there must be quite a few cases like that, given the number of long-term embassy staff and US soldiers in Japan.

Contrarily to adults, those children raised in Japan have a greater chance to pick up the language, especially if their parents allow them to go to Japanese schools or if they get the opportunity to get Japanese friends.

[Maciamo]

Then who should be considered superior, just looking at the language situation ?
(historically, in the 1860's-1900's for example)
...
But then, why didn't these Westerners not learn Japanese when they had the chance ???
Do you think Westerners at some point in time felt vastly superior to the Japanese (or Asians) in general, and because of it considered the Japanese tongue unworthy of learning ?

I don't think that all Westerners overlooked the learning of Japanese. Take someone like James Curtis Hepburn (1815-1911) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Curtis_Hepburn), who created the romaji system in 1867 (just one year before Meiji !) or European writer Lafcadio Hearn (1850-1904), who became Japanese (and took the name "Koizumi Yagumo") and became one of the most famous "Japanese" writer of his time.

[Elizabeth]

FYI, shitamachi is not Shinjuku, but what used to be the centre of Edo, that is Nihombashi, Kanda, Asakusa, Kagurazaka, Fukagawa, Mukojima, etc.
Of course not, I've only been to Yanaka and the museum in Ueno, but I was trying to draw a contrast. :p

[SkippyDaStudent85]

Are you talking about asking a Japanese-looking person if they know Japanese or from the perspective of them asking a foreigner ?

It was from the point of view of anyone dealing with foreigners, in general. Let me clarify my statement.

I see your point. Although it would seem logical that someone in a foreign country would know the language (unless they are completely mental) of the country, you can't just assume they do. That is why I said it is more logical to ask, even if it it barely more logical.

Let's say that I am a Japanese person. I see someone who seems obviously foreign (say a VERY caucasian American, like me IRL) to the country. Now, as someone with common sense, I would like to think the American knows Japanese, being as he is in Japan. Being the same person of common sense, I cannot assume he knows Japanese because not everyone who travels to a foreign country knows the native language of that country's people. For this reason, it would make slightly more sense to ask him if he knows Japanese and have to apologize than to assume he does and address him as such.

[Elizabeth]

It was from the point of view of anyone dealing with foreigners, in general. Let me clarify my statement.



Let's say that I am a Japanese person. I see someone who seems obviously foreign (say a VERY caucasian American, like me IRL) to the country. Now, as someone with common sense, I would like to think the American knows Japanese, being as he is in Japan. Being the same person of common sense, I cannot assume he knows Japanese because not everyone who travels to a foreign country knows the native language of that country's people. For this reason, it would make slightly more sense to ask him if he knows Japanese and have to apologize than to assume he does and address him as such.
There is nothing about going to the country that is going to make you learn it unfortunately besides years and years of study....something you would assume vacationers or short-term tourists are willing to put in for the pleasure of pachinko or a Japanese baseball game ? Sorry to burst your expectations, but even a great many foreign students of the language living and breathing the air can barely hold a reasonable conversation. :sorry: I was thinking it was illogical to know a priori which language you'd ask in....

[SkippyDaStudent85]

I understand what you are saying, but I wouldn't say that I had any "expectations" to burst. I was just saying what seemed most logical.

And I never said being in a country made you able to speak the language. What I did say was that I would like to think someone in a foreign country could speak the language of the native people, but it would be silly to assume that they could automatically. That was why I said asking would be better than just rambling at them in Japanese (or whatever language applies), hoping they understand.

[misa.j]

I voted for the 3rd choice;
They should address them in Japanese and only use gestures or speak more slowly if the person doesn't understand

Assuming that someone doesn't understand what you are going to say is nonsense and arrogant in my opinion.
I hope those Japanese people stop freaking out whenever they see a foreigner, just be natural and speak Japanese to them unless they are asked for other languages.

Why do people who work at the bento shop where Maciamo frequents think that writing things down helps? I think that's plain rude.

[epigene]

I voted for the 3rd choice;
They should address them in Japanese and only use gestures or speak more slowly if the person doesn't understand

Assuming that someone doesn't understand what you are going to say is nonsense and arrogant in my opinion.
I hope those Japanese people stop freaking out whenever they see a foreigner, just be natural and speak Japanese to them unless they are asked for other languages.

Why do people who work at the bento shop where Maciamo frequents think that writing things down helps? I think that's plain rude.
Misa-san, I think you've lived in the US too long to forget how strange people behave in front of persons who look foreign. I think the normally functioning brain of the Japanese becomes "paralyzed" and dysfunctions from "fright" (maybe the word isn't appropriate, but I hope you get what I mean). :relief:

To Maciamo-san:
Regarding the reactions of the "shitamachi" people toward you, I really want to be there and see what happens with my own eyes!! Don't people get used to your presence?

Though I don't know if this works for you and if you have the time for it, why not volunteer and participate in the local "jichi-kai" (community association)? I have heard of a number of Westerners finally being accepted into communities through having their children go to local schools and joining PTA. Since shitamachi tend to be closely knit, you may need to break in through community activities...??

Just an idea... You may have already tried this.

There have been many prominent Japanese-speaking foreigners in the past, but they are still few in number and are considered "exceptional," I think. The problem is you don't see fluent Japanese speakers walking around in the local community or at work.

On what can be done to address the problem, I think it will take time--more international marriages, more Japanese who have overseas experience and can speak English or other foreign languages fluently, more foreigners speaking Japanese so that people lose interest in Japanese-speaking "gajin tarento." In short, more intercultural interaction.

In the meantime, Maciamo-san should willingly stand prominent as the "preeminent gaijin resident" of the community and exercise leadership. :yeahh:

[lexico]

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into sh