Should Japan Abolish Kanji?

[Silverbackman]

This issue was raised up I think sometime before in Japan but it never got passed.

Do you think they should keep kanji? Kanji is makes it more difficult to learn Japanese, and hiragana and katagana could be used to write any word. Since Kanji is basically a copy of Chinese and hiragana and katagana are more Japanese unique, I don't see why kanji should be kept.

What do you think?

[Emoni]

Without Kanji, Japanese would be much more difficult to read. I would think Japan would have gone insane if they do something like this or even consider it. Kanji is only an problem at first, but just because ti is hard doesn't mean it is there for no reason.

[lexico]

I am sure there are at least a dozen practical reasons to keep the kanji a part of Japanese orthography. Leaving those to the experts, I'll only comment on my personal interest in the kanjis.

The Chinese characters were borrowed by neighboring countries and cultures for over 2,000 years and possibly longer. While Japan, Korean, and old Vietnam preserved much of the language information in the form of various "kanji" readings, those of the Northern empires such as the Xiongnu, Xianbi, Norther Wei, Kitan, Xixia, Jin (Jurchen) and many others failed to preserve either language or ethnic identity.

As one of few remaiming depositories of ancient language infromation, the kanji tradition must be preserved for the study of the Japanese language and for comparative linguistics. If Japan should decide to forego with kanji altogether, that would be a great loss to Japan's cultural heritage of which modern science has only begun to scratch the surface. Hence I am all for preserving kanji, and strongly against abolishing it.

[Revenant]

I heard the abolishment of Kanji had been under consideration cause it takes a lot of space to program it into a computer or electronic. Also that many Japanese people are forgetting how to write Kanji, due to computers making it easier. I don't think the abolishment of Kanji would make reading a lot more difficult. Just reading a word in context, much like English people do with the words that have the same spelling. Although I'm wondering if spaces or dots might be needed between words, as Kanji provides an easy way of telling what is the verb, noun, etc, and what is particle.

[Bob in Iowa]

I think that it is a ridiculous notion to suggest that kanji be abolished. As Emoni stated, without kanji, reading Japanese would be a lot more difficult. Kana only represent a sound, whereas kanji represent a thing, an act, or a concept, or a name, therefore it is much easier to recognize the meaning of a word in kanji than to read a string of kana and to determine the meaning through the context of the sentence (like we have to do in English). Furthermore, the finest state of fluency in the language is in its written form where a skillful writer, through the selection of kanji with slight variations in connotation, can create subtleties in the written word an order of magnitude beyond what we can accomplish with our meager alphabet.

I only wish that I could appreciate the written word of Japanese through my own ability to read, but alas, I am one of those who are thankful that on railway station signs, the station names are written in kana below the kanji to help keep the illiterate from getting lost.

[Leroy_Brown]

Just take naming a newborn as an example.

With only Kana, a boy would only be Takashi without any meaning. Kanas are just letters.

If you use Kanji, you choose the one for "Taka" and one for "shi", each with a specific meaning, to form a name with a meaning that you want to imbue the child with.

"hiragana and katagana are more Japanese unique"

Yes, but they were derived from Kanji.

[Maciamo]

Japanese without kanji would be quite incomprehensible as a written language - there are just too many homonyms ! I would never want to read a book only in kanas. I have seen such books for children, but real literature would be a real pain to understand. Still don't know how the Japanese understand each others in daily life. It must be why they always use the same easy words, and why there are kanji subtitles in most TV shows, news, etc.

What's more it would lose its attractiveness. One of my favourite thing in learning Japanese are the kanji. Not to mention that it is more beautiful to have station names written in kanji than in any other script. Some lines only have hiragana and I hate it (not hiragana itself :p ).

If Japan wants to reform its writing system, I suggest that they abandon katakana and just write foreign words in romaji, as katakana lacks too many sounds found in other languages (r/l, v/b, y, w, diphtongs such as "eu"...)

[Index]

Writing things just in kana would take up a lot more space too, which is a matter of practicality. As an example 私　vs　わたくし.

Does anybody remember that Japanese tounge twister regarding gardens (にわ；庭）,
some kind of bird (also にわ）, and the fact that there were two of these birds there (this time 二羽 which is also にわ).

I think it was something along the lines of "there are two bird in my garden" ie. にわににわにわがいる、that is 庭ににわ二羽が居る, or something like that. It makes no sense in just kana.

[Flowerbird]

Without kanji it's not so easy to read Japanese. It might be difficult to learn at first, but once you know a few you don't want to turn back, you want to keep on learning more and more Besides, the meaning behind each individual kanji is just awsome to learn. Gettig rid of these beautiful characters would be a tremendous cultural and historical loss :(

[SkippyDaStudent85]

Even though I personally am having a hard time learning the kanji, I do not think it should be abolished at all.

[gokarosama]

I cannot imagine kanji could ever be abolished...unless Japan turns into a totalitarian state sometime in the near future, which is unlikely.

In any case one wonders what the objective of abolishing kanji would hope to achieve....ease of study or reading for foreigners? Hmmm.

To state that "kanji is basically a copy of Chinese" doesn't suggest the writer has a good grasp of how all languages develop over time.

[GaijinPunch]

doyouthinkit'shardtoreadwithnospaceswherewordsrunt ogether?Ifsothenvote"no".

[Doc]

If somebody tried to abolish Kanji, they should be fixed. Sure it's hard to read for most, but it's a part of Japanese culture. Denying them Kanji is like what the Christian missionaries are doing to the Africans tribes in the South. Out of 200 languages, only 500 in each can speak their own respectively anymore. Sometimes forcing English on other people is a crime.

Doc

[blade_bltz]

It just wouldn't work...at all. Kanji are integral components of all reading material, from signs, to subtitles, to, of course, literature and other important written documents. The syllabic system of kana restricts the amount of possible words that can be easily made differentiable (unless you started making nastily long strings of characters), so homonyms abound in Japanese. Kanji provide a feasible solution to this problem. Also, the nuance implied in the art of kanji itself is enough reason to keep them around.

[Emoni]

There should almost be a secondary poll attached to this.

"How many of those voting here actually know how to READ the basic everyday Kanji?"

I'm not going to go too far in my assuptions, but a majority of those voting "no" most likely know very little about why Kanji is so critical to reading and the effect it has on the language as well. Once you get past about two or three years of Japanese language, you will understand this. Not to mention the other various reasons mentioned above. I would be EXTREMELY surprised if anyone who knows Kanji is going to suddenly say that it should be removed entirely. Removing Kanji from Japanese doesn't quite have a comparision in English, but I guess the closest guess would be removing all spaces and puctuation marks cause, "They just get in the way and take too long to put in and learn to use correctly."

I find it hard to believe any Japanese person who is sane would propose the idea of removing Kanji from the language. Unless he is just evil, or thinks it is funny. Yahoo! Most of our country is now unable to read any books from the past years because they don't know the kanji anymore! Only the most elite in 50 years or so can read 5th grades level reading books due to their kanji reading ability remaining. Not the best of plans for a language...

By the way, the poem is this I believe. I'll put it without Kanji *evil laugh*

にわにわにはにわとりがいる。

I think that says it all.

(BTW, Most Hiragana and Katakana also come from Kanji, thus Chinese characters.)

[lexico]

I hate to say this, but the poll attached seems to be flawed.
Let me tell you why.

The title of this thread/poll is "Should Japan Abolish Kanji?"

The question in the poll page is "Do you think they should keep kanji?"
with options "Yes/No/Maybe"

Don't you think this can be misleading ? Depending on the member's forum screen setting, the question might not show very clearly. Then there is a high chance that they answer "No" when they actually mean "Yes, Japan should keep kanji".

This is also proven by the fact that of the 14 posters, at least 12 of them were skeptic of the view that kanji should/could be aboished. But the current poll result as of 14:30, Mar. 8, Tokyo Standard Time, there are 8 participants who answered "No" and only 6 who answered "Yes."

My hunch is of the 8 "No" votes, at least 6 (12-6=6) meant "No, Japan should not abolish kanji." Do you see the problem here ? Because the thread title and the poll question have exactly opposite meanings, at least 6 posters were mislead, and voted "No" when they actually meant "Yes, I think they should keep kanji."

I don't know how it can be done, but please ask the administrator or moderator to help you rectify this error. There must be a way to preserve the posts, but redoing the poll page (actually recreating a blank slate=originating post; everyone need to vote anew, I think.). Cheers.

As for the options, simple Yes/No/Maybe will not do.
Because of the confusion that already undermined the polls crdibility, might I suggest spelling out the options to the letter? As

"Yes, Japan should abolish kanji."
"No, Japan should not abolish kanji."
"Maybe Japan might abolish kanji." (This probably means "don't know" or "not sure." right?)

@ Emoni: While I was writing this, you also added some comments. We both seem to be surprised at the poll result. So let's talk to the thread originator to resolve this obvious discrepancy, Emoni. :)

[Index]

Maybe it was a trick question, to insidiously get the result he really wanted....you should be a politician Silverbackman. :)

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

あっ、間違えた。 :p
漢字を廃止しないでください。
理由?
漢字は、面白いから。 :blush:
Oh, I made a mistake. :p
Please do not abolish a kanji.
A reason?
Because a kanji is interesting :blush:

[Maciamo]

I hate to say this, but the poll attached seems to be flawed.
Let me tell you why.

The title of this thread/poll is "Should Japan Abolish Kanji?"

The question in the poll page is "Do you think they should keep kanji?"
with options "Yes/No/Maybe"

It's so misleading that I voted for the wrong one myself. Reading the comments so far, it seems that almost everybody agrees that kanji should NOT be abolished, which didn't match the poll results. So I reset the poll. :relief:

Anybody for the abolition of the kanji that has already voted ?

[Takara]

No way. Keep the kanji because it's something that is really interesting to learn about.

[yorkii]

the kanji for me adds to the whole mysterious and mystical nature to the country for me... if i could read it as the strict 27 characters that we use, it would definately seem less magical. i want to have to work to be able to read this fantastic language...!

[PaulTB]

I voted 'Maybe' but what I wanted to vote for was 'None of our* business.'

* For values of 'our' that don't include native speakers of Japanese.

[yorkii]

I voted 'Maybe' but what I wanted to vote for was 'None of our* business.'

* For values of 'our' that don't include native speakers of Japanese.

it doesn't mean we can't express an opinion...

:blush:

[RockLee]

ok, why not make EVERYTHING western...I think kanji is one of the things that make Japan Japan...if everything would be in romaji it would be dull :souka: Kanji rulez !!

[GaijinPunch]

Maciamo -- isn't it possible that some people voted but didn't reply?

[RockLee]

@Gaijinpunch...erm..DUH !!!

[Mycernius]

I like kanji. I true that I don't know much, but It strikes me as a form of shorthand. Why write a long word when one symbol can say it. It is a bit like getting rid of @ for at. How many people here would want to write the word dollar, percent or and when you can use $, %, & ?

[cicatriz esp]

The only way it would be feasible (to abolish) is if they also put spaces between their words. But as Maciamo said, the sheer number of homonyms makes kanji practically a necessity.

In my eyes, "it's uniquely Japanese" and "it's been used for many many years" aren't really valid stand-alone reasons to keep kanji. A language must evolve or die. But I can't see Japanese working without it.

[Elizabeth]

I heard the abolishment of Kanji had been under consideration cause it takes a lot of space to program it into a computer or electronic. Also that many Japanese people are forgetting how to write Kanji, due to computers making it easier.
In fact, kanji is becoming more prevelant online and complicated characters are supplanting what used to be hiragana thanks to the very ease of word processing. Their abolition was discussed at the end of WWII for sure along with a lot of other language reforms, but for the very good reasons everyone has mentioned already there hasn't been any momentum for it since. Even Korea found itself politically and socially isolated from other East Asian nations when it experimented with this, and they are not nearly as integral to even basic comprehension as they are to Japanese.

[lexico]

Korea found itself politically and socially isolated from other East Asian nations when it experimented with this, and they are not nearly as integral to even basic comprehension as with Japanese.日語學槪說 (1989, p.38) says, "Vietnam, Korea, and Japan which imported the writing system of China are often collectively called the 'cultural sphere of Chinese characters.' Of these three countries, the Chinese character system has most firmly taken root in Japan," and even Korea should stop the nonsense of trying to abolish 漢字 because it is not foreign any more but a fully naturalized writing system. The newer publications without the 漢字 identified often makes my referencing three times as time consuming. The Korean experiment will eventually cease due to the cultural dichotomy that is not welcome at all.

[Ewok85]

How about Japan adopts english as the national language so its easier for you? Geez, some people just dont want to make the effort....

[Martialartsnovice]

Wait a second, if Japan were t oabolish its kanji, as Maciamo said earlier that the sheer number of Homonyms, would make any Japanese writings ilegible, and illiterate.

One Question, I pose to everyone is this, "If they abolish Kanji, how will it affect the people trying to learn Japanese, Both Native and Non-Native Speakers." and " How would it effect the people who learned Kanji, when they were learning Japanese."

[smoke]

i'm afraid my knowledge of the japanese language is..well, to be honest, non-existent.
but i would imagine that abolishing kanji would be like removing a whole language.
for example in a country where there is more than one (native) language (Canada is the only one that i can think of)... i imagine it would be like removing that language alltogether, (bye bye french or english!).
but, as i said, my knowledge of the japanese language...and most every other language is limited.

[Leroy_Brown]

Abolish something just because it's difficult?

Then what about chemistry? Physics? Trigonometry?

Many Japanese have a hard time learning English. Let's get rid of that too.

Fat, unathletic kids are now excused from gym.

Those without any sense of rhythm can skip music.

Why even bother going to school, it's too hard anyway?

[budd]

only if they use english/some other language completely and totally, no backsliding

[lexico]

One Question, I pose to everyone is this, "If they abolish Kanji, how will it affect the people trying to learn Japanese, Both Native and Non-Native Speakers." and " How would it effect the people who learned Kanji, when they were learning Japanese."Interesting question you raise. As far as everyday speech goes, it shouldn't be affected at all; after all writing is just an appendix to what's spoken.

On the other hand, the higher end of communication which transcends distance and time and dialects (I just read today, the Ryuchuan dialects are mutually unintelligible, needless to say with main islander from Honshu! I've gone into shock! :mad: :silly: :atchoo:). So for a civilized life with government services, I guess it's sayonara without the kanji !

[woops! wrong answer.]Learning will not be affected at the beginner's level because a lot of people are leaning Japanese only using romaji. But as the learning progresses, learning will become more and more difficult because of the confusion.<--difficult to visualize.

For those of you who have already learned Japanese upto proficiency, of it will affect them negatively. Not just jealous late comers are getting it easy, but one major script is taken away, and they have to relearn new conventions of orthography transcribing all words and expressions containing kanji now in kana-only.

[GaijinPunch]

@Gaijinpunch...erm..DUH !!!

So why are you caining me for pointing out the obvious?

[lexico]

isn't it possible that some people voted but didn't reply?That surely crossed my mind, too. But the misleading question also got you misunderstood, I think. Your first response was terse (yest, the spacing too, but otherwise gave me a headspin : p), and I'm not sure which "No" you were talking about. But either way, it's a thing of the past. Cheers! :wave:

[Dekamaster]

It's part of the culture so I guess Japan would be giving up some of its heritage by doing this.

[Glenn]

I'm getting sick of this discussion (not necessarily what everyone here is saying, just that it keeps coming up), so I'm going to just post some links to pages that address the issue pretty well, and hope that I get at least most of them.

http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/glossary?SASE=/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/index.html#xref2 (a different take on the "niwa niwa niwatori ga niwa iru" saying)
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/message/jpnDwlJxeh1DwjfGuYF.html
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/message/jpnDwlWNqXkDwjfGuYF.html (and the whole thread (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/message/message.cgi?thread=jpnDwlWNqXkDwjfGuYF.html) that these messages are in)

From the last message, and perhaps the most pertinent pieces of information:It's a common misunderstanding that logograms are obsolete and phonograms are modern. In fact, linguists have proven that a human being can read logograms faster than phonograms if trained to read. There are some Japanese who have been trying to write Japanese only in kana or only in alphabets with no success. If you write Japanese without kanji, you will forget the meanings of morphemes. The disadvantage of logograms is their difficulty to learn, but the fact that developed nations such as Japan and Taiwan have a very low illiteracy rate indicates it is not so hard to learn kanji as you might think, if good education is available.

同音異義語への異議 (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/language/homophone.html) (in Japanese)
鈍化する思考力 (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/language/gairaigo.html) (in Japanese)

The last two aren't exactly along the lines of the question, but they discuss homophones and the use of kanji vocabulary instead of foreign words, respectively.

I know there was at least one other discussion about this on this forum, but I can't find it now, and I don't really feel like looking.

[lexico]

Thanks Glenn for bringing some (forum) historical perspective. I can fully understand older memebers' distaste for the absurd questions and debate being repeated, but like they say, no question is a dumb question, but only a cold audience. And you are not as cold as you make out to be! :wave:

Please let me add just one minor point.logograms are obsolete and phonograms are modernIt is technically misleading to call kanjis "logograms" as opposed to "phonograms," as John DeFrancis had struggled to demystify the misconception.

Of the some 49,000 characters of the Kangxi characters, which is highly significant for Japanese, less than 20% are "visual representations," non-phonological "ideograms," or "pictograms" if you will.

More than 80% of all possible kanjis in fact represent sounds of the words by way of semantic-phonetic compounds 形聲字 or phonetic loans 假借字. The common term "ideogram" is also misleading for the same reason; only a small percentage of all kanjis are truely pictographic 象形字. This is more true when considering the on'yomi readings 音讀, and less true with the kun'yomi readings 訓讀.

[mr.sumo.snr]

A poll about katakana loanwords, namely their overuse, might be of interest.

As would some opinions as to the effectiveness of Japanese-language study (kokugo) in elementary and high schools.

(Some of the best discussions in my private classes are about the differences between English language education in the UK and Japanese-language study in schools here - it utterly astounds my students, many of them grade school teachers, that an eleven year old in the UK might be given a four-page creative writing assignment for homework - I DO tell them the pages are probably B5 and not A4 !!!!)

[Glenn]

Please let me add just one minor point.It is technically misleading to call kanjis "logograms" as opposed to "phonograms," as John DeFrancis had struggled to demystify the misconception.

Of the some 49,000 characters of the Kangxi characters, which is highly significant for Japanese, less than 20% are "phonographic," i.e. non-phonological. More than 80% in fact represent the sounds of the words by way of phonetic-semantic compounds 形聲字 or phonetic loans 假借字. The common term "ideogram" is also misleading for the same reason; only a small percentage of all kanjis are truely pictographic 像形字. This is more true when considering the on'yomis 音讀字, and less true with the kun'yomis 訓讀字.

Yeah, it's one of those mysteries. I never know what to call them and be 100% accurate. "Characters" apparently isn't good enough, and neither are the more scientific terms from what you say. Anyway, I thought that this was a good chance to post information on the six ways of forming kanji (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/message/jpnDr4u27Fa.html). :wave::-)

[Mycernius]

Learning will not be affected at the beginner's level because a lot of people are leaning Japanese only using romaji. But as the learning progresses, learning will become more and more difficult because of the confusion.<--difficult to visualize.

For those of you who have already learned Japanese upto proficiency, of it will affect them negatively. Not just jealous late comers are getting it easy, but one major script is taken away, and they have to relearn new conventions of orthography transcribing all words and expressions containing kanji now in kana-only.
I have found that while I am trying to learn basic japanese that I use a notebook and transcibe the romaji into kana. As I improve I will then try to put the kanji instead of the kana, as and when it is needed. Mind you I think I approached Japanese the wrong way. I looked at the kanji first, then the kana and then the actually language.

[Martialartsnovice]

Hey, dont some other languages have more than one script for writing the recording the spoken words. A bit off topic, I know but Ithink this might be a concern for everyone who speaks a foreign language.

[Ewok85]

Really it comes down to that Kanji is an integral part of Japanese and has been for a very long time. To exclude it on the grounds that it is difficult to learn is a petty reason. And even if they did what would the solution to the problems that would arise?

[lexico]

I have found that while I am trying to learn basic japanese that I use a notebook and transcibe the romaji into kana. As I improve I will then try to put the kanji instead of the kana, as and when it is needed. Mind you I think I approached Japanese the wrong way. I looked at the kanji first, then the kana and then the actually language.I honestly don't think there is either a right or wrong way to learn Japanese or any language. Whatever sparks your interest, you can rest assured that you are lucky to bw endowed with it. A lot of times someone might want to learn the language, say for business only, while holding a grudge for having to do it. Go for it by all means.

Somewhere in the forum was said, don't worry about not having the best study method and waste valuable study time. Just go with what seems to be adequately reasonable, and you will make progress. You are actually employing two approaches, and that is giving you a strong advantage when compared to people who dread the thought of learning kanji. It's actually fun once you get the hang of it (you probably already know this), and it only gets better, I promise! :wave:

[Leroy_Brown]

Imagine if the Chinese decided to abolish Kanji :D :D :D :D

[ToMach]

Please let me add just one minor point.It is technically misleading to call kanjis "logograms" as opposed to "phonograms," as John DeFrancis had struggled to demystify the misconception.
Of the some 49,000 characters of the Kangxi characters, which is highly significant for Japanese, less than 20% are "visual representations," non-phonological "ideograms," or "pictograms" if you will.
More than 80% of all possible kanjis in fact represent sounds of the words by way of semantic-phonetic compounds 形聲字 or phonetic loans 假借字. The common term "ideogram" is also misleading for the same reason; only a small percentage of all kanjis are truely pictographic 象形字. This is more true when considering the on'yomi readings 音讀, and less true with the kun'yomi readings 訓讀.
Saying that Chinese characters are in majority logograms/logographs is not totally wrong I think : most of them are used to represent whole words or morphemes. But all writing systems using logograms also sometimes use them as phonograms to represent sounds without relation to the meaning of the words they usually represent. Since this is a universal property of logograms, it is not wrong to say that Chinese characters are mostly logograms, even if sometimes they are used as phonograms.
This is different from the etymology and nature of the character : some were created as pictures representing objects or concepts, some encoded both meaning and pronunciation, and few encoded only pronunciation. It doesn't matter which of the six categories a character belongs to, it can be employed in only two ways : as logograph, to represent a speech unit of meaning (word/morpheme) or as phonogram, to represent a speech unit of sound (vowel, consonnant, syllable, mora, etc).
But since Chinese characters were borrowed by several different languages which developped sometimes their own uses, but they still more or less remained the same graphs, linguists refer sometimes simply to "sinographs", which englobes real Chinese characters and Sino-Japanese/Korean/etc ones.

[orochi]

Hell no. Half the reason Japanese is as beautiful as it is is because of kanji.

[budd]

notes a lot of know-it-alls wouldn't be able to make themselves feel so big either
"the nerve!!! they should have given me supersize fries for free!!! i passed the thrid level of the JLPT on the first try!!! they need to bow down and kiss my feet, those saxon dogs!!! *beverly hillbillies' quote interspersed*"

[Leroy_Brown]

Accomodations have already been made once for those who complain that Kanji are too difficult. They can't keep doing that forever.

After WWII the Japanese gov't modified many of the most difficult Kanjis, i.e., those with the most strokes, to make them easier by reducing or consolidating strokes.

For example, in the name "Saito" the Kaiji for "Sai" used to be 齏 in most cases. But now, 斉 is more commonly used.

The Kanji for "Ki" (steam; energy) is the radical 气 with the Kanji for rice 米 below it when written in the traditional Chinese way. The Character was a depiction of the steam arising from a pot of cooked rice. But the current Japanese version has a katakana "メ" below the radical instead of 米.

There are better examples but these are what I could think of now.

When something is difficult, what's required is a little more effort. To dumb-down the standard is not the answer.

[budd]

i got lost in asakusa
found a fire station
showed them a map (in kanji) of where i wanted to go
30 minutes later, i had my directions

[Leroy_Brown]

i got lost in asakusa
found a fire station
showed them a map (in kanji) of where i wanted to go
30 minutes later, i had my directions

Would've taken you 3 hours if the map was in English :D

[Emoni]

Keep in mind speed is a legit issue with Kanji. A friend of mine can read extremely fast and pick up on the meaning of a sentence just by glimpsing the Kanji (she's also extremely smart, but the kanji help too). Each of the Kanji has a meaning behind it, and some Japanese can pick up a Chinese newspaper and get a vague idea what is being talked about even if they don't speak chinese. Of course the number used is quite different so the amount you can gain by only know those Kanji used in Japan I assume without be very limited.

[corocoro]

漢字廃止なんてあり得ないです。 :okashii:
漢字は日本の大切な文化です。
平仮名とカタカナだけの文なんて読む気にならないもん 。
韓国の人はハングルだけの文章を読むのに苦労してるっ て記事読んだし、
わざわざ漢字を捨てる意味が無い。 :mad:

Abolish Kanji? It's impossible!
Kanji IS our precious culture.
I won't feel like reading texts written only with hiragana and katakana.
I've read an article that Korean people having a hard time reading texts
written only with Hangeul(Korean alphabet)(Is it ture? Lexico-san).
There is no point in abolishing Kanji anyway.

[Leroy_Brown]

漢字廃止なんてあり得ないです。 :okashii:
漢字は日本の大切な文化です。
平仮名とカタカナだけの文なんて読む気にならないもん 。
韓国の人はハングルだけの文章を読むのに苦労してるっ て記事読んだし、
わざわざ漢字を捨てる意味が無い。 :mad:

Abolish Kanji? It's impossible!
Kanji IS our precious culture.
I won't feel like reading texts written only with hiragana and katakana.
I've read an article that Korean people having a hard time reading texts
written only with Hangeul(Korean alphabet)(Is it ture? Lexico-san).
There is no point in abolishing Kanji anyway.


Sansei deeeesu! :D


Abolish the royalty instead. And the consumption tax.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Sansei deeeesu! :D

Abolish the royalty instead. And the consumption tax.


You insult the Japanese Imperial Family?

[lexico]

I'm not sure what "Sansei deeesu!" means. :relief:
Abolish the royalty instead. And the consumption tax.I think this part is meant as an irony 反語法, saying "I agree with Corocoro-san."
Perhaps meaning something like this?

"If you want to abolish kanji,
then remember that it is as serious as abolishing the Royal family and abolishing tax.
Is that possible ? Most certainly not !
Therefore you must not abolish kanji !"

However, maybe you have a point, Nagashima-san.
Perhaps in Japanese culture, it is not permitted to speak the Imperial name even for good-willed irony ? Is it a taboo ? :relief:

[lexico]

I've read an article that Korean people having a hard time reading texts written only with Hangeul (Korean alphabet)(Is it ture? Lexico-san).Short answer: While in reading, 1) verbalizing itself may be easier with the alphabetic han'gul, 2) getting the meaning in all its precision and evocative force of the languge is greatly diminished by not having hanja 漢字. Maybe it gives the appearance of ease without the 漢字, but I don't think even the younger generation with less 漢字 knowledge will appreciate this in the long run. My son has been taking private lessons in 漢字 to be prepared for the more 漢字 oriented culture, but in reality it has never never disappeared. The ignorant crowd don't care either way because they don't read, but slogans of "pure han'gul" usage has some superficial appeal to them.

Long answer: The Korean "experiment of purging" the language of all foreign influence has been futile and damaging in my opinion. In South Korea there were 4 phases to the purge pushed by the nationalists and purist linguists.

1. 1945-1964: 漢字倂用 1,000 Hanja's within parathenses or superscribed
2. 1964-1970: 漢字一部混用 1,300 Hanja's within parathenses, in grades 4-12
3. 1970-1975: 漢字除去 None; exceptions are Classical Korean/Chinese textbooks
4. 1975-present: 漢字部分倂用 1,800 Basic Hanja's in grades 7-12

In a poll of 2,000 Koreans adults above the age of 20 conducted by Gallup Inst. Korea in 1988 indicated that 70.9% Koreans believed that 漢字 is best taught in the elementary (primary) schools. Beginning in the late 1980's under the pressure of political activists and purists, newpapers and non-acedemic publications started to do without all 漢字's, and today none of the newspapers and many books and periodicals do not have any Hanja.

The result of this social experiment has had damaging effects on literacy and composition in people of vaious age groups due to the ever changing hanja policy 漢字政策. North Korea (DPRK) had abolished hanja education in 1945, but restored it in 1964 because of the damage to literacy. You can see a sample page of DPRK's 12th grade (中學 5年級) textbook in physical geogrpahy (http://www.hanja-edu.com/images/NK_1.jpg), and another sample page from DPRK's 漢文�ﾍ科書 (http://www.hanja-edu.com/images/NK_2.jpg), Pyong'yang, 1969.

In my case, I find the newpapers and non-hanja publications an annoyance when it comes to accuracy. When my reading concerns history, geography, religion, or just about any topic employing above-every day vocabulary, not having 漢字 is a hindrance and the cause of delay and undue waste of effort when I am looking for the exact, corresponding 漢字. The 1992 announcement of deregularizing 漢字 education therefore came as a welcome, and many young children the 2nd grade are taking extracurricular 漢字 classes. I hope this change continues in the positive direction of incorporating 漢字 as a regular subject of instruction in the elementary schools as in Japan.

[Mahoujin Tsukai]

Japanese text printed entirely in kana will be difficult to read! And an eyesore too :souka: .

[P_RayDub]

To abolish kanji would be disasterous, what about all of those japanese people who only know the japanese language? Taking away kanji would be like taking away english writing in the US. For example, if everybody started substituting computer abreviations for the english language just because most people know about it and it's "the thing to do" that would be messed up because not everybody understand what "ppl","lol",or "sry" means. If kanji was abolished then that would leave alot of japanese people confused.

[Mycernius]

I thought Americans had already done away with proper English spelling? :okashii:
(Sarcasm, I love it. This is going to wind someone up) :D :D

[Emoni]

Dun tink ud find mny mericns c dat as sarcasm, most prbbly will agree wit u ;p

[corocoro]

Sansei deeeesu! :D
Hai. :cool:


Abolish the royalty instead. And the consumption tax.
Actually I think the royalty is as much important as kanji for Japanese. But I'd agree with the tax. lol

[corocoro]

You insult the Japanese Imperial Family?
Hiroyuki-san こんにちは。 :wave:
屈辱と言うより皮肉交じりの冗談なんではないかと思い ます。

Konnichiwa Hiroyuki-san,
I guess it's more like a joke with an irony than insult.

[corocoro]

Perhaps in Japanese culture, it is not permitted to speak the Imperial name even for good-willed irony ? Is it a taboo ? :relief:
No, I's not a taboo or any thing. :-)

[Silverbackman]

To abolish kanji would be disasterous, what about all of those japanese people who only know the japanese language? Taking away kanji would be like taking away english writing in the US. For example, if everybody started substituting computer abreviations for the english language just because most people know about it and it's "the thing to do" that would be messed up because not everybody understand what "ppl","lol",or "sry" means. If kanji was abolished then that would leave alot of japanese people confused.

The main reason why I am a little against kanji is not only because of the difficulty, it somewhat shows that all Japan is a copycat from China. I mean, if you want to learn kanji why not study Chinese, which is more China unique than Japan unique. Japan's evolution of Hiragana and Katakana are Japan, kanji isn't necessarily Japan.

[corocoro]

Short answer: While in reading, 1) verbalizing itself may be easier with the alphabetic han'gul, 2) getting the meaning in all its precision and evocative force of the languge is greatly diminished by not having hanja 漢字. Maybe it gives the appearance of ease without the 漢字, but I don't think even the younger generation with less 漢字 knowledge will appreciate this in the long run. My son has been taking private lessons in 漢字 to be prepared for the more 漢字 oriented culture, but in reality it has never never disappeared. The ignorant crowd don't care either way because they don't read, but slogans of "pure han'gul" usage has some superficial appeal to them.

Long answer: The Korean "experiment of purging" the language of all foreign influence has been futile and damaging in my opinion. In South Korea there were 4 phases to the purge pushed by the nationalists and purist linguists.

1. 1945-1964: 漢字倂用 1,000 Hanja's within parathenses or superscribed
2. 1964-1970: 漢字一部混用 1,300 Hanja's within parathenses, in grades 4-12
3. 1970-1975: 漢字除去 None; exceptions are Classical Korean/Chinese textbooks
4. 1975-present: 漢字部分倂用 1,800 Basic Hanja's in grades 7-12

In a poll of 2,000 Koreans adults above the age of 20 conducted by Gallup Inst. Korea in 1988 indicated that 70.9% Koreans believed that 漢字 is best taught in the elementary (primary) schools. Beginning in the late 1980's under the pressure of political activists and purists, newpapers and non-acedemic publications started to do without all 漢字's, and today none of the newspapers and many books and periodicals do not have any Hanja.

The result of this social experiment has had damaging effects on literacy and composition in people of vaious age groups due to the ever changing hanja policy 漢字政策. North Korea (DPRK) had abolished hanja education in 1945, but restored it in 1964 because of the damage to literacy. You can see a sample page of DPRK's 12th grade (中學 5年級) textbook in physical geogrpahy (http://www.hanja-edu.com/images/NK_1.jpg), and another sample page from DPRK's 漢文�ﾍ科書 (http://www.hanja-edu.com/images/NK_2.jpg), Pyong'yang, 1969.

In my case, I find the newpapers and non-hanja publications an annoyance when it comes to accuracy. When my reading concerns history, geography, religion, or just about any topic employing above-every day vocabulary, not having 漢字 is a hindrance and the cause of delay and undue waste of effort when I am looking for the exact, corresponding 漢字. The 1992 announcement of deregularizing 漢字 education therefore came as a welcome, and many young children the 2nd grade are taking extracurricular 漢字 classes. I hope this change continues in the positive direction of incorporating 漢字 as a regular subject of instruction in the elementary schools as in Japan.
Thank you for the answer. I will read it later. :wave:

[Nosferatu1022]

The way I see it, aboloshing Kanji would be like aboloshing complete English words. :P

If you compare the two, Hirigana is like the seperation of English syllables, and Kanji are like complete English words in writing.

If the Japanese were to get rid of Kanji, it'd be like English speaking countries having to speak in nothing but syllables. :P

Writ-ing in syl-la-bles is sil-ly. :wave:

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Hiroyuki-san こんにちは。 :wave:
屈辱と言うより皮肉交じりの冗談なんではないかと思い ます。

Konnichiwa Hiroyuki-san,
I guess it's more like a joke with an irony than insult.

わかりました。

[ajm]

Several posters have brought up the well-heard argument that the sheer number of homonyms alone makes kanji irreplaceable.

If that is true, how do people manage to communicate in every-day, spoken Japanese, where there are no kanji?

[Ewok85]

Context. When you are speaking its easy to tell which homonym is being used, while in writing its not always possible to understand the tone or context that a word is being used in.

[elli_wants_tomodachi]

I have to say, it would make things easier. But what would Japanese writing be without Kanji? There would be no challenge, I think the kanji is a beautiful form of writing. Even my mum has difficult with the kanji, and she IS Japanese! :-)

[senseiman]

The main reason why I am a little against kanji is not only because of the difficulty, it somewhat shows that all Japan is a copycat from China. I mean, if you want to learn kanji why not study Chinese, which is more China unique than Japan unique. Japan's evolution of Hiragana and Katakana are Japan, kanji isn't necessarily Japan.

No offense, but this is about the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. I mean, look at how widespread the Roman alphabet is. Would it make any sense to Chastise the US (or any other western country) as a "copycat" because it uses a writing system that was developed in ancient Rome for a completely different language and culture? If not then I don't see how it would make any sense at all to fault Japan for using an alphabet it imported over 1500 years ago because it isn't purely "Japanese".

I should also note that Hiragana and Katakana aren't really "Japan" either as they too were originally derived from Chinese characters.

[-Rudel-]

Let's say they did abolished the Kanji (Except for En, and the numbers)...What would the new rules be?

1. Spaced out words

2. All foriegn words are Katakana

3. Words that have the same sounds/spelling, will be distinguished by a new tick mark. (*) as apposed to the traditional (" °)

4. Particals will be identified by using the apostrophe between the word and partical.

Example: げんき　です’か。 わたし’は　アメリカ’から　きます。　はじめました 。　どぞ　よろしく。


Confusing indeed. May take several years to get Japan to switch over and have all students that are currently in school learn the new way.

[ToMach]

Several posters have brought up the well-heard argument that the sheer number of homonyms alone makes kanji irreplaceable.
If that is true, how do people manage to communicate in every-day, spoken Japanese, where there are no kanji?
Many of the so-called homonyms have in fact different accent patterns, which enables to make the difference between them in the spoken language. But the writing system doesn't mark the accent, so kanji are very useful there. Also, the writen language uses much more complex words than the spoken language, but their meaning can sometimes easily guessed from the kanji.

Let's say they did abolished the Kanji (Except for En, and the numbers)...What would the new rules be
1. Spaced out words
2. All foriegn words are Katakana
3. Words that have the same sounds/spelling, will be distinguished by a new tick mark. (*) as apposed to the traditional (" °)
4. Particals will be identified by using the apostrophe between the word and partical.

I agree for 1, maybe 2. 3 is unnecessary if we mark word accent by a diacritic (ex: ' ). 4 is also unnecessary: we can just put a space between the word and the particle
ex: そ'れ　でも　かんじ　を　はいし　しない　ほ'う　が 　い'い　と　おもいま'す
I still think kanji should not be abolished

[Dream Time]

I am strongly against it!!

reason:
I am a Chinese, and I don't understand Japanese, when I read japanese I could kinda guess the meaning by reading the Kanji characters
if they are abolished then I won't be able to understand at all

[Suki-Yaki]

Let's say they did abolished the Kanji (Except for En, and the numbers)...What would the new rules be?

1. Spaced out words

2. All foriegn words are Katakana

3. Words that have the same sounds/spelling, will be distinguished by a new tick mark. (*) as apposed to the traditional (" °)

4. Particals will be identified by using the apostrophe between the word and partical.

Example: げんき　です’か。 わたし’は　アメリカ’から　きます。　はじめました 。　どぞ　よろしく。


Confusing indeed. May take several years to get Japan to switch over and have all students that are currently in school learn the new way.


Sounds to me quite the way westerners would like Japanese language to be , but this is not th west now is it ??

[Ewok85]

And for who would these changes have a benefit?
Lazy students of Japanese who think its "too hard/complex/absurd"

Theres some things I'd like to change about english, such as a standard English (English English). None of this American/Australia english etc. Abolish silent letters (which would just cause the same hononym problem...). Proper teaching of how grammar works.

[Mycernius]

And for who would these changes have a benefit?
Lazy students of Japanese who think its "too hard/complex/absurd"

Theres some things I'd like to change about english, such as a standard English (English English). None of this American/Australia english etc. Abolish silent letters (which would just cause the same hononym problem...). Proper teaching of how grammar works.
That's what Noah Webster did in America, and the reason why Americans spell some words differently to British English. Actually the silent letters in English were pronouced in the past, so 'Knife' would be said as it is spelt as goes for 'Know' and 'Knight'. Over the years the letters have lost their sound to become silent. That is why English now can be so difficult to spell. But this is found in other languages, even in Japanese. In some cases the 'u' or 'i' sound is lost ie: Desu, hajimemashite (Correct me if I'm wrong)

[Leroy_Brown]

I don't think "desu" was ever pronounced "deh soo" with a long "oo"

[RinoaRita]

I have mixed feelings. On one hand, I find kanji easier to read when there is furigana next to them. All hiragana seems cumbersome to read.

On the other hand, I was trying to read natsume soseki's sanshiro in japanese and I couldn't get through the first page because of all the kanji. I read the translated version in one night. I'd like to think of my self as fleunt conversationally. However, reading kanji is the biggest obstacle to me reading japanese literture. Maybe more books should have furigana?

I'm not sure how the situation is in Japan but I def. feel that it keeps the uneducated from knowing too much. You can't read the paper w/o knowing a lot of kanji, even if you know the words.

[P_RayDub]

The main reason why I am a little against kanji is not only because of the difficulty, it somewhat shows that all Japan is a copycat from China. I mean, if you want to learn kanji why not study Chinese, which is more China unique than Japan unique. Japan's evolution of Hiragana and Katakana are Japan, kanji isn't necessarily Japan.


I kinda figured that kanji was originaly invented by China, but so what? Most of Asia copy from eachother. China, Japan, Korea, all of them are related to one another so it's only natural to for each of those countries to borrow ideas. Why ruin a good thing?

[lexico]

I kinda figured that kanji was originaly invented by China, but so what? Most of Asia copy from eachother. China, Japan, Korea, all of them are related to one another so it's only natural to for each of those countries to borrow ideas. Why ruin a good thing?Good, healthy line of reason you have there and it's generally assumed true. Nevertheless, the middle part would make more sense if it was the other way around. Sharing the written langauge was the cause of these areas becoming related, at least during the historical period. I could be proven wrong, but that seems to make more sense right now.

Whatever, kanji, when dealt with with the right approach (study method) will prove vastly superior given the depth and width of traditional learning and understanding. Rita's difficulty is not her own, but shared by many new learners of the written langauge. There should be reasonable ways to achieve somewhat satisfying returns for the effort invested.

[Sukotto]

i like kanji
too bad i don't study any more

[Glenn]

On the other hand, I was trying to read natsume soseki's sanshiro in japanese and I couldn't get through the first page because of all the kanji. I read the translated version in one night. I'd like to think of my self as fleunt conversationally. However, reading kanji is the biggest obstacle to me reading japanese literture. Maybe more books should have furigana?

Note that Soseki wrote during the turn of the twentieth century, before the Japanese orthography was standardized. There were lots of kana conventions that would cause you headaches when trying to read his original prints, too. A lot of the kanji that he used are nowadays obsolete and/or simplified.

[epigene]

Note that Soseki wrote during the turn of the twentieth century, before the Japanese orthography was standardized. There were lots of kana conventions that would cause you headaches when trying to read his original prints, too. A lot of the kanji that he used are nowadays obsolete and/or simplified.
All recent publications of classic works have footnotes to explain conventions and readings that can no longer be found in modern Japanese. Natsume Soseki is actually relatively easy for a native Japanese with some education and is read by junior high school and high school students in Japan. Making it easier than what it is now is unthinkable for me. :bluush:

[Glenn]

That sounds like what I went through reading Shakespeare's plays in high school and college. Of course, Soseki is much closer to contemporary.

[Mal]

That sounds like what I went through reading Shakespeare's plays in high school and college. Of course, Soseki is much closer to contemporary.


Shakespeare's plays are nothing compared to trying to read Spensers The Faerie Queene. Wrap your head around this:


A Gentle Knight was *****ing on the plaine,
Y cladd in mightie armes and siluer shielde,
Wherein old dints of deepe wounds did remaine,
The cruell markes of many' a bloudy fielde;
Yet armes till that time did he neuer wield:
His angry steede did chide his foming bitt,
As much disdayning to the curbe to yield:
Full iolly knight he seemd, and faire did sitt,
As one for knightly giusts and fierce encounters fitt.
But on his brest a bloudie Crosse he bore,
The deare remembrance of his dying Lord,
For whose sweete sake that glorious badge he wore,
And dead as liuing euer him ador'd:
Vpon his shield the like was also scor'd,
For soueraine hope, which in his helpe he had:
Right faithfull true he was in deede and word,
But of his cheere did seeme too solemne sad;
Yet nothing did he dread, but euer was ydrad.



Imagine a couple hundred pages of that. :o

Oh I should add, I love Kaniji. :122:

[PaulTB]

A Gentle Knight was *****ing on the plaine
Got in the mile-high club did he? :p

[Mal]

Got in the mile-high club did he?


Well played. Golf clap.

[PaulTB]

Well played. Golf clap.
Well you know what they say,

"Once a King, always a King.
But once a (k)night is enough."

Incidently I tracked down the original text and here's that first line with anti-censor technique included.
"A Gentle Knight was prｉcking on the plaine,"

I won't say how I do that - although it's quite easy to figure out.

Ah! They plugged that loophole ^^;

Bet they haven't got the next one though.

[Arrowyn]

The main reason why I am a little against kanji is not only because of the difficulty, it somewhat shows that all Japan is a copycat from China. I mean, if you want to learn kanji why not study Chinese, which is more China unique than Japan unique. Japan's evolution of Hiragana and Katakana are Japan, kanji isn't necessarily Japan.

*shrug* - The Japanese took something good and ran with it. How is that a bad thing? It's not like they're all speaking Chinese; they borrowed the kanji, incorporated it into their language, and made it fit within their culture.

I think that kanji should not be abolished. Difficulty in learning is a very poor reason to abolish something as beautiful and useful as kanji.

[alexriversan]

the number of kanji was reduced to 2006, chinese has around 60.000 many not used in daily communication. now a complete english dictionary has 600.000 words, many of them not fully understood though being used.

what about rewriting western grammar rules: no gender, no future form, etc. and to write everything small. one would get an impression of japanese communication.

i like japanese poetry because it is short.
european poetry is more difficult to understand and its time is gone. now it is called rap/hip-hop, explicit content. alice in wonderland characters are smoking big pipes, illustrations inclusive. should it not get a label: explicit content as well: illustrating a political system out of usage (king and queen)

imagine a japanese fairytale with intellectual students freely debating all day and growing pot in the college backyard.

i try to point out japanese see us different than we see ourselves. i have not emitted opinions about rap/hip-hop. command "take it serious" not available

:bluush:

[Shooter452]

It has been a while since I set foot on Japanese soil, but my last encounter with the people of Japan leads me to believe that they would not even consider ditching kanji. Although the other, phonetic, alphabets get a lot of play in the culture, AFAIK the Japanese are fond of kanji, even if they are not expert with it.

Several people I knew on Okinawa related to me that they did not know more than half of the characters in kanji, while they regularly used and were quite comfortable with the phonetic characters (Hiragana/Katakana?). But they said that kanji was a part of the cultural soul of Japan and none were eager to discard it. While these individuals hardly constituted a random sampling of the Japanese people, I got the impression that this was a widespread feeling.

I know quite a few Americans who speak passing Japanese, and can negotiate the phonetic written language, but they are not masters of kanji at all. Since most (?) Japanese children learn something of the art in school, they seem to be more adept at it. Perhaps this is a thing that concerns mostly gaijin and not the locals?

Verba docent, exempla trahunt.

[senseiman]

Several people I knew on Okinawa related to me that they did not know more than half of the characters in kanji, while they regularly used and were quite comfortable with the phonetic characters (Hiragana/Katakana?). But they said that kanji was a part of the cultural soul of Japan and none were eager to discard it. While these individuals hardly constituted a random sampling of the Japanese people, I got the impression that this was a widespread feeling.

[/I]

Okinawa is kind of a special case because they imported the skill of writing at a much later date and they got it directly from Japan rather than China. Hiragana was the most commonly used writing system in the early Ryukyu kingdom because it could better represent the Okinawan language than Chinese characters, despite the fact that there are many sound in Ryukyugo that aren't represented in Kana.

But Okinawa also had a much closer relationship with China than Japan and was a tributary state right up until the 1870s, so Chinese writing and study of the classics was an important part of the education of the elite. This was the case in Japan too, but in Okinawa Chinese learning carried much higher prestige for a much longer time.

I suppose this doesn't have much to do with the subject at hand, but I thought it was interesting.

[Glenn]

I, too, think it's interesting. Thanks for posting! :bow::cool:

[=w=eezer]

Abolish it!!!!!! i hate kanji!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :p

[Glenn]

Now that's a well thought out argument. :okashii:

[-Rudel-]

Sounds to me quite the way westerners would like Japanese language to be , but this is not th west now is it ??

I really do not want to take that as a sarcastic comment.

I'm just forcasting a "what if" situation. As for ToMach. I'm not sure if he is Japanese or not, but....if he is...then there would be one Japanese point of view as opposed to a western living in Japan reading and writing it. That is, if he is Japanese and reads and writes fluently.

[epigene]

As for ToMach. I'm not sure if he is Japanese or not,
I'm just posting to say that, regardless of whether ToMach is Japanese or not, he is certainly a fluent Japanese speaker and/or person with outstanding level of understanding for Japanese linguistics. His past posts show that, and I respect his opinions.

As for me, I was born in Japan and lived here all my life (except for a few years in my youth spent in the US).

[Index]

Verba docent, exempla trahunt.

I say abolish Latin. Who knows what Shooter is saying to us...

[lexico]

-- Sorry posted on wrong topic :? Hey, good to see you here, Bamafan ! Any luck in the ladies' department lately ? :p I say abolish Latin. Who knows what Shooter is saying to us...Of all the fine things that Shooter said, you have nothing positive to say ?Verba docent, exempla trahunt. I think it means something like, "DECENT TALK IS LIKE A DOG." Now what's so difficult about that ? I could be wrong here and there. But I'm not responsible for it not being written in kanji, now am I ?
Just to be the devil's advocate (I'm not saying Shooter is the anticrhist), why not reintroduce latin, find a way to transcribe that in kanji, and from there teach greek in kanji instead of the greek alphabet ?
That would make greek so much easier to understands, a tad difficult to read for beginners for sure, but Index could figure out an easy way to do that. Wouldn't you say ?

[alexriversan]

languages are not writing symbols to express the same thing
as far as i know, languages can have more than one word for a thing
people who shout to abolish: you have worked out a better system, i.e. all world should speak english? say: "people speak english"- and you save the world- like spaniards saved south america from cruel sacrification to human crucification- because only one superhero died for all the christs.

take a cross down today and build a cemetery in front of your house
give me good reputation because promoting halloween

relationships like "godfather/holy mother" are not common in japan. japanese may ask when we will abolish these thoughts.

:-) http://www.madmag.com send mad replies there

promotion of candy made from sugar is unresponsible

[Index]

Of all the fine things that Shooter said, you have nothing positive to say ?I think it means something like, "DECENT TALK IS LIKE A DOG." Now what's so difficult about that ?

Well, I can positively say that I don't understand "Decent talk is like a dog". However it's not written in Greek kanji though is it, so I'm not surprised (although my own stupidity often surprises me). Maybe you translated it backwards Lexico, since you are the Devil's advocate?

Writing Greek in kanji backwards notwithstanding, I propose inventing a system for understanding languages that one doesn't know. Then I would be able to comprehend what alexriversan is trying to express...

[alexriversan]

Well, I can positively say that I don't understand "Decent talk is like a dog".
that's only 1/3 negative point: just "I don't understand ..."

However it's not written in Greek kanji though is it, so I'm not surprised (although my own stupidity often surprises me). Maybe you translated it backwards Lexico, since you are the Devil's advocate?

an irish saying: talk about the devil and the devil appears.
remarkable no attachment to a gender is done.

i assume most of you do not know the devil, just the devil would be something not good your parents told you. another example western people talk in concepts they do not fully understand.

mentioning "writing greek backwards in kanji": the greek have experienced enough hardships. i have read here greek grammar would have many cases, in contrast with japanese only a few.

a saying containing a greek city: to carry owls to athen

:55: buy flowers today :55: tell how they smell :55: can be considered as a positive contribution :55: have a little aromatherapy at home :55:

[梁铠赞]

漢字 Best...It helps you understand chinese a little bit and japanese...漢字 connect china with japan :-)

[alexriversan]

connect china with japan: you mean to build a bridge?

[梁铠赞]

connect china with japan: you mean to build a bridge?
of course not...:lol: wat i mean is....japanese can read kanji as kanji in japanese is almost da same with the chinese hanzi=kanji=汉字=漢字

[lexico]

10,000 yrs ago, there used to be a landbridge...

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/science/s3amhy2.jpg

Since 2,000+ yrs ago, we had the kanji bridge...hehe :win:

[梁铠赞]

In my opinion korean,japanese,mongolian,chinese are from the same root...bcause they look the same....anyone agree??

[alexriversan]

well they have in common: many different specialized symbols, usually thousands.

latin, kyrillic, greek etc. do only have a few symbols and combine words on abstract basis.

hiragana/katakana do this too, though derived from chinese symbols.
especially when emulating western words.

[darg]

Ok, so first off kanji actually make Japanese easier to read as I'm sure many have stated prior. Once you get past an elementary level in Japanese, kanji help to break up the sentence and allow you to see where the different words are and allow you to get alot more information out of a smaller area since the characters carry meanings with them.

Also, the vocabulary that use kanji in Japanese are easier to learn for Chinese people since many of them are Chinese derived, just like katakana words are often easier to learn for Westerners since a good majority of them are English derived (even though they like to screw with the meanings).

So, basically that means that kanji makes it easier for Japanese people (which is most important), Chinese students of Japanese, and basically anyone who takes the time to learn the characters. If you think kanji is impossible to learn then you're just contributing to the misconception that Japanese is a singularly unique language that's impossible to learn for westerners. I say just suck it up and help me prove them wrong! :-)

[fermento]

I say abolish Latin. Who knows what Shooter is saying to us...
yeah... :cool:


whatever cleans a language up should go......because then we can go for a more universal language like english

[lexico]

yeah... :cool:


whatever cleans a language up should go......because then we can go for a more universal language like englishSo you're saying Holocaust was justifiable to make way for a more superior race s.a. the Aryans ?
How convenient British logic can be ! :evil:

[RockLee]

yeah... :cool:


whatever cleans a language up should go......because then we can go for a more universal language like english
NONONO !! Languages are one of the most interesting things in human history, it's not ment to be forgotten ! :okashii:

hiragana/katakana do this too, though derived from chinese symbols.especially when emulating western words.
To my knowledge only Katakana is derived from Kanji...hiragana are a new set of signs :?

[alexriversan]

word for bad unrequired: it is ungood, plusungood and doubleplusungood- so far.

but we need to discriminate black rats from brown rats: rattus rattus versus rattus norvegicus. :45:

abolish the discussion about latin. nowadays it is a labelling system, a so called death language- no one speaks in it.

and of course all the street fighter series carrying VS. need to be rewritten.

black rats: nearly extinct in europe, prefer roofs, smaller than brown rats, big ears, good climbers. bubonic plague transfered by phleas living on these rats.

brown rats: more robust, every big city has them, they eat everything. they are not resposible for the bubonic plague.

now latin helps to discriminate between these rats. if you see a black rat, run!

[darg]

To my knowledge only Katakana is derived from Kanji...hiragana are a new set of signs :?

Nope, both are derived from kanji actually.

[fermento]

So you're saying Holocaust was justifiable to make way for a more superior race s.a. the Aryans ?
How convenient British logic can be ! :evil:

I've a feeling you wanna call me something,
and no i dont go with what you are saying....but if everyone spoke the same language it would be a lot easier to communicate, say like the way it is when talking to other people over the internet.

[梁铠赞]

To my knowledge only Katakana is derived from Kanji...hiragana are a new set of signs :?
Hiragana also derived from Kanji... :-)

[alexriversan]

I've a feeling you wanna call me somethingnothing for ungood about your age: if you translate this to japanese, it can (and will) be misunderstood :keitai:
nothing for ungood about your age means: you make an assumption.

[Shooter452]

I say abolish Latin. Who knows what Shooter is saying to us...
*LOL* The easy thing to do is search the Web for the translation. Where do you think I find them?

The tranlation: "Words instruct, illustrations lead." It is in reference to kanji being a pictogram alphabet.

Sorry, Index. I'm not trying to be a wiseass. This is not a case of intellectual posturing. I am not smart enough to be an "intellect." These are just attempts at being amusing and a challange for you to look them up. Latin is a "fun language" for me. After the juvenile years of being forced to "mouth the words" at Mass, now I can just use it for effect.

Besides...

Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

[RockLee]

Oh I see....can someone give an example maybe? :wave:

[lexico]

子曰 學而時習之 不亦說乎

Master said, "Study (it1) and often practice it2; (is that) not also pleasurable, oh !

notes:
This is a Classical Chinese sentence from Analects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analects) 論語 of 5th century BCE, but the Japanese have also studied the Confucian classics. Master should refer to Confucius 孔丘 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius)(551-479 BCE), but some doubt that because it could have been one of the early masters in the Confucian tradition before the saying was put to writing.
Kanji and English words have been arranged to correspond 1-1.
it 1, 2: refers to the way 道 of the Confucian practitioner 儒者, but some say it is the the way 道 of Daoism 道�ﾍ.
In your case, you can think of it as the kanjis 漢字.

"Study and often practice your kanji 漢字; isn't learning kanji 漢字 not also a pleasurable thing, oh !"

[Glenn]

Does anybody remember that Japanese tounge twister regarding gardens (にわ；庭）,
some kind of bird (also にわ）, and the fact that there were two of these birds there (this time 二羽 which is also にわ).

I think it was something along the lines of "there are two bird in my garden" ie. にわににわにわがいる、that is 庭ににわ二羽が居る, or something like that. It makes no sense in just kana.

I just saw this on the 和英交流 (wa-ei kouryuu) forum (http://forum.jeffevans.org/index.php):

uraniwa niwa niwa niwa niwa niwa niwa niwatori ga iru.

sumomomomomomomomomomomomonimoiroiroaru.

That second one is a killer. :shock:

[RockLee]

I just saw this on the 和英交流 (wa-ei kouryuu) forum (http://forum.jeffevans.org/index.php):



That second one is a killer. :shock:
yeah I knew that one....my gf told me...first time I was like ?_? na...nani ?

[Faustianideals]

Hiragana is a perfect japanese language to read and write in. It'd be much easier for everyone.

[Benjaqq]

To state that "kanji is basically a copy of Chinese" doesn't suggest the writer has a good grasp of how all languages develop over time.

I don't see there is any necessary to deny Kanji is derived from Chinese, 'coz it's universial knowledge that Chinese charactors are created by Chinese people, not by other people including Japnanese though they are now also using them!!maybe there is some difference between kanji and modern Chinese charactor, but dare anybody annouce that the Kanji is not a copy or imitation of Chinese charactor?!
Really foolish enough! and that's what make I hate Japanese----hypocritical, it seems that they are ungrateful----they are benefit from China in many sides, such as culture and technology. Though modern China so far is not comparable with Japan in many side, but definitely ancient China was powerful and advanced!~ :cool: you shall be proud to learn this great Chinese creation----Chinese charators from China!!

[Benjaqq]

I'm all for what you said! and you can say that again!!

[cyber ape]

Even if Kanji is grammatically important, Kanji is culture.

They haven't got rid of the fundoshi despite other undergarments, they still have the photons, they still have the Kabuki, etc etc.

:bluush:

[pinkkillerkisou]

I'm taking Japanese (first level) in college right now and I must say Kanji is a bit hard but it takes time as with all things. It's really fun. It's easy once you start getting used to it. If you have a pictorial memory (most people do) then once you get the hang of it it's pie!

Besides how boring would it be if we had another romanized language. Characters are more fun. :p

[XTC33]

Kanji is one of the reasons why I started to learn Japanese, ideographic and logographic symbols are fun and once you see how the hen and tsukuri and kanmuris
work (the left, right and top part) the kanji world starts to dance!!
A pity that mainland China has simplified kanji, but seem the Taiwanese has managed to keep the old kanjis, GJ! :cool:

[Meiki]

It's funny how you say Chinese kanji as it is originally Chinese. In China they called it hanzi, I think. Anyway, a friend of mine said mainland China is using the original hanzi more and more, because the number of educated people is growing.

[nhk9]

It's funny how you say Chinese kanji as it is originally Chinese. In China they called it hanzi, I think. Anyway, a friend of mine said mainland China is using the original hanzi more and more, because the number of educated people is growing.

I agree with what your friend said about the increase of use of "traditional" characters. Nowadays, in many Chinese soap-ops, the use of traditional characters is much more visible, especially in the subtitles of these dramas. Just 10 years ago, virtually none of the dramas would have used non-simplified characters.

There's also this theory about how simplified characters are easier (and faster) to write, yet the traditional characters are easier to read. Maybe that's one of the reasons why there's a shift in using more traditional characters. Personally I am in favour of using some simplified characters that may make writing easier (such as in the case of the Japanese surname "saito"), but I am not in favour of replacing characters with an easier-to-write version that has absolutely nothing to do with the original word (a typical example would be in the case for the word "back", in Chinese. "後"is replaced by"后", simply because both have identical sounds.

[ricecake]

Nowadays,in many Chinese soap-ops,the use of traditional characters is much more visible,especially in the subtitles of these dramas.

Personally I am in favour of using some simplified characters that may make writing easier (such as in the case of the Japanese surname "saito").





There is a gradually use of more Traditional Chinese recent years inside Mainland China,however Simplified version is kept intact in education.As of now,the widely usage of traditional Chinese limited in private business sector.Many if not all film DVD/VCD's have both Simplied and Traditional subtitle versions we can choose with remote control.

I support simplify certain difficult to write Chinese characters with over 25 or many strokes,as in word examples like " change " and " hair ".

[Mars Man]

Hey !! Ricecake san !! Tell me...since this thread's OP has been resting in peace for a while, and you have posted here in this line of thought, is the Chinese character for the English 'bald' the same as that for the English 'hair' but with just a few (or a whole lot more) less strokes? hee, hee, hee.....MM

[yukio_michael]

I find Kanji fun to learn, and its oddly one of the one things I can be sure of at least studying a little bit each day... My tuttle cards, and my own kanji compound cards litter my desk...

...that said, I think that Kanji definitely add to the difficulties for foreigners living in Japan. Legal documents concerning immigration are written in a kanji-centric verbose form & the translated versions of these documents are not always up to date with the Japanese documents.

I don't think that Japan should, or will, change its writing system, but kanji does present a great cultural barier to full integration.

[ricecake]

Hey !! Ricecake san !!

is the Chinese character for the English 'bald' the same as that for the English 'hair' but with just a few (or a whole lot more) less strokes ?





The Chinese character for " bald " has close to 10 strokes versus nearly twice as much for " hair ".

One better word example is the character "animal ",it's challenging in writing.

Back to thread topic,there was a debate in Japan back in mid-late 19th century whether or not to abolish Kanji as Japanese witnessed the collapse of Sinosphere in the region,it never materialized evidently.

[Mars Man]

Thanks ricecake san !! Yeah, Chinese characters are fine, but, as I often tell my students . . . kanji wa amari kanjirarenai kara ne... (I can't feel Chinese characters so well, so. . .)

[kamaru]

すみません　but I find this question unreasonable !
Wiping out Kanji is almost like erasing all 日本語.You can't take out the soul of the language , the connoted and historical meanings, the actual beauty of learning 日本語.Besides I think that only lazy people who just don't want to learn Kanji ask for such a request.
ありがとう　for letting me share my opinion. I'd like to know if anyone shares the same opinion with me.
またね！

[GodEmperorLeto]

The problem with kanji lies not in its cultural value, which is vast, but rather in its efficiency in the modern world. Learning it takes much longer than learning an alphabetic language and its associated phonics rules (and before you complain about English, please realize that English is a mish-mash of about 4 different languages, but it still has less phonetic rules than kanji has characters).

At the end of the Bronze Age, from Iran to Italy, every single major civilization abandoned ideogramic and syllabic scripts in favor of alphabetic ones. Cuneiform and hieroglyphics became ceremonial knowledge, held only by the priesthoods and the sages. The reason was simple: alphabets are easier to learn. In these ancient languages, a letter was almost always pronounced the same in every case that it was written, so phonics rules were simple. Learning to read was no longer the province of the priests or the aristocracy. Literacy was still low, but compared to the Bronze Age, it was much higher.

Why do I bring this up? Because, in many ways, the Japanese are still stuck in the late Bronze Age when it comes to writing. However, it does not seem to be detrimental. Now, I've never lived in Japan, and have no idea how literate or illiterate they are compared to other cultures. But it seems to me that they do not have any problems.

What is difficult, however, is the transition of their system to the modern keyboard. It is also difficult for someone who has learned to read an alphabetic system to learn an ideographic system. As ricecake pointed out, it takes twice the number of brushstrokes to write "bald" than "hair" in the original Chinese character. Some characters are simple, others are incredibly complex, requiring minute strokes to write, and requiring more energy to discern. It takes six or seven strokes to write the word "bald" out, letters and all, in English, though. So which system is more expedient?

The Chinese system is beneficial because of the vast language gaps in the country. It was devised so that it could be read from one end of the empire to the other. This is almost the equivalent of having a letter written by a man in Canada who only speaks Inuit that can be read by a man who only speaks Quebecois, American English, or Mexican Spanish.

Despite the cultural reasons to retain their traditional methods of writing, the ancient civilizations of the Near East and West all abandoned them in favor of alphabets. Even the Greeks abandoned the Linear A syllabary they had in favor of their more versatile and (for their language) appropriate alphabetic system. That the Chinese haven't is evident due to their unique situation. Even though the Koreans have developed a very unique alphabetic-style system, the Japanese have retained their traditional kanji-hiragana-katakana system, which is difficult for foreigners to learn, and cumbersome to utilize in the modern world of computers.

Perhaps some, such as Maciamo, might suggest they retain it because of its inaccessability to foreigners, suggesting insularity and ethnocentrism to be the reason they retain it. I, for one, would agree that insularity plays a small role, but it is more because of cultural pride in the uniqueness of the system, rather than ethnocentrism. It helps make Japan Japan. In addition, it seems to serve its people well (again, I am working on limited information here, though). The benefits of ease of learning and efficiency when writing or typing are not strong enough incentives to do what the Egyptians, Phoenicians, and Persians did.

[undrentide]

Hmmm... I'm under the impression that most people who say kanji is unnecessary or inefficient are those who are not fluent in Japanese. In fact, kanji creats great efficiency especially in reading.

Following is a part of an article from Asahi.com.

日中首脳会談は８日午後に
安倍首相は８日朝、政府専用機で中国・北京に出発し、 同日午後に歓迎式典で迎えられた後、胡錦涛（フー・チンタオ）国家主席との首脳会談を行う。前後に温家宝（ウェン・チアパオ）首相、 呉邦国（ウー・パンクオ）全国人民代表大会常務委員長（国会議長に 相当）とも会談し、夜には温首相主催の晩餐（ばんさん ）会が予定される。

Since kanji has meaning, we can understand the content of the text at a glance. I forgot where I read it, so I cannot give the backing source (pity), but some test proved that average time required to get the same amount of information from English text and Japanese (mixture of kanji, kana) text, Japanese text takes far less time compared with English - because of kanji.

にっちゅうしゅのうかいだんは８かごごに

あべしゅしょうは８かあさ、せいふせんようきでちゅう ごく・ぺきんにしゅっぱつし、どうじつごごにかんげい しきてんでむかえられたあと、フー・チンタオこっかしゅせきとのしゅのうかいだんをおこ なう。ぜんごにウェン・チアパオしゅしょう、ウー・パンクオぜんじんみんだいひょうたいかいじょうむい いんちょう（こっかいぎちょうにそうとう）ともかいだ んし、よるにはウーしゅしょうしゅさいのばんさんかいがよていされる。

Without kanji, it is difficult to see where a word/phrase starts and ends, also it takes ages to understand the text correctly - かいだん? Is it steps, ghost story or conference? せい　ふせん　ようき? Holy post-it vessel? Oh no, it's せいふ　せんよう　き - chartered government jet! こっかいぎちょう に そうとう? National Assembly Chairman and President? No, it means "equivalent of National Assembly Chairman".... Telegraph used to be printed in katakana only, and that caused many mistakes and problems.*
(Besides, hiragana takes up a lot more space than kanji - another advantage, efficiency of kanji is a few syllables can be covered just by one kanji.)

Kanji makes it easy to understand.
:cool:

Personally I find the opinion that the complicated writing system of Japanese language is used to prevent foreigners to integrate, or make it hard to access for them, etc. really absurd.
Japanese language is first and foremost the communication tool for Japanese speakers. We use it daily, we need to convey our thoughts and ideas, everything, correctly and efficiently. We have no reason to make it too complicated or difficult.
It is not something we created to keep ourselves to ourselves and not to let foreigners understand us! If kanji were a factor to make our daily communication too compliated or difficult, would we bother to use them and make our life difficult, just for the people who do not have to speak it and use it daily? No!

Japanese written in romaji is even worse.
Before Japanese word processor and internet were introduced, international communication was quite limited. I was at the very end of the generation that used telex (and no longer with paper tapes, there already was monitors with keyboard to send out messages). Fax was still expensive, so daily communication was made by telex. You can use only alphabets and limited number of marks, and it was really difficult to communicate Japanese people overseas - writing is not too bad, but reading Japanese in romaji is - like hell.

*off-topic note:
Funny (and maybe famous) example
(1)
Telegraph sent by a son to his father:
カネオクレタノム
The father replied
ダレニモラッタ、アマリノムナ
(Who gave it to you? Don't drink too much)
Actually the son meant カネ　オクレ　タノム (Send money, please) but the father misunderstood it for カネオクレタ　ノム (got money, I'll drink).

(2)
A journalist from a newspaper visited another journalist from another paper for an interview. When leaving, the journalist asked to send a telegraph on his behalf, to tell them he's going back.
キシャノキシャハキシャデキシャ
which sounds very confusing, and actually means
貴社の記者は汽車で帰社
The journalist of your company is going back to the office by train.

[Sukotto]

Without kanji, it is difficult to see where a word/phrase starts and ends, also it takes ages to understand the text correctly


That could be adjusted by placing spaces between words like these.

For words that sound the same/have the same writing, context would be used.


I am not in favor of getting rid of Kanji, I just wanted to suggest that.
:bow:

[undrentide]

That could be adjusted by placing spaces between words like these.
For words that sound the same/have the same writing, context would be used.
I am not in favor of getting rid of Kanji, I just wanted to suggest that.
:bow:

Yes, it is possible to make it less difficult - I don't think it is impossible to read or understand without kanji, but still it will be extremely difficult and the disadvantage will be way far bigger than the advantage (do not have to learn so many kanji, easy to write, etc.) That's what I wanted to emphasize.
:-)

[ricecake]

Just my 2 cents ...



The opinion of common Japanese only matters to me for they know what's best for them and their country,shame on those irrational Koreans.

Kanji does have it's values,I am not linguistic enough to expand it in greater details ( read : Lexicon's old posts can shed some light ).

[Sukotto]

Just my 2 cents ...
The opinion of common Japanese


This is good stuff.
Since language is ever evolving and evolves from everyday usage of everybody, perhaps suggesting that language should not be managed from on high with mandates for such changes?

[JimmySeal]

*off-topic note:
Funny (and maybe famous) example
(1)
Telegraph sent by a son to his father:
カネオクレタノム
The father replied
ダレニモラッタ、アマリノムナ
(Who gave it to you? Don't drink too much)
Actually the son meant カネ　オクレ　タノム (Send money, please) but the father misunderstood it for カネオクレタ　ノム (got money, I'll drink).

Wouldn't it be カネヲクレタノム? Cuz カネオクレタ means "The money was late."　 Maybe they don't use ヲ in telegraphs, but I figured they did.

[caster51]

kanji is also the japanese history.
even ordinary japanese can read and undersuand old documents.
therefore , the authority can not fake the history and propagate ppl like korea.
to ablish kanji is an erasure of japanese history.

[undrentide]

Wouldn't it be カネヲクレタノム? Cuz カネオクレタ means "The money was late."　 Maybe they don't use ヲ in telegraphs, but I figured they did.

Very much likely. The truth is, it is a sort of myth or joke that has been circulated for quite a long time (don't know the origin but surely more than 30-40 years), and misunderstanding part I picked up from internet, there might be different versions (such as the one you mentioned which makes more sense)...
:hey:

[ricecake]

To state that " kanji is basically a copy of Chinese " doesn't suggest the writer has a good grasp of how all languages develop over time.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bones


This is the foundation of Kanji ( Chinese characters ),both past and present.

[dark_secrester]

No chance!
Kanji is chinese, whilst kana is based from kanji sumbols.
Example:
Kanji: 二　（に）　two
Katakana: ニ　（Read　に）

Also, there are many kanji that have the same reading even though they have different meanings! It would become confusing beyond anything!

KEEP KANJI

[Skullcrushergurl]

Hm. Well. I think that--even though kanji can be veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy hard-- kanji should stay around. It's important. That's their language. We don't change english for those who cannot speak it. That's the problem with us dang english speakers!!

[White Girl]

I voted "maybe." I can read all the daily use kanji and more, and I think it is MUCH easier to read something in kanji than without, but on the other hand, I think that this may simply be because I am USED to it. If I were used to say, reading everything in hiragana, then that might be easiest for me. They abolished kanji in Korea, and the people do not seem the worse off for it. It seems like there is a bit more freedom when the language is merely phonetic, but it loses some artistic quality.

I do think it might be best to further standardize kanji. As in, make each kanji have only two standard readings--the Chinese reading and the Japanese reading. If the Chinese reading was the same every time for compound words, there would be a lot less confusion. I say this because even though I can read kanji just fine now, occasionally I will come across a compound or rare letter I can't read. Then I ask my husband how it's read...and he never knows either. It is a bit silly to have people who are literate but still cannot read many things. Then again it does add a certain "elite" feeling the more you can read, but it's not that practical. There will ALWAYS be kanji/readings you do not know, even if they are few.

The う/お distinction is also rather useless in situations like...遠い（とおい） and お父さん（おとうさん）. The pronunciation is the same, but it uses different hiragana. Unifying this would make the language more streamlined. Ask a Japanese person if they can write 十日 in hiragana. Most will write とうか, which is wrong!

Also, I'm in favor of eliminating katakana. I do not really see the point except to show that something is "foreign," which to me is a really unnecessary distinction. There are situations when katakana is used for emphasis or sound, but it's not enough to justify having a whole 'nother syllabary for. Katakana used to be useful because it was used like hiragana today. Now it's not really useful, though. Eliminating katakana would streamline Japanese.

But those are just my B.S. opinions and I'm really fine with the current system. I just thought they would be interesting ideas. And truthfully, if they changed it now, I would be quite inconvenienced because I learned it the old way. But I do think it would be more practical. But there would be a lot of people angry about it and it would never happen anyway!

[scorpion da black]

kanji is fun and it represents japan
plus it is so fun to have some charecters to represent ur self with instead of words

[sigmentofb]

No way ever. Why should they change their system of language to suit the needs of foreigners?

[dark_secrester]

Hm. Well. I think that--even though kanji can be veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy hard-- kanji should stay around. It's important. That's their language. We don't change english for those who cannot speak it. That's the problem with us dang english speakers!!

No, we english speakers don't change our language. We change all of our laws and customs instead.

[orochi]

Kanji is great. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[deathtokanji]

Kanji makes me cry:(
The elegance and genius of written language is in how simply it can convey complex ideas. Kanji is an archaic, primitive, totally obsolete (am I being redundant here? :cool:) writing system.
It requires memorizing unnecessarily complex and intricate character sets that have multiple meanings, depending on their combinations. Time consuming and difficult to write, they are there only to serve a 'literate' elite and change reading and writing from a gift to everyone to the tool and power source of an elite few.

God damn all kanji, the sooner they adopt an alphabet system such as the West uses, the better life will be for all.

[TwilightMoon777]

I think they should keep it around. It's what makes them different. A lot of other countries use the alphabet system, so it's good to have something different. Who cares if it is hard to learn? Everything is hard to learn when you are first starting off. Why get rid of it just to appease people who may be to lazy to put in the time to learn it?

[JimmySeal]

have multiple meanings, depending on their combinations.
Isn't this true of all writing systems?

Time consuming and difficult to write, they are there only to serve a 'literate' elite and change reading and writing from a gift to everyone to the tool and power source of an elite few.
Actually Japan has one of the highest literacy rates in the world. I know some "literate elite" students, as you call them, who live in a shack across the street from me.

[deathtokanji]

Isn't this true of all writing systems?


Actually Japan has one of the highest literacy rates in the world. I know some "literate elite" students, as you call them, who live in a shack across the street from me.

If all you say say is true then why did another poster comment about how their train station signs include the hiragana/katakana as subtext? I should think it's obvious that pictographic based character systems suffer from unnecessary complexity, obscuring meanings, requiring extra steps to learn and understand and memorize, etc. Language and writing should strive for clarity, as I described in my first post.

[tokapi]

Kanji is great.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.



Give me 5 ,bro :wave:

Good analogy :cool:

[JimmySeal]

If all you say say is true then why did another poster comment about how their train station signs include the hiragana/katakana as subtext? I should think it's obvious that pictographic based character systems suffer from unnecessary complexity, obscuring meanings, requiring extra steps to learn and understand and memorize, etc. Language and writing should strive for clarity, as I described in my first post.

The kanji used in place names are often not among the set needed to be "literate." They could just render the station names in kana alone, but for those that can read the places' names, they serve as a faster and more pleasant visual marker than the kana.

[deathtokanji]

The kanji used in place names are often not among the set needed to be "literate." They could just render the station names in kana alone, but for those that can read the places' names, they serve as a faster and more pleasant visual marker than the kana.


If an individual can't even know how to sound verbally an unfamiliar place name without a more efficient writing system as subtext, then that writing system fails fundamentally to perform as a writing system. The kanji system foils verbal communication because of that weakness.

[JimmySeal]

If an individual can't even know how to sound verbally an unfamiliar place name without a more efficient writing system as subtext, then that writing system fails fundamentally to perform as a writing system.
Woah woah, at what point did you establish that kana is more efficient? I'd say it's the other way around.

The kanji system foils verbal communication because of that weakness.
Japanese seem to be verbally communicating just fine.

[deathtokanji]

Woah woah, at what point did you establish that kana is more efficient? I'd say it's the other way around.


Japanese seem to be verbally communicating just fine.

If people have no idea how to pronounce something without a second character set, whatever it might be, then this shows that kanji fails as a writing system. I'm not saying that katakana is perfect; simply that kanji should be discarded.

[JimmySeal]

Your arguments only beg the question. Where is it written that a writing system's purpose is to be accessible to those that can't read it?

Many English words can't be read without a second writing system (IPA) or at least by twisting it into a convoluted phonetic guide. Does that mean the English alphabet fails as a writing system? The Japanese writing system is kanji+hiragana+katakana. None is required to stand on its own without the others. So a place name could be expressed solely in kana, but the kanji is provided for embellishment, not the other way around.

[tokapi]

There is always someone @ Japan-oriented forum calls for complete elimination of Kanji in Japanese script for the sake of simplicity,it's a complex writing system doesn't appeal to certain people.Of-course,those individuals don't understand many written documents would be illegible without Kanji and not able to tell the difference between one word from another when " ambiguity " arises.

[Mars Man]

To some degree I agree, deathtokanji san, with your observations, yet have to stop short of reaching the conclusions you seem to have reached.

One thing to keep in mind here regarding written symbols, is that with younger folks, say in the first half of elementary school, and for variation of visual aesthetics, hiragana is used in the main, in place of more difficult or advanced forms, or as sub-texts in support of those.

Verbal communication, of course, has very little relation to the written forms symbolizing it beyond just that, as brought out by JImmySeal.

[scorpion da black]

If people have no idea how to pronounce something without a second character set, whatever it might be, then this shows that kanji fails as a writing system. I'm not saying that katakana is perfect; simply that kanji should be discarded.

if you hate kanji so much then stick to your own language......would u like some one to tell u to adopt some other form for ur language???

the japanese are proud of their writing system and i think it is rude to tell them what to do.
they should choose wether to use kanji or not..........and maybe kanji is hard for u coz u r a slow memorizer...........kanji is easy for me for example....
i have memorized couple of hundreds and their combinations in less than 2 months

[kireikoori]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bones
This is the foundation of Kanji ( Chinese characters ),both past and present.
Actually, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiahu_script) is even older than Oracle Bone Script. Probably where Oracle Bone Script originates from.

Anyway most cultures copy. The "Romaji" we use can be traced back to the writing system the Phoenician alphabet. Yet we're not Lebanese. And the Phoencian system orginates from Ugarit.

Anyway, I think it's neat how Japan uses several writing systems. Kanji, Kana(Hiragana & Katakana) and romaji.

[Chidoriashi]

Yeah, I second or third or 10th the notion that the people here who think Japanese would be better off without Kanji, probably cannot read much Kanji and have a very limited understanding of the Japanese language.

Japanese without kanji.. its just absurd. Yes its tough at first, but once you get enough of them down.. 800 or so maybe.. they start to become a very useful tool in increasing your vocabulary and reading comprehension. Its like suffixes and prefixes in English, such as in-crease, in-cline, de-crease, de-cline. etc... only its way better cuz there are way more of them you can put to use. You can just guess the meanings of new words simply by being able to associate their Kanjis with other words you already know. Its a great system and I think the people who are against it are the ones that cannot read Japanese. Which basically means, they dont know what they are talking about. And if you can read Japanese and are somehow against it.. well.. I'd love to hear your theory on why. A voice for the abolishment of Kanji coming from anyone other than those who can fully read Japanese should not be taken seriously.

[deathtokanji]

The simple fact that you need to memorize 800 or so kanji simply to become literate is proof in itself that the writing system should be discarded. As a person learning the language who is knowledgeable about 4 other European languages...I can say that I know enough about languages to know when one uses a primitive system. It is also capable of using the same features of word similiarities to hint at the probable meaning of a word. There's a reason why cultures adopted the phonecian based writing system. It is simple, elegant and much more powerful!:-)

[pugtm]

oh thats an easy question to answer
NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
It would take the fun outa life!!!:p

[JimmySeal]

The bottom line is, logistical arguments aside, Japanese culture is inextricably intertwined with kanji, and to abolish it would be to attack Japanese culture at its core. To vehemently call for the abolition of kanji, you must be either ignorant of that fact, or exceedingly callous.

The simple fact that you need to memorize 800 or so kanji simply to become literate is proof in itself that the writing system should be discarded.
It is? How d'you figure?

I can say that I know enough about languages to know when one uses a primitive system.
And...?


It is also capable of using the same features of word similiarities to hint at the probable meaning of a word.
I can guarantee that none of those other languages you know has homonyms to the degree that Japanese does.

Japanese has at least 292 morphemes pronounced "kou," 236 pronounced "shou," and 109 pronounced "kei." And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Can you say anything remotely like that for any other language you know?

[orochi]

Japan has one of the highest literacy rates in the world. Even people living on the street can read a newspaper. There is nothing wrong with kanji.

[kireikoori]

I think everyone in the world should learn Kanji based characters and Roman characters should be abolished. :P

[bakaKanadajin]

orochi I like your avatar :)

I'm struggling with kanji and my frustration can peak sometimes as I try to memorize them, and not just their form and stroke order but their different readings and radicals and BAHHH..but, I still dont think abolishing kanji would be a good idea. So many good reasons not to, and very few good reasons to do it.

[orochi]

I can't think of a single good reason to abolish kanji. It would totally turn the language upside down and the effort it would take to recover would be tremendous.

[bakaKanadajin]

Kanji makes me cry:(
The elegance and genius of written language is in how simply it can convey complex ideas. Kanji is an archaic, primitive, totally obsolete (am I being redundant here? :cool:) writing system.
It requires memorizing unnecessarily complex and intricate character sets that have multiple meanings, depending on their combinations. Time consuming and difficult to write, they are there only to serve a 'literate' elite and change reading and writing from a gift to everyone to the tool and power source of an elite few.

God damn all kanji, the sooner they adopt an alphabet system such as the West uses, the better life will be for all.

I just noticed this post.I will give you one thing, a language with so many similar sounding words can be confusing when spoken. But that's it. We're discussing the written language here since we're on the topic of kanji. So as a written tool, how can you possibly argue kanji is primitive? If something is difficult, more complex and takes time to master but ultimately yields more versatility and reduces ambiguity..in your opinion it's automatically primitive? What kind of ***-backward logic is that?

[orochi]

I'm surprised this thread has gone as long as it has seeing as the OP has made pretty much zero argument for his main points.

"Kanji is an archaic, primitive, totally obsolete"

How is it archaic? How is it primitive? How is it obsolete?

I wish him luck proving a living language to be obsolete. I'm not sure he understands the words he's using.

[Chidoriashi]

Orochi> Like I said before, anyone who thinks Kanji should be abolished but cannot read Japanese at, at least, an 8th grade level should not be taken seriously. The think they know what they are talking about, but without knowing the langauge they have no clue. And to all of us who do read Japanese they pretty much sound insane cuz we understand all the things they don't.

[orochi]

Yeah, it's sort of like running into an English language forum and declaring that consonants are obsolete and should be removed because they destroy the fragile, simple, perfect system of five vowels that can be used to pronounce anything.

[takoyaki girl]

hmmm.. though i myslef is not a fan of kanji.. i dont think they should abolish it. kanji has already been part of the "japan" we know now. and besides, even if kanji gives me a hard time when i travel sometimes, it makes my trip more exciting. (^^,)

[Goldiegirl]

It's their language and it works for them. I just don't ever see Japanese becoming a world language. But then who cares? It works in Japan and that's what counts. I think it's beautiful to look at. I wish I knew more than my last name, but that's a start.

[orochi]

Japanese being "their language" and whatnot is a moot argument.
Japanese becoming a world language is also a moot statement.
Be more realistic.

[Faustianideals]

You never know what might happen. Orochi, I don't think anyone is expecting Japanese to become the official language of multiple countries anytime soon. If Japan enters a seat of power in the global community, then it could be expected, but not at the moment.

I for one would not want Japan to abolish Kanji, it's sorta like the USA abolishing proper English and replacing it with internet slang like, "lol" or "wtf". The very prospect of that happening frightens me.

[mu99le]

I'd like to see japanese with kanji, written japanese looks prtty good for me, it has kinda good balence mixed with kanji,nihongo.. all cultures have points in sharing during long history no one really cares.

[Shidenkai]

Kanji are the soul of modern and old japanese literature... don't leave them!

[Sukotto]

it's sorta like the USA abolishing proper English and replacing it with internet slang like, "lol" or "wtf". The very prospect of that happening frightens me.

This is interesting. Why not? If there is one truism of human language is that it is always evolving. I know there are some people who get upset when you don't use "proper" English. But if you ever study a 2nd language you can see that what is in a dictionary or what you learn is referred to as "textbook language". I maintain that dictionaries are not rule books of a language, but rather more like a guidebook.

漢字は好きです。 I like kanji.
Given the history of how it transfered from Chinese culture into Japanese, at two major times by Japanese studying Buddhism and returning with it (if I am not mistaken), perhaps kanji will be transferred to other cultures and languages as well. Say English. This time perhaps by young people via their interest in video games, anime/manga, and pop music. It wouldn't be a bad thing. We are one big human family anyway, that we can learn other languages is proof of that.

[Chidoriashi]

Sukotto> Umm actually it should be 漢字が好きです。 "suki" is never preceded by "wa" in a regular statement. Saying "Kanji wa suki" is like saying Kanji likes..... something. "wa" can only precede "suki" when showing contrast. “魚は嫌いだけど肉は好き” (sakana wa kirai dakedo niku wa suki") I hate fish, but I do like meat.
Not trying to pick on you or anything, but people seem to make this mistake a lot on this forum. So I just thought I would help you out.

Also to add to your comment Kanji was transferred to lots of different cultures. Many south east Asian countries once used Kanji.. or Hanzou (whatever it is called in Chinese)... at one time or another throughout their histories.

[Elizabeth]

Sukotto> Umm actually it should be 漢字が好きです。 "suki" is never preceded by "wa" in a regular statement. Saying "Kanji wa suki" is like saying Kanji likes..... something. "wa" can only precede "suki" when showing contrast. “魚は嫌いだけど肉は好き” (sakana wa kirai dakedo niku wa suki") I hate fish, but I do like meat.
Not trying to pick on you or anything, but people seem to make this mistake a lot on this forum. So I just thought I would help you out.
Whether it was deliberate or not, Scott got across his love of kanji over whatever would replace it. The contrast/emphasis need not be explicit to work. Of course we should ask before correcting. It's just difficult since he's hardly around enough anymore...:wave:

[Chi65]

Can I help, please?
The word is Hanzi (chinese original language and meaning: Han=chinese, zi=sign, note), by the way, and they are the origins for other countries, not the japanese Kanji.
The Japanese took it over from China, left, what was usefull and also reduced some to their better understanding when they created their own systems.
One by Kobo Daishi, also known as Kukai, who invented the first own writing system in Japan, the Hiragana syllable system, whose signs are still easy to relate back to the Hanzi, but fitted the own system more clearly, while the Hanzi, now called Kanji in japanese, as long as they still made sense, simply additionally remained.
To this, much later Katakana was added, which helped integrating foreign words and meanings. Also Katakana still is an even more simplified version of some original Hanzi.
Thus, there is a certain red line between them all.

As for Kobo Daishi, aka Kukai, see for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%ABkai

and

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Kukai

And by the way, no chance to make them give it all up, gladly, its also the base for and beginning of art and visualisings.

Greetings!

(I hope, I have not mixed up Hiragana and Katakana once more, which sometimes happens, if so, just switch the names)

[kameron]

No way should Japan abolish Kanji.

Well, Korea abolished Hanja (same thing as kanji) over about 300 years and introduced the "space" instead, seems to work okay. They still use various symbols in South Korea but generally it's only ever for place names or people's names. In North Korea it's been pretty much completely abolished.

If Kanji is phased out it's not gonna be the end of the world, but I love kanji, it's an exciting challenge for me, the JSL (never used that term before) student, and what's more it DOES make Japanese a lot easier to read once you know the characters.

[cory_cpd]

no! no abolish. some words sound exactly the same but have totally different meaning but could still be used in the sentence. This is totally wrong but what if a word like brother and *** sound exactly the same "dont" i mean the sentence i love my brother would look .... weird. if you catch my drift. :)

[Chidoriashi]

Elizabeth> I wasn't trying to intrude and I know that getting the meaning across is the most important point. But for those trying to excel at the language stuff like that does become of concern at some point. I mean he clearly loves the language so I imagine he is trying to improve his ability too. Anyhow I'll just send a private message next time to avoid stepping on toes.

[joeian]

kanji is just hard for english speaker..

[Derfel]

My opinion is that if Japanese people will ever feel that kanji is a burden, they will abolish it without asking any smart*ss about it. The fact that they haven't yet means that they don't give a damn about whether its handy or not. Besides, imagine the announcement: "Dear people, you have learnt 3000 (supposedly in the better case) symbols for absolutely nothing, as starting today, you will have to write everything with kana."
Yeah, gg, uproar and rebellion.

[pipokun]

No way should Japan abolish Kanji.
Well, Korea abolished Hanja (same thing as kanji) over about 300 years and introduced the "space" instead, seems to work okay. They still use various symbols in South Korea but generally it's only ever for place names or people's names. In North Korea it's been pretty much completely abolished.
...

Until 1986, South Korean students did learn hanja, but the ultra-nationalism after the Olympic killed the great Asian heritage there.
If you did not know the above, the nationalistic policy succeeded.

[kameron]

Until 1986, South Korean students did learn hanja, but the ultra-nationalism after the Olympic killed the great Asian heritage there.
If you did not know the above, the nationalistic policy succeeded.

I should have said Korea has been aboloshing Hanja for 300 years. Korean students STILL learn hanja at school.

[pipokun]

it's only ever for place names or people's names.
This is what you posted here.

Ordinary Edo people wanted to discuss the Chinese poems or Confucianism with Korean diplomats then.
Wake up.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

I should have said Korea has been aboloshing Hanja for 300 years. Korean students STILL learn hanja at school.

But a Korean cannot speak the reading and writing of a kanji.
I knew it in a Korean Site.:wave:

[centrajapan]

漢字頭いたい難しい

Kanji gives me a headache it is difficult

[Chi65]

But a Korean cannot speak the reading and writing of a kanji.
I knew it in a Korean Site.:wave:
Many in Asia can't speak it, but they can very well communicate via writing the Hanzi (is hanja the korean name for them?) into their hands, and do this a lot! Also in Korea. I have seen it there.
If that stops, one main and important communication line will die.

[joaniedark]

Hmm, yes and no.
It is traditional (even if from China) and does make writing a lot shorter, and adds secondary meanings to words.
But using just katakana and hirigana would make the language a lot more accessible to non-Japanese speakers, especially westerners who do not have symbol-based language.

[Chidoriashi]

ohh waaaa... westerners are more than catered to here, with signs in English and the Japanese having to learn English for 6 years (whether it is to any avail or not).. If you are serious about learning Japanese then you are just gonna have to suck it up and do your best. Kanji more than carries its weight in usefulness, and throwing it away because a few whiners got B's in Japanese class cuz they didnt know enough, is a silly reason to want to get rid of it.

[Chi65]

Hmm, yes and no.
It is traditional (even if from China) and does make writing a lot shorter, and adds secondary meanings to words.
But using just katakana and hirigana would make the language a lot more accessible to non-Japanese speakers, especially westerners who do not have symbol-based language.

Yes, very usefull with the secondary meaning. Some often try to clarify, which soandso was meant, by painting the according sign, and then you see their face lighting up, ahaa!

I also found this very clever, particularly because I am a painter and somewhat "tick" alike in many ways.
In the end, there are less misunderstandings than in our system.
Its a pity, we can't remember our first symbols, which we also had.
An important brain training is gone, not so there.
Not, that I wish to change (my) western habits, but it did me only good to add the other views, best way, I could, of course.

[JAL]

people, there is an old saying in Latvia about Japan - "only because of kanji, Japan is Japan and Japanese is Japanese"
There is another one - "only fools are able count to 26, look at Japanese they can hundred times more!"
Thanks to "kanji", Japanese are one of the most wisest and smartest people on this planet. You ask: Why?
From the childhood Japanese people are memorizing hundreds, thousands of kanji symbols , learning new Japanese language, so called "modern Japanese", for us, western people and European its something like memorizing a hundreds of riddles or songs each year
and remember them even after a couple of years.
Because of that, each average Japanese is able in short time to memorize more information than western or European people, thus Japanese are quick learner people...
look at Japanese karaoke contests, no people in the world can beat them
and it's all thanks to kanji
:angel:

[bruno]

30 years married with my japanese wife, I am the working,
she is the thinking part! Thats share of duties !! And she
never stopped learning about Kanji !:-)

[Chi65]

I remember, that some tests showed indeed, that the general school results were amongst the best, if not the best in the world.
Ahem, the present school-system itself goes back to the Prussians. . .must have been a fitting marriage.;-)

[kala83]

I agree with most everyone else and what they said Kanji may make learning Japanese more difficult but in the long rung because of just how complex a language is it makes the pay off or learning the writing system even better. I am big hobbiest of linguistics I want to learn Korean, Spanish , Japanese and eventually German, Italian, and French too! I am starting off with Spanish and Japanese...since I already know quite a bit of those two languages and I have heard from multiple people and books that the vowels system in both are very similar to each other so the pronunciations need to speak them are very, very close to each other.
But my primary focus is Japanese, I do think that because Japanese is such a complex and difficult language once I am able to speak and write it more comftertably I will be able to take on the other languages I want to learn with more self confidence then before. I am not sure if this is true or not but I have always been under the assumption that if you learn more then one language and you wish to learn more languages after you master your second, learning more is not as hard as it is before hand.
The other thing I would not like about them taking out Kanji simply would be that has, Kanji has a lot to do with Japan's history back when it was copying and mimicking a lot of Chinese culture before they decided to close them selves off and try to grow as a nation themselves.
Japan was able to grow quite a lot due to the fact they closed their boarders off for 200 years but the fact still remains that they did you Chinese culture to influence them selves as well none the less.
:relief:and just so everyone here knows I am by no means an expert on Japanese history or culture in the slightest so if any of my information is off at all I am taking the time now to apologize for it....just didn't want to sound like lil know it all when I am totally not and did not wish to make a fool of myself.

[JAL]

huh, it's sad that Prussian language is long forgotten :worried:, they where brothers of my ancestor's from Baltic region, till German aristocrats assimilated and destroyed Prussian language and culture :(
If it wold be possible, I wold gladly learn Prussian - the third Baltic linguistic language.

[Chi65]

What, Prussian language?? I think, it was just German. . .OK, Berlin sounds a bit different than Munich, haha, but then the Bavarians would rather say, they speak Bavarian(Bayrisch), than the Prussians speaking Prussian or Preussisch or what not. Berlinerisch, well, yes, some. ;-)

But who knows . . maybe there was a special language, but surely not in the high ranks, except that they spoke French for longer, when Aristocrates, alors. Was it before all that? Must have been.
You see, age does not stop one from learning.

Anyhow, where did you get this from? Sounds interesting nevertheless!
(but I am just a lower saxon, those who married into the british empire at times)

And Kala, I started with Chinese, then a bit Korean, and then Japan had me, but not my very well language capabilities. But the cultural path was perfect.

[caster51]

I think when I read some books, Kanji makea easy for speed reading because
Kanji is hieroglyph. so it does not need how to read kanji. I watch merely them　like pics.


Hangul is the phonetic symbol.
they must read phonetic symbol to understand like hiragana and katakana.

http://bbs.enjoykorea.jp/tbbs/read.php?board_id=phistory&nid=99742

[lilyofthevalley]

Japanese is really hard to read if there is just hiragana/katakana.

[ハダカ]

Lol many japanese freely speak Korean and happy with that so I think that Kanji is traditonal but not necessary.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Lol many japanese freely speak Korean and happy with that so I think that Kanji is traditonal but not necessary.

:?
A Japanese cannot speak Korea language.
and A Korean living in Japan does not know Korea language.

[JAL]

Lol many japanese freely speak Korean and happy with that so I think that Kanji is traditonal but not necessary.
To ハダカ: "не кажи чепyxy!" - it's in Ukraine language and it means "don't talk nonsense!"

[JAL]

What, Prussian language?? I think, it was just German. . .OK, Berlin sounds a bit different than Munich, haha, but then the Bavarians would rather say, they speak Bavarian(Bayrisch), than the Prussians speaking Prussian or Preussisch or what not. Berlinerisch, well, yes, some. ;-)
But who knows . . maybe there was a special language, but surely not in the high ranks, except that they spoke French for longer, when Aristocrates, alors. Was it before all that? Must have been.
You see, age does not stop one from learning.
Anyhow, where did you get this from? Sounds interesting nevertheless!
(but I am just a lower saxon, those who married into the british empire at times)
And Kala, I started with Chinese, then a bit Korean, and then Japan had me, but not my very well language capabilities. But the cultural path was perfect.
Prussian language wasn' t like German, thus there where some similarity's with German language (token from neighbor country's). In Prussia all churches where with German pastors, the largest city's where swarmed with German, Polish merchants. In time, all landlords where German (marriages with German aristocrats, lands where buyed from Prussian or overtaken by German churches, aristocracy). All left Prussian aristocrats adapted and learned German because it was necessary for politics etc. Schools where too only in German. how do you think, how long Prussian culture cud withstand German influence?
Whats left from Prussian language are some 200 - 300 words, not more.

[Chi65]

And I always thought, that Preussen was just a part of inside Germany...must check.
Ah, you may mean the parts Westpreussen/Ostpreussen, and probably their original inhabitants. Your neighbours, indeed! I always thought, they were mainly polish there, befor the Germans came. . .now, your explanation makes sense, thanks! I will follow this tip.

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Koenigreich_Preussen.gif

Sorry, for going off topic here, but it was too interesting for me.

What I meant with Preussen in relation to Japan, was a certain Period in history, but a German one, combined with Japan relations, thus after the opening of Japan. One of our former leaders of the german japanese society is a specialist about schoolsystems, particularly japanese, and in close relation to old german ones, thats why this is a theme amongst us for long.
Funny, to get the other above information now from a neighbour state. Thanks! Great update of my historical knowledge, and a shame about the loss of old original Prussia, indeed!
Greetings!

[JAL]

Japanese is really hard to read if there is just hiragana/katakana.
I think the opposite, but still I better prefer to read in kanji written texts, because it has it's charms and every day I am finding new things to learn, it's quite interesting. And by the way, learning kanji is really stimulating memory :-)

[Tomii515]

I think it would be stupid.
Japanese, in my opinion, looks really kool with the kanji, hiragana, and katakana.
Yeah, it's hard. I like a challenge :-)
They are fun to learn and fun to write. you can impress people when they ask ":oo how do you remember how to write that?" or something haha

it also makes japanese a lot eaier to understand.
if there werent any kanji, it would be hard for people learning the language to distinguish verb, noun, particle, etc.

i thnk it should stay.

[Amathev]

Couldn't they abolish kanji and incorporate spaces between words?

[ハダカ]

To ハダカ: "не кажи чепyxy!" - it's in Ukraine language and it means "don't talk nonsense!"
Рубака из независимой Прибалтики! Похвально!:p
I mean that many Japanese who moved to Korea are fluently use Korean in their life! :relief:

[maushan3]

it also makes japanese a lot eaier to understand.
if there werent any kanji, it would be hard for people learning the language to distinguish verb, noun, particle, etc.
i thnk it should stay.

I agree. I wouldn't imagine reading something in simple katakana and hiragana. It would just be a complete headache.

It is a big problem learning them, and requires a lot of time studying them, but I think that's what makes Asian languages beautiful and the Japanese are so reluctant to clear away from their traditions (like whale hunting..., ok, back to topic). It just won't happen. IT WON'T

Plus, it is a HUGE part of their culture. I wouldn't ever imagine it abolished.

They are fun to learn and fun to write. you can impress people when they ask

As I said, they are very hard and many times I get desperated by trying to remember them but being able to use them in your everyday life is the best reward. And, yes, I must say it doesn't feel bad to impress a few people by ones Kanji skills.

Mauricio

[shintemaster]

Well, my Japanese is pretty bad... but I can understand twice as much if kanji are used. For me there are just too many homophones in Japanese to do away with Kanji.

[ハダカ]

何で貴方は日本の上手いでしょう＾＾’ U mean that? ^^'

[Chidoriashi]

No, he is talking about words like かんしょう、。。。。干渉、鑑賞、緩衝、感傷、完勝、観賞,

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I don't think Kanji should be abolished because kanji is a part of Japan's culture and heritage. Just because kanji is complicated and not used that often doesn't mean that it doesn't have its place in society- abolishing Kanji would be like us English abolishing Latin because many people view it as the "dead language".

[Derfel]

Lol, abolish latin letters and you'll have a world of illiterates, as we don't have another alphabet or syllabary. Haha, the idea fascinates me.

[uchimizu]

Hi,

I think it is up to Japanese people to decide if they want to keep Kanjis or not. A language is not geared towards the expats living in the country, but towards the native speaker.

We in French have very complex grammar that is a hell for foreign students, and probably as complex to learn as kanjis. I cannot make my mind about if I wished it to be removed or not. I believe that anyways, I would continue using the full grammar because I find it more stylish.

I believe most Japanese want to keep the Kanjis, as it is part of Japanese culture, and also Japanese language needs them (too many different words with same pronunciation else).

What will change is that mostly japanese people will not be able to write them anymore, just to read and type them on the computer. I believe it is already the case with young people, not just with exotic kanjis (a friend of mine was unable to write 豚).

[suz135]

no, kanji is an integral part of the language. In addition, the Japanese language has so many words, kanji is needed to differentiate between identical pronounciations that have different meanings.

[MMM]

じょうきいがいにとくしゅきょういくのがっこう・きょ ういんようせいところ・せんしゅうがっこうがあり、さ らにもんぶかがくしょうしょかんそとにしょくぎょうく んれんこうやかくしゅがっこうがある

Imagine reading a newspaper written like this. It would take weeks (and it would be bigger than a phonebook). Even if you could understand it, you would be 100% sure of what you read, because so many kanji are pronounced the same way.

[Kirakira1232]

Beginning with Japanese I can understand the feeling "OMG I cant remember this kanji ><" because if your not a visually minded person it can be difficult. But saying that its by no means impossible. It takes some time to find a learning style that suits your needs but once you find it, stick with it like glue.

Beginners in Japanese will may find the issue of kanji overwhelming or they just cant do it...but as you progress from intermediate to advanced reading...I think you realise just how vital kanji is to understanding and interpreting writing. The main issue I think is remembering how to write kanji and learning the various readings.

Removing kanji from Japanese would also be kinda like telling the Chinese that we'll take away all your characters and you will use Pinyin only. I think a lot of the history will be lost if you abolish kanji. Yes the characters were derived from the Chinese, but because they were borrowed doesnt mean Japanese isnt a unique language of its own. Its the same reason that English is descended primarily from Germanic languages doesnt mean its a copy cat of German.

[esra]

I think it's something that Japan need to decide although it would be easier for me to learn Japanese in Romaji with latin letters (I want to add I am not very familiar with Japanese Language so forgive me if I sound stupid) :p.
But I think it can be done. For example a language reform is done for Turkish. The language of Ottoman Turkish was a mixture of Turkish, Persian, and Arabic that differed considerably from the period's everyday spoken Turkish and written with the script of Arabic alphabet as the administrative and literary language of the Ottoman Empire. It was hard and took years to learn it. In 1928 the language which had been used for centuries, changed to a phonetic variant of the Latin alphabet we use today and many Persian and Arabic origin loanwords in the language were replaced with their Turkish equivalents.
I am telling this to say it can be done but it’s something Japan know if it’s needed or not.

[Prizm]

It's not gonna happen. Yes, Kanji is a pain and its archaic, but it's not gonna change :) Guess I'll have to keep studying.

[uchimizu]

The Turkish alphabet reform was going from an alphabet to another. I am afraid it is a bigger change to go from ideograms to alphabet.
It would be interesting to see how the Koreans managed their change from Kanjis (which they used at one point) to the Hangul alphabet. As the transition happened ages ago, I believe there were less people involved, and it was easier to do...

But I think it can be done. For example a language reform is done for Turkish. The language of Ottoman Turkish was a mixture of Turkish, Persian, and Arabic that differed considerably from the period's everyday spoken Turkish and written with the script of Arabic alphabet as the administrative and literary language of the Ottoman Empire.

[tokapi]

how the Koreans managed their change from Kanji (which they used at one point) to the Hangul alphabet. As the transition happened ages ago, I believe there were less people involved, and it was easier to do...





I have no information on literacy rate pre-1950,do know it ( 漢字 ) was a very sensitive subject over there for a few decades.By chance in 2005 as I was watching their language TV news program aired on international channel,there was a story of a middle-aged woman attending a class at some local city high school to learn Hangul proficiency based on her Kanji acknowledge.The assignment was to write native phonetics in Hangul ( left ) column for Kanji printed in ( right ) column.

前 ( meaning: former or previous or ex ) is one of very few Kanji they still couldn't replace with indigenous Hangul phonetics,because I've read & seen it in their language newspapers and TV news onscreen subtitle.

[Jitenchakun]

Never gonna happen. What is happening (& has been happening for decades,) is the gradual atrophy of kanji usage in Japanese language. Unless I am mistaken, there is an increasing occurrence of using hiragana even when there is appropriate kanji available. (Perhaps this was covered already?)

I think kanji will always have it's place, but will likely become ever more often accompanied by furigana alongside. This way, everyone's happy: noone needs kanji to read, & japanese retains it's traditional beauty afforded by the inclusion of chinese characters.

I love the look of kanji, & will happily endeavor to learn them. (& relearn them after I forget. Again.):relief:

[tada]

No way. Ever tried reading sentences fully in hiragana/katakana or even worse, romaji? It's a nightmare.

[alantin]

The kanji carry unmeasurable cultural value, many things in the language would be all but impossible to understand with out them (the most basic stuff excluded), and the Japanese think in kanji.

Not to mention that reading anything in kana solo gives me a major headache..

I'm strongly against abolishing the kanji and frankly, all things considered, the difficulty in learning them seems to be the pettiest reason for doing so.
Fortunately I don't see it happening anytime soon..

[Ray Senyu]

Hi,
We in French have very complex grammar that is a hell for foreign students, and probably as complex to learn as kanjis.

I have been studying french for about 5-6 years and i can say that the french grammar is as easy to learn as the english (which means that it is kinda easy).
You should see the greek grammar and you will understand what is hard.:giggle:

[tada]

Factoid: Kanji were almost abolished during the Occupation after WW2 and they almost forced everything to be in romaji. Eww.

[alantin]

You should see the greek grammar and you will understand what is hard.:giggle:


You should try Finnish conjugations! :blush:

From the base word "vielä" (still), "Vieläkinköhän" would roughly translate to English as "I wonder if it still holds true". :blush:

[/off-topic]


The kanji are easy! And useful and fun to learn! :wave:

[Astroboy]

China = Simplified Kanji
Taiwan = Traditional Kanji
Japan = Japanese Kanji
Korea = They abolished Kanji in the past 50 years because of nationalism.

Although I can see some similarity of Kanji among China, Taiwan and Japan, mostly I cannot understand Chinese/Taiwanese Kanji and those meanings. But Kanji is inevitable for the Japanese tradition & education.

[Roboto-sama]

It's like wanting to take the accent ('), the tilde and the diaeresis out of spanish orthography, amirite?

[Sukotto]

Factoid: Kanji were almost abolished during the Occupation after WW2 and they almost forced everything to be in romaji. Eww.


Really?!? Holy cow pies.
That would suck.
There was a lot or racism back then, and especially against Japanese people.
If you can find old Superman comic book covers it is very illuminating.

So it wouldn't surprise me if they (the occupiers) thought hiragana, etc was an uncivilized script.

漢字が好きです。

[kireikoori]

I personally think everyone in the world should learn Kanji.

Perhaps instead of thinking Japan should romanize or kana-ize their language, we should look at Sinizing our own.

(Did I say this before? I now notice I have three posts in this thread.)

[tada]

I personally think everyone in the world should learn Kanji.

Perhaps instead of thinking Japan should romanize or kana-ize their language, we should look at Sinizing our own.

(Did I say this before? I now notice I have three posts in this thread.)

No way. Then every language would eventually be the same. Soon, that would spread to every culture being the same. And then all of humanity would be one big blob of sameness.