-なければ more verbs!

[yorkii]

Again, I'm putting what I have learnt into practise. could somebody tell me if these sentances are ok. i have the hiragana version of the sentance, thenm the romanji, then what i mean to say in the sentances.

いま　その　えいごを　みらなければ、あした　その　 えいごを　みたい　です

Ima sono eigo o miranakereba, ashita sono eigo o mitai desu

"If I don't watch this movie now, i want to watch it tomorrow!"

よこわ　すぐ　かえらなければ、　わたしわ　マクドナ ルドに　いきます

yoko wa sugu kaeranakereba, watashi wa makudonarudo ni ikimasu

"If yoko doesn't return soon, I will go to McDonalds!"

yorkii!

[Damicci]

いま　その　えいごを　みらなければ、あした　その　 えいごを　みたい　です

いま　その　えいが　を　みなければ
You may even be able to drop そのえいが　Since the sentence is till about the movie. It will be assumed that you want to see it tomorrow.

よこわ　すぐ　かえらなければ、　わたしわ　マクドナ ルドに　いきます


"If yoko doesn't return soon, I will go to McDonalds!"
Looks good I think.
:cool:

[GaijinPunch]

Just a few things.

よこわ　すぐ　かえらなければ、　わたしわ　マクドナ ルドに　いきます
1: わ should be は (similiar to your を vs お problem in the other thread).
2: Dropping わたし from the 2nd part of the sentence would sound more natural, for the same reason why you'd drop そのえいが from the 2nd part of the previous sentence.
3: マクドナルドへ (not に)

[Elizabeth]

I'm not sure, but thinking maybe it should be よこさんが. :?

[Belgarath]

I'm not sure, but thinking maybe it should be よこさんが. :?
The bomb has been dropped... :D Let's see if I was able to somehow grasp the whole wa/ga-issue, and if I've been able to remember it ^_^
I'd say that both は and が should work, but that the focus varies. Using は, the focus would lie on whether or not YOKO - noone else matters here! - will return soon, whereas with が, the focus is on whether or not Yoko will RETURN. Uhm, yeah, something like that, perhaps..! Then again, I'm sure you already know this, so treat me gently if I've said something stupid :p

[Elizabeth]

The feeling I would get is that は shifts the focus slightly, implying there are others who have already returned whereas が emphasizes the subject (Yokosan) as the one being waited out. It may be a really awkward explanation for this case, though... :bluush:

[yorkii]

thanks for your replies. it is sooooooooo tricky this language..! it is quite a challenge for me and im having fun on the way :D

[GaijinPunch]

I'm not sure, but thinking maybe it should be よこさんが. :?

Indeed... but is a can of worms I prefer not to open... I guess you did though. :P

[Elizabeth]

Indeed... but is a can of worms I prefer not to open... I guess you did though. :P
All in the quest of livening things up.....at least we can say yorkii seemed to be getting in the spirit and having a good time of it. :p

[orochi]

I agree with Elizabeth. It is best if it is が because that stresses that it's Yoko who is being waited on.

[ralian]

いま　その　えいごをみらなければ、あした　そのえい ごを　みたいです
I would say:
いま　このえいががみられないのなら、あした見たい！

みられないshould be used for negative form in this case.

よこわ　すぐ　かえらなければ、わたしわ　マクドナル ドに　いきます
もしようこがすぐにかえってこなかったら、マクドナル ドに行こう！

I hope it helps.

Love & peace

[Damicci]

I wouldn't worry too much about ha(wa) or ga being a beginner, I guess in more advanced speak it becomes a subject of conversation. (And I am no where near advanced)

ni and e(he) both are good from what I have seen many teaching books have ni listed is the particle to use but alot of other resources use e(he). if it is confusing stick with e(he) this seems to be the more commonly used particle for motion verbs like iku kuru kaeru

[yorkii]

All in the quest of livening things up.....at least we can say yorkii seemed to be getting in the spirit and having a good time of it. :p


its the best and only way to do it. if the mistakes are not picked up, how will i correct them?

[yorkii]

I wouldn't worry too much about ha(wa) or ga being a beginner, I guess in more advanced speak it becomes a subject of conversation. (And I am no where near advanced)

ni and e(he) both are good from what I have seen many teaching books have ni listed is the particle to use but alot of other resources use e(he). if it is confusing stick with e(he) this seems to be the more commonly used particle for motion verbs like iku kuru kaeru

agreed buddy. i have read that ni can replace "e" easily enough in this type of situation without commiting too much of a faux pa.!

[yorkii]

what does this part mean?

のなら


in: いま　このえいががみられないのなら、あした見たい！


もしようこがすぐにかえってこなかったら、マクドナル ドに行こう！

sorry to be a pain, but could you translate this for me also. :clueless:

[Kurumi]

Yorkii,
What you said makes sence for the most part..your all good..

[Glenn]

what does this part mean?

in: いま　このえいががみられないのなら、あした見たい！

The の is a nominalizer and なら is a conditional form of the copula, だ. The の isn't required anymore unless you're writing formal papers and the like.

sorry to be a pain, but could you translate this for me also. :clueless:

It means "if Youko doesn't come home soon, I'm going to McDonald's."

[orochi]

I wouldn't worry too much about ha(wa) or ga being a beginner, I guess in more advanced speak it becomes a subject of conversation. (And I am no where near advanced)

On the contrary, if you learn the difference early, it will stick and the rest of your Japanese studies will benefit greatly. I cannot advise to continuously use either は　or が wrong. You will end up "learning" the wrong way and it will become a bad habit that is difficult to get rid of. I believe it's one of the most subtle difficult points in Japanese and if you can hammer it out early, your Japanese will shine.

ni and e(he) both are good from what I have seen many teaching books have ni listed is the particle to use but alot of other resources use e(he). if it is confusing stick with e(he) this seems to be the more commonly used particle for motion verbs like iku kuru kaeru

The difference between に　and へ is pretty cut and dry. A specific destination is marked by に. A more vague destination is marked by へ. The other difference is intent.

For example, the difference between:
日本に行きます
日本へ行きます

The first sentence with に is "I am going to go to Japan." Our destination and our intent are in Japan and the location is emphasized.

The second sentence, though, is more vague. It represents moving towards the general vicinity of Japan. Yes, we are going to Japan... but why? It's more like... "I am heading off to Japan." It sounds more... poetic, more possibilities... what's next...

いま　その　えいがを　みなければ、あした　その　 えいがを　みたい　です
"If I don't watch this movie now, i want to watch it tomorrow!"


Back to the original post in question...
I have a couple more comments on it after thinking it over some more.

Instead of ーなければ, I recommend the ーなかったら form. It's very common in spoken Japanese.
This form is created by tagging ら onto the past, negative, plain form of the verb. (That's a mouthful, but it's not so hard!)

examples:
食べなかったら "If I don't eat..."
行かなかったら "If I don't go..."

The original sentence in question would then be:

いま　その　えいがを　みなかったら、あした　[その　 えいがを]　みたい　です

IMO, this sentence sounds much more natural as well as logical. As has been mentioned before, the section inside the brackets can be removed if you like.

[Elizabeth]

I would say:
いま　このえいががみられないのなら、あした見たい！

If I'm not able to watch the movie now, I want to see it tomorrow.


もしようこがすぐにかえってこなかったら、マクドナル ドに行こう！
If Youko doesn't get home soon, let's go to McDonalds !

[yorkii]

For example, the difference between:
日本に行きます
日本へ行きます

The first sentence with に is "I am going to go to Japan." Our destination and our intent are in Japan and the location is emphasized.

The second sentence, though, is more vague. It represents moving towards the general vicinity of Japan. Yes, we are going to Japan... but why? It's more like... "I am heading off to Japan." It sounds more... poetic, more possibilities... what's next...

thanks for making this a little clearer for me. this is a good description of the difference

yorkii

[Damicci]

That doesn't seem to make sense to me but I am slow.
I wish to laern the differences of using ha and ga
so far I have
use ha when the subject/topic is animated object
use ga when the subject/topic is not an animated object.

[Glenn]

use ha when the subject/topic is animated object
use ga when the subject/topic is not an animated object.

No. Animate or inanimate gets no consideration when you're deciding which particle to use. は is the topic marker. It marks topics. It also has a role as a contrastive marker. が is the subject marker. It marks subjects. It doesn't matter what the topic or subject is. If it's a topic, it gets は; if it's a subject, it gets が.

[beluga]

Hmm... I may be risking of stirring things up unnecessarily here...
In my opinion, tara form seems more natural than ba form.

What do you guys think?

[Index]

Hmm... I may be risking of stirring things up unnecessarily here...
In my opinion, tara form seems more natural than ba form.

What do you guys think?

I think the meaning behind each is a little different. 'ba' is a Tokyo thing too, not used much outside there so it might not seem natural in Osaka for example.

[McCrutch67]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damicci
use ha when the subject/topic is animated object
use ga when the subject/topic is not an animated object.


No. Animate or inanimate gets no consideration when you're deciding which particle to use. は is the topic marker. It marks topics. It also has a role as a contrastive marker. が is the subject marker. It marks subjects. It doesn't matter what the topic or subject is. If it's a topic, it gets は; if it's a subject, it gets が.

I've also heard that は is for animate, が is for inanimate. Maybe it ends up being more commonly that way because of what they are nomally intended on emphasizing. Just a guess as I know that they change the emphasis but I don't know how it works. Also it's further complicated because the subject and topic can be the same. The big problem is that a "topic" is such a foreign concept for European languages. We know SOV(subject-object-verb), SVO(subject-verb-object) but we never say that japanese is TSOV(topic-subject-object-verb) because we almost always state the subject and the topic when used(sort of) is just called the subject.

[Glenn]

I've also heard that は is for animate, が is for inanimate.

Where did you hear this? I'm pretty sure I've never seen it presented that way.

[Damicci]

は wa and が ga, the Noun Markers

は wa and が ga cause much confusion among beginners, but their relationship can be summed up by replacing は with the phrase "on the topic of" to distinguish it from が. Note that in actual use, the "regarding the", "on the topic of" or "as for the" is not usually written since it is not normal English style. This format is only used to better show the main difference between は and が in this lesson. (Additional note: は is normally 'ha' on the hiragana chart, but when used as a particle, it is pronounced 'wa'.)

Example:

「ねこがたべています。」 (Neko ga tabete imasu.) translates literally as "The cat is eating."

「ねこはたべています。」 (Neko wa tabete imasu.) translates as "Regarding the cat, (it) is eating."

は is generally more flexible, because the "it" can be assumed, and is therefore recommended to novices who have not grasped the difference between the two. が specifically requires a verb to modify it, and if used incorrectly, can make the speaker seem silly.

Nevertheless, use of は is similar to changing the subject in a conversation, and foreigners are easily recognized because they change topics every sentence. While the relationship may seem complicated, once grasped it is much easier to understand.

Another way to look at this is が introduces a new subject, and は can be used to refer to that subject which which was mentioned before.

Example:

「ねこがいます。」(Neko ga imasu.) translates as "There is a cat."

「ねこはたべています。」(Neko wa tabete imasu) "Regarding the cat (that was mentioned before), (it) is eating."

So, when が is used, the thing in front of it is being emphasized, and when は is used, the emphasis is on what follows it.

は also has the specialized function of being used for comparisons as well.

Example:

「ねこがいます。」(Neko ga imasu.) translates as "There is a cat."

「いぬがいます。」(Inu ga imasu.) "There is a dog."

「ねこはたべていますけど、いぬはたべていません。」 (Neko ha tabete imasu kedo, Inu ha tabete imasen) "The cat is eating, but the dog is not." or you can think of this as "As for the cat it is eating, but as for the dog, it is not."

Now it makes sense. :relief:

[Glenn]

Oh, I thought you were showing where the animate/inanimate discrepancy was explained. :relief::D Yeah, that explanation looks pretty good to me. :cool:

[Damicci]

I think this gets confusing because I was taught that when saying things like the car is pretty you are supposed to use ga even though the car is the topic.

車がきれいです。
But If I were to say that woman is pretty then I should use ha/wa
女の子はきれいです。

Here we are talking about animate and inamimate objects.

But I do recall no matter if it is animate or not you would use ga when stating the liking of certain subjects like 歌田が好きです　or あの車が好きです。

either way we now no the correct useage of ha/ga but will still get it wrong. :p

[Glenn]

I think this gets confusing because I was taught that when saying things like the car is pretty you are supposed to use ga even though the car is the topic.

車がきれいです。

But 車はきれいです is a perfectly legitimate sentence depending on context (as everything does, especially in Japanese), so I don't see why anyone would say that wa is for animate and ga is for inanimate. Also, 田中が来た is a perfectly legitimate sentence, too, which further shows that it has nothing to do with animate/inanimate. I'd still like to know what the source for this claim is.

[Elizabeth]

But 車はきれいです is a perfectly legitimate sentence depending on context (as everything does, especially in Japanese), so I don't see why anyone would say that wa is for animate and ga is for inanimate. Also, 田中が来た is a perfectly legitimate sentence, too, which further shows that it has nothing to do with animate/inanimate. I'd still like to know what the source for this claim is.
Only half jokingly, it probably comes from a heuristic overgeneralizing watashi and the person being addressed in the majority of cases taking "wa" which contrasts to the "sore, kore" series and most nouns before "wakaru" with ga. :blush:

[Glenn]

Yeah, I had thought something along those lines what the cause of it, too. But still I'd like to see the actual exposition.

[Elizabeth]

I think this gets confusing because I was taught that when saying things like the car is pretty you are supposed to use ga even though the car is the topic.

車がきれいです。
But If I were to say that woman is pretty then I should use ha/wa
女の子はきれいです。

Here we are talking about animate and inamimate objects.

But I do recall no matter if it is animate or not you would use ga when stating the liking of certain subjects like 歌田が好きです　or あの車が好きです。

either way we now no the correct useage of ha/ga but will still get it wrong. :p
The bottom line is that this animate/inanimate distinction is impossible because you would end up making sentences having more than two topics which is usually forbidden in Japanese grammar (two is confusing enough, particularly if they were both animate). :blush: Even though 80% of the time は is left out when the subject is clear or doesn't need added emphasis.

一般的に日本語では、１つの文章の中に２回以上「は」 が出てくると文法的に
おかしな文章です。

Plus such a rule would make sentences like the following unintelligible without a way of telling which one, if either, is thinking of the other as sick. :sick:

あなたは、私が　病気か何かみたいに言うのですね。

[Damicci]

I am not arguing for the animate/inanimate rumor just stating reason swhy people believe in this rumored rule.

too me it makes total sense now how to use ha/wa and ga but i will still make mistakes as even in english i had a hard time determing the subject from the topic, which is why i probably have a hard time with japanese grammar. I can't even understand english grammar :p