Particles ni, de and e

[Tsuyoiko]

Can anyone help me to understand the difference between the particles に, で and へ? I have learnt that に indicates destinations and times, で shows where an action takes place, and へ emphasises a destination. It seems to me though that they would be interchangeable in certain sentences.

Can anyone tell me if the following example sentences are interchangeable, or if they are incorrect or have slightly different meanings (To me they all mean "the children play at the park"):

子どもたち は 公園 に 遊びます
子どもたち は 公園 で 遊びます
子どもたち は 公園 へ 遊びます

Thanks!

[sl0815]

Hello,

my understanding of these particles is that NI and HE can only be used with verbs which express a movement. DE is used to descibe where a action takes place. So to me the only correct sentence is the one with DE, since asobu is not a verb which expresses a movement.


MfG Jan

[Tsuyoiko]

OK, that sounds sensible, thanks. So you can only use に and へ with verbs like 行く or 歩く, because then we are moving. Am I right in thinking that で is like 'at' in English, whereas に and へ are more like 'to'?

So are both of these correct and the same?

子どもたち は 公園 に 歩きます
子どもたち は 公園 へ 歩きます

Or do they have a subtly different meaning?

Thanks.

[Damicci]

Ni is also used to express intent to move to a particular location.
私は東京に行きます。　Ｉ　ｗｉｌｌ　ｇｏ　ｔｏ　Ｔ ｏｋｙｏ．

Where e へ is used to express movement to a general unspecified area.
私は日本へ行きます。　Ｉ　ｗｉｌｌ　ｇｏ　ｔｏ　Ｊ ａｐａｎ．　（Ｉ　ｗｉｌｌ　ｇｏ　to　ｓｏｍｅｐｌ ａｃｅ　ｉｎ　Ｊａｐａｎ）

De I always have a hard time using correctly.
で　I think is used with specifying at a location or per amount of time.
私はすしの店で食べたいよ。　Ｉ　ｗａｎｔ　ｔｏ　ｅ ａｔ　ａｔ　ａ　ｓｕｓｈｉ　ｓｈｏｐ．

[Elizabeth]

Ni is also used to express intent to move to a particular location.
私は東京に行きます。　Ｉ　ｗｉｌｌ　ｇｏ　ｔｏ　Ｔ ｏｋｙｏ．

Where e へ is used to express movement to a general unspecified area.
私は日本へ行きます。　Ｉ　ｗｉｌｌ　ｇｏ　ｔｏ　Ｊ ａｐａｎ．　（Ｉ　ｗｉｌｌ　ｇｏ　to　ｓｏｍｅｐｌ ａｃｅ　ｉｎ　Ｊａｐａｎ）
Although in this case に and へ are completely interchangable, there isn't really a change in meaning depending on the type of destination. Another example would be going to school -- you hear all of them （へ、まで、に）　used quite commonly. 　

みなを向迎えに学校（へ、まで、に）行きます。


As the others said, "De" is correct here to indicate the place of action (where the kids will be playing).

子どもたち は 公園 に 遊びます
子どもたち は 公園 で 遊びます
子どもたち は 公園 へ 遊びます

[sl0815]

OK, that sounds sensible, thanks. So you can only use に and へ with verbs like 行く or 歩く, because then we are moving. Am I right in thinking that で is like 'at' in English, whereas に and へ are more like 'to'?

So are both of these correct and the same?

子どもたち は 公園 に 歩きます
子どもたち は 公園 へ 歩きます

Or do they have a subtly different meaning?

Thanks.


Well ... in this case you are right (as far as I know) but で can not only be used as "at".

Ex: はしですしをたべます。 ("I eat sushi with chopsticks" or more general: "I eat sushi by using chopsticks")

ドイツはビールで有名です。(Germany is famous for [its] beer)

に expresses a movement to a specific place (like a park, or your house) and へ is more general (like going to japan or some city).


MfG Jan

[Elizabeth]

Here is the last thread on the subject :

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14316&highlight=hiking

[Kansai]

OK, that sounds sensible, thanks. So you can only use に and へ with verbs like 行く or 歩く, because then we are moving. Am I right in thinking that で is like 'at' in English, whereas に and へ are more like 'to'?

So are both of these correct and the same?

子どもたち は 公園 に 歩きます
子どもたち は 公園 へ 歩きます

Or do they have a subtly different meaning?

Thanks.

Well, you can use に and へ together with 行くbut not with 歩く. If you want to say "The children walk to the park." in Japanese, you should use 歩いて行く instead of just 歩く.

子どもたち は 公園 に 歩いて行きます。 to the park
子どもたち は 公園 へ 歩いて行きます。 to the park (almost like toward the
park, and they reach there, too)

With the verb 走る(run ) is also the same thing. 走って行く These two Japanese verbs aren't really of movement directly towards somewhere. In other words you can 歩くor 走る staying at the same place. :wave:

[sl0815]

... In other words you can 歩くor 走る staying at the same place. :wave:

:mad: That's confusing. Can I say 私は公園で走りました。(I was running (around) in the park.)?


MfG Jan

[Damicci]

Thats more of "I ran at the park" I think there is a better term to use for specifying "around" a particular area. I can't think of the word right now.

[Glenn]

:mad: That's confusing. Can I say 私は公園で走りました。(I was running (around) in the park.)?

Yes, you can, but your sentence means "I ran in the park." "I ran through the park" would be 公園を走りました.

[Kansai]

:mad: That's confusing. Can I say 私は公園で走りました。(I was running (around) in the park.)?

MfG Jan

Sorry for my umbiguous English. :p :sorry:

Yes, you can say

私は公園で走りました。(I ran in the park.)
私は公園で走っていました。(I was running in the park.)
私は公園のまわりを走りました。(I ran around the park.)
私は公園のまわりを走っていました。(I was running around the park.)

:wave:

[Elizabeth]

Sorry for my umbiguous English. :p :sorry:

Yes, you can say

私は公園で走りました。(I ran in the park.)
私は公園で走っていました。(I was running in the park.)
私は公園のまわりを走りました。(I ran around the park.)
私は公園のまわりを走っていました。(I was running around the park.)

:wave:
回り is similar to 周囲, right ? Around in this instance also meaning literally around -- a complete circle around the edge or outer boundaries of the park ? :relief:

[Kansai]

Yes, you can, but your sentence means "I ran in the park." "I ran through the park" would be 公園を走りました.

The sentence 公園を走りました。is quite natural and gramatical, I think. But I am not so exactly sure which preposition I should use in English translation. I would translate "I ran through the park" to 公園を走りぬけました。The verb 走りぬけるmeans "run through". Can 公園を走りました。be "I ran at the park."?

:?

[Elizabeth]

The sentence 公園を走りました。is quite natural and gramatical, I think. But I am not so exactly sure which preposition I should use in English translation. I would translate "I ran through the park" to 公園を走りぬけました。The verb 走りぬけるmeans "run through". Can 公園を走りました。be "I ran at the park."?

:?
At the park might imply you were limited to a facility or training site or whatever located at the park without actually running through or around the area itself. In or around the park are the best translations for 公園を走りました I think.

走りぬけました is probably more like a straight path from one end to the other. To emphasize running around through various parts or running a circle, add mawari 私は公園のまわりを.

[Glenn]

Yeah, there seems to be no direct translation. I didn't realize that 走り抜ける was used for "run through," and usually when someone does something through a space just を is used (from what I had read). For example, it's my understanding that 空を飛びたい has a different meaning than 空で飛びたい, because the former means "I want to fly through the sky (from point A to point B/for some distance and for some purpose)," while the latter means "I want to fly in the sky (not really going anywhere, perhaps just back and forth)." Here I would differentiate with "through" and "in," but if we can't use 公園を走りました to mean "I ran through the park," then I'm not too sure how to best get the nuance in natural English. By the way, what's the difference between the ぬける version and the ぬける抜き (:D) version? Does the latter just cover less area, or mean to walk the park in a line from one point to another without leaving it? Understanding that will make it easier to come up with an English version.

[Kansai]

By some reason we don't say 空で飛びたい in Japanese. 空を飛びたいcan mean both fly in the sky or through the sky. If you hear 空で飛びたい, you may think someone wants to jump in the sky because the verbs 飛ぶ and 跳ぶ(to jump) are pronounced the same. 空で跳びたい, I think, is gramatical though we don't hear it so often.

I don't really understand what you mean by "the ぬける抜きversion".

[Glenn]

By some reason we don't say 空で飛びたい in Japanese. 空を飛びたいcan mean both fly in the sky or through the sky. If you hear 空で飛びたい, you may think someone wants to jump in the sky because the verbs 飛ぶ and 跳ぶ(to jump) are pronounced the same. 空で跳びたい, I think, is gramatical though we don't hear it so often.

Ah, well then...

I don't really understand what you mean by "the ぬける抜きversion".

Maybe I should have gone with ぬけるなし, then. I was going for a pun, but I guess it didn't work. Come to think of it, it may have been better to use ヌケル抜き, ｢ぬける｣抜き, or 「ヌケル」抜き. Then again, maybe none of them make sense. Anyway, I meant what's the difference between the version with ぬける and the one without it.

[Tsuyoiko]

Wow. My brain hurts. This discussion has gone a bit beyond me now, but I will try to keep up! Thanks guys!

:? :worried: :mad: :note:

I have just seen what seems to me like a strange use of に. Is it correct? I would have put は instead. Is that OK too?

子どもたち に テレビ を 見せましょう

[Damicci]

"Let's show Television to the children."
Ｗｈａｔ　ｉｓ　ｉｔ　ｙｏｕ　ｗａｎｔ　ｔｏ　ｓａ ｙ？

[Kansai]

Ah, well then...

Maybe I should have gone with ぬけるなし, then. I was going for a pun, but I guess it didn't work. Come to think of it, it may have been better to use ヌケル抜き, ｢ぬける｣抜き, or 「ヌケル」抜き. Then again, maybe none of them make sense. Anyway, I meant what's the difference between the version with ぬける and the one without it.

Got it.

公園を走りました。 ( I ran at the park.)
公園を走りぬけました。( I ran through the park.)

When you say 公園を走りぬけました, you mean you ran from one side of the park to the other and you came out of it. On the other hand, with 公園を走りました you probably stayed inside of the park when you were running and it doesn't matter if you came out or not. :-)

[Kansai]

I have just seen what seems to me like a strange use of に. Is it correct? I would have put は instead. Is that OK too?

子どもたち に テレビ を 見せましょう

This is correct. The subjet (わたしたち は) is omitted. 子どもたち(indirect object or dative) + に and テレビ(direct object or accusative) + を. Note that the verb 見せる is a transitive verb, which takes both a indirect and a direct object while 見るtakes only a direct object.
:wave:

[Tsuyoiko]

"Let's show Television to the children."
Ｗｈａｔ　ｉｓ　ｉｔ　ｙｏｕ　ｗａｎｔ　ｔｏ　ｓａ ｙ？

It is supposed to say "Let's let the children watch TV"

This is correct. The subjet (わたしたち は) is omitted. 子どもたち(indirect object or dative) + に and テレビ(direct object or accusative) + を. Note that the verb 見せる is a transitive verb, which it takes both a indirect and a direct object while 見るtakes only a direct object.

I get it! As well as indicating destinations and times, に also works as the indirect object indicator. I remember this now. Thanks!

:relief: