Whaling

[WhaleRider]

Hello. I want to raise the issue of whaling. Everybody knows that Japan wants to increase the number of whales it kills each year for 'scientific' purposes (i.e. restaurants & school lunches). The Japanese government is attempting to buy the votes of small member nations in the International Whaling Commission. Well, I am a citizen of the world. You know, in the Space Age, when you look back at the earth from space, what do you see? Do you see national boundaries? No! You see one magnificent planet shining like a jewel in space. What is the only possible social group now which we can belong to? Is it Canada, or Japan, or the All Blacks, or the US Democratic Party, or those who prefer Big Macs over KFC? No. It is the global community. Along with this goes responsibility for the lives we live, for the things we do, the things we buy, eat, use. Everything has an impact on the planet. It is no longer acceptable to the global community that practices that are detrimental to the environment - like whaling - should continue, that they be justified by tradition. Global responsibility, responsibility to preserve the world's ecosystems, is the dominant need over and above individual nations' separate traditions. Japan needs to be pulled into line by the pressure and dialogue of people such as those who post at this forum, not by anger and abuse, but by understanding of the deeper, global, environmental concerns that unite us. There, that's my first entry to this forum. I hope it sparks some dialogue.
-WhaleRider, NZ.

[lexico]

Hi ! Welcome to the forum ! Well thought out thread, like a speech for Let's Protect the Whales Association.

Actually there's a subforum dedicated to Whaling in Japan where this thread seems to belong.

General forum > 2. News & Topics > 9. Whaling in Japan

and you should be able to fnd more discussions there. Also use the Search function on the top menu bar for more detailed (narrow) searches by post or thread.

[isanatori]

Welcome to this forum WhaleRider.

I do no agree with your point of vew on whaling. Here's why :
First, whaling is not the most dangerous human activity for whales. I would say that the pollution of the seas, fishing nets, collisions with boats, etc. are far more relevant problems to the cetaceans and should be adressed in priority.
Whaling has maybe become intollerable to some Westerners, but I believe a well managed whaling scheme under international control would certainly be a better thing that no whaling at all. At least, the Japanese, and any other nations that wish to undertake whaling, should do so in way close to the so much criticized scientific whaling Japan is doing in Antarctica and North Pacific. The collected data would help monitoring the state of whale populations and oceans.
If can read japanese, i strongly advise you to read Kawabata Hiroto's "kujira wo totte, kangaeta". It depicts how scientific whaling is conducted in Antarctica and some i_nteresting thinking from the author about the whaling issue.

[alexriversan]

why the labelling "scientific"? and, do eat whales other fish themselves?
right now i am not responsible for people who perform "whaling", for their action/suffering.

to reduce cattle/pig production by 3 upto ten times would appear as a good thing to me. especially chickens are grown horrible, no obligation to eat them.

offered chicken/dolphin/whale, i say "no thanks". and, i do not have the time to start a campaign, to explain it generates suffering/bird flu. in case to hate/affect all these "bad" people, it would enable me to get exaggerated all day.

this does not declare vegetarism. to grow pigs, and slay them if they get old and fat- nothing wrong with it.

i support the opinion uneconomic growth of animals, consume of animal products generates suffering.

[WhaleRider]

Hi there. Thanks for the replies lexico, isanatori, alexriversan, and for the welcome. What we think about whaling does seem to depend on what culture we are from. Actually, yes, there are millions of other causes or issues in the world apart from whales that deserve attention. I from time to time hear news about whales and I grow sad that people should want to kill them. I partly agree with you, isanatori, about the equal threat to whales by ships and pollution. I don't know enough facts to know the statistical difference, however. But if I were a whale, I would be in danger from the hunting ships, getting hit by ships & boats, pollution, navy sonar devices. These all affect not just whales, but other sea creatures.

I am vegetarian, because I wish to minimise my personal impact on the animals, birds & fishes, not only the whales. I cannot agree with the idea of managed whaling. I think that the practice is outmoded, belonging to the 19th Century, like in New Zealand when the whales were hunted almost to extinction by the 1840s.

Without being high-and-mighty about it, why not point ourselves quietly in the direction of compassion?

[Brooker]

:homer:
"Mmmm, whale."

[ralian]

I also would like to point out that "whale watching" sometimes put whales to danger, too. Some boats approach too close to them.

[mad pierrot]

"Mmmm, whale."


:D


64 slices of American cheese anyone?

[isanatori]

Hello,

WhaleRider, I understand and respect your opinion on whaling. You have the right to oppose any form of whaling, even if it is carefully managed.
However, i think you should understand that your opinion might not be shared by everybody. For example, to the contrary of most western nations, Japan has mainly (there are few exceptions, especially before WWII) been hunting whales for food and have a long tradition in this. Based on what I read on the subject, I know that Japanese people has been whaling for centuries and has developped a strong feeling towards the cetaceans. Since organized whaling appeared in this country around the 17th century, japanese whalers have performed funeral rites for the souls of whales they killed. They are usually thankful to the whales for what these animals brought to their communities.

Of course, there have been slaughters of many whale species (in particular the biggest like the blue whale) during the 20th century. Japan took part in it, but it was not the only one and it was mainly because of permissive management from the IWC (BWU, Whaling Olympics). I understand that the international opinion is being shocked by this bloody history of whaling. Everything should be done in order that it doesn't happen again.
But, considering that some species (Minke whale) are quite abundant, i don't think that all whaling should be forbidden on the basis that it might be immoral or that whales might disappear.

The ethical issue will never make a consensus as human beings having different cultures and way of thinking, no one will ever accept that his/her way thinking is flawed. To Japanese, the idea that whales are special (more intelligent, beautiful, etc.) animals and therefore should not be hunted is certainly unthinkable.
As for the risk that whales might get extinct, I think that if countries opposed to whaling take part in an international management scheme, this risk won't exist.

Contrarily to pollution, fishing nets and other threats to whales, whaling can be controlled. In my opinion, it is only through cooperation from both sides that the whaling issue will get to an acceptable solution for everybody.
For this, opponents to whaling must accept that some countries want and need (for cultural reasons) to whale, while whaling countries must accept that whaling is not tolerated by everyone and adapt their activity.
The idea Kawabata Hiroto gives in the book i mentionned is maybe a good consensus.

[alexriversan]

i searched yahoo! by "whales nourishment", and figured out, whales nourish from krill, plankton and small fish. means, they are not vegetarian themselves.

now, i have seen in the library: there is an exhibition about whales! (in ireland). including live strandings, around 100 or so in one year. they write these whales are old/insane, but they maneuver them back into the sea, "to give them a chance to survive".

wouldn't it be appreciate to slaughter such whales, who activley seek to leave the sea? i mean, often such whales die soon...

i do not know, how it compares to the number of whales, which are caught by the japanese. i do not know how many whales are subject of stranding to japanese coast.

[earthangel]

Thank you Whalerider for bringing up some very important views on whaling. It seems that Japan is not very receptive to environmental or humane aspects of whale killing preferring instead to defend itself by saying it's no different to killing cows etc. However it is different in significant ways. Where to start? So many issues:-

a) Cruelty. There is no humane way to kill a whale. It is so huge. with cows you can stun them with captive bolt and hopefully they lose consciousness while you kill them. No such possibility with a whale. They are shot with an exploding penthrite harpoon which is designed to kill by trauma or laceration. Once embedded in the whale (some go straight through) it explodes and sends shock waves to the brain. The whale is still alive often while being dragged by the rope attached to the harpoon to the factory ship. If it is not moving it is determined to be dead (though in fact it could be paralysed or in shock and still alive) and carved up. If it is moving many hundreds of bullet rounds are fired into it. Japan favours using electrocution in addition, which is very cruel. In addition, members of its family suffer emotional loss and this has been documented.

b) Whale populations have not recovered from the advent of commercial whaling 200 years ago. In fact, according to Professor Stephen Palumbo's groundbreaking genetic research, we have underestimated former whale populations by a factor of 6-20. In order to "sustainably" whale, whales should be at 50% of former numbers. At present they are only at 1% of former populations which means no whaling should be allowed by any nation whatsoever. possibly ever again.

Isanatori is correct in saying there are other factors threatening whales' survival - such as noise pollution (increased ship traffic, seismic and military sonar), chemical pollution (bioaccumulation of organochlorines and pesticides which is affecting calf mortality, endocrine and immune systems, liver etc), entanglement in fishing nets (1,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die every day this way), habitat loss and global warming. Because the ozone layer is increasing this is allowing UVB radiation into the atmosphere which inhibits photosynthesis in phytoplankton and kills some zooplankton leading to skin cancer and blindness in cetaceans and more importantly drastic decline in krill numbers - their food supply.

However, Japan is contributing to these problems too by overfishing. Japan has 1/5th of the world's population and kills 1/3 of the world's fish. So the questions begs to be asked - are whales the greedy ones? After all they have been here in much greater numbers living in harmony with all in their ecosystems, contributing by way of their vase plumes of excrement with fertilize plankton, the bottom of the food chain that everything in the ocean depends on. They give back. Japan just keeps fishing as if there will always be fish. Now the oceans are so seriously overfished, isn't it time people of the world started realising it's time to stop eating fish lest they all perish?

c) Environmental. If we remove the top feedeers in the ocean's ecosystem it will have dire consequences for the rest of the ocean. Already the oceans are in a state of collapse. We have overfished the ocean and it is dying. If it dies completely, we will die also because we depend on a healthy ocean to supply us with 70-80% of the oxygen we breathe. So with every whale and dolphin, shark and seal we kill, we are killing the earth, killing ourselves.

So you see, Isanatori, the best management of whales is to stop killing them. Japan has totally incorrect numbers.

d) Whale blubber is carcinogenic. This has already been determined by the Norwegian government who tells its citizens not to eat too much - instead preferring to sell whale blubber to Japan. Japan doesn't seem to mind giving cancer-causing meat to its citizens - or even its school children for that matter!

e) International good relations. Australia is one of the #1 anti-whaling nations in the world. Japan is illegally killing our minke whales in Australian territorial waters in Antarctica and plans to double that number and include our humpback whales. Just so you know, Australian people love humpback whales and 1.5 million flock to whale watching every year to gasp in awe and wonder at these magestic creatures. Many on those boats are Japanese tourists who ooh and aah along with us then go home to eat whales in expensive restaurants. This is creating a lot of bad feeling on the part of Australians to Japan and I wouldn't be surprised if Australians start a nation-wide boycott of Japanese goods and travel if our Prime Minister does not take Japan to court for trespassing in our waters. And if Japan starts to kill humpback whales which are endangered then it will be getting into very deep water indeed.

Japan has made itself very unpopular with the IWC because it is using a loophole in "scientific" whaling to kill whales for commercial purposes. It is not necessary to kill a whale to determine its age just so quotas can be set. The IWC is continuously censuring Japan over this and demanding it use non-lethal methods like the other countries. So you see Japan is not very popular in the world arena for the irresponsible and selfish way it is killing whales which belong to the oceans not to them. So far not one shred of evidence of anything valuable has been contributed by Japan to the scientific knowledge of whales through it's so-called "scientific" whaling program.

f) Strandings. Whales rely on sonar to navigate and this is thought to be drowned out by military sonar so the whales surface too quickly and suffer from decompression. Mass strandings of whales have been increasing around the world and there is growing evidence that modern military sonar (detecting ultra-quiet submarines) is responsible. Keep in mind a single ping lasts 60-100 seconds and reaches up to 235 decibels. Again, another threat to whale survival. We don't need whaling nations to add to this! In the last 20 years of the commercial moratorium on whaling, Japan, Norway and Iceland have killed 25,000 whales.

In conclusion, just because Japan has whaled for centuries does not mean it should continue. For centuries, womens' feet were bound so they would be small due to tradition. It is time for Japan, Norway and Iceland to come into the 21st Century and stop all whaling!

I have stated my case and I hope that Japanese people wake up to the urgency of this issue and stop demanding to eat cetaceans (whale and dolphin meat). Instead, cultivate whale-watching as an industry - before it's too late.

[mad pierrot]

Cruelty. There is no humane way to kill a whale. It is so huge. with cows you can stun them with captive bolt and hopefully they lose consciousness while you kill them.

Trust me, the way cows are killed is not humane.

[Aussie_Chick]

But alot more humane and quicker than the way whales are slaughtered. I wish the Australian Government would hurry up and charge Japan for tresspassing in our waters. We don't want them here or their stupid whaling boats.

[名無し]

Is it Canada, or Japan, or the All Blacks, or the US Democratic Party, or those who prefer Big Macs over KFC?Japan is the only country where KFC holds the annual "thanksgiving" ceremony to pray for the souls of cooked chickens.

http://www.kfc.co.jp/room/img/kansha01.jpg http://www.kfc.co.jp/room/img/kansha02.jpg http://www.kfc.co.jp/room/img/kansha03.jpg
link (http://www.kfc.co.jp/room/kansha.html)
related post (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=336656)

[taeter_tot]

japanese have whale Sashimi on the sushi menu,dolphin meat not yet ( in total disgust comes to think of it ).

[Mrjones]

"Japan is the only country where KFC holds the annual "thanksgiving" ceremony to pray for the souls of cooked chickens."

thanks for sharing.

[名無し]

"Japan is the only country where KFC holds the annual "thanksgiving" ceremony to pray for the souls of cooked chickens."

thanks for sharing.Just the same for whaling too:

http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/res/05/1107/01_7047.jpg http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/res/05/1107/04_6937.jpg
http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/res/05/1107/02_6941.jpg http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/res/05/1107/06_6927.jpg
http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/res/05/1107/08_6962.jpg http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/res/05/1107/09_6990.jpg http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/res/05/1107/10_6991.jpg
related post (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=406425)

[Goldiegirl]

I guess what bothers me is that they kill whales under the pretense of science. Even my husband says stuff like "Japan isn't an active whaling nation, we only kill them for science." I was astounded that he would actually believe that! I then asked if it was just for science why was the meat sold in restaurants and canned and sold in grocery stores? He still doesn't get it that it's a big LIE. That people can be so ignorant amazes me. I am not an animal rights extremist, but for whatever reason whaling and clubbing those seals really bugs me.

[Mrjones]

I can somehow understand that whale ceremony, whale is after all outstanding mammal..KFC praying for cooked chickens how ever...haha. Thats probably funniest thing I have heard in a while.

[nice gaijin]

What are the requirements for being an outstanding animal? Did the chicken not quite make the cut? Perhaps I should scorn them for their commonness and inability to hold their breath...

[Mrjones]

Rarity of the spiecies and size of their nerves.

[nice gaijin]

Would the chicken be so common if it weren't bred for commercial purposes? Would the whale lose its majesty if we started breeding them for food? I'm not sure what you mean by the size of their nerves...

[Mrjones]

size of the nerve:
Its simple human feeling, do you feel sorry for flies we killed too. Should we make ceremony for them too then..if all is equal. Sorry man its just kfc and shinto is hard to believe walking hand in hand. Who knows maybe they do and thats good for them. I still find it little bit funny though.

[nice gaijin]

My point is that life is life; it's either all sacred or none of it is.

[名無し]

http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/nagato03/18.jpg http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/topic/nagato03/17.jpg
link (http://www.city.nagato.yamaguchi.jp/~kanko/rekisi/assets/kujiba/)

[Sarapva]

I agree that all animals - all living things - deserve the same respect. No animal should have to suffer for a long time only because we humans can't be bothered to kill them quickly. It's true that in the meat industry, fur trade and other industries where animals are raised just for profit, they also suffer painful deaths because of human ignorance or lack of compassion. I'm vegetarian, but I could live with a company that killed animals if they had strict rules about humane slaughter (as painless as possible) and also rules about letting the animals live as natural a life as possible before being killed.

Ideally though, people wouldn't want to eat other beings. I believe in karma, even though I'm a westerner, and I'm sure there's bad karma being created where killing and using living things for profit is concerned.