Japanese or Chinese: may be offensive

[Jack]

Alright, me and my friend, were talking and we saw an oriental person, this was at his college, he was sat there studying. My friend then said "he's that chinese student", i said "what?, how do you know hes chinese?" he said he looks chinese, i said "woah, thats a bit of a premisquous kinda assumption isn't it?" he said, "what you mean?" i said "just because hes oriental doesn't make him chinese?".

Who here know of people or are a person, and just makes a snap judgement about this sort of thing.

[Maciamo]

I don't really know anybody like that in my milieu, but I have heard of other forum members (mainly Americans or Brits) who know people like that.

[Kinsao]

Oh yes, you are right, often I heard people do this kind of thing. And, I don't really know the reason why they should make that assumption...

I admit, sometimes I can't tell what is someone's nationality/race/whatever from seeing them :sorry: for instance, if they are Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese, etc, etc... I feel bad to be ignorant like that, but I wouldn't make an assumption (I hope!). Rather, if I was meeting the person maybe I'd ask them (and then *remember* the answer... some people don't make an effort to remember :okashii: ). For instance, I wouldn't expect someone from east Asia necessarily to know from looking whether I was French, German, Irish, Danish, English, Italian or whatever! So I wouldn't be offended if they asked me, and I would expect it's pretty ok to ask... do you think so?

But, yes, a lot of people seem to see someone and say "Chinese" or something straight away, and I am wondering why is that? :?

[PopCulturePooka]

http://blacklava.net/site/02/a/images/0100.jpg

[Jack]

Oh yes, you are right, often I heard people do this kind of thing. And, I don't really know the reason why they should make that assumption...

I admit, sometimes I can't tell what is someone's nationality/race/whatever from seeing them :sorry: for instance, if they are Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese, etc, etc... I feel bad to be ignorant like that, but I wouldn't make an assumption (I hope!). Rather, if I was meeting the person maybe I'd ask them (and then *remember* the answer... some people don't make an effort to remember :okashii: ). For instance, I wouldn't expect someone from east Asia necessarily to know from looking whether I was French, German, Irish, Danish, English, Italian or whatever! So I wouldn't be offended if they asked me, and I would expect it's pretty ok to ask... do you think so?

But, yes, a lot of people seem to see someone and say "Chinese" or something straight away, and I am wondering why is that? :?

i think its cause every oriental person that was on the TV screens growing up was chinese, never a Japanese person, (this is the way i saw it).

I mean no offense by this but,
nowadays i find it easy to tell someones race, i see things like, i dont know, i always thought the chinese were smaller in stature, am i right?
But there are people that do make the snap judgement, but what do you say to someone that is chinese that you just spoken japanese to because you thought they were japanese? can you say sorry, are people offended easily this way?

[jet_dee]

I have no trouble telling apart Chinese, Korean and Japanese, as long as they are natives. Foreign-born Chinese, Korean and Japanese are difficult to tell apart, but I don't know why that is. There are subtle facial, hairstyle, and eye differences among natives of the above three countries, but my method is not foolproof, and I'm not 100% correct in my assumptions (close, but not perfect).

[Jack]

I have no trouble telling apart Chinese, Korean and Japanese, as long as they are natives. Foreign-born Chinese, Korean and Japanese are difficult to tell apart, but I don't know why that is. There are subtle facial, hairstyle, and eye differences among natives of the above three countries, but my method is not foolproof, and I'm not 100% correct in my assumptions (close, but not perfect).

i dont think anyone can be 100% sure just straight off the bat, well definitely not someone of another race.

[jet_dee]

True, distinguishing Korean from Japanese and vice versa is the most difficult, but I think anyone can be trained to tell apart Chinese and Korean/Japanese, because the differences are much more pronounced.

[Kinsao]

I can usually tell apart Japanese from Chinese/Korean, but I think that's because I know more Japanese people, so get more attuned to slight differences of structure etc. It's maybe a question of familiarity. Hmmm, I don't have a problem with people not knowing, it's just the attitude of making the assumption of one thing...

If you spoke the wrong language to someone by mistake, you say sorry, I'm not sure if they are offended or not... I think it would depend on the person how easily they take offence. I have had the wrong (European) language spoken to me (in Ireland - not in Japan!) and it doesn't bother me at all, but some people might be sensitive about it.

[Meiki]

I've seen two chinese girls on my campus. They're exchange-students from China and good friend with eachother. Me and my friends hang out with the exchange-students and everytime I see them I kind of think how very different they look from eachother. One has a light complexion and looks a bit like Zhang Ziyi and is the tallest of the two, about 1.68. The other has a darker complexion and looks more thai. They're both very cute. The first could pass for a korean or japanese, actually.
But that's no reason not to hire real japanese actresses for Memoirs of a Geisha, eh yeah, that's another story, I know.
A chinese friend of mine says a chinese from the northern are taller, have a lighter complexion, and are more likely to pass for korean/japanese.

[Iron Chef]

"i said "woah, thats a bit of a premisquous kinda assumption isn't it?"

I'm still trying to figure out what "premisquous" means... :-)

[Ma Cherie]

I understand what you mean. I've heard many people assume that someone from Asian descent is Chinese or Japanese. Yes, it's difficult to tell, but Asian cultures are not the same. I think a lot of people don't understand that. I have to correct people when they make the assumption that all Asians are the same. For instance, they would say something like: "If a Chinese and a Japanese person were to talk to each other, they'll understand what they're saying." The people who make comments like this are obviously very ignorant. I studied both Chinese and Japanese and they're are completely different languages. Meiki made a good point, too. For instance, in China more Chinese people are Han. And from what I've learned there's a group called the Manchus. The Manchus were known to be darker, and Manchu Chinese women didn't bind their feet. So, these are several differences.

I was just rambling about what I've learned, but then I don't why I act like I know these things. :?

[lexico]

"i said "woah, thats a bit of a premisquous kinda assumption isn't it?"

I'm still trying to figure out what "premisquous" means... :-)I paused for the same thing. I assumed he meant 'presumptuous.' :?

Edit: As for the cause of this, not as a random mistake, but as a language phenomenon, it could be said that due to the closeness of presumptuous << pre+sume "before+take" and assume << ad+sume "intensifier+take" a dissmilation may have influenced the two forms. The preference in English prose for dissmilar words may also have encouraged the dissimilation. Hence presumtuous >> promiscuous =pro+miscere "forth+mix." The usage of promiscuous 'composed of multiple parts, indiscriminate, sexually not restricted to one partner, irregular' isn't tollay contradictory with the context. The sense in the quote could have been 'loose, indiscriminate, irregular' or even 'irresponsible' by extension.

[Pachipro]

I have no trouble telling apart Chinese, Korean and Japanese, as long as they are natives.
I can usually tell apart Japanese from Chinese/Korean
I think people from these countries even have trouble figuring out which nationality other Asians are. My wife is Japanese. One experience we had is going to a Korean restaurant. When the Korean waitress came to take our order she spoke Korean to my wife assuming she was Korean. She was quite taken aback when my wife told her in English she was Japanese.

Another experience was in a Sushi bar run by Koreans. The sushi chef asked my wife what nationality she was. We got into a small conversation and he said that it was difficult for even him to tell what nationality an oriental looking person was and he was born and raised in Korea. He went on to say that it is not easy, in most instances, to distinguish between Japanese, Korean, and Chinese.

In Japan there are many Korean people who are fluent in Japanese and unless one asks, even the Japanese cannot tell if one is Korean or not. I wonder if the same holds true in China and Korea?

Here in the US alot of people ignorantly assume than any person of oriental ancestry is automatically Chinese. Just as in Japan alot of people automatically assume that any "gaijin" is American.

Remember, when one assumes, they make an "***" out of "u" and "me"

[AdriaticBlue]

Which is more PC.. Oriental or Asian? I always assumed Asian..

[lexico]

I find it very difficult to tell CJK people apart from purely physical features. The variation within just one group should far exceed any noticeable difference between groups. When I was in Beijing, I could not believe how Bejingers looked just like Koreans except for the visible double fold in the upper eye lids. Eye lids aren't very visible unless I got very close, so that was never a factor. Just a little difference in the way people dress maybe.

In the US, very few people could tell I was actually Korean; they guessed I was either Japanese or Chinese, and it never offended me. It was like an interesting guessing game. One thing I noticed about foregin students from Iran; the recent war and oppression they went through had left a scar on their face in the form of a slightly stressed expression. So after some wondering, I figured out why I could sometimes tell Koreans from the Chinese or the Japanese. But this only works in certain cases.

[Kinsao]

I think it's the same in Europe somehow. I would find it difficult to tell between (for example) German, Dutch, Danish, Swiss, Belgian person maybe, until I was able to speak to them. In the same way in UK, I couldn't tell English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish without speaking to someone.

[Gaijinian]

Just as in Japan alot of people automatically assume that any "gaijin" is American
It's odd, but a lot of people asked my if I was Australian. As previous posters said, it is just as hard to distinguish the nationality Asians, in the same way it is hard to distinguish the nationality of a American/European/Australian.

[lexico]

It's odd, but a lot of people asked my if I was Australian. As previous posters said, it is just as hard to distinguish the nationality Asians, in the same way it is hard to distinguish the nationality of a American/European/Australian.That is quite interesting, Ian. Your rather consistent experience might suggest that there is an Australian stereotype; I wonder what those might be. A certain accent, certain visible habits, or just to break the same old pattern of all-caucasians-must-be-USAmericans ? If it were the last case, it can be said that there is some effort to break the monotone caucasian myth in Japan. :?

[Aria28]

Hey, it's pretty hard to distinguish Europeans among themselves sometimes too. Most people assume I'm Italian because I fit the stereotype everyone (including my own coutrymen and women) have about Italians. I have this friend who's Portuguese but people think she comes from Arabia or something. I think, with all the marriages across borders, it's becoming tougher and tougher to tell people's origins just by there features. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you ask me. I'm pretty glad we get so many opportunities to meet people from all over the globe these days ^-^

[deadhippo]

i usually guess
i dont always voice my opinion but i usually guess
not just about race though
i quickly make many judgements about personality, status...all sorts of things
its not a racist thing its just my brain processing information
i think im quite good at distinguishing nationalities and in some cases races
esp from countires ive been to
i think it comes down to a lot of things
such as actual physical characteristics, hairstyle, clothes, posture, facial expressions etc.
when i see people speaking my ability increases and when i hear them it increases even more
im not just talking asians here
in fact im better at distinguishing europeans being from europe
i find southern europe easier than northern simply becasue i have been there
and have met more people from there, and from my country its easy

but i often made a wrong guess
even from my own country

but what does it really matter
actually people rarely guess my nationality correctly but i dont get offended by it and i wouldnt want someone else to be offended by it
i mean whats the point
its just race or nationality,its not an inferiority or superiority thing
and even if it was i believe those who believe that one race is superior to another are foolish

back tio the original poster


My friend then said , i said "what?, how do you know hes chinese?" he said he looks chinese, i said "woah, thats a bit of a premisquous kinda assumption isn't it?" he said, "what you mean?" i said "just because hes oriental doesn't make him chinese?".

he said "he's that chinese student"
that sounds like he has heard of this student before
and that guy was probably referred to as a chinese student
this can be understood by his use of the words "that Chinese"
im guessing he assumed that you had also heard of him or seen him
its also inferred from those words

so your friend made a racial generalisation...big deal
no one was hurt except you inexplicably
im sure if that student is korean and your friend meets him
he will become " that korean student"
but until then when he refers to "that chinese student" you will know who hes talking about...probably

language is simply a communication tool...if you understand what is being communicated then you are using it successfully and it is being used successfully

what im saying is, we dont need to be offended when langauge is being used in a not aggressive way and for those of you who are...chill winston

[Maciamo]

I have no trouble telling apart Chinese, Korean and Japanese, as long as they are natives. Foreign-born Chinese, Korean and Japanese are difficult to tell apart, but I don't know why that is. There are subtle facial, hairstyle, and eye differences among natives of the above three countries, but my method is not foolproof, and I'm not 100% correct in my assumptions (close, but not perfect).

When my wife and I are travelling outside Japan, we try to guess the nationality of East Asian tourists we see around. Young Japanese are usually the easier to distinguish because of the clothes, hairstyle and "kawaii" style. It's always easier when they are in group, as the way of communicating is different too. The way to find out if we were right is to listen to them talking and see what language it is. That's a fun game. We were in Turkey last month and were amazed at the number of Korean and especially Chinese tourists (not residents) compared to 5 years ago.

[Maciamo]

Which is more PC.. Oriental or Asian? I always assumed Asian..

Depends where you are from, as political correctness depends on your government. :p (the US being the most sensitive).

For me Oriental and Asian do not mean the same anyway. Oriental (whcih now sounds a bit old fashioned) means "East Asian", i.e. people from China, Korea, Japan and South East Asia (Myanmar and Tibet being the Western limit).

I admit that I usually amalgam Indians, Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Sri Lankans as just "Indians" in reference to the historical "Greater India". We could also say South Asians. Many Brits just say Asians, but it's too confusing as it could mean East Asians, Central Asians or even Middle Easterns.

[Yasha631]

I normally try not to make out loud assumptions about people's races, or even ask sometimes because I'm shy like that ^_^ and would rather avoid the conflict in general unless I know for sure. My physical therapist from a while back (very bad shoulder) had a very Japanese name, but I wasn't able to ask her about it until my last visit. Anyway, where I'm from, most people (mostly only students) are very ignorant of the difference between China and Japan >.<. Sometimes a kid will ask me "Hey, you speak Chinese, right?" and when I tell them no, I take Japanese, they come back with something like "It's the same thing, say something in Chinese!". I try to explain that there is a HUGE difference, but they often just don't get it. They're in SCHOOL they should KNOW these things! I guess these are the kids who don't listen in class -_-. I suppose since the only Asians they see are the people who own the World Buffet they assume any Asian, even Japanese, are Chinese people in a different location. I wouldn't even ask them about other Asian nations, because they probably don't know they even exist.... *sigh* I'm looking forward to college...

[Gaki]

I look Chinese (Because i am Chinese), but if i go into a Japanese supermarket they tend to talk to me in Japanese and i just stand there confused. :D

[lexico]

Sometimes a kid will ask me "Hey, you speak Chinese, right?" and when I tell them no, I take Japanese, they come back with something like "It's the same thing, say something in Chinese!".I suppose since the only Asians they see are the people who own the World Buffet they assume any Asian, even Japanese, are Chinese people in a different location.I wouldn't even ask them about other Asian nations, because they probably don't know they even exist.Those are pure gems. :shock: At least they aren't the malignant kind, and gave you those killer lines. :evil:I look Chinese (Because i am Chinese), but if i go into a Japanese supermarket they tend to talk to me in Japanese and i just stand there confused.I hope they didn't treat you badly once they found out you weren't Japanese. But they could be non-Japanese, too, just speaking it for the business ???
I can look Chinese (although I'm not), and I have a slight accent that makes people think I'm from some other part of China. In Beijing, I just say I'm from the South. In Shandong, I tell them I'm from Beijing. And in the South, I just tell them I'm from the north. And in Taiwan, I can say I'm from the mainland. I somehow get by, and nobody mistreated me for my accent. It sure helps to look like one for the language practice ! :D

[Sensuikan San]

I live in an extremely cosmopolitan area, wherein live folks from pretty much every country under the sun. Like Maciamo, my wife and I also try guessing the different nationalities around us - and it's very hard!

Oriental? - Yeah ... but, Japanese, Chinese, Korean ? - I have to listen to them.

Thai, Cambodian and Vietnamese tend to be of smaller stature than most - but ... I don't know any of their languages .. so ... ?

Central Amero-Indian, South Amero-Indian or even local aboriginal groups like Haida or Tlingit .... can be confusing.

Caucasians ... easy - if you can hear them! You can sometimes tell Slavic, Latin, Greek or Hispanic folks - but no guarantees - until you hear them.

....I suppose it's like a British humorist (Allen Sherwin?) once wrote ... "...Germans are usually tall, blond, blue-eyed people .... unless they happen to be short, dark-haired, brown-eyed Bavarians..."

Stereotyping is very dangerous stuff indeed !

Regards,

ジョン

[Ma Cherie]

I guess it's not what's on the outside that really determines our ethnicity. Cultural and social ideologies makes us what we are. You all know someone from China would to learn the ways of the Japanese if he or she were to emigrate to Japan. Same with Westerns. And yes, it's easier if you hear them speak. Espcially if you know what language they're speaking. :p

[Maciamo]

Anyway, where I'm from, most people (mostly only students) are very ignorant of the difference between China and Japan >.<. Sometimes a kid will ask me "Hey, you speak Chinese, right?" and when I tell them no, I take Japanese, they come back with something like "It's the same thing, say something in Chinese!". I try to explain that there is a HUGE difference, but they often just don't get it. They're in SCHOOL they should KNOW these things!

We have discussed about social classes (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15637) a while ago, and you see that is exactly the kind of behaviour/mentality that I would call "lower class". I know that for Americans class is mostly a matter of money, but for me (and most British people) it's all about one's way of thinking, one's attitude to life and the world, and the impression you make on other people (including way of dressing, speaking, one's general knowledge, etc.).

[lexico]

As Sensuikan-san and Ma Cherie point out, cuture, idea, and language seem to be THE determining factors (plus a little history which can overlap with culture) of one's ethnic identity more than physical appearance which is often indistinguishable.

One thing I try to avoid is the so-called 'physiological typologies' that varies widely from obscure science to bad science to physiognomy to phrenology mumbo-jumbo that's basically racism in pseudo-scientific lingo.

The samples they use for those kind of studies are so small it's only laughable, and their conclusions are no better than regurgiated 19th century eugenics and racist ideas due to their lack of rigorous scientific approach. One could probably make any two peoples related with carefully controlled or sieved if not manipulated data. Even DNA studies often fall into this trap; so much for the Buriyat-Japanese common origin: better stay safe with out of Africa theory than some weird stories not worth my time. bleh :p

[Kinsao]

It is really interesting... hey I'm glad it's not just me who has trouble telling people's race apart! Some of my friends say 'no problem' so I think maybe I'm too ignorant... but it seems other people have the same.

I'm glad you say about the 'typologies' too, because I was doubtful but I thought maybe just not knowledgeable (scientific) enough to see it. Also, there are some physiological characteristics that can be altered by stuff like living environment, diet, etc... so, it's difficult to know the 'cause and effect' that actually culture/lifestyle has physiological effect also... (I think my articulation becomes confused here! :p )

[PopCulturePooka]

Which is more PC.. Oriental or Asian? I always assumed Asian..
I know plenty of asians that HATE being called Oriental.

[budd]

i agree. what i was going to say.

[lexico]

I was told by a Chinese acquaintance that 'Oriental' carried a derrogatory connotation and that "Asian' should be used. So basically I understand that some people would feel that way although I personally never had the experience of someone using 'Oriental' in a such manner. Can someone shed some light on this ? The reasoning or some examples :?

[Gaki]

I hope they didn't treat you badly once they found out you weren't Japanese. But they could be non-Japanese, too, just speaking it for the business ???

They tend to just apologise and then repeat what they said in English, if they were rude about it i would just stop shopping there and probably be rude back. :D

Quite interesting you bring that up about non-Japanese staff, i've noticed alot of restaurants and supermarkets in London which are Japanese are actually owned (or have alot of staff) which are either Chinese or Korean.
Kinda funny when i used to go to Japanese restaurants with my Korean friend and she starts suddenly pointing out which staff is Korean and then starts talking to them in Korean.

Oriental i'm told is offensive because of something to do with occidental (sp?), cant remember where i read it i'll try to find the angry article later.
The only reason i dont like it is because of how Asian in UK only refers to Indians, Pakistani, (etc..) and they made up a word for far east Asians. I mean come on let's be realistic how much space in Asia does India actually take up ?? China alone is somewhat 50% of the land mass in Asia and population well... :p

edit: found article - http://antiracistaction.ca/montreal/oriental.html

[lexico]

Thanks for sharing that, Gaki. I've learned something new today. :)

[Shibuyaexpat]

I wonder how much of what we're able to discern (physically) between the various Far Eastern nations is based on both the viewer's and the subject's perception of socialized physical behavior versus a pure physiological trait. In other words, do we really see (empirically) physical differences or do we simply (as the viewer) project our own stereotypes and (as the subject) act as we were taught to behave, ie. national body language?

When I'm in a meeting or in a situation where I'm not speaking or actively involved, everyone who doesn't know me thinks that I'm Japanese. However, I've had numerous people tell me that they knew right away that I wasn't Japanese by the way that I walked (do Americans walk funny?) and more importantly, relied on hand gestures a lot to communicate. Hmm..makes me wonder how many times I've offended someone that way :P

As it is, Americans are WAY TOO sensitive about titles. I could care less if someone called me a Oriental or Asian. In fact, my most despised term is "Asian American." It's as if by adding that little bit extra "our" experience is somehow unique to the rest of America.

[Kinsao]

I sort of thought of the terms "Oriental" and "Occidental" as referring to "East" and "West" (as in 'the Orient' and 'the Occident'). But - to the east and west of what?! :? Anyway, I don't use the word Oriental when referring to people, because I always had some feeling that it was offensive, but, I don't know exactly why. I think I felt that it's more appropriate to refer to someone by their country (whatever they feel most comfortable with) rather than a generic term covering a huge area of the world and which can sound rather patronising. Also, I use the word Oriental to refer to some style or atmosphere (e.g. of design or architecture etc.) if I can't think what exactly country to use as comparison. So it seems patronising to use it for people. Again, I really don't know why (I wouldn't feel offence if someone calls me European).

To use 'Asian' is very confusing sometimes because Asia is so massive! So I tend to say if I'm not sure 'east Asian', 'west Asian' 'south Asian' etc... because I didn't think it so easy to offend someone merely stating fact of whereabouts in the world do they come from :worried:

However, I've had numerous people tell me that they knew right away that I wasn't Japanese by the way that I walked (do Americans walk funny?) and more importantly, relied on hand gestures a lot to communicate. Hmm..makes me wonder how many times I've offended someone that way :P

It depends what your hand gestures were, Shibuya... :victory:

[Kara_Nari]

I had a friend who was rather shocking, sweet as pie, but clueless when it came to ANY asian country. On her first day in New Zealand she was walking down the main street of Auckland with her boyfriend and said "Oh my gosh there are soo many Japanese here its like we're in Hong Kong". But wait it gets better... If we ever went to a japanese restaurant I would order in Japanese visa versa for Korean, then she would pipe up 'I would love to learn Japanese then I could travel to Japan, Korea, China and Thailand' when I pointed out that "No, you actually have to learn each countries language" she replied with: "But they would still know what I was saying wouldn't they?"
My special effects tutor was Japanese, had been living in America for numerous years, he would have great delight in stating that he was Oriental if anyone tried to call him asian...

[Shibuyaexpat]

I"Oh my gosh there are soo many Japanese here its like we're in Hong Kong". Well, I don't know about HK, but this comment would be true if it was Hawaii :p I don't know how many times I had to tell Caucasian Americans that I simply am NOT Japanese.

[Jack]

I look Chinese (Because i am Chinese), but if i go into a Japanese supermarket they tend to talk to me in Japanese and i just stand there confused. :D



Do you find this offensive?

[Gaki]

Do you find this offensive?

Not really, i think alot of the time they know im not Japanese but they say Japanese anyway just in case.

[Iron Chef]

"Oriental" is for cup noodles and rugs... I have always referred to myself as Asian-American and when people inquire about specifics, I give them my lineage.

[lexico]

Not really, i think a lot of the time they know im not Japanese but they say Japanese anyway just in case.I can fully understand the "just in case" part. and that safeguard is quite acceptable in the context of the Japanese market.

[Mycernius]

Which is more PC.. Oriental or Asian? I always assumed Asian..
Strangely enough, if you were to descibe someone as Asian to me I would think Indian or Pakistani area. I used to work with Sikhs and a few of them would refer to themselves as Asian. If you were to say Oriental, I would assume Japanese, Chinese or from somewhere else in the Far East. It might have something to do with the fact that England does have a much larger Indian/Pakistani population than Chinese/Japanese.
I do find it difficult to be able to distinguish between Chinese/ Japanese/ Korean. I have seen pictures of various oriental people put together and then you can see the difference. On thing I can do is recognise people from Nepal. This might have something to do with the fact I used to work on an army barracks with Gurkhas. We have also got a Gurkha resturant in the town and see planty of them shopping from the barracks.

[Jack]

Not really, i think alot of the time they know im not Japanese but they say Japanese anyway just in case.

its good that it doesn't bother you,
things like this are a common mistake i think, and some people just go with there gut instinct about there generalisation.

[lexico]

Oriental i'm told is offensive because of something to do with occidental (sp?), cant remember where i read it i'll try to find the angry article later.
The only reason i dont like it is because of how Asian in UK only refers to Indians, Pakistani, (etc..) and they made up a word for far east Asians. I mean come on let's be realistic how much space in Asia does India actually take up ?? China alone is somewhat 50% of the land mass in Asia and population well... :p

edit: found article - http://antiracistaction.ca/montreal/oriental.htmlThere seems to be that particular usage of "Asians" in UK English as Mycernius also points out. As for "Orientals" being offensive, there was a discussion started by Thomas: "Oriental" is Pejorative (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449&highlight=oriental+pejorative)

[lonesoullost3]

I have learned through experience that the colloquial definition of "Asian" (in the USA) depends on where you live. For example, along the West Coast of the USA (in California specifically) Asian is used mainly to describe people of Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese etc. descent. After this generalization, I find that the trend is to be specific as to where the person is from (Indian, Pakistani, Iranian, etc.). In the Mid-West, the use of "Asian" is used to describe exactly what it says - people from Asia. However, it does not include ethnic Russians or other caucasian peoples from Asia. I don't have much experience with the use of "Asian" on the East Coast, only what I've experienced in college (which is a very biased locale to base any observations from). I think the reason behind these different colloquial definitions lies in the relative population of different peoples of from the continent of Asia (trying not to use "Asian" :p). In California, Chinese and Filipinos consist of nearly 50% of the Asian population. In Colorado (mid-west experience), there are far far fewer people of Asian (again refering to the continent) descent. Perhaps the lack of concentration leads to a broader statement of people's ethnic backgrounds?

[Tsuyoiko]

There seems to be that particular usage of "Asians" in UK English as Mycernius also points out.

I can vouch for that, because as Mycernius says, there are a lot of people from the Indian subcontinent, but not nearly so many from the Far East, although I think that may be changing. The more ignorant among the British (at least where I live) seem to think that 'Pakistani' is the correct term when referring to anyone with brown skin.

[SharkLover]

I cant tell the difference..(no offenise any1)
the look the same...:p

[Bramicus]

Would it offend anyone if I said something like, "Who is that Asiatic-looking person over there?"

It gets pretty bad when there is no way to describe something in a way that doesn't offend someone!

[sabro]

Asiatic-looking sounds strange, but not offensive. Asian is perfectly okay with me.
(Oriental sounds antiquated, Japanese or Chinese- looking sounds like you already know where they are from specifically.)

[Bramicus]

It's easier when speaking directly to an Asiatic-looking person in America. Until I hear him speak, I just assume he's a fellow American, since we can look like anything at all. If I hear from his voice that he's not a native English speaker I can ask, "You seem to have an accent. Were you born in another country?" Then he'll say all I need to know, for instance "yes, I'm Chinese," or "yes, I'm a Korean-American."

[Miko-Kokoro]

Actually if you actually call a asian and asian if you don't know their cultural background they actually can becoem offended. I knew a few people like that, there was an asian pride thing going on in my school last year, it could get quite racist offent.

[Eve]

i dont know whats wrong with ur friend, but i can tell just by looking at an asian person apart from japanese, chinese and korean

[Jack]

i dont know whats wrong with ur friend, but i can tell just by looking at an asian person apart from japanese, chinese and korean


some people have trouble doing this, but its great that you have no problem,
good for you.

[sabro]

There was a quiz somebody posted with a dozen pictures that you were supposed to identify as either Chinese or Japanese. I got one less than half right- which means that not only am I bad at this, but I am also unlucky.

[Numark]

I actually think that if you pay attention, you can tell weather a person is chinese, japanese, or korean, just by thier facial shape. Of course that does not encompass all asian races, but most of the time i can tell which one an asian person is.

[Jack]

but most of the time i can tell which one an asian person is.

you can tell which "ONE an asian person is",

as if they're a piece of meat your just judging at a meat judging contest.

a bit of respect to them wouldn't go a miss.

[Pachipro]

I actually think that if you pay attention, you can tell weather a person is chinese, japanese, or korean, just by thier facial shape. Of course that does not encompass all asian races, but most of the time i can tell which one an asian person is.
Quite remarkable since even the Japanese and Koreans have a difficult time telling who is who. If you've read through all the posts you'd see that that is the case especially with Lexico's (who is Korean) posts. I lived in Japan for more than 15 years and I still have a hard time without listening to the language first.

[Jack]

see it's hard to tell the difference.

[lonesoullost3]

When I was exploring Kyoto with a friend there (100% Japanese, lives in Osaka) she went to ask someone directions from someone - but came back and told me they were Chinese. Everyone makes mistakes.

[Harvey]

http://www.alllooksame.com/

[Pachipro]

Very interesting link Harvy. Thanks. I suggest all take this test. It is not as easy as you think. I'm embarrased to say honestly that I only got three correct. :blush: How many more will be truthful with their results? I mean really truthful!

[Mycernius]

I got 8 out of 18. It told me I was bad. :p

[Bramicus]

I got seven right, but I was really guessing. I thought number 13 was Reverend Moon! Also, with the weird color hair I thought some of them were Martians. And did they have to make those strange faces? It was hard enough without that!

Actually, it's difficult for me as an American to try to guess nationalities by looks, since I'm not used to thinking that way -- every ethnic type imaginable looks to me like they could be American (and they could be)!

[Maciamo]

http://www.alllooksame.com/

The problem with this test is that they didn't choose people typical of their country. Maybe they even chose Asians born and raised in Western country. In that case it would be useless to try to find their nationality, as the tips that help find out whether one is Japanese, Korean or Chinese are almost exclusively :

- clothes, looks
- behaviour (influenced by cultural factors such as education and language)
- facial expression (this changes with one's mother tongue as the facial muscles used to pronounced the sounds unique to each language change this expression, which is why it is possible to distiguish Europeans between themselves).

Of course, it would be ridiculous to try to distinguish East Asians born and raised in another country. That's why most Japanese can't tell the Koreans or Chinese born and raise in Japan (who speak Japanese as their mother-tongue), but could more easily distinguish a Korean or Chinese born and raised in their respective country.

[Usagi-chan]

There's a site online where they show you 18 pictures of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean people and you have to guess who's who and I only got 4 right heh, three Japanese and one Korean if I recall. My test results said I was better off flipping a coin... :blush: eh I just say "Asian" now but I'm better at reconising Japanese people, but still I make no claims haha! :relief:

[Fukumoto]

:argue: :argue: :argue: I have no trouble telling apart Chinese, Korean and Japanese, as long as they are natives. Foreign-born Chinese, Korean and Japanese are difficult to tell apart, but I don't know why that is. There are subtle facial, hairstyle, and eye differences among natives of the above three countries, but my method is not foolproof, and I'm not 100% correct in my assumptions (close, but not perfect).

YOU STOLE MY PICTURE!!!

[Jack]

The problem with this test is that they didn't choose people typical of their country. Maybe they even chose Asians born and raised in Western country. In that case it would be useless to try to find their nationality, as the tips that help find out whether one is Japanese, Korean or Chinese are almost exclusively :

- clothes, looks
- behaviour (influenced by cultural factors such as education and language)
- facial expression (this changes with one's mother tongue as the facial muscles used to pronounced the sounds unique to each language change this expression, which is why it is possible to distiguish Europeans between themselves).

Of course, it would be ridiculous to try to distinguish East Asians born and raised in another country. That's why most Japanese can't tell the Koreans or Chinese born and raise in Japan (who speak Japanese as their mother-tongue), but could more easily distinguish a Korean or Chinese born and raised in their respective country.


is this a general problem for everyone,

you know being able to distinguish between chinese and Japanese?
some replies have said they can differentiate but how many people can say they can do it 100% each time they try.

[666Arigato]

I can recognize the difference in those of asian descent only sometimes.
I am dating a Korean girl and whenever we go out to an asian restaurant even she gets mistaken for someone who is Japanese.
It happens all the time.
We get a big kick out of it.

I find it much easier to listen to individuals speak their native tongue, which IMO is far easier to peg than looks.
Going simply on looks is very tough.

Calling someone of asian descent "oriental" is not very flattering, make a mental note.

sweet666

p.s. I got 9 right and the test said YOU ARE OK. :wave:

[Jack]

I can recognize the difference in those of asian descent only sometimes.
I am dating a Korean girl and whenever we go out to an asian restaurant even she gets mistaken for someone who is Japanese.
It happens all the time.
We get a big kick out of it.

I find it much easier to listen to individuals speak their native tongue, which IMO is far easier to peg than looks.
Going simply on looks is very tough.

Calling someone of asian descent "oriental" is not very flattering, make a mental note.

sweet666

p.s. I got 9 right and the test said YOU ARE OK. :wave:

its good you dont find people, who get your girlfriends race wrong and you dont find it offensive, thats very good, if only everyone dont take things to heart and the world would be a better place, eh?

[sabro]

Probably the best way to find our if they are Chinese or Japanese is to ask.

I'm half Japanese, hapa hakujin. I keep getting mistaken for Mexican. One neighbor called me Allejandro for three year in spite of correction. (How do you get Alejandro from Sabro?) I also get asked if I am Philipino, Samoan or Hawaiian. It usually makes me laugh. Every once in a while people peg me correctly and that surprises me.

[lexico]

I'm half Japanese, hapa hakujin. I keep getting mistaken for Mexican. One neighbor called me Allejandro for three year in spite of correction. (How do you get Alejandro from Sabro?) I also get asked if I am Philipino, Samoan or Hawaiian. It usually makes me laugh. Every once in a while people peg me correctly and that surprises me.Fascinating association !
三郎 さぶ-ろう being a male name, let's say (s)he did a cultural translation of the -andro part, man. But why and how the Alex- part ?

According to this name etylology site Behind the Name, Alexandro (http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=alexander) comes...From the Greek name Αλεξανδρος /Alexandros/, which meant "defending men" from Greek αλεξω /alexo/ "to defend, help" and ανηρ /aner/ "man" or the genitive ανδρος /andros/.

Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, is the most famous bearer of this name. In the 4th century BC he built a huge empire out of Greece, Egypt, Persia, and parts of India. This was also the name of emperors of Russia, kings of Scotland and Yugoslavia, and eight popes. Also, Sir Alexander MacKenzie was an explorer of the north and west of Canada in the 18th century.三郎 さぶ-ろう also means third son, or third male, but that is little help in this case. Let me loosen the strictness of the phonemes and go with a freer interpretation. In the vicinity of the sound sequence of /sabu-rou/ lies /samurai/ "a warrior, a palace guard" ! Aha, your neighbor had indeed deep cultural understanding of both Japanese and the etymology of Alexandro, and made an interesting three-step association :

/sabu-rou/ > /samurai/ > (Japanese to Greek) /Alexandro/ > (Espanyolizing) /Alehandrro/

For the three years that you corrected him, he may have nodded and smiled muttering, "I know, I know, that's why I'm calling you Alehandro !~" :D

[sabro]

Every time he said "Alejandro" I smiled and said "It's Sabro." He though I was giving him some kind of greeting in Spanish :)

[lexico]

I see half the picture now, but what was his name, if you can talk about it ? *getting really curious* :D

[Minxie]

I'm Japanese and I get it ALL the time.

It's:

A. RUDE
B. Ignorant
C. super-offensive b/c not every Asian looking person is Chinese
D. just plain stupid/stereotypical

Rant:

I don't appreciate being called Chinese when I am NOT a drop of it. You would think New York City would not be as stereotypical since it is so diverse, but think again. This has to be the most racial/prejudice/stereotypical society/city ever.

I don't appreciate people saying words to me in Chinese - whether you are Chinese or not - because they don't even ask me if I am, they just assume.

Apology:

I want to say more things on this, but I do not want to offend other races. If I have offended anyone, you can take your aggressions out on me.

[Minxie]

OH! i forgot to mention one thing:

People here don't even realize JAPANESE people exist.

I have asked my friends to guess, and random people i have met off the bat to guess my nationality.

They never guess Japanese... Chinese first... Flip second... and Korean...

I've gotten Viet, Thai etc.

I am 1/2 Japanese & 1/2 White.

Thank you.

[sabro]

Lexico- My neighbor's name is Dave- we all call him sensei because he "knows everything."

Minxie- welcome to the hapa club! My kids who are only 1/4 Japanese are always guessed to be asian of some type even though they are also 1/4 Mexican. I don't know why people think I am Mexican- I don't think I look remotely Mexican.

[lexico]

They never guess Japanese... Chinese first... Flip second... and Korean...

I've gotten Viet, Thai etc.Hmm... I can see that someone could get offended. People almost never got mine right. It was mostly Chinese, ca. 8/10, and then Japanese, ca. 2/10; all depending on how I dressed, I think. Almost never did anyone guess my Koreanness right. :(

There was a time that I expected correct recognition. After a rather huge number of failed guesses, and obseving that I myself could recognise Koreans only, but not other Asian nationaliteis, I basically gave up. Maybe I look different in people's eyes because I think different.

I knew some people from Iran; I could somehow tell Iranians by the facial expression they wore. From that I learned to recognise Koreans, too. War leaves scars...those are nasty things that leave scars. Not physical, though.

Back on topic, after a while I began to enjoy the guessing game. I would dress differently just for the kicks ! :D

[misa.j]

Back on topic, after a while I began to enjoy the guessing game. I would dress differently just for the kicks !
It would still be difficult to tell, I think; the ways men dress are not as recognizable as women's.
I've noticed that hair style, facial hair and wearing or not wearing glasses dramatically change a person's appearance.
I'm not sure if you can manipulate yourself to look certain nationality though.

[Gaki]

OH! i forgot to mention one thing:

People here don't even realize JAPANESE people exist.

I have asked my friends to guess, and random people i have met off the bat to guess my nationality.

They never guess Japanese... Chinese first... Flip second... and Korean...

I've gotten Viet, Thai etc.

I am 1/2 Japanese & 1/2 White.

Thank you.

lol

Some guy i was talking to once refused to believe me i was Chinese, he must have gotten it wrong like 7 times o_O

[Kinsao]

Some guy i was talking to once refused to believe me i was Chinese, he must have gotten it wrong like 7 times o_O

It's difficult to just tell someone's nationality/country from looking... but to not believe them :souka: it's really rude and ignorant. :okashii: I think it's fine to ask someone, but (a) believe their answer! (unless they obviously make a joke, like Martian or something, lol) and (b) remember their answer. I thought that was obvious... :p

[lexico]

I've noticed that hair style, facial hair and wearing or not wearing glasses dramatically change a person's appearance.
I'm not sure if you can manipulate yourself to look certain nationality though.I found certain patterns; and I expanded on them. Worked quite nice-- I think it was because it was a college surrounding with a lot of foreign students with lots of exposure and habits from home--just too busy to conform ! A lot of young people from all over Asia made it quite fun to observe, compare, and in my case, to act out. :DSome guy i was talking to once refused to believe me i was Chinese, he must have gotten it wrong like 7 times o_OI am terrible with names; although I never forget a face.
So I thought I should be more forgiving when another person forgot my name.
After a catholic priest asked my name for 2 yrs where I served in the sunday school, and still couldn't remember it, I made a religious decision to disown him for good; for I could not let him continue in his hypocritical life style esp. if I caused him further to sin ! :(

The old Hebrew judges used to say; forgive 7 times if he apologises. The new Jewish rabbis could say, forgive 7 times 7 times if he aplogises. The number seven must have meant a bug number after which a transgression becomes inhuman. 7 x 7 = 49; but I doubt it really meant the arithmetic number 49. I would say, "disown him !" Do not accept his apologies no more, for he is a hypocrite. But I guess you might forgive him if he can show you a medical record of a chronic mental illness. :evil:

[Jack]

It's difficult to just tell someone's nationality/country from looking... but to not believe them :souka: it's really rude and ignorant. :okashii: I think it's fine to ask someone, but (a) believe their answer! (unless they obviously make a joke, like Martian or something, lol) and (b) remember their answer. I thought that was obvious... :p

yeah, people can be mistaken and say the wrong nationality you can forgive that, but when someone becomes rude and doesn't believe you then i think its over stepping the mark.

[Usagi-chan]

It's difficult to just tell someone's nationality/country from looking... but to not believe them :souka: it's really rude and ignorant. :okashii: I think it's fine to ask someone, but (a) believe their answer! (unless they obviously make a joke, like Martian or something, lol) and (b) remember their answer. I thought that was obvious... :p

True true! And I know it and I'm not even Asian! As far as my background I'm racially diverse but both my parents are Jamaican so I'm like hey, I'm black, and people are like, no you're not. T__T People TELL ME I'm Hispanic... dude, I can't even speak Spanish... eh that's lie (everyone in south Florida needs to know how to speak it...). But that's beyond the point, I don't appreciate people assigning races to me. And they say because I was born in England I can't be black o_O. Eh I give up, human ignorance is brain-numbing...

[Jack]

i dont think anyone appreciates people assigning a race to someone just from an assumption