Explanation of Male Japanese Lolita Fetish?

[lonesoullost3]

I was watching a short news story on BBC about the tendency for Japanese males to have a lolita-style fetish. Typically, it's materialized in an image of the school girl or nurse. One of the interviewees said that this fetish comes from the Japanese man's inability to muster enough courage to face a woman his age. This is why he turns to someone who is younger - and as usually portrayed - helpless. This surprised me: the logic makes sense but it implies that a good portion of Japanese males are not confident in their own abilities. This seems that it would have implications outside of their private lives - not functioning to their full potential on the job perhaps. However, are there any psychoanalytical studies along these lines that anyone knows of? What are your thoughts?

[PopCulturePooka]

I think taht analysis is pretty much true.
Japanese men, the stereotyped office drone/systems engineer/IT guy/business man is a slave. To everything. To his company, his boss, his mother, his wife, the system, the world.
There is not much outlet for him, not many places to go or things to turn too for such a man to feel powerful. Too feel in charge.
A young girl is one of those few things. He percieves her as shy, innocent and most importantly submissive. He is submissive in his life. Even when he does good he shouldn't stick his neck out. In fact it will be his superiors that take credit for his accomplisment. Their jobs are jokes. Work 12 hour days but actually do the manpower of a 8-9 hour day with a lot of time wasting to look busy.

In my first year of living in Japan I read an article stating that the age of 'sexiness' or what have you that some men are finding acceptable in Japan has been steadily dropping. In the 80's and early 90's the most popular fetish was Office Ladies. Then College girls. Soon it was the high school or Junior College girls. The article then picked up on a trend of sexualising Junior High School girls a lot more. Also pointed out that growing but still not wholly accepted trend of some men sexualising Elementary school age girls. Hints towards that include that 11 year old bikini model with 'f-cups', the manga comic aimed at elementary school girls that explains the facts of life to young girls that is a sellout to the male otaku market and the fact that one of the highest purchasing demographics for Hello Project stuff is older men.
I think the reasons for the dropping in ages is kind of simple.

Years ago the OL ladies were sexy because feminism and womens rights took a long time to take hold in Japan (some maintain it still hasn't). They were still the nice submissive girls that made coffee etc. Then they started taking on feminist ideals somewhat. At least to the point that some men were intimidated by them or were now on an equal footing.
They went to college girls. Big mistake. Like colleges anywhere in the world, Japanese colleges are places where 'radical' thought can take hold in people. Eg... feminism, equal rights et al. that fad couldn't last if the girls weren't going to be submissive to the otaku and loser set.
High schoolers. Worked for a while... But they became a dominating market force, realised their sexual power over men and had a huge awareness of western thoughts, media and ideas. Anyone who has been to Japan for a while and interacted with 17-18 year olds there know how terrifying they can be. I say terrifying jokingly, but the ones with bodies and looks that men would find hot or sexy KNOW it and hence break out of the submission thing a little too much. Fantasy ruined.
Junior High School girls become the target for a man looking for his bit of dominance in the world. For now thats the lowest that things are acceptably at. But those Jnr High School girls are waking up to a few things as well. Give them a few years and they will be like 14 year olds anywhere else in the world.

At that point the only place to go is down. Down the age ladder.

I had this whole thing written out much more wonderfully, but a lot more venom. Should I post it here?

[ArmandV]

Interesting. Could this be the reason that a lot of Japanese women seem to gravitate towards gaijin men? They may see gaijin men more desirable as they don't have the inferiority complexes or hang-ups of J-men.

[Shibuyaexpat]

I would think that multiple factors contribute to women's attraction to men, and would also caution stereotyping all Japanese men as having these complexes/hang-ups. Granted, there are those examples that tend to stick out; however, if there's anything that i've learned here, the overt signals that are acceptable in Western culture (e.g., machismo, bravado, confidence) are sometimes frowned upon as outward overcompensations of an inward insecurity.

There's a lot being communicated here that's lost to a Westerner such as myself (I only began to understand after a close Japanese friend started to decipher some of the body language and looks). This does not mean that all silent men are brimming with confidence. Ultimately, what I'm saying is that it's not fair to judge another culture through the lens of our own biases.

As for the attraction to young girls, I hardly think that Japanese men are unique to this. It's just less repressed here than in the West. Think about this: Was Nabakov's Lolita a shocking piece because an older man slept with a young girl or because it publicized an unspoken eroticism that had always existed?

[Pararousia]

This may be the wrong thread to ask this question, but why do the young male pop-rockers (see pictures in other threads) all want to look like young girls? They're wearing make-up and some are wearing girls' clothes. I realize I'm "old" and out of touch, but they look the way Michael Jackson wishes he looked!

Is this some other part of a twisted-lolita thing???

[Ma Cherie]

That's a good question Pararousia. I wish I could answer it, though. This thread has reminded me of an article I read. It was about a thirty six year old japanese man who still lived with his mother and in his room he had a poster of a young middle school girl. The thing was is that he called her his "girlfriend" :souka:

[lonesoullost3]

Sorry I've been out of touch with the thread - I posted it and the next day i forgot where i had put it! :p The lolita fetish is clearly not isolated to Japan, however it is certainly much more openly emulated and known.

You have an interesting post there Pooka about the dropping ages of "sexy" women. Could this be a sign of not only changing interests, but perhaps a loss of confidence in themselves? I wonder if there is a connection between the political or economic state of the nation and the confidence of the "average" business man. Furthermore, I wonder if there is a specific group of males that lean toward the lolita fetish. This would make for an interesting study.

[nurizeko]

One word for Japanese men in man-woman situations.

Whipped.

Probably a bit of a generalization and overstatement but, alot of husbands i assume just dont stand up for themselves.

[Kinsao]

I believe that this has been discussed also in other thread(s), but, with my usual efficiency and brain power, I can't remember where. ><

There is the fact, mentioned in a previous post, that young girls are 'unthreatening' so men can feel easily dominant/superior to them.

Another aspect is that youth is often instinctively admired as a young woman or a girl in the mid- to late-teens is at a prime age sexually for reproduction/fertility, so it's quite a basic instinct. In a way, then, natural for youth to be 'sexualised' but of course in a 'civilised' society in modern life where everything is also 'commercialised' there tends to be that exaggeration, hence the 'marketable' girls get younger and younger. When one thing starts to become the norm, then a slight exaggeration seems sexier, and then slightly more, and so on and so on... :buuh:

[Ewok85]

Funny... my girlsfriends have all been older and I had a great time with some women 3-6 years older than me... I guess the whole loli-con mentality makes it more interesting for me!

[mihai]

Hello, i am new to this forum, and this is my first post.

Indeed i have read different articles about the lolita fetish, and many are related to what's already been posted around here.

But, i have one question.. I've read on other posts about the female attitude towards her husband. That the japanese style of living in a marriage is like this: the woman allows to her husband to watch adult movies whenever he wants, to go with different women, and so on, and the woman will just accept it.

So, is there nowadays still such kind of attitude and behaviour in the japanese couples? I am so curious..

Thank you.

[nurizeko]

No, mihai, most japanese women are like all women, you cheat on her she gets upset and jelious and yeah, as you would expect for such a betrayal.

[nice gaijin]

My girlfriend gets jealous if I mention my good friend who I dated for a single month... 8 years ago. I have never met a Japanese women willing to be a doormat for her man; don't believe the hype.

[mihai]

Thank you for the quick reply.

Yes i was also thinking so. That a japanese woman also has her integrity, her personality, and she is also a human being. Not just to raise the children, take care of houseworking and at the same, allowing the man to do different things.

But, off the topic.. do i have the wrong feeling that the japanese woman still has not reached the level of the independent woman that you can find in Europe, America or Australia?

[pipokun]

...
But, off the topic.. do i have the wrong feeling that the japanese woman still has not reached the level of the independent woman that you can find in Europe, America or Australia?

つhint: soccer mom

[mihai]

I don't see beyond this concept: "soccer mom". Can you please explain it to me?

[DoctorP]

My girlfriend gets jealous if I mention my good friend who I dated for a single month... 8 years ago. I have never met a Japanese women willing to be a doormat for her man; don't believe the hype.


I agree with you to an extent, but you have to admit that in a public setting the woman is willing to take a backseat and endure quite a bit...then when they get home, the man gets what is coming to him! I have many friends, and I know that their wives are not "doormats", but they accept quite a bit of poor behaviour and treatment in public in order to allow their husbands to have good standing, or not lose face, in company of other men.

[mihai]

Is it true that in most cases the woman is the one who administrates and manages the expenses in the house? True that the woman is the accountant in the family?

[pipokun]

Depends upon you if you feel happy or disappointed to see Japanese women different from your image. But I'm afraid you should not have the image, J women are dependent or whatever, too much.

[kirei_na_me]

Yes, the woman is the accountant of the family. I grew up in a setting where the men were in charge of the money, so it was very, very hard for me to get used to my husband expecting me to take care of the finances.

Thank goodness I persuaded him to take care of the finances, because I didn't trust myself doing it.

He will still ask me if he can buy something, though. From a motorcycle on down to some thread he uses for his leather hobby(no, nothing interesting like whips), he will ask my persmission, or at least tell me, he's going to get whatever it is.

My husband told me long ago "men are boss outside the house, women are boss inside the house". Or something like that. J-women are much stronger and smarter than some give them credit for.

[Kinsao]

"men are boss outside the house, women are boss inside the house"
That's interesting, that's almost exactly the philosophy of some of my Arabic relatives!
They are Muslims, in moderate way (i.e. the women do not have to wear the full covering dress, the women have jobs etc. ... these of my family are living in the uk right now...) and the women in the family are all noticeably strong characters, and rule with an iron fist! :blush:

In the household where I grew up, my father was the money earner, but my mom did all the calculations, because my father didn't have the patience to do it! :p

[Rich303]

J-women are much stronger and smarter than some give them credit for.

My (now ex, I think) japanese girlfriend is a strong woman.
She runs her own business, has to chase after freelance work and look after her daughter more or less on her own. I think she's pretty amazing really.

I've never desired this cliche (although I don't think quite as many men believe it now) of a submissive, doormat japanese woman.
Who wants that? - No fun in bed for a start!
I just find dark, exotic looking women very attractive.
Unfortunately there are still people who believe this idea that Japanese (or indeed Asian in general) females are more submissive. Maybe this cliche will slowly die out in the future.

[ArmandV]

I've heard that Japanese men are pretty helpless without a wife. I guess that tells us who wields the power in the household.

[kirei_na_me]

I've heard that Japanese men are pretty helpless without a wife. I guess that tells us who wields the power in the household.

And that is pretty much true, I think.

[dreamer]

Hum...I guess it depends on people...we all have a different personnality and japanese women are the same...
From my past experience interacting with asian women, I can tell that they tend to look submissive way outside the house but when they're at home they're really bossy, and sometimes although rarely, even more violently than EU ones. (No way I'll ever date one!! :P )

[Mars Man]

It just reminded me of one episode. I went to one of my student's house for dinner with the family one night two weeks back, and I recall her (the student's) father saying "okusan ha kowai"--my wife is scary. Of course it was just a figure of speech, but I could feel his true emotion coming out in it. (and this guy is a roofer, well built, and very masculine)

After a number of drinks, he wanted to go sing some karaoke, so he and his wife, the oldest daughter (not my student) and I got in the car and drove down to the nearest snack (small drinking place run by a moma san). His wife got out of the car too, and went in only to see who was there before going on back home. We stayed there and sang and drank until his wife later called and ...well I don't know what she said, but that same daughter came and got us and we went back home then.

So, there's got to be some truth to it, after all.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

It just reminded me of one episode. I went to one of my student's house for dinner with the family one night two weeks back, and I recall her (the student's) father saying "okusan ha kowai"--my wife is scary. Of course it was just a figure of speech, but I could feel his true emotion coming out in it. (and this guy is a roofer, well built, and very masculine)
After a number of drinks, he wanted to go sing some karaoke, so he and his wife, the oldest daughter (not my student) and I got in the car and drove down to the nearest snack (small drinking place run by a moma san). His wife got out of the car too, and went in only to see who was there before going on back home. We stayed there and sang and drank until his wife later called and ...well I don't know what she said, but that same daughter came and got us and we went back home then.
So, there's got to be some truth to it, after all.

The wife sounds like she is either too controlling/possessive or paranoid(or both). Over-protectiveness over somone is usually a sign of insecurity.

[sabro]

Sounds like my cousin's wife. Even when we visit, we only come in the front room and we rarely see her at all.

[dreamer]

Well... I thought it was a normal behaviour among asian women... ^^'

[ewomack]

Many of Studio Ghibli's movies include very strong female characters (especially Miyazaki's film). They're usually quite young, but go through a huge ordeal and come out even stronger. This didn't fit with a stereotype that I still often hear about Japanese women living oppressed under the shadow of male "macho" culture. But the more Japanese people I talk to the more this seems horribly inaccurate. I've known some western women who flew into a rage when they heard about the Japanese custom of the woman walking a few paces behind the man in public. "Sexist! Prejudice! Male domination!" they shout. But Japanese people that I've asked about this say that this symbolizes the woman "ruling from behind". With the man in front, she can keep her eyes on him.
Also, In some Studio Ghibli movies, men are depicted as very weak compared to strong women. For instance, the big beefy pirates in "Porco Rosso" squirm when a young girl begins to shout at them. They seem strangely helpless in the company of women or children. This discussion may have shed some light on my confusions concerning this topic.

[mihai]

I know that this is really not the right topic for this question, but.. is there the practice of arranged weddings for young people in Japan? Like it was happening in the old days? When the families were arranging the relationships, and then the boy and the girl were just going to get marry? Is it still this practice?

[Timsan]

well in ancient japan girls married off at 13. obviously this is not acceptable today, but keep in mind that young girls occupied a different sector of mid-eval japanese society.