the Japan of olden times,

[Jack]

The days that samurai ruled (not so long ago), the days people lived by the sword and died by the sword.
I believe myself that japan had one of the most glorious histories than every other country, and the days of the samurai were greatness.

The times started to change late 1860's onwards, and Japan opened itself up to the world and begun to change with the world, and so became the time, when the samurai class was becoming obsolete.

There were those that stood and fought to defend the honour of the samurai, there were a few that chose to lay there sword down, which one would you be?

Would you defend your honour and fight to keep the samurai spirit going, to preserve your honour or would you lay down your sword and help move Japan into the future?

[lonesoullost3]

Samurai spirit, eh? Well that really really depends how you look at it. I'm at work, but I'll come back and post an essay I wrote on this topic of samurai "honor"...it's not all you think it is ;).

[Shibuyaexpat]

From what are you basing this samurai honor? Movies? Books? My ex-gf is from a daimyo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimyo) and her father explained to me that the romanticized notion that samurai were these philosopher warriors is simply not true. Granted there were some exceptions to the rule, but generally, the samurai can be equated to modern day street gangs (his words), whose primary motivation was to live and eat from day to day.

The samurai stories are not better and no worse than myths in America about the "heroic" gunfighters/sheriffs/cowboys/etc.

[Mike Cash]

The days that samurai ruled (not so long ago), the days people lived by the sword and died by the sword.
I believe myself that japan had one of the most glorious histories than every other country, and the days of the samurai were greatness.

If you define instability, strife, slaughter, lack of civil liberties, and a rather rigid caste system glorious then yeah, it was glorious.


The times started to change late 1860's onwards, and Japan opened itself up to the world

Gee....I wonder why they suddenly decided to do that.

[pipokun]

After reading more about ordinary Edo people or lives than samurai stories, I came to think that the Edo was not that darkened era.
The Tokugawa shogunate rejected an introduction of big and convenient carriges in consideration of work-sharing; there were dealers buying your excretions for organic farming. What a sh*t feudal Edo period was!

Though I'd rather take a bullet train to Kyoto than walk through for more than 10 day, I think you can find a lot of interesting stories to learn much from the Edo without thinking the right or left.

[Shizu Seraph]

There were those that stood and fought to defend the honour of the samurai, there were a few that chose to lay there sword down, which one would you be?

Would you defend your honour and fight to keep the samurai spirit going, to preserve your honour or would you lay down your sword and help move Japan into the future?

geno, we're in the 21st century, hello? People have different morals nowadays.

The samurai were no different from our perception of knights: valiant, courageous, "honorable"... Crap. Shibuyaexpat is right, our perceptions of the samurai are mostly romanticized and exaggerated. The Japanese notion of honor is quite twisted. They value it more than their lives. It's said that "honor is as heavy as a mountain, and our lives as light as a feather." Furthermore they give overwhelming loyalty to lord and to the all-too mortal emperor. To protest against the lord means... yep, Seppuku!!

Alright then, live by the Bushido code and you'll find it very difficult to cope with reality. Bushido requires the suppression of one's individual rights, and eventually, his humanity. To name a few:
- You can't express your emotions ("men don't cry, remember')
- You have to shave your forehead
- Extreme obedience to the lord is a must (even if it kills you)
- There are no second chances (strike one and you get Seppuku)

Did you know that this was the basis for the Japanese Imperial Army's training during World War 2. Soldiers then were trained to fight mercilessly; sparing none, looting, raping even the oldest woman, and even using prisoners for "killing exercises". They disregarded the rules of war and human rights, all for the sake of honor! That's how appaling Bushido can be.

Still not enough? I suggest you read "Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang. Maybe that would shake you off your rocker.

[lonesoullost3]

Hey, I got really busy the other day so I didn't have time to include my essay. Here's the essay I wrote on the subject of honor in the 12th-16th centuries. It's not one of my best essays, but it's exactly what this topic is on, so I thought I'd include it.

If you wish to read the essay with my sources and citations (and better formatting) download the attached read-only doc.

Defining Honor: Uncovering the Truth behind Contemporary Views of Samurai

When most people hear the word “samurai”, they immediately think of the stereotypical honorable samurai – a samurai who’s loyal to his master, helps the needy, and works for the common good. However, this was not always the case. To best see the samurai’s state of affairs in medieval Japan, I turn to literary accounts of events during the 12th through 16th century as well as Bakufu edicts. Through these sets of sources we see that not all samurai were honorable. The documents reveal a samurai who did not live to serve, as his name suggests, but lived for his own benefit and survival.

Our first step in analyzing the lives of the Samurai is defining honor during medieval Japan. Honor has two definitions: one from an internal standpoint and one from an external. The internal side of honor revolves around the samurai’s survival and betterment of social status. This represents the opportunistic and power-hungry side of the budding warrior class during medieval Japan. The other side of honor is the external perspective – what society views as an honorable samurai. This view is closely related to the samurai’s moral responsibility to others. Moral obligation relates to the character of the samurai in the eyes of society. How you appear in the mind of others has long been a strong influence on the way people act. By doing “good” deeds that help society and by accomplishing difficult tasks, the samurai’s social reputation will increase. On the other hand, there were many ways to be shamed in medieval Japan. For example, capture during battle was among the most shameful events that could happen to a samurai. By avoiding causes of shame, the samurai would safeguard his reputation; by performing duties for others the samurai would augment his reputation. Both the internal and external sides of honor can be ultimately traced to pragmatism. Obviously the samurai’s survival is a pragmatic decision. An example of this was when nearly 20,000 samurai under the command of Kobayakawa defect to the opposite die at the battle of Sekigahara in 1600 in pre-Tokugawa Japan. Kobayakawa was officially loyal to the Western Army headed by Ishida Mitsunari, however mid-battle Kobayakawa charged against the Western Army, deciding to join sides with the Eastern Army led by Tokugawa Ieyasu. This decision was practical on two levels. First, it insured Kobayakawa’s survival by not being on the losing side (for he was aware of the winning chances of the Western Army). Secondly, and related to the first reason, Kobayakawa also avoided, if not death, being shamed on the battlefield by being captured. Ironically, after his betrayal, Kobayakawa was indeed looked down upon by other samurai. However, the question is which would have been more shameful. We can only assume that in the mind of Kobayakawa, to lose and be captured (or die) would have been more shameful. Thus, in this example we see that the samurai chose the less shameful of two actions, and in doing so further insured his survival if it wasn’t thus already. Some may argue that this event is out of context for the definition of honor in medieval Japan. However the basic foundations of honor remained the same – the pragmatic need to survive. Even though we can find the source of honorable actions in pragmatism, we must still separate the perspectives of internal and external honor. With this in mind, a samurai may be honorable to himself, but may be less honorable in the eyes of society.

Our first historical document of interest is the Imagawa Letter (14th century) purportedly authored by Imagawa Sadayo, otherwise known as Ryōshun. The letter was originally written to Ryōshun’s younger brother Nakaaki to admonish him for his personal and political faults. The letter has two parts, but because the second half of the letter is under speculation as to whom wrote it, I will only examine the first half of the letter. The first half outlines twenty-three faults in Nakaaki’s behavior. Among these are several criticisms that stand out. First is admonishment I, “As you do not understand the Arts of Peace, your skills in the Arts of War will not, in the end, achieve victory.” By berating Nakaaki in this way, Ryōshun shows that a samurai is not only responsible for fighting for his lord or the Court, but to maintain peace in his own realm as well. This contradicts the general perspective of the samurai as a defender of the peace. Ryōshun is saying that Nakaaki lacks the abilities of a defender of the peace and is only a herald of war. A second admonition that stands out is VI, “In your actions you disregard the moral law by evading your public duties and considering your private benefit first.” This is a perfect example of a samurai living for their own well-being and survival – the internal side of honor. The “moral law” which Ryōshun mentions can be found in the external side of honor – the way society perceives an honorable samurai. Therefore, in this statement Ryōshun says that a samurai should exhibit qualities more characteristic of the external face of honor rather than following the samurai’s selfish whims – the internal face. By saying so, he shows the states of affairs in medieval Japan were clouded by samurai acting for their personal benefit and ignoring their moral obligations (in Ryōshun’s eyes) to society. A final criticism that acts as testimonial to an internal side of honor is criticism XIV, “You should not envy those who prosper by wickedness, nor should you take moral decay lightly.” Though this does not directly provide any insight into how samurai acted during medieval Japan, it does hint at what was occurring at the time. Because Nakaaki envied those who “prosper[ed] by wickedness,” it implies that this was a common way to gain power and prestige. If only few samurai gained power through immoral methods, then there would be no need to berate Nakaaki on such a general basis as “those who prosper…” This broad use of “wickedness” to gain prosperity correlates with admonition VI and the ignorance of “moral law.” By striving for personal benefit and ignoring moral obligation, a samurai is able to gain prestige and power – an inherent goal to the internal side of honor. By highlighting these three criticisms of Nakaaki’s behavior, it is clear that the contemporary stereotype of a medieval samurai is hardly correct, and it appears that in the opposite lies the truth. Some will argue that this letter does not discuss the actions of all samurai, but of a single lord, and therefore provides no insight into the honorable or dishonorable actions of medieval Japan. However, even though Ryōshun directs his letter only to Nakaaki, we can find further proof that Nakaaki’s actions were far more common than one might initially think.

The “Formulary for the Shogun’s Decision for Lawsuits (1232)” outlines forty-eight crimes and lawsuits and how each should be resolved. Several of these pertain to actions by shugo, who were samurai appointed as regional administrators/protectors in medieval Japan. One such article is article four, which discusses Protectors (shugo) confiscating property from judicial offenders. The article suggests that a shugo makes a report to the Kamakura about the crime before taking on any judicial action. However, the document also states “there are some [shugo] who without ascertaining the truth or falsehood of an accusation…arbitrarily pronounce the escheat of the criminal’s [land and property] and selfishly cause them to be confiscated.” This manner of gaining a foothold over land could be the foundation for Ryōshun’s implication of widespread wickedness to gain power. The fact that a law had to be made to counteract such an action suggests that it was a problem that was not localized, but had propagated through Japan. Interestingly, there was no punishment outlined in the article for such shugo, but rather there was a threat to treat immoral land seizure as a crime. This shows that the Kamakura was also aware of the frequency of these actions in samurai behavior, but was willing to give the samurai an opportunity to reform. Another interesting article is Article 15 – the crime of forgery. This article states: “If a samurai commits [forgery], his fief shall be confiscated; if he has no investiture he shall be sent into exile.” Again, we can apply the logic of “if there is a law against it, it is widespread.” Samurai would occasionally forge documents to show they owned deeds to land which were not officially granted to them. This again represents a “wicked” means of attaining power similar to what Ryōshun mentioned in the Imagawa Letter. A further document which suggests the externally viewed dishonorable actions discusses the increase of shugo powers in 1346. This document lists eleven activities in which a shugo should never participate. The eleventh activity listed in the document does not relate to land, but to the service of others. It states a shugo “shall not erect new barriers or asses transit (harbor) taxes.” The shugo would reap monetary benefit from travelers by instating such taxes and barriers in has lands. This obviously is a selfish quest for financial status, which, at the same time, impedes the travel of other citizens and places an economic burden on them. By enacting this law, the Bakufu places the wellbeing of the populace above the ambitions of the shugo. Furthermore, this law acknowledges that such actions are widespread: “It is said that these items prohibited are widely practiced these days.” Here is a document with which we can say with certainty and minimal speculation that such immoral activities were indeed common in medieval Japan. With this final documentary example, Ryōshun’s admonishments to Nakaaki are placed into a historical context that applies to a general class of warrior. Furthermore, it show that the morally good samurai, as perceived today, was not the common figurehead of medieval Japan.

Besides looking at historical events to counter the common belief of the honorable samurai, we can look to literary documents as well. However, literary documents are a double-edged sword. Surely they provide us with accounts of events during a time period, but these events may in fact be the opposite of what was actually occurring. Along those lines, literary documents are inherently laced with biases of the author, setting forth a further proving ground to differentiate fact from fiction. Keeping this in mind, I examine a tale about Minamoto no Yorinobu in Hiroaki Sato’s Legends of the Samurai. In this tale, Minamoto no Yorinobu acts as a negotiator between Lieutenant Chikataka and a thief who was holding his son prisoner. Yorinobu is able to free the boy from the thief, but then, contrary to what our previous discussion may make one think, he makes the thief free. This action shows a literary view of what characteristics an honorable samurai should exhibit. Because of this, the honorable samurai is defined from a social standpoint – the external side of honor. Therefore, this story possibly provides insight into what actions defined the external side of honor. If this is true, then clearly mercy and negotiation are honorable attributes. The art of negotiation as a worthy attribute was also implied by Ryōshun when he wrote of the “Arts of Peace.” It is also possible to interpret this story as an ode to the few samurai who did exhibit such characteristics. Considering many literary tales about samurai seem to emphasize honorable (again defined externally) actions, there must have been some basis for this common theme. It is unlikely that many authors acquired a similar view of an honorable samurai at the same time. Therefore, it is quite possible that such tales are indeed praises to such samurai. However, at the beginning of the tale Yorinobu tells Chikataka, “Let your son be stabbed to death, if need be. Only with that attitude can you call yourself a warrior.” This line seems extremely contradictory to the personality of Yorinobu as expressed later by his release of the thief. Now the story could possibly be seen as a combination of reality, but on two different levels. The first level is the common view of samurai – a selfish side of samurai that is willing to sacrifice a son to be a great warrior. The second level, which is more developed, is that of the selfless samurai, one who is merciful and skilled in the “Arts of Peace.” If this is so, then contemporary stereotypical samurai did exist, albeit in few numbers. However, they were anything but the stereotype of samurai in medieval Japan.

Contemporary movies and literature have implanted an image of a Robin Hood-esque warrior of medieval Japan in the majority of society. From examining historical documents and comparing them to representations of medieval Japanese literature it is clear that this stereotype was actually the minority. Even though many literary tales emphasize this stereotype, it is quite possible such stories were odes to the rare type of samurai that was loved by society. On the other hand, the majority of the samurai population exhibited traits which society deemed dishonorable even though to the samurai, their actions were perfectly honorable. The internal system of honor made their actions thus because they ensured survival and social status. Even though there are dishonorable and honorable samurai in the eyes of society, there is no such differentiation when comparing from the internal side of honor. A samurai will always do what he thinks is honorable, thus he will always be honorable in his mind’s eye. Therefore, samurai can be categorized into two groups defined by external honor: those who were honorable and those who were dishonorable. Ironically, the contemporary view of the warrior is the minority and therefore isn’t representative of samurai during medieval Japan.

[Jack]

well i guess i never thought of it like that, i mean for every good samurai there must of been about 10 bad samurai that just bullied people and threatened the weak.

So was it a good thing that times had changed?

[Mike Cash]

It's called "progress" and is generally viewed as a good thing. There was the expansionist/imperialist era and associated unpleasantness which arguably arose out of it, but taken all around, it turned out for the best.

Can you imagine if Japan had remained closed up until the present day? We'd view the Japanese lifestyle in much the same way we view newly discovered primitive groups in the Amazon.

[Jack]

true, would it of been unable to stay closed off though?

with the way the world has grown?

[Mike Cash]

It isn't very likely that it would have managed to stay closed off this long. However, given Japan's paucity of natural resources and the lack of economic/trading power that would come from a closed and nonindustrialized society there wouldn't have been much incentive for anyone to force them to open up outside of political or military reasons. Presumably, the closed era could have continued for quite some time longer than it did. At least a few decades, I would guess.

[pipokun]

It's called "progress" and is generally viewed as a good thing. There was the expansionist/imperialist era and associated unpleasantness which arguably arose out of it, but taken all around, it turned out for the best.

Can you imagine if Japan had remained closed up until the present day? We'd view the Japanese lifestyle in much the same way we view newly discovered primitive groups in the Amazon.

What's the next progress? We all need it, I guess.

[Mike Cash]

Break up the OB/Amakudari system, introduce accountability for politicians and bureaucrats, and get the government to understand that taxing your way out of a recession makes about as much sense as as borrowing your way out of debt.

[pipokun]

Yes, "fairness" should be a right word for next couples of decades, esp., in the context of J politics. But the darkend Edo still has longer history even when I count Meiji and Taisho eras for progressed Japan.

I am not saying that our lives should be like in the Edo, but just that we may learn something from the darkness. So I hope geno keeps his interest upon samurai or whatever.

[Duo]

I would be one of the ones fightin for revolution. The samurai system was not smth as great as people make it to be. Honor and sword and whatever, that's just a bunch of crap, reality was harsh and that was a bloody system with no regard for human life. There is nothing glorious about it. What's so honorable about testing your new sword on an innocent human being ?

[pipokun]

I would be one of the ones fightin for revolution. The samurai system was not smth as great as people make it to be. Honor and sword and whatever, that's just a bunch of crap, reality was harsh and that was a bloody system with no regard for human life. There is nothing glorious about it. What's so honorable about testing your new sword on an innocent human being ?
Tell me the reality, harsh bloody system more.
I know it was terrible when they were in wars, earthquakes, famines, or Mt. Fuji erruption.
I'm wondering why the tokugawa shogunate did not develop any weapons to control people more severely after the terrible civil war era, but enjoyed haiku, karakuri machine, mathmatics or even porns.

Well, it was non-Japanese who reevaluated most Edo cultures after Meiji, though.　There was even an Australian Rakugo comedian then. :)

[lonesoullost3]

I am not saying that our lives should be like in the Edo, but just that we may learn something from the darkness.

History is man's #1 teacher (man I wish I could quote somebody on that and sound all wise, but oh well :p).

[Mike Cash]

I'm wondering why the tokugawa shogunate did not develop any weapons to control people more severely after the terrible civil war era, but enjoyed haiku, karakuri machine, mathmatics or even porns.


"Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes its laws or its songs either. " Mark Twain

[Duo]

Tell me the reality, harsh bloody system more.
I know it was terrible when they were in wars, earthquakes, famines, or Mt. Fuji erruption.
I'm wondering why the tokugawa shogunate did not develop any weapons to control people more severely after the terrible civil war era, but enjoyed haiku, karakuri machine, mathmatics or even porns.

Well, it was non-Japanese who reevaluated most Edo cultures after Meiji, though.　There was even an Australian Rakugo comedian then. :)

Who enjoyed them? Only the elite upper classes, the samurai and damyo and lords. The peasants were in horrible conditions, workin rice patties their entire life. I've read enough to get a clear picture. The samurai system was based on the good living of a few by supressing the majority. I'm not saying that there were no arts and no positive things, just that well most of the nation lived subhuman conditions. Furthermore the image of samurai being all these brave fearless warriors is a bit bloated. Sure there many like that, but there also a load of them that were abusing their powers and didn't even live up to that code of honor. Why must we always paint such a rosy picture of Japan then ? Beautiful Geishas walkin in parks covered with cherry blossom petals and brave warriors with shining swords discussing haiku and arts together and all having just a merry time when peasants were staving to death and the burakumin isolated in restricted areas with famine runnin rampant in the nation. People here have seen too much anime.

[pipokun]

Who enjoyed them? Only the elite upper classes, the samurai and damyo and lords. The peasants were in horrible conditions, workin rice patties their entire life.
What have you read before?

You don't say all farmer/pesants were the untouchable, right?
After reading more books upon the life of ordinary people in the Edo, mainly Tofu cooking in the Edo :), like I said above, I cannot say the era was that bad as people claiming all histories must be progressed.

What's the differences?

I am sure that all Japanese would follow suit if someone create a progressive post post-modernism.

[Duo]

I'm not saying the era was that bad, i'm saying it was not that good. Let's not forget the rampant pedophelia of younger males for example. The Edo era was similar to the middle ages in europe, maybe slighter better off in some aspects such as city sanitation conditions and more sexual openess, but the role of women in japan for example was even inferior than those of in Europe. There was still the practice of concubines whereas in Europe monogamy prevailed although mistresses existed. Again i'm not saying that Japan was a bad place or whatever in the Edo era ; I'm just saying that I don't think one can call that a golden era. Personally I prefer Japan in the beginin g of Meiji and the period leading up to it; it's the part that interests me most. Furthermore, Japan was so closed from the world during the Edo era that it was missing out so much on new inventions and progress. And I think that it was a positive thing that Comodore Perry forced Japan to open its ports, this way the country realized how weak it actually was from the old feudal system and began to want reform and progress.

[lonesoullost3]

I'm wondering why the tokugawa shogunate did not develop any weapons to control people more severely after the terrible civil war era, but enjoyed haiku, karakuri machine, mathmatics or even porns.

Tokugawa was a genius when it came to controlling the populace. People consider Louis XIV a genius absolutist ruler as well. If you compare the too Louis XIV came much later) they used nearly the exact same methods. A brief outline of these methods are:

1. He moved daimyo from their traditional regions in Japan to new regions. This prevented them from forming a following in the local areas and would thus prevent future chances of civil disobedience and treason.
2. He kept family members of the daimyo at the shogunate castle (my memory fails me as to where the castle was located at this point). This acted as a point of power over the daimyo.
4. He relocated daimyo who had long been loyal to his family in key strategic positions in the country. Daimyo that had only recently joined his cause were put in less strategic positions and with less resources. Again, this goes to discourage treason.
3. He built new castles with expensive stones and interior decorations. This is similar to the palace at Versailles. The castles acted as a sign of his power and his "awesomeness" (in an aural sort of way). This made the general populace in awe of Tokugawa.

These four simple actions are what allowed Tokugawa to control the country without the need for weapon's development and allowed the culture to develop. I hope this answers your question.

[pipokun]

Tokugawa was a genius when it came to controlling the populace. People consider Louis XIV a genius absolutist ruler as well. If you compare the too Louis XIV came much later) they used nearly the exact same methods. A brief outline of these methods are:

1. He moved daimyo from their traditional regions in Japan to new regions. This prevented them from forming a following in the local areas and would thus prevent future chances of civil disobedience and treason.
2. He kept family members of the daimyo at the shogunate castle (my memory fails me as to where the castle was located at this point). This acted as a point of power over the daimyo.
4. He relocated daimyo who had long been loyal to his family in key strategic positions in the country. Daimyo that had only recently joined his cause were put in less strategic positions and with less resources. Again, this goes to discourage treason.
3. He built new castles with expensive stones and interior decorations. This is similar to the palace at Versailles. The castles acted as a sign of his power and his "awesomeness" (in an aural sort of way). This made the general populace in awe of Tokugawa.

These four simple actions are what allowed Tokugawa to control the country without the need for weapon's development and allowed the culture to develop. I hope this answers your question.
Thank you for the info. I want to say that is what I want, but I've already learned them and I can tell you more about the dark side of the era.

But there are tons of things for which I can not find any answers from what I learned or heard: the tokugawa shogunate exploited people much; Japanese history progressed after Meiji; and the stability in the era was all evil...

The Edo era is like an self-flushing asian squat toilet without using paper for me. I could not understand how confortable it was and what a reasonable toilet it was till I actually use it.
I use the paper in Japan, though. :)

A German or British diplomat in the end of Edo, I forgot his name, said "If I were rich, I would live in London, but if I were a worker, I'd choose Edo". Maybe he was nothing but a diplomat.
Well, I'd choose not a lower-ranked samurai in the shogunate, but a farmer near the Edo then.