Your opinion on Japan

[Elizabeth]

This is just my attempt to give Baldir's past thread a more respectable start and life....I still think it began with a good question. :p So whether you live in Japan or not, try and come up with a crushing disappointment or dashed expectation from your experience with the country and list/discuss them here.


Mine would be mostly in the area of social relations -- with some of the people that aren't as flexible, understanding or forgiving as it seemed based on their intial impression of helpful and kind responsiveness.

Although it is obvious looking back that the pressure on my side has been too blunt at times as well....:blush: Only now, after several years, that the language burden has started to come down and we can find other points of common interest, have I started to feel more positive and relaxed. :relief:

Although the more I feel versed in all things Japanese, my interest in living there is becoming less and less.

How about for everyone else ? :wave:

[Buntaro]

Elizabeth,

I think you have yet to live in Japan, so I will go from that perspective.

Living in a foreign country always means meeting people from a totally different culture, people who think quite differently than we do.

But that is the value of the experience. Yes, then I lived in Japan, there were times that I got fed up with the whole thing, and longed to return to the USA. However, as I look back, the value of the experience GREATLY outweighed the negative experiences. And, I can honestly say the negative experiences were few and far between.

One of the values of living in a foreign country is seeing things from another (non-American) perspective. My experience of living in Japan gave me ways of looking at things that I would not have had elsewhere. As I look at my friends who have always lived only in American, I almost feel sorry for them

Japan is one of the best places for Americans to live overseas. Japanese people genuinely enjoy interacting with Americans. And, most Japanese people are just downright nice. I really miss the considerations of human relationships, considerations that just do not exist in the American culture.

If I could do it all over, I would jump at the chance. If you have the chance, go for it!

[Elizabeth]

Japan is one of the best places for Americans to live overseas. Japanese people genuinely enjoy interacting with Americans. And, most Japanese people are just downright nice. I really miss the considerations of human relationships, considerations that just do not exist in the American culture.
Thanks for sharing something about your experience, Buntaro. Yes, you're right, I've only spent around 5 months there -- on short-term study programs and with friends as a permanent guest/tourist -- not quite 'living' yet. :p I also know quite a few Japanese that value things like their appearance or money above human relations and that don't particularly appreciate associating with foreigners. Otherwise, all told, my experiences have also been very positive....perhaps it does just take a long-term commitment there to feel like you have a more solid understanding of the place.

[Maciamo]

The first shock or disappointment for me already came on my way from Narita Airport to Tokyo: the architecture. My image of Japan was that of a modern country, and I expected the buildings to be modern too. I suppose that quite a few Westerners would agree with me that Japanese cities are architecturally chaotic, and basically a patchwork of ugly concrete buildings decorated with "toilet tiles" or small hovels (I can hardly call them "houses"). If you have no idea what I am talking about, have a look at these pictures I took (and if you wonder where to find such buildings, just walk around anywhere outside the big commercial centres in any Japanese city) :

http://www.jref.com/gallery/data/512/thumbs/PICT0176.JPG

http://www.jref.com/gallery/data/512/thumbs/PICT0179.JPG

http://www.jref.com/gallery/data/512/thumbs/PICT0168.JPG

Half of the houses in some central neighbourhoods are like that, maybe more in the Eastern part of Tokyo though.

In the same line, one of the first things that shock the eye on arrival in Japan are the unburried electric lines everywhere about one's head (exception Ginza, Marunouchi and Otemachi).


Other things that I was disappointed in with time were mostly about the very conservative, old-fashioned or narrow-minded way Japanese people think. These include :

- very traditional mentality concerning social relations and conventions, or such things as marriage (father not recognised if not married, surrogate mothers not recognised, no legal status for couples cohabiting or engaged, etc.)

- discrimination (http://www.jref.com/society/discrimination_in_japan.shtml) or "special treatments" for foreigners.

- Japanese finding excuses for such behaviour saying that they are not used to foreigners. However, Japan's first wave of immigrants came from Korea during WWII and over half a million stayed until now. The first waves of immigration from the colonies to Britain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, etc. only came in the 1950's, but especially in the 60's, 70's and 80's, that is later than Japan, and yet the locals have adapted much better. In London, probably over half of the police officers, airport staff (including immigration) or bus drivers are from non-European descent (mostly Indian). However, I have never seen a foreign-looking police officer or immigration staff in Japan - not even one, and it will probably never happen in the next few decades.

- younger Japanese finding excuses or justifications for the war crimes of their parents or grandparents during WWII rather than condem them as "past mistakes" like anywhere else.

- a lot of "facade" politeness but few genuine feelings. For example, my wife was really surprised when she went to the supermarket in Europe and people with a loaded trolley who let her pass before them because she only had 1 or 2 items. This has never happened to her (or me) in Japan before, and she does go to the supermarket often (2 or 3x a week). Another example is that when we go back to my parents' home, there is always someone to greet us at the airport and "take us home". This is something I find natural, eventhough my parents' home is further away from the airport than central Tokyo is from Narita, and the public transports are as good. But my wife says that she didn't know any parents in Japan that would do that for their children. It's not really necessary - it's just the feelings that your family does care about you.

Likewise, in Japan, once children grow up and start working, they have to "repay" their parents for taking care of their upbringing. This way of thinking is completely outlandish to me, as parents decide to have children in the first place and should carry the responsibility without asking anything in return. It's not a business or an long-term investment. But in Japan, still nowadays, a great deal of marriages are still arranged (now often by the prospective bride and groom themselves), and managed like a business (the man work while the wife take care of the children, house and finances). Japanese are often cynical about the Western idea of "love marriages" because they know (or think they know) that love cannot last forever.

[cicatriz esp]

But in Japan, still nowadays, a great deal of marriages are still arranged (now often by the prospective bride and groom themselves), and managed like a business (the man work while the wife take care of the children, house and finances). Japanese are often cynical about the Western idea of "love marriages" because they know (or think they know) that love cannot last forever.

Based on my own experiences, I will echo this. We have heard from a respected female member here who is married to a Japanese man that the way for a man to show that he loves his wife is pretty much simply to provide money for her. That's all, nothing else. On the flip side of that coin, I have noticed that this is also true for Japanese women but in reverse: of paramount importance in a relationship (not even marriage) is that money be provided. If that's there, then any other perks are just a nice bonus. Marriage is a business.

The interesting thing is that these two pieces of the puzzle fit pretty well together when both people come from this culture, but when you throw a different culture into the mix, problems arise. What's also funny is that the girls that i've dated seemed to know to hold off for a while before they asked me my salary. At that point, i either mysteriously never heard from them again, or things got a lot more comfortable.

[Maciamo]

Based on my own experiences, I will echo this. We have heard from a respected female member here who is married to a Japanese man that the way for a man to show that he loves his wife is pretty much simply to provide money for her. That's all, nothing else. On the flip side of that coin, I have noticed that this is also true for Japanese women but in reverse: of paramount importance in a relationship (not even marriage) is that money be provided. If that's there, then any other perks are just a nice bonus. Marriage is a business.

I agree completely. In fact, there has been a few fights between my wife and me because of this mentality. For me, a relationship should only be based on feelings (love) and mutual attraction and compatibility. For me, any relation where a man gives a woman money or expensive present to keep her favours is prostitution.

She, however, often says that a good (Japanese) husband should pay for everything (rent, food, leisure, etc.) while the wife cooks and take care of the house. But although she now knows very well how I think, she still can't help herself to remind me of the Japanese way a bit too often. This sometimes make me doubt of her real feelings toward me, as if she loved and trusted me she wouldn't ask for complete financial support.

I think this mentality about the man paying for all the woman's expenses ("supporting her") is very deeply ingrained not only in the Japanese, but East Asian mentality. I heard of similar cases in China, Thailand or Indonesia. When I see such striking similarities between these countries, it dawns on me that East Asia might be more culturally uniform that even Western Europe. Funny that the Japanese should look down on other East Asians, as they are so similar in so many ways.

[Shibuyaexpat]

I think this mentality about the man paying for all the woman's expenses ("supporting her") is very deeply ingrained not only in the Japanese, but East Asian mentality. While I cannot comment on Western Europe, I have to say that this mentality (man pays/provides for everything) was (is?) not that uncommon in the States, as well. It's just that it's not so overtly pronounced as it is here.

Part of me thinks that it's weird to have women state outright that a man should provide for everything, but then, at the same time, I could see how such a system ensures--for lack of a better term--that women allow for (and maybe even support) a patriarchal system. I hardly think that Asian women are "deemed" to act subservient because they're more submissive than their Western counterparts. Rather, by acting this way, they are ensured to have certain financial responsibilities/expectations taken away from them. Think of it as "bowing tax"--the lower they bow, the more men have to pay :P

[Maciamo]

While I cannot comment on Western Europe, I have to say that this mentality (man pays/provides for everything) was (is?) not that uncommon in the States, as well. It's just that it's not so overtly pronounced as it is here.

There are big cultural differences at this level between European countries. German people are probably closer to the Japanese in this regard. However, I was brought up with the idea that a woman who accompany, sleep with or live with a man for financial gains/benefits is a prostitute or courtesan (depending on their status). I think this comes from the French (or Latin ?) mentality, but I am pretty sure that in Dutch and Scandinavian people see it similarily, given the high equality that women enjoy with men in these countries.

I hardly think that Asian women are "deemed" to act subservient because they're more submissive than their Western counterparts. Rather, by acting this way, they are ensured to have certain financial responsibilities/expectations taken away from them.

Yes, that's also how I see it. In fact, we could say that Japanese women have the better role, as they are allowed not to work, and have plenty of free time and money to spend if they don't have children and the husband makes enough money. Basically, Japanese men want status and want to be satisfied sexually and cunilarily, while women have the real power to make financial decisions, use the money and enjoy themselves. The most incredible is that they managed to have Japanese men believe that the men have the good role, eventhough they are working like slaves, have few days off, usually don't have time to spent the money they earn, and even if they do they can't without their wife's consent ! I would never accept such a system. I have imposed the principles of gender equality at home, so that if she wants to buy something she'll have to work for it (same for me, but I don't spend a tenth of my wife's monthly expenses). I just pay for the food because she does the cooking and I eat 3/4 of it. :sorry:

[Shibuyaexpat]

The most incredible is that they managed to have Japanese men believe that the men have the good role, eventhough they are working like slaves, have few days off, usually don't have time to spent the money they earn, and even if they do they can't without their wife's consent !For this the sex had better be AWESOME! and the food KICK A$$!!! :p Seriously, though, on the flip side, I hear a lot (sometimes too much) about what my female friends have to "endure" in their marriage. I don't care who's paying the bills, but anyone who belittles his/her partner for things like:
- body size/weight
- intelligence
- characteristic uniqueness (e.g., the way one laughs or walks)
- etc.
deserves what's coming to them. I'm not saying that all Japanese men are this way (and in fact, most of friends are not), but nonetheless there are some bad apples in the bunch.

[Maciamo]

One of the values of living in a foreign country is seeing things from another (non-American) perspective. My experience of living in Japan gave me ways of looking at things that I would not have had elsewhere. As I look at my friends who have always lived only in American, I almost feel sorry for them

That's a good point. In my case, I had lived in 5 countries and travelled in maybe 30 more before coming to Japan, so there wasn't this kind of sudden culture shock linked to living for the first time abroad or having to learn a new language from scratches in real life situations. The culture shock only came after a few months and accentuated progressively the longer I stayed there and learned about the way people really thought in private (honne, and not tatemae).


Japan is one of the best places for Americans to live overseas. Japanese people genuinely enjoy interacting with Americans. And, most Japanese people are just downright nice. I really miss the considerations of human relationships, considerations that just do not exist in the American culture.

But have you lived anywhere else abroad ? I also don't think that you can claim that "Japanese people genuinely enjoy interacting with Americans". Many elderly people still hate Americans for the war. Many younger people have a very bad opinion of Americans because of the crimes commited by US troops stationed in Japan, or just the stereotypes of the USA as an violent, selfish and rude society.

Usually foreigners in Japan have a good impressions of the Japanese at first (as I did) because they only meet people who are interested in meeting foreigners. But once you have to interact with other people, you'll realise that not all, or not even the majority of the Japanese have a positive opinion of foreigners, even Americans or Europeans.

I realised it faster than the average Westerners because I live in a very traditional part of Tokyo (with many elderly people - "baba village" as my wife calls it), I had to interact on a daily basis with my grandmother-in-law in the first few months, I had the opportunity to meet my wife's very numerous friends, talk to them and see that not all are as foreigner-friendly as the people who go toward you in places like Shibuya, Roppongi or Ginza. But it still took me two to three years to understand the deeply rooted prejudices that the average Japanese (not the one seeking foreigners in Shibuya or abroad) have toward foreigners, and how hypocritical they can be when talking to foreigners.

I have to admit that my image of Japan was much better before I went there than after I got there, and that it has deteriorated with time. I already knew all the praiseworthy aspects of Japan (food, electronics, bullet trains, kombini, anime, video games, kimono, Buddhism, temples, martial arts, samurai...) apart from J-pop, festivals and some kinds of food. I expected to find more, but was disappointed regarding the general beauty (not just architecture, but also the nature, taxis, etc.), and especially the people.

Last year I was still writing on this forum that one of the good points of living in Japan were the people, because of how polite and respectful people are. Once I got fed up of being assaulted by "irasshaimase" and "domo arigato gozaimashita", it all became superficial and I was left with a bunch of people who most generally think all Westerners are Americans, that they can't use chopsticks or eat umeboshi, are stangely obsessed about the seasons, or don't mind telling you in the face that they think foreigners are bad for Japan because they increase crime rates (half of the Japanese with whom I discussed about "foreigners living in Japan" answered me this, not minding that I was a foreigner myself). Japan may be very nice when you don't know about these things, but once you know the following you will feel differently :

- Policemen get points (for promotion) by arresting bicycle thieves and their prime targets are foreign-looking people (which probably exludes the 450,000 Chinese in Japan). I got that info from an insider.
- Many big real estate agencies have company rules that prohibit them to rent apartments to foreigners (hence the booming market for overpriced apartments specially for foreigners).
- Many Japanese banks refuse to issue a credit cards to most foreigners with a proper job and visa without providing an explanation. Try to apply via an airlines, department stores or fitness clubs, as they rarely make any problem.
- The Japanese media put an undue emphasis on "foreign crimes", usually dismissing the culprits as "foreigners" rather than specifying the nationality (generally from developing countries).
- You won't see an Indian, Black, Caucasian or other foreign-looking person working for the Japanese government, including police, immigration or public transports, although it is very common in a country with no history of immigration before WWII like the UK.

[Tsuyoiko]

- You won't see an Indian, Black, Caucasian or other foreign-looking person working for the Japanese government, including police, immigration or public transports, although it is very common in a country with no history of immigration before WWII like the UK.

Sorry this is not directly related to the topic, but I just wanted to point out that the UK has a very long history of immigration before WWII.
Look here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/short_history_of_immigration.stm)

[deadhippo]

i think this thread almost had a good premise
why did it have to be a bout disppointments when the title said opinion

well, anyway...maybe my biggest disppointment was that nashi were expensive
i had become all but addicted to nashi while living in oz and i was looking forward to munching on them daily...but alas

other disppointments..i have to say that japanese people were in general kinder, and less racist than i had imagined
before you say im wearing rose colored glasse i dont think japan is a perfect country
or near it
actually dont think there is a country in the real world that even comes close to perfection
i have suffered discrimination here...im a bi boy though..i can bear it
the summers were a little more humid than i had expected too
like maciamo said the architecture was disppointing at first but i dont look at in the same way any more

on the other hand i come from a country with very conservative diet so i was delighte by my ability to adapt to japanese food
i thought it wouldnt be easy to get a job...it was
i thought id have to live in a tiny apartment....i didnt
i have to say the pleasant surprises outweigh any of my disappointments

i just wanted to comment about this bicycle issue as it is often brought up in the forums
i live in yokohama and so do most of my friends, japanese and non-japanese
i dont have a bicycle but all but one of my friends do
none of the non-japanese have been stopped as of yet
but my japanese friends and the other japanese people said that they hd been stopped several times
i know...japanese people have been living here all their lives so the chances are higher
but i have been here for 4 years now and that is the shortest of all of my friends bar 2

---------------------------------------------------------------

He pauses, and then adds: “The biggest problem is not a specific crime. It’s just that people don’t seem to be concerned about each other. They’re not looking out for other people. They don’t speak up when they see a crime or when they see something bad going on. Even if they see someone in trouble―even if that person asks for help―they ignore them. People should help each other.”

Sounds like something a foreigner would say. this is a quote from a Japanese guardian angel

[deadhippo]

Sorry this is not directly related to the topic, but I just wanted to point out that the UK has a very long history of immigration before WWII.
Look here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/short_history_of_immigration.stm)

ill back this up because more than 1 million irish people moved there in the late 1800's early 1900's

[Maciamo]

Sorry this is not directly related to the topic, but I just wanted to point out that the UK has a very long history of immigration before WWII.
Look here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/short_history_of_immigration.stm)

Thanks for the link. :cool: I won't count the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Normands, etc, as immigrants, but invadors, like the Yayoi people in Japan, who came from Korea.

The number of Black entertainers and slaves in the 16th and 17th century were negligible (maybe just a few hundreds of them), and were brought by force, not as voluntary immigrants. Even once slave trade developed with Africa and the Americas, the number of slaves in England remained negligible compared to the total population (14,000 black people in 1770). Again, these were not "immigrants", but slaves. After slavery was banned in 1807, their number dropped.

I won't count the Irish immigrants from the 1830's to 1850's because this was internal migration (Ireland became part of the UK in 1801, but was in fact governed by the same monarchy since Henry II in the 12th century, amd 1/3 of the Irish are still British citizens now with Northern Ireland).

So apart from a few French Huguenots, the Jews confined to the East End of London, a few Indian servants and merchants from the 19th century and a few Africans, all of whom never accounting for even 0.1% of the population, I don't see how you can say that the average British people were much more used to immigrants than the Japanese.

There were hundreds of thousands of soldiers from the colonies who came to Britain to defend the country in WWI, but 1) these were not immigrants, 2) they actually fought in France and Belgium, 3) most went back where they came from after the war.

What is interesting is that even in the late 19th century, Britain was open-minded enough to allow a famous Indian politician (Dadabhai Naoroji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadabhai_Naoroji) to become MP in 1892. Of course he was not just anybody. Apart from being professor of Gujarati at University College London, he later became President of the Indian National Congress and was also a mentor to Mahatma Gandhi. Such rare cases of foreigners adapting well also exist in Japan; for instance Lafcadio Hearn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafcadio_Hearn) who gained the Japanese citizenship at about the same time. There were also hundreds of Westerners "invited" to Japan during the Meiji period (1867-1912) for their knowledge of sciences, politics or foreign languages.

Therefore we could say that there has always been a tiny minority of foreigners (mostly merchants and diplomats) living in almost any country at any time in history. Even during the notorious period of seclusion of Japan, Dutch, Chinese and Korean traders were allowed to live in Japan.

Real mass immigration (especially economic migration) came mostly after WWII both in Europe and Japan, as opposed to the USA and Canada where immigrants (not merchants or visitors) arrived in large number, of their own will and with the purpose of staying there mostly from 17th century. This is why I am saying that Japan and Europe are not so different regarding their immigration history, and some non-colonial European countries had even less experience of immigration than Japan until the late 20th century (in fact many Eastern European countries still have virtually no non-Caucasian population).

ill back this up because more than 1 million irish people moved there in the late 1800's early 1900's

The question is, would you consider Okinawan moving to Tokyo as immigration ? That's internal migration, even if Okinawa used to be a separate country historically. Same for Ireland between 1800 and 1900.

[Maciamo]

the summers were a little more humid than i had expected too

Oh yes, that was an abomination (especially that I first came to Japan in August !). However I somewhat got used to it now.

i thought it wouldnt be easy to get a job...it was

It's easy to find a teaching/translation job, or IT if you speak very well Japanese (JLPT1). Otherwise, it's not easier than in most Western countries, maybe even less than in the US.


i thought id have to live in a tiny apartment....i didnt

Well it depends. If you were used to living in 600 sq.m., it can come as a shock to have only 60 sq.m. Personally I don't mind as a too big house means more cleaning and many rooms scarcely used.

none of the non-japanese have been stopped as of yet
but my japanese friends and the other japanese people said that they hd been stopped several times

I guess it depends a lot on how often one rides a bike, and in whcih area. I use my bicycle everyday, sometimes 10x a day as I am going here and there then come back. Most of the Japanese I know who often ride a bike were never or very rarely stopped. None of them were stopped during day time in a busy district or by a police car (not just a pedestrian policeman with their red stick) like me. Ask your friends if they were.

[Elizabeth]

The interesting thing is that these two pieces of the puzzle fit pretty well together when both people come from this culture, but when you throw a different culture into the mix, problems arise. What's also funny is that the girls that i've dated seemed to know to hold off for a while before they asked me my salary. At that point, i either mysteriously never heard from them again, or things got a lot more comfortable.
I'm not sure how well it works in practice even intraculturally. A lot of Japanese men are easily tempted into affairs with foreign women for instance who show sincere interest in them with honest feelings and a compliant tone (even those who manage their own finances). It's just that the number who actually forego all the benefits of a Japanese marriage and leave their wives for a more satisfying relationship is very small.

[deadhippo]

The question is, would you consider Okinawan moving to Tokyo as immigration ? That's internal migration, even if Okinawa used to be a separate country historically. Same for Ireland between 1800 and 1900.

well this is a tough question, and i cant say how the okinawans feel but if they feel the same way as the irish i would have to say yes, i see it as immigration
from the irish point of view we were never part of the british empire...only temporarily controlled by their government
many people of northern ireland even today say the same thing...they are irish
under british rule...and they are fighting to overthrow that
i dont know if you can understand this concept or not

ireland may have been part of the uk according to the british rulers but that doesnt really mean it was