Desu and iru n desu

[E-Arkham]

Helloa,

First post, first question. :)

I'm having troubles understanding when to use いるんです instead of です. In one of the NHK lessons, they note that it expresses "great interest" but don't really go into more detail. I suspect it was covered in an earlier lesson that I missed.

Can someone explain please?

説明するください。

Kep

[nice gaijin]

firstly, when asking someone to perform an action, you must use the 〜て form with ください。 please explain would be 説明してください。

the use of 〜んです and なんです。 is like a subtle way of saying "this is part of the explanation, or this is more information." it's not very easily described. it can also be used in a question, when you are asking for more information.

Here's an example:
A:　何で遅かったんですか？why were you late?
B:　朝寝坊してしまったんです。 I overslept.

technically the 〜んです doesn't change the translation of the phrases, but it changes the implications. Practicing conversation will help you get used to this form, like I said it's difficult to explain.

edit//I think when the NHK lesson said "great interest" it was referring to someone asking a question using that form; to me it implies that the person asking the question is interested in hearing an explanation.

[E-Arkham]

firstly, when asking someone to perform an action, you must use the 〜て form with ください。 please explain would be 説明してください。

Ah hah. I expect I will make many such mistakes since I haven't been seriously learning for very long. In fact, I'll be focusing on verb conjugation this week, so if you or anyone have some good references (specifically for -て, volitional, passive, and conditional usage), I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks for the correction. :)

ぼくがたくさんの失敗する。

the use of 〜んです and なんです。 is like a subtle way of saying "this is part of the explanation, or this is more information." it's not very easily described. it can also be used in a question, when you are asking for more information.

...

edit//I think when the NHK lesson said "great interest" it was referring to someone asking a question using that form; to me it implies that the person asking the question is interested in hearing an explanation.

When used in question form, would this be as if opposed to asking a rhetorical question? Or rather... clarifying that the question is not rhetorical? Hm, for that matter, how does one denote a rhetorical question in the first place?

Kep

[nice gaijin]

The closest thing I can come to making a question rhetorical is to use でしょう? or でしょうか to end the sentence, which translates to "probably." I use it a lot when I'm speaking and I'm not really looking for an answer. I'd concentrate on the basics before you learn the subtleties.

the Genki books are good resources for learning the grammar structures and conjugations. Pretty much anything put out by the Japan Times Press is good learning material. If you have any questions feel free to post them here.

[sasame]

Helloa,
I'm having troubles understanding when to use いるんです instead of です.
Hello, E-Arkham.

"いるんです" and "いるのです" are the same meanings.
　「いるんです」と「いるのです」は、同じ意味です。

"〜んです" is a casual expression of "〜のです".
　「〜んです」は、「〜のです」のカジュアルな言い方 です。

Q「彼は朝食を食べないの？（Doesn't he eat breakfast?）」
A「彼はまだ寝ているのです（He is still sleeping.）」
　＝casual expression「彼はまだ寝ているんです（He is still sleeping.）」


ex)「彼はまだ寝ている」＋「です」

×彼はまだ寝ているです。 ※１
○彼はまだ寝ているのです。
○彼はまだ寝ているんです。


"です" is a polite word of "だ".
　「です」は「だ」の丁寧語です。

ex)「彼はまだ寝ている」＋「だ」
×彼はまだ寝ているだ。 ※２
○彼はまだ寝ているのだ。
○彼はまだ寝ているんだ。


※１、※２）
Country bumpkin that appears in the novel etc. uses it.
　小説などに登場する田舎者が、このような話し方をす ることはあります。

[Elizabeth]

The closest thing I can come to making a question rhetorical is to use でしょう? or でしょうか to end the sentence, which translates to "probably." I use it a lot when I'm speaking and I'm not really looking for an answer. I'd concentrate on the basics before you learn the subtleties.

the Genki books are good resources for learning the grammar structures and conjugations. Pretty much anything put out by the Japan Times Press is good learning material. If you have any questions feel free to post them here.
I don't think "でしょう" necessarily translates as rhetorical at all, just the opposite in fact, as a statement of uncertainty it often calls
for a response. I usually reserve it for polite situations or when I'm looking for confirmation. And when talking about the future, でしょう projects the likelihood that something will occur or take place.

As for "irun," depends on the context, intonation and speaker. A lot of times as a non-question it is for emotive emphasis as well as explanation (a stronger form would be simply "no"? used mostly by women and children.

There are tons of past threads on this, though, for a more in-depth analysis.... :-)

[Elizabeth]

ところで、「~ったです」、「~くです」など、動詞の後 ろに「です」をつけることはしませんね。
でも、「ない」は形容詞（それとも副詞？）なので「で す」をつけても大丈夫です。

日本語の文法の中で、”である”とか”ではありません ”、”です”という文構造を把握するのは
一番難しいことの一つですよね。。 :bluush: 　　

[nice gaijin]

ところで、「~ったです」、「~くです」など、動詞の後 ろに「です」をつけることはしませんね。
でも、「ない」は形容詞（それとも副詞？）なので「で す」をつけても大丈夫です。

日本語の文法の中で、”である”とか”ではありません ”、”です”という文構造を把握するのは
一番難しいことの一つですよね。。 :bluush: 　　
そんな間違えをしましたか?

From my understanding, a rhetorical question is an indirect way of making a statement, that emphasizes the point, using (usually) a yes-or-no question. For instance, "do I pay you to think?" is a pointed statement veiled in question form.

my use of deshou was more along the lines of turning a statement into question form, but isn't exactly rhetorics per se. I thought that perhaps you could make a statement into a rhetorical question, by making it a yes or no question, but i suppose it is more like you are looking for agreement instead of making an indirect statement. (I'm suddenly flashing back to those politics shows where the talking heads kept ending their sentences with "desu ne.")

誰がそんなことを言う人がいますか。 or 誰がそんなことを言う人がいるだろうか。 are stacked rhetorical questions, where the answer expresses the intended statement in the questions, and is therefore unnecessary. The difference between the two is that the first is more of a question directed at others, while the second sentence is more directed at oneself.

you could also say 誰がそんなことを言う人がいるんだ。 which is almost the same as saying "there is no one who would say such a thing" which translates to 誰もそんなことを言う人がいない。 but it is less direct than flat-out saying it.

I guess what I'm saying is rhetorical questions, like sarcasm, are pretty difficult to employ in Japanese.

[Elizabeth]

誰がそんなことを言う人がいますか。 or 誰がそんなことを言う人がいるだろうか。 are stacked rhetorical questions, where the answer expresses the intended statement in the questions, and is therefore unnecessary. The difference between the two is that the first is more of a question directed at others, while the second sentence is more directed at oneself.

you could also say 誰がそんなことを言う人がいるんだ。 which is almost the same as saying "there is no one who would say such a thing" which translates to 誰もそんなことを言う人がいない。 but it is less direct than flat-out saying it.

I guess what I'm saying is rhetorical questions, like sarcasm, are pretty difficult to employ in Japanese.
I agree that だろう　can have the implication of empty wondering,
seeking an answer or genuinely not knowing depending on the situation and delivery, etc. although I don't think it necessarily marks something as rhetorical. Most of the rhetorical questions I've seen use a plain ですか？
and are only understandable in context, not grammatically marked just like they're not in English.

誰にわかるだろう、誰にもわからない” or "さあどうかな” for instance all have the core sense of "Who knows" but just as in English, there is the more optimistic, rising tone (maybe someone does...), a level or falling one (more doubtful and pessimistic) or just something like "さあどうかな”.... I wonder....but it's impossible to say right now.

[nice gaijin]

good point, the context really determines the content. Great topic for discussion though, I had never really considered rhetorics in Japanese before. I have thought about sarcasm a lot, considering my English humor is strongly based on it. Delivery also strongly affects the implied meaning in both cases.

[Elizabeth]

誰がそんなことを言う人がいますか。 or 誰がそんなことを言う人がいるだろうか。 are stacked rhetorical questions, where the answer expresses the intended statement in the questions, and is therefore unnecessary. The difference between the two is that the first is more of a question directed at others, while the second sentence is more directed at oneself.
I think the main difference is that だろう、でしょう emphasizes an opinion or assertion, which could be taken as wanting to start a debate, :relief: in contrast to the neutral and usual straightforward 「誰もそんなことを言う人がいないね」。 In the same way I suppose that in English "There may be someone that would speak like that...." comes off more challenging and sarcastic than "No one would say such a thing, would they?"

[claytonian]

just tonight I heard a Nihonjin use でしょう in what seemed to be a retorical fashion. She wasn't really looking for an answer, in fact she was making a statement. But I agree that context probably plays a role.