Oda Nobunaga... evil? Why?

[JapanLover]

Hi all,

maybe I am wrong (surely I am.. ^__^) but it seems to me that in Japan most of the ppl consider Oda Nobunaga an evil figure. I think so because reading various textbooks I always found infos about his way of rule Japan during his "reign" considered to be "evil", harsh, etc.
I do wonder how japanese people consider this man, because to me (and based on the textbooks I read) maybe he was really rude but without him Japan would have been unificated maybe hundred of years later.

Is there anyone who can help me out finding how Japanese think about Oda Nobunaga?

Thank you all.

[Oyakata]

Hi all,

maybe I am wrong (surely I am.. ^__^) but it seems to me that in Japan most of the ppl consider Oda Nobunaga an evil figure. I think so because reading various textbooks I always found infos about his way of rule Japan during his "reign" considered to be "evil", harsh, etc.

My experience has been quite different. I have found that value judgements (such as 'evil' or 'good') tend to come from western sources; Japanese sources tend to be much more neutral. That is, they tend to admit to the important role Nobunaga played in the history of Japan while not covering up his excesses.

I do wonder how japanese people consider this man, because to me (and based on the textbooks I read) maybe he was really rude but without him Japan would have been unificated maybe hundred of years later.

It is certainly true that Nobunaga was instrumental in starting the process of unification. As with all historical figures it's quite a fun exercise to wonder 'if this person wasn't there, would/could someone else have done it'. Myself I am of the opinion that it was Nobunaga himself who had the personality and the ability to start the unification process.Is there anyone who can help me out finding how Japanese think about Oda Nobunaga?

Probably I'm not in a position to say.

Regards,
Oyakata
www.OdaNobunaga.com

[Mizuiro]

I have thought of this a lot, too, and I have also asked around. Most people have a detached sense of figures in history. When one thinks of the colonists brutally wiping out the Native Americans, they aren't horrified and developed this thought that the colonists were evil. I have found that most people admire Nobunaga for his military skill and that his supposed "tough" personality is very popular.

[Oyakata]

I have found that most people admire Nobunaga for his military skill and that his supposed "tough" personality is very popular.

For me personally my fascination is based on a couple of things:

First, that he was able to move so far along the process of unification, from humble beginnings as a minor lordling in a minor province. He obviously had 'something' that noone else - even the more major players/families such as Imagawa, Takeda, Asakura, Rokkaku, etc. didn't have. So I've always been interested to understand what that 'something' is. It's not so much about his personality or even his methods, it's more about his characteristics or traits that is interesting to me.

Also, his inability to close off the deal and finish what he started is somehow fascinating to me. What was it about him that led him to slip up and lose the plot at the end? Why was it Mitsuhide who betrayed him? The sudden mad dash for power after his death, leading up to Sekigahara and the aftermath of that, are the more 'popular' subjects; but for me I've always been interested in the first chapter of the story -- Nobunaga.

Oyakata
www.OdaNobunaga.com

[pipokun]

Nobunaga-Hideyoshi-Ieyasu story still facinates a lot of Japanese. Also, Japanese love a Chinese novel, Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Both show us clear-cut and different personalities and give us a lot of "what if-then" imagination.

Though I'm currently more into the Edo culture, esp., food or life of ordinary people then, but I'd like to pick up Nobunaga as my favorite character among the three.

What if he'd established his absolute monarcy after abolishing the Tenno system?

[nurizeko]

He was a man of his time, and he was a great leader.

Modern morality is fairly new, we've always had honour and thou shalt not kill and what-not, but, as a man of his time, in a country torn apart, he sort to unify the country, and he pretty well did, the harshness of his rule isnt really too much of an issue since, he couldnt exactly create multi-party all inclusive democracy, the idea didnt exist, the world wouldnt allow it, especially his part of it, it would of collapsed to corruption and forces seeing it as an easy soft touch.

So yeah, IMO he was a great man, a historical figure that earned his respect and name in history, since, nobody expects us to ask if Lord nelson of britian was evil, or if alexander the great and hannibal and julius gius cesear was evil, what is un-questionable though is that they were men of their times and they were great, earning their fame.

[duff_o_josh]

Nobunaga-Hideyoshi-Ieyasu story still facinates a lot of Japanese. Also, Japanese love a Chinese novel, Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Both show us clear-cut and different personalities and give us a lot of "what if-then" imagination.

Though I'm currently more into the Edo culture, esp., food or life of ordinary people then, but I'd like to pick up Nobunaga as my favorite character among the three.

What if he'd established his absolute monarcy after abolishing the Tenno system?


im reading the historical fiction book on the three right now called taiko by eiji yoshikawa. its absolutely amazing. after the first book this novel has become my favourite. nobunaga is incredible.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

If I am in the Nobunaga Oda era, I do not want to never approach him.

He is a dangerous person, even if it becomes an enemy and becomes an ally.
Nagashima -- Ikko-ikki, about 20,000 believers who surrendered are completely slaughtered
It has banished, when a longtime vassal is not helpful, either.
(林秀貞　HAYASHI HIDESADA)

Nobunaga Oda's policy and a battle are rational and it is easy to understand them in the present.
However, I think that a person of the time may not understand it


Ikko-ikki resembles Islamic terrorism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikko-ikki

[pipokun]

eiji yoshikawa rocks!
the chinese novel said above and I read again and again is his translation.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Manga about Nobunaga Oda
This is interesting :-)
http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/4840104980.09.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[nurizeko]

Manga, the literature of history where everyone can learn an honest realistic perspective of someone. :P

[Oyakata]

Though I'm currently more into the Edo culture, esp., food or life of ordinary people then, but I'd like to pick up Nobunaga as my favorite character among the three.

I am also quite interested in the 'ordinary people' aspect of history. It's too bad that it is very difficult to find good information on normal life in sengoku jidai. Do you have any suggestions for good books or reference materials?

What if he'd established his absolute monarcy after abolishing the Tenno system?

I am not sure that Nobunaga would have or could have done this. He was very careful to maintain the shogun system for as long as he could; I think he would have taken a very long time to abolish the emperor system. He probably would have taken on some role, such as Taiko 太閤 or some such.

It's interesting to see the way he dealt with institutions. Sometimes he decided to destroy something, and sometimes he decided to build something up (or protect something). Fascinating to try and understand each of his choices.

Oyakata

[Sukotto]

nobody expects us to ask if Lord nelson of britian was evil, or if alexander the great and hannibal and julius gius cesear was evil,
.....they were great, earning their fame.


I object. Maybe "evil" isn't the word necessarily used. Maybe bastard,
monster, or dictator.
Alexander the great has come up in debate between a friend and I.
He wasn't necessarily defending Alexander, but I was saying
that "the great" part did not mean he was great, like a great person.
Great in maybe a "big man" (nowadays we just roll our eyes at such
junior high school-nonsense. well..., some people still don't)
or greatly known and feared for the consequences of not being
on his side.
But "great" as in good or honorable or being any sort of role model what
so ever? no
Maybe he solved the riddle of untying the untiable knot
and was some what clever in doing so. But even today we
scoff at people when they make light of real people's lives.
"No, no." replied my friend. "AtG was a great warrior".
"Wars do not make one great" ~yoda
"A great stategist"-friend.
"You mean a 'war' stategist." See yoda quote.


My first exposure to Oda Nobunaga was via a Nintendo game
titled "Nobunaga's Ambition". It was sometimes fun.
Historic figures usually are some what interesting.
The personalities of "soap operas" that wind up getting a lot
of people killed.



Japanese sources tend to be much more neutral. That is, they tend to admit to the important role Nobunaga played in the history of Japan while not covering up his excesses.

This makes sense to me.
Past killings are done. Of course most alive today would agree
killing is bad and so we generally try to prevent them in all their forms.

Why was it important that the peoples of Nobunaga's time be united
under one political entity on the land that would one day make
up much of present day Japan?
Or the historic peoples of any current day country for that matter.

If present day Japan was something like 10 different countries would
Nobunaga have been forgotten or be considered a monster who tried
to take over all Honshu, Kyushu, etc...? Kind of like Hitler is
considered a monster for trying to take over all of Europe.

[lexico]

must have gotten many people killed for sure as many kings-turned-war-strategists tend to do, so that might be considered ungreat actually.
To highlight the positive contributions of AtG...

1. Spreading of the teachings of Greek thinkers such as Socrates-Plato-Aristotle in populations of eastern Europe, west-to-south Asia, and north Africa

2. Cultural imperialism created interesting forms of subcultures in the indigenous cultures; sometimes syncreictist eg. Ghandara sculpture, Hasmonean architecture, sometimes nationalist eg. Maccabean Judaism.

3. Athenian tolerance promotes openness to racial differences

Of course, most of these views are are positive only in retrospect, and it could also be argued negatively.

Your hypothetical question of "what if Japan were 10 independent states today ?" is intriguing indeed. Drawing from AtG's example, it could be said ON's role would have received harsher criticism although the more lasting impressions that he left on culture and social values might have still received positive reviews.

[pipokun]

...
I am not sure that Nobunaga would have or could have done this. He was very careful to maintain the shogun system for as long as he could; I think he would have taken a very long time to abolish the emperor system. He probably would have taken on some role, such as Taiko 太閤 or some such.
It's interesting to see the way he dealt with institutions. Sometimes he decided to destroy something, and sometimes he decided to build something up (or protect something). Fascinating to try and understand each of his choices.
Oyakata
Agreed. Nobunaga must be one of the cruelest rulers in history like razing the Enryakuji Temple or killing the top-ranked Buddhism monks then, but he did not intend to ban the religious activities.

Ikki, an uprising or resistance of peasants against rulers, but it is not necessarily true, for many uprisings were well-organized politically, economically or militarily. Some communities ruled their areas for 100yrs as Hiroyuki Nagashima said above. Through the Sengoku period, Japanese farmers and peasants started to form their strong Mura, or village, community. And I suppose the community enabled the Edo period to flourish economically or culturally.

It must be a joke, but for some Kyoto people, their last war was not the WWII, but the Onin war in the Sengoku period. :)