The State of the JREF political forums (rant)

[noyhauser]

As some people may know I'm not above ranting once in awhile. It usually doesn't do very much, and it probably ticks a few people off, but It gives me a modicum of peace of mind... so here goes.

I joined JREF somewhere abouts two years ago... I can't really remember how I joined in the first place (probably had something to do with me trying to keep touch with my Japanese roots) but I do know that it immediately made a big impression on me. I kinda enjoyed engaging in discussions, some serious, mostly not. I remeber when the photo thread was created, and over time I've developed some good friendships on here. The crazy old guy kinda grew on me, I guess.

However I think where I've spent most of my time is in the political forums. Its not suprising, since I work in International relations, and I enjoy discussing my field. I'd almost say its my biggest passion in my life. Way back when I really enjoyed the discussions I had. I mean I was bothered that that the form slanted a bit to the liberal left (I'm not a conservative by any means though) but people were openminded and it was really an excellent place to discuss issues in Japanese and world politics. I enjoyed it.

For a number of different reasons I left the board. Part of it was I got in an argument and I said something that I regret saying, but also I became really busy with my work, when the forum went down for an extended period of time I just stopped posting. This month a friend online emailed me and asked me to start posting... and I now see why.

The forum that I once enjoyed so thoughoughly has been transformed into some unrecognizable form, because of the controversy about War crimes and guilt from the Second World War. Real discussion has been minimized and taken over by jingoism and rhetoric, which is unfortunate... because before this forum was filled with intelligent discussion. It seems that any good discussion on Japan gets corrupted after a few pages by people who just can't help themselves by posting something bad about Japan.

I'd like to say this to the people who can't seem to help but spam the boards with this topic. This isn;t a board to mobilize support, and essentially spamming topics isn't going to change anybody's mind I assure you... If anything continunally pushing people about Japan's wartime guilt actually accompishes the exact opposite of what you think it will; it hardens people's positions as a counter and you just promote radicalism in response to your radicalism. I consider people who insessently spam about Japan's guilt to be one step above troll status, even if you are intelligent about it.

At this point I've already spoken to five people that have quit posting in the News and current affairs because of the people who insessently post on how japan is terrible ect. I suspect some of the people I used to have discussions with have left as well because of some of you people. To the People who think they are in the complete moral right about japan's guilt and are convinced you are right because nobody wants to post about it anymore, don't fool yourself. People just don't want to post anymore because they see that discussion with you is pointless, not because you are right, but because you aren't here for discussion. You're really here to hear your own voice, and nobody elses.

I'm not against free speech or for censorship. However what people are doing today on this board is ruining it. There are so many things I could talk about, but I'm unlikely to do so because of some of your actions on this board. I could post on recent developments with oil pipelines between china and Japan over russian oil, but I'm unlikely to do so. Its your people's loss more than anything else. I'm sure other people have had good topics to talk about as well, but won't because of how this board has deteriorated.

I think its time some people take a good hard look about why they post here. If your main reason for being here is to bash Japan, and sorta contribute on other aspects of the board, are you really sure your time is being well spent?

Notice has been served. And if you think giving me negative reputation will have any affect on me, think again. Enough people have come to me to complain about this, people that I think JREF values and have been here for quite some time, not worthless trolls that have no better purpose in life but to whine. IF you want to give me negative reputation do so, I have a good laugh at it... I especially enjoy the ones that have comments... because I find it so ironic when you try to justify it.

Have a pleasant day.

[Dutch Baka]

nice post, i get so annoyed about the same bloody thing from the second world war, it like everyday there are people posting about it...

i am on jref now around 6-7 months or something, i am enjoying it, but i hear from a lot of people it was better before...

i wish i could discuses things good, but sometimes i am not confident enough of my english, or my knowlegde, but yeah, maybe in the future i will discuse in some good threads!

[noyhauser]

DOn't worry about it my friend, I think most people understand that this is a multiligual board, and for many people this is not their first language. Intelligence shows through no matter your language. I know a lot of smart people on here who are terrible at eigo, and a lot of very closed minded people who can speak very well.

I think the board was better before. But I think not only have a lot of people left, but when new people come to see the board they see this all this ridiculous behavior for a lack of a better word, and then don't bother posting. I'd like to see that change and close this chapter in JREF's history.

[Dutch Baka]

well lets give it a try, to post better messages instead of posting as much as possible... and discuse some nice threads, and forget about this stupid threads

[noyhauser]

Personally, it takes me a bit of time to put together good posts. For example I'd like to respond to this thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16465), but I really don't have enough time to. I probably will sometime in the future.

[Mike Cash]

It seems that any good discussion on Japan gets corrupted after a few pages by people who just can't help themselves by posting something bad about Japan.

Don't you just hate it when someone ruins a good discussion by posting a dissenting opinion? This must be stopped immediately.

[noyhauser]

Haha... yeah, EVERYBODY LISTEN TO ME.

All kidding aside, I'm not asking for a love in, and neither am I asking for no criticism. Actually I thrive on good discussion. But when someone posts something that has little to do with the discussion at hand just to prove their point about some completely unrelated issue, that is the problem. And it seems to happen more and more these days.

[Mike Cash]

Welcome to the internet.

[noyhauser]

I'm a bit of a internet veteran myself, and on websites that are far more vile and condecending than JREF will ever be.

But JREF WAS different, this didn't happen in the past. Thats why I liked posting here. And really I don't think it should happen here regardless... most of the topics are repeditive and often bear little semblance to the forum they are in. Thats my point.

[Elizabeth]

The Japanese language section was also better smaller, with a much higher ratio of native/near native speakers to kids wanting their homework done or help with anime problems, the same can probably be said of just about every fora and subfora we offer here.

[noyhauser]

Hey Elizabeth.... long time no text.
I'm not really familiar with the forum, but isn't there a rule about not asking for homework?

[Mike Cash]

If there is, it gets ignored along with all the other rules. Again, welcome to the internet.

[Elizabeth]

Hey Elizabeth.... long time no text.
I'm not really familiar with the forum, but isn't there a rule about not asking for homework?
They haven't been taken down lately if there ever was....and it isn't usually so explicit anyway. The main problems making it more and more frustrating to try and attract new people are a shortage of high-level conversation threads and overall lack of interest in doing everyone's translations -- the vaccum created by a few core members leaving really does have a compounding effect....for any of you even thinking of going now ! :evil:

[Uncle Frank]

I try hard not to repeat subjects, but it's difficult to think up new ideas all the time. Sometimes you start what you hope will be a good thread and get 2 replys, tends to discourage the thought process.It seems at the moment that J-Rock rules the roost. If every post and thread is a subject you have no interest in, it makes it a little hard to spend time here and stay loyal. It seems hard too, to come up with a thread that generates heavy thinking but not emotions that get out of control. In the past we have had some members that were banned for loseing their temper over posts and going off the deep end. I have trouble with posts that seem to deal with hateing someone for past deeds. I know we shouldn't forget history, but it seems crazy to keep re-living past history just to carry on the hate. I can't help but think of Roddney King's "Can't we all just get along?" statement. Maybe I should get rid of my rose colored glasses with the rainbow design and "Love one another" on the ear pieces?

Frank

:blush:

[kirei_na_me]

Yes, it has changed. Not that it's a bad thing, but a lot more people have joined. That means a lot more activity everywhere. There seems to be a lot of people thinking they can be handed gigantic translation projects on a silver platter, Japan-haters, and of course, the hundreds--if not thousands--of J-Pop posts per day(which is my personal favorite :okashii:).

I think I was the main one who pushed for the Japan/China bilateral section, and sometimes, I think it's created a monster. We've got a lot of these "subtle bashers", I call them, but I am the one who really pushed for it, so I really shouldn't say anything. The reason I pushed for it was because I wanted to confine all that anti-Japanese sentiment to one section. I didn't want it spread throughout the site. People need to realize that this site is primarily for people who are genuinely interested in Japan and have some kind of connection to Japan. I am all for not sugar-coating it, but it's not supposed to be for those who want to bash it constantly.

Believe me, I am not one to praise Japan. I think it's a well-known fact among the members that I'll be almost the last one to praise it, but there needs to be some happy medium. I think there are people here whose main agenda is to bash Japan, but they try to mix in everywhere else. This is one of my main gripes. This is what gets to me the most. See, I make no bones about the problems I have with the Japanese on some issue, where other people try to disguise their real agenda, I believe. Anyway, that's another story...

All I want is for people to get along. I know that sounds corny and unrealistic, but that's what I want. I want to see people being civil. I really don't like to see insults thrown around. It bothers me.

Ok, this is sounding a bit corny, so I'll stop.

Just try to think before you type, and by thinking, I mean taking other people's feelings into consideration. I don't mean the deeper-than-the-depths-of-the-Marianas-Trench type thinking. I mean just being nice...being considerate. That's pretty simple and doesn't require much thought.

[Kinsao]

I like to look in Politics section and read what people have posted, but I very, very rarely post anything there myself. This is because I feel that my knowledge is nowhere near good enough to keep up with everyone else's. There seems to be a load of well-informed and intelligent people (of various points of view) who post in all the sections on J-ref, and quite simply I can't compete.

However, I do feel kind of bad that I post a lot more in the J-pop section than in any other. I feel like I don't contribute anything to the forum, not compared with what I get out of it. I don't live in Japan; I have never even visited there. I know that people can take part in a discussion by using intelligence, even if they don't have first-hand knowledge, but I am not very clever. I try to make contributions to Serious Discussions and Chit Chat and Miscellaneous (areas where I can better disguise my lack of knowledge or brain!), but my postageness is extremely unbalanced all the same. :sorry:

Ummmm... I just read that and realised it's all "me, me, me..." ... I just felt bad that I seemed to neglect some major areas of the forum, and really, I just wanted people to know that I still read them even though I don't post... (like anyone cares wtf I do, anyway!) :bluush:

Also, I wanted to say that as far as spammers and Japan-bashing goes, this is a whole load better than some other forums I've been on. There seems to be people willing to keep those "types" in line, or at least try and squeeze some sensible, real discussion out of them. And behaviour that is clearly out of order is dealt with pretty well, I think.

One last thing, totally irrelevant but I have to say it because I'm annoying that way :sorry: ... I very occasionally (I want to stress the very occasionally) run across a bad vibe about the J-pop section. (I am ABSOLUTELY NOT meaning from anyone in particular, I want to make that quite clear.) Mainly because, there are a vaaaast number of posts made there, many of which are very short, pretty pointless and miles from the topic. I, personally, would love to see more "serious discussion" there, too. But I would also like to say that the people who post on there are among the most friendly and welcoming I have ever encountered on Japan- or music-related forums/message-boards (some of the hate that goes around in some has to be seen to be believed! :o ). That's part of the reason for the insane amount of postageness; people feel comfortable enough to become chatty, perhaps to the detriment of the theme, but to the benefit of... something else, I'm not quite sure of the word. :bluush: And they don't all stay in J-pop all of the time. :okashii:

I don't mean to sound as though I'm bitching at all. I'm just sort of trying to stand up for people in their absence, I guess......... :souka:

[lastmagi]

I like to look in Politics section and read what people have posted, but I very, very rarely post anything there myself. This is because I feel that my knowledge is nowhere near good enough to keep up with everyone else's. There seems to be a load of well-informed and intelligent people (of various points of view) who post in all the sections on J-ref, and quite simply I can't compete.

However, I do feel kind of bad that I post a lot more in the J-pop section than in any other. I feel like I don't contribute anything to the forum, not compared with what I get out of it. I don't live in Japan; I have never even visited there. I know that people can take part in a discussion by using intelligence, even if they don't have first-hand knowledge, but I am not very clever. I try to make contributions to Serious Discussions and Chit Chat and Miscellaneous (areas where I can better disguise my lack of knowledge or brain!), but my postageness is extremely unbalanced all the same. :sorry:

Kinsao, the fact that you are interested in stuff happening in the "real world" of Japan and making an effort to educate yourself by reading the posts on current events is admirable. I don't think there's any need to feel bad about not contributing, and I think I've seen you post sometimes here anyway. We're all here to learn!

One last thing, totally irrelevant but I have to say it because I'm annoying that way :sorry: ... I very occasionally (I want to stress the very occasionally) run across a bad vibe about the J-pop section. (I am ABSOLUTELY NOT meaning from anyone in particular, I want to make that quite clear.) Mainly because, there are a vaaaast number of posts made there, many of which are very short, pretty pointless and miles from the topic. I, personally, would love to see more "serious discussion" there, too. But I would also like to say that the people who post on there are among the most friendly and welcoming I have ever encountered on Japan- or music-related forums/message-boards (some of the hate that goes around in some has to be seen to be believed! :o ). That's part of the reason for the insane amount of postageness; people feel comfortable enough to become chatty, perhaps to the detriment of the theme, but to the benefit of... something else, I'm not quite sure of the word. :bluush: And they don't all stay in J-pop all of the time. :okashii:

I don't mean to sound as though I'm bitching at all. I'm just sort of trying to stand up for people in their absence, I guess......... :souka:

It's true that I'm not the most sympathetic to many fans of j-pop culture, even though I'm kind of one myself. I do note that the atmosphere is one in which people are comfortable being chatty and friendly. On the other hand, the pointlessness, the hyperness and the shallowness (and at times immaturity, most definitely seen in other forums) of the posts do get irritating and make me question to what extent I want to be in with the mainstream crowd of japanese music. I think one of the things that bug me, to put this part back OT, is the "bubble aura" I sometimes get from j-pop culture fans. Obviously does not include everyone, but I think there's a sense of idealization of the Japanese and its culture, which may mislead them into thinking that Japanese society is picture perfect. Just a hunch, and like I said, not descriptive of everyone.

(Sorry for the OT below, but Kinsao brought up an interesting discussion about the JPop forum)

I think that the j-music culture among fans is still in its very earliest stages of development. My theory is that since there is relatively little professional interest in the topic (and little interest among j-music fans in professionalism), and that j-music is most accessible from anime (which is only beginning to be taken seriously in Western academia), it will take some time for more serious discussions to come around. Hopefully, people will grow out of whether "Haido-sama" will divorce "Megu-b*tch" just to marry them and make them a princess with pretty bishounen bodyguards with yaoi tendencies.

[kirei_na_me]

Kinsao, at least you make appearances in other areas! That's not the only section you hang in. You contribute a lot in other sections of the site, therefore, you rock my socks! :p

[Kinsao]

It's true that I'm not the most sympathetic to many fans of j-pop culture, even though I'm kind of one myself. I do note that the atmosphere is one in which people are comfortable being chatty and friendly. On the other hand, the pointlessness, the hyperness and the shallowness (and at times immaturity, most definitely seen in other forums) of the posts do get irritating and make me question to what extent I want to be in with the mainstream crowd of japanese music. I think one of the things that bug me, to put this part back OT, is the "bubble aura" I sometimes get from j-pop culture fans. Obviously does not include everyone, but I think there's a sense of idealization of the Japanese and its culture, which may mislead them into thinking that Japanese society is picture perfect. Just a hunch, and like I said, not descriptive of everyone.

(Sorry for the OT below, but Kinsao brought up an interesting discussion about the JPop forum)

I think that the j-music culture among fans is still in its very earliest stages of development. My theory is that since there is relatively little professional interest in the topic (and little interest among j-music fans in professionalism), and that j-music is most accessible from anime (which is only beginning to be taken seriously in Western academia), it will take some time for more serious discussions to come around. Hopefully, people will grow out of whether "Haido-sama" will divorce "Megu-b*tch" just to marry them and make them a princess with pretty bishounen bodyguards with yaoi tendencies.

I am extremely interested in what you say, Lastmagi! :cool: It seems like a different world from the one in which I move. I became interested in Japanese music because of one song that I downloaded, from a site I accessed by mistake when searching for something else. I knew absolutely zilch about Japan at that time. I have never watched anime, and bought my first few manga only last week! :relief: Hey though, I am not trying to justify myself and claim to be any different from other fans of Japanese music! I am just really interested to see another angle.

I have seen examples of what you mean about people idealising Japan and its culture, and that is very incomprehensible to me. I can't see how anyone can in fact be so... unrealistic, I suppose is the word I'm looking for.

I have a soft spot for Japanese music because that is what made me want to learn Japanese language. I found myself involuntarily 'learning' from comparing romaji lyrics with translations! And I decided to learn formally. So I feel in some way music helped to 'educate' me... lol.

As I play instruments, I was very interested in what you might call the 'technical' side of the music; how it is put together and how it is played, etc. etc. Japanese culture itself held no interest for me whatsoever (I mean, no more so than any other country - they are all interesting of course!)

But I am not sure exactly what you mean by 'professionalism' :? Do you mean by 'professional interest', from musicians and people involved in the music industry? Lol - although I'm not the world's greatest musician, I would be very pleased to have more 'musiciany' discussions under the j-pop umbrella. (Although, a number of the regular posters there do in fact play instruments, so, not always 'armchair enthusiast'!) I think there is a lot of genuine musical interest there, which is what hooked me into Japanese music to begin with, as I was getting bored with the music scene in the UK. In all honesty I feel largely 'out' of the j-pop/rock scene because my interest is very strongly on sound rather than visuals. My interest in the 'visuals' stems largely from my background in fine art, and I regard it seperately from music altogether. I also am sometimes a little sorry that there are not more older j-pop/rock fans. I think people sometimes think it's only for teenaged fangirl types. Well, they are missing out, in my opinion!

Ohhh... I am so sorry to go on about this. :sorry: It's just... music is something that's very close to my heart. And I find it too hard to shut up about it!

[Kinsao]

Awww thank you so much for your nice comment Kirei! :blush:

[noyhauser]

Kinsao, I agree with what you're saying about the Jpop forum. Actually it sounds a bit like the state of the Anime Forums about two years ago, which I also ranted a bit about in much the same way you did. Personally though I don't think that these are problems for the forum. Being a bit naive about what japanese music or anime has to offer is not a terrible thing. It can get annoying for sure, but its really not that bad.

On the other hand what I'm talking about here is very different. Jrockers generally keep in their little area, and generally don't interfere with other areas of the board. People like yourself contribute with other areas of the board, which is a positive. Also People are generally willing to learn about Jrock and your opinion probably matters a great deal Kinsao. Actually looking over the forum the other day made me want to break out my MD collection and listen to some tracks.

However what I'm complaining about clearly is not limited to a small area, nor are people open to learning or enhancing learning on the board. the Anti Japanese group disfigures the political discussions on this board. Arguments are pointless because people don't want to learn about the other side... rather they want to just push their political agenda. People who want to talk about Japa or something similar get hounded for their view and "educated" about what is the right way to think. There is no discussion just rhetoric. The reputation system gets abused by people to support each other for their view... ratings aren't given according to the quality of the post. I'm getting negative reputation for posts on other threads just because I said this here. Thats not right and clearly against the whole idea behind reputation.

I think its wrong. And its not inevitable either. I don't think the people who are doing this will listen, or change their views, but maybe moderators can enforce more order. For example we don't need 10 threads about warcrimes in the Japanese history forum. On almost every single board I know of that would be considered spamming, and a moderator would step in. It isn;t healthy for the board at all because it gives prospective posters a skewed view of what this forum is about. It has contributed to longtime posters not posting anymore; People who have balanced intelligent views about japan.

And I agree there are worse boards out there, I've seen a few. However that doesn't mean that nothing should be done here.

[mad pierrot]

I don't think the people who are doing this will listen, or change their views, but maybe moderators can enforce more order. For example we don't need 10 threads about warcrimes in the Japanese history forum. On almost every single board I know of that would be considered spamming, and a moderator would step in. It isn;t healthy for the board at all because it gives prospective posters a skewed view of what this forum is about. It has contributed to longtime posters not posting anymore; People who have balanced intelligent views about japan.

Difference of opinion. I don't think mass deletion of threads and banning people is a productive way of keeping respectable forums. You're basically arguing that unless people post as you do, they shouldn't be allowed in at all. I agree there are posts that don't live up to the standard of intelligent, adult discussion, but like Mike said, this is the internet. There's always going to be bozos out there. Remember, you have the option of ignoring people. If people aren't living up to your standards, then go in there and fight it. Start more intelligent discussions.

[nurizeko]

The WW2 threads are this places equivilant of the christian vs science or democrat vs republican type of threads.

We should make a new sub-forum called japan and WW2, might keep them out of the way.

[Mike Cash]

While a new sub-forum for Japan and WWII may very well be a worthwhile thing to have, people with serious axes to grind will still post anywhere and everywhere they think they can gain an audience.

[Mycernius]

I don't think a sub-forum for Japan and WWII would be a very good idea. The subject causes some very radical posts and already upset people to the point where they will leave Jref or start insulting and nasty posts. One forum for this subject will probably have more locked down threads than the rest of the fora put togther. Unfortunatly the subject, despite being 60 years old, makes good ammunition for the governments of the far east and will continue using it as long as it makes people forget other problems. As Mikecash said, this is the internet and you can't stop people from airing their views, however radical they may be.
I don't post much on the political forum as it is an area I am not well versed. I will see the occasional thread or post that will pique my interest and feel I must reply to it, but most of the time I will just read through them.
As for the j-pop forum. Most of the people who are currently posting and creating threads on this forum are teenagers. I am not having a go at them, but most of them are more interested in the music scene than politics and some of the serious discussions. If you read through some of the threads on j-pop you will see that they seem to be getting along fairly well and are starting some genuine friendships. Okay some of the threads are a bit grating for the older members, such as the *huggles* etc, but it is one of the less confrontational forums and everybody is having fun in there. They might not want to post on some of the more serious threads due to the content of some threads. For some teenagers, especially if English is not your first language, the subject matter can be daunting and they could be afraid of being smacked down by older, more experienced members. I wish some of them would post in the other sections, as I feel a younger persons view can be very refreshing and can actually open up more paths to go down and explore. :-)

[Mike Cash]

I don't begrudge the anime and music fans a place to congregate, and I don't care what the content or tone of their posts are. Whatever they choose to do is fine with me, and I suspect with some of the others who don't read those forums as well.

The only thing that is aggravating, and it certainly isn't the fault of those anime and music fans, is pulling up a list of new posts since our last visit and scrolling through page after page of new posts that predominantly are in areas of zero interest.

Even with my supremely developed level of embittered gittitude I don't wish them to go away....I just wish their new posts didn't show up in my list.

Come to think of it, what irritates me far, far more is the Member's Introduction area. Especially after some individual has gone through and added a "Welcome to the forum! <various multiple asinine smilies>" to every post he can find.

[Kinsao]

Come to think of it, what irritates me far, far more is the Member's Introduction area. Especially after some individual has gone through and added a "Welcome to the forum! <various multiple asinine smilies>" to every post he can find.

Aww Mikecash, your embittered gittitude never fails to brighten my day!

That is a wonderful phrase... "embittered gittitude"... the delicate balance of assonance and alliteration, plus the aesthetic pleasure of seeing it written down with all those graceful t-crosses and playful peppering of i-dots... a masterpiece, I congratulate you!

Thanks to everyone who had superhuman patience with my music-related rants, btw. I got sort of carried away.

It has always puzzled me why people would bash Japan in the political forum, anyway. I mean, it's not as if we can all turn around and say we love the government of our countries and everything they do, right? And, personally, I think the mods (and other posters too!) do a good job of hitting genuine nastiness over the head pretty damn quick.

[Maciamo]

Noyhauser, could you point at the threads that you say "have transformed the forum".
I haven't been very active on the forum since April this year, because I have been busy at work, and busy working on other sections of JREF (travel, redesign...).

May we should moderate more strictly the "China vs Japan" and "WWII" threads. Let us not allow any new thread for issues that have already been raised.

[senseiman]

Noyhauser - glad to see you are posting again, I was wondering what had happened to you.

I've been checking the boards just about every day and I notice that the political discussions seem to be dominated by people wanting to slam Japan for world war two and not apologizing as much as Germany. There are probably a million and one more interesting topics to discuss, but there seems to be always about half a dozen active threads related to that one narrow topic, its boring as hell!

Other than that I think the boards are doing pretty well. I left Japan a few months back (god do I MISS the place), so I suppose I haven't been as enthusiastic about posting things related to Japan recently.

[lexico]

My brief comment on the so-called Japan bashing:

1) historically inaccurate remarks are supposed to be corrected.

2) arguments contrary to sound logic demand correction.

3) arguments going against human rights, rights to be protected from verbal defense of war crimes a/o verbal racial assaults, and statements reflecting such ideas, must be corrected.

Flag attacks, language attacks, and racial attacks are quite revolting to human reason no matter who you are, no ? I was raised to respect humans in general, but I was also raised on the idea that inaccuracy, illogicality, and inhumanity must not be tolerated. I am certain that everyone can agree on these modern ideas that were formulated to guarantee a just, humane, and peaceful world where everyone can enjoy the freedeom of a non-violent, non-degrading atmosphere.

Those who tried to instigate racial conflicts were pounded upon; but I gravely disagree with some of Noyhauser's statements which is incongruent with some very basic values that should have been the ground on which an international forum like this forum was founded.

[noyhauser]

I'm a bit pressed for time today. I will post the first part today, and the rest definately tommorrow

Difference of opinion. I don't think mass deletion of threads and banning people is a productive way of keeping respectable forums. You're basically arguing that unless people post as you do, they shouldn't be allowed in at all. I agree there are posts that don't live up to the standard of intelligent, adult discussion, but like Mike said, this is the internet. There's always going to be bozos out there. Remember, you have the option of ignoring people. If people aren't living up to your standards, then go in there and fight it. Start more intelligent discussions.

I’m not asking people on here post as I do. In the very first post I made in this thread I pointed out that I’ve had many disagreements with people on this board, many of whom I believe are diametrically opposed to my point of view. However I completely respect them for their view, and would never ask for them to be censured. Moreover as I pointed out above to dutch baka, which you have failed to notice, quality of expression has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

What I think you fail to realize is that by letting Anti Japanese trolling to occur, you aren’t doing free speech any favours, you’re actually hurting it. People are refusing to post in the Political forums because arguments get corrupted into mindless anti Japanese rhetoric that had nothing to do with the original topic. Me posting will do little to change these people because of the nature of the topic. I'm not arguing that warcrimes don't exist. This isn't a "no you're wrong" situation, since I and most other open minded people I know don't deny warcrimes. I think that most people want to move beyond it. I do maintain that violence and constant rhetoric will only inflame Japanese opinion against the people perpetrating it, but replies go right to the same old rhetoric. Moreover the forum itself is essentially getting spammed by these threads.(see below for the example) I can’t come up with a dozen new threads to counteract the posting of every single new photograph that emerges from the Yasukuni shrine.

I don’t disagree that warcrimes occurred or that the Japanese haven’t completely atoned for their war guilt, I’ve never said that. That’s not what this is about. However what I am disagreeing here about is how people go into other threads and push that political agenda onto a seemingly unrelated thread, or incessantly post about it. I ask you now, is 10 threads on warcrimes about Japanese history indicative of Japanese history or the intelligence level of this board? It sinks other, far more intelligent threads off the page, where casual poster won’t see them. They will think though that this is all people can talk about.

Noyhauser, could you point at the threads that you say "have transformed the forum".
I haven't been very active on the forum since April this year, because I have been busy at work, and busy working on other sections of JREF (travel, redesign...).

I think its not just one thread or a small number. If it was just one thread It would be easy to ignore and I certainly wouldn't be here complaining. Just a casual viewing. of the Forum topics of the Japanese history forum (Not even the Japanese Politics forum which are in a worse state) gives a fairly good idea of the problem.

A few good books

naginata & ninja's

Japanese WWII Uniforms

Himuro Family ( 1 2 )

Japan: A puppet Government?

WWII Japan Military History

book suggestions on Chinese (CCP/PRC) war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on Korean war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on Russian/USSR war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on Chinese (GMD/ROC) war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on US war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on Japanese war crimes, please

The Japanese and world history

Is that even close to a balanced reading of Japanese history? I realize this is a new trend on that forum, but its spam clear and simple and its clear that it is spreading. And as I stated above many threads about issues not dealing with warcrimes get corrupted by people to the blaming argument. Thats certainly the case in the For example the Hiroshima thread is a good Example (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=3&pp=25) (It really starts on page 4) There are far more examples, but I'm a bit pressed for time (my dissertation is due tomorrow)

[Maciamo]

Noyhauser, I have had a closer look at the Politics section, and indeed realised that many people posted threads that should not have been in that category, but in the China-Japan relations, Non-Japanese News or Serious Discussion sections. I have moved all the cuplrits. From now on, I will penalise (negative reputation points) people posting non-Japan related thread in the "News & Hot topics" section, as this is part of the Japan Forum, and not a subsection of "Serious discussion".

[noyhauser]

Thank you for your considertation. Maciamo, I appreciate it. For my part I will try to post more as well.

[mad pierrot]

I’m not asking people on here post as I do. In the very first post I made in this thread I pointed out that I’ve had many disagreements with people on this board, many of whom I believe are diametrically opposed to my point of view. However I completely respect them for their view, and would never ask for them to be censured. Moreover as I pointed out above to dutch baka, which you have failed to notice, quality of expression has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

What I think you fail to realize is that by letting Anti Japanese trolling to occur, you aren’t doing free speech any favours, you’re actually hurting it. People are refusing to post in the Political forums because arguments get corrupted into mindless anti Japanese rhetoric that had nothing to do with the original topic. Me posting will do little to change these people because of the nature of the topic. I'm not arguing that warcrimes don't exist. This isn't a "no you're wrong" situation, since I and most other open minded people I know don't deny warcrimes. I think that most people want to move beyond it. I do maintain that violence and constant rhetoric will only inflame Japanese opinion against the people perpetrating it, but replies go right to the same old rhetoric. Moreover the forum itself is essentially getting spammed by these threads.(see below for the example) I can’t come up with a dozen new threads to counteract the posting of every single new photograph that emerges from the Yasukuni shrine.

I don’t disagree that warcrimes occurred or that the Japanese haven’t completely atoned for their war guilt, I’ve never said that. That’s not what this is about. However what I am disagreeing here about is how people go into other threads and push that political agenda onto a seemingly unrelated thread, or incessantly post about it. I ask you now, is 10 threads on warcrimes about Japanese history indicative of Japanese history or the intelligence level of this board? It sinks other, far more intelligent threads off the page, where casual poster won’t see them. They will think though that this is all people can talk about.


My bad. I don't have constant access to a computer anymore, and after checking into the history section a bit more deeply, and re-reading your post, I think I catch your drift. Personally, my attitude in general towards moderating is that the less the better, although I can see that you and some other members might appreciate more in that area.

:sorry:

[pipokun]

No need to penalise posts, just combine the posts under the name of freedom, democracy, justice, truth or whatever. :09: is all? I hope so.

History & Traditions
Your lounge for Japanese traditions and history.

book suggestions on Chinese (CCP/PRC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Korean war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Russian/USSR war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Chinese (GMD/ROC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on US war crimes/atrocities, please

[noyhauser]

I hope you notice that all those posts you pointed out has nothing to do with Japanese history and traditions

[Mike Cash]

Make an "Embittered Axe-Grinders" subforum.

[noyhauser]

would you be the first member?

or would the "embittered" forum be sufficient?

[Mike Cash]

I'm not embittered; it just looks that way on the internet.

[noyhauser]

Welcome to the internet.

[lexico]

No need to penalise posts, just combine the posts under the name of freedom, democracy, justice, truth or whatever. :09: is all? I hope so.

History & Traditions
Your lounge for Japanese traditions and history.

book suggestions on Chinese (CCP/PRC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Korean war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Russian/USSR war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Chinese (GMD/ROC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on US war crimes/atrocities, pleaseI hope you notice that all those posts you pointed out has nothing to do with Japanese history and traditions.Good suggestion, pipokun, but bad observation, noyhauser. If you've been following the various discussions here and there which you obviously haven't, you would have learned that there were complaints for the Imperial Japanese position that they were not the only ones to commit atrocities.

Have you ever heard of 'balanced study' 'objective study' 'comparative study' ? Do you recognise reading posts how the IJA forces were badly treated by the US marines, the Soviet troops & the labor camps, or how Korean conscripts in Imperial Japanese Army uniform committed atrocities in Hong Kong for example ? See you have the slightest idea what I am aiming at, you budding political scientist.

I am only accomodating those complaints to give a fair assessment for everyone invovled, but you only see my flag. I could have started something on European atrocities in Africa, but refrained from doing so because the geography and history of Africa gives little chance of much atrocity between them and Imperial Japan. Get it ?

Those countries were selected by their very proximity to Imperial Japan, although I could have also asked for information from Mongolia, the Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Bangladesh, India, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, and New Zealand. I am excercising restraint to keep a balance in case you haven't noticed. Invest some time in the forum before jumping to any random conclusion that fits your fancy, noyhauser.

Furtheremore, in the Korean War and the Vietnam War, Modern Japan was heavily involved in logistics which explains the sudden economic growth of Japan at least in part. Apart from atrocities, these histories are inseparable from the history of Modern Japan. As a budding political scientist, you should be keenly aware of these facts far more than I, a mere lexicographer, could possibly be.

edit: I just learned that a mod/admin moved the following to Serious discussions >> American Issues (http://www.jref.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=121):book suggestions on US war crimes/atrocities, please (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19107)and the following to Serious discussions (http://www.jref.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=96): book suggestions on Chinese (CCP/PRC) war crimes/atrocities, please (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19109)
book suggestions on Korean war crimes/atrocities, please (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19106)
book suggestions on Russian/USSR war crimes/atrocities, please (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19110)However, the following has disappeared into no-man's land. Does that mean Taiwan has no intention of getting involved in this debate ? To my knowledge gained from R.J. Rummel's studies and independeent sources, GMD-ROC Taiwan gov't has been quite brutal in its counter-coummunist operations in Nanjing ('Bandit Suppression campaigns,' starting in December 1930 and lasting until 1935, Jiang Jie Shi attempted to exterminate the Communist forces in China. These campaigns were launched as follows: (1) December 1930; (2) May 1931; (3) June 1931; (4) April 1933; (5) October 1933), anti-Japanese campaign, the massacres of native Taiwanese aborigines, and torture of dissident groups and individuals. GMD-ROC's brutalities have been not insignificant, and hence deserve close studies in its own right.book suggestions on Chinese (GMD/ROC) war crimes/atrocities, pleaseNow if you have any complaints about being partial, you know where to go to report them instead of constantly whining about it without proper support. Those threads are where you can help your argument by leaving your sources and references used. One example would be Tibetan issues. They do not count as valid counterarguments anymore in the Japanese forum, clear now ?

[Mars Man]

Well, I'm just kind of butt'n in here, cause you see, I ain't got much time under the belt here at Jref, and, uh, I just 'bout got no care for messy political things. . . yet you know, I think I can really see where a lot of you folks are coming from, but just am in no position to help much, I guess. Kind of hopless, huh?

But I just hope that this all plays out right. That we can all do our best to see what the facts are on things that kind of require known, or thought to be facts, so that I don't have to worry about Jref falling apart after I just joined only some 43 or so days ago.

I think there are a lot of nice people voicing things here, and I always try to see that first,regardless. . . sorry for going astray, this is supposed to be about the 'political' area, and here I am fettin' over the in-fightin'. . . time to go. I hope it all works out !! Really !! And here's a smiley for my good buddy Mike !! See you all later !! :wave:

[noyhauser]

Have you ever heard of 'balanced study' 'objective study' 'comparative study' ? Do you recognise reading posts how the IJA forces were badly treated by the US marines, the Soviet troops & the labor camps, or how Korean conscripts in Imperial Japanese Army uniform committed atrocities in Hong Kong for example ? See you have the slightest idea what I am aiming at, you budding political scientist.

I think that post was a tad condescending, Lexico (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19144&page=2&pp=25), and that mildly offends me. Let's stick to the original topic, but with an objective and critical reading of the article before engaging in uncourteous debate. I'll stop here.

[lexico]

My bad, but thank you for quoting me, Noyhauser. It is good to see that you are finally learning something, as I am doing from you. Way to go, bud. :-)

edit: I'd suggest we keep the personal messages to PM or email. My PM space is pretty limited right now, but you can email me at the address in my profile.

[noyhauser]

Oh but I have so much to learn. Like how to post reputation just like you.

You've just dragged thise thread you started into the limbo; that was another unintelligent post. Courtesy of your dear Rabbi, Lexico

Self-defeating rhetoric; you should try harder, Noyhauser ! Courtesy of your dear rabbi Lexico

Would you mind explaining to me what you mean by Rabbi? Do you think so much of yourself that you would deem to call yourself "rabbi"?

[mad pierrot]

I'm not embittered; it just looks that way on the internet.

That's funny, because I AM embittered, but it doesn't look that way on the internet.

(At least not all of the time.)


:relief: :p

[Maciamo]

It looks like Noyhauser and Lexico are revealing their Duelist (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/duelists.htm) personality here and there.

Btw, I have moved the threads about book recommendation that were not directly related to Japan in the Serious Discussion forum.

[pipokun]

Btw, I have moved the threads about book recommendation that were not directly related to Japan in the Serious Discussion forum.

slow, but good traffic control.

[Dutch Baka]

i am getting anoyed about some things, some people really are getting agressive word forms on here, and disrespect each other.. hope some people on here, can be a bit nicer and more respectfull for each other.... :( please

[Void]

o_O
Dutch, why to bring back - what has subdued and almost forgotten? People stopped by now, thread hibernating
besides, everyday niceness and fluffyness like "no matter what" is a sickly sweet fake.
Let them be... sometimes

[Dutch Baka]

sorry.. i just got anoyed a lot last night, from seem people, and peeps fighting on places... sorry to bring it back.. wont say it again..