is it all about the visual? [Archive]

kairi~vs~rinoa

Aug 31, 2005, 04:23

[>Kaidan<] why do people like dir en grey so much?
[>Kaidan<] I just don't get it.
[+ pink spider +] because they're talented... do you not like them then?
[>Kaidan<] They haven't shown talent in their music for about four years.
[>Kaidan<] I don't like quite a bit of their work.
[+ pink spider +] hmmmm i'll admit their music isn't what it used to be, but thats not a bad thing. i think they're still good.
[>Kaidan<] Honestly, they can't even duplicate what little talent they showed in their earlier work. Toshiya TOTALLY ****** over the Cage solo in the 5 days concerts.
[>Kaidan<] It's funny. I was one of their biggest fans about five years ago. XD Oh how the mighty have fallen.
[>Kaidan<] I've given them more money than most every person that has accused me of just being a hater on them. XD
[jeunne_fille] i liked their music when they were visual, now they are more mainstream
[>Kaidan<] That's another thing. What is up with visual? Do people really need a pretty face to sell them music?
[>Kaidan<] Has the world become so shallow?
[jeunne_fille] visual kei is the basis of most japanese rock bands and now teen culture in Japan, why do you hate it? it is just an art form
[>Kaidan<] There are so many great bands out there (speaking of japanese music, that is) that don't have to dress up like ugly women to make good (better) music.
[jeunne_fille] excuse me , ugly? and its not shallow at all
[>Kaidan<] Most japanese teens LAUGH at visual kids.
[>Kaidan<] IT'S A JOKE.
[>Kaidan<] It's an insult to their fanbase.
[>Kaidan<] To think that their fans wont care unless they look good. Which is really a sad thing, because it's true. Most visual fans only like bands because of their looks.
[>Kaidan<] Talk to any cosplay girl at almost any visual live, and they'll tell you "i only like this band because ____ is so cute."
[+ pink spider +] so you're saying that most people don't like diru now because they've eased off on the vk?
[>Kaidan<] I'm saying who cares what dir en grey look like, their music has been kind of lacking for the past four years.
[>Kaidan<] I mean, every new release seems to have more and more distortion covering everything. There's little discernable guitar work that you can make out through the haze.
[>Kaidan<] Kyo's vocals have dissolved into hardly anything other than screams and moans and whines.
[>Kaidan<] I'm saying that dir en grey fans, for the most part, must be either fans of screamo, or are just being loyal to the band that they used to like, but still want to support (for some reason).
[>Kaidan<] I just lament the fact that they no longer seem to care what they sound like, as long as people will still give them money.
[>Kaidan<] Or maybe what some girl said yesterday is true, and that they're just trying to americanize their sound to appeal to their overseas fanbase.
[>Kaidan<] But seeing them in lives, they really don't seem to enjoy it. I mean, during the 5 days blitz thing, they acted like they didn't even want to be there. You could TELL they didn't want to play their old songs....
[>Kaidan<] it wasn't a comfortable set of lives.
[>Kaidan<] But they dropped the old sound while they played the old songs. They revamped them with their newly acquired haze of distortion and screams.
[>Kaidan<] In some of the songs, the audience sang more than Kyo.
[>Kaidan<] There are other bands that aren't so lackadasical towards their music even after being around for 7+ years.
[>Kaidan<] Other who despite changing their sound drastically, don't end up sucking with every song sounding basically the same.

i'd like to hear people's opinions on this. is it really all about the vk these days?

DemonHunter

Aug 31, 2005, 04:28

i dont care about the vk clothing,i care more about the music

kairi~vs~rinoa

Aug 31, 2005, 04:32

i agree. i won't deny that vk helps to like a band, but not that much to stop you going out and buying their stuff.

DemonHunter

Aug 31, 2005, 04:34

the only j-music cd i own
is the melt banana-13 hedgehogs

most of the time i listen to punk/hardcore/metal or other j music

like G.I.S.M,Death Side,Nightmare(The Hardcore Band),Framtid,Hellchild,BBQ Chickens,10 Feet, Gauze,The Execute,Laughing Nose,Matsuji,Kemuri,The Stalin,
Acid Mothers Temple,Boredoms,Melt Banana, and some bands i forgot

SaKeVi

Aug 31, 2005, 04:49

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 05:08

Kaidan is a girl btw. omg Kaidan?! was this taken from Gaia? cuz i know Pink Spider too...

and of course looks and talent dont relate at all. i mean look at the vocals of Alice Nine! he's as cute as a button, but his voice suck real bad. also nightmare appeal to me in the same way. actually a lot of VK bands suck, and most of them look alike. on the opposite, i don't think GO!GO!7188 look good at all, but their music just kick so much ***.

also on the Dir en Grey thing, Kaidan has talked about this before somewhere, and i can understand because their music HAVE gone western to appeal to oversea fans :stare: o well at least they'll get money from the lame. i just hope that they will change the style next album, it's getting boring as they've done the same style with 2 albums. i guess nothgin can compare with their earlier stuff.

DemonHunter

Aug 31, 2005, 05:30

Hey, I totally agree with Kaidan !!!! Everything he said is true, eventhough DeG has quit to Visual...

All of those bands sell more because of their 'looks' than their music, and suddenly you can see a bad quality on music, all because this kids are more interested on being cute for the fans than giving a good alternative on music.

Hey Demon, you should get LP's of japanese punk, look around Distros worldwide, they worth every $$ you invest on them... Framtid?? great, hahahaha.

See you!!
@SaKeVi
im planing on getting

Stop Jap and Mushi by The Stalin on cd,and trying to get that framtid Under The Ashes cd and the latest Balzac cd
talking about framtid,ive found some lives by them,still in the waiting line for it

i dont own a LP player(my dad has one but that one's dead)

when are you on slsk?

furan

Aug 31, 2005, 06:58

[>Kaidan<] Talk to any cosplay girl at almost any visual live, and they'll tell you "i only like this band because ____ is so cute."

that is tottaly true and it REALLY pisses me off...

i'm sorry i keep on bringing these guys into every dsingle topic, but i believe that they really are an extreemly talented Jrock band...
Kagrra, have changed dramatically over the 6 years they've been together... but they're still continuing to produce new music...
their sound has gone from good, hard rock/metal, to more melodic melo stuff... but lately Isshi#s returned to his dark lyrics, which makes me very happy...
but my point is... their sound has matured with them, as they've matured as a band....
yet their fans have imatured...
in the REALLy old lives of their, when they were under the name CROW... the fans were CLEARLY incredibly into the music... screaming and singing along, and moshing their heads off.... but.... now when i watch lives....
all you can hear is
AKIYA!!!!!!!!
NAOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
... no clapping, no CHREARING... just stupid fangirls screaming their names....
and... although you can tell they love it... i also think... Shin especially... get really tierd of it... because they put in a hell of a lot of work to come up with new and exciting things... but... the fans really don't seem to care...

i didn't know that Japanese singers were so hott untill the beging of this year... i'd been listening to their music for a good 3/4 months before hand...
i'#ve never been bothered by image... and it's ALWAYS been about the music... but that's because i'm a musical person....

to be honest... i know jack about Diru... but i know i like their music...
i LIKE heavier stuff... so i like it...
and to me... it's seemed more like they've been going the way THEY want to go... and not just doing what their fans want to do....
mybe they were getting fed up of jusat having fans loving them fir their image... so dropped it to see if thier fans would still like them....

Kagrra, did the same... they've changed their image as well as their music... but... i think because they're still young (and Isshi's still obsessed with himself XD) they're still.... yeah...
but they still blatantly love performing their old stuff... Kotodama (their first single) is practically done in hevery concert ^.^

AND... Plastic Tree... they're been going for even longer than Diru... and have also dropped their visual... and calmed down a bit...
loads of peopel hate them... buti love the pants off them...

anyways, i'll shut up now before i'm eaten :relief:

it was really interesting to read ^.^

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 07:12

I'd have to agree with everything Furan said really.

And I'm also incredibly annoyed by people like Kaidan who go on and on about what the band seems to care about as if, somehow, they could actually read their minds or something. They still produce good music from what I can tell for one thing, although, of course, people have the right to say the exact opposite. However, other things, such as what I mentioned first in this paragraph, no one but the band pretty much has the right to say that. They could have just been tired for Pete's sake. I'd be pretty grumpy if I had to go perform in front of a bunch of fangirls/boys who only liked me because I'm hot or some crap like that. I think the band has just changed over time like many, many other bands have done so. There is, of course, I possibility of them actually not caring anymore, but one: it's none of our business why they produce music, whether it be from just wanting to express themselves to people to just making moola, as long as the music is good. Just like what Kaiden's seems a bit upset over. It's about the MUSIC, not about anything else. Not their intention(s) or motivation(s) and certainly NOT how they look.

Anyway, as people may just be able to tell, the look is nothing to me whatsoever. I'll admit, it makes them possibly a bit prettier, but it doesn't improve their music. I want musicians for their music, not their looks. That's what models are for.

And I think I had other things to say here, but I've completely and utterly forgotten them type of thing, so I'll just shut my mouth up here.

furan

Aug 31, 2005, 07:26

mhh...
i agree mostly with what you say Horizon....

except... intentions are improtant for me....
i DON'T like people who just churn out music because they want to make money...

personally... i actually didn't have any problems with Avril Lavigne's music to begin with... but... then i saw her, and i was like.... wtf? i thought she was a country singer?
what bugs me about her is that she actually wanted to be a country singer, but her reccord lable said that wouldn't sell... be a punk instead... and so now she's all like 'o, i'm tottla hard cor'...:okashii:
anf bands like blink 182... i used to LOVE them.... untill iheared interviews and watched lives of theirs.... it broke my heart because i was unter the misconception that they were actually nice guys just wanting to express them selves through music...

bowling for soup, however (sorry for all the english examples :relief:) i don;t minds... because... they take the piss outta people like that... and yes, they are musicians, but they're prodominatly and entertainment act...
i saw them live at donnington, and they were possibly the best band to see live there... because they really involve themselves with all the fans and everyone... they're just happy to be where they are today, and wanna live it to their fullest... because they know they could be dropped anytime...

and Metalica... they were GODS... then they became sell outs and now i despise them...
i WILL, however, still listen to their old music... but i refuse to go see them, or support them any further...

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 07:33

The musicians that actually do it for the fans and/or just to express themselves do get better respect from me in most situations. However, good music is still good music. Especially if, like, 95%, if not more, of your fan base only like you for your looks. What's the point of trying to express yourself through music and the likes when the only responses you're going to get a something like: "mhg! So-and-so is just so HAWT! lyk omgh!" and, in response: "yea! I know he is! I prefer this other so-and-so though. he so HAWWWWWT!"

If that's what makes up more than half the crowd/fanbase I have, psssht! I'm so NOT going to pour my heart and soul out for the Hotness Zombies, ne, ne? Or, at least, there'd be times I didn't quite feel up to it or anything of the sort. So, in some cases, I might not just be able to blame the band. It just might seem so damn hopeless to them, you know what I mean here...? :relief:

furan

Aug 31, 2005, 07:46

lol
yeah... now tha i agree with...
it's just... for me, the music has to come as a whol pakage for me to be a REALLY big fan...

they have to be a respectable band, and make good music...

but that's because... like, i whent though the whole... 'revoluion' stage... like, you know when you get these people who only go arround listiening to 'unknown' bands and boycotting all corparate things?
yeah... my best friend's that to the extreem :relief:

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 07:49

I really wish people would just listen to a band for the BAND (meaning, of course, through musical/talented senses and not physical attributes)!

Jeez! This is why you hope to be so-called 'ugly' when you create a band. At least then you'll know no one'll like you only for your looks! :okashii:

But then you'd probably get people like your friend...:souka:

furan

Aug 31, 2005, 08:00

lol

yes.... first and formost... it's all about the music...
BUT... i don;t believe prasie should be givin to people who don't give a rats *** to those people loving their music... or to those people who don;t even try with their music....
to me, they're no worse than those corparate market people.... *grrs at them*

example... boy bands... yes, some of them are actually good singers.... and some of them actually write their own stuff....
but a LOT of them just do what they're told to do because they know they can do it well, and it's a quick rout to fame....

now THAT pisses me off...

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 08:11

Quite true, quite true! I agree!

And hence why I hate those television shows so much...:okashii: American Idol, Canadian Idol, and that new one Rock INX or whatever it's called. These people, from what I can tell (judging by Kelly Clarkslu-I mean, Clarkson, Clay My-Ears-Are-Aching!-...Err, I mean Aiken, Ruben, Ryan Malcolm, et cetera) they have absolutely NO talent! And they get the easy way in? All the other talented people had to break in through the crowd and the hardships and everything and these talentless idiots just waltz into the scene with a few votes?

It's disgusting!

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 09:49

hebiichigo

Aug 31, 2005, 09:52

Of course the visual matters. It's exactly the same thing even for bands and artists that aren't visual. If they look good, they get a lot of support. If they look good, people will be interested..
I could name a few Visual Kei bands right now that don't deserve half the popularity they have because it's due to how 'cool' or 'hot' or 'cute' they look. And please no one say that it's a bad problem with the "Western" fans because the Japanese fans are just the same, if not worse.
I would be lying if I said I don't like the visual aspect. But if I don't like the music, even if it's the best looking band ever, I will not listen to them.

And seriously, Dir en grey's "old style"? Listen to their albums properly. The albums are each different. No one had a problem with the changes in their music until they stopped dressing up and 'looking good'. I like all of Dir en grey's music, but that's just my taste. I'd rather they kept changing than remaining stagnant and producing albums like GAUZE 5 more times.

It sures annoys me when I hear people who call themselves Dir en grey fans going on about how they've changed or how they should be. What makes them think they know what's best for the band?
Dir en grey lost fans in Visual Kei, but they gained them from elsewhere..

So yeah, the visual matters, but it's not the most important thing to me.

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 09:53

i also feel kind of bad that Kaidan feels this way because she was like the biggest Diru fan and in her opinion they've let her down.

Well then...That's her fault, now isn't it? They're clearly doing what they themselves want to do. She should just accept it and either attempt to like their new sound(s) or just move on type of thing and stop hating so damn much type of thing.

Not to sound like a complete ***** here, but people like her don't really deserve feelings of sympathy or anything of the sort really.

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 09:56

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:19

And seriously, Dir en grey's "old style"? Listen to their albums properly. The albums are each different. No one had a problem with the changes in their music until they stopped dressing up and 'looking good'. I like all of Dir en grey's music, but that's just my taste. I'd rather they kept changing than remaining stagnant and producing albums like GAUZE 5 more times.
well visual things do have effect but it has nothing to do with talent.

now o: they still dressed up in Vulgar... yet i only like one half of the album. and i still love it when they play old songs such as cage and macabre in their normal, non-dressy clothing.

also i like Diru for changing too. i've like almost everything up till and including Six Ugly, and Vulgar was pretty nice too, but not as impressive as the complex composing of Macabre. when Withering came out, it's like "o my this sounds like Vulgar!". my problem is that they stopped changing music wise.

lastmagi

Aug 31, 2005, 10:20

Thanks for the thread. This brings me to a related point I've been wanting to address in ages. Take a look at the other threads in this subforum. They're all littered with posts upon posts dedicated to pictures or talk of some kind of visuals (usually VK-ers): "cutest pic of any jrocker" "the manliest jrock thread" "A poll for the prettiest Jrockers" "most girlish jrockers" "Gackt is ugly" etc. Even if the threads' titles aren't picture-thread indicators, the posts still tend towards uploading huge amounts of unneccessary pictures (like the Gazette one). Is it because some look "cool" that I'm supposed to be interested? Does this serve as some indication as to where the fanbase of Japanese Rock and Pop is heading? I've personally tried out bands that looked "cool" and the looks hardly are enough to keep me in.

Anyway, there's been some kind of strange trend to make this kind of false assumption, that:

indies/old era bands = VK = cutecuteCUTE!!! = better

despite the innovations that the bands might have made to improve their music. To me, this seems disrespectful that one would so easily choose to like a band just because of their visuals. (of course, people like bands regardless of both talented music and visuals, but that's another story).

And also what Horizon said. (I actually also like Diru's newer and improved music than their older works.)

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:21

Well then...That's her fault, now isn't it? They're clearly doing what they themselves want to do. She should just accept it and either attempt to like their new sound(s) or just move on type of thing and stop hating so damn much type of thing.

Not to sound like a complete ***** here, but people like her don't really deserve feelings of sympathy or anything of the sort really.
i meant i feel bad that she doesn't like Diru anymore like she should.

but that girl knows music. man does she know music... i got some songs from her and i like almost everything she's sent me.

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:24

Thanks for the thread. This brings me to a related point I've been wanting to address in ages. Take a look at the other threads in this subforum. They're all littered with posts upon posts dedicated to pictures or talk of some kind of visuals (usually VK-ers): "cutest pic of any jrocker" "the manliest jrock thread" "A poll for the prettiest Jrockers" "most girlish jrockers" "Gackt is ugly" etc. Even if the threads' titles aren't picture-thread indicators, the posts still tend towards uploading huge amounts of unneccessary pictures (like the Gazette one). Is it because some look "cool" that I'm supposed to be interested? Does this serve as some indication as to where the fanbase of Japanese Rock and Pop is heading? I've personally tried out bands that looked "cool" and the looks hardly are enough to keep me in.

And also what Horizon said. (I actually also like Diru's newer and improved music than their older works.)
well see, everytime some thread about non-VK stuff is posted, it gets eaten up. so what's the point?

also i believe Diru imporved skill wise. they are so talented yet their composing isnt as complex as they had before. that's my problem with their new stuff. other than that, DeG is god.

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 10:25

i meant i feel bad that she doesn't like Diru anymore like she should.

but that girl knows music. man does she know music... i got some songs from her and i like almost everything she's sent me.

If she hates a band just for changing their style, that's just sad...

rose_of_eternity

Aug 31, 2005, 10:28

well see, everytime some thread about non-VK stuff is posted, it gets eaten up. so what's the point?

also i believe Diru imporved skill wise. they are so talented yet their composing isnt as complex as they had before. that's my problem with their new stuff. other than that, DeG is god.

Diru ish my god -is listening to them now- iono I dont think its all visual... yes Kyo is an adorable kitty, and Shinya and Toshiya are beautiful, and Die... well hes to die for :D and Kaoru is sexy, but I love their music, old and new -_-; Theyre one of my fav bands, and they have music that really makes me all emotional and stuff :D ok I'm done ranting -runs away and hides in a dark pit-

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:29

If she hates a band just for changing their style, that's just sad...
no, she dislike them for not even caring for their old songs. she mentioned somewhere that Toshiya lacked his skill he had for cage (although i think that is total bull, because Toshiya's bass=heaven) it seems to me that she cares a thing or two about music.

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:30

Diru ish my god -is listening to them now- iono I dont think its all visual... yes Kyo is an adorable kitty, and Shinya and Toshiya are beautiful, and Die... well hes to die for :D and Kaoru is sexy, but I love their music, old and new -_-; Theyre one of my fav bands, and they have music that really makes me all emotional and stuff :D ok I'm done ranting -runs away and hides in a dark pit-
o_O i guess you're a visual fan.

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 10:33

no, she dislike them for not even caring for their old songs. she mentioned somewhere that Toshiya lacked his skill he had for cage (although i think that is total bull, because Toshiya's bass=heaven) it seems to me that she cares a thing or two about music.

And how does she know that they don't care about their old songs anymore? Maybe they've just changed so much over the years and now don't think their appropriate for them to perform anymore and/or they want to focus all their attention on how they are now and their new songs.

I hate it when people go yapping their mouth when they wouldn't know what the Hell is truly going on. I highly doubt the possibility that she can read minds and/or that they'd oh-so nicely inform her of everything on their minds. So, thusly, maybe, just maybe, she should stop pretending, hmm?

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 10:33

o_O i guess you're a visual fan.

And how'd you get that from this?

rose_of_eternity

Aug 31, 2005, 10:34

o_O i guess you're a visual fan.

Nah not really, yes, some are pretty, but I dont need to watch a pv to enjoy music, nor do I need to obsess over piccies, I don't listen to music just because the singer is good -_-; I listen because the muuuusic ish good too ^_^ Im a bit of both sides, if you get my drift :p

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:39

And how does she know that they don't care about their old songs anymore? Maybe they've just changed so much over the years and now don't think their appropriate for them to perform anymore and/or they want to focus all their attention on how they are now and their new songs.

I hate it when people go yapping their mouth when they wouldn't know what the Hell is truly going on. I highly doubt the possibility that she can read minds and/or that they'd oh-so nicely inform her of everything on their minds. So, thusly, maybe, just maybe, she should stop pretending, hmm?
well they dont even play their old songs anymore... i guess they are focusing on their new album...

*shrugs* she's a really huge jrock fan and very knowledgable about it. i'd think she knows what she's talking about.

hebiichigo

Aug 31, 2005, 10:40

when Withering came out, it's like "o my this sounds like Vulgar!". my problem is that they stopped changing music wise.

I completely disagree that Withering sounds like Vulgar.

And yeah, they dressed up in Vulgar. But it wasn't the same, was it? They still 'dress up', but maybe I should have made it more clear, that it's not the usual Visual Kei style that people like. I don't mean that people only dislike them now because of this, and I know people who just don't like the music, but it's still a factor. They stopped looking like pretty girls. Why? Because they are adult men... XD

They could be ugly as ever and I would still like them.

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:40

And how'd you get that from this?
Kyo is an adorable kitten... do i need to say more? xD

Kyo will eat you -_-

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 10:41

well they dont even play their old songs anymore... i guess they are focusing on their new album...

*shrugs* she's a really huge jrock fan and very knowledgable about it. i'd think she knows what she's talking about.

Just because you're a 'fan' of music, doesn't mean you know everything about a band, like, say, how they think, feel, et cetera. I doubt she's an empath and that wouldn't probably work anyway.

Oh! And I'm quite knowledgeable when it comes to animals! So I suppose, by your logic, I should be able to just magically know how they all think? Feel? Et cetera? Wow...I must need more practice then...:(

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 10:42

Kyo is an adorable kitten... do i need to say more? xD

Kyo will eat you -_-

Did you not see the 'yes' before that? It seemed to me like she was admitting how hot they were, but HOWEVER...

Basically, you can drool and drool over someone, but that doesn't mean you like their looks more than their music, now does it?

hebiichigo

Aug 31, 2005, 10:43

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 10:43

And that there makes some logical sense! :p

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:44

I completely disagree that Withering sounds like Vulgar.

And yeah, they dressed up in Vulgar. But it wasn't the same, was it? They still 'dress up', but maybe I should have made it more clear, that it's not the usual Visual Kei style that people like. I don't mean that people only dislike them now because of this, and I know people who just don't like the music, but it's still a factor. They stopped looking like pretty girls. Why? Because they are adult men... XD

They could be ugly as ever and I would still like them.
i personally like them with no make up... o_O and their visual look was nice, very creative, but im also really tired of VKness, because a lot of them i heard weren't that awsome. i like music by people i dont even have a clue what they look like.

i think Vulgar and Withering are very similar. at least compared to the differences they had between their preivous albums.

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:44

Just because you're a 'fan' of music, doesn't mean you know everything about a band, like, say, how they think, feel, et cetera. I doubt she's an empath and that wouldn't probably work anyway.

Oh! And I'm quite knowledgeable when it comes to animals! So I suppose, by your logic, I should be able to just magically know how they all think? Feel? Et cetera? Wow...I must need more practice then...:(
i guess she just doesnt like their new stuff.

rose_of_eternity

Aug 31, 2005, 10:44

Did you not see the 'yes' before that? It seemed to me like she was admitting how hot they were, but HOWEVER...

Basically, you can drool and drool over someone, but that doesn't mean you like their looks more than their music, now does it?

-huggles Horizon for understanding- :flower::flower:

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:45

hebiichigo

Aug 31, 2005, 10:47

i personally like them with no make up... o_O and their visual look was nice, very creative, but im also really tired of VKness, because a lot of them i heard weren't that awsome. i like music by people i dont even have a clue what they look like.

I like them without make up, too. I wasn't saying that you personally preferred them when they were extremely VK or anything. I was just rambling on.. XD
I agree with you that a lot of VK bands don't sound that good even if they do look good. But there are some that do :p

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:48

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 10:49

I like them without make up, too. I agree with you that a lot of VK bands don't sound that good even if they do look good. But there are some that do :p
yes i do like quite a few VK bands, or used to be VK bands. however i have expanded my horizons to other kick *** music as well xD *loves them...*

Kinsao

Aug 31, 2005, 18:31

geeeeeeee... a lot of intense postageness to get through! :relief:

I agree with what Horizon, Furan and Hebiichigo were saying on the last page. :cool:

It seems to me that pretty well everyone on this forum is agreed that they no way like bands just for their looks, but first and foremost for the music... because, let's face it, to like a band only for looks is pretty dumb, yes? They do work at making music, not being models! And people have said that thing over and over at various places on this forum, so I am just repeating now.

And on other forums there is the same thing - music fans complaining about the 'fangirls' who are only interested in looks. Although, I have never run across one of these visual-obsessed fangirls.

People who are well into the music, will obviously still make comments on the looks and such. That's normal. It doesn't mean the looks come first for them. Personally, I feel it gets to a point where it's taken as a given that we love the music primarily, and this forum just becomes a place where we can let our hair down and gush about random crap about the way our favourite musicians look. I think that's why there's so many threads like 'cutest jrocker', 'prettiest jrocker', etc. etc. Because it's just a bit of fun, and everyone here is mature enough to know that. (@ lastmagi: I think that addresses what you said about the threads being very visual-orientated. When you say 'unnecessary' images, I take issue with that, because, in my experience, people on this forum are only too willing to share their jrock music with others and exchange/post music just as much as images. The pics are their to provide the icing on the cake for those who already enjoy the songs.)

Personally, I kind of see the music and visual as entirely seperate. I mean, I have some pics of bands I've never even heard, which is pretty bad... but it's for kind of artistic reasons, if you follow me (oh gods, that sounds pretentious, but you know what I mean...), just that I like the nice pics. If the music doesn't do anything for me I obviously won't listen. In that case, I guess I look at the pics as I would at models.

But as I'm sure you already notice... my memory is terrible. So often, I can't remember at all what band members look like, can't tell them apart, etc. etc. So I'm already off at a bad start for visual!

I am sorry... I go on too long again. Mostly people already said what I wanted to say...

About Diru, though... I honestly am not even sure from which album are a lot of the songs I've got. I just listen and have my own personal faves. So I can't compare the latest albums with the older ones. But, it doesn't strike me that they are the kind of band who would churn out songs just for a market. I think they would make the kind of music they want... so I wish them all of luck, and I just continue to judge the individual songs and see if I like them or not. But to say that their technique is getting not so good? I wouldn't know about that... I haven't seen recent live... I can't see it happening as they seem to me very disciplined about such things, but it would be a shame if it was true. I hope not.

I'll shut up now. :bluush:

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 20:01

I agree with Kinsao as well! :p

i never said she didnt like music.

You were implying she liked the looks possibly more than the music however...

-huggles Horizon for understanding- :flower::flower:

-huggles back- Of course! :p

i guess she just doesnt like their new stuff.

And? Point please and thank you? I don't like a lot of people, but you don't see me attempting to somehow use my amazing empathy ability to read their minds or something and then turn around and begin to poison others' thoughts on them.

If she doesn't like them anymore, then fine, sure, whatever. Everyone's allowed their own taste. However, she should just cease in the entire 'let's all tell everyone how crappy they are now! lyk hommigawdd!'. People still like them and it's horribly unfair towards them to hear pissy, little bitches like Kaiden constantly bring down their band(s) just because they changed (apparently kind of like always)...

And if someone could pretty please with chibi JRockers on top take that and actually put it in better words as I seem unable to, be my guess! :blush: :wave:

Kinsao

Aug 31, 2005, 20:27

Actually I think you just said it fine! :blush:

Horizon

Aug 31, 2005, 20:37

Yay! Thank you!

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 22:41

It seems to me that pretty well everyone on this forum is agreed that they no way like bands just for their looks, but first and foremost for the music... because, let's face it, to like a band only for looks is pretty dumb, yes? They do work at making music, not being models! And people have said that thing over and over at various places on this forum, so I am just repeating now.

And on other forums there is the same thing - music fans complaining about the 'fangirls' who are only interested in looks. Although, I have never run across one of these visual-obsessed fangirls.

People who are well into the music, will obviously still make comments on the looks and such. That's normal. It doesn't mean the looks come first for them. Personally, I feel it gets to a point where it's taken as a given that we love the music primarily, and this forum just becomes a place where we can let our hair down and gush about random crap about the way our favourite musicians look. I think that's why there's so many threads like 'cutest jrocker', 'prettiest jrocker', etc. etc. Because it's just a bit of fun, and everyone here is mature enough to know that.
i understand that, but i see a lot of people having to look at picture of pretty artists first to actually listen to them. i find that sad. also it kinda makes me a little sad that this forum is almost only about VK artists. everytime someone posts a thread about a different kind of band it gets eaten up very quickly and only very few people make posts in it, while the VK threads stay up for a really long time.

But, it doesn't strike me that they are the kind of band who would churn out songs just for a market.
well their goal is to sell to the world isn't it? and in japan the record companies use their artists to make money, and the oversea is a good market. sadly i dont think the americans would appreciate their older style...

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 23:00

And? Point please and thank you? I don't like a lot of people, but you don't see me attempting to somehow use my amazing empathy ability to read their minds or something and then turn around and begin to poison others' thoughts on them.

If she doesn't like them anymore, then fine, sure, whatever. Everyone's allowed their own taste. However, she should just cease in the entire 'let's all tell everyone how crappy they are now! lyk hommigawdd!'. People still like them and it's horribly unfair towards them to hear pissy, little bitches like Kaiden constantly bring down their band(s) just because they changed (apparently kind of like always)...

i think she just have hard opinion on things and express them and backing her thought up. lets say, she's honest.

Diru is god, but really i think Gauze and Macabre were their finest albums. for their earlier stuff, especially Gauze, i like almost every single song. for their latest 2 albums, i only like half of the album, if not less.

Kinsao

Aug 31, 2005, 23:14

i understand that, but i see a lot of people having to look at picture of pretty artists first to actually listen to them. i find that sad. also it kinda makes me a little sad that this forum is almost only about VK artists. everytime someone posts a thread about a different kind of band it gets eaten up very quickly and only very few people make posts in it, while the VK threads stay up for a really long time.

Yes, there are an awful lot of threads about VK artists on here. Hmmm... *thinks* Maybe it's that the visuals are our kind of 'light relief' in some way? :? But, it is also true that people share their music as well as their pics.

I was trying to think of non-VK bands that I like. It's kind of difficult because I really don't think about the look of the band too much. I mean, I don't really think of Diru as VK... or MUCC... or Laruku... or Gackt... and Aushvitz I don't have a clue about because there's not many pics of them around! :blush: Jinkaku Radio aren't VK either, and I like them... except I have only a couple of songs... I can't find... :( I guess I find it hard to define VK... I mean, most bands dress in some kinds of interesting outfits... but that's all part of the marketing... in the same way that UK and US pop bands are supposed to look a certain way in order to look good and appeal to the right markets...

Which threads are you thinking of that got eaten btw? I'm curious... I'm probably missing things... -runs off to look-

I'm not so fussed about people who have to look at pics of pretty bands before they listen to them - I mean, it is one way of getting into the music, after all! And if it's good music, then, thank tha laawd they also look nice enough to attract people to listen! :relief: Hehe - I'll search out anything just if I hear or see a name somewhere, I think 'I wonder what they sound like?' and look for their stuff, that's my way of getting into bands... but with SID, I saw some pics and I was like 'I want to paint them!' and then I'm like 'maaan, you haven't even heard them! You have to hear them!' and so I found out I like their music.

well their goal is to sell to the world isn't it? and in japan the record companies use their artists to make money, and the oversea is a good market. sadly i dont think the americans would appreciate their older style...

Oh, it is a good point that you make... but I still don't see Diru as being manipulated and also so shallow as that. Maybe I am wrong and over-estimating their... what do you call it?... integrity? :? But I would like to think not.

The only reason their goal would be to sell to the whole world, would be to communicate through their music. (I don't think it would be to make money - I'm sure they already have enough of money now! I credit them with the more 'artistic' intention!) And so, if they are only creating music in a certain style for the market and not for their own communication, it is valueless to them to sell to the whole world even. Because they would not be communicating what they want to get across, but only some product they were manipulated into producing. And I don't think they are intending to do that.

I don't explain myself very well. :sorry:

mizerable_d

Aug 31, 2005, 23:40

Yes, there are an awful lot of threads about VK artists on here. Hmmm... *thinks* Maybe it's that the visuals are our kind of 'light relief' in some way? :? But, it is also true that people share their music as well as their pics.

I was trying to think of non-VK bands that I like. It's kind of difficult because I really don't think about the look of the band too much. I mean, I don't really think of Diru as VK... or MUCC... or Laruku... or Gackt... and Aushvitz I don't have a clue about because there's not many pics of them around! :blush: Jinkaku Radio aren't VK either, and I like them... except I have only a couple of songs... I can't find... :( I guess I find it hard to define VK... I mean, most bands dress in some kinds of interesting outfits... but that's all part of the marketing... in the same way that UK and US pop bands are supposed to look a certain way in order to look good and appeal to the right markets...

Which threads are you thinking of that got eaten btw? I'm curious... I'm probably missing things... -runs off to look-

I'm not so fussed about people who have to look at pics of pretty bands before they listen to them - I mean, it is one way of getting into the music, after all! And if it's good music, then, thank tha laawd they also look nice enough to attract people to listen! :relief: Hehe - I'll search out anything just if I hear or see a name somewhere, I think 'I wonder what they sound like?' and look for their stuff, that's my way of getting into bands... but with SID, I saw some pics and I was like 'I want to paint them!' and then I'm like 'maaan, you haven't even heard them! You have to hear them!' and so I found out I like their music.
i've tried to start some threads like GO!GO7188 and Fuji Fabric. they are not VK and very very few people relied to the post. no one is even interested in these guys although their music is SO good. but people are interested in VK bands, why? because of the pretty pictures.

Oh, it is a good point that you make... but I still don't see Diru as being manipulated and also so shallow as that. Maybe I am wrong and over-estimating their... what do you call it?... integrity? :? But I would like to think not.

The only reason their goal would be to sell to the whole world, would be to communicate through their music. (I don't think it would be to make money - I'm sure they already have enough of money now! I credit them with the more 'artistic' intention!) And so, if they are only creating music in a certain style for the market and not for their own communication, it is valueless to them to sell to the whole world even. Because they would not be communicating what they want to get across, but only some product they were manipulated into producing. And I don't think they are intending to do that.

I don't explain myself very well. :sorry:
Japanese record companies have a lot of control on their artists. never believe what message they appearantly send out.

Kinsao

Sep 1, 2005, 00:00

i've tried to start some threads like GO!GO7188 and Fuji Fabric. they are not VK and very very few people relied to the post.

oooohhh - I don't remember those :? I must go and look - I want to hear them if they're so good! :p

Japanese record companies have a lot of control on their artists. never believe what message they appearantly send out.

:o

ok, I consider myself instructed! So maybe Diru really are only puppets of record company... :clueless: oh well, I just listen... I don't have any full albums of theirs, so I can't say whether or not their songs begin to me to sound 'the same'...

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 00:17

oooohhh - I don't remember those :? I must go and look - I want to hear them if they're so good! :p

:o

ok, I consider myself instructed! So maybe Diru really are only puppets of record company... :clueless: oh well, I just listen... I don't have any full albums of theirs, so I can't say whether or not their songs begin to me to sound 'the same'...
if i remember correctly, you posted in the GOGO7188 one...

i dont think Diru are complete "puppets", but the company has definatly got some power on them. plus the company also wants Diru to sell, as im sure Diru want that as well. if they don't sell, they get dropped.

Kinsao

Sep 1, 2005, 00:27

Wow - I've just been back 11 pages only - :o so many good threads get left behind here. :( There was all sorts... someone started a thread on LaCryma Christie, and I was thinking of starting one on them because I'm looking for their stuff and I haven't found any. :(

Well, lots of visual threads which looked promising also got left behind, too... :worried:

Yay - I found the origin of jrocker cookies! :happy:

Hmm... I found the Fuji Fabric thread, which I had posted in! - but I couldn't find GOGO7188 thread :? I said I would look for Fuji Fabric... the hunt is on... four minutes to hometime! *puts on running shoes* :p

Sure I know bands are controlled bigtime by their record companies... it happens all over the place. :( I am not so naive but I still wish it to not be the case. :kanashii:

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 00:40

Sure I know bands are controlled bigtime by their record companies... it happens all over the place. :( I am not so naive but I still wish it to not be the case. :kanashii:
i know it happenes everywhere, just more extreme in asia.

Fuji Fabric stuff is hard to find T_T i've only found 2 songs so far. i need to learn how to use slsk.

Kinsao

Sep 1, 2005, 01:42

Aww... I looked on slsk just now but couldn't find anything at all. :( Still, maybe some day if I persevere........!
I used to use winmx but it causes Brian to have viruses. :sick:

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 01:44

ooo... i cant use slsk for ****. im too lazy to try to figure it out.

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 02:37

Dir en grey have been around for a long time. They have a HUGE list of songs. When they go on tour, they generally play the most recent songs that they've released. In order to promote those songs, doesn't it make sense? The people going to their lives now (generally) like the newer songs, so why would they play all the old stuff?It was their 5 days concert thing. They had a day for every album they had out. Playing old favorites and the like.
And how does she know that they don't care about their old songs anymore?Have you ever gone in to some store or something and just KNOWN the people who work there don't want to be there. And they'll do their damndest not to do anything. It's kinda the vibe they were giving off. But hay, if you can't take that it's my opinion, go right ahead and flip out. I give you my permission. <3
You were implying she liked the looks possibly more than the music however...Can you blame her! I mean...have you ever seen Asparagus' vocalist? ******* HAWT! Jesus. Who wouldn't go for him. ;D (/sarcasm)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/iknowmore/likea.jpg
People still like them and it's horribly unfair towards them to hear pissy, little bitches like Kaiden constantly bring down their band(s) just because they changed (apparently kind of like always)...Sorry...my name is Kaidan. Two A's. Sounds nothing like Kaiden. I don't understand how everyone seems to fail that. Anyway, who cares if I diss the band. Public domain. I can state my opinion on them all I want. Get over it. :heart:

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 02:42

O: Kaidan has landed...with her hearts!

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 02:44

O: Kaidan has landed...with her hearts!I blame you. <3

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 02:46

I blame you. <3
but only if you come, this thread wont die off, but get more interesting!<3

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 02:49

but only if you come, this thread wont die off, but get more interesting!<3You know, I think I've been here before.

But if I have, I can't remember the username I used. Have any of you run into a Chairman Mao?

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 02:51

You know, I think I've been here before.

But if I have, I can't remember the username I used. Have any of you run into a Chairman Mao?
...when was this? i only got on here last summer.

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 02:52

*shrugs*

It just looks familliar.

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 02:56

So anyway, I hate this post now. It got me thinking about Asparagus and how much I like their music.....AND NOW I CAN'T FIND MY CDS! SPITE.

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 03:01

So anyway, I hate this post now. It got me thinking about Asparagus and how much I like their music.....AND NOW I CAN'T FIND MY CDS! SPITE.
o: thats not good.... i was hoping you can share...

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 03:15

Hah. Done.

I'll send with all you other people who aren't posting, too. Happy day.
Asparagus - Like a Dead (http://s27.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1LR0QGSTI2I0J23TWIUX6E2ARY)

Kinsao

Sep 1, 2005, 05:22

Hey thanks much, Kaidan! :cool:

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 06:26

i think she just have hard opinion on things and express them and backing her thought up. lets say, she's honest.

And yet I again I must ask 'and'? I have an extremely 'hard' (as you put it) opinion and I simply adore expressing them and backing up my opinion and I'm honest as well, brutally so. And, yet, still, I'm not going around, dissing a band just 'cause they changed, not to mention, again, talking as if I actually know what they're going through and what thoughts are racing through their little heads! :p

Have you ever gone in to some store or something and just KNOWN the people who work there don't want to be there. And they'll do their damndest not to do anything. It's kinda the vibe they were giving off. But hay, if you can't take that it's my opinion, go right ahead and flip out. I give you my permission. <3
You go by a vibe? A feeling? I'm not even going to comment on this one really... :souka:

Can you blame her! I mean...have you ever seen Asparagus' vocalist? ******* HAWT! Jesus. Who wouldn't go for him. ;D (/sarcasm)
I'm now going to proceed to roll my eyes...

Sorry...my name is Kaidan. Two A's. Sounds nothing like Kaiden. I don't understand how everyone seems to fail that. Anyway, who cares if I diss the band. Public domain. I can state my opinion on them all I want. Get over it. :heart:

Ohhh...I misspelled it by one, single letter! lyk ohmigawd! 'Tis the completely and utter end of the world! The horsemen are coming! Run for your very souls!

And I don't seem to understand why people always go all like "get over it" when there is nothing to get over. I don't particularly care much to say the ultimate, very least, although good try anyway! :cool:

Furik

Sep 1, 2005, 06:27

While visual is nice, I believe it all depends on the person. Music is the most important aspect of creating a good band. Visual might come second, and lyrics become third. Or maybe that's the other way around.. visual might be third. I know a lot of good bands who are great and are loved and their looks are the last thing to worry about.

SaKeVi

Sep 1, 2005, 07:13

Hell yeah, what a fight! :cool:

Hmmm, maybe we all here know that VK isn't even a music style, is just a damn fashion all around japanese music since Mana dressed up like a drag queen years ago... then everybody saw the $$$ (or ･･･??) and tried to copy him, and now we have hundreds of BAD bands that sell only a stupid image instead of their music, and this bands just block away the good bands, like VK threads on this forum eat up another good or interesting threads, hahahahaha. :-)

Damn it, where are bands like Murbas and Visual Violence?? if they were born again, surely they will die at the moment they see what happened to the Visual style they tried to create for Japan.

DeG is not the same, maybe mainstream changed them, but sometimes it looks like they don't care about what they are doing anymore, you can see it on the music quality of every album (and even singles) they've released.

It isn't also a brainwash or a boicot to say that DeG has changed for bad, it is just an opinion like all of you (we) have, and if some people can't get it in their head, is useless to be discussing here.

See ya!!

@Demon: I haven't opened slsk for a while (as you can see) because I'm again at school, also, if you need some live tapes from Framtid or another bands, I'll try to upload them to my computer, I have lots of cassete tapes but I don't know how to convert them into mp3, hahahaha. Help?? :?

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 07:22

DeG is not the same, maybe mainstream changed them, but sometimes it looks like they don't care about what they are doing anymore, you can see it on the music quality of every album (and even singles) they've released.

Looks can sure as Hell be horribly and bloody deceiving! :p

SaKeVi

Sep 1, 2005, 07:36

Looks can sure as Hell be horribly and bloody deceiving! :p

Ok.

They HAVE diminished its musical quality... happy now?? :souka:

furan

Sep 1, 2005, 07:39

well.....

before i was into Jrock... i was into lke, metal and such.... and.... they weren't too pretty.... BUT i loved them VERY much... infact, i coudn't go a day without listening to my current 'omigo-obsession' album...

but i was never cutie a obsessed with them as i am with Pura and Kagrra,...
i don't know... it was my love for their music... i wanted to read abut what inspires them... i wanted to know they were... like, really inspired by their music...
lol, i cried when i found an interview with Kagrra, that spoke about every song on Kirameki and just how they wrote it... it as the greatest thing i've ever read :relief:

i thin the visual is so much an expression about who a person is... it's very much the same in the metal industry.... a lot of people hate Marilyn Manson because of his image (which is actaully noteded as VK by the SHOXX magazine... o.O)... and never give his music the chance...

but if ou were to hear a hard cor metal band with heavey screamin and such... yet... the people in the band were the planest looking people in the world... you may be slightly put off....
it's the image of our idols that inspires our own...

i think it's gret that we have Kaiden in on this topic... makes the discution a lot more fair...
and... i agred with a lot of what she said... but... we're all entitled to our won opinions... and our own right to express them...

.... of CAUSE we all tke part in our 'omigod they're so ******* hott' talk... and we play around... it would be STUPID for us to ignor the fact that they're beautiful...
but it makes me sad that... i feel i've coem to love some of these bands SO much that i don't think my head would be able to handle it if i actually saw them (but that's because i have my own psychological problems)

there are plenty of bands i love that i haev no IDEA what they look like.... but i don;t know.... maybe i do love Kagrra, more beause i love the guys.... but i think that's a whole... i love their music... and the greatness of their music reflects the closness in the band... and learnig about them, helps me understand the music...
music's been my life since... forever...

ARGH! *head explodes*
this is making me all dizzy :mad:

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 07:41

Ok.

They HAVE diminished its musical quality... happy now?? :souka:

I wouldn't know. I don't know what songs are on each album actually. However, everything I've listened to, I have liked at least a little bit and I'm horribly picky, so ehhh... :relief:

hebiichigo

Sep 1, 2005, 07:43

It was their 5 days concert thing. They had a day for every album they had out. Playing old favorites and the like.

Just for the record, I wasn't talking about 5 Days.. I was replying as to why they don't play the old songs anymore usually. I've never seen the 5 Days thing so I can't comment. Once again not sure why people are quoting me :okashii:

SaKeVi

Sep 1, 2005, 07:58

I wouldn't know. I don't know what songs are on each album actually. However, everything I've listened to, I have liked at least a little bit and I'm horribly picky, so ehhh... :relief:

that's interesting... :cool:

I had a picky friend too, and she preferred BackStreetBoys instead of Ahmad Jamal trio :blush: I hope you not to be this kind of picky :-)

See you!

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 08:02

I have no idea who Ahmad Jamal Trio is or whatever...:souka: But very few things are worst than the Backstreet Boys...-shudders-

SaKeVi

Sep 1, 2005, 08:11

He is one of the best jazz musicians ever.

But what can we do... :?

furan

Sep 1, 2005, 08:13

Ahmad Jamal Trio...... i think i saw them live.......

or... i wanted to but didn't get the chance *is confused*

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 08:17

He is one of the best jazz musicians ever.

But what can we do... :?

I'm not into Jazz. However, I'd probably listen to him for as long as my life continues if it came between him and someone like the Backstreet Boys...-shudders again- :(

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 08:22

You go by a vibe? A feeling? I'm not even going to comment on this one really... :souka: When you're in a good live, it's not like watching a video. There's excitement. You can feel it from the audience. You can feel it from the band. I know I'm sounding like a pathetically loopy ****, but there's honestly a vibe you feel at a good concert. That wasn't there for the 5days. There was just a feeling of not wanting to be there that was felt by all. But hay, if concert going for you is like watching it on dvd, then sux for you. <3Ohhh...I misspelled it by one, single letter! lyk ohmigawd! 'Tis the completely and utter end of the world! The horsemen are coming! Run for your very souls! It wouldn't bother me so much if every idiot with their thumb up their butt didn't do it. It causes problems sometimes, such as another forum I'm on which has a user named "Kaiden" who ends up getting mail meant for me. I understand illiteracy is rampant, but we shouldn't all just settle for complacency.And I don't seem to understand why people always go all like "get over it" when there is nothing to get over. I don't particularly care much to say the ultimate, very least, although good try anyway! :cool:If you didn't particularly care much, why are you making such a stink about it. Are we trying to be contrary here or just non sequitur?

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 08:23

Just for the record, I wasn't talking about 5 Days.. I was replying as to why they don't play the old songs anymore usually. I've never seen the 5 Days thing so I can't comment. Once again not sure why people are quoting me :okashii:Ah, I see. I just quoted you as I thought you were saying that in reference to what I was talking about. XD

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 08:29

When you're in a good live, it's not like watching a video. There's excitement. You can feel it from the audience. You can feel it from the band. I know I'm sounding like a pathetically loopy ****, but there's honestly a vibe you feel at a good concert. That wasn't there for the 5days. There was just a feeling of not wanting to be there that was felt by all. But hay, if concert going for you is like watching it on dvd, then sux for you. <3

Perhaps then, they had another reason for it? I'm not saying that's the case, however, it's not particularly right to just assume things like that. Now, if every single live they now perform is like that then, perhaps, your accusations would have a bit more to go on. However, if you're only going by one live...

It wouldn't bother me so much if every idiot with their thumb up their butt didn't do it. It causes problems sometimes, such as another forum I'm on which has a user named "Kaiden" who ends up getting mail meant for me. I understand illiteracy is rampant, but we shouldn't all just settle for complacency.

Oh...I see. I did see "E" though for some reason... :?

If you didn't particularly care much, why are you making such a stink about it. Are we trying to be contrary here or just non sequitur?

Because this is a discussion and I'm just expressing my opinion like everyone else is pretty much? :p

Kaidan

Sep 1, 2005, 08:39

Perhaps then, they had another reason for it? I'm not saying that's the case, however, it's not particularly right to just assume things like that. Now, if every single live they now perform is like that then, perhaps, your accusations would have a bit more to go on. However, if you're only going by one live...I was referring to their not wanting to play old songs when I said that. If they ever played any of their old songs any more, I would've thought it was a fluke, too. But the fact is that they don't. And their newer songs are lacking quite a bit of the old innovation they used to show. Even when they were mostly a Kuroyume copy band.
Because this is a discussion and I'm just expressing my opinion like everyone else is pretty much? :pThen you DO care what's said in this thread. And you WERE just trying to be contrary.

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 08:48

Oh...Well, again, they could have just changed to the point where they no longer think it's appropriate for them to perform those songs anymore? Again, you can't really know why they do something...

And...Errr...:souka: Whatever you say then...:souka:

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 10:03

And yet I again I must ask 'and'? I have an extremely 'hard' (as you put it) opinion and I simply adore expressing them and backing up my opinion and I'm honest as well, brutally so. And, yet, still, I'm not going around, dissing a band just 'cause they changed, not to mention, again, talking as if I actually know what they're going through and what thoughts are racing through their little heads! :p
i dont think she is dissing them. if she was, i'd be trying my hardest to kick her ***.

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 10:04

Ahhh...But it seems quite a bit like that's exactly what she's doing...

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 10:10

i think she just have a negative opinion of Diru's new stuff. she's not dissing them as in "omg they suck so bad. they have no talent, they are ugly, and stupid and..." the likes. also she used to be a fan.

Kinsao

Sep 1, 2005, 15:28

ummm... what about those people here who saw Diru in Paris in July. What do they think about their live performance now? From their set list I think I remember seeing they played some of their older stuff? (is that right?) :? Do you think their skill level has gone down, or not? How was the atmosphere you got from the live?

I feel like I can't really get in on this discussion much because I don't have enough of their stuff to really compare... I have quite a lot of songs (nearly all of which I like), but usually I have no clue which album they are from or which order it comes in the discography - I'm hopeless at stuff like that. :bluush:

EDIT: I found something Mana said in an interview of Moi dix Mois, I thought it was interesting in relation to this thread, he says:

"There isn't only the music. There is also the visual side, our universe. It痴 really sad if they only like the music. If you for example, look at the CD's picture you share this universe that you just can't download. I wish that people could love our entire universe."

For me personally, the music always comes first. But Mana also has a point. And, it's interesting to me to get a slant on the way a musician sees it...

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 21:58

ummm... what about those people here who saw Diru in Paris in July. What do they think about their live performance now? From their set list I think I remember seeing they played some of their older stuff? (is that right?) :? Do you think their skill level has gone down, or not? How was the atmosphere you got from the live?

what i believe is that their skills with their insturments and voices have gone up, but their composing skills have gone down. or they are just not using their compsing skills properly.

EDIT: I found something Mana said in an interview of Moi dix Mois, I thought it was interesting in relation to this thread, he says:

"There isn't only the music. There is also the visual side, our universe. It痴 really sad if they only like the music. If you for example, look at the CD's picture you share this universe that you just can't download. I wish that people could love our entire universe."

For me personally, the music always comes first. But Mana also has a point. And, it's interesting to me to get a slant on the way a musician sees it...
visuals is always a bonus. i mean if you go see a live show, the visuals keep your eyes interested and the music keeps your ears interested. i like that.

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 22:00

what i believe is that their skills with their insturments and voices have gone up, but their composing skills have gone down. or they are just not using their compsing skills properly.

Or maybe, just maybe, they're doing what they wanna do? lyk ohmigawd!

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 22:04

Or maybe, just maybe, they're doing what they wanna do? lyk ohmigawd!
thats what i meant by them trying to sell to America. :D see a lot of western numetal lack serious composing. they are following along so the lame numetal kids can head bang to it.

Edit: whats with that last part...

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 22:05

They could be, yes...Or, again, maybe it's just how they want to do it.

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 22:08

could be. *goes off to a corner to cry* i guess i'll always have Gauze and Macabre... OR they COULD make their new album really kick ***. but from the sound of Clever Sleazoid, it's going to be one of those albums again.

Horizon

Sep 1, 2005, 22:11

Who knows...Perhaps they're saving up everything for something really amazing, ne, ne? :D

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 22:32

Who knows...Perhaps they're saving up everything for something really amazing, ne, ne? :D
Horizon i heart you! you always make me feel better about stuff! <333

Dollporn

Sep 1, 2005, 23:26

I wasn't in Paris, but I was in Berlin. I'll agree that Dirus skills have gone up but their creativity has gone down.
I don't see at all how Withering sounds like Vulgar, but I don hear how Withering sounds like other things(What I mean is I don't think this album is as unique as the earlier ones).
They played almost all of Vulgar at the concert and there was a very good feeling in the audience(Thankfully it was a standing concert!). But later I can't shake the fear that this might feel as a routine to the band and in any way not as special as it was to the audience.
I can also understand people being being a bit dissapointed in Diru. I like Withering, I do, but it's like they're tipping off in the opposite direction of my tastes(Anyway if that's what they want to do they should, only I probably won't be listening to them anymore).
I feel I sound like I hate Diru, I don't! They're my favourite band! I'm just a bit sad I might not like their new music.
I have to say it's very true about nobody starting to diss them untill they changed their image.
I think maybe they just found themselves at a point where they didn't feel well dressing up flashy anymore, I mean they're around 30 now.
And if you look at it, it seems they IMAGEWISE are doing what they like. Kyo still does quite a visual act, Toshiya does the fashoin thing, Kaoru does the suit, because that's what he's into.

mizerable_d

Sep 1, 2005, 23:39

Horizon

Sep 2, 2005, 03:27

Horizon i heart you! you always make me feel better about stuff! <333

No problem...? :relief:

Kinsao

Sep 3, 2005, 00:12

jeez thread disappear so damn fast on this thing! :o
Anyway, I just felt like taking a random prod at anyone who thinks too many people like bands just for their looks :okashii: I present Yuana from Kagerou, they are a damn good band. :lol:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a227/spikedriver8/yuana11.jpg

kairi~vs~rinoa

Sep 3, 2005, 02:47

i'm confused about that picture kinsao, is he meant to look bad in the visual but still play good or, is he meant to look good and still play good music... not saying he doesn't of cors! cause he does!!

Horizon

Sep 3, 2005, 02:51

He looks absolutely horrid...So, ehhhh...Yeah...:relief:

kairi~vs~rinoa

Sep 3, 2005, 03:20

is it wrong of me to think he doesn't look horrid in that outfit? :blush:
and do you think he looks horrid all the time? or just in that picture...
i think he looks good in a suit
http://www.hard-manga.de/news/neotokyo/Yuanaguitar_1.jpg
and i think he has nice legs too...
http://www.jahanna.net/urami/images/kageHP2.jpg

Horizon

Sep 3, 2005, 03:21

Don't know. Haven't seen him much. However, he doesn't appear to be among the most gorgeous of JRockers...:souka:

Kinsao

Sep 3, 2005, 03:21

Yeah, Horizon, you have it right.
Yuana is absolutely NOT good-looking, although there are a number of pics where he's kind of made to look cute.
But their music still kicks ***. :-) And plenty of people love 'em.

kairi~vs~rinoa

Sep 3, 2005, 03:22

before i get pounced on for posting pictures and commenting on how i like the visuals of a jrocker in this thread then kagerou have great music and i like them even if they were to dress in potato sacks and eat out of bins all day....

Horizon

Sep 3, 2005, 03:30

Kinsao

Sep 3, 2005, 03:32

kairi~vs~rinoa

Sep 3, 2005, 04:07

i find strange people good looking, its a habit of mine lol. i find robin williams attractive and apparently he's not (who constantly mock me for it). and yes we do *smiles* but some people may think we don't, grr.
back to the discussion, i think maybe that diru have changed their look slightly because there are becoming more hardrocker teenagers these days ('goths' or whatever you call the black-wearing-satan-worshipping groups of people for example) and this is an important age group in the music industry. or, diru may have just simply 'grown out' of the vk stuff. not in a puberty kinda way, just that they simply prefer to dress how they currently are nowadays.
also, the west doesn't really have male artists that dress up the vk way so america may just see it as 'drag queens' or the like. which may not be good for diru's reputation when they come more and more into western countries.

the people that immediately switch off to vk bands before listening to them are quite selfish i think. just because you don't like the look of them your willing to throw them out the window? pffft. i didn't quite like the look of Road of Major when i first saw them but i took the chance and downloaded a song of theirs and now i can't get enough of them! and their looks are growing on me too! instead of the first impressions of one of them being chubby and one of them looking creepy with the frame of jack skeleton off nightmare before christmas, its now 'squeezable' and more 'woody off toy story'. so i think that shows that its not all about visuals. but this is certainly becoming an interesting thread, keep the opinions coming!

furan

Sep 3, 2005, 05:41

err..... Yuuana.... can be EXCEDINGLY gogeous btw.... i don;t have any pictures.... but he looks VERY good in traditional visual....

i just wanna bring a point into this thread...

*ehem(*

Alice Nine... i believe they are a PERFECT example of 'is it all abut the visual'

ofcause, i can't comment because i heared their music BEFORE i saw them... and liked their music enough to look them up... but i think if it had been the other way arround... i would have been dissapointed...

also... i'm sure a LOT of people would look at Art School or even Jinkaku Radio, and think.... not interested... but they are two od my all time favorit bands EVER.....

Jinkaku Radio are so talented it should be like... illegale or something (especailly hen there's just the 2 of them... the other 2 members are just support... so Naoki and Yuukie write EVERYTHING)

Kinsao

Sep 3, 2005, 05:49

Hey :wave: I'm downloading a Jinkaku Radio from torrent right now! eeee! :happy: :silly: I'm ridiculously excited - I only have those 2 songs you sent me, Furan.

I already commented about Alice Nine in the 'prettiest' thread... I never heard them yet... but a lot of people seem to think the same about them.......

but... there are a ton of bands and musicians popular that aren't visual... Laruku aren't visual... and Gackt... and MUCC ( :? )... and Diru no more...

to be honest, I think threads about individual bands always sink quicker than 'general' threads like 'prettiest' or whatever... simply because they are more limited... and if you don't know and/or like the band you don't tend to post much comments...

I mean... there are threads about visual bands that also disappeared pretty quickly... like pk's Mar'derayla one... she pulled that back up... but it's hard to find their stuff... so the interest drops.

I think I said the same sort of thing before here, but better. :sorry:

Oh, and I have to say... awwww... Yuana... I posted some pics of him in the Kagerou thread where he looks exceedingly cute...... and one of them that makes me dissolve... I am not saying he's ugly.... but he is not I mean classically VK 'good-looking'. I mean to say, I find strange people good-looking............... holy ****! - I've just realised my bf looks scarily like Yuana....... :shock:

I'll shut up now. :bluush:

furan

Sep 3, 2005, 10:53

lol
aww, i'm glad you found more Jinkaku ^.^

my Kagrra, thread sank right away... there were... em... 2 posts made... and it just whent *blows rasberry*

it wasn't untill a LOT of obsessing and manic posting on the 'pritties' thread, and sending random albums to verious people who became kinda interested that i got them to a stage where i thought people would partisapate in their thread....

(ofcause it's sitting on the second page right now... :okashii:

hebiichigo

Sep 3, 2005, 14:48

I think Yuana looks good :souka:
I haven't listened to Kagerou for ages though.. I just have some tapes that a Japanese girl made for me :lol: But I kinda lost interest in them a while ago.

Gackt may not be visual anymore but we can hardly say that he isn't popular for his "looks"... :relief:

And where is the Kra thread?! WHERE IS THAT NOW, I ASK YOU! *goes psycho*

Anyways. This is one of my favourite bands, Janne Da Arc:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/asukaboogie/jda2.jpg
They're not all that good looking, but their music is really good :haihai:
(although maybe not so much lately :() And they've been around for quiet some time, but are still kinda unknown to a lot of people... :souka: I always get the feeling it's because they're not all pretty, so people don't give them a go.. :okashii:

Kinsao

Sep 3, 2005, 19:43

I've tried Janne da Arc, but I only got one song of them. :( I... kinda liked the song... but it didn't, like, make me fall over with its amazingness... if you know what I mean... I really need to hear more of their music before I can tell... I mean, when I listened to my first song of Diru I didn't like the song much... so I left it far too late before I listened to their other, fantastic songs :relief: Mustn't make that mistake again! :bluush: But... lol, yeah, Janne da Arc is just one of those bands that seem to get stuck on my "to find" list... :(

:souka: People like Aushvitz, and they aren't really 'pretty'...

The one on the right has a nice smile. It makes me want to smile, too! :-)

Horizon

Sep 3, 2005, 21:12

I have a couple of Janne Da Arc (isn't that improper French by the way...?) PVs and, from what I can tell, they're amazing. I just don't have anymore of their stuff is all...

My problem is always that I just don't hear about a band or I just don't have enough. -pouts-

hebiichigo

Sep 3, 2005, 22:26

Well.. if either of you want, I can upload their stuff. I don't have all their CDs on my computer... but most of them :p

Janne seems to hide their really great songs inside their albums and don't release them as singles... I don't know.. It's like most of their singles are the really 'pop' songs.
Although.. I was a bit disappointed in their last album (I didn't even buy it yet :eek: )
My fave album is GAIA :haihai:

I don't know about their name :souka: I think it's supposed to mean "joan of arc" :?

Horizon

Sep 3, 2005, 22:35

I feel guilty when I upload MP3's, so, yeah...:relief:

Thanks for the offer though.

As for their name, I thought that, in French, vowels aren't allowed to be, errrr...'Together'?

For example, L'Arc~en~Ciel. It's technically Le Arc en Ciel, but that's improper because 'le' ends with a vowel and 'arc' starts with one, so the 'E' gets replace by the coma-thingie. So, shouldn't Janne Da Arc, be Janne D'Arc? :souka:

Kinsao

Sep 3, 2005, 22:40

In French, Joan of Arc is "Jeanne d'Arc" in fact. :clueless:

ooooo, it would be nice if you could upload some good songs by them - I only have Paradise. :p

hebiichigo

Sep 3, 2005, 22:40

Well.. I don't know French at all.. so yeah..
But when written in Japanese katakana it's written like "Jannu Daruku".. which sounds like a more correct way? But it's printed on a lot of their CDs in roman letters like "Janne Da Arc".

Oh and.. I will upload some stuff soon :p

Kinsao

Sep 3, 2005, 22:43

Thanks so much! :bow:

Maybe it's just a bad romajification, then... :? In fact, there is no French word "da" (used in this way...)

Horizon

Sep 3, 2005, 22:44

Oh...I see...:?

hebiichigo

Sep 3, 2005, 22:47

Yeah, I think so... Or perhaps they had to change the spelling for copyright or some reason like that..

just a note about the uploads... some of the songs may be in .m4a format which some people had trouble playing when I uploaded songs before.. is it ok for you?

hebiichigo

Sep 4, 2005, 12:25

OK I upped quite a few Janne songs :D
I think my question about the format has gone unnoticed so if you can't play 'em bad luck :p

Dry? (http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2EWN91ATRZHFJ04OE04EPF8913)
GAIA (http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1U1I5P1O7WKL91C4K4CI5PXF08)
Phantom (http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=38114NCVKEYL834CMBALVGX7LA)
Diamond Virgin (http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2GO95I7RNKPDV3ISW7J18TNWL0)
HELL or HEAVEN ~itoshi no Psycho Breaker~ (http://s20.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=31WRT1H2GYBZR3H0Z01BJNPUS7)
Love is Here (http://s20.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=30R8OTSIOTPCW2MWTZ989QOJAP)
FREEDOM (http://s20.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=16PGPL8I8EA481G9RLY528RDZV)

Just yell at me if they don't work.. or if you don't like them :(

:p

Horizon

Sep 4, 2005, 19:40

And why would someone yell at you for them not liking them...? o.0?

hebiichigo

Sep 4, 2005, 19:46

I was kidding.. :okashii:

Horizon

Sep 4, 2005, 19:49

Oh...I'm stupid...:(

Leave me alone! -hides away- :bawling:

hebiichigo

Sep 4, 2005, 19:55

:eek:
no no nooo! xD
you're not stupid, I just don't make any sense :p

Horizon

Sep 4, 2005, 20:01

Meh...Could have been the fact that, at the time, I had just gotten up half an hour ago...:relief:

mizerable_d

Sep 5, 2005, 01:03

what happened to this thread? oh ya Kaidan never came back. grr to her.

Kinsao

Sep 5, 2005, 01:07

It's strange - I hear a lot of talk moaning about fans who only like bands for the visuals, but guess what? I've yet to actually find a person who really is like that...

mizerable_d

Sep 5, 2005, 01:51

It's strange - I hear a lot of talk moaning about fans who only like bands for the visuals, but guess what? I've yet to actually find a person who really is like that...
i dont think they ONLY like the visuals. but i have met people who listen to the music only because they like the visuals, while the song is pretty much crap.

furan

Sep 5, 2005, 02:10

yeah... they listen to the music still... and they go on and on and on about it.... but.... in all reality. they're only listening to it BECAUSE the band's cute, and... yeah...

like, haven't you noticed that there are a LOT of fans out there who, say... listen to.... Gazette... but would otherwise never go near that kind of music...
and when they do listen to it... they only listen to the really mllow one's... and anctually don;t care much for the others....

GAH! thank's for the Janne da Arc Hebi! *huggles*
i've seen them arround and always wondered what they wee like... but i never heared anyone ever talking about them... so i presumed that... there wasn't anything really to talk about... as that should be the case with all bands...
(...but then, that's what this thread's all about....)

SaKeVi

Sep 10, 2005, 08:34

EDIT: I found something Mana said in an interview of Moi dix Mois, I thought it was interesting in relation to this thread, he says:

"There isn't only the music. There is also the visual side, our universe. It痴 really sad if they only like the music. If you for example, look at the CD's picture you share this universe that you just can't download. I wish that people could love our entire universe."

For me personally, the music always comes first. But Mana also has a point. And, it's interesting to me to get a slant on the way a musician sees it...

That's why circus are for :-) we are back again to what I said on drummers topic, if he wants to be a model, that's fine, but it sucks when he IS a model and pretends to be a musician... well, not a model, maybe a Drag Queen.

Do you consider Mana as a musician??? hmmmm :okashii:

It's strange - I hear a lot of talk moaning about fans who only like bands for the visuals, but guess what? I've yet to actually find a person who really is like that...

If you come to Mexico, I can introduce you at least 5 girls who are like that... and I'm not kidding, they are annoying, you're lucky you haven't found fans like this.

See ya!

kairi~vs~rinoa

Sep 10, 2005, 20:47

Do you consider Mana as a musician??? hmmmm :okashii:

well considering that he plays a musical instrument i'd say yes to that one. isn't that what musicians do? play instruments? or is my whole outlook on this wrong....

Kinsao

Sep 10, 2005, 20:56

It's interesting what you say!

Do you consider Mana as a musician??? hmmmm :okashii:

Yes, I do consider Mana as a musician - up to a point. I have reason: he plays the guitar and writes songs, so, the way I see it, he is a musician. Maybe you don't think he is a good musician? :? Personally, I think he is a quite good musician, but not one of the very best out there. *gets attacked by rabid Mana fans*

But when I say "up to a point", I mean that Mana is not only a musician, but he is also a businessman, and a showman. And I think that shows in the quotation from him. The fact is, that it is not just the music that is important to him, but the whole image. So to me, "Mana" is about more than "musician". And that is his choice; the way he feels most comfortable to work. Me, I like to listen to the music and I am not that bothered about all the other stuff that goes with it. I can admire that Mana is good at the "image" and the "entire universe", but I can't relate to that so easily as I can to purely the sound. That is why I don't consider him as one of the best musicians, although he is surely one of the best businessmen in jrock! :blush:

If you come to Mexico, I can introduce you at least 5 girls who are like that... and I'm not kidding, they are annoying, you're lucky you haven't found fans like this.

Yep, that does sound annoying. I hope I never run across too many fans like that! I really think they must be a little deficient in the brain area - either that or they are perhaps tone deaf or something... :bluush:

kairi~vs~rinoa

Sep 10, 2005, 21:16

well said kinsao, i agree on the mana topic there.
i'm half and half on the fangirl subject. i'm ok with them if they like someone for their looks but don't like their music (its their choice not to and their opinion). take me for example, i find the oriental guy in smashing pumpkins attractive but i'm not too keen on their music.
but fangirls can take it too far and start foaming at the mouth over someones looks and claiming to know all about them when they clearly don't. thats what i don't like. the repeated "waaa i love you! so kawaii! *dribbles*"
anyone can find certain people attractive or visually pleasing, but it all depends on what you do with it that determines if you are a fangirl or just simply a fan.

SaKeVi

Sep 11, 2005, 06:17

Yikes!!

Maybe I didn't express myself correctly, as Kinsao let me knew on her post. :p

well considering that he plays a musical instrument i'd say yes to that one. isn't that what musicians do? play instruments? or is my whole outlook on this wrong....

You're right on your perception; however, I've seen dogs playing piano on TV blooper shows, I wonder if we can consider them too as musicians hehehe :-)

Yes, I do consider Mana as a musician - up to a point. I have reason: he plays the guitar and writes songs, so, the way I see it, he is a musician. Maybe you don't think he is a good musician? Personally, I think he is a quite good musician, but not one of the very best out there. *gets attacked by rabid Mana fans*

I give you the reason here, but you're right, I don't consider Mana as a good musician (see the dogs comparison above :p )

But when I say "up to a point", I mean that Mana is not only a musician, but he is also a businessman, and a showman. And I think that shows in the quotation from him. The fact is, that it is not just the music that is important to him, but the whole image. So to me, "Mana" is about more than "musician". And that is his choice; the way he feels most comfortable to work.

I think that we have the disagreement right here, I'm a musician (a bad musician, I have to admit it :relief:) and I have my personal opinions about how a band should behave on stage... in the end, the only thing you expect from a MUSIC BAND is to play music, not to convert the place on a fashion stage... I was horrified when I saw his shows, you know, the fanservice they give (kisses, touching each other...) and dissapointed to see that a MUSIC band is more recognized because of their looks than their music.

I'm not saying also that the band image doesn't matter, but when that comes first than music, I can't consider that musicians or a band.

I don't know if you understand me, sorry.

Yep, that does sound annoying. I hope I never run across too many fans like that! I really think they must be a little deficient in the brain area - either that or they are perhaps tone deaf or something...

Hehehehe, Iｴm glad that I haven't seen girls like this here. :cool: well, far now ^^

Ok, see you later!!

Horizon

Sep 11, 2005, 18:52

You're right on your perception; however, I've seen dogs playing piano on TV blooper shows, I wonder if we can consider them too as musicians hehehe :-)

I love it when humans assume animals are stupid! :p

Kinsao

Sep 11, 2005, 22:43

I don't consider Mana as a good musician

Well, fair enough! As I said, although I do quite like his music, I don't consider him as one of the best musicians, so... your opinion is of course as valid as anyone else's! :p

in the end, the only thing you expect from a MUSIC BAND is to play music, not to convert the place on a fashion stage... I was horrified when I saw his shows, you know, the fanservice they give (kisses, touching each other...) and dissapointed to see that a MUSIC band is more recognized because of their looks than their music.

I'm not saying also that the band image doesn't matter, but when that comes first than music, I can't consider that musicians or a band.

Actually, in that, too, I think we are agreeing with each other in fact. I certainly think that for a band, their music should always be first, most important. Where I would differ is that you say you can't consider them as musicians at all if they put their image before the music. I would still consider them as musicians, but I would continue to judge their music on its own quality, leaving the image/appearance out of the equation. So, I might (depending on the band!) come to the conclusion that they are a group of bad musicians with a nice stage show. :blush: I would still call them "musicians", but simply sigh and say to myself, "they're crap!"

Disclaimer: I don't mean to refer to Moi dix Mois even though my original quotation was from Mana. I mean my comment generally.

SaKeVi

Sep 12, 2005, 08:32

I love it when humans assume animals are stupid! :p

I love it when people say things I've never said... :p

Where I would differ is that you say you can't consider them as musicians at all if they put their image before the music. I would still consider them as musicians, but I would continue to judge their music on its own quality, leaving the image/appearance out of the equation. So, I might (depending on the band!) come to the conclusion that they are a group of bad musicians with a nice stage show. I would still call them "musicians", but simply sigh and say to myself, "they're crap!"

Hahahaha, good point, but well... I still consider him not a (good) musician, because his purpose was to sell his image, not his music, am I wrong?? I just can't accept that as an example of what a musician does.

Anyways, I guess they might have more success if they just make a performance on the stage, with pre-recorded music, well, at least 90% of the fans would be happier :relief:

Disclaimer: I don't mean to refer to Moi dix Mois even though my original quotation was from Mana. I mean my comment generally.

Don't worry, I do refer M10M on my comments :-)

By the way, It's always cool to 'discuss' with you :cool: See you!

Horizon

Sep 12, 2005, 19:50

I love it when people say things I've never said... :p

Ahhh...But you did with the entire "however, I've seen dogs playing piano on TV blooper shows, I wonder if we can consider them too as musicians hehehe" thing.

Now, I'm not saying a dog pianist DOES indeed know about what exactly they're doing, however I'm not a piano-playing-dog, now am I? So I really wouldn't know. Ditto, I'm assuming, for you as well.

So, yes...You were basically implying an assumption to non-human intelligence right there. So nyah! :p

Kinsao

Sep 12, 2005, 20:11

well... I still consider him not a (good) musician, because his purpose was to sell his image, not his music, am I wrong?? I just can't accept that as an example of what a musician does.

That is an interesting point of view. I can accept that you don't consider him a good musician. I'm not sure I agree with your reason, though. I would say, if his music is not good, then, he is not a good musician (regardless of what the image is like). Conversely, if his music is good, he is then a good musician (again, regardless of image).

So, I can say that I think his intention in making music does not affect whether I judge the resulting music as good or bad.

However, you make a good point. Because, personally, I feel that if a musician's intention is not focused purely on communicating through music, but instead their energies are dispersed among also image and theatrics, then their music is less likely to be such high quality. Of course, that is not necessarily the case. I simply feel that... how to say it...?... that a person's motives and intentions in making music are reflected in their resulting work.

That is not at all to say that "visual" bands or those with elaborate stage shows are musically any less good than any others. It depends on how you arrive at the result. In most cases I think the band focuses on the music, that is what is always driving them. Then, the "visual" element is added to this, perhaps in order to sell, perhaps also to give what you might call a more "complete show" (i.e. to appeal to other senses than audio, to enhance the experience of the music - because as you know, live experience is much more enhanced than just CD listening, even for totally non-visual bands). And also, in many of such cases, these elements are worked on mainly by other people than the band - technicians, make up artists etc. - so that even though the band might get control, they don't have to disperse their energies in making the things happen. An example I would think of is Psycho le Cemu, very strongly visual but also they make good music (in my opinion, that is!).

But I do think that if a band concentrates too hard on things outside of music, like the "whole image", probably their music will suffer. You are quite right to say a "musician" is primarily just that - a musician, not a theatre director or choreographer or clothing designer or whatnot. But, I do think that people can attempt to be many things, musician included. But, if you attempt to be many things, the chances are that you will do none of them so well as if you concentrate on one thing. Of course, there are some few very talented people who can succeed in doing the many things, and in my opinion Mana is one of them, to some extent. I think that musically, he could be better, but not so much as actual "bad" musician, and I admire the way he has different abilities.

Anyways, I guess they might have more success if they just make a performance on the stage, with pre-recorded music, well, at least 90% of the fans would be happier :relief:

On the contrary, I personally would lose respect for a band - as a band - that simply did such a thing! And I think many people would, also. That's not to say I wouldn't think they were a very original theatre group, though... :blush:

By the way, It's always cool to 'discuss' with you :cool: See you!

Awww - thankyou! And you! :blush:

SaKeVi

Sep 13, 2005, 06:13

Ahhh...But you did with the entire "however, I've seen dogs playing piano on TV blooper shows, I wonder if we can consider them too as musicians hehehe" thing.

Now, I'm not saying a dog pianist DOES indeed know about what exactly they're doing, however I'm not a piano-playing-dog, now am I? So I really wouldn't know. Ditto, I'm assuming, for you as well.

So, yes...You were basically implying an assumption to non-human intelligence right there. So nyah! :p

Holy cow!! (I hope you not to take this expression as an insult to a cow :-) )

I never said dogs were stupid, if you take my comment as that, I have to tell you that it wasn't my purpose, to minimize animals intelligence.

I said that to express that sometimes, people and even animals just "play" a music instrument even though they are NOT musicians, the fact that you have a guitar and play one chord doesn't make you a musician... I tried to compare Mana (as a musician) with a TV show dog (poor dogs... :relief: ) because as I said, the fact that they make some melodies (NOT music at all) doesn't make them musicians, does it??

So, I can say that I think his intention in making music does not affect whether I judge the resulting music as good or bad.

Interesting, but I will add another topic here: if Mana (or any other VK member or band) doesn't even try to make his music better, he has 2 arguments, 1.- He is a conformist or 2.- He isn't as creative as we thought.
I don't really know which one of this 2 points fit to Mana.

However, you make a good point. Because, personally, I feel that if a musician's intention is not focused purely on communicating through music, but instead their energies are dispersed among also image and theatrics, then their music is less likely to be such high quality. Of course, that is not necessarily the case. I simply feel that... how to say it...?... that a person's motives and intentions in making music are reflected in their resulting work

Hey! I agree with you with that... personally, I've listened and watched a whole bunch of Visual bands, and I was very dissapointed that most of them were just as you said on the last part of your paragraph: they just care about the Visual rather than the music... that's why I criticize a lot Visual Kei :-)

Far now, I like only 3 VK bands: Dead popstars, Kagerou and Kaggra, I find their music interesting and "different".

That is not at all to say that "visual" bands or those with elaborate stage shows are musically any less good than any others. It depends on how you arrive at the result. In most cases I think the band focuses on the music, that is what is always driving them. Then, the "visual" element is added to this, perhaps in order to sell, perhaps also to give what you might call a more "complete show"

Mmm, I think we have the same opinion here, but I'll have to add something on the bottom part of the post.

But, I do think that people can attempt to be many things, musician included. But, if you attempt to be many things, the chances are that you will do none of them so well as if you concentrate on one thing. Of course, there are some few very talented people who can succeed in doing the many things, and in my opinion Mana is one of them, to some extent. I think that musically, he could be better, but not so much as actual "bad" musician, and I admire the way he has different abilities.

Yup, I admire Yoshiki as a musician and a producer, even though I still consider he sucks playing drums :-)

I see Mana just as a "showbusiness" man , he just concluded what Yoshiki started in 1987, he made Visual a complete fashion business all over Japan (and overseas, as we can see)

Finally, I have to say another thing, however some bands try to make a good contribution for Visual, I lose all respect to them as musicians... why?? I just can't imagine their life: to be recognized just because the way I look rather than the way I make and play music, and sadly, this goes for ALL the Visual Bands and members... even X Japan and Dir En Grey.

Somebody do something!! :p

Horizon

Sep 13, 2005, 07:11

Holy cow!! (I hope you not to take this expression as an insult to a cow :-) )

I never said dogs were stupid, if you take my comment as that, I have to tell you that it wasn't my purpose, to minimize animals intelligence.

I said that to express that sometimes, people and even animals just "play" a music instrument even though they are NOT musicians, the fact that you have a guitar and play one chord doesn't make you a musician... I tried to compare Mana (as a musician) with a TV show dog (poor dogs... :relief: ) because as I said, the fact that they make some melodies (NOT music at all) doesn't make them musicians, does it??

I guess...:worried: But then that's then assuming that the dog doesn't think that what it's playing is music either...-is difficult- :relief:

Kinsao

Sep 15, 2005, 21:52

Awww, I don't mean to keep harping on this subject... after all... the visual/non-visual distinction is one that I think would be better forgotten...but I can just never keep my mouth shut! :relief: *sigh* I don't know how to quit while I'm ahead... :sorry: The fact is, I ran across 2 quotations from Eve of Destiny today (yeah, I've been having something of an "EoD-day", lol) that I thought said well what I wanted to say:

"I like to play music and for me it doesn't matter if I'm in a visual band or not as long as I like the music I make. So for me both visual and not-visual is OK."
(Kozi)

"Do not care so much about the look, listen to our music!"
(Haruhiko Ash)

Wheee! Listen to Ash! :p

Interesting, but I will add another topic here: if Mana (or any other VK member or band) doesn't even try to make his music better, he has 2 arguments, 1.- He is a conformist or 2.- He isn't as creative as we thought.
I don't really know which one of this 2 points fit to Mana.

Yeah, that is a good point. If a musician does not try to improve their music, I think they are not really a good musician; or at least, they will not improve but be only mediocre.

I think both of the 2 points fit Mana to some extent. I think he ended up something of conformist to the style which he had created for himself. Hmmm, I think he is creative to an extent, but maybe he doesn't so much challenge himself now and become more creative, but rather stay at the same level?

I just can't imagine their life: to be recognized just because the way I look rather than the way I make and play music

I'm sure a large number of bands find it very annoying if people see only their looks without paying due attention to the music. Even they would agree with you themself.

*hits self on head repeatedly as punishment for reviving topic which should die*
:auch: :auch:

kairi~vs~rinoa

Sep 19, 2005, 01:53

this thread doesn't have to die kinsao, it should only be forgotten if we have another burst of arguements. but if we can discuss then it will be a good thread again. i like discussing.
that quote from Kozi is very interesting. He's focusing on the music and not on the visual which is what all music artists and fans should do.

personally, i dispise hyde fangirls and gackt fangirls. because they're so attractive they just seem to be a magnet for screaming fans. on the other hand, there are true gackt and hyde fans (like rose and horizon for example) who like their music aswell as their looks. those fans i like.
i said that last paragraph because i was witness to a gackt/hyde conversation on slsk a while back and it was not pretty.
"OMFG I LOVE HYDE!! his blonde hair is the best!"
"isn't it adorable! gackt looks so good with blonde hair too! he's so hot"
it went on for what must have been half an hour - 45 minutes. just purely commenting on how much they liked their looks. i find that quite sad (not meaning to be harsh on purpose)

i should think that gackt and hyde know how the fans react to their looks and may use that to their advantage for sales. who knows. but i think they mainly focus on their music which is respectable. if all artists think like kozi then my respect for them will be greater too. but i guess i'll never know that.

and before i get mauled by fans of [insert band name here] then in no way have i said that they purely live for what fans think of their looks. i don't know what they think so i would have no right saying that.