Why do japanese learn English so quickly? [Archive]

Maciamo

Sep 8, 2005, 23:07

From my experience as an English teacher in Japan, I can affirm that the Japanese learn English much, much, much more slowly than Europeans. It's fairly normal as Japanese is completely different from Latino-Germanic languages. But yet, even Finnish speakers usually speak very well English with less effort than the Japanese, and Finnish is maybe even more different from English than Japanese.

But I found the reverse more interesting. Why do the Japanese take so long to learn to speak reasonably fluent English, while the majority of the foreigners (Western and Asian) I have met that were really wanted to learn Japanese managed to become fluent with just 2 or 3 years ?

University-educated Japanese have learnt English for at least 10 years, and many still can't hold a simple conversation (although they could probably understand written English at an intermediate level). All the others have learnt English for at least 6 years at school (except maybe the older generations), but usually cannot even make a simple sentence.

I find this rather strange. In a country like Belgium, all people must learn 2, 3 or 4 foreign languages in highschool, and usually 1 or 2 more in option in university even if one does not study foreign languages (e.g I studied economics, but had 3 foreign languages in option). Just after completing highschool, people are usually already fluent in one or two languages. For example, during my studies of economics (in French), those who chose Dutch and English as an option were supposed to have a level equivalent to a TOEIC 800, watch the news and read books and magazines in these languages. This was "highschool level". When finishing university, their level was supposed to be good enough to do business in these languages with native speakers and without hesitation (those who chose German, Italian, Spanish or Japanese started from 0 though, but were still expected to speak conversationally after 4 years of 3-hour/week option). How many Japanese can boast to be able to do the same in only English even after university ? 5% ?

No, the language level at school is radically different between Belgium and Japan. In fact, I have had students who studied English literature at university, and had a TOEIC score of about 600 or 700 (out of 990). In a Belgian university, it is not even the level expected when one enters university for these subjects.

I was not particularily gifted with languages in highschool. In fact, I was among the last of the class in Dutch, and just average in English. I can only imagine that my former classmates now speak both at a higher level than my English now (which already surpass some so-called "native speakers", but that is not very difficult given the quality of education in some Englsih-speaking countries).

In spite of the fact that I was never really gifted for languages, being mostly a scientific in my orientation in all my schooll years then studied economics, I managed to learn 7 languages at a fluent or conversational level. My Japanese level after 2 years in Japan was already better than the one of most Japanese people after 10 years of English, although we have the same handicap.

I certainly agree that it was more difficult for me to learn Japanese than Latin lnaguages, but hardly harder than Germanic languages for a Latin-language speaker. I probably had a harder time with Dutch than with Japanese, although I grew up in a country where it is the dominant language (about 60% of the population).

Yet I could say it took time with Japanese mostly because I was not very motivated to learn it once I got the basis. After 5 months in a Japanese school, I have only learnt it casually by myself during my free time. I didn't need it for my job (being a English and French teacher), and didn't learn it because I liked it, but just because of my environment. If I had had to study it to pass exams like at school or university, I am sure I would have become fluent more quickly than in German or Dutch, because Japanese is a very basic language, with a simplistic grammar (apart from annoying illogical particles, and an even more annoying plethora of homonyms), and most Japanese use as much vocabulary in their daily life than a elementary schooler where I grew up (no, maybe less). Then the pronuciation is by far the easiest of any language I have learnt, and the kanji only help speed up the learning as we can guess the meaning of words we don't know from the root (a much more difficult thing to do in Latin and Germanic languages).

Glenn

Sep 9, 2005, 00:32

How long did it take Nagashima-san to learn english?

1) He doesn't really know English. He uses an online translator to participate in the forum except for the posts in Japanese.

2) Don't you think it would have been better to have asked him directly?

Minxie

Sep 9, 2005, 01:29

1) He doesn't really know English. He uses an online translator to participate in the forum except for the posts in Japanese.

How did you know that? lol

Yeah the poster shouldve asked directly... things are getting heated/tense in here! :relief:

Pachipro

Sep 9, 2005, 01:43

In my 13 years' experience as an English conversation "teacher" and having owned my own English school in Japan, I have discovered that the Japanese are probably the slowest learners of a foreign language in the world. This is due to the psychology of the Japanese mind in that they have convinced themselves, on a sub-concious level, that it is impossible for them to learn a foreign language. And this is probably re-inforced in school, on TV, by their teachers, and peers, etc.

However, such is not the case as I think Japanese can learn any language quickly if given the right atmosphere.

Case in Point: Miyako. She was a high school student of mine for two years and had been studying English conversation since she was in junior high school. She was a very shy girl with glasses and kind of plain looking. She was so shy that she would hardly look at me during class and always had her head down.

However, after 5 years of "studying" from native speakers she couldn't hold more than a very simple conversation. It was sad and is the usual case among Japanese and is something I had learned to accept. I sometimes felt guilty about accepting money from these people as it was hopeless that the majority would ever learn to speak on a basic level, especially among the adults. As hard as I tried to engage her, or any of my students, in conversation they had a mental block to learning it and some of my students had been "learning" English conversation for more than 10 years!

One day Miyako approached me about attending a six month exchange program in the states during her senior year in high school. I told her that it was a wonderful idea and that it would be a great experience for her. She was a little reluctant and shy, but my wife and I convinced her to go. A few months later off she went.

About eight months later I get a knock at my door in the late afternoon. I opened the door and a very cute, stylish, young Japanese woman was standing there. I had never seen her before and said in Japanese, " Yes, may I help you?"

In perfect, and I do mean perfect, American English and accent she says, "Sensei, don't you recognize me? It's me. Miyako," she said with a smile.

I was stunned! Gone were the glasses and shy demure. She had a stylish haircut, makeup and tight jeans. This WAS NOT the same girl I had been teaching English to for two years. No way! But it was.

I invited her in and my wife and I had a wonderful conversation in English with her. At first she was shy at her school in America, but the students and host family were friendly and she soon picked up the language. I asked her how she had aquired it so quickly and she said that since no one spokle any Japanese it was easy! I was still stunned at this sudden transformation and especially that she spoke with a mid-western US accent and had not a hint of a Japanese accent. She said that she enjoyed America so much that she was going to attend University there instead of Japan. No, this was not the same woman. Shy Miyako would've been too afraid to do that.

I believe that once Japanese (and mayby anybody for that matter) are thrown into an English speaking, or whatever language they are learning, environment, like in a foreign country, where no Japanese is spoken they will learn quickly as there is no other option. I found this to be true especially among my adult students who had studied or worked for some time in an English speaking country, much the same way living in Japan forced me, Maciamo, Mad Pierrot, Mike Cash, and others like Elizabeth to learn Japanese so quickly and fluently. (I don't know if Elizabeth has lived in Japan, but she is very fluent.)

Granted, some do not learn the language even after living in a foreign country for some years. But that is their choice because I think they much rather preferred to hang around with those that spoke their own language. I've seen it in Japan with English speaking people and I've seen it here in the US with Japanese people. I think it is very sad for someone to have lived in a foreign country for more than a year and not be able to speak the language at least on a conversational level.

So for you, GoldCoinLover, it will probably take you many years to learn Japanese if you are studying it here in the US for a couple of hours a week and with no other chance to speak it or practice it outside the classroom. However, if you go and live in Japan, and really desire to, you will be able to speak fairly fluently, including reading and writing after only a year or so if you have the desire. I recommend it to anyone rather than throwing away your hard earned money like most Japanese seem to do studying Eikaiwa in Japan. But hey if they want to throw it, I'll be there to catch it.

If Miyako can do it, anyone can.

lexico

Sep 9, 2005, 01:49

How did you know that? lolAlthough Glenn could answer that question himself, I think as a member, I might be able to answer that. Glenn said that because Hiroyuki Nagashima-san said so several times, and also because through his active support by answering many, many, many questions of language and Japanese information, Hiroyuki Nagashima-san has become a public figure on this forum. There's also a thread dedicated to him, too. Hiroyuki Nagashima is my friend (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17657&highlight=hiroyuki+nagashima)
Yeah the poster should've asked directly... things are getting heated/tense in here! :relief:Not really; this is how a lot of discussions go. "It is another person that sharpens one's mind, as steel sharpens steel."

The OP's thesis is actually an interesting one although the colloquial presentation might look a bit confusing (Mike pointed out this obvious contradictory appearance.)

"If it can be said that a native speaker with many vowels learning a new language with fewer vowels should be easier than for a native speaker with fewer vowels learning a language with more vowels, then how does a Mexican with only 5 vowels of /a, e, i, o, u/ easily learn English with 8 vowels in only 2 yrs while an American with 8 vowels /a, e, ae, i, o (open), o, u, @/ might spend 10 yrs (Goldcoinlover's self-assessment) to learn Japanese with only 5 vowels ?"

I think that is one way of looking at the question intended by GoldCoinLover.

blade_bltz

Sep 9, 2005, 01:59

Pachipro - I think you've got it right on the money. I am friends with two Japanese guys, both of whom made it out to the States, both of whom picked up English at an incredible speed and now speak it at a perfectly natural level.

Maciamo

Sep 9, 2005, 10:19

InI believe that once Japanese (and mayby anybody for that matter) are thrown into an English speaking, or whatever language they are learning, environment, like in a foreign country, where no Japanese is spoken they will learn quickly as there is no other option. I found this to be true especially among my adult students who had studied or worked for some time in an English speaking country, much the same way living in Japan forced me, Maciamo, Mad Pierrot, Mike Cash, and others like Elizabeth to learn Japanese so quickly and fluently. (I don't know if Elizabeth has lived in Japan, but she is very fluent.)

Thanks for sharing this story, Pachipro. I completely agree that living in the country helps a lot to learn the language, except of course if one hangs out with people who speak another common language (English or whatever).

What probably helped me learn 6 foreign languages is that, like many Belgians (and Europeans in general, especially Northern European), I used my sumer holidays at school and university to study a few weeks or a month in a language school in another European country. This was great as it allowed me to experience living in another country for a short period (either in a host family or an apartment), allowed me to visit the city of my choice and the region (I stayed in Florence, Rome, Sevilla, Salamanca and Barcelona, from 2 weeks to 6 weeks each). This was less costly than going there as a tourist, as I didn't stay in a hotel and cooked by myself. The lessons were generally only 4 hours a day, 5 days a week, so there was still plenty of free time.

I quizzed my wife and other Japanese acquaintances about this, and nobody seems to do the same while still a student in Japan. All the people who go abroad with a "ryugaku" programme do it after their studies (usually after working a few years), and usually for a period of one year.

My question is WHY ? Why is it common (even normal) for students in some European countries to go on a study-holiday programme abroad (some go to the USA, Canada, Latin America, or even as far as Australia). Money is probably not a problem, as Japan is also a rich country. If Europe is too far, they could go to Australia, Hawaii, Hong Kong, Singapore or even Korea to learn Korean (European students do not limit themselves to 1 or even 2 languages). Time is not a problem. The Japanese have about 6 weeks of summer holiday. Motivation is not a problem as may Japanese go and study abroad later anyway. Could it be that Japanese parents (with almost no exception) refuse to finance these very useful and not so expensive overseas studies, or worse, that they try to prevent them from doing so because "foreign countries are dangerous" ? I can't understand why the same parents who pay expensive "juku" or private lessons in Eikaiwa schools to their children for years, would not want to pay for 2 or 3 weeks of English in a similar (and probably cheaper) school in, say, Australia. I can't understand that a university student is too young to go abroad, when others of the same age who do not go to university go on "ryugaku" programmes by themselves.

Then what about highschool student exchange programmes like AFS or Rotary Club ? These seem virtually unheard of in Japan. There used to be 3 or 4 non-European exchange students in my last 2 years of highschool, but never a single Japanese. When I asked in Japan, I was told that such programmes existed but were very rare. These programmes do not cost anything and are as safe as it can be, as the exchange students stay in a carefully selected host family that take good care of them (and is responsible for them, like real parents). The highschool English level in Japan is not the issue. Many people go on such programmes in countries where they do not know the language at all (Russia, Thailand, Brazil, etc.), and learn when they arrive. After one year they are usually fairly fluent, wherever they chose to go. This is because they have no opportunity to speak their native language, and must communicate with locals at school and in the host family. Such programmes should be encouraged more in Japan.

My recommendation for Japanese people who want to become fluent in another language (or want their children to become fluent) is :
- go on study-holiday trips for a few weeks during summer holidays
- go on a one-year exchange programme in highschool or university
- go on a "ryugaku" programme for one year, and DON'T stick around other Japanese people (so avoid big cities like London, as you WILL be tempted).

The last one is already common, but is by far the most expensive, and possibly the least efficient. My wife also stayed for 6 month in London, but she stayed half of this period in a student appartment where all the other tenants were Japanese. I know how common this is in London, so don't do the same mistake.

Maciamo

Sep 9, 2005, 10:45

"If it can be said that a native speaker with many vowels learning a new language with fewer vowels should be easier than for a native speaker with fewer vowels learning a language with more vowels, then how does a Mexican with only 5 vowels of /a, e, i, o, u/ easily learn English with 8 vowels in only 2 yrs while an American with 8 vowels /a, e, ae, i, o (open), o, u, @/ might spend 10 yrs (Goldcoinlover's self-assessment) to learn Japanese with only 5 vowels ?"

I think GoldCoinLover only "talked" to this Mexican person on the Internet (in written), and so could not judge the accent. But Mexcians speak Spanish, a language derieved from Latin, and so have a lot of facilities learning English, as about half the vocabulary is similiar (and the grammar is not SO different).

Lexico, what do you mean that English has 8 vowels ? I counted 13 of them without the diphtongs. They are here on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language).

lexico

Sep 9, 2005, 11:46

Yes, I know what you mean. In phonetic trascription of the major international varieties of English there are monophthong vowels of either 13, 14, or 18 depending on classification. English Phonology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology)The number of phonemes in English

The number of speech sounds in English varies from dialect to dialect, and any actual tally depends greatly on the interpretation of the researcher doing the counting. The Longman Pronunciation Dictionary by John C. Wells, for example, using symbols of the International Phonetic Alphabet, denotes 24 consonants and 23 vowels used in Received Pronunciation, plus two additional consonants and four additional vowels used in foreign words only. For General American it provides for 25 consonants and 19 vowels, with one additional consonant and three additional vowels for foreign words. The American Heritage Dictionary, on the other hand, suggests 25 consonants and 18 vowels (including r-colored vowels) for American English, plus one consonant and five vowels for non-English terms.However in phonemic transcription which is equivalent to a broad transcription allophonic variations that can be distinquished acousitically are merged depending on purpose of the transcribing. (there are many ways to do this. Phonetic Transcription (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetic_transcription)) Narrow and broad transcription

There are two general types of alphabetic phonetic transcription: broad transcription and narrow transcription. Broad transcription is usually just a transcriptions of the phonemes of an utterance, whereas narrow transcription encodes information about the phonetic variations of the specific allophones in the utterance.Going back to your link, this is how I counted 8 monophthongs in North American English by merging the 13 vowels defined in wiki English Language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) in your link.

monophthongs in narrow transcription

01. i/iː Close front unrounded vowel bead
02. ɪ Near-close near-front unrounded vowel bid
03. ɛ Open-mid front unrounded vowel bed
04. æ Near-open front unrounded vowel bad
05. ɒ Open back rounded vowel bod
06. ɔ Open-mid back rounded vowel pawed
07. ɑ/ɑː Open back unrounded vowel bra
08. ʊ Near-close near-back rounded vowel good
09. u/uː Close back rounded vowel booed
10. ʌ/ɐ Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Near-open central vowel bud
11. ɝ/ɜː Open-mid central unrounded vowel bird
12. ə Schwa Rosa's
13. ɨ Close central unrounded vowel roses

I merged the following category of vowels in my broad transcription.
First, short and long monophtongs
Second, lax and tense monophthongs
Third, monophthongs in proximity to each other
Fourth, ignore rhotic colouring.

monophthongs in broad transcription

(1) i: Close front unrounded
01. i/iː Close front unrounded vowel bead
02. ɪ Near-close near-front unrounded vowel bid
13. ɨ Close central unrounded vowel roses

(2) e: Open-mid front unrounded
03. ɛ Open-mid front unrounded vowel bed

(3) ae: Open front unrounded
04. æ Near-open front unrounded vowel bad

(4) o: open back rounded
06. ɔ Open-mid back rounded vowel pawed
07. ɑ/ɑː Open back unrounded vowel bra
(*) NAE lacks this sound, either pronouncing it as (4)
05. ɒ Open back rounded vowel bod

(5) u: close back rounded
08. ʊ Near-close near-back rounded vowel good
09. u/uː Close back rounded vowel booed

(6) @/invereted v: Central
10. ʌ/ɐ Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Near-open central vowel bud
11. ɝ/ɜː Open-mid central unrounded vowel bird
12. ə Schwa Rosa's

Oops, the number should have been 6, instead of 8 ! Miscalculation on my part. These 6 monophthong vowels are what I find phonetically distinct enough to be easily distinquishable by an ESL/EFL student. I guess my interpretation breaks down because there are only 6 vowels in North American English which is only 1 more than Japanese in number. What can be said is that the 6 NAE vowels and the 5 Japanese vowels are only close in /i, e/ but quite different in the Japanese /a, u, o/ ~ NAE /ae, u, a~o, central/ sounds. This would be one area of difficulty in learning a different vowel system in either direction.

Minxie

Sep 10, 2005, 02:14

Although Glenn could answer that question himself, I think as a member, I might be able to answer that.....Not really; this is how a lot of discussions go. "It is another person that sharpens one's mind, as steel sharpens steel."

Thanks for the 411 on Hiroyuki.

Also... i was just kidding around about "things are getting heated/tense in here!" ... its kind of like a witty sarcastic tone... lol... but thanks for replying to that too

:relief:

misa.j

Sep 10, 2005, 11:55

Learning English in Japan could be very challenging and trying to be fluent is almost impossible.
It might sound silly, but speaking English with correct pronounciation in front of other Japanese people can occasionally make you feel uncomfortable because they simply don't understand what you're saying or envy you.

They start having English classes in middle school or, for some kids, they start going to "Juku" which has English course in elementary school, but what they learn in English classes doesn't really help for conversation. They emphasize on grammer and vocabulary, and they teach you to understand it in Japanese which makes it very confusing for most students. I'm thinking that's one of the reasons not many people are willing to commit in studying seriously.

Well, I've been living in the US for over six years now, but I don't think I'm fluent yet when it comes to speech, I still have a lot to learn. Everything I do, like thinking, singing to myself(?), dreaming is in English, though.

Keiichi

Sep 10, 2005, 13:38

One of the main reasons some do commit to studying it is for the University entrance exams to get into a good University. But of course, as mentioned, just grammar and vocabulary is highly emphasized, as that's what's on the entrance exams also. Afterwards, the English knowledge of most just goes straight down the drain since it's not needed anymore.

Keiichi

:blush:

GoldCoinLover

Sep 11, 2005, 08:16

Thank you for the response. What is Eikaiwa ?

I don't know how long it would take me to learn japanese in america (but probably 10 years), but I plan to get on some type of exchange program at a community colleage to go there and learn japanese, see if I like it, and live there for awhile.

That mexican lady I talked to, I talked to her at McDonalds. All the latio people seem to work there.It wasn't on the internet

Maciamo

Sep 11, 2005, 10:39

That mexican lady I talked to, I talked to her at McDonalds. All the latio people seem to work there.It wasn't on the internet

And how was her grammar ? Didn't she confuse past simple and present perfect, mistake in irregular tenses, confuse some prepositions or add "the" where it's not needed ? These are all typical mistakes of Spanish speakers. If you can't tell, the you are not ready to become an English teacher.

Btw, Eikaiwa means "English conversation" in Japanese.

WHEATTHlNS

Sep 11, 2005, 12:57

That mexican lady I talked to, I talked to her at McDonalds. All the latio people seem to work there.It wasn't on the internet.

Uhh. . .

10 years to "learn" another language? Thats. . .ALOT of time - are you going for FLUENCY or UNDERSTANDING - cause theres a difference, and being the lazy individual I am, I'd much rather go with UNDERSTANDING and be satisfied.

And ENGLISH is a pain to learn. I hated it and its filthy grammar and hate it now. It is so markedly different from JAPANESE thats its not even funny - no plurals, no pronouns, no subject verb agreements - ahhhhh the joy.

Dream Time

Sep 12, 2005, 01:09

it only depends on how much effort you put in learning the language, and how much you use it.

when i was in Hong Kong, my english was very poor, also never really had the chance to use it outside the classroom, i came to Canada when i was 10, i came into the ESL class, and i was able to hold up conversations in English within 3 months.

Dream Time

Sep 12, 2005, 01:13

i think English is very easy to learn

Chinese, on the other hand, is very, very difficult.

Maciamo

Sep 12, 2005, 10:47

And ENGLISH is a pain to learn. I hated it and its filthy grammar and hate it now. It is so markedly different from JAPANESE thats its not even funny - no plurals, no pronouns, no subject verb agreements - ahhhhh the joy.

No pronouns in Japanese ? What about watashi, boku, ore, anata, kimi, etc. as personal pronouns ?

As for subject-verb agreement, there aren't really any in English except for the verb "to be" and the final "s" at the 3rd person. Not really difficult compared to Latin grammar.

WHEATTHlNS

Sep 12, 2005, 11:10

Let me requalify and say that (unless explicit and needed) pronouns arent as important in JAPANESE as in ENGLISH. But if I had the time I could come up with a laundry list of differences between ENGLISH and JAPANESE language (at the top would certainly be formal and informal speech patters) -

And so far, the only grammar I've seen are the backwards commas (those have yet to be given a name in our class) and periods.

Mike Cash

Sep 12, 2005, 20:09

I think you're confusing grammar and punctuation.....

Kinsao

Sep 13, 2005, 18:51

I think whether or not Japanese people learn English quickly depends a great deal on the individual person (i.e. their capacity for learning), the circumstances, their tutor (or lack of), and other incalculable variables.

For instance, I think it's pretty much certain that if you go and live in a country, you will learn the language much faster than by taking classes in your own country. Similarly, if you take classes, you will learn faster than if you try and learn by yourself.

I can't really talk from experience as I have only know few Japanese people living in the UK :sorry: In all cases I would say their English skill was "good" but not "perfect"; I mean they have no trouble in understanding and being understood, but still have some accent and the occasional incorrect grammer or words. This is no more or less than I would expect from, say, a native Italian speaker living in the UK.

If someone is motivated, has average level of intelligence, and lives in an English-speaking country, there is no reason they couldn't learn English quickly. If they continue to live in Japan, probably they wouldn't get such a good accent, though (unless they had a really good tutor, maybe?)

The same goes for the other way around, native English speakers learning Japanese. However, I was only really thinking about speaking and understanding. Writing the kanji would be harder to learn than for Japanese to learn the Western script. But not being good at kanji shouldn't hamper things like accent, especially if the person was living in Japan.

Silverpoint

Sep 14, 2005, 23:09

Maciamo

Sep 14, 2005, 23:33

When you start to become a little more proficient with kanji it makes everything so much easier. I was helping an English friend a few days ago with his Japanese homework and he had one of those 'all hiragana' textbooks. I still find it slow going trying to read a page of hiragana. Once you start to understand kanji you can read at 10 times the speed because the everything becomes clearer - sentence structure, meaning, word breaks etc...

I agree with that. The first thing I studied in Japanese were the kanji. Even now, my kanji level is higher than my vocabulary (i.e. sometimes I can read the kanji and know the individual meaning, but not the whole word) or grammar.

Kinsao

Sep 15, 2005, 00:12

I really want to learn kanji. My class (which starts in about an hour from now, wahay!) unfortunately does not cover kanji, so I intend to try and learn them myself from good study guide or some such. I will feel more confident to learn, when I am also learning the speaking in parallel. :relief:

Gaijinian

Sep 15, 2005, 07:10

I agree with that. The first thing I studied in Japanese were the kanji. Even now, my kanji level is higher than my vocabulary (i.e. sometimes I can read the kanji and know the individual meaning, but not the whole word) or grammar.
Same here.

GoldCoinLover

Sep 15, 2005, 17:15

And how was her grammar ? Didn't she confuse past simple and present perfect, mistake in irregular tenses, confuse some prepositions or add "the" where it's not needed ? These are all typical mistakes of Spanish speakers. If you can't tell, the you are not ready to become an English teacher.

Btw, Eikaiwa means "English conversation" in Japanese.

Hehe, I honestly forgot what simple and present perfect, mistake in irregular tenses, and prepositions meant. I want to be something other than a english teacher in japan...eventually. But I'll probably start as one. Maybe I can brush on my english, I am going to take english classes as one of my last classes in my senior year of highschool :) Which I will take soon. Apparently at nova, you can teach without prior teaching experience, just need to be a native speaker. By the way no, her english was perfect. Whenever I go to that mcdonalds she is working there. Maybe shes lying, but I think it took her longer than 2 years..

lexico

Sep 15, 2005, 17:35

[A] Mexican lady the other day, she said after 2 years she could speak english fluently.Well, she also could have had years of English back in Mexico, but only 2 yrs of exposure in a mostly English speaking environment. Hey, I've learned/studied English for almost 10 yrs, and 2 yrs was barely enough to get me fluent enough in campus English. :p I am going to take english classes as one of my last classes in my senior year of highschool Which I will take soon. Apparently at nova, you can teach without prior teaching experience, just need to be a native speaker.Although people talk about the critical age limit of around 12 before which learning a foreign language close to a native speaker is possible, a lot of people also argue that having a good, conscious understanding of one's own language makes a huge impact on understanding & performing in the newly learned language. Hence I would like to suggest that you take you English class (which I assume is geared towards grammar for English composition for writing academic essays) rather seriously and spend a decent amount of time, work, reflection and research in order for you to 1) get a good grasp of your Japanese 2) be able to convey your understanding of English to your future Japanese students of English.

I may be only one case, but my extensive studies in Korean phonology (sound studies), morphology (word formation), syntax (sentence), and historical linguistics (language history) in high school contributed greatly to my understanding of English as well as teaching English to students at all levels. So if I may extend the analogy, a good grasp of your first language both in performance (as a native speaker) and its grammatical properties would help you in those two areas. Knowing one, pointing out the difference by comparison, and also learning to be fluent in the new language will give you all the tools you might need to become a good langauge instructor. Go talk to your English teacher for guidance, get the book beforehand, and stay ahead of your class always; you won't regret it ! :cool:

Maciamo

Sep 15, 2005, 23:49

Hehe, I honestly forgot what simple and present perfect, mistake in irregular tenses, and prepositions meant.

It is unthinkable for a continental European not to know what these things mean in their respective languages. I believe that one just cannot be a teacher (even a bad one) without knowing this. Although all French, German, Italian or Spanish speakers know very well since the age of 9 or 10 what an article or a preposition is, the name of all tenses and other grammatical elements not found in English, it would be unthinkable to become a foreign language teacher in Europe without a 4-year university degree in that language, which means knowing also the literature and history of that language, and reasonably well also the antique language it comes from (especially for languages deriving from Latin, as there are plenty of Latin texts surviving).

Sorry but I am just shocked when I hear American people who go and teach English in Japan and hardly know the basics of grammar of their own language. (I am not talking about you, as you are not in Japan, but people I have met, and like whom you may become as I see it come).

Ma Cherie

Sep 16, 2005, 00:12

Maciamo

Sep 16, 2005, 11:28

Perhaps it's not that the teachers don't know basic grammer rules,
it could be more to the point that they forget basic grammer rules. This seems to be true when people begin writing English (I know we're talking about speaking it) :sorry: it's easy to forget basic grammer rules.

And why would French, German, or Italian speakers not forget them so easily ?

And English seems to have so many rules. :?

If Europeans like English it is justly because it has much less rules and grammar than other European languages. No subject-verb or noun-adjective agreement, no masculine-feminine-neutral, almost no conjugation, not so strict syntax (e.g. you can drop the "that" in relative sentences), flexible syntax (Japan's history, the history of Japan, japanese history...), no declensions, etc.

At any rate, I think when it comes to grammer rules I think it comes from the fact that the rules seem to change when writing and speaking. Or so it seems.

But so does it in every language. That's why school teach how to write properly.

Ma Cherie

Sep 16, 2005, 11:43

There are alot of grammer rules in English. (At least I think so) I think the reason why German speakers don't easily forget grammer rules is because one, there probably aren't as many and two, German is logical language anyway. A friend of mine tried to teach me German, and everything seems to fit together. :souka: You often point out that European schools put more emphasis on language, I also think this could contribute to the fact that Europeans don't forget grammer rules as much. The only argument I could come up with as to why so many Americans forget or simply don't know grammer well is because there isn't alot of emphasis on language.

Or we could just be stupid like that. :sorry:
(kidding)

Maciamo

Sep 16, 2005, 14:07

There are alot of grammer rules in English. (At least I think so) I think the reason why German speakers don't easily forget grammer rules is because one, there probably aren't as many and two, German is logical language anyway.

German has much more grammatical rules than English. That's a fact. But have you studied German yourself ? It is not because German grammar is more logical than there are less rules. German has a lot a rules, but fairly regular and logical. French has a lot of rules, but very irregular and illogical. English has few rules and because they are quite flexible, it seems that they are not logical (if fact they are among the most logical, which is why I like English).

You often point out that European schools put more emphasis on language, I also think this could contribute to the fact that Europeans don't forget grammer rules as much.

If something differentiate European schools from American ones, it is first and foremost the maths level (a 12th grade in the US is commonly recognised as a 9th or 10th grade in Continental Europe by student exchange organisations), and the general knowledge (history and geopolitics). Then come foreign languages and the mother tongue's level. In fact, because English is so much easier to learn from a grammatical point of view to become functional in daily life, the mother tongue's course don't take as long as for German, French, Italian, Spanish, etc. So English speakers can spend more time on literature, or learn at a more relaxed pace. Because mother tongue classes are the main subject with maths in primary/elementary school, I think that this slower pace also influences the pace of other subjects, which in the end result in a big gap between the US and EU highschool levels.

So it's not necessarily because the average of intelligence is lower in the US (although it has been proved that children from poor families and immigrant families perfom less well at school, and the US has more poor and immigrant families than Europe), but because the academic exigencies are lower from the start - partly because there are too many hours dedicated to English compared to what's necessary, which slows down the pace.

lexico

Sep 16, 2005, 17:57

How does that affect native speakers and language learners ?
Wikipedia on English Language: Grammar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Grammar)English grammar is based on its Germanic roots, though some scholars during the 1700s and 1800s attempted to impose Latin grammar upon it, with little success. English is just slightly inflected, much less so than most Indo-European languages. It compensates for this by placing more grammatical information in auxiliary words and word order. Unlike most other Indo-European languages, nominal groups (nouns) in English do not carry gender.
Wikipedia on English Grammar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar)English grammar is the study of grammar in the English language. Grammars of English can be either prescriptive or descriptive. Prescription sets rules for language, while description simply describes the way a language is spoken; this article attempts to be primarily descriptive. It is important to understand that experts disagree about many parts of English grammar: what follows is just one analysis among many.

The grammar of English is in some ways relatively simple, and in others quite complex. For example, word order is relatively fixed because English is an analytic language and this aspect of grammar is therefore relatively simple. The verb system, on the other hand, is quite large and complex, like those of many other Indo-European languages.
I think the different levels of grammatical awareness between native English speakers when compared to native speakers of other Indo-European languages have two distinct causes.

First, English in general has little grammar if we restrict the narrow application of grammar to syntactic rules expressed in single noun/verb forms. Limiting the discussion to synthetic verb forms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_language) in the active voice only for sake of brevity, a French verb (in the active voice) for example can express by itself the following.

- person: 1st, 2nd, 3rd
- number: singlular, plural
- tense: present, simple past (preterite), imperfect past, simple future (depending on mood)
- mood: indicative, imperative, subjunctive, infinitive, participial, or gerundive
- aspect: perfect or not (imbedded in tense, non-periphratic verb forms)

As a result, a single French verb can have as many as 45 forms (not including the infinitive and the two participials) conveying all these verbal meanings.

English in comparison cannot express all the grammatical meanings pertaining to the verb except in the two synthetic forms of the present and the simple past, resulting in 3 forms (e.g. have, has, had).

- person & number: (1st+2nd+3rd plural merged) and (3rd singular) only in present tense*
(*with the exception of the be verb)
- tense: present and simple past
- mood: (indicative, imperative, subjunctive**, and infinitive variously merged), participial, or gerundive
(**with subjunctive present for the be verb as an exception)
- aspect: not expressible except in infinitive and participial

With analytic phrasal verbs (periphrases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periphrasis): several words conveying the grammatical meaning) conveying the following in addition,

- tense: progressive (=continuous) in all active tenses (18), but not with passive future, not with the three tenses of passive perfect (aspect)
- aspect: perfect or not
- voice: active, passive, or reflexive

the ratio of possible verbal forms between French and English increases from 45 : 3 to 90 : 24. Hence it can be said that the expressiveness of the single, unassisted (non-periphrastic) English verb lacks the verbal conjugation at a complexity 3/45 = 6.7% of that of French. Taking the multi-word (analytic) English verb, English verbs as a whole shows only 24/90 = 26.7% of the verb complexity of French.

English nouns, adjectives, articles, and determiners lack gender and case with the exception of pronomial declension which hardly accounts for 1% of the paradigm across all nominals, i.e. noun equivalent words. Therefore it can be safely said that English lacks declension. Even if we take into account usage frequency involving the pronouns, the figure is less than 5% of that of French.

What is lost in word inflection, English needed not make up for every detail in multi-word, analytical words although there are plenty of phrases of all sorts following productive rules of word formation. Hence the relative simplicity of English grammar is both misleading and gives the effect of complexity by some sort of surprise factor. Several facts of English and written English:

1) Analytical verbs are learned with relative ease, and can be improved upon even when one form is used only partially correct whereas an erroneous French verb might throw off the listener/reader completely. The greater redundancy of English makes it easier for the learner and instructor.

2) Auxiliary devices of conjunctions (if) co-verbs, auxiliary verbs, and modals are used extensively to make up for some of the lost verbal conjugations which might make it rather unclear to the language learner as well as the native speaker how to handle/explain them.

3) The conventions of written English (=English grammar taught in English speaking areas) have been artificially forged after the model of the classical writers and the culturally more advanced Latinate language conventions; hence grammar of written English learned in school can often be discrepant with the spoken form.

4) English grammar was also molded after the classical languages, causing the awkward forcing of prescriptions to "correct" the English language, and this has left scars both in the grammar books, learners, and instructors alike.

See the higly interesting discussion of Prescriptive and Descriptive Grammar: A history of linguistic prescription in English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_and_description#A_history_of_linguist ic_prescription_in_English) in Wikipedia.

Secondly, the American attitude towards grammar must be mentioned although I have not the experience to compare. Therefore I would like to simply raise the topic of the British emphasis on proper form versus the American emphasis on casualness (=disliking formalities) and communicative pragmatism. The difference seems to be more than subtle, resulting in perhaps over 90% of Americans that I've met saying they disliked grammar and composition, perhaps out of a mild form of political correctness to be more natural as language users and to be more descriptive in applying language studies to teaching and learning.

Kinsao

Sep 16, 2005, 18:05

As a result, a single French verb can have as many as 45 forms (not including the infinitive and the twp particlples) conveying all these verbal meanings.

Wow. :o

I didn't know that.

When it's analysed, French then sounds complicated... but somehow I don't find it to be difficult... I don't know why, maybe it's some kind of genetic tendency :? :blush:

I think German is difficult... I never progressed very far to learn it, but it seems to me to have many rules compared with English, even if they are logical. :buuh:

Maciamo

Sep 16, 2005, 18:59

As a result, a single French verb can have as many as 45 forms (not including the infinitive and the twp particlples) conveying all these verbal meanings.

I didn't know that.

When it's analysed, French then sounds complicated... but somehow I don't find it to be difficult... I don't know why, maybe it's some kind of genetic tendency

In fact, French has 7 simple tenses and 7 composed tenses with 6 persons, then 2 imperatives with 3 persons and 6 other tenses with just one person (see example (http://www.la-conjugaison.fr/du/verbe/aller.php)). In total, a single French verb can thus have : (14x6)+(2x3)+(6x1)= 96 forms per verb. I admit that 4 tenses (28 forms) are hardly ever used nowadays though. Primary school students spend a ridiculous amount of time memorising all those forms for all the hundreds of irregular verbs. That is why such sites as the one in link above exist (over 8000 verbs conjugated). Compare to that, learning 2000 kanji just seems like amusement (especially that Japanese children learn them over 12 years, while French-speakers learn them in less than 6 years).

But what I find most annoying in French are the silent subject-verb and noun-adjective agreements (especially that unnerving Latin rule that a past participle agrees with the subject with some verbs and the object with others, but only if the object precedes the verb ! So one must think everytime one wishes to write something as it is completely unnatural and not rendered in spoken French).

I think German is difficult... I never progressed very far to learn it, but it seems to me to have many rules compared with English, even if they are logical. :buuh:

It's difficult to judge the difficulty of a language if you have not reached some fluency in it, or not learned several other languages to compare. I'd say that German is easier than Dutch or French, but more difficult than English, Italian or Japanese.

Limonette

Sep 17, 2005, 02:43

My German teacher complained that us students didn't even know English - she had to teach us English grammar so we could understand German, like the difference between a noun and a verb, etc. True!

Ma Cherie

Sep 17, 2005, 03:23

My German teacher complained that us students didn't even know English - she had to teach us English grammar so we could understand German, like the difference between a noun and a verb, etc. True!

Alright there is something seriously wrong with that, I understand that lots of students don't know grammer all that well, but how in the helll could the students not know the difference between a noun and a verb? :mad: For goodness sake, I was drilled with that stuff in the third grade. I don't know, maybe I was fortunate enough to have good teachers. There's no point in learning another language if you hardly know your own. :okashii:

JerseyBoy

Jan 15, 2006, 23:45

It seems there are many teachers/educators in various fields on this forum.

I think learning multiple languages at the early age can be more attainable if you live in the regions where many different languages are spoken. EU countries are one of the good examples of this as you can go to the next country by train or car without immigration issues. I think many Japanese parents do not like to finance the overseas study for their children as they prefer their children to focus on the entrance exam for high school or university. When I was in Japan, I sensed many parents felt studying in overseas is a distraction from their goal which is the success entry into the prestigious high school or university.

Fortunately, my folks were a little more open minded (or I rather changed their minds as I set up a plan to study, live, and work overseas). I did a home stay with one family in California for a summer and I listened to English/American programs (VOA, BBC, and a few ones available from the Japanese satellite broadcast service), while reading various books (from Dickens to current best seller books).

In general, the English education in Japanese schools is focused on reading and understanding instead of listening and speaking. I think that is the reason some people go to the language schools to compensate for that deficiency in the official education programs. I did not take the route as I went to US for higher education.

I am not a perpetual student who loves to study for the sake of knowledge. I am a pragmatist who learns things I can use for my personal objectives and goals. Even though I am not going to the graduate school, I consider myself competent enough to learn things I want to learn without going to an educational establishment where I park myself in the classroom. I am a self learner.

Since we are talking about mastering the foreign languages, I would like to ask your opinion on self learning language programs such as Rosetta Stone. Even though I am not in a need to learn new languages (so far English and Japanese are serving me well in my profession), I am interested in picking the other one up as a hobby. I am leaning toward French or German.

Yokan

Jan 16, 2006, 05:33

My German teacher complained that us students didn't even know English - she had to teach us English grammar so we could understand German, like the difference between a noun and a verb, etc. True!

are you meaning as in like the french, cause we have different ways of saying stuff in french. For instance

I am big - je suis grand [for a boy] je suis grande [for a girl]

french....why i hate school XDDDDDDD [and maths]

Mike Cash

Jan 16, 2006, 19:05

My German teacher complained that us students didn't even know English - she had to teach us English grammar so we could understand German, like the difference between a noun and a verb, etc. True!

Your teacher was right. Did she also teach the difference between nominative case and objective case pronouns? ("we students"....not "us students")

gaijinalways

Jan 23, 2006, 21:50

while the majority of the foreigners (Western and Asian) I have met that were really wanted to learn Japanese managed to become fluent with just 2 or 3 years ?
I am amazed if that is the truth. Most foreigners, especially the ones who are not Chinese or Korean, take much longer than 2 years to become fluent in Japanese (reading, writing, speaking, listening).
I can only imagine that my former classmates now speak both at a higher level than my English now (which already surpass some so-called "native speakers", but that is not very difficult given the quality of education in some Englsih-speaking countries).
You would need to specify which countries you are comparing the English speaking countries to. Unless you're talking about Finland, which recently ranked 1# in the world for comparable subjects, that would hardly appear to be true.

In spite of the fact that I was never really gifted for languages, being mostly a scientific in my orientation in all my schooll years then studied economics, I managed to learn 7 languages at a fluent or conversational level.
[B]Yet I could say it took time with Japanese mostly because I was not very motivated to learn it once I got the basis.
I am impressed if you can juggle 7 languages. I barely juggle 4 now, and my Chinese has fallen below the conversational level.
My apologies for being slightly picky, but even though I think your English is quite good, I don't think I would rate it in the native category. The two errors displayed above I caught just skimming your post.
Probably better would be "having mostly emphasised science in my studies" or "having a mostly scientific orientation in my studies" and "once I got the basics"
But to be honest, the errors are minor and don't impair the communication of either of your points.

I think that in Europe, because of the close proximity of countries to one another, it is much easier to be exposed to and learn other languages as you could go to several countries just in one weekend! Also, all/most of the education systems in especially Western Europe expose students to more languages than most equivalent public schools in England, North America, Australia, and New Zealand.
differentiate European schools from American ones, it is first and foremost the maths level (a 12th grade in the US is commonly recognised as a 9th or 10th grade in Continental Europe by student exchange organisations), and the general knowledge (history and geopolitics). Then come foreign languages and the mother tongue's level.

I am wondering here, and maybe you can help me out. I have noticed in Hong Kong, China, and Japan, like Europe, they study some concepts in mathematics much earlier than the States. What I did notice was, the depth wasn't the same. In other words, Americans study more concepts within the related disciplines, i.e. geometry, algebra, trigonometry, etc.
I would hazard a guess that it's the same in Europe. My Japanese students and Chinese students that I have tutored in math were always amazed that I knew 'tricks' or shortcuts that they had never studied in school (and perhaps never will, in school that is).
JerseyBoy
It seems there are many teachers/educators in various fields on this forum.
I think learning multiple languages at the early age can be more attainable if you live in the regions where many different languages are spoken. EU countries are one of the good examples of this as you can go to the next country by train or car without immigration issues.
This emphasises my above point about exposure to languages, wherein the EU countries win hands down over many other areas in the world, perhaps excepting some parts of Africa.

Himiko

Feb 10, 2006, 03:44

WOAH. みんあさん。I just read the ENTIRE thread. This is heavy stuff. :souka:
But I just want to say:

English is very hard compared to Japanese. Isn't that the root of this whole thing?

And to whomever started this thread, I have one thing for you:
If you want to learn a language fluently in a year (maybe two years), set-up a program that works! Listen; I am currently learning 55 words a month. That's only 2-3 words a day, and then a quiz at the end of each week. Very stress-free.

Of course, I realize that that statement is not going to be held so very true, as I have been 'scantily' studying the language 4 years before now. But I've just gotten serious about it this year, and I've learned 10 times as much as those previous years combined. :cool:

So, if you're to take one thing from this post, Find a learning program that really works for you and it'll be a lot easier.

gaijinalways

Feb 10, 2006, 15:43

Find a learning program that really works for you and it'll be a lot easier.
Thanks Himiko, I'm still looking for that, but I'm still trying.

changedonrequest

Feb 10, 2006, 16:31

Boy when I first read the thread title I thought for sure that there was going to be comedy at the least..........Great attention getter.......carry on......as I back out of the way.........interesting conversation by the way.......very informative

godppgo

Feb 10, 2006, 16:45

Wow it seems there are quite a few language experts/educators on this forum. A few people mentioned about reaching fluency in Japanese in 2 or 3 years. I don't see why this is not possible however, the challenge would be to maintain and improve after you have reached a certain fluency level.

Myself started learning English when I was 13, I've noticed a great improvment during my high school years. I studied engineering during university and somehow my English sorta stopped improving or was improving at a very slow pace. I blame it on all those technical/scientific engineering books I spent most of my time reading.

So my point is: Reaching fluency in Japanese is one thing, having the chances to use it and making Japanese part of your brain is the big challenge.

gaijinalways

Feb 11, 2006, 19:08

Reaching fluency in Japanese is one thing, having the chances to use it and making Japanese part of your brain is the big challenge.

I would state you have define 'fluency'. If you mean speaking like a near native, some people will never reach that level, including especially pronunciation and idomatic usage-wise. But as to reaching high levels, I have seen people take anywhere from 5-10 years. Of course, the closer the langauge is to your native tongue, this will speed up the process of learning and possible mastery.

It's very true about the second part of god's statement. You really need to absorb a language in as many different ways as much as possible.

nurizeko

Mar 16, 2006, 21:16

Let me live in Japan for a year or two tops, i will have got the language down to near native.

Put me in a classroom, with fellow english speakers and enforcing a barely recognised no english rule and i will assure you i will take the better part of my life to get it down.

Learning a language needs motivation and immersion.

Mike Cash

Mar 17, 2006, 03:33

Let me live in Japan for a year or two tops, i will have got the language down to near native.

Thanks for giving me a good chuckle to start the day.

Maciamo

Mar 17, 2006, 03:56

My apologies for being slightly picky, but even though I think your English is quite good, I don't think I would rate it in the native category. The two errors displayed above I caught just skimming your post.

These are things that happen when you use several languages on a daily basis. I now use English, French and Japanese everyday, but my brain can only be switched to one language at a time, so I often encountered problems of translations, even in French (actually, even more than English recently, as I haven't really spoken it for many years). 1 hour ago again, I wanted to say that something had "halved" in 5 years in French, but there is no verb "to half" in French, so I stopped 5 seconds in the middle of my sentence to think about a translation, then when I realised there wasn't any, I reformulated my sentence. Likewise, I found out many words in French that gave me a hard time to translate into English (see my regularily updated list (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21309)). I used to have much less problems when I was living in England, speaking only English, or before that in Belgium speaking only French. All this to say that I experience the same "unnatural expressions" problem in both French and English. It really depends on the topic...

Gisela

Mar 27, 2006, 15:35

They don't really learn fast. That is due to many factors. Like America (which also has a problem with learning languages) Japan is an isolated country atleast compared to the European nations. Another part is the difference of phonetics. Japanese people can read and write pretty well even during the high school years. Many of them, however, have horrible pronounciations. Japanese has pretty simple sounds. English is just an abosolute puzzle to them when it comes to speaking. They don't have the open personality to speak out loud and they don't have a lot of interaction with english speakers.

dangdaga

Apr 21, 2006, 21:11

beblues

Jun 3, 2008, 13:47

Japanese People Have Awful Accent Even Not They Can Speak English As A Normal Way As Normal People Do...

Glenski

Jun 3, 2008, 14:54

Japanese people can read and write pretty well even during the high school years. I think you are going to have to clarify that one, or you need to take a look at my HS and university writing class papers.

Many of them, however, have horrible pronounciations.[sic] I would change that to "most".

caster51

Jun 3, 2008, 15:47

I think you are going to have to clarify that one, or you need to take a look at my HS and university writing class papers.

I think that their English levels are better than I.
Because my English language skill has hardly advanced since high school days. :relief:

Kirakira1232

Jun 3, 2008, 16:05

Japanese People Have Awful Accent Even Not They Can Speak English As A Normal Way As Normal People Do...

I have no idea why your attacking the Japanese accent. I dont think anyone finds any kind of second language particularly easy to speak at native fluency. Even if they do speak with a Japanese accent what is exactly wrong with that?

Even more of a question is how a thread from 2006 got ressurrected lol.

Derfel

Jun 3, 2008, 17:33

Japanese People Have Awful Accent Even Not They Can Speak English As A Normal Way As Normal People Do...

Your answer is here.

bruno

Jun 3, 2008, 22:50

Good english learning needs good and motivated teachers !
The native english teachers in general are neither skilled
nor motivated ! Just have fun in Japan !:souka:

Derfel

Jun 3, 2008, 23:22

Any manner of learning requires motivation from the one learning.
If someone wants to learn something no matter what, he will, and in case he won't, a good teacher won't be able to help either.
Learning for a piece of paper requires motivation to acquire a piece of paper, and thats all there is to it.
Its the same here in Hungary, people don't want to speak languages, they want to acquire papers.

dreamer

Jun 3, 2008, 23:28

I started learning english without the guidance of any teacher when I was 14and it wasn't the poor classes we had that helped me acquire vocabulary. I only started having good teacher 5 years ago, which in turn helped me to improve quite a bit.

Pachipro

Jun 3, 2008, 23:50

I think that their English levels are better than I.
Because my English language skill has hardly advanced since high school days.
I think you underestimate yourself Caster. At least you ARE trying and making an effort and using what you have learned. You are to be commended for that. It is not easy for someone to participate in a foreign language forum and you seem to be doing quite well. Therefore, IMO you are ahead of your peers or younger people as they would be too shy to even attempt to participate in a forum like this even if they knew more than you do.

Japanese people can read and write pretty well even during the high school years. Maybe they can read, but they sure cannot write without the aid of a test or something related to what they momorized and I have to agree with Glenski as I also have experienced it first hand. It is rare to find a decent written paper or short essay from a high school or even a college student unless they are hellbent on learning the language and just not going through the rote motions.

GodEmperorLeto

Jun 5, 2008, 00:43

Maybe they can read, but they sure cannot write without the aid of a test or something related to what they momorized and I have to agree with Glenski as I also have experienced it first hand. It is rare to find a decent written paper or short essay from a high school or even a college student unless they are hellbent on learning the language and just not going through the rote motions.
Taken out-of-context, this phrase could easily apply to American college students.

Good writing is hard to find nowadays. Teachers are trying to make kids write like cheap Time or Newsweek journalists. All my foreign students' essays read in this monotonous, formulaic style, and it drives me insane. The grammar mistakes that go hand-in-hand with learning English, I can cope with. But the standard 5-paragraph pattern, the obligatory "hook" at the beginning, these things are mind-numbing. I try to suggest my students read good essayists, and have been trying to find some skilled writers that they can emulate without being too challenged.

Teachers are part of the problem, and I'm not just speaking about the guys/gals doing the work in Japan. I'm also talking about the people who get MAs in TESOL at my university--they are indoctrinated with a variety of teaching methods that are somewhat contradictory. A linguistics grad student and friend of mine can't help but shudder when he hears about their language acquisition methods. Furthermore, since their TESOL certifications are given through a branch of the university Education Department, they are subjected to the standard Educratese brainwashing that all teachers have to go through. It isn't the teachers themselves, but how they have been trained, that is part of the problem. (But that isn't necessarily talking about the teachers in Japan.)

Finally, as Derfel said, the students need to be motivated. And believe me, motivation can go a long way. I've taught myself how to read Latin and French without any classes, and I'm actually quite good at it. However, because I have never practiced conversation (at least, not since high school), I cannot understand French at all when it is spoken, nor can I write in it. Some things, you simply need the interaction to acquire. You cannot learn a language solely from a book. Dead languages, that's fine, but to actually learn a tongue but not be able to speak it kind of defeats one of the reasons to learn in the first place. Motivation and practice are both required.

Derfel

Jun 5, 2008, 04:10

I recently did an IELTS test, and it was awesome. Basically, those people don't give a damn about one's grammar knowledge and whatnot.
It was all about vocabulary, and I mean jargon and such included, and understanding what the hell's written there. Oh yeah, and spelling, they said they're very strict about it, though I don't know if they only accept British spelling or not.
Anyhow, it was all about practical stuff, completely free of formulas and crap.
I didn't use a workbook or anything to prepare for it, which clearly proves that its completely about the practical stuff, and not exclusively taught "supergrammar".
People should adapt their methods imo.

Yan

Jun 9, 2008, 09:01

Charles Barkley

Jun 9, 2008, 09:35

I'm not sure but I think that's because of Second World War. Japan has been conquered by Americans and some military men married Japanese women and Japan became a bilingual country. I don't know if that's true but that's what my father told me.
Anyway, I suppose they have a great education system because Japaneses are really intelligent. Something's sure, the Japanese education system cannot be worst than Quebecer's one.

Japan became a bilingual country--> are you kidding?

great education system--> ??? But I shouldn't be so harsh, all non-scandanavian (and I am sure even a lot of schools there) school systems have their problems.

Japanese are really intelligent--> *sigh*

I don't mean this as a knock against Japan, since there are positives about the school system, an overall high level of education, and people here are as smart as people anywhere else (though you may want to drop the stereotype that they are smartER), but the English level in Japan is very very low.

An English language site like this will not attract your 'typical' Japanese (in terms of English ability).

Yan

Jun 9, 2008, 09:38

Is it possible to live in Tokyo without learning Japanese? I mean, without help of any japanese speaker.

JimmySeal

Jun 9, 2008, 11:14

Is it possible to live in Tokyo without learning Japanese? I mean, without help of any japanese speaker.

Are you asking this question rhetorically?
Yes there is a very large concentration of English speakers and English signage in Tokyo, but having that in one city does not make Japan a bilingual country.

Yan

Jun 9, 2008, 11:22

I understand. Anyway, everybody is bilingual in Montreal too and it doesn't mean that Saguenéens are also bilingual. I think that all big cities around the world are a littie bit bilingual.

Mars Man

Jun 9, 2008, 11:28

I am a little surprize that Glenski san would answer a poster who has not been on line since 2006, but, then again, that is the fun and free-for-all of which a discussion board can sometimes offer...hee, hee, hee...(of course the bumper, beblues, is up to something...)

We all know, so there should be no contest. Some Japanese people learn English quickly, some don't. Why do those who learn quickly, learn quickly? That answer lies in the brain states of those people, far more than not. To discuss all the elements that would make up such a brain state, would be beyond the scope of this particular thread, however, so . . .

Having a good coach, is of course a big booster for the learning process, but having a mind to learn is the fertile, nutrient rich soil in which learning takes root, pulls in the nutrients, and multiplies itself. You could have the best teacher in the world, so to speak, and get no results from the brain that cannot do the learning or will not do the learning.

(and I thought this thead would again go back to its resting grounds after beblues. . . slaps myself in the slap with a wake up call. . . )

Glenski

Jun 9, 2008, 15:38

I am a little surprize that Glenski san would answer a poster who has not been on line since 2006, Slow day in the office, plus not enough caffeine...

Prizm

Jun 23, 2008, 20:23

Is it possible to live in Tokyo without learning Japanese? I mean, without help of any japanese speaker.

Man, that would be really tough. Knowing a little bit helped me a lot when I visited, but actually living there would be a different story.

Yan

Jun 30, 2008, 02:29

It's a good new. Japanese people are still not completely americanised.

uchimizu

Jul 5, 2008, 20:36

Here are my 2 cents. Some japanese may not learn conversation in a foreign language very quickly as they are very afraid of making mistakes, and would only speak if they are sure the sentence is correct.

I learned japanese conversation through trial and error, and sometimes, it seems I made my japanese interlocutors laungh quite a lot. However, after 1/2 years in the country, I could have a fluent conversation.

Kayumi

Jul 27, 2008, 19:29

By what I've been seeing, japanese don't speak english that well, but then again, there are a lot of exceptions. I myself learnt how to speak english in 5 years (3 hours a week for 50 months, basic grammar and vocabulary in the 5th grade 'til the harder grammer in the 11th), but what helped me the most were the videogames, playing Pokémon as a child helped me a lot. Japanese do speak english, but in Japanese.

alantin

Jul 27, 2008, 22:02

Kayumi

Jul 27, 2008, 22:20

I can understand how a japanese person moving to an English speaking country might give out an illusion of fast learning since at first he wouldn't be able to understand or produce speech but once he gets the hang of it, he would be able to tap into all the info gained from years upon years of studying grammar and translation.

Exactly. The best way to learn a language is to emerse ourselves in the language's country or to find a boy/girlfriend from that same country.
I speak english and spanish fluently, but if I eventually go to a spanish/english speaking country, my language skills will get much better since I will talk 24/7 to those languages natives/speakers.

With japanese its the same thing.

Glenski

Jul 27, 2008, 22:20

alantin

Jul 27, 2008, 23:09

Eikaiwa is the Japanese word for English conversation, even though many/most people use it as the name for the school that helps teach such.
In eikaiwa schools, teachers have classes of 2-10 students of varying ages. They spend 45-90 minutes (depending on the school) going over grammar points that were usually taught in junior and senior high.
...
Ideally, such places serve to review the grammar in a casual, friendly, useful way and give students time to talk about 80% of the period. In reality, things are a gray area.

Hence, me wondering the name..

How about "英文法". Sounds like it would be more appropriate. :okashii:
Thanks for the explanation Glenski! That was pretty much what I thought it would be.

I once attended this really great English conversation class here in Finland. We would gather into a comfortable, cozy, little room and each time someone would bring a subject we would discuss. A newspaper article or something like that, that we would read before the conversation.
Then after an hour or so of discussion the teacher would correct some mistakes that were made frequently and give some hints for how to speak more naturally. This would take up to 10 or 15 minutes.

It was a really great format and I learned a lot! True "英会話" :cool:

I disagree. Many people, including myself, are immersed with girlfriends/boyfriends/spouses who can't or won't teach. Being "immersed" if you teach English in Japan is a horrible way to learn Japanese. You are always "on" during work, and are prohibited from using Japanese in the classroom. Many teachers hang out only with native English speaking friends who don't care to learn the language and who put peer pressure on you to go out with them (and speak only English, often to bad-mouth the school or country).

I will have to say that I believe strongly in immersion being the single best thing for language studies although that requires actually getting "immersed" to an environment in which you have to use the language to survive..
I thought I could speak Japanese when I went to Japan (I had been studying it by myself for about three years) but noticed soon how dead wrong I was. After three months of daily having to use it to get the simpliest things done, I could truly say that I could make myself understood in Japanese.

It was not perfect but I could ask for directions, have some sort of conversations with people, etc. I truly learned more in those three months than in the previous three years and even that short stay really gave a boost to my studies.

It takes self-discipline, not immersion or an intimate friend, to learn the language.

I do agree 110% in that it takes self-dicipline!
I learned basics of English in school, but I really started understanding it when I began to read books, watch stuff in TV, play computer games, chat in the internet, and talk with people in English.

Using it to do all kinds of fun stuff was what really teached me and the same goes for Japanese too.

To reach the point where doing "fun stuff" stops being a burden and actually becomes fun is where some serious dedication and self discipline is needed but there too some real immersion can make it a great deal easier. :cool:

Btw. If you learn from your spouse, don't you just end up speakin the wrong way..? I.e. a guy speaking like a girl.
So no luck there..

KirinMan

Jul 28, 2008, 06:00

I think it helps to think of Eikaiwa's in Japan as the schools that you never graduate from!

Glenski

Jul 28, 2008, 06:40

I once attended this really great English conversation class here in Finland. We would gather into a comfortable, cozy, little room and each time someone would bring a subject we would discuss. A newspaper article or something like that, that we would read before the conversation.
Then after an hour or so of discussion the teacher would correct some mistakes that were made frequently and give some hints for how to speak more naturally. This would take up to 10 or 15 minutes.I once taught a class at eikaiwa with a similar format. Nobody read their news clippings beforehand.

I changed tactics on this higher level group and asked each one to bring in a news clipping every week. They had so summarize in a sentence or two, or just express their opinion if the topic was well-known, and then we chatted about it. I merely moderated. Worked very well.

However, that may have been just my luck. Some of the students were carryovers from previous classes I taught there, so they were comfortable with me, and maybe that helped the atmosphere for the others. Most people who go to eikaiwa just want to socialize with each other or the teacher and perhaps pick up some English as they do it, instead of studying hard to master the language.

I will have to say that I believe strongly in immersion being the single best thing for language studies although that requires actually getting "immersed" to an environment in which you have to use the language to survive..It is good, indeed. A friend of mine got posted to a rural area and was forced to learn that way. No bilingual signs in town, no really semi-fluent locals. Of course, he learned only the street talk grammar, and when he faced situations where he should have used more polite Japanese, he failed miserably, but he shrugged it off saying, "I'm not Japanese. I'm a foreigner, so they cut me slack." Perhaps some did, but I know for a fact that some didn't and just didn't tell him.

Immersion, experienced (ideally, licensed) Japanese tutor, and lots of practice time are the best combination, of course.

Btw. If you learn from your spouse, don't you just end up speakin the wrong way..? I.e. a guy speaking like a girl.
So no luck there..Doesn't work that way if either of you realizes what you are doing, but it IS something to be aware of.

~AXI's.black.neko~

Jul 28, 2008, 06:59

KirinMan

Jul 28, 2008, 07:54

i think learning other languages is difficult for Japanese people because of their language/writing/grammar system that is very different than other languages and because it depends on using characters as well and they start learning it by the age 4 i think,please correct me if im wrong.
for me i find learning English is very easy though some of my friends find it very difficult.
before i learned English my English was actually good and i improved it in just one year.
i think the environment is what really helps in learning other languages faster then anything.
Kids start "officially" learning Japanese when they enter Kindergarten here, around age 6. However just about every kid I know is being taught from a much younger age.

In my opinion learning English here, which happens to be a multi-billion dollar a year industry, is a fad to many. There are so many different reasons why people want to learn but most fail to take it seriously enough to actually "master" the language.

But what is "mastering" English? Being able to pass the Eiken Step Test? Being able to carry on a simple conversation with a native speaker of English? Watching a movie with out having to read the sub-titles?

The majority of people here that I know who speak English well use it on a daily basis in their work. They constantly are using the language so their level is much higher than most.

But what about the rest? Of course the language of Japan is not English. What's the point of having 120 million or so people speak English when the overwhelming majority will never have a need for it in their daily lives.

That is something that I have regularly scratched my head about.