Is it possible to see...

[Mamoru-kun]

..something else than shemale-zombies-style JPop singers here? I don't say that I have something against those (almost non-)human gothic singers, with strange piercing breaking their faces, false eyes, false hair, false a-lot-of-things (...ho well, OK OK, I say it!), but would it be possible to see more posts (and please don't say "Post yourself then!") about more -natural- singers, singers which feel good in their life (at least that's what they are showing), who dress normally, who act normally (no sex-related behavior on scene)? Reading the recent posts, it's as if JPop is only ruled by post-apocalyptic hard rockers nowadays...where are the good old-one, "Dream Comes True", "Zard", "Speed", "Every Little Thing" (I know I know, ten years ago groups, but they were great)? Have they all disappeared?

PS: sorry if I offended some people...it was just not (especially) intended :p
PS2: don't flame me please!...I'm just a poor normal-human being who don't understand that dark face of Humans... :worried: :relief:

[hebiichigo]

You don't intent to offend people by calling some of our favourite artists "shemale zombies" and other insulting things? Well, sorry, I'm already offended.

And I know you said to not tell you to post yourself, but seriously, start your own thread about something you like. Otherwise it probably won't happen. We're not starting topics about music that we're not interested in, but maybe you can show us something else, then?

Also what the heck is "normal"?! And who are we to judge what is normal for others? These bands are the norm for me.

:okashii:

[hayakuchan]

hebiichigo is right... start your own thread about what you like... is it a problem? :?

well, saying "almost non-human gothic singers" is a problem.... :wary:

[pinkkillerkisou]

I think the "shemale zombies" (:okashii:) you refer to are beautiful. :blush:

There are plenty of non-visual bands (which is probably a better term to use) out there. Are you actually looking for recommendations or just to ask if they exist and want pictorial proof. :D

[Mamoru-kun]

Sorry sorry, that's true, I used too much bad words... :p Strange to hear perhaps, but I personnaly like their songs, not a joke. I just don't understand their way of showing themself arround (especially the piercings, and the way they try to look like girls). But well, I understand that some people...well, like that kind of things. But my question is still open: what happened to the...more usual (if you permit me) ancien groups?

[pinkkillerkisou]

Well then why is the image an issue. You dont HAVEto look at them you know. Looks are just icing on the cake... it's the music that matters. It's just a style... and I can tell you why they dress that way. It's quite simple and a bit sad. It sells... simple as that. Unfortunately though some bands are all image and crap music... :relief:

When you say ancient... your mean like how long ago exactly? :lol:

Which bands do you like... I might be able to recommend some similar bands to your tastes that are easier on your eyes. :?

[lastmagi]

Hm... I guess I don't mind the "shemale zombies" if the music is good as much as the heavy bias towards them. The bias is actually pretty counter-productive.

The problem with posting about bands not within the norms of this board is that it gets easily pushed back in favor of other bands, even though they may not have much merit. As much as Jmusic fans champion variety in their music, the discussions here are unbelievably predictable.

Well then why is the image an issue. You dont HAVEto look at them you know.

Er...

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19227
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16970
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17852
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19220
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17922

Just the first few band-related threads shown on the page, as a sample. Maybe I'm mistaken, but just about all of them have large images more or less shoved in your face.

[pinkkillerkisou]

This is true... I have post exceptional bands... one of them is Aushvitz... not that attractive... but one of the best bands I have ever had the pleasure of listening too. Galneryus is another good one... Syu the guitarist of Galneryus is the vocalist/guitarist of Aushvitz... he is incredibly talented... but I havent made a thread for Galneryus yet. :sorry: god knows how farback the Aushvitz thread is... but you can't help the fact that the popular bands get the attention... unless you start killing off fangirls of these more popular bands... :lol:

Yea... that's true too :relief: Most are female fans on this JPop board... and they like their eye candy, that they do. ^^;

[hayakuchan]

Sorry sorry, that's true, I used too much bad words... :p Strange to hear perhaps, but I personnaly like their songs, not a joke. I just don't understand their way of showing themself arround (especially the piercings, and the way they try to look like girls). But well, I understand that some people...well, like that kind of things. But my question is still open: what happened to the...more usual (if you permit me) ancien groups?

well... it's because of people's tastes...

i mean... people commonly like something that's not really usual and attractive (in this case, for us, visual bands are more attractive than non-visual ones). so people need to discuss more about it. more. there're plenty of visual bands... they're plenty. they're interesting. there're more and more! --> i hope u get it :relief: :relief:

but for me, it doesn't mean the non-visual bands are not good. they are good. hey, i like Spitz and Do As Infinity you know... :-)

[Mamoru-kun]

When you say ancient... your mean like how long ago exactly? :lol:

Which bands do you like... I might be able to recommend some similar bands to your tastes that are easier on your eyes. :?
Well, perhaps no more than what I wrote before: Zard, Every Little Thing, Dream Comes True,.... In fact, I am personally not looking for songs of those groups, or similar groups (Internet is an easy engine for that), but I was more wondering why those groups topics disappeared (if ever existed) from the forums. And also why they've been replaced by those...how would you classify them? Well, I don't want to use the expressions I used before, but you know what kind of groups I am speaking about. I'm not the one thinking that good songs just "die", so why is nobody speaking about the good past songs (80s and 90s JPop music), in general.

(Note: to tell the truth, my first post was too offensive, I admit it (and I indeed did it that way, shame on me)...but I have to say that, just before posting it, I was wandering in this JPop part of the forum, and found a girl that I thought very attractive. Well...perhaps 30 seconds before writing my post, I was shocked as I understood that "she" was a boy's band singer... :bluush: :relief: and that's why I posted in fact. But that's not an excuse, I know)

[Horizon]

Last time I checked, they weren't gothic. Just visual. :okashii:

As for me, I don't really know any "normal" bands and, quite frankly, who cares about the clothes one wears or what they wear as accessories? Caring about that is rather shallow. Especially considering how you don't even have to look at 'em, like has already been stated.

Oh! And, also, you offended me as well, but ehh...:okashii:

As for your non-excuse, well...We females who are completely and utterly straight can and will gladly state rather another girl is pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, et cetera. What I can't understand to a certain degree is why men can't do the same? Are you all just that 'homophobic' or something? :okashii:

Just the first few band-related threads shown on the page, as a sample. Maybe I'm mistaken, but just about all of them have large images more or less shoved in your face.

Precisely. Threads. With titles that plainly and clearly say what the topic is about. If one does not want to look at these people, not only do they need some medication quickly, then perhaps they should either read the titles or start using their brains? I mean, jeez! Lots and lots of fans WANT to see who they listen to so much after all. So it's only common sense really...Not to mention I do so believe one of the reasons people make these threads are to either get people interested in the band or give more information about them, so, ummm...Yeah...Pictures help us to see who is who. 'Tis also plain and complete common logic type of thing there too.

[rose_of_eternity]

Also what the heck is "normal"?! And who are we to judge what is normal for others? These bands are the norm for me.

:okashii:

I completely agree, these bands are normal, original, creative, and talented :okashii: false eyes/hair/bodies? er no, just because they wear contacts, dye their hair and have nice bodies doesnt make them "fake" :auch: a good example of fake = Britney Spears, Michael Jackson, Eminem.... THEYRE fake, jrockers arent... Natural singers you say? Well they are natural singers... what ever, an opinion is an opinion, but then again, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all :okashii:


Just the first few band-related threads shown on the page, as a sample. Maybe I'm mistaken, but just about all of them have large images more or less shoved in your face.

Its an introduction of the band to people who have never seen/heard them before, if you're not interested, then don't look o_O; you can always just block images, so yeah, no reason to complain about the pictures :souka:


As for your non-excuse, well...We females who are completely and utterly straight can and will gladly state rather another girl is pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, et cetera. What I can't understand to a certain degree is why men can't do the same? Are you all just that 'homophobic' or something? :okashii:

Yes, I don't understand that either... I'm bisexual, so yeah I look at girls, but my straight friends won't deny that a girl is pretty/attractive when they see one. Guys are just stupid, insecure, and they have too much unneeded pride, which pisses the sh!t out of me... :okashii::auch:

Another reason why I love Gakuto:


"Its not that I like men sexually, just that I can admit when they are beautiful."

Takes a real man to admit that :cool:

[duff_o_josh]

mamoru-kun is absolutely right, you have turn this section into a place of not jpop but japanese gothic culture. there is a big difference between the two. not only have you done that but you mock him personally when all he did was post a comment about these "pop" stars that are absolutely ridiculous. make up hair and costumes are a big thing but these guys dont know how to rock. not one bit. when i try to read one of your threads all it is a spam section dedicated to how cute one of the guys are, when do you talk about the technicallity of the guitar riff in that one song, or the meaning of lyrics in another? do you do things like this?

[lastmagi]

As for me, I don't really know any "normal" bands and, quite frankly, who cares about the clothes one wears or what they wear as accessories?

This point seems well made at first, but let’s delve further. I see a pattern. Most, if not all, of the bands discussed here involve having archetypical makeup and costumes. In order to not care about the visuals and accessories, there must be an equally random distribution of both these bands and bands that don’t exhibit these visual traits, because music and visuals do not necessarily correlate (see below). But the heavy skew of the threads are towards visual bands. So, underneath it all, who really cares about visuals, or at least Visual Kei? I know I for one do not- I listen to both VK and non-VK bands.

Especially considering how you don't even have to look at 'em, like has already been stated.

I’ve already addressed this point. See above post.

As for your non-excuse, well...We females who are completely and utterly straight can and will gladly state rather another girl is pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, et cetera. What I can't understand to a certain degree is why men can't do the same?

The point here made is unfortunately counter-productive, particularly for feminists. For starters, it tries to defend by using a stereotype which hurts both sides (women understand beauty and art, men don’t). Secondly, it simplifies the reasoning behind why some people (which you generalized to be “men” from Mamoru-kun) don’t like what they see: because they are afraid of being seen as gay. But to only see that reason is to deny the existence of others. Perhaps some see the images as gimmicky. Or too eccentric. Or the makeup too overdone (much as women who use too much makeup end up worse off). Perhaps we see it as an overused device used over and over again. The tastes may not fit the viewer (more likely.) The “art” is contrived and too artificial. Whatever the reason, it cannot be simplified to what you suggest.

GQ, by the way, features very handsome men on the covers. Many men subscribe to the magazine.

Precisely. Threads. With titles that plainly and clearly say what the topic is about. If one does not want to look at these people, not only do they need some medication quickly, then perhaps they should either read the titles or start using their brains? I mean, jeez! Lots and lots of fans WANT to see who they listen to so much after all. So it's only common sense really...Not to mention I do so believe one of the reasons people make these threads are to either get people interested in the band or give more information about them, so, ummm...Yeah...Pictures help us to see who is who. 'Tis also plain and complete common logic type of thing there too.

Again, you simplify, as well as ignore the point of what I wrote. Part of the issue is not THAT there are pictures, but that the pictures are placed in the forefront of everything. It’s the first thing you see, the largest thing you see, and the last thing I care about. It’s true to a degree that bands benefit from pictures to round out for the public who they are. But to put up so many 600x800 size pictures of bands in uninteresting makeup is overdoing things, unwarranted, and fails to bring in more people unused to this but may potentially like it. I doubt supporters of Koizumi flash cosmetically refined images of him in all his hot manliness everywhere they go, nor will it win me over.

Also, I’ve found that the band’s images often do not reflect their music. Elegantly costumed artists can be either good heavy rockers or, er, bad heavy rockers. So why should I trust their image to lead me to their music? There is little to no correlation between looks and music, and one should not be tempted to superficially think so.

Another point I was trying to make was more about the genre. I know VK bands do not stay completely rock, and sometimes experiment a bit. But by and large they are rock. I know (or hope) that J-Music is more diverse than just rock-oriented and pop-oriented bands. For my part, I’d like to hear more outside of that boundary. Otherwise, what I hear starts to get stale, as do the discussions.

Moving along.
Natural singers you say? Well they are natural singers...

Ever heard of Kana? She seems a bit too natural, eh.

what ever, an opinion is an opinion, but then again, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all

Kinda like in China, or any totalitarian regime. Damn critics!

Its an introduction of the band to people who have never seen/heard them before, if you're not interested, then don't look o_O;

The pictures are not necessary. They’re overdone (if you’d read what I wrote, you’d see that was what I was saying). I’m always interested in trying out new bands, but that means wading through piles of uninteresting pictures and superficial commentary (“I liek the voice”). In the end, I don’t bother to look since the discussions that follow aren’t that great, but it’s the sheer number of people who follow this format that makes J-Music not conducive to new kinds of discussions.

you can always just block images, so yeah, no reason to complain about the pictures

Just for the JPop section? I doubt it; I go to other sections, too. Besides, I’m not one to simply ignore and pretend the state of JPop/Rock discussions isn’t going the way it is. I’m a fan too.

Guys are just stupid, insecure, and they have too much unneeded pride

Thanks.

More to come...

[isayhello]

Try Miyavi, he's normal! ... at least last time I checked he wasn't a she-male zombie :okashii: :okashii: :okashii:

This is. .interesting. I'll be back! *runs away*

[Dollporn]

lastemagi. Damn it, what part of 'you don't have to look' don't you understand?
If you don't want to look at the bands, then keep away from the posts, and since it's mostly spam in here anyway(which I admit it is), why come here at all?
And make up your mind, you say you think the pictures unteresting, then why are you so mad about them. If you don't care, you don't mind, right?

To some other person, there are discussions about songs people like, only most of us don't know japanese(therefor can't discuss the meaning of the lyrics), or play an instrument so we don't go "Oh, I like that riff." "Yeah and the naext one is kind of dull, but then there's...."

duff_o_josh: You can't say it's been made into a discussion about japanese gothic culture, because few of these bands actually have a gothic image.
There are lots of Oshare-kei bands(like Panic Channel, An Cafe, Kra), which can hardly be called gothic.

Mamoru-kun: I know that there was a thread for Dreams come True(Don't know about the others), but it dissappeared. It's quite obvious then that people aren't interested.
Either they're too old, or people just don't like them. That's as simple as it is.
The reason why I don't support the threads on non-visual bands (I really can't speak for everyone in here) is simply that I havn't found any that interest me.
The ones I've seen are pop-skate-punk or guitar-pop bands.
WOW! YES! It's because of the music they play!

[Mamoru-kun]

As for your non-excuse, well...We females who are completely and utterly straight can and will gladly state rather another girl is pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, et cetera. What I can't understand to a certain degree is why men can't do the same? Are you all just that 'homophobic' or something? :okashii:
No no, quite the oposite. I'm not against boys at all. I would even say that if I would have been gay, I would have probably boy hunt some people (Ricky Martin for exemple ;-)). What makes me sick is when I see boys, who could indeed be pretty, showing like girls in JPop shows. That's what -I- don't understand...

Something else I'd like to be explained: someone told me that such groups (and/or gothic groups) are dressing the way they do to become special, to get out of the sheeps herd (sorry, it's perhaps only a french expression). But well, now there is soo much groups like that the the entire sheeps herd became gothic (or whatever you call it...VK, is it right?). Then there, where is the difference between them?

[Mamoru-kun]

Natural singers you say? Well they are natural singers... what ever, an opinion is an opinion, but then again, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all :okashii:
Right, and I already said sorry for that...

[Mamoru-kun]

Try Miyavi, he's normal! ... at least last time I checked he wasn't a she-male zombie :okashii: :okashii: :okashii:

This is. .interesting. I'll be back! *runs away*
Well...with all due respect, if that Miyavi is the one showing in the images of your signature...yes, you're right, I don't think that zombies do insane things as he does. But frankly, I hope that my two childs won't grow up in a world filled with too much people like that... :okashii:

PS: once again, I don't say anything about his mucis (which I've probably never heard BTW). I'm just reacting about his behaviour and his please-look-at-me way of dressing...

[Mamoru-kun]

Mamoru-kun: I know that there was a thread for Dreams come True(Don't know about the others), but it dissappeared. It's quite obvious then that people aren't interested.
Either they're too old, or people just don't like them. That's as simple as it is
That's too bad to hear, but it's what I was thinking...Not that the new groups make bad songs, far from it, but well...Anyway, thank you for the info.

[hebiichigo]

duff_o_josh: You can't say it's been made into a discussion about japanese gothic culture, because few of these bands actually have a gothic image.
There are lots of Oshare-kei bands(like Panic Channel, An Cafe, Kra), which can hardly be called gothic.

yes :p Visual Kei does not equal "gothic".. "Visual" Kei is a very broad category. What's more, it's not a genre of music. The way a band dresses will not always determine how they sound.

These bands are called VISUAL kei for a reason. A lot of the focus is MEANT to be on their VISUAL APPEARANCE.

I'd love to discuss lyrics. I'm obsessed with song lyrics. But it's hard because many people here aren't familiar with the lyrics or the Japanese language. And I can't really discuss music because I don't know much about it technically. I just know what I like. And I like bands that aren't VK, too :cool:

:relief:

... Miyavi and "normal" don't belong in the same sentence! :lol: just kidding..? XD

[Dollporn]

Wow. I put in an agressive argument and NO ONE'S hated me so far. Heehee. This just made my day! :-)

[furan]

can i just say something?

take the makeup and dress off you're typical Jrocker.... but them on your *cough* normal average teenage western guy... and what do you get?
exactly what i see everytime i walk by the clock tower in my town... (only, they'd have better style, but close enough)

you can't seriously say these things, when this style is EVERYwhere.... the only difference is, is that the nations from far east Asia tend to have very androgenous apperences, and so becasue they are wearing style-ish clothing and makeup, people presume they are female...
men in Japan have been dressing 'femininly' for over 200 hears, so you cannot POSSIBLY hold this against them....

YES, visual kei is pretty much limited to Japan.... but the aspects of it lie everywhere... Marilyn Mandson IS VK... and is recognised as it by the Japanese media....
look at what people think of him?
but... you look at any heavey metal band, of gothic metal, and you will see VERY similar things...
the fact is, girls, in general, have better clothing... there is SO much more you can do with it... so... as soon as they start wearing elaborate clothing, it bgins to look feminin...
i don't wanna get too heavily into this.... but..... for you're comment's about "nomal", i'm sorry, but i really feel you need a slap for that... because it's comments like that that have lead to me being beaten up on sveral ocations, just because i'm not "normal"

YES, there ARE bands who don;t do this... and i actually really adore the pants off every little thing.... i think their musics great, andthe mebers are juat as gorgeous as the next band...

the fact is... this bord is now heavily domminated by Jrock, and these bands are Jpop...
don;t know if you've noticed this lately... but all accross the world, i thin rock is getting paye a lot more attention, and pop is just... gone....
if you like, rock is the new pop (or, at least it's tied with the hip hop scene)

it's the same with any type of group discusion, people bring up the topics that they want to discuss, and that they know/hope will go down well...
mos of the people on this bord are under 20, and yes, we do talk about music, BUT, when the visual aspct of a band is such as it is here, we'd be stupid to ignore that...

i'd like to direct you to a thread here - http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19076
it talks about the differences between visual and music...

but, can i also say...
when someone introduces a new band... people tend to take a look, and if they like the music, they'll accept to likeing the band... BUT... if there's only the music that appeals to them... then there,s only the music to talk about, and i don't know how many of us here are musicians, but... talk where we can simply laugh and be girly and such with eachother, is much more appealing than a detainled discussion about music and such, right?
(however, i'd love to do that, but that's because... i am a musician :rlief:)

yeah, i guess what i'm saying is, the threads that are up top, are up top, because everyone can take part in them, and there's a lot more to discuss than just their music....

[Mamoru-kun]

Wow. I put in an agressive argument and NO ONE'S hated me so far. Heehee. This just made my day! :-)
As far as your aggressive argument is constructive...;-)

[Dollporn]

As far as your aggressive argument is constructive...;-)

Yay! I've finally done it. It's pretty important to me.

furan: You're right.You've said a lot of correct things here. This forum is for fun, so we can be fan girlish and just plain boppers.
And the thing about rock being the new pop is sort of right. Maybe pop is dying. For nao anyway.

[Mamoru-kun]

(remark from my post in the "Vidoll" topic)

...but I'm sure that their songs would have still be as good without their clothings (don't mean nude, of course!) ;-)

[Anchyyy]

(remark from my post in the "Vidoll" topic)

...but I'm sure that their songs would have still be as good without their clothings (don't mean nude, of course!) ;-)

Yeah right but then they wouldnt be visuals :relief: Well they look perfectly fine to me. And their music is good too! :p

[furan]

that's like saying.... Iron Maiden would be exactly the same wihouth their leather pants and chains....

... if Iron Maiden looked like westilfe.... you can just imagin the difference in their popularity...

the fact is, they WANT to dress like ths... why should our biggotted opinions of it stop them?

[Mamoru-kun]

that's like saying.... Iron Maiden would be exactly the same wihouth their leather pants and chains....
............you got one point there.

[hebiichigo]

Vidoll's music is very good. Well in my opinion :-)

And, yeah, without that look they couldn't be considered "visual kei", wouldn't have the same kind of fans, popularity etc. They want to dress like that, and they can stop if they want to :p Also, when they (ie Visual Kei bands) are in private time they tend to not dress in the same 'extreme' way they do in photoshoot pictures. Because those clothes are really like costumes, and it's all for show and entertainment :blush:

[Horizon]

mamoru-kun is absolutely right, you have turn this section into a place of not jpop but japanese gothic culture. there is a big difference between the two. not only have you done that but you mock him personally when all he did was post a comment about these "pop" stars that are absolutely ridiculous. make up hair and costumes are a big thing but these guys dont know how to rock. not one bit. when i try to read one of your threads all it is a spam section dedicated to how cute one of the guys are, when do you talk about the technicallity of the guitar riff in that one song, or the meaning of lyrics in another? do you do things like this?

Again, they are NOT gothic. They are visual kei, but nice try anyway! :p

And I do not see a "JRock" forum anywhere, so where the Hell are we supposed to talk about it?

Also, why should we really? Firstly, I can't even tell the difference between guitars and base guitars, so I really couldn't do that and, as for lyrics, normally I don't even look them up. I do not need to know what they're saying to enjoy the music. Sometimes I might look 'em up and all, however, I don't usually, so I couldn't do that either. What's left then, besides from pictures? This:

"Ohmigawd! I love -insert random J-band here- so, so much!"

"I know! Me too!"

"Me three!"

"Me fourth!"

"Me fifth!"

"Oh, oh! I do too! <3"

"Ditto, ditto! Who's your favorite? Mine's -insert bandmember's name from random J-band-"

Et cetera, et cetera.

Not to mention the general atmosphere-type thing here that I'm receiving is that we all mostly find that it's a given that we like the band for the music and, well, as you may just be able to tell with the dialogue above, saying how much you love them kind of gets old fast.

And, again, if one doesn't like the pictures, don't go into the THREADS!!

Last two things: first of all, who the Hell are you to know what real "rocking" is? Are you what now? The almighty Deity of Rock n' Roll or some equally as bull-crapped-up thing? And secondly: when did we mock the thread-maker? Not to mention, even if we did, he did insult them for no reason whatsoever, so he'd only be getting kind of what he deserves then.

[RockLee]

Mamoru-kun, recently you posted nothing but threads filled with criticism.Must be because you're a Wallonian :D Yet I agree that that JRef is becoming more and more a playground for J-music and especially VK.
In the past I've posted a thread similar to this, but to no avail.

On the other hand, if you don't like it, you shouldn't go to those threads.That's the only advice I could tell you.You should respect other people's opinions too and if they like watching androgenic guys, it's their problem ;-)

[Horizon]

This point seems well made at first, but let’s delve further. I see a pattern. Most, if not all, of the bands discussed here involve having archetypical makeup and costumes. In order to not care about the visuals and accessories, there must be an equally random distribution of both these bands and bands that don’t exhibit these visual traits, because music and visuals do not necessarily correlate (see below). But the heavy skew of the threads are towards visual bands. So, underneath it all, who really cares about visuals, or at least Visual Kei? I know I for one do not- I listen to both VK and non-VK bands.

Then, again, make your own damn thread! Ohgmigawd! 'Tis not THAT difficult a thing to do. The reason I don't do these things is because I don't KNOW any of these bands. Enlighten me about them then instead of bitching and complaining about how the forum is completely and utterly filled up with visual kei. DO something about it! Just likes lots and lots of people say: if you want something done, do it yourself. Good advice that, so I advise you listen to it for once! :p


I’ve already addressed this point. See above post.

Very crappily at that! :p


The point here made is unfortunately counter-productive, particularly for feminists. For starters, it tries to defend by using a stereotype which hurts both sides (women understand beauty and art, men don’t). Secondly, it simplifies the reasoning behind why some people (which you generalized to be “men” from Mamoru-kun) don’t like what they see: because they are afraid of being seen as gay. But to only see that reason is to deny the existence of others. Perhaps some see the images as gimmicky. Or too eccentric. Or the makeup too overdone (much as women who use too much makeup end up worse off). Perhaps we see it as an overused device used over and over again. The tastes may not fit the viewer (more likely.) The “art” is contrived and too artificial. Whatever the reason, it cannot be simplified to what you suggest.

I was generalizing a bit, yes, however:

I have to say that, just before posting it, I was wandering in this JPop part of the forum, and found a girl that I thought very attractive. Well...perhaps 30 seconds before writing my post, I was shocked as I understood that "she" was a boy's band singer...

And what? The person becomes hideously ugly 'cause he ain't a chick? Uh-uh...The thing I said about that seems quite good in this situation.

Not to mention I never once did mention that men can't understand beauty and art, but, again, good try anyway! :p

GQ, by the way, features very handsome men on the covers. Many men subscribe to the magazine.

And I doubt it's for the men. Now, if lots of straight men start subscribing to Playgirl (for themselves mind you), I'll totally be swayed. Really.



Again, you simplify, as well as ignore the point of what I wrote. Part of the issue is not THAT there are pictures, but that the pictures are placed in the forefront of everything. It’s the first thing you see, the largest thing you see, and the last thing I care about. It’s true to a degree that bands benefit from pictures to round out for the public who they are. But to put up so many 600x800 size pictures of bands in uninteresting makeup is overdoing things, unwarranted, and fails to bring in more people unused to this but may potentially like it.

But the posters like these kind of things and we do not believe the make-up to be "uninteresting". Again, I say it: make your own damn thread and then you have a good reason to start bitching and complaing IF it flops. Possibly.

Also, I’ve found that the band’s images often do not reflect their music. Elegantly costumed artists can be either good heavy rockers or, er, bad heavy rockers. So why should I trust their image to lead me to their music? There is little to no correlation between looks and music, and one should not be tempted to superficially think so.

You shouldn't. Personally, again, I just like the purdy piccies, especially since they have a tendency to help me find out who is who.

Another point I was trying to make was more about the genre. I know VK bands do not stay completely rock, and sometimes experiment a bit. But by and large they are rock. I know (or hope) that J-Music is more diverse than just rock-oriented and pop-oriented bands. For my part, I’d like to hear more outside of that boundary. Otherwise, what I hear starts to get stale, as do the discussions.

Then AGAIN! MAKE ONE! If you want more people to discuss something you are interested in, start it up!




The pictures are not necessary.

Ummmm...Pictures ARE necessary. I like to know what the band LOOKS like and, especially, be able to tell who is who once again. Not to mention, the pictures are quite pleasing to the eye. It's not a the most important thing of course, but I still like to know and see.

[Horizon]

No no, quite the oposite. I'm not against boys at all. I would even say that if I would have been gay, I would have probably boy hunt some people (Ricky Martin for exemple ;-)). What makes me sick is when I see boys, who could indeed be pretty, showing like girls in JPop shows. That's what -I- don't understand...

Something else I'd like to be explained: someone told me that such groups (and/or gothic groups) are dressing the way they do to become special, to get out of the sheeps herd (sorry, it's perhaps only a french expression). But well, now there is soo much groups like that the the entire sheeps herd became gothic (or whatever you call it...VK, is it right?). Then there, where is the difference between them?

They can be quite pretty without being a guy once again...One does not need female organs to be pretty whatsoever. That what I do not understand. Why do the genders have to play such different roles? If a guy wants and does look pretty, he is indeed pretty. Nothing to it. Simple as that.

And of course you'd be boy-hunting if you were gay. That's a given really.

I've never heard that, so I can't explain it.

And, really now, do I need to go find a link to some REAL gothic bands and artists? And get some page that explains what gothic music is? Jeez...:relief:

[Horizon]

Well...with all due respect, if that Miyavi is the one showing in the images of your signature...yes, you're right, I don't think that zombies do insane things as he does. But frankly, I hope that my two childs won't grow up in a world filled with too much people like that... :okashii:

PS: once again, I don't say anything about his mucis (which I've probably never heard BTW). I'm just reacting about his behaviour and his please-look-at-me way of dressing...

Again, you resort to what sounds to be insults. Why must you keep doing this, hmm? Especially if you truly did apologize for doing it before? Tsk, tsk...

And ohmigawd! Here's a CRAZY thought: maybe that's his personality? You know, who he is as a person? Or, maybe, just maybe, that's how he likes to dress?!? Ohmigawd! How odd and weird and unconventional THAT one is!

[Dollporn]

Yet I agree that that JRef is becoming more and more a playground for J-music and especially VK.


Did you notice you're in the j-pop forum?
If what you mean is that the genres are too varied to you I can inform you that j-rock goes under j-pop, like officially. However I don't think it works the other way, but anyway... :souka:
And apparently, if discussing j-rock bacame illegal in here there wouldn't be any people...

[Mamoru-kun]

Also, why should we really? Firstly, I can't even tell the difference between guitars and base guitars, so I really couldn't do that and, as for lyrics, normally I don't even look them up. I do not need to know what they're saying to enjoy the music.
My wife even says that it's best not to know sometimes ;-)

Mamoru-kun, recently you posted nothing but threads filled with criticism.Must be because you're a Wallonian
Congratulation! First personnal attack of the topic ;-)

[Horizon]

My wife even says that it's best not to know sometimes ;-)

Ahem...Dir en grey, anyone? :p

[hebiichigo]

LOL hey I like Dir en grey's lyrics. I like knowing what Kyo's raving on about.. :lol: I find it very interesting :p

[Horizon]

LOL hey I like Dir en grey's lyrics. I like knowing what Kyo's raving on about.. :lol: I find it very interesting :p

Ditto, ditto! I find his lyrics quite beautifully written, even if they're about, say, abortion from the unborn child's point of view? I just love his lyrics to death (what I have read translations of anyway), however, a lot of people would probably be sickened by them. They just...Don't see the beauty I suppose. Poor people.:(

[Mamoru-kun]

Again, you resort to what sounds to be insults. Why must you keep doing this, hmm? Especially if you truly did apologize for doing it before? Tsk, tsk...
Excuse-me, but what was an insult in what I wrote there? I was just explaining what I was seeing (especially the finger), and what I hope my childs won't see often. Or is it me who don't understand the english notion of "insult"?

And for your information, I am sorry about what I wrote, not about what I thought...

[Kinsao]

Wow - I missed so much good discussion :o
This topic is very interesting to me, even though many people already have said things that I am thinking, so maybe I can't add much.

I posted some long posts in a recent thread called "is it all about the visual?" which addressed how I feel on this thing of VK/non-VK-ness.

Personally, I listen just for the music only and I do not care what the bands look like. Equally, I can't understand why Mamoru-kun finds the looks of the bands offputting. :clueless: There are many bands I like which I don't find good-looking, but I don't care about it. For example, Iron Maiden is not really good-looking band :giggle: But, it doesn't make any difference.

But people were very quick to slam Mamoru-kun. :o I can see insulting terms in his first post, but actually I was thinking also it's nice that someone starts a conflicting discussion. :bluush: And, I am not insulted by his post, in fact. I am not a VK musician myself of course, so such comments are not directed at me personally. At worst, I maybe just sigh to myself and think "he is missing out on so much from being narrow-minded like that... but it is his own problem..."

I have observed in other places on jref forum that some other members who are not into jrock get sometimes irritated by the VK focus and what they call "superficiality" (:okashii: ) of this sub-section of the forum. And I have always tried in a mature way to defend the jpop forum. :souka:

It is true there is a focus on visual bands. Partly it is availability of information, though. For instance, I really like Aushvitz a lot - the songs from them that PK posted are some of my favourite songs, and I would really like to hear Galneryus - I keep searching for them. But their thread goes further down, not because they are not liked, but because there is not much info to post.

As for pictures, the internet is very good place for visual media. So it is natural to post pictures. It... uhhh... looks pretty. :bluush:
Well, maybe you noticed that in fact a lot of people who post here are also visual artists in some way - maybe art students or ex-art-students or just enjoy to paint for a hobby. Not everyone, of course, but... There are many of us who make our own pictures. So we enjoy to look at visuals from an artistic point of view. I don't mean to sound pretentious, but it is the truth.

Also, if you really look through the threads, there are many, many songs posted and offers to share. These are not bright and obvious like pictures, but they are still there. People here are just as keen to share the 'audio' as the 'visual'! :cool:

I agree it would be nice to have more 'technical' sorts of discussions about the music perhaps. There are some of us here who are musicians in fact - I know Furan and Dollporn are singers, PK plays bass, Anchyyy and Rose play keyboards, myself I play guitar and keyboard and also sing somewhat... probably there are more musicians too... so we are not all musically 'stupid' or some such. So, I really don't know why there is not more 'technical' music discussion, in fact! :? Maybe it is because this forum can be a place for us to be a little ridiculous at times, to make up stupid funny stories, to relax, to have fun. Really, I take for granted that the people posting here like the music (first and foremost). In fact, I find the posts mainly not "superficial" but simply chatty. :-)

I honestly find it difficult sometimes to remember if bands I like are classed as VK or non-VK. It makes no difference to me.

In truth, if someone like a band just from their appearences visually, and say they are a fan of such band even if they don't like the music, they must be very stupid or a little crazy. I think there is no-one who really is like that! :souka:

Finally, I think it is a real shame that people get 'put off' from jpop forum because they think we post only pictures and talk of prettiness. Because it is not true. And people turn their back for that reason, and they miss out on great music. :(

[duff_o_josh]

Wow. I put in an agressive argument and NO ONE'S hated me so far. Heehee. This just made my day! :-)
your post was hardly agressive and you only stated that your a complete fool.see below
i am a complete fool.
:silly:

[duff_o_josh]

Again, they are NOT gothic. They are visual kei, but nice try anyway! :p

And I do not see a "JRock" forum anywhere, so where the Hell are we supposed to talk about it?

Also, why should we really? Firstly, I can't even tell the difference between guitars and base guitars, so I really couldn't do that and, as for lyrics, normally I don't even look them up. I do not need to know what they're saying to enjoy the music. Sometimes I might look 'em up and all, however, I don't usually, so I couldn't do that either. What's left then, besides from pictures? This:

"Ohmigawd! I love -insert random J-band here- so, so much!"

"I know! Me too!"

"Me three!"

"Me fourth!"

"Me fifth!"

"Oh, oh! I do too! <3"

"Ditto, ditto! Who's your favorite? Mine's -insert bandmember's name from random J-band-"

Et cetera, et cetera.

Not to mention the general atmosphere-type thing here that I'm receiving is that we all mostly find that it's a given that we like the band for the music and, well, as you may just be able to tell with the dialogue above, saying how much you love them kind of gets old fast.

And, again, if one doesn't get the pictures, don't go into the THREADS!!

Last two things: first of all, who the Hell are you to know what real "rocking" is? Are you what now? The almighty Deity of Rock n' Roll or some equally as bull-crapped-up thing? And secondly: when did we mock the thread-maker? Not to mention, even if we did, he did insult them for no reason whatsoever, so he'd only be getting kind of what he deserves then.
ah i realize i cant argue with you guys, sorry. a shame, what a shame :relief:
visual kei came from angura kei which was influenced heavily by traditional japan. visual kei encorporates gothic attributes into itself along with metal and industrial. most people in japan who like this music dress as a gothic lolita. so i am not far off saying that it was gothic. look at shibuya kei :cool: noob :smoke:

[Mycernius]

Just a quick word. If you are interested in older J-pop bands have a word or look at some of Flash Jeffs posts. He is into a 1970s female duo called Pink Lady. I think his profile has a link to his website.

[pinkkillerkisou]

PK plays bass
...and folk harp. :D :D :D
(No I'm not kidding :blush:)

I thought I should also mention... I get really sick of people just taking it as an visual thing. Or assuming that everyone, mostly that I, take it as just a visual thing. I don't care what they look like... I love the music. I would love jrocj if I was blind... I would love it if every musician in the whole business was ugly... the image isn't what matter to me. Like I said before though... looks are icing on the cake... and there is no shame in liking icing... I love icing. :D I love sitting and picking songs apart... and really heairing them... each instrument... and the lyrics and vocals... then you can appreciate the whole thing when you put it all back together... I know not many people do that... but I do... I guess it's a muscian thing. :sick:

Now I see... this was meant to be a discussion/rant thread not a please show me bands that dont look like she-male zombies thread. I'm a little slow. :relief:

[lastmagi]

lastemagi. Damn it, what part of 'you don't have to look' don't you understand? If you don't want to look at the bands, then keep away from the posts, and since it's mostly spam in here anyway(which I admit it is), why come here at all?
And make up your mind, you say you think the pictures unteresting, then why are you so mad about them. If you don't care, you don't mind, right?

I care about the state the threads and discussions in JPop are degenerating into. (Thanks for admitting that it’s mostly spam. Made my point here much easier, and puts my next responses in context.)


Then, again, make your own damn thread! Ohgmigawd! 'Tis not THAT difficult a thing to do. The reason I don't do these things is because I don't KNOW any of these bands. Enlighten me about them then instead of bitching and complaining about how the forum is completely and utterly filled up with visual kei. DO something about it! Just likes lots and lots of people say: if you want something done, do it yourself. Good advice that, so I advise you listen to it for once!

As I’ve said before, posts like that get pushed back and ignored. Once more you ignore my point, and oversimplify. It’s not THAT there are no threads that I want to see, it’s that the general atmosphere of the forum makes it not conducive to other kinds of discussions.

Very crappily at that!

Here you refused to respond to my point in a reasonable manner. You don’t provide your arguments in a level-headed way, and you just attack. It’s this kind of superficial commentary that makes many Jmusic threads degenerative. Kindly read my posts and respond to the points in an adult manner.

And what? The person becomes hideously ugly 'cause he ain't a chick? Uh-uh...The thing I said about that seems quite good in this situation.

But the fact is that you generalized. One person could have said it, two could have said it, ten people could have said it in the forum, but that won’t be representative of the whole population.

Not to mention I never once did mention that men can't understand beauty and art, but, again, good try anyway!

Er. I would like to warn you that I am quite capable of reading what is implicit in statements. Even so, the quote that I specifically referenced for you to review, and which I will show here again was:

We females who are completely and utterly straight can and will gladly state rather another girl is pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, et cetera. What I can't understand to a certain degree is why men can't do the same? Are you all just that 'homophobic' or something?

So yes, I suppose it was a good try. Moving along.

And I doubt it's for the men. Now, if lots of straight men start subscribing to Playgirl (for themselves mind you), I'll totally be swayed. Really.

Sorry, I chuckled at this part. This obviously points out that you don’t know that GQ stands for Gentlemen’s Quarterly. If we go look it up on wiki:

Gentlemen's Quarterly, most often known simply as GQ, is a monthly men's magazine that focuses on men's fashion and style

...

In 1983 editor Art Cooper changed the course of the magazine, introducing articles beyond fashion, targeting heterosexual men and establishing GQ as a general men's magazine in competition with Esquire.



Thus you made a false assumption which ultimately undermined what you said.

But the posters like these kind of things and we do not believe the make-up to be "uninteresting". Again, I say it: make your own damn thread and then you have a good reason to start bitching and complaing IF it flops. Possibly.

Sure, who am I to say that these people don’t like the makeup? But is it overdone sometimes? Yes. Does it get boring after a while? Yes. Will we grow out of it someday? Yes. Do I really care as much about the makeup themselves as much as the overzealous emphasis artists and fans (mind you, not all) put on it? Not really.

Ummmm...Pictures ARE necessary. I like to know what the band LOOKS like and, especially, be able to tell who is who once again. Not to mention, the pictures are quite pleasing to the eye. It's not a the most important thing of course, but I still like to know and see.

I refer you to the sentence immediately after the one you quoted.

They’re overdone (if you’d read what I wrote, you’d see that was what I was saying)

So basically you removed something I said from context.

Oh well.

As an endnote, I’d like to thank Kinsao. Even though I don’t agree with everything he wrote (I’ll get to them later, if I have time), I appreciate his level-headed arguments. I know it might be difficult for some to refrain from vitriolic, empassioned “defenses” from the other side but it’s a start. Disagreements exist. How people handle them may either hinder or help a community. Considering that the JPop/Rock community is so young, that we handle things in a more adult manner might be beneficial for this growing sub-culture.

[lastmagi]

I love sitting and picking songs apart... and really heairing them... each instrument... and the lyrics and vocals... then you can appreciate the whole thing when you put it all back together... I know not many people do that... but I do... I guess it's a muscian thing.

See, that kind of thing I can appreciate.

[Mamoru-kun]

Now I see... this was meant to be a discussion/rant thread not a please show me bands that dont look like she-male zombies thread. I'm a little slow. :relief:
May I remind that basicaly, beside the fact that I used some quite rude words (for which I already said sorry), I was asking info about some specific groups (for which I already got some informations)?

More globally, I was also asking why more (ancien) traditionnal groups were not shown in this forum, but for that question too I got an answer (even in such a discution, right filtering gives you good answers ;-))

[duff_o_josh]

May I remind that basicaly, beside the fact that I used some quite rude words (for which I already said sorry), I was asking info about some specific groups (for which I already got some informations)?

More globally, I was also asking why more (ancien) traditionnal groups were not shown in this forum, but for that question too I got an answer (even in such a discution, right filtering gives you good answers ;-))


the words you used were not very rude, they just dont like to read things that make them think twice about what they like. dont worry mamoru-kun.

[pinkkillerkisou]

You know... I see that alot of you points are good, lastmagi and Kinsao. As fars degenerating threads that is. There's a lack of good discussion threads. I personally like discussions... and debating. Though not many others like too. :bluush:

The thing is, those kinds of threads die fast here... they go offtopic, people argue in unconstructive ways, or they simply go ignored. I think that has to do with the fact that the majority of people are visual type people (I mean pictorial, not visual kei ^^;) they remember images... when I see long posts I just see a bunch of words. I have a short attention span and can't read too much at once... especially arguementive stuff. Books are different I suppose... I don't get as easily distracted with them. Also... I feel like there is rarely any worthwhile content in the arguements. I don't feel like I walk away with anything. As if it goes in one ear and out the other.

We really have a bit of an unbalance here as far as between discussion and just plain eye candy threads. No I would say theres a huge imbalance. I think partially cause of the whole visual thing, and that it is much easier to attack people rather than make a reasonable arguement. Since that's the case quickly people will jump in and say "shut up this is silly" and the topic dies... or they go offtopic to avoid conflict. Face it no one like conflict. Well... that's a bit untrue, but most people like to stay safe and far from conflict.

What can you do though... I find even some of my introduction threads get unnoticed. As Kinsao said... it's most likely because there is little info and few pictures and the music is hard to find. I always try to provide music but I get tired of it because no one can appreciate it. They download them and the band never gets mentioned again. Then people get mad when I dont tell them about bands or share more music. But they are bands that are special to me. I don't want to share them if people just download them to simply make there "musical horizons" seem wider. Or download them and never attempt to buy there cds and support them. Oh well, I can't change people. I'll admit there are a few faithful people who thrive off new and interesting bands, but most people like to stick to the safe popular ones. It's easier to "discuss" about them

[blade_bltz]

Why can't we all just be happy and listen to the only band in Japan that matters....Mr.Children.

I'm totally serious too. Mr.Children should dictate all of your lives, as it does mine.

[duff_o_josh]

hahahahahahaha that my friend was the best post ever, but sex machine guns takes me away.

[Mamoru-kun]

the words you used were not very rude, they just dont like to read things that make them think twice about what they like. dont worry mamoru-kun.
I appreciate your action Duff, but the words I used were indeed rude in themselves (zombie especially). Shemale is not rude in itself, but well, being used the way I did, I can easily understand that it can hurt some people. But well well, in other words, there is always other ways to say what you want to say ;-)...even if this time, as I said above, I knew why I intentionally used those particular words (...and that's why I said sorry).

Why can't we all just be happy and listen to the only band in Japan that matters....Mr.Children.

I'm totally serious too. Mr.Children should dictate all of your lives, as it does mine.
I'll probably be killed but...who is Mr.Children?

[duff_o_josh]

zombie isnt bad, infact the words you used, every 8 year old native english speakers uses, well maybe shemale for the special ones. you started a great thread so dont give up lets keep on fighting :box: がんばってね！

in the movie wild zero starring guitar wolf all of the zombies had the same make up we see on all of these ridiculous bands concerned with just visuals. guitar wolf being all japanese rock made a movie battling this. we have to fight for ACE :bravo: and for bass wolf, god bless his soul. lets fight for rock and roll!....and to clean up all this spam. :hey:

[Mamoru-kun]

zombie isnt bad, infact the words you used, every 8 year old native english speakers uses, well maybe shemale for the special ones. you started a great thread so dont give up lets keep on fighting :box: がんばってね！
LOL, I know someone who will be soon flamed more than I was! ;-) I personnaly got my answers. I should feel already happy with that, seeing how the topic goes ;-)

[pinkkillerkisou]

May I remind that basicaly, beside the fact that I used some quite rude words (for which I already said sorry), I was asking info about some specific groups (for which I already got some informations)?

More globally, I was also asking why more (ancien) traditionnal groups were not shown in this forum, but for that question too I got an answer (even in such a discution, right filtering gives you good answers ;-))
Ohh... well see then I've completly misunderstood the whole point of your thread... my apologies. I feel quite dumb now. :blush:

the words you used were not very rude, they just dont like to read things that make them think twice about what they like. dont worry mamoru-kun.
That's not true. I never thought twice about what I like... I thought it was a little unsensitive to call people we admire and possibly even look up to such names.

Then again... can't say I've never done the same. :relief: It was more of an attack than a question... or atleast that is the aftertaste I got. :sick:

[duff_o_josh]

opinions attack each other every day thats why we are human, live with it.

[blade_bltz]

I'll probably be killed but...who is Mr.Children?

Haha, no way man I'm not that kind of guy. Sadly, I don't have much stamina when it comes to writing long messages on forums, but if pushed I could write a freakin thesis on the greatness of this band. I'm surprised you don't know about them, because they are arguably the most popular Japanese band of all time. I guess they don't appeal to the foreign J-pop loving subculture because they are...a straightforward rock band (but of course so much more :p ), rather than a Visual Kei band which, as proven by this forum, attracts a large following out of Japan. But they ARE one of the most versatile rock bands I've heard, and each one of their 10 albums (they've been around for a while) has its own distinct feel. They started off with a J-poppy, light, catchy sound in the early 90's, winning the national Japan music award for their song "Innocent World" in 1994. In the mid 90's they developed a more rock and roll sound with songs like "Hikari no sasu houhe." And at the turn of the millenium, I believe they started fully realizing their ability and their sound matured. Their latest album "Shifuku no Oto" is probably my favorite of theirs, and then in 2004 they AGAIN won the national Japan music award for their song "Sign," 10 years after "Innocent World." They are now set to release an 11th album later this month.

Honestly, if you want a non VK J-pop experience, Mr.Children is for you.

[pinkkillerkisou]

I'm sorry... does it look like I'm crying and in a pitiful state over it. :souka:

Maybe you should read my posts... I wasn't attacking him for it. :okashii:

[Mamoru-kun]

They started off with a J-poppy, light, catchy sound in the early 90's, winning the national Japan music award for their song "Innocent World" in 1994. In the mid 90's they developed a more rock and roll sound with songs like "Hikari no sasu houhe."
Well in that case I've probably already heard (and even perhaps loved) their songs without even knowing that it was them. I'm the kind of people falling in love with a song, without being able to say who is singing, nor what's the song title :p (except for the groups I spoke about earlier, which I deeply loved one day)

[duff_o_josh]

i just meant to say that his words were not very harsh, unless you are not a native speaker of english then i can see how you could be offended. i guess i just meant to say, relax :cool:

[RockLee]

Congratulation! First personnal attack of the topic ;-)It's not a personal attack, by far ! It's a fact my dear French fellow countrymember ;-) ! If you don't like it, then just don't visit those topics.It seems all you want to do is start a flamewar by starting meaningless threads like this which angers other members.If you don't like it, just keep away from it, hell you're only on this forum for a few weeks and you already think you can run the place your way :okashii:

[pinkkillerkisou]

Oh... no I guess I spoke wrong too. I meant to say that I wasn't deeply offended or anything. I actually directed him to some safer terms to use in the midst of fans and offered to help him find bands that were easier on his eyes. :relief:

[duff_o_josh]

It's not a personal attack, by far ! It's a fact my dear French fellow countrymember ;-) ! If you don't like it, then just don't visit those topics.It seems all you want to do is start a flamewar by starting meaningless threads like this which angers other members.If you don't like it, just keep away from it, hell you're only on this forum for a few weeks and you already think you can run the place your way :okashii:
when did that happen?
Oh... no I guess I spoke wrong too. I meant to say that I wasn't deeply offended or anything. I actually directed him to some safer terms to use in the midst of fans and offered to help him find bands that were easier on his eyes.

thats true sorry, you also seem to appreciate music, more people who are active in this section should learn from you it seems.

[Mamoru-kun]

If you don't like it, just keep away from it, hell you're only on this forum for a few weeks and you already think you can run the place your way :okashii:
Would you mind please to read what has been written untill now, and not only my first two posts?

[RockLee]

Would you mind please to read what has been written untill now, and not only my first two posts?Done that, still think I needed to answer that post.It stands apart from the other things :)

[Mamoru-kun]

Ho, and by the way Rocklee, I supose that if I had answered you something like "...you entered the discution after x posts just the argue with me. It's natural, as you are a Flemish", you wouldn't have took that as a direct hit? May I make you notice that it was not what I said? And may I remind you (as you already read this entire topic) that I already said sorry about the way I opened it? And finally, may I remind you that I was asking something in this topic, for which I already got partial answers?

And finally, permit me to point that if I'm not permitted to "run" this forum as you say (even if I don't feel that it's what I did), you shouldn't permit yourself to look down on me like that just because I'm new in the forum and you are an old fellower...

Rocklee, as I wrote one or two times before, I have nothing against you, and if you read carefully what I wrote after my two first posts, you'll notice that I'm not the kind of people "spaming to be flamed", nor the kind of people hating other people in general. I hope that it was just a misunderstanding between us...(NB: what will think other forum members about Belgium if they see us arguing like this? ;-))

[RockLee]

Ho, and by the way Rocklee, I supose that if I had answered you something like "...you entered the discution after x posts just the argue with me. It's natural, as you are a Flemish", you wouldn't have took that as a direct hit? May I make you notice that it was not what I said? And may I remind you (as you already read this entire topic) that I already said sorry about the way I opened it? And finally, may I remind you that I was asking something in this topic, for which I already got partial answers?

And finally, permit me to point that if I'm not permitted to "run" this forum as you say (even if I don't feel that it's what I did), you shouldn't permit yourself to look down on me like that just because I'm new in the forum and you are an old fellower...

Rocklee, as I wrote one or two times before, I have nothing against you, and if you read carefully what I wrote after my two first posts, you'll notice that I'm not the kind of people "spaming to be flamed", nor the kind of people hating other people in general. I hope that it was just a misunderstanding between us...(NB: what will think other forum members about Belgium if they see us arguing like this? ;-))I don't have anything against you, but the way you act in some posts gave that impression (remind the picture thread ?) Maybe you don't mean it that way but to some people it looks as if you intentionally do it ^.^"

It's usual to drag the Wallonians trough the dirt, a little bit of healthy teasing can't hurt can it ? ;-) (Something we Flemish ppl are fond off :p )
Hmm, now be honest, you don't make a thread like this without knowing you'll get negative response ;-)

[Horizon]

ah i realize i cant argue with you guys, sorry. a shame, what a shame :relief:
visual kei came from angura kei which was influenced heavily by traditional japan. visual kei encorporates gothic attributes into itself along with metal and industrial. most people in japan who like this music dress as a gothic lolita. so i am not far off saying that it was gothic. look at shibuya kei :cool: noob :smoke:

Uh-uh...Whatever you say. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N00b

None of those, as to my knowledge, fit me whatsoever, nor do the other uses for the term. Except the so-called 'n00b talk' that people use to make fan of illiterates. I do that all the time, however, I'm not doing it here, so it doesn't even come close to applying, let alone insulting either.

Anyway, with that out of the way, got proof of this please and thank you? Going by what I've heard from 'real' goths, 'tis the music, not the looks that make one gothic, so, thusly...

Oh! And, lastly, let's say I have this horse stallion...And his DNA was 'influenced' by many different breeds, one tiny bit having been from the Brabant breed. Would that make him a Brabant then? Going by what you said, apparently it does indeed...

As I’ve said before, posts like that get pushed back and ignored. Once more you ignore my point, and oversimplify. It’s not THAT there are no threads that I want to see, it’s that the general atmosphere of the forum makes it not conducive to other kinds of discussions.

The only reason I don't respond to them is because I have absolutely nothing to say about them. I don't know the bands, let alone do I know any information about them. Simple as that.



Here you refused to respond to my point in a reasonable manner. You don’t provide your arguments in a level-headed way, and you just attack. It’s this kind of superficial commentary that makes many Jmusic threads degenerative. Kindly read my posts and respond to the points in an adult manner.

No, actually, I just find your argument to be bad. All it seems to consist of is an opinion that doesn't get backed up by anything and 'refer to so-and-so part of whatever post I made here', which is indeed not a good argument in the slightest way possible. But that just may be my oh-so screwed up way of thinking. Silly me.

But the fact is that you generalized. One person could have said it, two could have said it, ten people could have said it in the forum, but that won’t be representative of the whole population.

Get over it. I'm not going to go '(well, a lot of them anyway apparently)' after each thing I say. When I generalize I kind of expect people to to get what I'm saying, as in the apparent majority. Sorry, my bad. Must still giving the general population of people too much credit then...

And there. I didn't generalize there. Happy now?


Er. I would like to warn you that I am quite capable of reading what is implicit in statements. Even so, the quote that I specifically referenced for you to review, and which I will show here again was:



So yes, I suppose it was a good try. Moving along.

No...Last time I checked, the human body isn't art. And there are different types of beauty too (not to mention art as well). So, thusly, all I could possibly be saying is that they are being ignorant about just one aspect of beauty and 'art' because of a reason that, as to my knowledge, is kind of stupid.

So nope, nope! Still not a very good try at all! :p


Sorry, I chuckled at this part. This obviously points out that you don’t know that GQ stands for Gentlemen’s Quarterly. If we go look it up on wiki:



Thus you made a false assumption which ultimately undermined what you said.

Precisely! FASHION and STYLE! Not the beauty of the models. So, yes, I made a bit of an assumption, but I don't find it incorrect whatsoever.

Sure, who am I to say that these people don’t like the makeup? But is it overdone sometimes? Yes. Does it get boring after a while? Yes. Will we grow out of it someday? Yes. Do I really care as much about the makeup themselves as much as the overzealous emphasis artists and fans (mind you, not all) put on it? Not really.

Is it over-done sometomes? Nope. Does it get boring after a while? Nope. Will some of us grow out of it eventually? Possibly, although not I.

'Tis an opinion that cannot be right or wrong.



I refer you to the sentence immediately after the one you quoted.

Again, YOUR opinion. MY opinion. Neither is wrong. One cannot say the other is wrong or right in this particular situation.



So basically you removed something I said from context.

Oh well.

Uh-uh...Right...Whatever you say. :p

the words you used were not very rude, they just dont like to read things that make them think twice about what they like. dont worry mamoru-kun.

Ehhh...No. Calling someone or something a 'she-male zombie' or 'almost non-human' or whatever is quite indeed rude. Actually, it's beyond that. It's an unnecessary assault really.

[Mamoru-kun]

It's usual to drag the Wallonians trough the dirt, a little bit of healthy teasing can't hurt can it ? ;-) (Something we Flemish ppl are fond off :p )
Ouf! You make me feel better. I was already thinking that you could have been a "Wallen buiten" kind of person! The Flemish I personnaly know are good friends of mine. It would have been a pitty to have a Flemish enemy now ;-)

Hmm, now be honest, you don't make a thread like this without knowing you'll get negative response ;-)
I know. And to tell the truth, that was 10% of my intention (you can feel it especially with my last two PS in my very first post). That was a personnal reaction on something I don't understand, but hey, I supose that I can also keep the right to show my opinion a little, ne ;-)

There is just one thing I'd like to clarify: I understand your point of view about some "new people reactions" in general, some people trying to show themself outside the mass (I'm not sure that my english is correct here). I also don't have a lot of interest in such people (generaly young people just trying to act like adults on forums). But please keep in mind that I'm not (well, I think so) that kind of person. I'm arround 30 (my God, already!), and have a long past experience in forums. So in the same way you reacted against me in this topic, I reacted in the "pictures" topic you spoke about above. There is no link with the fact that I'm new or not in this forum. There is just some things I cannot let pass without a warning or a comment (but that is perhaps my past as an op in chats and forums). But once again, I can understand that it can be disturbing when it's done by an only few post-old member.

[Horizon]

thats true sorry, you also seem to appreciate music, more people who are active in this section should learn from you it seems.

Again, someone demostrates their oh-so horribly intense rudeness! :p

[Anchyyy]

thats true sorry, you also seem to appreciate music, more people who are active in this section should learn from you it seems.



Hah that was rude. I mean even if we dont know about Jrock soo much as pinkkiller does, it doesnt mean that we cant love the music and enjoy it.

[pinkkillerkisou]

I don't claim to know anything. :D

I see this turning into an attack thread rather than discussion. :relief:

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

somewhere above it mentions how threads like these die quickly. take the thread i started about the visual, it had discussion, it had bitching, it ended. the typical way of these kind of threads. this one seems to be verging on the bitching stage so unless we go back to discussing it'll soon fade off.
i think that we all know more than each other about jrock. no offence to pkk of cors. what i'm trying to say is, somebody might know more about Kagrra than the rest of us (i.e Furan), someone might know more about miyavi than the rest (i.e isay) and so on. i think, like anchyy said, you don't have to particularly KNOW all about jrock to love it.
and there are plenty of non visual bands out there, its just that the vk scene gets more attention (good or bad) because of the way they look. if you would have taken time to read some of the threads in here Mamoru-kun you would have come across such bands like Road of Major for example, and Merry aren't exactly girly looking.
last thing, i couldn't stop laughing at that link you posted Horizon. about the noob. to me it means 'nob' so i never knew it apparently meant newbie instead.
if any of that sounded offensive in anyway it didn't mean to *hands cookie* especially to pkk, how could i be offensive to you?! *smiles* please don't get scared that i'm your stalker or something lol. i'm just letting you know i like you.
great. now that sounds like a love confession.
*shuts up*

[Horizon]

I'm glad you found it amusing? xD :relief:

And it is also used as a term for an illiterate idiot and whatnot, but...Ehh...Doesn't seem to be on that one. :relief:

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

hummm thats interesting, isn't it part of that silly L337 thing? i have no understanding of that and the people who are involved in it at my school are total dweebs. giving it a bad name i think.

[Horizon]

Yup. That would be a form of illiteracy.

[SaKeVi]

...The thing is, those kinds of threads die fast here... they go offtopic, people argue in unconstructive ways, or they simply go ignored. I think that has to do with the fact that the majority of people are visual type people (I mean pictorial, not visual kei ^^;) they remember images...

...Also... I feel like there is rarely any worthwhile content in the arguements. I don't feel like I walk away with anything. As if it goes in one ear and out the other...

We really have a bit of an unbalance here as far as between discussion and just plain eye candy threads. No I would say theres a huge imbalance. I think partially cause of the whole visual thing, and that it is much easier to attack people rather than make a reasonable arguement. Since that's the case quickly people will jump in and say "shut up this is silly" and the topic dies... or they go offtopic to avoid conflict. Face it no one like conflict. Well... that's a bit untrue, but most people like to stay safe and far from conflict.

What can you do though... I find even some of my introduction threads get unnoticed. As Kinsao said... it's most likely because there is little info and few pictures and the music is hard to find. I always try to provide music but I get tired of it because no one can appreciate it. They download them and the band never gets mentioned again. Then people get mad when I dont tell them about bands or share more music. But they are bands that are special to me. I don't want to share them if people just download them to simply make there "musical horizons" seem wider. Or download them and never attempt to buy there cds and support them.

Damn, being honest, I never expected to see this kind of post in this forum :cool:

As some of you know, I only came to this forum to discuss and criticize VK, hahaha, like most of you said (or tried to say) there are more forums to talk about another genres; this seems to be a Visual forum (eventhough they like "post/Malice Mizer" Visual Style and ignore the good Visual bands from the 80's)

And sorry Mamoro Kun (and users on this forum) but you can't expect a lemon tree to give you apples.

See Ya!

[rose_of_eternity]

Quote:
Guys are just stupid, insecure, and they have too much unneeded pride


Thanks.


You're welcome :okashii:


Quote:
Original quote by pinkkillerkisou

...The thing is, those kinds of threads die fast here... they go offtopic, people argue in unconstructive ways, or they simply go ignored. I think that has to do with the fact that the majority of people are visual type people (I mean pictorial, not visual kei ^^;) they remember images...

...Also... I feel like there is rarely any worthwhile content in the arguements. I don't feel like I walk away with anything. As if it goes in one ear and out the other...

We really have a bit of an unbalance here as far as between discussion and just plain eye candy threads. No I would say theres a huge imbalance. I think partially cause of the whole visual thing, and that it is much easier to attack people rather than make a reasonable arguement. Since that's the case quickly people will jump in and say "shut up this is silly" and the topic dies... or they go offtopic to avoid conflict. Face it no one like conflict. Well... that's a bit untrue, but most people like to stay safe and far from conflict.

What can you do though... I find even some of my introduction threads get unnoticed. As Kinsao said... it's most likely because there is little info and few pictures and the music is hard to find. I always try to provide music but I get tired of it because no one can appreciate it. They download them and the band never gets mentioned again. Then people get mad when I dont tell them about bands or share more music. But they are bands that are special to me. I don't want to share them if people just download them to simply make there "musical horizons" seem wider. Or download them and never attempt to buy there cds and support them.


Damn, being honest, I never expected to see this kind of post in this forum :cool:


-praises pkk for being reasonable- :bow: -pokes siggy- yeah I'm sick of this crap, so I'll be gone for a while, if you really wanna talk, its called msn, bye

[Mamoru-kun]

And sorry Mamoro Kun (and users on this forum) but you can't expect a lemon tree to give you apples.
Well, with some DNA arrangments...;-)

[duff_o_josh]

Uh-uh...Whatever you say. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N00b

None of those, as to my knowledge, fit me whatsoever, nor do the other uses for the term. Except the so-called 'n00b talk' that people use to make fan of illiterates. I do that all the time, however, I'm not doing it here, so it doesn't even come close to applying, let alone insulting either.

Anyway, with that out of the way, got proof of this please and thank you? Going by what I've heard from 'real' goths, 'tis the music, not the looks that make one gothic, so, thusly...

Oh! And, lastly, let's say I have this horse stallion...And his DNA was 'influenced' by many different breeds, one tiny bit having been from the Brabant breed. Would that make him a Brabant then? Going by what you said, apparently it does indeed...


http://www.jrocksaga.com/site/content/glossary.php
if you look up all the different styles of "kei" you can find a link. and the thing with the horse, well its still a horse in then end. sure music plays a big role however looks do to. appearance is the first thing people look at, i mean look at you and others in the jpop section. anyways your friends probably are some of these crazy japanese gothic lolita's who are most of the fan base for these bands you treasure so much. Why do you deny that they are goth? its not a bad thing.


No...Last time I checked, the human body isn't art. And there are different types of beauty too (not to mention art as well). So, thusly, all I could possibly be saying is that they are being ignorant about just one aspect of beauty and 'art' because of a reason that, as to my knowledge, is kind of stupid.

that is why you are not an artist, the human body is one of the most beautiful peices of art known to man. :yeahh:


Ehhh...No. Calling someone or something a 'she-male zombie' or 'almost non-human' or whatever is quite indeed rude. Actually, it's beyond that. It's an unnecessary assault really.

I guess it cant be helped that your a noob to the insult world
:smoke:

[Anchyyy]

I don't claim to know anything. :D

I see this turning into an attack thread rather than discussion. :relief:

Yeah i know you dont claim this but Duff_o_josh appearently thinks that.
And i didnt mean to offend you so i am sorry if i did. :sorry:

[hebiichigo]

I see this turning into an attack thread rather than discussion. :relief:

I agree.. All I see is people attacking each other here. :souka:
Can't we each give the other side a bit of a break, please? :okashii:
Is it possible to agree to disagree, and discuss without insulting each other?

[Horizon]

http://www.jrocksaga.com/site/content/glossary.php
if you look up all the different styles of "kei" you can find a link. and the thing with the horse, well its still a horse in then end. sure music plays a big role however looks do to. appearance is the first thing people look at, i mean look at you and others in the jpop section. anyways your friends probably are some of these crazy japanese gothic lolita's who are most of the fan base for these bands you treasure so much. Why do you deny that they are goth? its not a bad thing.

Alright then. I suppose you're kind of correct, but every Visual Kei band I know of is not gothic music, hence why they aren't goths.

Visual kei
Music genre spawned in Japan. Visual bands usually have a strong focus on image and sometimes theatrical performance. Musically, they can play any style, ranging from rock to metal to goth and industrial. The word "kei" refers to the visual aspect of the bands' image. This style had it's height around the mid-90's; today some say that visual kei is dying, especially on the "major league", but on the underground scene it's still thriving.

Visual Kei bands can RANGE from rock to metal to goth as it says. Enough said really. If not, basically, they aren't all gothic!

that is why you are not an artist, the human body is one of the most beautiful peices of art known to man. :yeahh:

The human body is art when it is drawn and all, but, left alone, it is just nature's creation.

Also, last time I checked, I was indeed an artist, but good try! Even though you failed miserably! :p



I guess it cant be helped that your a noob to the insult world
:smoke:

:souka:

I'm not even going to bother. I can tell when something is just not worth it really.

I agree.. All I see is people attacking each other here. :souka:
Can't we each give the other side a bit of a break, please? :okashii:
Is it possible to agree to disagree, and discuss without insulting each other?

Oi~...Sorry. I shall say no more in regards. :sorry:

Yeah i know you dont claim this but Duff_o_josh appearently thinks that.
And i didnt mean to offend you so i am sorry if i did. :sorry:

Ditto, ditto! :sorry:

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

people are attacking each other because the thread started off with two completely different sides. mamoru-kun started off with a post thats clearly bound to set off a reaction with the vk fans, and then it started.
on the other hand, if he would have not mentioned the shemale zombie part (or whatever he said) then this would have been totally different. he's apologised for that so thats over with, but still, thats why there has been arguing.

and can whoever keeps saying noob take another second in your life to type out newbie. cmon, its just two more letters.

"Why do you deny that they are goth? its not a bad thing." as far as i knew goths wore all black and had a general bad view on most things in this world etc. so i wasn't aware that psyco le cemu believed in the devil, but clearly because they dress as vk they must be goths.

but i agree with hebiichigo, we should discuss from now on and not argue. so if any of that sounded argumentative i apologise.

[Horizon]

Ummmm...You got goth wrong. People who wear all black and worship the devil are not really goth. A goth, besides from being an ancient Barbarian, is someone who listens to gothic music. Which, by the way, is definately not Marilyn Manson or KORN or anything of the likes. In fact, apparently, REAL goths don't even wear black 24/7 and aren't all depressed all the time either!

So to be Goth isn't bad.

Nor is having a so-called 'bad' view of most of the world.

Nor is worshipping Satan. :p

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

ohhh thanks for that horizon! (in no way was that comment sarcastic or bitchy. it looks it but it isn't).
i said that because thats how most goths are around where i live etc. but thinking about what you said, maybe thats a stereotype and people have assumed certain points of being a goth. like what you said about korn and marilyn manson.
could i have an example of gothic music? doesn't have to be jrock, i'm just curious.
and i didn't say they were bad things. sorry if it came across like that.

[Horizon]

Ummmmm...-isn't a goth-

I suppose I could look some up, but I'm not sure that would be entirely true. Hmmm...:worried:

Oh! And your welcome and I didn't actually take any of that as such. :relief:

[Kinsao]

:o :o :o
There is a lot to read in this thread. :mad: And I wasn't even away for long!
There are interesting things said, but... too much to remember for me to comment on... :mad:
But I want to say on:
What can you do though... I find even some of my introduction threads get unnoticed. As Kinsao said... it's most likely because there is little info and few pictures and the music is hard to find. I always try to provide music but I get tired of it because no one can appreciate it. They download them and the band never gets mentioned again. Then people get mad when I dont tell them about bands or share more music. But they are bands that are special to me. I don't want to share them if people just download them to simply make there "musical horizons" seem wider. Or download them and never attempt to buy there cds and support them.

PK, I don't think your introduction threads go unnoticed! On the contrary, from what I can gather, most people on the forum much appreciate that you post information about less well-known bands, and share the music with us. It is true that some of the threads sink, after a short while. But I wouldn't say that people don't appreciate or like the music of those bands. For instance, I very much liked Aushvitz, KuRt and Mar'derayla that you posted here. But it's true what you say that the music is hard to find. Each time I go to search for music, I include these bands (and Galneryus!) in my search. But I have not been lucky in finding more music from them yet. :( I only found some more KuRt music, which I did post here. But it doesn't mean people forget the bands or are not interested anymore.

About VK/goth, I can't say very well. :clueless: But I don't consider as the same thing. I would hesitate to try and define the terms, because I don't have the knowledge. But to me, "goth" is more about whole lifestyle as well as certain type of music. And surely, people don't have to dress in black to be a goth! or worship the devil! Of course, there are different "types" of goth, maybe some people who listen to the music only, maybe others like to dress a certain way or whatever... it's just a matter of preferred style.

To me, VK refers to a look which is extreme visual emphasis, i.e. not the "ordinary" clothes like they might wear at the supermarket! More elaborate clothing and makeup. I think that sometimes it could be "goth", and other times not. For example, Pyscho le Cemu were very strongly VK; just look at their crazy costumes! But, they are so ungoth to me, they are almost anti-goth! I don't know how to explain myself well, though. :sorry:

And, yeah, I think this thread has somewhat turned into more "attack" thread. I said it before, but I think people were quick to jump on Mamoru-kun's back because of his original post, and he did apologise for using words which could be offensive. I don't think any j-rockers' hearts will be broken because Mamoru-kun doesn't like their makeup. And further in the thread, too... there is no need for things to get personal between individuals. I like to have discussion and I also liked the thread "is it all about the visual?", I thought it was an interesting thread for discussion.

The human body... *was determined to leave that subject alone but can't resist going on* ... I think it is sometimes art and sometimes not. (Incidentally, Duff O'Josh, you were asking for trouble making assumption to say "that is why you are not an artist" - if you say something like that without knowing for real, you can more or less guarantee that the other person will be! As is Horizon.) Anyway *ahem* I think in it's ordinary state just existing, the human body is not art, but of course if it's a subject for drawing, painting, sculpture etc. it becomes "art" in some sense. For instance, it's possible to view the human body as if it was art. Which depends on the mind of the viewer. As well as being the subject of art, the human body can also be the medium of art. I'm actually thinking specifically of performance art - especially dance, which to me is a form of sculpture with duration (but also theatre and other sorts of performance art). So if someone is engaged in performance art, I think you can say that their body "is" the art. (Maybe not the whole of it; for example, there may also be costumes, scenery, props and lighting contributing to the artwork, but certainly a key component in it.)

I'll shut up now.... :bluush:

[furan]

............you got one point there.
of caUSE I HAVE A POINT...

VK is NO different to any other expression through fasshion.

it's no different to Punk, Goth and Metal... it's no different to the Hip Hop look, or... 'streat' i guess people call it..

or the Skater appearence... it's just another way of dressing...

you take away EVERY SINGLE band's appearence out there and gress them all in plain trouseres and simple tops.... now tell me... would you still be as interested in the band you are now?

[Mamoru-kun]

Indeed no, you're right. I remember seeing Kurt playing his guitar and songs sitting on a chair, in front of listening persons also sitting, and well, even if it was still Nirvana, it was not really him. So here, the clothes aside, even the position (just sitting without moving in his chair) changed the mood. I can now easily understand that a VK group without his scene clothes would be some how different enough to break the sphere. But still, it's hard for me to look at them without linking them with gothics. But that is certainly (as said above) a stereotip I have because I don't now the VK world enough.

[duff_o_josh]

The human body is art when it is drawn and all, but, left alone, it is just nature's creation.

Also, last time I checked, I was indeed an artist, but good try! Even though you failed miserably! :p



its unfortunate that you think so. I do believe photgraphy is considered art an d people are often captured on film for arts sake. you dont have to paint or draw on some thing for it to be are, art is natural.

[hebiichigo]

its unfortunate that you think so. I do believe photgraphy is considered art an d people are often captured on film for arts sake. you dont have to paint or draw on some thing for it to be are, art is natural.

I'm sorry for being so pedantic here, but Art, by definition, is something that human beings create. It is "Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=art). Photography and film are of course included in this. I would say, when the human body is being studied as art or produced into an art work, then it is art. So yes people captured on film may be art.
Nature itself is not art. My body just as it is right now is not art :relief:

[Horizon]

its unfortunate that you think so. I do believe photgraphy is considered art an d people are often captured on film for arts sake. you dont have to paint or draw on some thing for it to be are, art is natural.


Did you not see the "and all" thing? The body is art when it is actually used in art itself. When by itself, again, it is just natural. And, technically, even when drawn, painted, photographed, et cetera it's still not art. It's just an element in art, used it art.

Although I do so believe Hebiichigo said it best, although I've seen other animals, besides from humans, create art, but everything else...

And art isn't natural either. Nature is natural and what nature creates is natural. Nature just creates something. Nature, as far as I know, does not have a mind of it's own. It does not think to itself what would look beautiful or great where and what colours and landscapes would go perfect together. Nature just creates and some of what it creates then, in turn, creates actual art. They think about where to put what, what colours would make it amazing, and so on and so forth. Again, nature does not perform this function; it just creates the materials so to speak.

[duff_o_josh]

Did you not see the "and all" thing? The body is art when it is actually used in art itself. When by itself, again, it is just natural. And, technically, even when drawn, painted, photographed, et cetera it's still not art. It's just an element in art, used it art.

Although I do so believe Hebiichigo said it best, although I've seen other animals, besides from humans, create art, but everything else...

And art isn't natural either. Nature is natural and what nature creates is natural. Nature just creates something. Nature, as far as I know, does not have a mind of it's own. It does not think to itself what would look beautiful or great where and what colours and landscapes would go perfect together. Nature just creates and some of what it creates then, in turn, creates actual art. They think about where to put what, what colours would make it amazing, and so on and so forth. Again, nature does not perform this function; it just creates the materials so to speak.
ok then i will leave it at that for you.
:souka:

[duff_o_josh]

I'm sorry for being so pedantic here, but Art, by definition, is something that human beings create. It is "Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=art). Photography and film are of course included in this. I would say, when the human body is being studied as art or produced into an art work, then it is art. So yes people captured on film may be art.
Nature itself is not art. My body just as it is right now is not art :relief:
by the way human beings create other human beings.

[Horizon]

But can we decide on how the human shall look? The colour of its eyes? Hair? The height? Et cetera?

That is still nature.

[hebiichigo]

by the way human beings create other human beings.

wow. :rolleyes:
Art is created from ideas generated by human beings.
My body wasn't an idea that my parents thought of was it? They didn't think "she will be this high, and weigh this much, have this coloured hair..." and make me this way specifically did they? No.

But there really is no point in disagreeing or discussing anything with you, is there? :banghead:

[pinkkillerkisou]

Why are people trying to define art... art is something each person as to define for themselves. This is a ridiculous arguement. Quite pointless too... you will never have a nailed-down defintition everyone can agree on. Art is an expression... and being individuals people express themselves differently. People see the world differently... leave it at that. Art cant be generalized. :p

[Mamoru-kun]

I'm sad to see how my topic went. I mean, I knew that I was about to be flamed, but could not imagine that it would have continued after I noticed my mistake in public. Sorry about this :worried: :sorry:

[pinkkillerkisou]

Damn, being honest, I never expected to see this kind of post in this forum
I never lie! :p
(XDDD)

Nice to have you back by the way... :-)

PK, I don't think your introduction threads go unnoticed! On the contrary, from what I can gather, most people on the forum much appreciate that you post information about less well-known bands, and share the music with us. It is true that some of the threads sink, after a short while. But I wouldn't say that people don't appreciate or like the music of those bands. For instance, I very much liked Aushvitz, KuRt and Mar'derayla that you posted here. But it's true what you say that the music is hard to find. Each time I go to search for music, I include these bands (and Galneryus!) in my search. But I have not been lucky in finding more music from them yet. I only found some more KuRt music, which I did post here. But it doesn't mean people forget the bands or are not interested anymore.
Maybe unnoticed wasnt a correct term... easily forgotten. :? That's more accurate I suppose. :blush: That's exactly why I try to share... cause it's hard to find. I just get annoyed that bands who arent anywhere near as great as say Aushvitz get all the attention and their threads stay on the first page all the time. Well I forgive D'espairsRay for being on the first page. :D I'd forgive them anything... that and I live to keep them on the first page... :lol: Even D'espa who stays constantly on the first page is only visited by a handful of people... I dont even bother going in many thread anymore... there was a time when I would try to go to every thread... but I get tired of pointless conversations and mediocre bands. It's tiresome... I can't help it I hear music different. :bluush: (sorry if that sounds superior... I don't mean that to sound that way ^^;) I honestly deleted a bunch of my music recently... some of it I dont even listen to anymore or wasnt fond of to begin with... I don't care how many bands I listen to... as long as they are spectacular. :-)

[Satorian]

I think The Back Horn make some great music while looking like average guys. (I think at least. I don't exactly do photo research.)

[RockLee]

I'm sad to see how my topic went. I mean, I knew that I was about to be flamed, but could not imagine that it would have continued after I noticed my mistake in public. Sorry about this :worried: :sorry:
This thread has been taken over by the VK-lovers...it usually goes that way :blush: (just messing with ya guys) But if you want to get it closed you can ask a mod :)

[Mamoru-kun]

But if you want to get it closed you can ask a mod :)
That would perhaps make them much more angry ;-) There is nothing more frustrating than not being able to win a debate because time is over...

[lastmagi]

The only reason I don't respond to them is because I have absolutely nothing to say about them. I don't know the bands, let alone do I know any information about them. Simple as that.

No, still not as simple as that, and the reasoning you provide doesn’t work. I'm unclear on one thing: Since when did knowledge about something have to do with potential interest?

No, actually, I just find your argument to be bad. All it seems to consist of is an opinion that doesn't get backed up by anything and 'refer to so-and-so part of whatever post I made here', which is indeed not a good argument in the slightest way possible. But that just may be my oh-so screwed up way of thinking. Silly me.

Rather than mouthing off that an argument is simply “good” or “bad,” effort must be spent in actually refuting it. Otherwise, what you say does not count as argument, but attacking, and severely lowers your credibility and intellectual honesty even more as a debater.

Get over it. I'm not going to go '(well, a lot of them anyway apparently)' after each thing I say. When I generalize I kind of expect people to to get what I'm saying, as in the apparent majority. Sorry, my bad. Must still [be]giving the general population of people too much credit then...

And there. I didn't generalize there. Happy now?

Generalizing, first of all, takes a huge part of your credibility away, no matter what you expect of the “general population”. Secondly, it doesn’t matter if you say “well, a lot of them anyway apparently”; you separated the genders in such a way as to enforce the generalization. That was your whole point of distinguishing between men and women. You consciously demarcated a line between males and females.

No...Last time I checked, the human body isn't art. And there are different types of beauty too (not to mention art as well). So, thusly, all I could possibly be saying is that they are being ignorant about just one aspect of beauty and 'art' because of a reason that, as to my knowledge, is kind of stupid.

So nope, nope! Still not a very good try at all! :p

The human body can be used as a canvas for art. Isn’t that part of the idea behind VK visual appearances? And isn’t VK what we were discussing in the first place? Otherwise, for what other reason would you have said:

We females who are completely and utterly straight can and will gladly state rather another girl is pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, et cetera. What I can't understand to a certain degree is why men can't do the same? Are you all just that 'homophobic' or something?

if not within the context of VK?

Another point: let’s go back to what we’re both referring to in order to refresh our memory.

The point here made is unfortunately counter-productive, particularly for feminists. For starters, it tries to defend by using a stereotype which hurts both sides (women understand beauty and art, men don’t)

So you lifted something out of context again, or at least have started drifting towards a tangent. Does it really matter the difference between beauty and art, as much as the fact that you made a self-destructive stereotype? It’s certainly not the focus of my quote. In fact, it’s in parentheses.

Precisely! FASHION and STYLE! Not the beauty of the models. So, yes, I made a bit of an assumption, but I don't find it incorrect whatsoever.

Ah... I get it. I misread your post and thought “and I doubt it’s for the men” referred to “I doubt it’s for the men (readers)” rather than “I doubt the magazine is for the images of men. My apologies. Let’s go back and cover that again, shall we?

And I doubt it's for the [images of] men. Now, if lots of straight men start subscribing to Playgirl (for themselves mind you), I'll totally be swayed. Really.

The example falls flat in a couple of ways. First, the scenario is implying that straight girls subscribe to Playboy. Otherwise, what was the point of making a scenario in which straight men subscribe to Playgirl? So your analogy is lacking there. It would have been more effective if you’d had used a women’s magazine that was not for style or fashion, but for the simple admiration of other women.

Secondly, your example falls flat in another way: VK artists typically dress and make themselves up in a conscious attempt to appear androgynous. They remove themselves from typical discourses about women admiring women’s appearances, and men doing the same; they add a new dimension, which makes your attempt at contrasting males and females’ behaviors too one-dimensional.

Thirdly, as my example was trying to get across, men can nevertheless still appreciate the appearance (fashion, style, beauty) of another man, even if unconsciously. The men on the cover of the men’s magazine are selectively chosen to be handsome, after all. The role of my example was to break that generalization you made. That you already admitted the generalization renders further discussion about this obsolete.


Is it over-done sometomes? Nope. Does it get boring after a while? Nope. Will some of us grow out of it eventually? Possibly, although not I.

'Tis an opinion that cannot be right or wrong.

I’ll provide the rest of the paragraph that you neglected to quote:

Do I really care as much about the makeup themselves as much as the overzealous emphasis artists and fans (mind you, not all) put on it? Not really.


You keep ignoring, whether intentionally or not, the point I’m trying to get across: that the threads are only conducive to restricted kinds of discussions.

[in reference to my statement that pictures are overdone] Again, YOUR opinion. MY opinion. Neither is wrong. One cannot say the other is wrong or right in this particular situation.

Opinions are usually founded upon evidence and/or a process of a priori logical reasoning (at least, for non-faith based opinions). I gave a bit of evidence in the beginning. But keep in mind my previous paragraph in this thread that it’s not as much the images themselves as much as the environment. We can definitely see evidence of such an environment by looking at the kinds of discussions/posts here. Of course, I’ve seen some interesting comments/replies in this very thread by other people, so I think it’s possible that we can push ourselves a little further to get JPop/Rock the respect it deserves.

Uh-uh...Right...Whatever you say. :p


I’m sorry. Was this statement supposed to serve a purpose (aside from sarcasm)?

[RockLee]

That would perhaps make them much more angry ;-) There is nothing more frustrating than not being able to win a debate because time is over...Sometimes it's the only option when things get out of hand, I have a feeling we're not really on topic anymore :?

[lastmagi]

I see this turning into an attack thread rather than discussion

That’s true. For my part, I apologize that I’d let somethings get the best of me. I know at least one person who could not stand the conflict and went away, and I’m really sorry she had to leave in that way (i’ll PM her after this). I really believe in a kind of discussion where people leave their nastiness at the door and try to discuss their differences in a mature way, but it’s probably a pipe dream.

Seeing the way this thread has gone slightly better than at first (edit: whoops, I think I skipped reading some of the posts. oh well, doesn't matter), I think I’ll leave off arguing with Horizon, since I think some people are leaving in part because of that. (unless people LIKE this kind of stuff :p) Probably the best thing for this thread.

[pinkkillerkisou]

She's not the only one either... other people told me they were gonna stay away for a bit too. I said it before, I say it again. Most people don't take kindly to conflict. :sick: Well it's a shame because as much as I want to, and it seems you would like it as well, to have a nice discussion without the attacks... I don't see it happening. Most people are hot headed and easily offended. (no offense :sorry:)

Oh no... I enjoy it too... just as long as it stays intellectual instead of simple I'm right your wrong bickering. :p

[duff_o_josh]

Why are people trying to define art... art is something each person as to define for themselves. This is a ridiculous arguement. Quite pointless too... you will never have a nailed-down defintition everyone can agree on. Art is an expression... and being individuals people express themselves differently. People see the world differently... leave it at that. Art cant be generalized. :p


thats why art can be anything. including a normal person.

i forgot what i was fighting for, sorry ace :relief:

[Horizon]

She's not the only one either... other people told me they were gonna stay away for a bit too. I said it before, I say it again. Most people don't take kindly to conflict. :sick: Well it's a shame because as much as I want to, and it seems you would like it as well, to have a nice discussion without the attacks... I don't see it happening. Most people are hot headed and easily offended. (no offense :sorry:)

Oh no... I enjoy it too... just as long as it stays intellectual instead of simple I'm right your wrong bickering. :p

Ditto, ditto. Unfortunately, however, about 99.9% of all discussions turn out this way. Out of the hundreds and hundreds that I've seen, only a single one was actually a discussion and not something which the people involved are attempting to shove their opinions down each others' throats. I was quite amazed really (even though I didn't read the entire argument, however, they were still referring to each other in a polite way, so ehh...).

Why are people trying to define art... art is something each person as to define for themselves. This is a ridiculous arguement. Quite pointless too... you will never have a nailed-down defintition everyone can agree on. Art is an expression... and being individuals people express themselves differently. People see the world differently... leave it at that. Art cant be generalized. :p

Yes, you're right. Sorry! :bluush:

[pinkkillerkisou]

Really... :? cause me and my friend love debating... not just with eachother but other people too... especially heated topics like capitol punishment, abortion, religion, war, etc.. Most of the time it stays polite and intellectual... but theres always the uninformed idoit or two who just has to get there two cents in... but in most cases there good debates. :p

[Horizon]

Ta! Must be nice! Maybe it's just where I do it...And the fact that my real life friends assume anything where people don't agree with the other is an argument...-proceeds to roll eyes here-

[pinkkillerkisou]

Tis nice! I find setting the good example first never hurts either. :blush:

[Horizon]

...Are you implying something? xDD

[pinkkillerkisou]

Nooooo......................................... I would never! :shock: I meant that if you dont then the other person sure as hell won't... what the point of being considerate to someone if they aren't to you. :sick:

...and even if I was what would you do. :evil:

[Horizon]

And why should one be considerate or whatever when the other couldn't find it in them to be as such to begin with?

And I'd cry at the meanness of it all. :(

[duff_o_josh]

and there goes the spam.

[Horizon]

And thank you oh-so much for contributing! :wave:

[pinkkillerkisou]

What a horrible way to think... the sad things is most people think exactly that. That is why people are the way they are nowadays. It very sad... a couple years ago a kid shot his brother. They were buying a soda to split... one had more money than the other and the brother with less money picked the soda... the one with more money thought that was unfair so he pulled out a gun and shot his brother to death. Is that the kind of world you want to live in... I mean in a sense stuff like that can't be completely wiped out but I sure as hell don't want to contribute to the inconsideracy of the world.

Aww... well I never meant it for you personally... I meant itfor everyone... and more as a general statement. :sorry:

[Horizon]

What now? He shot his brother because he picked up the soda? :?

And I suppose you do have a point. However, this isn't in real life and I don't think we can be shot through the computer screens.

And, well...There is no real point in attempting to be nice to someone if they can't make the same effort regardless. It's simply not fair. Not to mention I believe people should be treated how they treat others...And the fact that most wouldn't become considerate or anything anyway, no matter how much kindness you show to them.

And oh...Okay then. xDD :relief:

[pinkkillerkisou]

No... cause his brother picked the soda... the one who had more money though because he paid more he should pick.

But that's no excuse really... are there certain times, places, situtations where it is ok to be inconsiderate? No... there's simply no reason to be.

It still doesn't hurt to be considerate anyway... even it doesn't make any difference to the other person. Your just stooping to their level by treating them the way they treat others.

[Horizon]

Oh...Picked the flavor or whatever. That's simply idiotic really. :souka:

I can see your logic, but ehhh...-shrugs- I just can't find myself able to treat someone with anything akin to respect if they cannot perform the same function. I just can't. :relief:

[Kinsao]

I completely lost the plot on this thread now. :bluush: I guess the original idea way back at the beginning was that the OP wanted recommendations of non-VK bands? :? And then becomes an argument about VK, generated because of the way he phrased the post. :bluush:

Well - honestly. :buuh: I would have thought it was pretty obvious that to say "VK bands are all no good coz of the way they look" is just as stupid an attitude as to say "VK bands are all great coz of the way they look". And I don't think anyone on here is so immature at all! It doesn't take a genious (sp?) to figure out you're going to get some fantastic VK bands and some crap ones, same as any other genre. :okashii:

I don't think the thread should also have turned towards "let's talk about the nature of the posts in the j-pop subforum" either. Whether we agree or disagree with some of the points that were made, it's up to the mods and admin to sort things out if they don't like the nature of the posts.

@ Satorian: thankyou for reminding us of the Back Horn! I had forgotten them! :sorry: my bad. :(

@ Mamoru-kun: if you want examples of any of the bands I mentioned to you by pm, let me know and I'll be happy to fire salvos of music at you! :p Oh - and you can also go back quite a number of pages in this sub-forum, too - there are quite a few non-VK bands with threads in fact, it's just that many of them haven't stayed on the first page. :cool:

[SaKeVi]

And I suppose you do have a point. However, this isn't in real life and I don't think we can be shot through the computer screens.

Recently, I knew that in a forum I use to visit, an user went to the forum administrator's house to punch him, because he got banned from that forum... how did that happened?? no one knows.

Be aware, this happens hahaha.

[Mamoru-kun]

@ Mamoru-kun: if you want examples of any of the bands I mentioned to you by pm, let me know and I'll be happy to fire salvos of music at you! :p
Wohooooo! That would be great! Actually I don't have much time to find new musics on the net (or not enough money to buy new CDs ;-)), so such contribution would be greatly appreciated :-) What about posting them here? It would have sense in this topic...

But by the way.........is all those downloadable musics here legal???

[Kinsao]

Whee! OK, I will send you some stuff. :-)

Sshhhh - I don't talk about legalness - I have no understanding of such matters. :o *big innocent eyes*

[Horizon]

-sing-song voice- I live in Canada, so it' ain't illegal~! :p

Recently, I knew that in a forum I use to visit, an user went to the forum administrator's house to punch him, because he got banned from that forum... how did that happened?? no one knows.

Be aware, this happens hahaha.


Perhaps then one should be more careful with their information, yes? :relief:

[duff_o_josh]

well its not hard to find out information on people, infact if you were older it would be easy to find out exactly where you live, i could even get a map using canada 411 ms. lewis ;)

[Horizon]

:souka: How interesting indeed...

[Kinsao]

lol, it sounds like Duff O Josh has a dark past! (or possibly present... :worried: )

[Horizon]

:o Please don't say (type...) that...It's freaky...o.0

[Kinsao]

He's gonna get you! Mwahahahahahahaha! :evil:

[Horizon]

Ta! That's not why it's freaky. I'm perfectly capable of defending myself, smankyou!

[Kinsao]

Why do you find it freaky, then? :?

[Horizon]

'Cause it just is. It's not 'scary freaky. 'Tis just 'freaky, freaky', yes? :relief:

[duff_o_josh]

well its easy to find out where people live, you can check there user info on the site where you run into them like i did for horizon. If they have there own phone then its the easiest thing in the world. i literally spent 2 minutes maybe less to find your name.

[Kinsao]

well its easy to find out where people live, you can check there user info on the site where you run into them like i did for horizon. If they have there own phone then its the easiest thing in the world. i literally spent 2 minutes maybe less to find your name.

That's pretty damn smart, Duff. Do you have admin permissions or something? No one puts their real name in their profile!

[Mamoru-kun]

No one puts their real name in their profile!
I do! I mean, on sites as this one, I don't feel any reason to be over-cautious...;-)

[Horizon]

well its easy to find out where people live, you can check there user info on the site where you run into them like i did for horizon. If they have there own phone then its the easiest thing in the world. i literally spent 2 minutes maybe less to find your name.

Well...Yeah...'Tis in my MSN profile, so I'm not muchly surprised. However, there are probably thousands of Lewis' in Canada alone and there's bound to be a few to a dozen or so, at least, that have my own name.

Not to mention I don't go by my real name very often.

I do! I mean, on sites as this one, I don't feel any reason to be over-cautious...;-)

Yeah...I even put what country I've from. I usually don't even do that. :relief:

[pinkkillerkisou]

My real name is in my profile... *points* It's pinku moo! :lol:

[nanda]

i put my real name, real country and real age in my profile ^^
but of course if that's not enough, u can ask me anything, or maybe u need my pics w/ my autograph on 'em? (yeah, right)

lolz, j/k XD~

[Mamoru-kun]

And your bank account perhaps? ;-)

[Horizon]

My real name is in my profile... *points* It's pinku moo! :lol:

Your profile is very, ummmm...Yeah... :relief:

[pinkkillerkisou]

Is very what...? :clueless:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Horizon]

Nice? Awesome? Kick-***? Lots and lots of awesome, cool words? xDD :relief: