Improbable Japanese People

[Brooker]

No matter where you go you will always find people who just don't fit in, they defy the stereotypes. I've met a few Japanese people who had traits or characteristics that were completely opposite of my image of Japanese people. People are people, ne?

For example, after I completed my Japanese course in Japan, we all went out to dinner and karaoke with our teachers. As we were eating I noticed that one of my teachers could barely use chopsticks! A Japanese person, who grew up in Japan, and probably uses chopsticks everyday, couldn't use her chopsticks half as well as I! I jokingly asked her if she was really Japanese and she said that people often give her a hard time about it. There was nothing physically or mentally wrong with her so I'm not sure what the explanation for that could be.

Another example is that I've met a few Japanese people who hated sushi. :131: :eek:

Has anyone else met any Japanese people who completely defy the stereotypes?

[ArmandV]

Well, many have heard stories of most Japanese being quiet and reserved in front of gaijin. A few months ago, a bunch of us went out to dinner in Chicago after our annual Godzilla convention was over. One our Japanese guests (who was first assistant director of Godzilla: Final Wars) was riding with us back to our hotel. The owner of the vehicle had a country & western station on. After an older country song (Hank Williams) finished playing, the guest let out a bunch of "Yee-haws!" That was a bit startling, but amusing.

[lexico]

one of my teachers could barely use chopsticks! ... I'm not sure what the explanation for that could be.Never undersetimate the power of the spork (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/fungym/sporkreal.jpg) ! 12 yrs of continuous use can and will effectively erase any trace of chpostick aptitude; some people first exposed to the spork without proper chopstick training can never make it back; just like experienced maturbaters can suck major in the real thing !

Edit: The embarassment of chpostick illiteracy could have been avoided had her parents spent a little more money and bought her a three-piece lunch utensil. Three Piece Lunchware (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/star66/star828city/lu01b.jpg)

[Mike Cash]

Well, many have heard stories of most Japanese being quiet and reserved in front of gaijin. A few months ago, a bunch of us went out to dinner in Chicago after our annual Godzilla convention was over. One our Japanese guests (who was first assistant director of Godzilla: Final Wars) was riding with us back to our hotel. The owner of the vehicle had a country & western station on. After an older country song (Hank Williams) finished playing, the guest let out a bunch of "Yee-haws!" That was a bit startling, but amusing.

Interesting that you should mention Hank on his birthday.

[Harvey]

I know this Japanese guy, who 10 years ago, when he was 21, rode a bicycle from Calcutta India to Lisbon Portugal. The trip took him 1 year and he couldn't speak English at the time.

Blew my mind.

[Harvey]

Improbable. Reminds me of Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy

[ArmandV]

Interesting that you should mention Hank on his birthday.


Weird. I wasn't aware of it. Happy Birthday, Hank (wherever you are).

[Kara_Nari]

I have a lot of Japanese friends who cant use Chopsticks properly. Its difficult for　me to try and copy how they do it, but it just looks so awkward. It looks like they almost cup their hand over the end of the chopsticks, with the chopsticks jammed between their fingers, how they have any movement is beyond me.
One of my japanese friends doesnt eat meat, isnt married but lives by herself, and is in no way shy, timid or introverted. She has the most open mind of anyone I know.
I know Koreans who cant eat spicy food, and hate kimchi too.

[Maciamo]

Well, I'd say that in Belgium, many people tend to think of the Japanese as shy, prude, reserved, over-serious, quiet and who can't enjoy themselves. I was surprised to find out that it was the exact opposite for the majority, especially for prudeness (never seen less prude in the West), and about enjoying themselves. In Tokyo it seems that even working people go drinking, singing karaoke or partying almost every night (all regrouped under the generic term "asobu").

As for chopsticks, I complained a lot about being asked if I could use them, but I am realising more and more that an surprising number of Japanese can't use their chopsticks properly. It's strange to me, or my relatives who've visited me twice in Japan and got used to their chopsticks after just a few meals like me. Very ironic.

Another stereotype was that the Japanese were generally well-informed and good at using electronic gadgets, computers, etc. To my dismay, I found that most young people can barely use the Internet, and most people above 40 or 50 cannot even do that (which is rare in Belgium). A friend of mine who works for Intel told me that market studies in Japan, Europe and the US showed that of all the countries surveyed the Japanese were by far the less "geek", with the highest percentage of people who didn't know what was a CPU, never heard of Intel or had no idea what their PC's speed in MHz was.

These are all things that surprised me, some in a good way, others not.

[Kara_Nari]

I havent yet been asked if I can use chopsticks, but have been complimented on how I do use them. Also they assume that because my pronunciation is very good, that I am fluent in Japanese... heh, until they start chatting about politics, economy and everything that bores me, and I dont even make an effort to learn in English.
After being in Korea for the last 4 or 5 months, I guess I was expecting that there would be a bit more pushing when I came to Japan because of the population similarity... but NO, everyone is very un pushy, they even make way for you when riding a bicycle on the footpath.

[Mycernius]

I don't know whether this is on topic, but at the sushi restaurant in Birmingham they automatically give you chopsticks. They assume you know how to use them. They have never asked me whether I need a knife or fork. Mind you I can use chopsticks. I learnt at an early age. The only member of my family who can't is my mother

[Brooker]

at the sushi restaurant in Birmingham they automatically give you chopsticks. They assume you know how to use them. They have never asked me whether I need a knife or fork.

It's almost impossible to eat sushi with a knife and fork. Even if you can't use chopsticks well, you're better off using them when it comes to sushi.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Here's something interesting. Sushi is apparently not "supposed" to be eaten with chopsticks, but rather with your bare hand. Also, you're not supposed to dip the rice-side into the soy sauce. This old timer sushi chef was telling us all this stuff last month when we went for dinner.
Japanese are "supposed" to be experts on this kind of thing, but nobody seems to know these rules. (Of course, I didn't either until last month!)

[ArmandV]

Okay, I'll bite. If you aren't "supposed" to dip the sushi in the soy sauce from the rice end, how else are you going to do it? The shape of the thing does not allow for easy holding with chopsticks. Is there some sort of guide book on proper sushi etiquette?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Unfortunately, all I know is what the sushi chef told me. But since, according to him, you should dip the "meat-end" into the soy sauce by hand and then eat it by hand. We did this, by the way, and it really felt strange, I must admit.

He told us about years ago, when people started dipping the "wrong end" into the soy sauce, many sushi chefs used to get angry at the clientel for this. Is this a true story? I don't really know, as I've never bothered to ask another sushi chef about this (I don't have sushi more than like once a month...)

If you speak enough Japanese and you're in Japan, talk to local sushi chefs! They have many interesting things to say!

[kirei_na_me]

I'd say my husband is a good example...well, in one way in particular.

He is chonan and comes from a pretty old-fashioned and "proper" Japanese family, however, he will not move back to "take care" of his parents. He rebelled against them when he came to live here, and he declared a long time ago, that he wouldn't return to Japan. I always heard that the oldest/only son would always move in with his parents to take care of them. I thought it was just a given, but he certainly proved me wrong.

To some, this may not seem like much, but it is definitely a big deal to other Japanese, especially his parents.

Also, I would say in general, things I've been proven wrong about the Japanese that I know personally, would include: they are not as polite as I thought they were "supposed" to be, they are not as intelligent(according to my definition) as I had always heard, their manners are not nearly as impeccable as I'd thought, and a few other little things that are not really important enough to mention.

[Brooker]

The only person I've ever seen eat sushi with their bare hands was some gaijin construction worker in Seattle. He looked like a complete slob while doing it. Not once have I ever seen a Japanese person eat sushi with their hands and I used to go out for sushi all the time in Japan.

[Uncle Frank]

good old George! He worked at the bar where I did in Fukuoka; never heard his real name, everyone just called him George. He was a Japanese version of Cheech & Chong; always stoned out of his mind. Back in the early 70's he sure stood out, smoked pot, popped pills, sniffed glue, and drank like a fish. He used to pour the little bit of booze left in the bottom of all the glasses into one to drink, ech! He had a large vocab of English, but made no sense, always too stoned. He would have fit right in at Woodstock, but sure was different for a Japanese guy in the early 70's.

Frank

:okashii:

[Brooker]

I've also seen Japanese people get very confrontational with each other. I saw some fairly nasty arguments in the open discussion room at the English school where I worked (although probably fewer than you'd find somewhere other than Japan).

[Maciamo]

I don't know whether this is on topic, but at the sushi restaurant in Birmingham they automatically give you chopsticks. They assume you know how to use them. They have never asked me whether I need a knife or fork.

:D Good one. I'd really want to see someone eat sushi with a knife and fork. Why not eat a banana with a knife and fork too. It would certainly be bette to take the sushi with your hands than with anything else but chopsticks !

[Maciamo]

Unfortunately, all I know is what the sushi chef told me. But since, according to him, you should dip the "meat-end" into the soy sauce by hand and then eat it by hand. We did this, by the way, and it really felt strange, I must admit.

He told us about years ago, when people started dipping the "wrong end" into the soy sauce, many sushi chefs used to get angry at the clientel for this.

I have never seen someone used their hand to eat sushi in Japan, so a lot of Japanese probably don't know the rules... As for diping the meat end, that is why I do instinctively. Good sushi-ya offer a piece of fish much longer than the rice, so dipping the end of it is quite easy. Otherwise, incline the sushi to the side to dip it in the soy sauce. Watch out, anago and unagi do not need soy sauce (there is usually another, sweeter sauce).

[lexico]

I've also seen Japanese people get very confrontational with each other. I saw some fairly nasty arguments in the open discussion room at the English school where I worked.Here's a good one for follow up. How many Japanese does it take to decide on the right number of chopsticks to eat sushi with ? :evil:Why not eat a banana with a knife and fork too. It would certainly be better to take the sushi with your hands than with anything else but chopsticks !Which is easier than having sushi with fork and knife; banana with chopsticks, or banana with fork and knife ? :p

[Maciamo]

He is chonan and comes from a pretty old-fashioned and "proper" Japanese family, however, he will not move back to "take care" of his parents. He rebelled against them when he came to live here, and he declared a long time ago, that he wouldn't return to Japan. I always heard that the oldest/only son would always move in with his parents to take care of them. I thought it was just a given, but he certainly proved me wrong.

Anyway, this tradition is disappearing among younger generations. I don't really know any Japanese in Tokyo up to their late 30's who really care about that. Of course, as you husband is from Gifu (right ?), attitudes may be more conservative there. So it's only normal he should rebel against the system after living abroad.

...they are not as polite as I thought they were "supposed" to be

Politeness tend to be superficial in Japan. When people first visit the country, they are amazed at how many "irasshaimase" and "arigatou gozaimashita" they get. But after a awhile, one can recognise more easily sincere politeness from artificial one. I have no doubt that there are many very kind and truly polite people in Japan, but what characterise better the majority is to be conventional and non-confrontational (which isn't the same as truly kind).

I am still surprised after 4 years at how money regulates relationships in Japan. It seems that people cannot interact without money. Japanese people don't expect to get something free from friends, apart from omiyage. Say, if you best friend is hairdresser, Westerners (not sure if it's in all countries though) might expect to get a free haircut, or at least a discount. If someone in your family is a doctor, Westerners won't expect to pay for the consultation. But this is almost unthinkable in Japan. People go and have their haircut at their friend's so that their friend can make money. They choose to go their relative's for a medical check, so that they can make money. They attend their friends wedding, and give them money (not presents). Everything always have to be about money. No wonder that there is this system of hostess bar in Japan (unknown to me before, although it might exist to an extend in the West), where men are happy to pay just for the company of the hostess and buy them present to "become their friends" (as if money could seal relationships so easily). This sounds just so lame and artificial to me. But there are so many places like that in Japan (we could also include the mama's bar called "snack"), that few working (and married) Japanese men (except very shy ones) have never been to one.

they are not as intelligent(according to my definition) as I had always heard.

Don't even get me started on that. Education in Japan is lamentable, and people are usually disinterested with learning for itself. Typical Japanese prefer what is easy, simple and cute. This strongly contradicts the image of high-tech and hard-working country ("long-working" would be more appropriate, or even "long at waiting in the office for the boss to finish his work and hanging with colleagues in bars after work, and so comes back home at 1am" type of society).

[Maciamo]

I've also seen Japanese people get very confrontational with each other. I saw some fairly nasty arguments in the open discussion room at the English school where I worked (although probably fewer than you'd find somewhere other than Japan).

This, I still have to see after 4 years ! (except for drunken salarymen on Friday night, or mentally unstable old women or homeless talking alone in the street and suddenly insulting a passerby). If one stereotypes holds true for 99.9% of the Japanese I have met, it is that they are non-confrontational.

[Brooker]

Politeness tend to be superficial in Japan. When people first visit the country, they are amazed at how many "irasshaimase" and "arigatou gozaimashita" they get. But after a awhile, one can recognise more easily sincere politeness from artificial one.

Being polite and kind are two very different things. I think being polite means acting nicely towards someone when you really don't want to. By this definition, the Japanese are very polite.

To me, being kind is being nice just because you want to.

This, I still have to see after 4 years ! (except for drunken salarymen on Friday night, or mentally unstable old women or homeless talking alone in the street and suddenly insulting a passerby). If one stereotypes holds true for 99.9% of the Japanese I have met, it is that they are non-confrontational.

Well to be honest, I only noticed it once. One student got angry with another about how much control he exerted over his girlfriend, accusing him of treating his girlfriend like a dog. When the conversation got heated, the accuser got up a left before things got worse. But it was a rather tense few moments. I just kind of let them go at it since I'd never witnessed such a thing before in Japan and kind of wanted to see how it turned out. On top of that, I liked that the students were talking for once, rather than just sitting there listening to me talk. :blush:

[Mikawa Ossan]

I have no doubt that there are many very kind and truly polite people in Japan, but what characterise better the majority is to be conventional and non-confrontational (which isn't the same as truly kind).
Yes, and I hear the same is true of Korea, too. However I've noticed that there seems to be a growing population of people who have realized that they can take this inclination for nonconfrontation to their advantage and purposely confront people to get their way. For example skipping in a long line to get into a restaurant. If someone politely mentions that the end of the queue is w-a-y o-v-e-r t-h-e-r-e, the skipping culprit will get angry and yell at the unlucky person trying to do everyone a service. Of course he backs down and the skipper gets his undeserved place in line. It's not common, but I do see things like that from time to time.


Don't even get me started on that. Education in Japan is lamentable, and people are usually disinterested with learning for itself. Typical Japanese prefer what is easy, simple and cute. This strongly contradicts the image of high-tech and hard-working country ("long-working" would be more appropriate, or even "long at waiting in the office for the boss to finish his work and hanging with colleagues in bars after work, and so comes back home at 1am" type of society).
I understand it's very easy to get jaded after living here for several years, but please remember that you're talking about the average person. There are plenty of people who are more "enlightened" so to speak, and like learning difficult things. People from my native country (USA) on the whole are no better than Japanese on the whole. Or at least that's in my experience. You might say that I have very low expectations of Japanese people, but no lower than I do of anyone else. If you want to find intelligent people, you can find them, but when you talk about people in the aggregate remember that what you say can only ever apply to a certain percentage of the population. Please don't get too jaded, Maciamo! :(

As far as the hard working mentality goes, every Japanese person I know above a certain age laments the exact same thing. I think there's a certain lack of direction and a certain amount of soul-searching in the country as a whole behind this, though.

[Kara_Nari]

I understand the helping out friends who do a certain service, which you sometimes require. When hairdressing in NZ, I wouldnt cut my western friends hair for free, unless it was my mother or boyfriend. My Japanese friends wouldnt pay, but they wouldnt come to my work either, instead they would give me gifts or take me out for dinner.
I think its insulting that my friends would expect a free haircut. My best friends were the ones that I would have been more willing to do it for, but cutting hair for free is something that you do when you VERY first start out hairdressing. Yet my best friends would pay knowing that they were getting a good price compared to what they got in the salon.

As for queue jumping, aaarrrgghhhh I havent had it done in Japan, but in Korea... even at the drug store, when the chemist is explaining for me how to take my medicine, which is important when it takes me a bit longer than natives to understand. People will just come in, not caring that the chemist is busy and start yelling stuff at them, or demanding things. Its also common to just wander in somewhere without looking if its busy and just yell out your request to anyone in particular.
Havent seen anything close to that in Japan.
It doesnt bother me that all the irrashaimase, and arigatou gozaimashitas are superficial, at least they are acknowledging that you are there, or that you are leaving. Nothing worse than going somewhere and being ignored. Also they arent pushy and dont follow right up your arse when you are just looking.
Ugh I just dont think I want to go home tomorrow.

[Maciamo]

Being polite and kind are two very different things. I think being polite means acting nicely towards someone when you really don't want to. By this definition, the Japanese are very polite.

To me, being kind is being nice just because you want to.

I know, but there are things that fal in either category, such as keeping the door open for the person that follows you, letting elderly people sit in the train, or letting someone with just a few articles pass before you at the supermarket casher when you have a full shopping cart. These are usually considered polite in the West (at least well-mannered), but they are rather unusual in Japan.

That is why I say that many Japanese (with the notable exception of my wife) are polite superficially, but in fact quite selfish and not really kind once it comes to situation they aren't used to (as if they couldn't be kind/polite in situations they were not taught, because they cannot put themselves in someone else's shoes, it seems, or just don't care).

I don't know how things are in the US, but compared to Belgium or other EU countries where I lived, I found it much rarer for the Japanese to help each other spontaneously.

[Maciamo]

I understand the helping out friends who do a certain service, which you sometimes require. When hairdressing in NZ, I wouldnt cut my western friends hair for free, unless it was my mother or boyfriend. My Japanese friends wouldnt pay, but they wouldnt come to my work either, instead they would give me gifts or take me out for dinner.
I think its insulting that my friends would expect a free haircut.

Usually friends help each others. So in exchange for a free haircut, you'd do something for them whenever they need it. In most cases the free service takes less time and energy than help people emotionally (e.g. in hard times, after a break up, when someone died, etc.). Naturally, I am talking about close friends that meet quite often, not just ordinary friends we meet once every blue moon. I French there are two very common words for friend : ami and copain. The former refers to a "real friend", while the other refers more to "regular" friends, workmates, classmates, or even acquaintances.

As for queue jumping, aaarrrgghhhh I havent had it done in Japan, but in Korea... even at the drug store, when the chemist is explaining for me how to take my medicine, which is important when it takes me a bit longer than natives to understand. People will just come in, not caring that the chemist is busy and start yelling stuff at them, or demanding things. Its also common to just wander in somewhere without looking if its busy and just yell out your request to anyone in particular.

Interesting. I know that Chinese people tend to be more like that (i.e. manners are relatively unimportant). It's not even that they try to "cheat", but rather that they don't think about manners at all (i.e. don't get shocked if a Chinese guy put his elbow in your face while rasing his hand to attract someone's attention and don't even notice you).

Havent seen anything close to that in Japan.
It doesnt bother me that all the irrashaimase, and arigatou gozaimashitas are superficial, at least they are acknowledging that you are there, or that you are leaving. Nothing worse than going somewhere and being ignored. Also they arent pushy and dont follow right up your arse when you are just looking.

I don't mind this superficiality, except when the shop attendant sound really bored and you feel they are just saying it as a duty. I also don't like when they follow you around and keep saying "irasshaimase" 2 or 3 times to say "I am watching you". That just makes me want to leave the shop in disgust. (I have no tolerance for thieves, and even less for those who behave as if I were a thief - thereof my utmost contempt for Japanese policemen who stop me on my bicycle in the middle of the day).

[Brooker]

@Maciamo...
I was taught by my family to open doors for women and let old people sit on buses and things like that. Maybe if I hadn't been taught that, I wouldn't do it. So maybe we're all trained for what polite things are expected of us.

I think it may also have something to do with how the Japanese feel that you must "repay" a favor if one is done for you. In the example of letting someone go ahead of you in line or letting someone sit on the train, that might be an awkward situation for the receiver of the favor because they'll really have no way to repay the favor. And the giver of the favor might rather spare the receiver of that awkwardness. I'm not making a judgment call here, just taking a guess as to what might be going through their minds in this type of situation.

I offered my seat to a few people in Japan, and, although I'm sure they appreciated it, they all seemed very uncomfortable about it - maybe cause it doesn't happen often, maybe cause I'm gaijin, or maybe because of my repayment theory.

[Kara_Nari]

I hate when I give up my seat for the elderly, and then there are still school kids, who have actually been brought up to respect elderly and just leave them to wobble around right next to them.
One time I actually hit a kid on the head because he was blatantly looking away while an old Korean man was trying hard to balance right next to him. It makes me so mad.
The elderly seem to get such a shock when a non korean does acts like this.　Maybe secretly they know how the ajummas push and barge, and dont expect this to happen? Nah thats just me being silly. There is nothing wrong with common politeness.
Maciamo your comment on Ｔｈｅ real friends and other friends is exactly how I look at my friends, and its changed considerably since coming overseas and realising who can be bothered to remember you exist. I dont care though, the people I cared about most came through.

[Maciamo]

I think it may also have something to do with how the Japanese feel that you must "repay" a favor if one is done for you. In the example of letting someone go ahead of you in line or letting someone sit on the train, that might be an awkward situation for the receiver of the favor because they'll really have no way to repay the favor. And the giver of the favor might rather spare the receiver of that awkwardness. I'm not making a judgment call here, just taking a guess as to what might be going through their minds in this type of situation.

I offered my seat to a few people in Japan, and, although I'm sure they appreciated it, they all seemed very uncomfortable about it - maybe cause it doesn't happen often, maybe cause I'm gaijin, or maybe because of my repayment theory.

I was taught that true kindness does not need anything in exchange. Maybe it is a New Testament value (and I am not Christian), but this value has become ingrained in the culture. I have never been taught to let people pass in front of me at the cashier. People do it, and if someone ever do it for you, you feel that you should also do it for others next time. As for letting the elderly/disabled sit in trains, there are signs telling people to do it in Japan (in the priority seats area), but some people won't do it eventhough, because they are too selfish. So, even though the authorities try to change the mentalities, there seem to be a strong resistance from a big part of the Japanese population (there are exceptions, such as my wife, as I said).