Old traditions disappearing owing to Western influences

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hi there :)
I recently started collecting various kimono and obi and i have also started to do alot of research on these interesting japanese cultural traditions, but more than i ever i have begun to realise how seemingly the kimono and other traditional japanese items of clothing are loosing popularity with the youth of japan.
Japanese way of life including its traditional clothing is becomming more and more westernised, even though i am not japanese myself it feels me with sadness that perhaps the day where wearing kimono will seem a distant memory of a quaint tradition is nearing.
Perhaps the kimono with other traditions of japan will also disappear- more and more people appear to prefer western style weddings, wearing western style clothing, fogetting the celebrations of old traditions and customs and becomming less interested in the many ancient skills and arts japan has to offer.
But these are things that make japan, japan- they make it stand out from the rest of the mass of other countrys in this world.
I've read a couple of threads of people comenting on how silly some japanese traditions are or even complaining about them.
In places like spain, i here many people complaining now days that spain just another england but with warmer weather and it has hardly any other difference between it and england. Everybody knows how to speak english over there and there are package holiday resorts all over the place and you see more foreign people than native people on your holiday. The same is also true for places like france and italy and other countrys. I've noticed many japanese people seem to think its cool being western, they have it all etc, but not all western things are cool i think.
I think more than ever in this day and age of stating yourself as an individual is so important, holding onto what makes your country unique and individual is also important.
I know im just having a silly philosophical moment of wishful thinking, but do any of you ever think it is sad that japan is becomming more and more just like any other western country today? Or am i worrying about nothing?
What are your opinions on the subject- do you think there are any japanese traditions/customs/practices that should become more westernised or forgotton completely or you just think are plain old fashioned/silly?
Do you think people should try to hold on to what makes there country special like various traditions and cultures and take interest in their heritage or even just wear kimono more often?

If you went to japan, would you prefer to see a country where everybody wore the same type of cloths as you, lived the same ways of day to day life, spoke the same languages and nobody looked twice at you?
Or would you prefer to go to a country full of exotic foreign culture and clothing, interesting old customs and traditions and you were always putting your brain cells to use learning a new language/s?
Or maybe somthing inbetween?
If you are japanese, are there some japanese traditions/customs/practices that you don't follow however minor they may seem or some western practices like walking around with shoes indoors that you would never do?
How many times a year would you say you wear kimono and do you own any and if so, how many? Do your parents always reprimand you on your ways/manners? Do you act differently around westerners?

Sorry for all the questions, i just wanted to hear your views on this topic :relief:

[RockLee]

it's indeed sad, I like Japan because it's so different from my culture.Hope Asia won't westernise too much :worried:

[misa.j]

Hi Tokis-Phoenix,
I think the reasons why Kimono is not worn by Japanese people as much as you would expect are that it's very expensive, unpractical, and not suitable for modern Japanese living. A very good Kimono is made with silk which is produced from the silkworms, very unpopular industry because of the labor, and thus it's expensive.

They do still wear it for a special occasion, or people who work at "Ryoutei"(authentic Japanese restaurant), Geisha wear it daily.

[Maciamo]

Japanese way of life including its traditional clothing is becomming more and more westernised, even though i am not japanese myself it feels me with sadness that perhaps the day where wearing kimono will seem a distant memory of a quaint tradition is nearing.

What do you mean ? How often do you see people clothes like that in Europe :

http://eupedia.jref.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/582/limit/recent

Fashion evolves with time. Shall we be sad because people don't wear the same clothes now as in the 1980's, 70's, 60's, etc. ? Shall we be sad because people don't wear white wigs and cocked hat ?


Perhaps the kimono with other traditions of japan will also disappear- more and more people appear to prefer western style weddings, wearing western style clothing, fogetting the celebrations of old traditions and customs and becomming less interested in the many ancient skills and arts japan has to offer.

Many traditions disappear all over the world (including Western countries) because they have become useless or redundant. It has always been like that and will always be like that. Basically, that's why we have (folk) museums, encyclopedias and history books to preserve them.


But these are things that make japan, japan- they make it stand out from the rest of the mass of other countrys in this world.

Really ? Do Chinese or Korean people wear their traditional clothes more than in Japan ? What about South East Asians ? I have visited most countries in East Asia and I can tell you that Western clothes are dominant everywhere.

I've read a couple of threads of people comenting on how silly some japanese traditions are or even complaining about them.

For example ?


In places like spain, i here many people complaining now days that spain just another england but with warmer weather and it has hardly any other difference between it and england. Everybody knows how to speak english over there and there are package holiday resorts all over the place and you see more foreign people than native people on your holiday.

Well, you sure do have serious misconceptions about Spain. Your image of Spain is mostly limited to a few beach resorts on the Costa del Sol. In other resorts, they speak German or Dutch. Same for Turkey. I have lived a bit in Barcelona, Salamaca and Sevilla, and travelled all around Spain, but I can tell you that in most cities people do not speak muc English and certainly don't care much about England or other countries for their culture. Spaniards are proud people. They would never worship English culture or language the way some Japanese do. As for traditions, I believe that Spain has done a better job in keeping them than England. Just look at all the festivals around Spain that date back to 500 years or more.

I've noticed many japanese people seem to think its cool being western, they have it all etc, but not all western things are cool i think.

That's because most Japanese have a very distorted image of the West. They cannot tell you the differences between European countries, which are sometimes bigger than between Japan and China. For most Japanese, the image of the West is Hollywood.


I think more than ever in this day and age of stating yourself as an individual is so important, holding onto what makes your country unique and individual is also important.

This is a typically British value. Individualism is one of the Western (in fact British or Northern European) way of thinking that is slowly taking over and changing Japanese culture based on collectivism.


I know im just having a silly philosophical moment of wishful thinking, but do any of you ever think it is sad that japan is becomming more and more just like any other western country today? Or am i worrying about nothing?

Japan is still deeply impregnated with Confucian values (seniority system, honorific language, vertical hierarchy, elders in positions of power, women at home, etc.). Much more so than China, where it originated, but has been virtually wiped out by communism. Interestingly, I think that China has lost more of its traditional culture than Japan, and that happened without much Western influence - just communism.


What are your opinions on the subject- do you think there are any japanese traditions/customs/practices that should become more westernised or forgotton completely or you just think are plain old fashioned/silly?

How can we discuss that if you don't give examples and look at them one by one ? But I don't think many Japanese want to wear kimonos on a regular basis. It's still surprising that so many do wear kimono for one day for their coming of age and/or wedding. Yukata are much more common. The Japanese (at least the women) still wear them for fireworks in summer, after a bath or when visiting a hot spring resort (which they do very often). How often do you wear a wig, tights and cocked hat for special occasions ?


If you went to japan, would you prefer to see a country where everybody wore the same type of cloths as you, lived the same ways of day to day life, spoke the same languages and nobody looked twice at you?

In your dreams maybe. Maybe they should open some kind of theme parks for Western tourists like you. Do you know how difficult it it to walk with a kimono ? Can you sincerely imagine that people would go to work, school or nightclubs like that ? As for the language, I don't understand what you mean. All the Japanese speak Japanese as their mother-tongue - not like many Americans, Canadians or even Brits speak English as theirs ! Japan is not Singapore. English is not an official language, not spoken at a fluent level by many people, and no other languages than Japanese is common (Singapore has various Chinese dialects, Malaysian, Tamil, English and other languages). Anyway, are you saying that diversity is a bad thing ?


Or would you prefer to go to a country full of exotic foreign culture and clothing, interesting old customs and traditions and you were always putting your brain cells to use learning a new language/s?

Again, theme park mentality. As for the new language, you can already do that now in Japan or in Spain. I did it for both countries. In fact it was easier in Spain, because people don't try to practice their English on you just because you look like someone who could speak English.

[blade_bltz]

Most Japanese people I have talked to view this phenomenon less as "Westernization" but more so as simply embracing the present/future. It's a national mindset. (obviously there are tons of people who revere old traditions...as with people in any country). I think you'd be hard pressed to find a country in which traditions survive completely intact over time, especially in an international world. This is not the isolationist Japan of the past. Sure, this phenomenon may indeed have been caused by Westernization...but that fact shouldn't count as a strike against your image of Japan.

[Silverpoint]

I recently started collecting various kimono and obi and i have also started to do alot of research on these interesting japanese cultural traditions, but more than i ever i have begun to realise how seemingly the kimono and other traditional japanese items of clothing are loosing popularity with the youth of japan.

I agree that you rarely see a young person wearing kimono for general use, but I don't think there's any impending danger of young people losing interest in kimono. I think in reality the status of the traditional costume has changed from daily wear, to special occasions. Girls clearly enjoy wearing kimono or yukata (summer kimono) at parties, weddings, New Year celebrations and other events such as summer fireworks. Yukata in particular are available in bright and vibrant colors with matching bags and accessories, which appeal to younger women and allow them to preserve the 'cuteness' factor which they value so highly.

I think essentially kimono has gone the same way as other costumes such as the Scottish kilt. No-one wears a kilt every day in Scotland any more, but a great number of Scotsman either own, or know their tartan and would take great pride in wearing it given the opportunity.


I know im just having a silly philosophical moment of wishful thinking, but do any of you ever think it is sad that japan is becomming more and more just like any other western country today? Or am i worrying about nothing?

I do agree to a point that young Japanese people look to the west a little too much at times although I suspect that really what we're talking about here is looking to America. While young Japanese may be aware of other countries like Britain, France etc. I don't think there is much influence other than occasional fashion successes (Louis Vuitton, Burberry etc). When you see young people walking around in hip-hop clothing or other street wear, they may look like British kids, but that's partly because Britain copied America too.


What are your opinions on the subject- do you think there are any japanese traditions/customs/practices that should become more westernised or forgotton completely or you just think are plain old fashioned/silly?

There are a number of areas where following a western lead would certainly make life easier, but I think these are probably not the areas you are talking about. For example, the ludicrousness of a modern country like Japan still having ATM machines that shutdown in the middle of the evening is a quaint and frankly inconvenient anomoly, that is well overdue a change. When you live in Japan, you start to feel that this is probably the only country in the world where the decision makers could actually believe that having 'limited-use' ATMs is somehow more desirable than offering a 24 hour service.

Perhaps I'm straying a little from the simple day-to-day traditions the OP talked about but bear with me. There are other ways that Japan could change in the future that go further than just style of dress. I guess what I'm really talking about is a change of mindset by the older generations who are still controlling the status quo.

My gut feeling is that the banking situation is probably related to the 'protectionist' attitude that pervades Japanese regulatory systems and ends up lowering the end service. For example, in Sapporo every year we have a big beer festival during August which is held by the 4 main Japanese breweries. It's fantastic and truly one of the social highpoints of the year to be able to sit under the trees in Odori Park on a balmy summer evening and have a waiter service bring you ice cold beers anytime you want. Except last orders are 9.30pm and you get kicked out at 10. Why? Because the local government is concerned that the local bars and restaurants will suffer a loss of trade and so deliberately closes the festival just when you're starting to relax, to force people to go out and spend money elsewhere.

Likewise in many Japanese cities (such as Sapporo where I live) the subway closes just after midnight. It could easily open later and there would be plenty of demand, but the government is concerned that this would affect the taxi trade. So I have a choice of either running to a station at about 11.50pm and paying 280 yen to get home, or if I want to stay out a little later and have fun with my friends, I have the expense of adding another 3,000 yen to my bill for the cost of a cab. There are numerous examples like this, and sometimes it feels like the entire Japanese business world exists in some kind of co-dependant house of cards. Change one part of the food chain, and the whole thing will collapse.

But should this kind of thing be changed? I don't know. Because at the end of the day, it seems to work. Taxi drivers can still (just about) make a living. Local restaurants and bars don't get thrashed every August. It doesn't suit me, but maybe my occasional inconvenience makes a better deal for everyone (although I'm starting to sound more and more like a fully paid up member of the red brigade!) I'm a management consultant by profession, so I'm about as pro-capitalist market forces as they come, but I can't help admitting I have grudging respect for certain Japanese ways of doing things, and I wonder whether a change to western values would actually help or damage the country as a whole.

They still need to change the bloody ATMs though.


How can we discuss that if you don't give examples and look at them one by one ?
Err... quite easily. Most people posess the intelligence to be able to debate a topic without needing to be spoon-fed ideas. I'd really stay away from trying to pick holes in other peoples posts. It clearly isn't your forte.

[Maciamo]

I do agree to a point that young Japanese people look to the west a little too much at times although I suspect that really what we're talking about here is looking to America.

Not for food and fashion ! I'd say that France and Italy have about as much influence (more for food and fashion) than the US.

When you see young people walking around in hip-hop clothing or other street wear, they may look like British kids, but that's partly because Britain copied America too.

Err, hip hop culture is not really dominant in Japan. (European) brand clothes are much more popular (at least in Tokyo). Even British ones. Burberrys works very well in Tokyo.

There are a number of areas where following a western lead would certainly make life easier, but I think these are probably not the areas you are talking about. For example, the ludicrousness of a modern country like Japan still having ATM machines that shutdown in the middle of the evening is a quaint and frankly inconvenient anomoly, that is well overdue a change. When you live in Japan, you start to feel that this is probably the only country in the world where the decision makers could actually believe that having 'limited-use' ATMs is somehow more desirable than offering a 24 hour service.
...
Likewise in many Japanese cities (such as Sapporo where I live) the subway closes just after midnight. It could easily open later and there would be plenty of demand, but the government is concerned that this would affect the taxi trade. So I have a choice of either running to a station at about 11.50pm and paying 280 yen to get home, or if I want to stay out a little later and have fun with my friends, I have the expense of adding another 3,000 yen to my bill for the cost of a cab. There are numerous examples like this, and sometimes it feels like the entire Japanese business world exists in some kind of co-dependant house of cards. Change one part of the food chain, and the whole thing will collapse.

Very good summary of the Japanese system of protection of businesses. But is that really something that has to do with a "lack of Westernization" ? I mean, other Asian countries aren't like Japan, and there are some European countries that also protect businesses like Japan. For example, in many EU countries supermarkets or chain shops cannot open 24h because it would be detrimental for small shop owners. So what does it have to do with the Westernization of Japan ? All countries have different systems, but they are not necessarily deeply rooted into the culture itself - just lobby groups and politicians.


Err... quite easily. Most people posess the intelligence to be able to debate a topic without needing to be spoon-fed ideas. I'd really stay away from trying to pick holes in other peoples posts. It clearly isn't your forte.

I only asked for concrete examples because I couldn't think of Japanese traditions/customs/practices that really needed to be "Westernised". Many things have to be changed in Japan (esp. legislation), but also in Western countries. Things have to evolve or progress, but it has little to do with Westernization.

[Silverpoint]

Err, hip hop culture is not really dominant in Japan.

I didn't say it was. (In 'journalistic' tradition, "Err" is normally used when someone has made a blatant error, but since I didn't make the point you're disagreeing with, I'm a little confused as to why you felt it necessary)

Even British ones. Burberrys works very well in Tokyo.

Indeed. I believe I mentioned that in my post.

Very good summary of the Japanese system of protection of businesses. But is that really something that has to do with a "lack of Westernization" ? I mean, other Asian countries aren't like Japan, and there are some European countries that also protect businesses like Japan. For example, in many EU countries supermarkets or chain shops cannot open 24h because it would be detrimental for small shop owners. So what does it have to do with the Westernization of Japan ? All countries have different systems, but they are not necessarily deeply rooted into the culture itself - just lobby groups and politicians.


That wasn't really my point. Of course protectionism exists in other cultures, but it is often instilled by governments, despite, rather than due to the local culture. Ask the average European (who understands it) what they think of the Common Agricultural Policy and the vast majority will tell you its a deeply flawed system, whereas the system in Japan is uniquely pervasive and accepted without question.


I only asked for concrete examples because I couldn't think of Japanese traditions/customs/practices that really needed to be "Westernised".

No. You asked how can this issue be discussed without examples. Just because you couldn't come up with an answer, doesn't mean that no one else could. Or do you speak on behalf of all of us?

[Maciamo]

That wasn't really my point. Of course protectionism exists in other cultures, but it is often instilled by governments, despite, rather than due to the local culture. Ask the average European (who understands it) what they think of the Common Agricultural Policy and the vast majority will tell you its a deeply flawed system, whereas the system in Japan is uniquely pervasive and accepted without question.

I talked about it with many Japanese (e.g. high price of fruits, taxis, ANA and JAL fixing prices on shinkansen prices, which in turn adapt their prices to highway fees, etc.) and I didn't find even 10% who agreed with this system. Some said that it was outrageous but there was little they could do about it. It's basically the same as in Europe.

No. You asked how can this issue be discussed without examples. Just because you couldn't come up with an answer, doesn't mean that no one else could. Or do you speak on behalf of all of us?

I wasn't talking on everyone's behalf. I was replying to Tokis-Phoenix, and asked him to provide examples if he wanted that I reply. I said "How can we discuss that if you don't give examples...", the "we" meaning "you and me", and "you" being singular. I am sorry that English can sometimes be an ambiguous language. Not being a native speaker, I sometimes forget that there is no difference between singular and plural "you" (like in most other languages I speak) and that it can lead to confusion. Likewise, some languages (e.g. Chinese) have two "we", an exclusive one that mean "we, except you" and an inclusive one that mean "you and I". I meant to use the latter.

[Silverpoint]

I talked about it with many Japanese (e.g. high price of fruits, taxis, ANA and JAL fixing prices on shinkansen prices, which in turn adapt their prices to highway fees, etc.) and I didn't find even 10% who agreed with this system. Some said that it was outrageous but there was little they could do about it. It's basically the same as in Europe.


I don't agree at all. Protectionist intervention by individual states is largely the exception in western countries rather than the norm, despite the 'nannying' attitude of the European Parliament. As I pointed out before (somewhere in this forum), I'm a management consultant. I don't wish to suggest I have some superior knowledge of global governmental economic policy, but at the end of the day it is my job. When it comes to restriction of trade or protectionism, the western model operates much more on a macro level (e.g. import tarrifs).

[yukio_michael]

If you went to japan, would you prefer to see a country where everybody wore the same type of cloths as you, lived the same ways of day to day life, spoke the same languages and nobody looked twice at you?
Or would you prefer to go to a country full of exotic foreign culture and clothing, interesting old customs and traditions and you were always putting your brain cells to use learning a new language/s?
Or maybe somthing inbetween?I live in Japan, and after the first month of a new gaijin in a small town, people treat me the same as everyone else... They all wear similar clothes, you see people wearing yukata for summer matsuri, you see women in kimono, you see people wearing every day clothes... it's a community, not a theme park.

Sometimes when I hear people complaining about how 'westernized' Japan is becoming, I think they want it to retain whatever image it is that THEY have of Japan... we want Japan to be our quaint and ancient cultural amusement park, it satisfies our need for the exotic... the more 'western' it seems, the less it satisfies that desire. The thing is, I never hear any Japanese friends complaining about it, rather they are quite concious of their own traditions and embrace them in the manners that they feel fit.

When you say words like 'exotic' your fretishizing a country for whom, exotica is simply cultural history... these cultural adherences wane through time, the only people who have a right to cling to them are the natural born Japanese themselves, and I don't hear a lot of clinging going on.

The same thing happens any time there is a McDonalds introduced in say, Thailand, you have all these backpackers decry that, but then the expats themselves will tell you just how many Thai people are eating there... we assume that the Japanese are being conquered by western culture, and that just isn't true... not in the slightest, if anything it's a one way system... things come in, get filtered, and stay here. Japan is still very much Japan, it's not westernized in the slightest.

Just my opinion...

[Maciamo]

it's a community, not a theme park.
...
I think they want it to retain whatever image it is that THEY have of Japan... we want Japan to be our quaint and ancient cultural amusement park, it satisfies our need for the exotic... the more 'western' it seems, the less it satisfies that desire.

Exactly ! :cool: Maybe that is why some foreigners in Japan end up restoring and living in old traditional Japanese houses, wear kimono more often than the Japanese, or collect lot's of "exotic" traditional objects (red lanterns, kanji signs, lacquer bowls, katana...) to satisfy this urge for exoticism.

Some of these people insist on eating everything with chopsticks, even if it is not a dish made to be eaten with chopsticks. Some insist on using 'real' Japanese words instead of katakana ones. In my first year in Japan, I also asked why people used doa- (ドアー) instead of tobira (扉) or te-buru (テーブル) instead of shokutaku (食卓). French people even translate PC words "mouse" into "souris", so why would the Japanese call it mouse and not nezumi ? I gave up on that when I realised that it was useless trying to sound more Japanese than necessary, as we end up sounding foreign for not using foreign words !

Others learn about customs and traditions that most Japanese don't know or care about. It is just because they want to preserve this kind of exotism or at least the image they had of Japan. My biggest shock in this regard was the appalling modern architecture, nothing like the traditional tea houses or temples they show you in travel guides (unlike for European countries).

[lexico]

So true, painfully true...(about what ?)...it apprears that I am agreeing with every point made, but I should contribute my own, recalling the American tourists who went to China and insisted that dog meat be served when the locals did not have the practice, but guests are to be treated with tolerance, so what can you say, hehe.

It might indeed seem odd, out of place for a visitor, or even a naturalised person to be more Japanese than the native Japanese themselves. From observations on reverse-culture shock experienced by returning nationals, it could also be said that time away makes the heart fonder, sometimes in a healthy, sometimes in a self-deceptive way.

As for the host culture/community, these "odd balls" from another place could be looked down upon with disdain, looked up to for guidance, or simply accepted as welcome, positive criticisers for the commmunity to grow and evolve if somewhat in an anachronistic way. Finally I would like to add that the community can transform into a virtual theme park for anyone with the time/passion to see more of what there is to see than what is on the surface. Essentially, those who love the most are not only the greatest trouble makers but also the greatest reformers a/o restorers. :p

[Index]

The other day I heard a report on the radio of a town (unfortunately I can't remember where but perhaps Eastern Europe) where the loclas are setting up their houses as tourist destinations so tourists can go and experience the 'real' flavour of that culture. The entire family takes part, wearing traditional clothes, cooking traditional food etc. I think its disgusting when you start using your own family and house for the sake of tourists-the commercialization of the family? Its one of the ugly sides of capitalist thought.

[yukio_michael]

Some insist on using 'real' Japanese words instead of katakana ones.I too have read that some people avoid using katakana words, exactly because they sound 'too american', even though some katakana words are inhereted from Dutch as well, and other places, & are simply loan words.

Katakana words are a great way to increase your vocabulary because the words may have some relationship to the language you already know, but people who try to over-assimilate avoid them because they feel that the words aren't Japanese-enough. When I don't exactly know the name of a particular noun-object, in conversation sometimes I will guess at what it might be in katakana,and usually it's enough for someone to either explain what the Japanese word would be, or simply slightly adjust the katakana equivalent.

This actually was a great help to me when talking to the Yahoo BB installer, as many of the things we were speaking of dealing with the computer were katakana words...

edited for stupid typos....

[Silverpoint]

Personally I find it a little disappointing when I walk into a restaurant and see "raisu" on the menu. It's only entered the English diet relatively recently, and I find it difficult to understand why katakana is necessary.

I have a pet theory (although many disagree) that 100 years from now, the Japanese are going to speak a strange pseudo-English, such is the import of words into the language in recent years.

[Maciamo]

Personally I find it a little disappointing when I walk into a restaurant and see "raisu" on the menu. It's only entered the English diet relatively recently, and I find it difficult to understand why katakana is necessary.

Yes, and there are hundreds of such examples or useless use of katakana words.


I have a pet theory (although many disagree) that 100 years from now, the Japanese are going to speak a strange pseudo-English, such is the import of words into the language in recent years.

I thought exactly the same ! :p

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I talked about it with many Japanese (e.g. high price of fruits, taxis, ANA and JAL fixing prices on shinkansen prices, which in turn adapt their prices to highway fees, etc.) and I didn't find even 10% who agreed with this system. Some said that it was outrageous but there was little they could do about it. It's basically the same as in Europe.



I wasn't talking on everyone's behalf. I was replying to Tokis-Phoenix, and asked him to provide examples if he wanted that I reply. I said "How can we discuss that if you don't give examples...", the "we" meaning "you and me", and "you" being singular. I am sorry that English can sometimes be an ambiguous language. Not being a native speaker, I sometimes forget that there is no difference between singular and plural "you" (like in most other languages I speak) and that it can lead to confusion. Likewise, some languages (e.g. Chinese) have two "we", an exclusive one that mean "we, except you" and an inclusive one that mean "you and I". I meant to use the latter.


Geez! It was my first thread ever on this forum, you do not have to act so harshly, by the way i am a girl as you will know if you look in my profile or read my introduction thread on this forum...I am sorry if i have seriously offended your opinions on japan, i just wanted to chat to people...