How do you or modern japanese veiw geisha?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I know it may sound silly to some of you but i find geisha and the "flower and willow world" and their history realy interesting and i admire many geisha.
I know that there are very few proper geisha left today and its one of those traditional japanese traditions that seems to be struggling to stay alive today in comparison to how it used to be before WW2.
I was wondering, how do japanese people or you view geisha in general? If you could have the money to spare, would you ever go to a geisha party? Do you see them as an interesting old traditional type but too old fashioned to you? If you are a girl and were young enough and had the oppotunity, would being a geisha somthing appeal to you as a way of life? Do you ever or would you ever wear kimono every now and then if the situation to do so arose? Do you think kimono are attractive(either mens or womens kimono)?

Just interested in your views, comments and opinions on this traditional way of life and things related to it and what it means to you :) .

[Tokis-Phoenix]

No one interested?

[Kara_Nari]

Hi!
Yeah, when I was younger, and even now, Im fascinated by Geisha.
I wanted to learn Shamisen, and dancing.
I worked in a Japanese hair salon, and for a while there I wanted to learn to be a Katsura, studying under some ancient old man, who had been making the geisha wigs for years.
The girls would teach me everything they knew, how to walk, talk, dance, etc.
I wanted to wear a Yukata in Japan when I went, because it was sooo hot! Actually I spent most of the daytime sleeping, so didnt excercise that wish.
Everything about it interests me deeply, however I was surprised that many Japanese friends and their families didnt know too much about it. So half the time I would try and teach them what I knew.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hi Kari Nari :) , i've always wanted to wear kimono as well although i only own a Tsukesage and Uchikake, i think i would probably look a bit silly in kimono being English and all :bluush: . But i would still like to try it once i have all the proper gear and some more everyday kimono.
Im suprised though most japanese don't know much about geisha as i thought they were sort of considered a national treasure over there or a respectable tradition. I think there are somthing like only 60 official geisha working in Gion now while there used to be over 800 before WW2 and it is mainly american buisness men keeping the tradition alive rather than japanese ones.
Why are they not so popular now days as they used to be- is it because they no longer sell their mizuage?

[Index]

So you want to be a high class call-girl serving men for money?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I know i couldn't because i am not japanese or even remotely asian looking, theres only been one westerner in all of geisha history that has ever become a geisha and she was offered the opotunity after years of studying the giesha way of life.
Geisha are trained in the arts of singing, dancing, various musical instruments and the art of conversation and socialising- there is no prostitution involved as some people believe. Its hard way of life, many many years of training, but i don't see what isn't appealing about earning huge sums of money, wearing expensive beautiful clothes and going to partys and entertaining people as a living?

[Index]

It's true that whether a geisha slept with her patron was to a certain degree up to her, though who knows what kind of pressures exist in a world which trains you from a young age to be amusement for men, especially when you had a mama-san on your back to make sure that your client came back. In any case, in the end geisha still make money as play-things for rich men, and if it's worth trading in your dignity and freedom for money, parties, nice clothing, and attention, then like you say, it might be appealing.

[nice gaijin]

hmm, geishas are not call-girls, they are traditional entertainers. 芸者 means artist/performer, not whore.

Perhaps the decline of geisha is related to the rise of hostesses? officially they are supposed to be serving a similar purpose, except hostesses are more like modern, talentless geisha (and a popular job for foreign girls)

[Index]

hmm, geishas are not call-girls, they are traditional entertainers. 芸者 means artist/performer, not whore.



That's a pretty basic understanding of language learning you have demonstrated there. Ever considered the pragmatics in language use? It's not just what the kanji mean in a dictionary, but how they are used and what the social-linguistic-pragmatic connotations are. These are more important than a dictionary definition. How do you explain 信号 then? It means traffic lights, but the individual characters stand for 'belief' and 'issue/number'. Another example is 師走, which means December, though the individual kanji stand for 'master' and 'run'.

Perhaps you should talk to a hostess from Ginza and see how often she has been asked to become an aijin for money and presents　(I'm referring of course to the way 愛人 might be used in practice, not how a dictionary explains it).

[Kinsao]

I don't know anything about geisha. I have read some books but I don't know how it is really. I agree they are not just whore but more like 'entertainer', having many skills. But I wonder why do people idealise the geisha life? It can't just all be fun, wearing nice clothes and going to parties. I imagine geisha having to work hard, learning their different skills, practicing, always busy and always having to please other people before themselves... I'm not saying geisha have unhappy life either, just that I'm sure it's not all a bed of roses.

I agree with Nice Gaijin that probably there are fewer 'real' geisha now, because of the rise of hostesses. If a guy is after only sex, it's much easier to go to hostess club than have all the time, trouble and money to keep company of genuine geisha.

[Kara_Nari]

From what I've seen it isnt even that cheap to go to a hostess club/bar.
I have a friend who works in one in Fukuoka, so im guessing that it would be a lot more expensive say in Tokyo, or other larger cities.
For a patron to go to her place of employment, the men pay upwards of 7,000yen for a mere 30 minutes of chatting/drinking. Thats not including tips, drinks, or snacks. Also a lot of these girls will be taken out for dinner by their patrons during the week. These girls are still not prostitutes, they dont have to sleep with their customers if they dont wish to, nor do the men expect them to.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

That's a pretty basic understanding of language learning you have demonstrated there. Ever considered the pragmatics in language use? It's not just what the kanji mean in a dictionary, but how they are used and what the social-linguistic-pragmatic connotations are. These are more important than a dictionary definition. How do you explain 信号 then? It means traffic lights, but the individual characters stand for 'belief' and 'issue/number'. Another example is 師走, which means December, though the individual kanji stand for 'master' and 'run'.

Perhaps you should talk to a hostess from Ginza and see how often she has been asked to become an aijin for money and presents　(I'm referring of course to the way 愛人 might be used in practice, not how a dictionary explains it).

As for the meaning of geisha, the word Geisha literally translates to "arts person" or "one trained in arts" (gei = art, sha = person). It is also sometimes described as "women of arts, which is exactly what a Geisha is - a woman trained in the traditional arts of Japan such as dance, music, singing to name a few.
I don't where you stemmed the belief that to become a geisha means to lose your dignity, if it was such a degrading job that it would be unlikely that the art of being a geisha would be considered somwhat of a traditional national treasure. To be a play thing of men is one observation, but i think it is the geisha who somtimes take advantage of the men themselves- why talk to a guy when you can charge him money for your company?
Edit: oh and for the record, Whist their appearances are very similar, the main difference between Geiko and Geisha is largely their location, and also certain customs and traditions.
The word "Geiko" derives from the Kyoto dialect of the word and is generally used to refer to those from the Kyoto hanamachi.
The word "Geisha", which is the more well known version of the word, is actually the Tokyo dialect for "Geiko". It was primarily used by geisha of Tokyo and surrounding areas, but it is now used as the general term to talk about all geisha. It is also the word most recognized by foreigners than what "Geiko" is.
Unfortunately there is very little literature about modern day Tokyo geisha and hangyoku and their customs and traditions. There is also very little literature about other geisha that reside around the rest of Japan.

[Patchy]

I saw a program on tv once about geishas (and had it on my DVR until Someone deleted it >_>) and I think the only part I wouldn't like would be the fact that most
geikos my age, which I believe would at that point be called maikos (correct me if I'm wrong, going off of memory you see), have extremely hectic hours. They go to classes during the day to learn all of their skills and at night go out to get experience to become geikos. Going out until 3 in the morning and then waking up at 6 sounds crazy to me O___o Not to mention they only get 2 days off of the month.

[nice gaijin]

That's a pretty basic understanding of language learning you have demonstrated there. Ever considered the pragmatics in language use? It's not just what the kanji mean in a dictionary, but how they are used and what the social-linguistic-pragmatic connotations are. These are more important than a dictionary definition. How do you explain 信号 then? It means traffic lights, but the individual characters stand for 'belief' and 'issue/number'. Another example is 師走, which means December, though the individual kanji stand for 'master' and 'run'.

Perhaps you should talk to a hostess from Ginza and see how often she has been asked to become an aijin for money and presents　(I'm referring of course to the way 愛人 might be used in practice, not how a dictionary explains it).
That's a pretty rude way to disagree with someone there. I wasn't taking the dictionary definition of the word, but thanks for pointing out that some kanji compounds' meaning doesn't equal the sum of its parts, even though it has nothing to do with what I said.

You seem to have the impression that geisha is the equivalent of a high-class whore; I said this is not the case. You also seem to think that they had a madame pressuring them to sleep with their clients to keep them coming back; I'd like to know where you got this idea as well...

Hostesses are not geisha, and don't deserve to be compared to them. The reason I brought them up was as a possible factor to the decline of geisha as more businessmen would rather take their associates to spend a night drinking and talking to a beautiful exotic foreign woman than taking them to be entertained by a traditional geisha. I'm sure many hostesses are asked by their patrons to become their mistresses or girlfriends as the case may be (I've seen several documentaries that talked about such situations), but that is not their job either, even though they are probably much more likely to be seduced by expensive gifts and the affluence of their clientele.