Jap or Jpn? [Archive]

Tachi

Apr 12, 2002, 14:31

First, to state the obvious, I find "JAP" offensive. I am a Caucasian American who lived in Japan for an entirely too short a period. The role I played in Japan required that I communicate with many people - Japanese people; customers, vendors, suppliers, employees, and friends. So, I was very conscious of how I spoke, how I communicated with others. "JAP" was a phrase I would not use, anymore than I would use the term "nigger". The probability that it would be offensive is too great, in my opinion, to even consider it part of my language. It is probably because we heard that term in a derogatory way when referring to the events of WWII.

"JPN" is the only acceptable abreviation.

Regards,
Todd

thomas

Apr 12, 2002, 17:16

Hi Todd, and welcome to our board. :)

Of course, I am aware that "Jap" is considered offensive, so the thread title (which referred to Gil's column) has to be viewed as merely rhetorical.

Now aside from political correctness, I think that we have to consider each term or denomination offensive that the target group itself (in this case Japanese) deems offensive. That applies to "jap", "yankee", "kraut" or whatever. And - to add another aspect - could also apply to the term "gaijin" which is used in Japan so "innocently".

Tachi

Apr 13, 2002, 01:12

I often wondered, and asked, about the term 'gaijin' while living in Japan. I have several very close friends there - Japanese - who consistently insisted that the term 'gaijin' held no offensive connotation whatsoever, other than the its literal meaning of outsider. As you know, Japan is/was a very homogenious country, and although that has changed dramatically in the past 50 years, there is still much about Japan that an 'outsider' has difficulty bridging. I was one of the fortunate ones, I think, in many ways, and was able to cross a few of those bridges during my all-too-brief stay in Japan. Perhaps, I was able to cross a few of those bridges because I was genuinely interested. Hard to define. The Japanese culture never included a great deal of 'openness'.

Regards,
Todd

thomas

Apr 13, 2002, 07:20

I assume it all depends on the context in which terms such as "gaijin" are used. I am sure that most Japanese have no discriminatory intentions when referring to foreigners as gaijin. I am always amused to see Japanese tourists using this term for non-Japanese even while being abroad themselves.

As you mentioned, it is most important to be willing to bridge cultures. Mutual understanding, however, requires bridges to be crossed from both sides.

halloalex

Apr 15, 2002, 10:03

Sorry, Thomas, but I dont agree with you in this point. In my humble opinion the term gaijin has a racial connotation. According to the still existing tale, Japan was created by gods himself. I agree, such legends exists in almost every society. But it implies, that Japan is not only a holy place on earth, but also that Japanese are something unique and therefore better than others. Please dont misunderstand me: I dont want to offend anyone and never would offend Japanese, because I like them pretty much, and personally dont have a problem with the term gaijin. I just like to express that I dont agree with your interpretation. In my humble opinion has the term gaijin a racial connotation - but it doesnt disturb me and hope Japanese dont feel disturbed, that in my mother tongue some words have such a connotation too...because it just comes from old, old times, right?

Yours,
alex

Tachi

Apr 15, 2002, 14:01

h.mmm... obviously, I am not the only one who has thought about this term. While I know that it literally means 'outsider', it is usually translated, even by Japanese, as 'foreigner'. That's a term you will also see readily used in our own INS documents, and in other pieces of literature. It is not derogatory, unless you want it to be. That is, we are currently in the midst of a battle of wits with the pros and cons of 'illegal aliens', particularly those coming across the Mexican border. So, in this context, 'foreigner' is often said with derision. But is otherwise, just a generic term.

I lived in Japan long enough to work with a lot of different people in all walks of the social strata. I conversed, negotiated, supported, played, and caroused with many. Not once did I ever detect a derogatory sense of the word when used to refer to me, or others -- and I heard it many times!

I don't think it is intended to be derogatory, unless the user specifically wants it to be.

Regards,
Tachi

moyashi

Apr 15, 2002, 20:50

LOL .... the bar flies will use the term gaijin deragotorily when the gaijin boys are trying to pick up on japanese girls.

I use the term myself as much as a African-American will use the word "nigger" amongst themselves.

But, I have to admit that this is more of a media disfunction than a prejudice. Japanese folks aren't used to a fully heterogenous community yet. ie .... news, whenever a gaijin is mentioned the term gaijin is used instead of the nationality. Not until the media changes will this gaijin usage.

I just don't like being referred to as a gaijin while I'm home in the states!

BUT! Japan is not the only country that uses such terminology. The Germans have the word "Auslander" which means outside-land-person.

Give the Japanese some more time and cable TV .... things will straighten itself out.

Koji

Apr 16, 2002, 08:54

I think Japanese people should be called nothing but Japanese . Jap is a name used for japanese in world war 2 , just like how the Germans where called Gerries . No one calls Germans that anymore so why do it to the Japanese . Jap is considerd very rude and we have made peace with Japan . So there is no reason to treat them or give the names we did 60 years ago when the Japanese where taken away from their homes and locked up !!!

moyashi

Apr 16, 2002, 21:35

true true.

The Germans were also referred to as Krauts.

hmmmm but I thought JAP also referred to Jewish American Princess?
ewww I've always hate such letter combinations.

Live it to the human to find a way to ridicule it's own species :(

halloalex

Apr 17, 2002, 09:57

Hi Tachi, hi Moyashi, hi Koji!

If I am wrong, please correct me: But I have the impression that our opinions on this topic are not very far away. Because I guess, everybody of us would support that people use "Japanese" instead of the shortened term "Japs", right?

But I doubt, if we all have the opinion that the term "Jap", which is just a relict from old times, will die out anytime.

Tachi wrote:

"Give the Japanese some more time and cable TV .... things will straighten itself out."

Please excuse me, but I definitely disagree with this prediction - not only because Japan has already the largest media environment in the world. In my humble opinion, the modern media - especially the Japanese - doesnt support such an "Enlightenment". In fact, the opposite is true. Because, as many, many analysis of the media development since the Second World War show, media are less describing things detailled. Instead their reporting becomes more and more superficial, what has the advantage, that everybody can understand what they like to inform you about, but also the disadvantage, that less people can form their own, explicit opinion. Just think about, how media currently report about world affairs that almost every country affects... well, they report more and more: but black and white, right?

I agree, this raises questions that might bring us to other topics, for example the role of the so-called "globalization". But, anyway, in my humble opinion, you are wrong:

Give the Japanese some more time and cable TV .... things will NOT eradicate cultural preconceptions, in fact, the opposite is the true! Right?

alex

moyashi

Apr 17, 2002, 11:22

ahhh true that Japanese won't just simply change due to TV and Cable but you must remember even with a sever beating the Japanese won't just change overnight.

A 76 teacher that I work with mentioned that what ever Lafcadio Hearn mentioned what some 100+ years ago still apply today.

Japanese have this inate ability not to change. Many feel that if it "ain't broken, it shouldn't be fixed".

I can think of the some major changes in Japanese history:
Tokygawa Period -- Japan under one rule with social classes being set.
Meiji Period -- the introduction of the true sense of the word "I"
Post WW2 -- Emperor declares he's human, panty hose, chocolate, and GI's are rampant in the cities.
80's -- Japanese venture oversease en-mass.

I mentioned Cable TV because it's a way to help the Japanese to change their perceptions of the world. My idea has lot's of flaws and protrays a "Hollywood" type of image, but I was hoping that even with such a problematic media as TV the Japanese would slowing see the world from a much larger angle.

hmmm I wonder if there are other solutions too?

deborah gormley

Apr 21, 2002, 04:55

surely this is a problem faced by most if not all japanese people, I have on occasion heard quite nasty tags being given to the japanese people, some I would never dream of repeating, how ever the people speaking these words have to be ignorant to the real japan and are afraid to admit that they know nothing of the culture, coming from Nr.Ireland I to have the problem of nasty tags and world wide impressions that are harsh and untrue.

moyashi

Apr 21, 2002, 18:03

ahhh the human condition itself is more likely the problem.

Why do people have to target folks outside of their own group?

Tachi

Apr 22, 2002, 09:17

It's a lot easier to target the outsider through ignorance, than to take the time to learn something new. But, we all know that anyway!

Tachi

akemi

Apr 22, 2002, 15:58

I understand the feelings expressed by other people on this subject, but feel that we should not be too quick to take offense to the term 'Jap'.

I leave to Americans and people more familiar with American culture whether it is a racist term there. However, in the UK, where I have lived and worked for over five years, the term is often used in a friendly familiar way. The offensive word, especially among older people, is 'Nip'.

larry_s

Apr 22, 2002, 22:58

Akemi, since you are Japanese what's your opinion on the word "gaijin"? Do you think is it offensive or not?

akemi

Apr 23, 2002, 03:58

Larry,

I would use the word 'gaikokujin' rather than 'gaijin' in conversation. The difference is that the former means person from a foreign land and the latter means outside person or stranger.

Some use of the word 'gaijin' *CAN* be offensive, but I doubt that most Japanese people think of it as such. My husband, who is English and lived in Japan from 1990 to 1996 does not find the term offensive.

akemi

Apr 23, 2002, 04:03

When my daughter went on a school trip to France it was interesting that the local French children were quite happy to be called 'Froggies' and to call the visitors 'Les ros bif' (spelling?). It was all meant in fun and fitted in with the spirit and humour of the situation.

akemi

Apr 23, 2002, 04:11

My husband has several Australian friends who always refer to him as a 'Pommie' and to their mutual American friends as 'Seppos'. I am told that Pom or Pommie means "Prisoner of the Motherland" and Seppo comes from Sceptic Tank, which in turn comes from Yank. As far as I know, it is all meant in fun and should not be taken as an insult.

Tachi

Apr 23, 2002, 04:53

I understood that the term 'gaikokujin' was merely the formal, correct pronunciation of the kanji, whereas, 'gaijin' was merely the shorthand form. Similarly, 'watakushi' in formal occasions, or in the presence of your superiors, vs 'watashi'; but, again, the kanji is identical.

Now, in formal, traditional language, women in Japan are much more likely to use the 'watakushi' and 'gaikokujin' terms, than men. Otherwise, I have always understood the meaning to be the same.

My wife and I still use a lot of Japanese in our home, here in Arizona, and we often use the word 'gaijin' to refer to foreigners (meaning non-Americans) here, as well. It has no derogatory connotation in our usage, and we never felt that while in Japan.
So, I think it is interesting to note that this threaded discussion has, so far, operated under the assumption that 'gaijin' was referring to a non-Japanese person. Not necessarily true! (GRIN)

Regards,
Tachi

Tachi

Apr 23, 2002, 05:37

Hmmmm.... I just realized I made a mistake. 外国人, obviously, is not the same kanji as 外人｡ However, I know that I have seen them used interchangeably, with 外人 being more common. I really have never heard them used in a manner that would suggest their meanings are different.

I read that note about the use of the word 'Nip', however. I had completely forgotten that word. I think of that word only in the context of its use during WWII. Definitely derogatory. But I also tend to think of the term 'Jap' in the same context. Again, would never use it. I remember a couple of times when I wanted to abbreviate a filename on the computer, and almost used 'jap', before self-consciously, changing it to 'jpn'. Obviously, I am not comfortable with the 'jap' term, either.

Regards,

Tachi

akemi

Apr 23, 2002, 05:41

Tachi,

As I am sure you know, the reading of kanji can be very different, even with people's names. However, the choice of reading is important when it comes to the formality and appropriate usage of a word or phrase in a given setting. The selection of appropriate words and phrases is all part of keigo, which is often very difficult to learn.

akemi

Apr 23, 2002, 05:53

The choice of words or phrases required for keigo in Japan in not unique to us. I have observed similar variations in diction and register with British people.

A good friend of my husband's used to own a number of country inns in Sussex. While enjoying a pub lunch with our friends I was often able to watch the way that the barmen and customers interacted. There was a lot of variation based on familiarity, social class, and company (ie with or without wives/girlfriends).

I have noticed the same thing among my colleagues at Ardingly College and SOAS. It is a complex code of unwritten rules that can be confusing for people not brought up with it.

TomAsInfinity

Apr 23, 2002, 08:53

The trouble is a lot of this stuff is taboo so its connotations are left unchallenged. I guess you could address any terms that you may find offensive, as you come across them spoken by people, but other than that, you should stand firmly to what you believe is derogatory or not. It's all subjective, either through misinformation most of the time...

e.g. The term "gaijin" is a weird one for me. I don't really find it derogatory, but the abbreviation "Jap" definitely is for me. However, a lot of places here in the UK (London, anyway) use this abbreviation (without the fullstop/period to indicate it's an abbreviation). In shops you'll see stickers on items like "Rare Jap Import," etc. but it's certainly practised due to misinformation rather than intent to be derogatory

Same thing goes for the term "oriental." Here in the UK, a lot of people use it to refer to a SE Asian individual. However, I believe it's offensive in the USA. All these weird rules... i try not to get too much in a bother about them, unless the person uttering them is doing it spitefully or with intent to be rascist.

Tachi

Apr 23, 2002, 15:10

akemi

Apr 23, 2002, 17:57

I have noticed that there is a trend among American's to refer to people as 'Asian', rather than 'Oriental'. I am comfortable with both terms, but find the former too general.

In normal British usage I think that 'Asian' denotes people from India, Pakistan and the surrounding area. It would not usually be applied to someone from Turkey or China, which are geographically part of Asia.

The term Oriental, which historically has been used to describe the 'exotic east' from Turkey right through to Japan. Has in modern British usage come to mean someone from China, Korea, Japan and the surrounding area.

I have good Indian friends who describe themselves as 'Asian', but me as 'Oriental'. Which is also how I am described on the EQUITY (British Actors' Equity Association) list.

TomAsInfinity

Apr 24, 2002, 08:25

Heya

I have read that some people do take offense at the word "Oriental" when it's used to describe a person in the USA. I often read "a rug is 'oriental,' a person is 'asian.'"

Everything akemi said is true over here in the UK though... the word 'Asian' is often too general. I usually get referred to as "Asian-Oriental" because the word "Asian" evokes Indian, Pakistan, Sri-Lankan, Bengali, etc... It's weird, now that I think about it, in literature (such as the newspapers) when an 'Oriental' person is described, they are usually referred to in terms of their origin (i.e. "the Japanese couple") but if someone from India/Pakistan/etc. is described, they are referred to as "the Asian couple. " Weird, but I slightly think it's because there are many more Asians from India and its surrounding countries here in the UK compared with SE-Asian and far-eastern Asians that the term "Asian" has become synonymous with "originating from India/Pakistan and its surrounding countries.

P.S. Off topic, but it's cool that you're in the EQUITY. I think I might have gone down that path if I didn't have such a passion for so many other things. Are you a "career actress?"

akemi

Apr 24, 2002, 10:59

Tom,

The EQUITY membership is for insurance reasons mostly. I classify myself as a teacher/lecturer, but I am often called on to present cultural events and perform aspects of traditional Japanese culture, such as the tea ceremony, calligraphy and so on. EQUITY provides five million pounds of public liability insurance, which covers me for any unforeseen accidents during any performance related activity. For lecturing without any cultural demonstration I am similarly covered for two million pounds by the Association of Teachers and Lecturers.

Moving quickly back on topic ;-) Quite recently I was featured in a British television programme (Collectors' Lot on Channel Four). In her introduction to the section on my kimonos, the female presenter said - "The British have always admired the style of the French and the Italians, but today we are going to show you that for real elegance you can't get much better than the Japs."

akemi

Apr 24, 2002, 11:16

Tachi

Apr 24, 2002, 11:20

Ouch! ".... you can't get much better than the Japs!" That hurts. You would think that people in the media, in the public would be more knowledgeable than that, or at least, would check with someone who knows before making such comments. I have the same feeling about newscasters, et al, who miss-pronounce people and place names, etc. If it were me, I would certainly ask first! I mean, if I were invited to see the Queen, I would most certainly inquire about the proper etiguette, etc. before making a fool of myself. Wouldn't you think?

larry_s

Apr 24, 2002, 20:58

Proper etiquette probably just doesn't sell, think of British tabloids. People get what they deserve (or what they can intellectually cope with).

TomAsInfinity

Apr 28, 2002, 01:53

True... you cannot educate the whole world, but you can educate yourself. For some, ignorance will always be bliss.

kyujuni

Apr 30, 2002, 03:06

Hello, I just signed up for these boards this morning, I'm from Canada and have had an interest in Japan for years now (and I just returned from my first trip into Asia... Thailand though (It was a school trip)... anyways, from the research I've done, Gaijin originally ment something similar to "Barbarian", (If you look at the full title of Shogun, you'll notice that it contains the words gaijin (or gaikokujin), and that the title means "General who conquers the Barbarians" or something similar to that)... regardless, as someone has said before about themselves, I have adopted the term for referance to myself, I feel more at home in Asia then I do in my native Canada.

Hope I haven't left anything else, and I hope this is understandable...

donathanrm

May 9, 2002, 15:51

I am japanese american/amerasian/whatever the appropiate 'title' is. My mother is Japanese and my father is American. We moved to the United States when I was a couple months old and ALL my life I have been called Jap, Nip, Chink, Slant eyed, Gook, etc. Even though I am very pretty some people hate because of the color of your skin or what nationality you are. So, yes, I take offence when someone calls me a Jap. Funny thing is, people cannot even insult me right because I'll get called racist names that don't even pertain to my nationality! But I still get insulted because that meens that they think asians are all the same.:angryfire

moyashi

May 9, 2002, 16:43

hehe all foreignors look the same in Japan.

I feel sorry for the Europeans because they get assaulted by the English conversation talkative folks.

Interesting though I've been approached by other foreignors in Japanese due this effect.

I highly recommend any person from a majority to move to an area to try out the minority side once.

I grew up with American Indians .... uni. was the big shock for me. Many of the other students were just like me ... blond hair and blue eyes.

@oriental
In California, oriental had the conotation of being exotic thus the nono on the usage.
In New York, jap also referred to Jewish American Princess (hmmm didn't I post this somewhere here too? -- oh well)
I never did like such words.

larry_s

May 9, 2002, 21:53

It seems that some Japanese do not have scruples (?) to use the term "jap". Check http://www.jap.com. ;)

donathanrm

May 10, 2002, 12:43

I also get offended when called oriental because my mother always preached "oriental meens an asian thing, etc. not to be reffered to as an asian person"
shelly

deborah gormley

May 25, 2002, 10:31

yes checked out jap.com and I would even find that offensive, :mad:

I agree with the sugestion that we should try out the minority side at least once in our life, just to see how many different names can be attached,I had the distasteful pleasure of doing this once and the name calling and the way I was referred to was not nice, it made my whole family very protective of our identidy and our friends from the simular position, to this day at times I have atendency to protect who I am and react quickly to the slightest hint of a distasteful remark, which in most cases I'm so wrong and be left with red face,:bow:

Tachi

May 25, 2002, 13:28

After reading all of these comments from everyone, it would seem that no matter what we do, it is easy to offend some people, even when not intended. I do think some people over react, or are too quick on the defensive. I know that I tend to be OVERLY careful of what I say, and still worry about whether or not I might have offended someone unintentionally. Most of my adult life I have mingled with many different cultrues, races, people. I have always considered myself fortunate in that regard, but it can also make one a bit too sensitive, too, perhaps. Hard to say.

Here in Tucson, we recently had an incident that I thought was an example of over reaction. The City of Tucson was hyping a campaign for some Summer activities, and the logo they came up with was a cartoon characterization of a city bus in a siesta position with a large, Mexican sombrero (hat), taking a nap against a wall. A group of people (not Mexicans, mind you) raised hell about stereotyping the Mexicans, implying they are lazy, etc. The City pulled the logo. Interviews with several prominent Mexicans in the area demonstrated that, as usual, no one was offended.

Similarly, the sexist campaigns of recent years to eradicate the male/female designations in just about every walk of life. Mailman must be Mailperson, for example. All of the school books had to be re-written to get rid of sexist material. Give me a break!

Regads,
Tachi

moyashi

May 26, 2002, 01:18

ughhh oh true!

hehe ... I've put my foot in my mouth more than once. I wonder if I'll ever learn.

@sexist material
Japan side.
All nurses (male/female) are now called KANGOSHI previously they referred only to the female KANGOFU.

States side.
Problem is that grammar use he as the defualt.
he <> she ....
male<> female
man <> woman ....

I'm really peeved that manhole cover was never changed. Figures!

tosh

May 26, 2002, 07:37

What would you call it..."Underground service hatch" or, "Underground access hatch"? ...Speaking of such, i'm just about ready for the booby hatch.

Tachi

May 26, 2002, 12:57

How about "personhole" cover. That makes as much nonsense as "mailperson". Personally, I think we should change the words, if for no other reason then in hopes that others will begin to realize how stupid this all is.
Sometimes you have to go to the ludicrous to get some of these so-called intellectuals to realize what they have wrought.

deborah gormley

Jun 3, 2002, 08:33

here here!

we cant check every word that comes out of our mouth for fear of implying something, that might offend or insult some one, but we can speak with care and compassion and only hope that it will be taken with the best intent, :bow:

moyashi

Jun 3, 2002, 20:54

If such things could only happen, at least we have started here and now.

jus_defy

Jun 18, 2002, 00:26

Kjeld

Jun 29, 2002, 21:31

I discovered about 18 years ago the bad taste 'Jap' leaves in the mouths of many Japanese. I would never use the word verbally, but used it in my personal memos the way I use Eng for English, Wed for Wednesday. Just the first three letters of the word, no insult intended, and only in memos to myself.

One day oe of my secretaries happened to see such a memo and was extremely upset to discover the letters 'Jap', which she interpreted as a word instead of just the first three letters of Japan or Japanese. After that I changed to JPN.

I think a lot of it comes from the terrible hate campaign the United States waged during WWII. Very understandable of course, given the times and the circumstances, but still rather crude. I must admit being shocked each time I see a poser from that time with the horrible cartoons of ugly and mean looking characters that supposedly are Japanese.

There was a lot of discrimination against Asians in most places around the world way before WWII (just read the diaries of people visiting Japan in the late 19th century--incredibly condescending in most cases), but it reached its high point during the 40's.

The Japanese at the time were very well aware of it, and clearly just as bad themselves. But ever since, the word 'Jap' touches an extremely raw nerve here.

It seems to me that it is this heritage of that cruel war that makes this word rather different from words like 'mailman' and 'manhole'.

Kjeld
iKjeld.com (http://ikjeld.com)

enorwark

Jul 15, 2002, 21:44

Originally posted by moyashi
true true.

The Germans were also referred to as Krauts.

hmmmm but I thought JAP also referred to Jewish American Princess?
ewww I've always hate such letter combinations.

Live it to the human to find a way to ridicule it's own species :(

Although I am a caucasian, born and raised in the USA, I also disagree with people using the term JAP, even as an abbreviation. When I was young, my two best friends were Japanese, and I know using that term in any way would probably make them feel uncomfortable, to say the least. I am one person who thinks that all slang terms for other races should not be used, and the people who use them are normally ignorant....

And you were right Moyashi, JAP does mean Jewish American Princess sometimes in the US, but that probably isn't appropriate either! But is WASP, in your mind, an inappropriate term? (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) Most people use that term in a negative way as well!

enorwark

deborah gormley

Jul 16, 2002, 07:12

@ enorwark

I'v never seen or heard of the term (WASP) White anglo saxon prodestant, this confuses me!!! maybe its just a case of where I live? and Being "Catholic or Prodestant" is enough (WHITE ANGLO SAXON really is'nt part of the problem).
Ahhh!! off on another tangent!! SORRY!!
All abbreviations of a nation are unacceptable to that particular nation, we have plenty here lolol:bow:

thomas

Jul 16, 2002, 19:18

While we're at it: don't forget the DINKs, double income no kids. Probably that's just a synonym for yuppies. hehe.

moyashi

Jul 21, 2002, 11:07

I grew up in Western New York State and by the time I was 16 I had a pretty good collection of 3 letter anagrams.

It seems that most of these even have an order of creation. Whenever, a new group enters an area heavily the older group finds ways to belittle the newer group. ie, we have such terms as "hen pecking order."

It's too bad that the human condition is set so that we find it easy to prejudice ourselves against others. I wonder if the internet will help lessen this problem? On the net, we find ourselves communicating with various people of various ages of various races of various backgrounds. Now, if we could only just take this a step further.

Kjeld

Jul 21, 2002, 11:41

Evolution has given us the gift to notice differences for survival. Unfortunately it is also often used for less worthy uses. So I am grateful for this and similar forums, on and off-line, where we can all show tolerance and openness and learn in the process.

The deeper we dive into a different culture, the more we are tested. I find that encountering a very different culture teaches you about your own culture. It always amazes me how arbitrary everything is. Very often there is no good reason to do something in one way and not another. Yet, we all think that that particular way is the one and holy way to do things.

When we encounter differences, some of us learn, some don't. I hope I will always be able to learn, yet remain my ability to observe, notice and critically analyze the societies that surrround me.

;)

moyashi

Jul 22, 2002, 16:46

here, here!

I hope that I too can do the same.

thomas

Jul 22, 2002, 19:47

I bear the same hope.

deborah gormley

Jul 22, 2002, 23:44

sigh!! spoken like three wise men:bow:

If only we could all(entire world population) adhere to your life styles and beleifs, then this world could become one population and not a series of statistics of each divided country, either by water or borders, and all people could be accepted as they are and not as they are preceived.:bow:

thomas

Jul 23, 2002, 02:59

Even "wise" men are far from being perfect, Debs. Something else: "Jewish American Princess" (JAP), what's the exact meaning of that term?

moyashi

Jul 23, 2002, 09:04

lol, my wife thinks I'm the stupidest of all her ex-boyfriends.

hmmm... Jewish American Princess. Jewish people = Rich and Princess = their daughters. So you have young Jewish girls running around who think and behave like that they are Princesses. That's part of it. I'm pretty sure that there is a bit more to this though. Sorry I didn't grow up in the NYC area.

geomc

Sep 25, 2002, 12:49

gaijin

I lived in Thailand for 9 years and the term there was Farang. Similarly it was not considered derogatory by the Thai people but we Farangs actually used it in a derogatory manner among our selves. We would see a "new comer" do something culturally embarassing and we would all say or think, "What a stupid Farang" Farang means outsider or foriegner, but basically only applies to westerners.

Geo

thomas

Sep 25, 2002, 23:59

I think the Chinese have the term "gweilo" for the same thing.

In Egypt, where I've lived for a couple of years, foreigners are called "khawaga", originally a Persian term for "lord". It's only applied to white foreigners. A khawaga is respected, but on the other hand ridiculised, as he/she usually doesn't know how to behave properly, but they are always forgiven. It doesn't carry a negative meaning as "gaijin" though.

moyashi

Sep 26, 2002, 02:00

Auslander?

hehe, Germans and Japanese are part of the same family maybe?

thomas

Sep 26, 2002, 03:02

Ausländer... hmmm, certainly doesn't mean "outsider" in the sense of "we" and "them", it just refers to someone from another country. On the other hand..... guess I have to think about it.

/me scratches his head

moyashi

Sep 26, 2002, 13:32

hehe, an old baba at a supermarket said under here breadth "auslander" while my father and I were talking in English. My father turned around and nailed her for it since he is German not American ;)

thomas

Sep 27, 2002, 01:44

Always depends on the context. "Ausländer" per se has no negative connotation. Hm, nowadays urban Europe is so "multi-cultural", I doubt that anyone would point a finger on foreigners.

Thomas Quinton

Jul 4, 2003, 16:08

It's unfortunate but some words of hate still remain and will always. A while ago a person was running for a small political office, and he was a WW2 vet, and used that term. When questioned about it, he referred The word "Jap" to the soldiers who bhrutalized POW's and did other things as well. He said he wasn't talking about japanese people themselves. I remember reading about it but didn't quite follow the aftermath of it.

Grachan

Jul 4, 2003, 16:23

I know that my wife and her mother - both Japanese - find the term 'Jap' offensive. Their reason is that it is a wartime term, and they both feel that its use by western people means that they still think of them in the same way as they were seen then - as warlike people. There is certainly still a lot of sensitivity from the people I know in Japan about how the country became during that time.

My own mother used to use the term Jap all the time and it drove my wife mad! In the end I had to tell my mum to stop saying it and she told me I was being stupid as it wasn't offensive, but then I told her it was my wife who was being offended she hasn't said it since!

Mae

Jul 6, 2003, 15:57

I'm new here, so i don't know what will offend u. What in my mind is that, why can't i use jap refering japanese, i used that becoz i found that the japanese word is too long and jap is just a short form of japanese, it doesn't contain any sign of offence. And pleazz, forget those cruel and brutal memories u have, clear off ur old visions and there'll be a whole new world. -_-

jspecdan

Aug 14, 2003, 02:35

I've never found "Jap" to be anything but offensive. "I just got the Jap version of the game." or "Jap cars are awesome." Even if the word is used positively, it still doesn't work. Stick to Japanese, Japan. It's definitely not the same as sayin "nigga" and "nigger".

of course there's always JAP - Jewish American Princess as you guys mentioned.

den4

Aug 15, 2003, 02:34

of course, one of the things people overlook these days in this overly politically correct wannabe world is that far too many people are far too sensitive about the little things and get far too easily offended by the same...

one of the things that has been lost in the PC world is common sense...if you believe something is offensive, then don't do it; alternatively, if you do something offensive on purpose, expect the counterattack as a result and don't be surprised by this. If you are being offensive through ignorance, then best learn what else is offensive and correct this behavior if you wish to remain on the good side of people, and if you're one of the jerks that want to flame others, then also expect the results you receive afterwards...all pretty simple stuff.

I used to find being called such names as offensive, but of late, I really don't care, since, although I don't condone it, people will be people. Having said that, those people that insist upon purposely offending others do not receive help from me, and in the long run, like karma, what goes around comes around...

that's my take on such things...

it's the way of things.....just like Merlin says in "Excalibur"...."for it is the doom of men that they shall forget...." and repeat their mistakes over and over again into the next millenium...and this goes for women, too, who are not immune to doing foolish things

Jap is offensive and anybody telling you otherwise is living in denial.... :D

Dream Time

Aug 15, 2003, 02:50

Originally posted by thomas
I think the Chinese have the term "gweilo" for the same thing.

In Egypt, where I've lived for a couple of years, foreigners are called "khawaga", originally a Persian term for "lord". It's only applied to white foreigners. A khawaga is respected, but on the other hand ridiculised, as he/she usually doesn't know how to behave properly, but they are always forgiven. It doesn't carry a negative meaning as "gaijin" though.

yes, "gweilo" is a Cantonese term
it means 'ghost human'
it origin from when the Cantonese Chinese people first seen the Westerners,they thought their looks and languages do not look like a 'normal' human,instead they think the Westerners are like ghost

Dream Time

Aug 15, 2003, 03:10

calling Japanese a Jap
is like calling a Chinese 'Ching','Chink', or 'China man',
calling Korean a 'gook',
it is very offensive

in Chinese,people used to (especially during WW2) call the Japanese 'carrot head'
and now the Cantonese Chinese call the Japanese 'ga jai' ('ga boy', the word 'ga' is referring to the Japanese language because they always have the sound 'ga' at the end)

in Japanese,Japanese people call foreigners 'gaijin'
but when referring to 'Chinese people',they have another term to specify that,I forgot,it is something like chikku something,
and they call us something like 'zhina',this word originally was ok, but during WW2 the meaning of this word became close to 'pig',that is why some Chinese people get very angry when they hear Japanese call them this

Matsuyuu

Aug 15, 2003, 08:22

I think there's a difference between being racist and politcal correctness. Think about it, does it really matter what people call your race? I'm white. I'm a cracker, redneck, wigger, what ever you wanna call me. Nobody cares when you call a white person something politically incorrect, but if you say "black" instead of "of african descent" people can get offended or say that the use of "black" is questionable.
Another reason people may use the word "Jap" is because 1.) it's easier to spell and say than Japanese, 2.) There was a whole generation around the 1940's that were told to believe that the Japanese were evil because of a world war. There is, as we all know, the person that is ignorant of another group's feelings and uses a derogatory word for the purpose of demoralizing them.
Still, I say that most Native english-speakers who use the word Jap are in the right. Personally, I wouldn't care if someone called me "Amer" or some variant thereof.
So if you don't make fun of other races, good for you (seriously, tolerance is one thing, but love of your neighbor is even better), but don't get so easily offended by some hardly-offensive word used by people you don't know.

den4

Aug 15, 2003, 10:40

yes, there is a difference between PC and racism, but they are both offensive on opposite ends of the spectrum. Where a racist will call upon class/race distinction to claim superiority/inferiority upon others, a politically correct initiative will attempt to try to neutralize any distinction between groups to the point where nothing can be done without insulting somebody---and everything becomes drab and boring with neutered-language-modified-vocabulary that ends up really insulting the intelligence of all save those that have already been lobotomized and brainwashed with the PC agenda...

both are evil in my book...because both sides fail to attempt at a balance, claiming their side is the only side that is right, and that they are the only ones that know what's good for you...

tends to increase the incompetent into positions they don't deserve in the name of fairness, where in reality it should be based upon folks that are actually willing to work well with others and promote mutual progress....I guess I'm a bit pessimistic having seen so many incompetents at my previous work places with the folks telling me constantly about their politically correct agenda...so my rant....sorry.. :(

Japanese_American

Mar 31, 2008, 16:47

If I could post HTML, I can point out a lot of reasons why I am offended by the title Jap

I'm new here, so i don't know what will offend u. What in my mind is that, why can't i use jap refering japanese, i used that becoz i found that the japanese word is too long and jap is just a short form of japanese, it doesn't contain any sign of offence. And pleazz, forget those cruel and brutal memories u have, clear off ur old visions and there'll be a whole new world. -_-

Would you call a black person a Nigger? No? Then what makes you think that an American of Japanese ancestry would tolerate the word Jap? And if you really want to split hairs, Nigger can therefore be a reference to Niger. If you're Japanese or of Japanese ancestry, then fine, but don't expect a lot of respect from people who think that the word is distasteful.

Japanese_American

Mar 31, 2008, 17:07

I disagree. The term "Oriental" is not offensive in the USA, any more so than the term "Causasian", or "Indian". But I think that you were getting at something else: Basically, any term CAN be offensive, if we want it to be! The opposite, I think, is also true. In my case, for example, I was so totally fascinated by just about everything that was Japanese, or Japanese related, that no one ever took offense at my mistakes, etc.! (GRIN) I am still that way, actually. I cannot get enough of Japan, and probably never will. So, I may always be a "gaijin", but my heart will always be "日本人”.
Regards,
Tachi

Tachi, you're from Japan I assume. I detest the term Oriental because it categorizes my and our identity into that proverbial melting-pot. Also, in the 60s in the United States, the activist group Yellow Brotherhood stressed the importance of self-identity, especially when our beloved government tried to group my people into one sect. In other words, you are Oriental. No the TBH said, we are Asian. With the U.S. occupying Japan, would you be offended if they tried to group you into one identity? I'm sure you would. i don't know if you know this, but titles are used to oppress people. At one time Negro was a title used by our government as a form of identification. Then after the 60s, the Black Panthers changed the relatively harmless word of Negro to Black or African American. Same goes with the term Oriental to Asian. The term itself is not offensive or racist, but it lacks the self-identity many of the Asian Americans fought and struggled for...self-realization, self-identity, autonomy and self. Unlike Japan where you folks brought up to submit to authority: No guns, no dissent, we were brought up to question authority and by subjecting ourselves to this new idea, do you and everyone else outside of our spectrum know how free we truly are. I am a gun-totting liberal, and I choose my destiny. I have no allegiance to the emperor nor do I have an obligation to take care of my parents like my parents did when my grandparents were alive. Do I hate my parents? No. I love my parents, but being here in the States, allows us to be autonomous from the culture you and my parents followed, because, I am an American, of Japanese ancestry. I am an Asian American.

I have noticed that there is a trend among American's to refer to people as 'Asian', rather than 'Oriental'. I am comfortable with both terms, but find the former too general.
In normal British usage I think that 'Asian' denotes people from India, Pakistan and the surrounding area. It would not usually be applied to someone from Turkey or China, which are geographically part of Asia.
The term Oriental, which historically has been used to describe the 'exotic east' from Turkey right through to Japan. Has in modern British usage come to mean someone from China, Korea, Japan and the surrounding area.
I have good Indian friends who describe themselves as 'Asian', but me as 'Oriental'. Which is also how I am described on the EQUITY (British Actors' Equity Association) list.

You may be, but I'm not. read the comment I wrote to Tachi

Japanese_American

Mar 31, 2008, 17:14

Incidentally, there is a programme on British television called 'Banzai', which is a Japanese themed 'home betting show'. It features situations that people at home can bet on the outcome (either among their friends or via the interactive button on the TV). It is often slapstick and rude, but not really offensive.
I don't watch the programme, but my daughter told me that in a recent edition the presenter, himself Japanese, referred to the notion among foreign people that, "The Japanese are a nation of slanty-eyed, sandal-wearing goldfish lovers." Apparently he was quoting from a well-known film.
Would such a reference be allowed on American television?

Actually, yes. In the United States, the First Amendment to the Constitution would permit trash like this. But on the other hand, there would be boycotts and the consumer would try to determine the destiny of said show. If the consumer finds something offensive, the consume would boycott the sponsors and the show would most likely be tossed. Sounds unfair to the producers? That there is also a free speech issue.

Japanese_American

Mar 31, 2008, 17:19

Being Japanese-American that term does offend me as does all those other slang terms for other asian ethnicities...the Koreans, Vietnamese, Chinese etc. I do not believe the term "jap" will ever go away as long as every December 7th newspapers across the country relive the bombing of Pearl Harbor and flash those nasty headlines across the pages. Hopefully, it won't get used as much but it does bother me a lot when I see or hear the term.

First of all, since you are a Nikkei like me, Japanese-American is improper English. Why? When you hyphen two noun, you made yourself a compound adjective. meaning:

Hyphenated compound adjectives may have been formed originally by an adjective preceding a noun:

* "Round table" → "round-table discussion"
* "Blue sky" → "blue-sky law"
* "Red light" → "red-light district"
* "Four wheels" → "four-wheel drive"

Got it?

As for Pearl harbor?

www . soest . hawaii . edu/HURL/midget.html#images

The photos are of the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor one hour before the attack. In other words, there was no surprise attack, and your friends and relatives who were placed in concentration camps were victims of the New World Order.

Google: Hiroshima American POW

also: w w w.goforbroke.o r g Learn about your people