Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all) [Archive]

Mikawa Ossan

Oct 5, 2005, 21:00

Whenever I read your posts on this topic, Maciamo, I get the impression that most of your "problems" with the Japanese comes from your mindset that you bring to the situation. Please don't be offended and let me explain, and please understand that this is hard for me to explain.

Growing up, I remember numerous stories and movies, etc., about the immigrant experience in the USA. It seems that every immigrant group that arrived in America in significant numbers has encountered discrimination much worse than ANTHING I personally have encountered here in Japan. Usually the story seems to follow that the first generation meets a lot of difficulty, but subsequent generations do not. encounter so much. (I am speaking of people who came to America originally on their own free will.)

Why is that?

Second generation people tend to be much more assimilated into the culture at large than first generation immigrants. Second generation people have a better command of the language, a better command of cultural norms, and a much weaker sense of identity with the "mother country" than their parents. Therefore, they fit in better. (Yes, I realize that there is more to the story, but for the time being, just this much will suffice for the point I'm trying to make.)

When you as a foreigner/immigrant come to another country, you have several options. One of these options is to keep your preexisistant world view and try to make your new host country bend to your way of thinking. Another option is to do the opposite. That is, to throw out your old world view completely and adopt your host country's way of thinking without omission. Then there are numerous shades of grey in between.

Maciamo, you strike me as someone near that first extreme. It seems to me, from the little that I know of you through your posts, that you have adopted many superficial aspects of Japanese life, but you mistake that for much deeper aspects. It seems to me that you don't really try to understand the Japanese as they are, but you expect them to accept you without prejudice.

On the other hand, I can see that you make efforts. You talk to Japanese and try to explain your side of things. You continue to live here even though you often find things to be annoying. And I commend you for that.

I just want to know: have you honestly without prejudice ever tried to put yourself into the "Japanese`s" shoes and tried to understand exactly how and why they think as they do?

I don't mean to be overly critical. I have lived in Japan for a total of about 5 1/2 years, so I know it's not so long. But it's roughly comparable to your stay, I think. Hearing your stories, I always come to very different conclusions than you do. I've noticed that I have fewer such stories than you seem to. I wonder if our mindsets don't contribute to this?

For example, religion. I take a live and let live approach to the topic. You seem to have much stronger opinions than I do.

Another example is discrimination in Japan. It often crosses my mind that A won't sit next to me on the train because I'm a foreigner or B won't ask me for directions for the same reason, and sometimes that's exactly the case, but I try to assume that it's something else, and only after every other possibility has been exhausted will I actively think that it's real discrimination.

It just seems that our starting points are very different and that this causes different results. Which is better? I don't know. I seem to encounter less daily trouble than you, but then again, you're the one who's married, and I deeply envy you for that. :p

Sorry this is so long!

Maciamo

Oct 6, 2005, 00:16

Maciamo, you strike me as someone near that first extreme.

I think the problem is that there are differences between me and the average Japanese (let's say about 80-90%) that are irreconciliable, and these are not necessarily cultural. Among the cultural or educational issues is that I attach a lot of importance in knowledge, analysis and rationality, while typical Japanese do not. Another cultural problem is that the Japanese try to "read people's feelings" and say what they think would please a person from their point of view. I understand very well that it is why they would praise me about being able to use chopsticks or speak Japanese. What I am complaining about is justly that they cannot grasp that this may be insulting to logical people like me, who can only logically conclude that something as trivial as being able to use chopsticks is something worthy of praise after staying several years in Japan.

I think it may be as difficult for some forum members to understand my feelings on this, as it would be for a convinced Christian to understand why I think that the idea of the Christian god is preposterous. In each case, if the other party cannot think 100% logically, they won't understand my position.

You must be wondering : "Why does he know that the Japanese try to praise him and still get offended ?" If you wonder that, then your mind cannot think like mine (while I can, nevertheless, understand your position).

There is a second factor, which as you pointed out make me want to impose my views on others (note that I am not confronting my country's culture against the Japanese one, but my personal culture/mindset against any culture in the world).

It can be explained by Kohlberg's stages of moral development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development). Have a look at the link. I believe that Japanese society is blocked somewhere between level 1 and 4 (or a mixture of it), and due to cultural reasons (ultra-conformism, and group-mentality), cannot reach the Post-Conventional stage. I do not mean that Westerners do. Some do, other don't. Kohlberg acknowledges that few people ever reach stage 6 (or 7). It is not a matter of pride or achievement, but I believe that for some reasons linked to my personality and experience since birth, I have passed stages more quickly than ordinary people, and have reached stages 5 and 6 (depending on the circumstances).

In short, my philosophical principles (including logics, atheism...) and universal ethical principles (humanism...) are stronger than any cultural or social conventions or law, and I feel entitled to criticise anything that does not go in accordance with those principles. In other words, I am anti-conformist, extremely independant-minded, and mostly unselfish (i.e. care more about the good of the whole world/humanity than my own). That is why I feel it necessary to improve society as a whole, pinpoint at the political, economical or social problems in the country where I live (or others) so as to senibilise people about those issues and make them change, as I have explained in this thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15958).

Conclusion, I cannot accept ways of thinking which are not logical. rational or go against my principles, whatever the country. Japanese people being culturally disposed not to think logically, and not to understand the feelings of somebody who think the way I do, they end up saying things that I find unacceptable and insulting even when they want to be polite. I realise that I won't be able to change them all by myself. But if you also think that it is annoying to praised for things that everybody can do (if they want to), then join me in my quest to explain to the Japanese you meet what they shouldn't say to Westerners (http://www.jref.com/culture/what_japanese_should_not_say_to_foreigners.shtml). :-)

It just seems that our starting points are very different and that this causes different results.

In fact, when I first came to Japan, I didn't even suspect that the Japanese could discriminate against well-behaving Westerners interested in their country. The first tips came from the attitude of my grandmother-in-law (which I met on a daily basis at the beginning). Even after I managed to speak conversational Japanese, she would still make gestures rather than speak to me with words. I replied to her in Japanese, but she feigned not to understand. My wife had to repeat exactly what I said so that she would listen. Even after my wife explained many times that I was not speaking English, French or whatever, but very understandable Japanese, the grandma would still not listen and use gestures.

Had is been only for that, I could have dismissed it as a special case. But the longer I stayed in Japan, the more I gained confidence to address locals in Japanese (without my wife's presence), and the more I realised that this was a quite common attitude. I could go to the dry cleaning, several bento shops, ask something at the station, the immediate reaction of most people over 40 (and some younger too) was to "freeze" and make gestures assuming that I was not speaking Japanese. With younger people, they typically responded by this expression of surprise that "eventhough I was only a gaijin, I managed to learn their difficult language".

First I just took it as a compliment, but as time passed, I realised that most Japanese truly believe that their language is exceptionally difficult and almost impossible to learn for a foreigner. Some told me what I suspected the other were thinking : "Japanese brains work differently and so it's very difficult for foreigners to learn Japanese" or else "don't you think that Japanese is the most difficult language in the world ?".

Combine all these reactions, repeat them at least a dozen times (I have heard them more than that), and be confronted to an in-law and shop attedant who on a daily basis respond to you with gestures even when you are addressing them in fluent Japanese. How could your image of the people not change ? How could you not think that many Japanese truly think that their language is more difficult because their brain is different (=superior), and that foreigners are therefore stupid. Add to this the commonly held belief that gaijin are responsible for the rise in crimes in Japan (which I have demonstrated is not true; see my article Foreign criminality in Japan (http://www.jref.com/society/foreign_crime_in_japan.shtml)).

Naturally, not all Japanese think this way, but many do, and probably most older people do. People that actively seek the company of foreigners/Westerners most certainly don't. But that is not necessarily the people you meet at your local dry cleaner, your neighbours or your wife's friends. I have no complaints about most of the Japanese who have lived in the West and are interested in Western culture. These are the people that made me stay in Japan for so long.

Silverpoint

Oct 6, 2005, 13:38

GaijinPunch

Oct 6, 2005, 14:07

Try working in finance. I knew people in the 5 year + club (maybe even 10+) that couldn't string a sentence together... at all.

And I will say that Silverpoint has a point... errr... no pun intended. I can't say I'm innocent. I thought similar things after only living there a few years, too. I think you eventually either grow out of it, or just frustrate yourself into a heart attack. There's so many more positive things to be thinking. I mean... honestly, I think you can say similar things about 80-90% of the people around the world. I don't though. If you really don't like the way convesrations go with people, why not avoid conversing with them altogether?

Maciamo

Oct 6, 2005, 14:15

Maciamo... There is one part of your argument which appears flawed to me. You seem to describe this 'insulting' surprised reaction as something which is pretty unique to the Japanese.

I (yes ME) am often surprised when a foreigner I meet displays a solid command of Japanese. So, I discriminate too. And what's more I don't really care if you want to accuse me of discrimination. Against who? Foreigners? Like me?

Why am I surprised? Because for every one good Japanese speaker I meet, I come across fifty who struggle to even make basic conversation. And that includes people who have been here for several years.

Don't forget that I come from a country where most people need to be bilingual or trilingual (i.e. speak 2 or 3 languages at an advanced level) to get a job (and not just a good one, even supermarket cashier). Most of my friends in Continental Europe (+ Scandinavia) can speak 2 to 4 foreign languages at least conversationally (i.e. intermediate level, let's say about a 500 to 700 TOEIC score in English). Japanese being a relatively easy language to learn (few grammatical rules or irregularities, easy pronuciation), I would be surprised to meet somebody who has lived 4 years in Japan, lives with a native Japanese speaker, cannot at least speak conversational Japanese - especially if that person under 30.

I could understand that people who live in an closed expat community, and/or people who have first come to Japan when they were over 40 years old may not speak much Japanese after 4 years. If they do not speak it at all, however, it's pure laziness and unacceptable (they would have no respect for the local culture). But these people are the exception rather than the rule, and not the people younger Japanese would normally have met before to base their comparison. I don't have statistics, but I am under the impression (from my observations in the steet, and from the age of the average age of this forum's members (http://www.jref.com/advertising/traffic_statistics.shtml)) that the biggest part of Westerners that live in Japan are in their 20's or 30's.

Note that I am not surprised when Japanese people I meet assume that my friends or relatives that come and visit me in Japan (and have never lived there or aren't necessarily interested in Japan) do not speak Japanese. It's obvious. I also do not say that the Japanese should expect a foreigner to reach an advanced level after 3 or 4 years, but at least have a daily conversation level. Their surprise usually comes only after a few words that I have said. Knowing that after 4 years in the country and living with a Japanese, if they still assume that I can't make a sentence or understand what they say, I find it insulting.

One of my main complaints is that typical Japanese do not differentiate between (long-term) residents and short-term visitors. For them, a gaijin is a gaijin and it is as surprising that one of them speaks Japanese when they have just set foot in the country or have lived there for 5 or 10 years. It's only shocking to me that they should not make this distinction in their mind, not the fact that they are surprised in itself. I didn't mind at all in my first year, as I was still somewhat of a tourist.

Maciamo

Oct 6, 2005, 14:53

Try working in finance. I knew people in the 5 year + club (maybe even 10+) that couldn't string a sentence together... at all.

Typical closed expat communities; basically people who come to Japan for work but not for the country, culture or people. I'd say that such expats (along with embassy staff) are a special case, and anyway a minority of the foreigners in Japan.

I mean... honestly, I think you can say similar things about 80-90% of the people around the world.

Honestly no. I have lived in England, Germany, Italy, Spain and Australia. In none of these countries were people surprised that I could speak their language (even after a few months). They just expect it. There were a few Italians surprised that I managed to speak so well Italian after just 1 month in Italy and almost without learning the language before, but the most surprised in that case was myself ! (and now I feel like I'd need to go back there and practice a bit to keep my level for the next few years, as it's getting far in my memory).

If you really don't like the way convesrations go with people, why not avoid conversing with them altogether?

Because sometimes I meet some people that are not like that (less than 5% though) and are great people with whom to discuss about Japanese culture, politics or whatever.

GaijinPunch

Oct 6, 2005, 15:02

In none of these countries were people surprised that I could speak their language (even after a few months).

I meant that average people in those countries couldn't communicate on the level that you deem necessary... not the language thing. Sorry if I was unclear.

mad pierrot

Oct 6, 2005, 17:44

Why am I surprised? Because for every one good Japanese speaker I meet, I come across fifty who struggle to even make basic conversation. And that includes people who have been here for several years. You really need to remove the huge chip on your shoulder and take peoples surprise as a compliment (which I'm sure it is often meant to be).

Furthermore, you always seem to place yourself above other people in regard to your mental powers of perception and reasoning. Frequently you've stated that if someone disagrees with you it's because they're not able to come up to your level, they don't understand or they can't think in the way that you do. I know that this might be hard for you, but have you ever considered that the reason they disagree with your view, is simply because you're wrong?

Actually, I think you're missing the point. I agree with Maciamo on this. Prime example: I recently started working at a Senior High School. On my first day, the principal introduced me to all my fellow teachers. He mentioned I had lived in Wakayama for two years and studied at Kansai Gaidai University. The following period I had lunch in the caf with them. I was asked, as usual...

Wow! You can speak Japanese?
You use chopstick?
You can eat nattou?

:banghead:

These are the same teachers who tell all their students that Americans only drink coke and eat hamburgers. And don't tell me it's because they don't know otherwise, because I knew the last American they worked with, and she was a counter-culture vegetarian liberal. And I still get told all Americans do this, all Americans love that.......

wtf??????

Kinsao

Oct 6, 2005, 17:50

Wow Maciamo, what looong posts :mad: but interesting to read! :cool:

But somehow, your discussion doesn't seem like the logical Maciamo we all know and love :?

Among the cultural or educational issues is that I attach a lot of importance in knowledge, analysis and rationality, while typical Japanese do not.

Would you not find this to be much of a generalisation? I'm not saying that people shouldn't generalise of course, but all the same... well, I am not in a position to dispute your statement, in fact, so I will say no more! Umm... is it really the case that the Japanese in general are known for lacking in knowledge, analysis and rationality?

I understand very well that it is why they would praise me about being able to use chopsticks or speak Japanese. What I am complaining about is justly that they cannot grasp that this may be insulting to logical people like me

So... I am slightly confused... you are aware that when people praise you for (for example) being able to use chopsticks, they are trying to be nice rather than insulting, yet you still feel insulted because they can't grasp why you feel insulted? :mad: I realise this is only a personal view, but if someone is trying to be kind to me, even if their kindness is somehow "off the mark" I find it very difficult to be insulted, because I know that this is not their intention! If they have been inadvertently insulting while trying to be nice - like in your case with the chopsticks - I simply feel sorry for them, thinking maybe "They have no manners even if their heart is in the right place".

In each case, if the other party cannot think 100% logically, they won't understand my position.

I have no wish to argue about this, that's not my meaning in quoting you here! I just thought it was an interesting statement because it raises the question "What is 100% logical?" I think the person who can define it must be a great philosopher who takes many volumes to answer the question! :p

If you wonder that, then your mind cannot think like mine (while I can, nevertheless, understand your position).

Forgive me, but it does seem big-headed to imply that always you can understand the other person's position but they can never understand yours (presumably because you are the only person whose mind works 100% logically?!).

I believe that Japanese society is blocked somewhere between level 1 and 4 (or a mixture of it), and due to cultural reasons (ultra-conformism, and group-mentality), cannot reach the Post-Conventional stage.

Does your idea of "logic" comprise putting everything in boxes or giving them labels? :o

I am not saying that that approach would be faulty... I am merely wondering whether or not it would be. Because, although I try to think logically, I am well aware that because of the physical/biological/chemical constraints of my brain, I am only able to do so in a very limited sense. So it could be that your approach is totally correct... I don't know. Is this a functional approach and on what levels can it function? I can't help feeling that some things must "fall down the cracks" :worried:

Again, a huge generalisation about Japanese society.

I believe that for some reasons linked to my personality and experience since birth, I have passed stages more quickly than ordinary people, and have reached stages 5 and 6

It seems that you have a very high opinion of your own intelligence. Of course, I am sure that you do in fact have a high intelligence, but sometimes it's better to be careful how you word things :blush: it's like you're saying you're "above"the "ordinary" level. Which may well be true, but if I were you I'd keep quiet about it!

That is why I feel it necessary to improve society as a whole, pinpoint at the political, economical or social problems in the country where I live (or others) so as to senibilise people about those issues and make them change, as I have explained in this thread.

Well, that's an admirable aim, because it's good to enable society (as a whole - of whatever country) to take note of its bad points and change for the better. And to tackle political, economical, social problems... it's difficult... and largely because it involves whole societies, which are of course composed of individuals yet work in totally different ways from individuals... :mad: It seems like you set yourself an epic task, on a heroic scale! But I would be wary of talking about "making" people change. You can't "make" people change in their minds, although of course you can try to persuade them in various ways. Once you start trying to change people, it's egotistical...

I cannot accept ways of thinking which are not logical. rational or go against my principles, whatever the country.

I would be very wary of saying "cannot accept ways of thinking which" ... anything! That road leads to prejudice, not tolerance.

Japanese people being culturally disposed not to think logically, and not to understand the feelings of somebody who think the way I do

Really???

Don't forget that I come from a country where most people need to be bilingual or trilingual (i.e. speak 2 or 3 languages at an advanced level) to get a job (and not just a good one, even supermarket cashier).

That does make a difference to attitudes. In the UK, where I live, it's actually unusual to find someone who speaks fluently a language other than English! People actually are surprised that I speak French - even though a large proportion of the population were made to learn it at school anyway! :worried: On the other hand, they are absolutely not surprised for a foreigner to learn English, because it is expected. I mean, everyone knows English... don't they? :? :lol:

Japanese being a relatively easy language to learn (few grammatical rules or irregularities, easy pronuciation), I would be surprised to meet somebody who has lived 4 years in Japan, lives with a native Japanese speaker, cannot at least speak conversational Japanese - especially if that person under 30.

I agree about that; I have only been learning Japanese an extremely short while but I can't see yet that it's any more difficult than a European language. It's the kanji that I think will be very difficult, but of course I could still learn speaking to a reasonable conversational level without being good at kanji (even if I would be illiterate!). Anyway, that's another thread! ;)

Personally, I would just not waste my time and energy in being insulted and offended, and simply thank my lucky stars that I could speak good Japanese.

I wave goodbye with a quotation from Thomas Jefferson:

"To put an absolute faith in reason is to overlook one essential step in the rational process: the possibility that you may be mistaken."

:wave:

mad pierrot

Oct 6, 2005, 18:02

I do believe there is a logical reason for this. I've got quite abit to say on this topic, but I've got work now, so it'll have to wait until later tonight.

Until then.....

:sorry:

nurizeko

Oct 6, 2005, 18:38

The only problem is im probably the typical gaijin, when it comes to botching upo japanese, i only know words, not really full sentences, and despite the fact im fairly familiar with japan, ive always found languages to not be my strongest hand.

It would be nice that if you use japanese, then the japanese should use it to but, thats life. :p

Maciamo

Oct 6, 2005, 19:46

But somehow, your discussion doesn't seem like the logical Maciamo we all know and love :?

No, that's just because it's a bit abstract and if you haven't lived in Japan and have had similar experiences (like Mad Pierrot :p ), it may be difficult to understand. Then there is the problem that I am forced to generalise (i.e. talk about the "biggest part of the population", not everybody) and what's more only based on my experience.

I simply feel sorry for them, thinking maybe "They have no manners even if their heart is in the right place".

It's not a matter of manners. I hate superficiality such as hypocritical manners. If they want to be well-disposed toward me (or have me well disposed toward them), they should reflect a bit about what kind of person I am from the information they already have (e.g. married to a Japanese and have lived in Japan for 4 years) before making strange compliments. To understand my feelings, just imagine that you went to France and people started complienting you on your being able to use a fork and knife. That would be quite baffling, wouldn't it ? Now, what if at least half the people you met in France did the same. Wouldn't you feel like complaining that it's not strange or surprising that you can also use a fork and a knife as you are not mentally retarded ? I feel exactly this way in Japan.

Forgive me, but it does seem big-headed to imply that always you can understand the other person's position but they can never understand yours (presumably because you are the only person whose mind works 100% logically?!).
...
It seems that you have a very high opinion of your own intelligence. Of course, I am sure that you do in fact have a high intelligence, but sometimes it's better to be careful how you word things :blush: it's like you're saying you're "above"the "ordinary" level. Which may well be true, but if I were you I'd keep quiet about it!

I am sorry, for once I will have not to keep too quiet about it as you are pushing me. First of all, I'd like to say that a greater intelligence is not always a good thing, and certainly does not make (social) life easier. If you want to know, I have taken several IQ tests and have been constantly tested as having an IQ superior to 99.99% of the population, ranging between 135 and 165 depending on the test - but it was always about crystalised, non-verbal IQ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iq). These IQ thus didn't test verbal or linguistic skills, memory, artistic abilities, etc. It's almost only about reasoning, logics, spatial skills, etc. So we cannot say that I learnt languages faster because of having a higher IQ.

I think my verbal IQ was more average (around 120). In fact, I was quite bad at learning languages at school, and I have only really started to like foreign languages and started learning by myself from about 17 years old. This contradicts the theory that young children learn more easily languages, as for in my case I found it easier after puberty.

The drawback of a high IQ is that people have difficult to understand some of your reasonings (or even feelings, like here) and may find you strangely obsessed by things that doesn't matter much for them. My own mother has never been able to understand me (to this day), although my father understands me much more easily, often without explanations needed. This is clearly because of the difference of IQ between them. Same with my wife, I can explain some (particularly complex ?) things again and again and she never seems to understand my point of view, while I understand hers before she even opens her mouth. I know I understand her, because I can explain with my own words what she means, and she says that it is exactly what she means, said better than could have said (although we almost only talk in Japanese, so I have the language disadvantage). I can give you many such examples of me understanding a person whereas they do not understand me at all. I am used to it since I was a child (but didn't know it was IQ-related until I was 20).

Researches have shown that it becomes very difficult for 2 individuals to understand each others once their IQ diverged by more than 30 points. There is a theory that such people almost belong to different species. Incidentally, the most gifted gorillas can have an IQ of up to 70 (maybe even more), i.e. as high or higher than 3% of the human population (people considered as mildly or severely retarded). Of course, that's only for reasoning skills.

Anyhow, you were asking me whether "it does seem big-headed to imply that always you can understand the other person's position but they can never understand yours". What do you think ?

I would be very wary of saying "cannot accept ways of thinking which" ... anything! That road leads to prejudice, not tolerance.

And is it better to tolerate everything in life, even the clearly negative aspects ? I think modern Western societies are putting too much importance on tolerance. Should we, for instance, tolerate religious or political extremism ?

It's the kanji that I think will be very difficult, but of course I could still learn speaking to a reasonable conversational level without being good at kanji (even if I would be illiterate!).

I also thought that the kanji would be the hardest part at first, but it ended up being one of the easiest, as I really liked (and still like) learning them. In fact, without the kanji, it would have taken me longer to acquire my current (passive) vocabulary in Japanese, as kanji compounds help guessing the meaning of unknown words, and even creating new ones quite easily.

Maciamo

Oct 6, 2005, 19:54

The only problem is im probably the typical gaijin, when it comes to botching upo japanese, i only know words, not really full sentences, and despite the fact im fairly familiar with japan, ive always found languages to not be my strongest hand.

But have you lived in Japan for several years and lived with a Japanese ?

Kara_Nari

Oct 6, 2005, 20:00

I can see your frustration Maciamo.
However, Japan isnt the only place that this happens.
In New Zealand, so many second or even third generation asians get the same looks of bewilderment.
More so the younger asians that have been born in New Zealand, or came at a young age. Of course their english is perfect, yet they will walk into a store and be spoken to veerrryyyyy sllloooowwwwwllllyyyyy, and for some strange reason, a lot louder than a usual spoken, inside voice.

On a daily basis they are asked how long they have been studying english for, and where are they from. "Im from New Zealand" "yes, yes, but where are you REALLY from" "New Zealand" "Where were you born though?" "I was born in New Zealand" "hahaha, but what are you?" "Im a New Zealander".

Sure people dont marvel over their knife and fork ability, or their ability to eat certain foods, but they are constantly being treated in this belittling manner, for looking like they dont belong.
Hmm maybe this has gone off on another tangent.

Anyway I was just trying to show that other countries have their funny little ways of dealing with a slightly different painted picture.

Mikawa Ossan

Oct 6, 2005, 20:01

Please let me apologize in advance if this gets too long. :bow:

OK, well...let's see...Maciamo, thanks for being such a sport about this.:bow: I wasn't anticipating such a response... :bluush:

To respond in not-perfect order,
You must be wondering : "Why does he know that the Japanese try to praise him and still get offended ?"
If you're talking to me, actually, no I'm not. I understand perfectly. I have been offended at the same thing. I also have gotten offended by people asking me to teach them English, as if every caucasian in Japan is here exclusively for that reason. At least , I used to to.

Somewhere down the line, I came to the realization that many times the people saying these things are just trying to make conversation. They're not REALLY surprised at the fact that you can use chopsticks, but they think it's a safe topic to start conversation. It's like talking about the weather, in that sense.

I find that sometimes I get complimented on my chopstick use in comparison to young Japanese, many of whom for some reason never learned the "correct" way to hold their chopsticks. I think of this more as an indirect insult of Japanese youth than a compliment of myself.

Just something to consider.
If you wonder that, then your mind cannot think like mine (while I can, nevertheless, understand your position).
I'm sure you didn't mean to, but this sounds condescending, and IMHO comes dangerously close to this statement you criticised some Japanese people of making:"Japanese brains work differently and so it's very difficult for foreigners to learn Japanese..."

...(note that I am not confronting my country's culture against the Japanese one, but my personal culture/mindset against any culture in the world).
I'm sorry if I lead you to believe that I thought you were. I don't, although to be more specific, I do think that anyone's "personal culture/mindset" is heavily influenced by the culture you were reared and raised in. I hope you can agree with that. I think that if I personally was born and raised in Japan, I would be a very different person than I am today.

It can be explained by Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Ah, yes, Kohlberg. To be fair, I must admit that I personally don't really agree with his stages. But since you brought it up, something about the Wikpedia entry struck me.In Stage six, moral reasoning is based on the use of abstract reasoning using universal ethical principles. One way to do this is by imagining oneself in everyone else's shoes, imagining what they would decide if they were doing the same.This sounded an awful lot like, ...the Japanese try to "read people's feelings" and say what they think would please a person from their point of view.Are Japanese people actually at stage 6 on Kohlberg's stages by any chance?

Since you bring up the issue of logic so much, I would like to point out that being a human being, it' pretty much impossible for ANYONE on the face of Earth to be 100% logical. Yes, some people can be more logical than others, but even if you are comparatively logical, it's not the same as being 100% so. If ever you let emotions influence your judgement or actions, you are not being 100% logical. At least, not in my opinion. :p

In fact, when I first came to Japan, I didn't even suspect that the Japanese could discriminate against well-behaving Westerners interested in their country.Ah, but you see, I was the exact opposite. The first time I went to Japan, it was partly to meet the parents of my girlfriend/fiancee. I knew her father was at least 60 years old and retired, so I came prepared for the worst. I was convinced that he'd hate me for "stealing" his daughter. When we first met, I immediately said the Japanese I had worked so hard to memorize, even though I had no idea what it meant, 「今後ともどうぞよろしくお願いします」. He just grunted and didn't say a word. (Looking back, I almost certainly murdered the pronunciation, and he probably had no idea what I was trying to say. :souka: )

He didn't really talk to me much at all until one day we were playing "hasami shougi" (kind of like checkers for those who don't know) and I solidly beat him. For some reason, I felt playful, so I said, 「お父さん、頭わるい！」with a big smile. (That was about the extent of my Japanese at the time.) He looked at me for a moment and then broke up laughing! Ever since, we got along just great. Right up until his daughter and I separated.... But I digress.

Had is been only for that, I could have dismissed it as a special case. But the longer I stayed in Japan, the more I gained confidence to address locals in Japanese (without my wife's presence), and the more I realised that this was a quite common attitude. I could go to the dry cleaning, several bento shops, ask something at the station, the immediate reaction of most people over 40 (and some younger too) was to "freeze" and make gestures assuming that I was not speaking Japanese. With younger people, they typically responded by this expression of surprise that "eventhough I was only a gaijin, I managed to learn their difficult language".My first reaction to this was, "I wonder what your pronunciation sounds like." I say this because I have encountered a couple of foreigners who spoke reasonably good Japanese gramatically, but it took me a while to figure out what they were saying because of their pronunciation. I have heard my own recorded voice speaking Japanese on occasion, and I was surprised at how different it sounds to me from native speakers. Maybe your pronunciation played a part in your experience.

There was more I was going to say, but this has already gotten quite lengthy. I just want to close in saying that just today alone, I went to the local JA to renew my auto insurance and I talked to someone from the local Asahi newspaper office trying to get me to subscribe (even though I already do. hehe). None of the people involved seemed the least bit suprised that I speak or read Japanese or treated me with anything other than respect.

I will admit though, that I overheard the girl who helped me at the JA say to her colleagues, 「どきどきするね！」 :relief:

Mikawa Ossan

Oct 6, 2005, 20:06

I also thought that the kanji would be the hardest part at first, but it ended up being one of the easiest, as I really liked (and still like) learning them. In fact, without the kanji, it would have taken me longer to acquire my current (passive) vocabulary in Japanese, as kanji compounds help guessing the meaning of unknown words, and even creating new ones quite easily.
I found the same to be true. :wave:

Maciamo

Oct 6, 2005, 20:23

More so the younger asians that have been born in New Zealand, or came at a young age. Of course their english is perfect, yet they will walk into a store and be spoken to veerrryyyyy sllloooowwwwwllllyyyyy, and for some strange reason, a lot louder than a usual spoken, inside voice.

That's very weird for an immigration country with a big Asian community (and tiny total population).

On a daily basis they are asked how long they have been studying english for, and where are they from. "Im from New Zealand" "yes, yes, but where are you REALLY from" "New Zealand" "Where were you born though?" "I was born in New Zealand" "hahaha, but what are you?" "Im a New Zealander".

The question is not properly formulated in the first place. If they want to know about someone's ethnic origin, they should ask where is their family/ancestors' country of origin. This question could be asked by locals and tourists alike to anybody living in NZ, Australia or North America, except for the aborigenes or "natives". I am also interested in the ethnical origins of Americans or Oceanians, just by curiosity or to try to see if I could guess right from their features.

Mike Cash

Oct 6, 2005, 20:59

But have you lived in Japan for several years and lived with a Japanese ?

Let's be fair, now. You haven't done that first bit yourself yet.

Maciamo

Oct 6, 2005, 21:28

They're not REALLY surprised at the fact that you can use chopsticks, but they think it's a safe topic to start conversation. It's like talking about the weather, in that sense.

And do you find this a good topic to start a conversation ? Everytime they say that (or any other pseudo-compliment), I am at a loss to what to respond. Shall I say "oh, you know, I worked hard on it everyday", or "oh, it just came naturally" or just "thank you" ? Anyway, that wouldn't lead to much conversation. Considering that people who praised me on my chopstick use were generally my wife's acquaintances, my wife was there too, we had been introduced, they knew more or less who I was and what I did in Japan, and they could have easily used her to facilitate the conversation in the cases when we were not already discussing. Sometimes such remarks come after I have known the person for a while and we have already discussed about many things. Then, when we end up eating together, this remarks comes up inevitably. My wife now explains that I don't like this kind of compliments, but they usually look even more surprised and try to justify themselves by saying that they truly believe that using chopsticks is not so easy (!!??). Upon which, I try to change the topic. :relief: :-) Same for the questions like "can you eat sushi" or "does your country have 4 season".

This sounded an awful lot like, Are Japanese people actually at stage 6 on Kohlberg's stages by any chance?

Do you mean that the Japanese feel above the law and social conventions because they believe in universal ethics ? I am yet to meet such Japanese. I think the explanation on Wikipedia about "being in someone's shoes" is a bit misleading. If they indeed were like that, why would I be complaining about them not trying to understand my feelings ? Their responses seem automated with such regularity that it feels almost stereotypical. This is one of the most amazing thing for me about Japan, how people's reactions are predictable. They care so much about not going astray from the well-harmonised social conventions that they often have a hard time expressing what they really think (or even realising what their own opinion is, as I noticed with my wife).

In the Japanese society, there are fixed expressions for almost every social situation, and almost everyone uses exactly in the same situation. People greet you in shops with an "irasshaimse", not by a "konnichiwa" or "yokoso". When you meet someone, you always start with "hajimemashite" and after being introduced you say "dozo yoroshiku onegai shimase". When you enter someone's home, you say "o-jama shimasu". No normal Japanese would think of saying something else in these situations. There is only one "right answer". I would call it the routine of conventions, and I believe that asking foreigners whether they can eat sushi, use chopsticks, etc. is part of these conventions. This is also why I think it can be changed.

Like Mad Pierrot said, typical Japanese teachers will tell pupils exactly the same thing about foreigners, even if they should know better from their personal experience. In the last few months, I have tried to ask as many people as possible about what they were taught at school. So far it has been nearly 100% consistent about these fallacies or stereotypes. They are taught that :

- Japan is unique for having 4 seasons
- Westerners all speak English
- Westerners are predominantly of blood-group "O", while Japanese are predominantly "A". The explanation given is always that the Japanese were farmers since ancient times, while Westerners were hunters. An alternative explanation is that the Japanese were vegetarian until Meiji, while Westerners were always heavy meat-eaters. They are also taught that the Chinese are predominantly of group "B", and that "B" people have a stronger ('more anti-social') personality.

I have explained this in more detail in my article Common Japanese misconceptions regarding foreigners and foreign countries (http://www.jref.com/culture/misconceptions_prejudices.shtml). I wrote the article 7 months ago based on everything I had heard times and again till then. I have tried to confirm it as much as I could since then, and all the people I diplomatically questioned did confirm it. I invite you to try to find out among your Japanese acquaintances too (just try to bring up the subject, bring them to ask you the relevant questions, then ask them where they heard about the "farmers vs hunters" theory, and whether they learned that at school or not).

If ever you let emotions influence your judgement or actions, you are not being 100% logical. At least, not in my opinion.

Emotions are often opposed to cold rationality. But logics isn't exactly the same as rationality. Anyway, we need emotions to think, to wonder, to doubt, to question. Without emotions, we would just be computers and not do anything from our own initiative. I believe that it is possible to combine some kind of emotions with very logical thinking, as you as you are not taken over by the emotions only. It is very possible to get angry because someone you discuss with won't argue logically (it is typically the case of blinded religious believers).

My first reaction to this was, "I wonder what your pronunciation sounds like." I say this because I have encountered a couple of foreigners who spoke reasonably good Japanese gramatically, but it took me a while to figure out what they were saying because of their pronunciation.

As a native French speaker, I have no problem rendering any sound found in Japanese (except the "h" for typical French speakers, but it's not a problem for me, as it also exists in English, Dutch or German). French speakers are some of the Westerners who have the easiest to pronouce Japanese (however the Japanese have a tough time pronoucing French, as French has many more sounds). English or German vowels and consonnant are very different from Japanese. A Japanese "k" or "p" is weaker than a Germanic one. But French consonnant are basically the same. Vowels too, except the Japanese "u" which is half-way between the French "u" and "ou" (closer to the "u" actually, which doesn't exist in English). My wife, and other people, say that my pronuciation is about the same as a native Japanese. Pronuciation is one of my strong points when learning languages. English and French pronuciation are extremely different, but no English speaker would guess that I am a French speaker (although they could hear that I am not a native speaker, but cannot tell from where, and some have asked me whether I was Scandinavian as that's the closest pronuciation to English).

So I really don't think that my pronuciation was the issue when the many Japanese who "froze" when I talked to them. It was just that they forced themselves to think that I could not possibly be speaking Japanese. When I talk to Japanese friends in Japanese, I never have to repeat one time what I say for them to understand, except if I use the wrong word or mistake in the grammar (that rarely happens in "small talks").

I also want to say that it happens from time to time that people do not look surprised that I speak Japanese. Sometimes they do not look surprise but still try to talk back in English to me, until they see that communication is easier in Japanese.

mad pierrot

Oct 6, 2005, 22:10

What really troubles me are the types of questions Japanese people ask foreigners. As Mikawa Ossan said, I'm sure some of these dumb questions are directed at making conversation. Then again, you can make conversation about anything, why make it about foreigner's deficiencies?

So why the hell do they ask them? (A.K.A., Can you use chopsticks, speak Japanese, sit seiza, eat nattou, drink tea, whatever.)

I think the reason is cultural identity. It's all about securing their cultural ID. Think about it. All those questions have something to do with Japanese culture. From a very young age it's instilled that Japanese culture is very unique. They're raised being taught how special Japan is. And of course they're right. Japan is special. I think the problem is in emphasizing how special it is they go way overboard. (I've observed this from working at 14 schools over 2 years.) Quite frankly, many of the things that made Japan so unique 50 years ago don't apply anymore today, but they're still being taught them. In order to make Japan seem more special, alot of stereotypes about foreign countries are perpetuated. So you get kids in grade school being taught something like this:

In Japan people love sushi, and eat fish.
In America people eat hamburgers, and eat beef.

The problem is they go overboard and you get people thinking all Americans eat beef and never eat fish, let alone sushi. No joke. I don't know how many times I get a surprised reaction when I tell people I love fish and ate it everyday in America. The list goes on:

Japan has a rainy season. Japan is very humid.
So.....
America doesn't have a rainy season. America is very dry.

And so on and so forth.

Since they get this kind of thinking programmed into their brains at a very young age, they have all kind of bizarre expectations about foreigners. Worst still, I think some people actually get insulted when foreigners fail to live up to their expectations. The was a great story in Kansai Time Out a few years ago about a man living in Kobe. He had been living in Japan for over ten years and quite naturally spoke Japanese well. One day outside of a store, he was stopped by a Japanese man who wanted to speak English with him. He declined politely in Japanese. The Japanese man failed repeatedly attempting to draw him into converstion, getting angrier as time went on. The episode ended with the Japanese guy storming off, yelling at the foreigner to "go home" and such.

This sort of thing has nevered happened to me. However, I did have a similar experiences with co-workers. A fellow teacher liked to repeatedly ask me what "Japanese" things I could do. Yes, I know a little about tea ceremony. Yes, I've tried Judo and Aikido. Yes, I know about the legend of Yoshitsune, etc, etc. He would come up with a different question everyday. Every time I answered "yes," he would walk away disappointedly. When I finally answered "no" to one of his questions, he smiled broadly and annouced it to the entire room. I'm not making this up.

In a nutshell, I disagree with this line of thinking.

Because for every one good Japanese speaker I meet, I come across fifty who struggle to even make basic conversation. And that includes people who have been here for several years.

Why? I agree there are quite a few people who come to Japan not being able to speak Japanese and never bother to learn. But, from my two years in the JET programme, my time with ECC and with private students, and my time at Kansai University, and with friends and family who have come to visit me, I have found gaijin overwhelmingly able to use chopsticks, eat raw fish, etc. Even my grouchy old obasan from the Mid-West could eat nattou. Which is why I scoff whenever a Japanese person tells me it's "rare" that a foreigner can eat sushi....

In sum, I think their own warped perceptions about Japan that color their behavior.

Damn that was long.

:relief:

Maciamo

Oct 6, 2005, 22:46

I completely agree and emphatize with everything you said, Mad Pierrot. :cool:

The problem is they go overboard and you get people thinking all Americans eat beef and never eat fish, let alone sushi. No joke. I don't know how many times I get a surprised reaction when I tell people I love fish and ate it everyday in America. The list goes on:

Yesterday again, as I told one of the students that I had been to Shanghai, he asked me what kind of food people ate there (typical question from a Japanese) and when I told him that there were, among others, Japanese restaurants, including sushi, his reaction was "But the Chinese don't like raw fish. I saw on TV that the Chinese never eat raw fish". (sic !) And he seemed really confused and in disbelief that there could indeed be sushi restaurants in a 13-million people metropolis like Shanghai, just across the sea from Japan.

I come across this kind of heavily stereotypical reactions, I lie not, several times a week. Sometimes to make them understand, I have to tell them things like "but don't Japanese people also eat Chinese, French, Italian or American food ?", "Isn't it true that some Japanese people do not like sushi or natto ?", "Out of 1.3 billion Chinese, why is it surprising that some people may like sushi ?". I think that people who haven't lived in Japan and do not meet a variety of Japanese people all the time (as language teachers do), probably cannot imagine how widespread this phenomenon is. It's not something you hear once in a while; it's a national phenomenon caused by the education system, as Mad Pierrot as explained so well.

This sort of thing has nevered happened to me. However, I did have a similar experiences with co-workers. A fellow teacher liked to repeatedly ask me what "Japanese" things I could do. Yes, I know a little about tea ceremony. Yes, I've tried Judo and Aikido. Yes, I know about the legend of Yoshitsune, etc, etc. He would come up with a different question everyday. Every time I answered "yes," he would walk away disappointedly. When I finally answered "no" to one of his questions, he smiled broadly and annouced it to the entire room. I'm not making this up.

Everytime I meet my mother-in-law's boyfriend, it's like that. :relief:

The last time we went to the restaurant together (with the family), he again tried to find things that I couldn't do like the Japanese, didn't know about Japan or that didn't exist in Europe. It was a kaiseki restaurant, and at the end of the meal came a strange kind of tiny potato (about the size of a blueberry). He asked me whether I knew this or if we had this in Europe. I answered that I had never seen that before to his utter rejoicement. But then my wife and her mother also said that they also didn't know such a potato existed ! :D

But, from my two years in the JET programme, my time with ECC and with private students, and my time at Kansai University, and with friends and family who have come to visit me, I have found gaijin overwhelmingly able to use chopsticks, eat raw fish, etc. Even my grouchy old obasan from the Mid-West could eat nattou. Which is why I scoff whenever a Japanese person tells me it's "rare" that a foreigner can eat sushi....

I usually illustrate this to my Japanese acquaintances (almost all of them on the topic of "sushi and natto", as I can't remembered not being asked about it by someone) by giving them the statistics from JREF (this poll (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276) and that one (http://www.jref.com/polls.shtml), with respectively 43% and 55% of the respondants choosing sushi as their favourite Japanese dish). Maybe I should carry a print of the polls all the time with me. :p

EDIT : as I was watching the weather forecast on NHK 10 min ago, they exceptionally showed the weather for the world. It only lasted 3 seconds though. I was shocked to hear that the guy just said "yo-roppa wa hare", as it was possible to have the same weather all over Europe (what's more, the map showed clouds almost everywhere). This, I think, summarise well the Japanese way of seeing the rest of the world as a series of homogenous continent. The way they think that all Europeans are alike, they don't even make an effort to distinguish the main regions for the weather. If they had little time to review the world's weather on BBC or CNN, they would say something like "15 degree and cloudy in London, 21 degree and sunny in New York..." giving city names, but never a whole continent as it's just senseless.

Indeed, I realised that the weather was always only about Japan, contrarily to other Asian countries, where they normally show the weather for all East Asia too (e.g. on China's CCTV). They could at least show the weather for Korea and China, as thousands of Japanese business people and tourists fly there everyday. They just don't. Nice proof of ethno-centrism.

Mikawa Ossan

Oct 6, 2005, 23:32

Thank you Mad Pierrot for your thoughts! I'll try to respond in the next day or so. (If you can't tell, I love this topic!)
Everytime they say that (or any other pseudo-compliment), I am at a loss to what to respond.Well, I don't know what makes you comfortable, but I usually make a joke about how I've forgotten how to use a knife and fork. (Which is a lie, by the way. I've NEVER known how to properly use them. :blush:) It usually gets a good reaction.

As far as the conversations that can come, let me try to remember some of my own...
How I first learned how to use them. Leading to talking about study-abroad.
How Japanese youth can't seem to use chopsticks "properly", leading to general talk of the youth.
How I was too stubborn to listen to my parents as a child, so now I still hold knives and forks like a 3 year old child.
What Japanese restaurants are like in the USA.
Why do we call them "chopsticks" in English anyway?
(The post I made some time ago about) how sushi is not "really supposed" to be eaten by chopsticks.
The difference among Japanese, Korean, and Chinese chopsticks.
I'm sure there's more.

Reference is made to my chopstick ability less and less as time moves on. Every so often, I'll be eating with someone, and after a while they'll suddenly seem to notice. It's kind of like, "Oh yeah, that's right, you're a foreigner..." At any rate, I've noticed that once it's been used, it rarely if ever gets recycled on a later date as a conversation starter. Truly, I think it's not important enough to get offended over.

For the "can you eat sushi" question, on the rare instances I get that, I always like to say how popular sushi actually is among certain sections of the US population.

For the "does your country have 4 seasons" question...I'm sure I've been asked before, but I honestly can't think of any instances at the moment.

But seriously, why not ask these questions, even if they are meaningless? In English, we often ask, "how are you?" even when we don't REALLY want to know. We ask other equally meaningless questions on numerous occasions. It's just a part of human interaction. Japanese do it among themselves all the time, too. I'm sure you'll agree with me on that. Why is it any worse when they do the same thing to us?

This is hard for me to argue, because I really honestly don't think it's important enough to get upset about. Even though I sometimes used to get upset, somehow, it all just "bounces off of me" nowadays.

Do you mean that the Japanese feel above the law and social conventions because they believe in universal ethics ?No, I mean that I think it's silly point to try to make. To put it more bluntly, are you trying to imply that your sense of morality is superior to general Japanese morality just because in your opinion your own morality ranks "higher" on some arbitrary scale that (seems to me) is based entirely on a Western mind-set? It was my way of trying to defuse the indignation I felt at your remarks. I'm sorry I wasn't more direct. I'll stop here.

They care so much about not going astray from the well-harmonised social conventions that they often have a hard time expressing what they really think...I can see how you think this, but it's not my experience. I don't it any different in essence from life where I come from originally. There's something call the "Minnesota nice" that's strikingly similar to the "honne/tatemae" dichotomy, at least in my mind. Where I come from, it's generally understood that there are times when you just don't say what you really think because it's just not worth the consequences. I see a lot of the same reasoning in Japan.

In the Japanese society, there are fixed expressions for almost every social situation, and almost everyone uses exactly in the same situation...I'm sorry, I don't see the problem. As far as the "routine of conventions" being susceptible to change is concerned, I agree with you in essence, but I don't think we should hope to see it in our lifetimes. Also, I feel that although we can and do influence this change ever so slightly in our daily interactions, I think that it is wrong for any of us to try to impose our own personal beliefs on another culture as a whole. For any of us to think that our ideas are inherently better than the Japanese is extremely egocentric. On a smaller scale, you and I are both foreigners, but we have difference in opinions, too. For example, the right to vote. I believe in universal human rights, too, but I apply them differently than you. Who's to say who's right? You? Why are you more qualified than me? Me? Why am I more qualified than you?

Like Mad Pierrot said, typical Japanese teachers will tell pupils exactly the same thing about foreigners, even if they should know better from their personal experience.So your beef is with the teachers, and not the Japanese as a whole then, right? I find it hard to logically get upset with someone who's merely confirming whether what they've been taught is true or not. This is in reference to the first point I addressed in this post.

The 3 examples you listed are interesting.

-4 seasons. I don't think that it's so much that children are taught that Japan is unique (i.e. the only place in the world where this happens) in this respect, but rather that not every place on Earth has 4 four distinct seasons, so it's one thing (of several) that makes Japan special.

-Westerners=English
I think it's more of a "everyone everywhere learns English at least to a limited extent" kind of thing. As far as Westerners are concerned, I would say that as the overwhelming majority of us here in Japan seem to be able to speak English, I think it's very reasonable to come to this conclusion and gloss over the facts a little.

-blood type
This struck me as funny because just last week my co-workers were trying to convince me that the majority of Americans had in fact type A blood as I do. That was the first time I'd heard of that, so I can't comment further.

It is very possible to get angry because someone you discuss with won't argue logically (it is typically the case of blinded religious believers).I'll grant you this, but is it more logical to get angry or to stop trying to argue with someone who won't listen to you anyway?

So I really don't think that my pronuciation was the issue when the many Japanese who "froze" when I talked to them.Well, respectfully, I'm not convinced. However,it may well be that your pronunciation had nothing to do with anything. How about your intonation? Your manner of speach? Do you use words and phrases that are not common? How about your body language? Something about the way you dress? There are any number of possible contributing factors.

I also want to say that it happens from time to time that people do not look surprised that I speak Japanese. Sometimes they do not look surprise but still try to talk back in English to me, until they see that communication is easier in Japanese.Yes, but understand that the people I mentioned in my previous post didn't even bother trying to use English. Not a single word.

I think there's something else going on there, and I'm truly curious as to what it is. Maybe I'm a freak of nature in my experiences, but I have had my share of exeriences similar to yours. I think you might find that the less you try to mould Japan into your ideal, the less the Japanese will treat you as a foreigner. This is my theory.

I just looked at the Post Preview...wow, long!:gomen:

GaijinPunch

Oct 7, 2005, 08:13

Yesterday again, as I told one of the students that I had been to Shanghai, he asked me what kind of food people ate there (typical question from a Japanese) and when I told him that there were, among others, Japanese restaurants, including sushi, his reaction was "But the Chinese don't like raw fish. I saw on TV that the Chinese never eat raw fish".

You seriuosly need to broaden your scope of acquaintances. The stories you do indeed paint a picture, but your obviously missing out on a lot.

You're giving people that haven't been to Japan a view askew that Japanese people are in some way incapable of thought. They are just as smart and stupid as any other race... yours and mine included.

Silverpoint

Oct 7, 2005, 09:37

And do you find this a good topic to start a conversation ? Everytime they say that (or any other pseudo-compliment), I am at a loss to what to respond. Shall I say "oh, you know, I worked hard on it everyday", or "oh, it just came naturally" or just "thank you" ?

Maciamo, it strikes me (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) that as this debate has continued your arguments have become more and more desperate due to your absolute refusal ever to concede a point to anyone, or revise your view based on other peoples comments.

What on earth are you doing now? Condemning the Japanese because in a situation which many people find a little awkward (i.e. meeting people for the first time), they say a slightly clumsy opening line in the conversation in order to ingratiate themselves. For God's sake man, I'm sure people would have a lot more respect for your view if you just said "Ok, maybe I'm overreacting a bit here" instead of having to pursue these increasingly ridiculous rebuttals just to try and save face in an argument in which clearly your opinion is in the minority.

I could apply your argument to absolutely anything. If someone said to me "nice weather today", should I in the same way feel upset and insulted because I've been living on this earth for 32 years, and I'm intelligent enough to know for myself if the weather is good or not. And they should be well aware of that.

Elizabeth

Oct 7, 2005, 10:37

Japanese people in general make much less chit chat and unnecessary filler conversation than Americans, that much at least I'm eternally grateful for.
I've never been asked by a Japanese store clerk "How are you doing today?" proceeding to describe their life situation in great detail or a Japanese airline attendent why I'm studying instead of paying enough attention to the movie selections. :p

Conventional responses may structure an interaction, but they aren't necessary limitations and anyone that has something interesting or important to say can move beyond them. Naturally, there is also a certain level of boredom with these answers which competes with the desire to make the other person comfortable and meet them on a compatible level of graciousness and modesty. I seriously can't see the big deal about too many thank you's or welcomes. :souka:

Maciamo

Oct 7, 2005, 11:02

You seriuosly need to broaden your scope of acquaintances.

I am sorry if I am not introduced to more people who react different. Let me tell you more about what kind of people I usually meet in Tokyo.

I have met and discussed with maybe 250 people for my job (I teach one to one, or small groups lessons), and maybe 80 friends of my wife (she has a lot of them, already 50 that came to our wedding party). In both groups, they are mostly in their mid-20's to late 30's.

Among my wife's female friends, less are university-educated (maybe just 2-year college or just highschool), many are housewives or work part-time. Among her male friends, there are all kind of people, from petrol station attendant to company director.

90% of my students (about 50% male, 50% female) are university-educated and have "good jobs" in finance (banking, securities, insurance), IT, medicine, telecommunication, or are some managers or directors of some kind. Among the women, about 1/3 are housewives or work part-time. I have had two hostesses too.

In both groups, I can see a correlation between the social status and education level and the number of stupid remarks or beliefs. Non-university educated people or people with "normal jobs" tend to be the worst, except if they have lived abroad (not always though). I have also taught 3 flight attendants (so well-travelled), 3 lawyers, 1 university professor and 1 CEO of a quite big company, but I can't complain about them at all. Some of the people in finance are also clever or well-educated enough not to ask dumb questions, but only about 1/3. All in all, I can say that amongst these 300+ people, 80 to 90% of them have many strong (false) stereotypes about "other countries" and especially Westerners.

I haven't discussed about the blood group issue ("hunter vs farmer theory" - which I think is a racist theory of nihonjinron) with most of them (maybe only 50 people), but I haven't met a single person (not even those with a very good knowledge of the West and excellent education) that did not believe in this blatantly false myth (see here for details (http://www.jref.com/culture/misconceptions_prejudices.shtml#Farmers)). Of course they were taught about it at school (why ? if not for racist and nationalistic purposes ?) but had they but a little sense of critical thinking they should see that it is just not possible (first of all Japan was not an agricultural country until after the fall of the Roman Empire).

Last month, a doctor (PhD) in medicine working in genetical research, also told me about this absurd theory. I asked her if she learnt that during her medical studies, but she said that it was in primary school. So, eventhough she has the specialist knowledge to understand how ridiculous and racist this theory is, she never questioned it as it was inculcated in her mind at a very young age. After our discussion, she understood that she was mistaken (probably ashamed too), but it took 15 min of historical explanations, and she would come back with even more misguided arguments such as "But Europeans always ate meat, while the Japanese were vegetarian" To which I had to explain that until recently meat was a luxury even in the West, and that some medieval peasant never ate meat as they couldn't afford it. But in Japan, only 4-legged animals were prohibited bu Buddhism, and fish and chicken was eaten, at least by well-off people (like in Europe). This doctor had plenty of other prejudiced ideas or misconceptions about the West (or about China, as we also discussed that).

So, I really have to talk to a selected part of the elite (visibly a PhD in medicine is not enough) to find some decent people that do not look surprise because "my country has four seasons", "there are as many A as O blood-types in both Europe and Japan", "some Chinese and Westerners also like sushi" or I can read the kanji on my electronic dictionary during the lesson.
It's not related to their travel experience either, as I have only met 2 or 3 people who had never been abroad among my students (more amongst my wife's friends though - which is probably normal as a good deal of those who study English are interested in travelling/studying/living abroad).

Don't even get me started about elderly people ! My grand-mother-in-law is a good example... I won't say more...

So what shall I do ? Close my eyes on the reality ? Turn a deaf ear to all the weird things I hear ? Sometimes I can, but some issue (like this hunter vs farmer thing) really get on my nerves and make me fume.

Ever since I was a child, I have doubted the veracity of some of the things I were taught (at school or by my parents) and asked for "proofs" if I was not convinced. That's how I already had arguments with my religion teacher when I was 6 years old (quite precocious, but frankly how can you be made to believe that "the heart is the symbol of goodness, and at the same time that god decided that those on his rights were the good/chosen ones, so why if god made us, did he choose to place our heart to the left". This is just one of the reasonings of my childhood, but I am digressing).

So how can't even well-educated and intelligent Japanese not know such basic things ! Why should a well-travelled businessman ask me if we have 4 seasons in Europe, when he has been there several times ?! Don't Japanese know that the European concept of Christmas (which the Japanese love to copy) is associated with snow because Christmas is in December ? Don't they make the connection between what they see/hear in the news in Japan (e.g. "heat wave hit Europe, many die in France", "Forest fire in Spain", "recored 38.5'C in London", etc.) with the fact that summers can be hot in summer. They all know that if it's hot in summer and cold in winter, temperatures have to change in between. They know that countries like the Netherlands are famous for tulips in Spring. All the Japanese I have met knew that (maybe because of the famous Huis ten Bosch "Dutch village" theme park near Nagasaki). They have all seen dozens of movies which are set in various European countries. They all have the information necessary, but can't think by themsevles. I just can't understand that.

I cannot even turn a deaf ear, as quite a few really doubted what I said (eehhh, honto ka ?") when I explained that all European countries had 4 seasons. To show their disbelief, they ask if we have snow in winter (:angeryfire:), cherry blossoms in spring or hot summer. Wtf ! Like Mad Pierrot said, they look really disappointed when I tell them that "yes, we do have even cherry blossoms in Europe, although not as many trees well aligned along the canals like in Tokyo". I think they instinctively know the answers to their questions, but prefer to believe what they are told, as it makes them feel that their country is 'special' or even 'better'. How many times haven't I heared people saying "Nihon ni umarete yokatta" or "I was so lucky to be born in Japan". When I ask why, they typically reply "We have cherry blossoms in Japan" or "We are lucky to be born in a rich and safe country with a good education system". to which I can only scoff.

As we are at it, another typical stereotypes (which was true during the late 1980s'), is that Japan is a rich and expensive country. Nowadays it sounds almost as true as "Americans don't eat fish but burgers". Japan ranks only 17th for the GDP per capita (well behind the USA), and things in Japan are usually much cheaper than in Northern Europe (except imported European goods, obviously). That's another kind of misconception that make Japanese feel good about their country. They just can't see that things change with time. Most of their steeotypes about the West seem to have been forged just after WWII (probably during the US occupation). Yet, this one is only 20 years old. So they really choose whatever sounds advantageous to them, and when there is nothing, they invent it (eg. hunter/farmer theory). Why do they do that ? Is it to satisfy a sense of inferiority or insecurity ?

Maciamo

Oct 7, 2005, 11:43

Maciamo, it strikes me (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) that as this debate has continued your arguments have become more and more desperate due to your absolute refusal ever to concede a point to anyone, or revise your view based on other peoples comments.

Maybe I am a bit obssessive-compulsive on this. But I have to live with it everyday, so sometimes I need to "release the steam". Note that when I don't reply to a comment, It means that I tacitly agree. Because the proverb "Silence implies consent" means a lot to me, I have to say something if I do not fully agree. So far I have been goving backgrounders, not really disageeing. I thank Mikawa Ossan for his examples of how to deal with the chopstick situation. I admit that humour is not a typical way of mine to escape awkward situations. I'd rather explain my way of thinking so that they at least know how I feel about it. I am a teacher, so believe in education. I just can't let people live with heavy misconceptions. It's as much my job/duty to correct them on this than on the language itself. I know from experience (e.g. with my wife) that it pays to explain these things.

What on earth are you doing now? Condemning the Japanese because in a situation which many people find a little awkward (i.e. meeting people for the first time), they say a slightly clumsy opening line in the conversation in order to ingratiate themselves.

As you can see in my post above, most of these "awkward situations" did not happen when I first met someone. Sometimes it was months after I had met the person for at least one hour every week. I usually don't go to the restaurant with people I hardly know (except my wife's friends). How would you explain that my "father-in-law", which I know very well, still ask all kind of questions to try to find things for which Japan or Japanese people are unique ?

For God's sake man, I'm sure people would have a lot more respect for your view if you just said "Ok, maybe I'm overreacting a bit here" instead of having to pursue these increasingly ridiculous rebuttals just to try and save face in an argument in which clearly your opinion is in the minority.

I am not overreacting and I am not trying to save face. I am trying to make other people understand what I want them to understand. I told you, I believe in education. My methods may be non-conformist, but that's because I am non-conformist.

I could apply your argument to absolutely anything. If someone said to me "nice weather today", should I in the same way feel upset and insulted because I've been living on this earth for 32 years, and I'm intelligent enough to know for myself if the weather is good or not. And they should be well aware of that.

Not really. When someone say "nice weather today", they just want to share their present feelings, or ask for a confirmation from the other party. Note that weather is independent from any party involved. It is different from complimenting somebody on things that do not need compliment, and thus making them feel awkard.

What I hated particularily in my first few months in Japan was when someone would say "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" while I was struggling to make a sentence. This time it's not about complimenting something that should be natural, but the opposite "complimenting someone who is not good at something". I sometimes wonder if their aim was to make fun of me, as they didn't have to make a remark stressing my poor skills. Interestingly, I haven't hear that "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" since I became reasonably fluent, which somehow proves that it was not a real compliment. Now, they just say "oh, you can speak Japanese" or "oh, you can read kanji". But it's still out of place when they say that after I have just said one sentence or read some very easy kanji (you know, those that we all know after a month in Japan).

The other way round is better, IMO. They could have shown their surprised at my reading a few simple kanji after I just arrived in Japan, while now that my Japanese is decent, they could say "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" (but only after a real conversation, and given I didn't mistake too much - NOT after a "konnichiwa" !). The opposite, knowing about my background, is trying to make fun of me or underestimate me (almost the same thing).

It's interesting to have this discussion with you, because if you too cannot understand the difference between saying "nice weather today" and doing so false compliment, it means that there are more people than I thought who can't distinguish between clearly different feelings.

The discussion about misconceptions is yet a different thing, although related. It is not about sharing a feeling ("nice weather today"), and not about complimenting ("oh, you can use chopsticks/read kanji, sugoooii !"). It is about a person's knowledge or conception of the world. In that case, I do not feel insulted or take it personally, I just can't believe what I hear. I feel sorry for them, and wonder how on earth an education system could deprive people of their critical sense to this extend. I said it was related to the "false complimenting" because it only happens because of such miscnceptions (here, "foreigners cannot speak Japanese, even after living several years in Japan, because Japanese is so unique and Japanese brains so different, because Japanese society was agricultural well before agriculture was invented, and Westerners were just axe-wielding barbarian hunters !" :okashii: ).

It's important to try to understand what a person's conception of the world is to understand why they say things they say. I have been digging on this for at least 2 years now. There is such a thing as a common Japanese "world view". It is instilled to children since their tenderest age, and include all the misconceptions listed here (http://www.jref.com/culture/misconceptions_prejudices.shtml).
My aim is to dispel the myths, for everybody's good, and help improving relations between Japan and "the outside".

GaijinPunch

Oct 7, 2005, 12:40

There is such a thing as a common Japanese "world view". It is instilled to children since their tenderest age, and include all the misconceptions listed here.
My aim is to dispel the myths, for everybody's good, and help improving relations between Japan and "the outside

In my experience, which is longer than yours, but shorter than others, one tends to enjoy Japan alot more after realization that he is not going to change it.

Maciamo

Oct 7, 2005, 12:46

In my experience, which is longer than yours, but shorter than others, one tends to enjoy Japan alot more after realization that he is not going to change it.

Not if your blood boils when you hear one misconception after the other on a daily basis. It would be easier if I could keep a circle of workmates that didn't change all the time. I enjoy more talking to people which I have known for 2 or 3 years, as I don't have to re-explain the same things again. I had a student who after 2 years still asked me things like "how do you do this in America" when she knew very well as was not American, and I had told her many times that I didn't like being taken for an American. So, it's true, some people won't change. but others will. It's worth "educating" people from the start as you don't know how long/often you are going to meet. With people I know I wll only meet once, I just don't bother.

Elizabeth

Oct 7, 2005, 14:00

Not really. When someone say "nice weather today", they just want to share their present feelings, or ask for a confirmation from the other party. Note that weather is independent from any party involved. It is different from complimenting somebody on things that do not need compliment, and thus making them feel awkard.

What I hated particularily in my first few months in Japan was when someone would say "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" while I was struggling to make a sentence. This time it's not about complimenting something that should be natural, but the opposite "complimenting someone who is not good at something". I sometimes wonder if their aim was to make fun of me, as they didn't have to make a remark stressing my poor skills. Interestingly, I haven't hear that "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" since I became reasonably fluent, which somehow proves that it was not a real compliment. Now, they just say "oh, you can speak Japanese" or "oh, you can read kanji". But it's still out of place when they say that after I have just said one sentence or read some very easy kanji (you know, those that we all know after a month in Japan).

The other way round is better, IMO. They could have shown their surprised at my reading a few simple kanji after I just arrived in Japan, while now that my Japanese is decent, they could say "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" (but only after a real conversation, and given I didn't mistake too much - NOT after a "konnichiwa" !). The opposite, knowing about my background, is trying to make fun of me or underestimate me (almost the same thing).

It's interesting to have this discussion with you, because if you too cannot understand the difference between saying "nice weather today" and doing so false compliment, it means that there are more people than I thought who can't distinguish between clearly different feelings.

The discussion about misconceptions is yet a different thing, although related. It is not about sharing a feeling ("nice weather today"), and not about complimenting ("oh, you can use chopsticks/read kanji, sugoooii !"). It is about a person's knowledge or conception of the world. In that case, I do not feel insulted or take it personally, I just can't believe what I hear. I feel sorry for them, and wonder how on earth an education system could deprive people of their critical sense to this extend. I said it was related to the "false complimenting" because it only happens because of such miscnceptions (here, "foreigners cannot speak Japanese, even after living several years in Japan, because Japanese is so unique and Japanese brains so different, because Japanese society was agricultural well before agriculture was invented, and Westerners were just axe-wielding barbarian hunters !" :okashii: ).

It's important to try to understand what a person's conception of the world is to understand why they say things they say. I have been digging on this for at least 2 years now. There is such a thing as a common Japanese "world view". It is instilled to children since their tenderest age, and include all the misconceptions listed here (http://www.jref.com/culture/misconceptions_prejudices.shtml).
My aim is to dispel the myths, for everybody's good, and help improving relations between Japan and "the outside".
Although isn't "false complementing" or flattery a very well ingrained social tactic in Japan, at least something I've heard other Japanese sometimes complain about as well, even if I haven't been there enough to witness it personally. Clearly anyone who takes "Your Japanese is so good" seriously with "Mada mada" for instance will be looked at as a fool. A very offhand "thank you" is the most appropriate response. The stragegic reasoning behind using it is unclear, but has very little to do, in my mind, with expectations of Westerners or lacking critical thinking skills.

The other series of 'misconceptions' are more difficult to handle, they may find the particlar reaction or message they get unique and interesting if nothing else. :relief: I've never as much spent time with narrow-minded or unenlightened, or even non-university educated friends. When I tell them that Americans behave certain ways, that there is recycling here (from someone just back from a week-long vacation in California and moderately good English) was the latest, it is taken as a bit surprising but at least not doubted or forgotten. It must not have been an iconic myth inculcated by the school system. :blush:

studyonline

Oct 7, 2005, 17:35

Japan is an island country. People are living in a small world. I could easily understand that "common" way of their perspectives on things.

Even like about 10 years ago, people in the main land Japan used to think all Okinawans do Karate. In a worse case, they even thought all Okinawans could speak English.

We may be so educated and score high in Math, but our ignorance toward people and other cultures are serious problem. Really, if you got blond hair, many Japanese will asuume you can speak English and are from the U.S.

You may be treated like a star by the people once you let them know that you can actually speak Japanese! I tell you, it's insane.

Mike Cash

Oct 7, 2005, 18:48

Maciamo

Oct 7, 2005, 19:14

Do you see anything odd or inconsistent about the fact that one the one hand you base your economic livelihood in Japan on your gaijinity and on the other hand ***** and moan like hell that your gaijinity is a central theme in the way many Japanese relate to you?

Not really. I don't see what my job has to do with chopsticks, seasons or blood groups. These were already in their mind well before they met me. My appearance, behaviour, or way of relating with them has nothing to do with it.

Mike Cash

Oct 7, 2005, 19:36

That sort of thing plays no small part in the gaijin fascination factor which provides at least some portion of many Japanese people's motivation to avail themselves of your professional services.

Kinsao

Oct 7, 2005, 20:10

OMG � this thread got so long - I have trouble catching up now! :mad:

I知 not trying to disagree with you, Maciamo. Of course, I can understand that it is irritating to have this happen to you. People constantly commenting on these things such as using chopsticks and speaking Japanese, yes, I can imagine it is distinctly wearing when you have gone through it many times. I can also understand that you wonder why people ask these question and why even well-educated and otherwise intelligent people often make strange assumptions based on stereotypes. I am sure I would wonder the same thing, if I was in your place. It is a fair question and it is also a good thing that you and people like you try to challenge such stereotypes and change people's views!

But every country does have its own stereotypes about foreigners, admittedly some less than others. For example, in my experience in the UK I have met quite a lot of 'normal'-seeming and nice people who hold the strangest ideas! I used to go out with a Japanese guy and one of my greatest friends would constantly make what I would think of as 'racist' jokes. It didn't bother me personally, because I knew he was not trying to be offensive; such remarks were based quite simply on ignorance, even though he is quite an intelligent man in many other respects. (Actually I mean ignorance about acceptable behaviour, not necessarily ignorance about the Japanese culture!) So, you get these stupid things in all countries and cultures. And, of course, what Kara Nari said.

From your experiences, though, it would seem that it is more widespread in Japan because of the education system teaching such untruths to children.

In fact, I was quite bad at learning languages at school, and I have only really started to like foreign languages and started learning by myself from about 17 years old. This contradicts the theory that young children learn more easily languages, as for in my case I found it easier after puberty.

That is very interesting. There is hope for me yet!

Strangely enough, I am also used to people not 'understanding' me. Funny, that... :clueless: :D

And is it better to tolerate everything in life, even the clearly negative aspects ? I think modern Western societies are putting too much importance on tolerance. Should we, for instance, tolerate religious or political extremism ?

That is an extremely good point and I agree with you! :p I am not a very tolerant person, in fact. :bluush:

I also thought that the kanji would be the hardest part at first, but it ended up being one of the easiest, as I really liked (and still like) learning them. In fact, without the kanji, it would have taken me longer to acquire my current (passive) vocabulary in Japanese, as kanji compounds help guessing the meaning of unknown words, and even creating new ones quite easily.

Yaay! I am looking forward to learning the kanji. I intend to leave it for a little while longer, otherwise I run the risk of overloading my brain with info (I am already losing my memory because of stress :kanashii: ) but in the near future I am certainly going to learn, and this is very encouraging. I'm lucky too in that I assimilate vocab very quickly. :relief:

Hey, if I was to go to Japan, I am totally sure there would be times when I would end up asking a really dumb question by mistake. :sorry:

As far as the "routine of conventions" being susceptible to change is concerned, I agree with you in essence, but I don't think we should hope to see it in our lifetimes. Also, I feel that although we can and do influence this change ever so slightly in our daily interactions, I think that it is wrong for any of us to try to impose our own personal beliefs on another culture as a whole.

Yeah! :cool:

Actually - I stray a bit! - there are lots of English people who also share the misconception that Japanese is an incredibly difficult language to learn. If I mention at all that I am learning Japanese, the reaction is usually like 'Wow! So difficult!' OK admittedly I have only a really low level, but so far it's not so difficult. Well, any language becomes more difficult the higher level you go, of course.

Japanese people in general make much less chit chat and unnecessary filler conversation than Americans

I noticed that my ex was one of the very few people I knew who enjoyed to talk around a topic. Of course, English people do, but it is more unusual to find someone who just dives straight into a 'subject' with little or no small talk (in my - admittedly limited - experience they are usually mad types in the pub!). I have no idea whether that is anything to do with being Japanese or whether it is just a personality thing.

the heart is the symbol of goodness, and at the same time that god decided that those on his rights were the good/chosen ones, so why if god made us, did he choose to place our heart to the left

That doesn't sound like religious education instruction to me - that sounds more like ridiculous pseudo-religious superstition!

How many times haven't I heared people saying "Nihon ni umarete yokatta" or "I was so lucky to be born in Japan". When I ask why, they typically reply "We have cherry blossoms in Japan" or "We are lucky to be born in a rich and safe country with a good education system". to which I can only scoff.

Maybe it is a little bit of the 'ignorance is bliss', which of course I don't approve of. But on the other hand, rich and safe country, well, I can think of many, many, countries in the world, very poor and highly dangerous countries, where I am extremely glad I do not live. Actually, yes, they ARE lucky to live in Japan - comparatively speaking with the rest of the world.

But that bit about the education system... ewww... the rose coloured glasses... :buuh:

Although I could say the same thing about England, even though I don't think the education system is good in fact, not compared with an ideal education system that I would like, but when I consider and compare with other countries throughout the world, I think we have enough that I could consider myself lucky.

I am trying to make other people understand what I want them to understand. I told you, I believe in education.

I can understand your frustration. But people will only learn, if their mind is open to learn. For someone whose mind is open, everything is an 'education'! But if their mind is closed, it is like a limpet on a rock in many cases, the more you try to prise it open, the harder it will stick. (I don't know in that case what is the best tactic � like the limpet, a sudden sharp kick maybe? :D )

Not if your blood boils when you hear one misconception after the other on a daily basis.

I've got some nice little pills you might be interested in� :-)

Silverpoint

Oct 7, 2005, 20:56

Not if your blood boils when you hear one misconception after the other on a daily basis.

I'm somewhat consfused as to why you seem to continually encounter these problems and yet none of the rest of us who live here seem to have anything like the life you describe.

Actually, I'm a little at a loss here, because having read back through this thread, I genuinely find some of the things you have started to espouse quite disturbing (particulary your comments about your IQ, and your relationship to 'less intelligent' people). While it might sound a cheap shot, these types of comments are only one-step removed from the some of the less savory doctrines of nazism.

Maciamo

Oct 7, 2005, 21:21

I'm somewhat consfused as to why you seem to continually encounter these problems and yet none of the rest of us who live here seem to have anything like the life you describe.

Because I analyse more what people say and try to understand their deep way of thinking, maybe ? Because I am more (intellectually) sensitive to these kind of things ?

While it might sound a cheap shot, these types of comments are only one-step removed from the some of the less savory doctrines of nazism.

That's right ! The Japanese government is inculcating 'nihonjinron' ideas through the education system, and that is damn close to what the Nazi would do to brainwash their citizens about the superiority of their race and culture (e.g. the "hunter vs farmer theory" is clearly racistic, as it is based on the difference between the Japanese and Westerners, and although it is a lie, it is skewed in favour of the Japanese). So I guess my task is to rectify this educational misguidance.

NB : No need to reply that it wasn't what you meant, I understood very well, but you visibly do not understand my intentions. So I have turned your argument back to show you what my point is.

Elizabeth

Oct 7, 2005, 21:29

Actually, I'm a little at a loss here, because having read back through this thread, I genuinely find some of the things you have started to espouse quite disturbing (particulary your comments about your IQ, and your relationship to 'less intelligent' people). While it might sound a cheap shot, these types of comments are only one-step removed from the some of the less savory doctrines of nazism.
And this is actually a highly moderated expression of it compared with a select few of the back threads. :okashii: I'll keep it in mind never to permanently settle in a place so aversive and at odds with my personality that I need the pretext of doing so to "educate" the people and "improve" the culture.

Kinsao

Oct 7, 2005, 21:30

the "hunter vs farmer theory" is clearly racistic, as it is based on the difference between the Japanese and Westerners, and although it is a lie, it is skewed in favour of the Japanese

Uhhh... I don't mean to split hairs, but why is it skewed in favour of the Japanese? I mean, I don't understand why "farmers" would necessarily be considered superior to "hunters"? :?

Myself, I'd take a hunter over a farmer any day! :blush:

Mikawa Ossan

Oct 7, 2005, 23:29

Wow, this thread got a lot of posts today! I wanted to respond to Mad Pierrot's earlier post here, but I'm too tired right now (Long day at the office).

Instead, as I was trying to catch up on the events of this thread, the thought ocurred to me that Maciamo might have a better time at it if he changed professions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you work at Eikaiwa (English Conversation). You might enjoy doing something else much better. I will further assume that your current visa is pretty flexible in terms of the work you can do, so if your Japanese is up to it, you should be able to find a job at another company without too much problem.

Hopefully your new co-workers won't change too much, so you can live in peace after a while.

Incidentally, I'm completely serious about this. I hope I made sense...

Maciamo

Oct 7, 2005, 23:32

Uhhh... I don't mean to split hairs, but why is it skewed in favour of the Japanese? I mean, I don't understand why "farmers" would necessarily be considered superior to "hunters"? :?

Myself, I'd take a hunter over a farmer any day! :blush:

Well, it seems very clear to the Japanese that the farmers is the symbol of civilisation (as it is its main prerequisite), while the hunter represents the primitive caveman.

Maciamo

Oct 7, 2005, 23:37

And this is actually a highly moderated expression of it compared with a select few of the back threads. :okashii: I'll keep it in mind never to permanently settle in a place so aversive and at odds with my personality that I need the pretext of doing so to "educate" the people and "improve" the culture.

So you believe that all cultures on earth (including your own) are perfect or cannot be improved (for some reasons I cannot understand). Cultures evolve with time, and one of the causes that make them evolve is the contact with other cultures.

Anyway, it is off the mark, as I was not talking of improving Japanese culture (they know well enough how to copy the West, or China in the past). I believe that I am repeated enough times that this was all a matter of education that needed to be changed. Is it changing the culture of a country that to tell the people about other countries so that they understand them better and do not cause offense when meeting foreigners because of misplaced or prejudiced comments ? I just want to open their (and maybe your) eyes.

And I believe I also have work to do in my own country (for example, about Leopold II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9opold_II_of_Belgium)'s atrocities in Congo, which many Belgians have hardly heard about, if at all). I am also a strong opponent of the monarchy in my country, and want to reform many things (including the education system, as explained here (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19362)). My role is Japan is much more modest - just improve relations between Japanese and Westerners, as it directly concerns me.

Maciamo

Oct 7, 2005, 23:45

Instead, as I was trying to catch up on the events of this thread, the thought ocurred to me that Maciamo might have a better time at it if he changed professions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you work at Eikaiwa (English Conversation). You might enjoy doing something else much better. I will further assume that your current visa is pretty flexible in terms of the work you can do, so if your Japanese is up to it, you should be able to find a job at another company without too much problem.

Thanks for the advice. :p I am well aware of this, and I already looking for something else.

Silverpoint

Oct 8, 2005, 00:37

Because I analyse more what people say and try to understand their deep way of thinking, maybe ? Because I am more (intellectually) sensitive to these kind of things ?

Which means what exactly? You're intellectually superior to the rest of us?

NB : No need to reply that it wasn't what you meant, I understood very well, but you visibly do not understand my intentions.

Which is exactly what I hoped you'd say and really just reinforces my previous point.

Elizabeth

Oct 8, 2005, 02:02

Anyway, it is off the mark, as I was not talking of improving Japanese culture (they know well enough how to copy the West, or China in the past). I believe that I am repeated enough times that this was all a matter of education that needed to be changed. Is it changing the culture of a country that to tell the people about other countries so that they understand them better and do not cause offense when meeting foreigners because of misplaced or prejudiced comments ? I just want to open their (and maybe your) eyes.
Aside from serious issues of education reform, I've yet to come across another foreigner as easily, or at all actually, offended by these so-called myths that are driving Japanese perceptions of Westerners. On the contrary, the most offensive and disrespecful comments have consistently been in the other direction.

Improved relationships on a personal level naturally involve compromises and change from both parties. The issues have been laid out ad nauseum over several months and years here -- let us know next time when you begin to see some real progress. :-)

Bucko

Oct 8, 2005, 02:19

I'm finding more and more Japanese people here in Osaka who don't give a second thought as to whether or not I speak Japanese. People will just waltz up to me and blurt something out expecting me to understand, and I wish I did (btw I'm a 6 foot, brown hair, green eyed white guy).

The other day I was waiting for the tram when a man pulled up next to me on his bike and asked for directions to somewhere, in Japanese. I didn't really know what he said so I just replied, "sumimasen, wakaranai". Then he skipped to the next person who gave him the directions he needed.

I reckon the people who are most surprised that you speak Japanese and that you can use chopsticks are the ones who have had previous (although not a lot of) exposure to Westerners and English. I.e. Japanese who have gone on a holiday to Hawaii, can speak a few English phrases, maybe know someone from OS.

Kara_Nari

Oct 8, 2005, 02:37

Oh dear, im waaaaaaayyyyy behind here! A lot of chatter has been going on since I last visited this thread.

All I wanted to say was: If you are bothered about people asking about the weather, when it is evidently clear to you how the weather actually is...
Think about things that people in other countries might say instead.

On a daily basis I am asked 'Bap mogosso?' (Have you eaten?)

Maciamo I really enjoy reading your comments, and arguments, but as soon as I read the weather comment I was wondering how you would cope with this sort of comment on a daily (not even just once a day, numerous times) basis?

It's the general opening sentence when seeing someone for the first time of the day, usually among friends and colleagues. Dont get me wrong, not everyone does it, but it is common, and many peope do it. Likewise I guess with the weather questions.

When working in a japanese company, if we saw people for the first time of the day we would always say 'Ohayou gozaimasu' even if it was pitch black outside. Yet, we expected it, and all were guilty of saying it.

Sorry that this is the only thing right at this moment that is interesting me, perhaps I will be more full of wisdom and wonder tomorrow.

Ma Cherie

Oct 8, 2005, 05:27

This is an interesting thread and I've keeping up with the comments made. I still can't get over that weather thing :mad: :clueless: Anyways, I was wondering, Maciamo has there ever, ever been a moment in which you've encountered a japanese person who has made the attempt to differentiate you from other Westners? Or better yet, how would you react? Would you be happy? Shocked beyond belief? Or possibly relieved? :relief: I wonder if you've gotten to the point where you feel like pulling your hair out. (kidding of course) :blush:

Gaijinian

Oct 8, 2005, 06:23

Maciamo, first page:It's more than many look genuinely surprised that after 2, 3 or 4 years in Japan I can speak Japanese at a reasonable level,
The most PRICELESS look is the look of the Japanese tourists faces when I talk to them. My Japanese is pretty good, and it shocks them to see some white kid, only 15, speaking the "バーリ　ディフィコルト" Japanese language.

It kills me that the are surprised that "out-side people" can speak Japanese after being there for several years. 日本で日本語が使われる家に生まれ育っていても、なぜか日本語が喋れると、日本人がビックリさせるヨ! :okashii:

EDIT: I just hosted a kid for a week, and we had talked is straight Japanese for several days. He saw Star Bucks and told me あっ、日本にもあるよ。Then as if asking a question, he said, コービショップ？ To which I said, "Yes, Coffee Shop は喫茶店。”

I don't know why, but me knowing "kissaten" was a shock ( :-) ), and he replied, 日本語うまいよ... By the WAY, no Japanese person has EVER told me that...
Why after all are converastion "kissaten" triggered that reaction, I'm not quite sure...
___
I think I may know why Japanese think so lowly of "gaijin."
We have already established that in Japan, gaijin=amerikajin, for the most part; in general, let's face it, the "American Attitude" is 'Every one speaks English, why learn another language?' (Americans annoy me... :blush: ... says the American)

Maybe that is why they are THAT shocked that we 鬼畜米兵 can speak the language of the kamikaze (plus, Japanese is after all, the most difficult language of them all {