How does service in Japan compare with Western countries ?

[Pierrot le Fou]

I disagree about the value of service in Japan versus other countries, actually. I thought when I first got here how swell it was in general, and assumed it was because of the work ethic. I think it's more because of the amount of 'fluff' jobs in the service sector, not the value of each individual employee.

For instance, take a video store. In the US if I couldn't find a video, I could go to the counter of the most podunk store, and they could show me where it was quickly. They'd do a quick check to see if it was rented out, and if not, whisk me to the section. Without fail, there has ALWAYS been at least one person in a store who could do that -- either there are multiple employees and the person who knows shows me while the trainee staffs the register, or the sole employee is working in a small business and knows the store back to front.

In Japan, I go to my local Tsutaya, ask where a video is, they check on the computer, and then run off and browse the shelves just like I was doing before deciding to ask someone for help and then ask me questions like, "Which section do you think it would be in?" or nonsense like that. While they certainly top their American counterparts for politeness, they don't get the job done quicker or better. While that's great for tourists who truly appreciate great polite service for a while, the added time really starts to chip into your days when you go about you errands on a daily basis.

Another example would be ordering pizza over the telephone. They have a 30 second shpiel thanking you for calling, regardless of whether the phones are ringing off the hook and there's a 2 hour wait or not. You then have to go through your details (name, address, phone number) every time, even if it's already in your computer. Then you have to order, they double-check each segment, then double-check your order at the end. I call up knowing exactly what I want and it STILL takes 3 minutes.

Same thing with cashiers at the supermarket -- there will be a line of 20 people waiting, and the cashier takes her jolly sweet time with the niceties of each transaction, despite the fact that it slows everyone else down.

You need to wait in the video store line to return a movie, and then wait while they make sure it isn't overdue. Yet if you drop it off at night -- no problem! It's just a time waster, especially when all 3 cashiers are doing CDs, or new memberships, and you just want to drop off your video.

It's great that individual service is wonderful. Honestly. But when it comes to daily things, the novelty wears off quickly, and I'd rather efficiency then a train of Keigo before my day can progress.

The dedication isn't to the customer, and what the customer wants, it's to a manual which specifies the exact way to interact with customers. As a foreigner, sometimes we throw the whole thing off. For instance, when I first got to this country, I couldn't understand keigo well at all, so when asking for directions from a JR station attendant, I'd ask if she could please explain it in non-keigo Japanese, and she couldn't -- against the rules and all, screw what the customer actually needs!

The service is 建前【たてまえ】 (tatemae) rather than honest service. And while, again, the appearance is of dedication to the job and position, it's really just going through the motions without the heart behind it. In Japan, those fake smiles are so groomed. While it's nicer than a depressed teenager filled with angst ringing up your supermarket purchase, it still doesn't qualify as 'good service' in my mind.

I think of things like waiters in restaurants. In Japan, across the board, they are all polite. I have only gotten truly horrendous service once or twice while here. In the US or Europe, I have gotten some REALLY poor service, but on the flipside, the good service is TREMENDOUS! It makes a huge difference to the atmosphere of a restaurant, and I find myself going back to places with great service, even if the food isn't better than a comparable place with poor service.

I think of Japan as a middle-ground, where things are generally above average in quality, but the truly exceptional is very hard to find. It's like Japanese food -- the differences between good sushi and bad sushi are subtle, when you compare it to a cheap steak and a prime cut of filet mignon.

So the dedication, too, I think is feigned. And it's feigned well, but I'll settle for truly great service and being able to choose it, rather than across the board good service, without much variation.

[GaijinPunch]

For instance, take a video store. In the US if I couldn't find a video, I could go to the counter of the most podunk store, and they could show me where it was quickly. They'd do a quick check to see if it was rented out, and if not, whisk me to the section.

Right, but I regularly go to retail, and I'm the one that sasy "hello" and "thanks" to the person at the register. That, my friend, is backwards. In Japan, even if it's copmletely insincere, I'll always get an "irashaimase". I think in the states (mainland) it's a mixed bag. There are places with good service, and some places with bad. Hawaii leans more towards the bad. Japan's is pretty static. The serivce you get is almost the same everywhere.

In Japan, I go to my local Tsutaya, ask where a video is, they check on the computer, and then run off and browse the shelves just like I was doing before deciding to ask someone for help and then ask me questions like

Odd. They usually drop what they're doing right there and guide me to the video in question.

You then have to go through your details (name, address, phone number) every time, even if it's already in your computer.

Where are you ordering pizza from? As a VIP of the Domino's in Ikejiri for a good 2 or 3 years, I can tell you that that is not the norm. I call, get about 5 second spiel, then they ask my phone number. I tell them, and they confirm my address (which is the way Dominos and most pizza joiints do it across the board).

I see your point, and in fact, I would've agreed with you to an extent about 2-3 years into my stay. Then you come back to the US (or at least halfway) and have to beg to get any help. My one complaint I stuck with was at Tokyuu Hands. They had 2 maybe 3 old oyaji working each floor, with about 200 customers. I was at Home Depot yesterday. The section I was in had one other customer, but the guy working the floor was nowhere to be found. Then again, people are famous for being lazy here.

[Maciamo]

In Japan, I go to my local Tsutaya, ask where a video is, they check on the computer, and then run off and browse the shelves just like I was doing before deciding to ask someone for help and then ask me questions like, "Which section do you think it would be in?" or nonsense like that. While they certainly top their American counterparts for politeness, they don't get the job done quicker or better. While that's great for tourists who truly appreciate great polite service for a while, the added time really starts to chip into your days when you go about you errands on a daily basis.

I agree. I have had similar experiences. While it is true that Japanese service is almost always polite, their competence in their job, especially the part-time type like video shops, restaurants, combinis, etc. often leaves a lo to be desired. It happened to me a few times to go to a combini and ask to use the fax machine and the staff had no idea how to operate it. Once, I said I wanted to send a fax abroad in a FamilyMart and was told that it was not possible, that it only worked inside Japan. Yet, I had sent a fax abroad from the same combini a few weeks before. I just walked out and went to the next combini.

When my sister (who is a vegetarian) came to Japan, we asked a some restaurants or fast-food places whether we could have a dish without the meat. Some did it without problems, but other just replied it was not possible because it was not in the rules or something to that effect. In an ome-rice chain, we were even told that the chef could but didn't want to serve an ome-rice without bacon, as it wouldn't taste as good and he didn't want to serve something that is not good. Remember that it was just a (fast-food) chain ! (this one actually (http://www.pomunoki.com/)) Talk about customer service !


Another example would be ordering pizza over the telephone. They have a 30 second shpiel thanking you for calling, regardless of whether the phones are ringing off the hook and there's a 2 hour wait or not. You then have to go through your details (name, address, phone number) every time, even if it's already in your computer. Then you have to order, they double-check each segment, then double-check your order at the end. I call up knowing exactly what I want and it STILL takes 3 minutes.

I have only ordered pizze from Pizza-la, and it was indeed like that.


As a foreigner, sometimes we throw the whole thing off. For instance, when I first got to this country, I couldn't understand keigo well at all, so when asking for directions from a JR station attendant, I'd ask if she could please explain it in non-keigo Japanese, and she couldn't -- against the rules and all, screw what the customer actually needs!

Don't ever ask a Japanese employee to do something that is against the rules ! :relief: They'd rather apologise one thousand times in keigo, like perfect little robots, than do something that is not in the book. They have no initiative and reject responsibilities. That's probably due to a lack of critical thinking. This also shows the limits of the quality of service in Japan. It's all very superficial. There is nothing more annoying that hearing bored and automated "Irasshaimase" every time you pass in front of a combini, supermarket or fast-food restaurant staff.

It really gets on my nerves when the same person tells me 3 or 4 times that same "Irasshaimase" within a few minutes, as if they cared so little about your presence that they had already forgotten that they had just greeted you. As a clearly distinguishible Westerner, that's all the more surprising. I was told that the "irasshaimase" in shops really meant "I am watching you" and is a way to prevent thefts. That's probably true as I can't believe that anyone with a sound mind would repeat incessantly the same greeting to the same person in just a few minutes' time. If that is the truth behind the overflowing Japanese politeness, then it is not only superficial and hypocritcial, it is downright unpleasant.

[DoctorP]

Wow, Maciamo has found his soulmate...too bad you are already married! :p


Well, I will admit that many of your complaints are valid, and I have run into some of the same problems as you...the difference is that I made suggestions to the management, and they seem to have enjoyed it and decided to change the way that business was done.

The video store. I have used the bigger chain stores, but I find the neighborhood video stores more personable. I became quite frustrated with the return policy...having to wait. Then I suggested a drop box...at first they were against it, but I explained that this frees up the employees to do other things and makes things much easier for the customer. I even demonstrated with the manager by playing the employee and having her walk up to return the video...she changed things the next day!
As for finding videos? I think the reason that you find this easier in the States is because we are full of mindless fools that do nothing but watch movies and TV. I'm not positive, but are DVD's so popular anywhere else in the world...to the point where people own hundreds of movies just so that they can watch reruns of the same videos over and over instead of doing something creative with their time? (No offense Jeff!) I mean, I understand buying a movie that was just spectacular, or maybe a classic, but in the US people buy a DVD just because it came out on Tuesday and they wanted to be the 1st on their block to own it (for $19.95 no doubt). Only to see the same DVD in a yard sale 6 months later for $3! (excellent return on your investment!)

I will not comment on the pizza places since I rarely eat pizza out. (I can make a better pizza at home and usually cheaper!)

Tonight I had a pleasurable experience at a combini. As I payed for my purchase the attendant asked me (in broken English) what he should say when people enter or exit the store. I proceeded to give him a quick lesson. He was very appreciative, as this is a new store (Hot Spar) and is in a location to attract a lot of business from Westerners (mainly Americans).

I have to stop this post now...I realize it is being cut short, but I will have to finish later. :relief:

[senseiman]

For instance, take a video store. In the US if I couldn't find a video, I could go to the counter of the most podunk store, and they could show me where it was quickly. They'd do a quick check to see if it was rented out, and if not, whisk me to the section. Without fail, there has ALWAYS been at least one person in a store who could do that -- either there are multiple employees and the person who knows shows me while the trainee staffs the register, or the sole employee is working in a small business and knows the store back to front.

In Japan, I go to my local Tsutaya, ask where a video is, they check on the computer, and then run off and browse the shelves just like I was doing before deciding to ask someone for help and then ask me questions like, "Which section do you think it would be in?" or nonsense like that. While they certainly top their American counterparts for politeness, they don't get the job done quicker or better. While that's great for tourists who truly appreciate great polite service for a while, the added time really starts to chip into your days when you go about you errands on a daily basis.

I have to disagree with this for a number of obvious reasons. For one thing Tsutaya is a massive chain that hires part timers for minimum wage, so obviously you can't expect them to have a huge amount of knowledge. You go to a Blockbuster or wherever in the states and you'll find the same thing. Go to a small privately owned video shop in Japan and you'll find people with the more knowledge because they are in more close contact with the merchandise. You also have to consider that, if you were renting an English language movie, that section only represents a small amount of their actual business. The anime, Japanese film, adult film and CD rental sections probably represent 80 or 90% of their stock -which depending on the location can be quite large. Asking them for some obscure foreign film that even you can't find and then using their inability to instantly find it for you as a basis for criticizing the entire work ethic of the Japanese is just incredibly lame.

Another example would be ordering pizza over the telephone. They have a 30 second shpiel thanking you for calling, regardless of whether the phones are ringing off the hook and there's a 2 hour wait or not. You then have to go through your details (name, address, phone number) every time, even if it's already in your computer. Then you have to order, they double-check each segment, then double-check your order at the end. I call up knowing exactly what I want and it STILL takes 3 minutes.

Don't know where you've been ordering pizza, but in my time there I ordered a fair bit from a fair number of places and never had any problem with the way they handled it. The greetings were never anywhere near 30 seconds. And yes, they double check your info and order which maybe takes 30 seconds. And you know what? I never had my order screwed up in Japan, whereas in Canada (and I'm sure in the states too) it gets screwed up all the time. I also never had a 2 hour wait for pizza, maybe 45 minutes was the longest I ever had to wait.

Same thing with cashiers at the supermarket -- there will be a line of 20 people waiting, and the cashier takes her jolly sweet time with the niceties of each transaction, despite the fact that it slows everyone else down.

Again, I don't know where you've been doing your shopping but this was never a problem for me. They might have made a greeting and said thank you, which probably added a fraction of a second to the transaction, but its stretching things a huge amount to say that this "slows everyone down."

You need to wait in the video store line to return a movie, and then wait while they make sure it isn't overdue. Yet if you drop it off at night -- no problem! It's just a time waster, especially when all 3 cashiers are doing CDs, or new memberships, and you just want to drop off your video.

I never understood why they make people do that either, but it seems like an incredibly minor thing to be making an issue of.


The dedication isn't to the customer, and what the customer wants, it's to a manual which specifies the exact way to interact with customers. As a foreigner, sometimes we throw the whole thing off. For instance, when I first got to this country, I couldn't understand keigo well at all, so when asking for directions from a JR station attendant, I'd ask if she could please explain it in non-keigo Japanese, and she couldn't -- against the rules and all, screw what the customer actually needs!

Have you never worked in the service industry? Get any service related job with a big company in the states and 9 times out of 10 they'll have a manual with exact words for you to use in any given situation. I remember as a teenager working for a Shell station and getting ripped by my boss whenever I deviated ever so slightly from the script (ie saying "would you like anything else?" Instead of "Would you like any oil or lottery tickets?"). That isn't some sort of unique Japanese phenomenah you know.

And how the hell do you know that it was because of some rules that the JR employee couldn't give you directions? Maybe she just couldn't understand your broken Japanese, or perhaps you were asking her to do something she was uncomfortable with and she simply didn't want to be rude. Why do you have to interpret that in the least favorable light?

The service is 建前【たてまえ】 (tatemae) rather than honest service. And while, again, the appearance is of dedication to the job and position, it's really just going through the motions without the heart behind it. In Japan, those fake smiles are so groomed.

What and the smile I get from the kid at a Burger King in Seattle is somehow more real and sincere? What planet are you from that you think fake smiles are a Japanese thing?


I think of things like waiters in restaurants. In Japan, across the board, they are all polite. I have only gotten truly horrendous service once or twice while here. In the US or Europe, I have gotten some REALLY poor service, but on the flipside, the good service is TREMENDOUS! It makes a huge difference to the atmosphere of a restaurant, and I find myself going back to places with great service, even if the food isn't better than a comparable place with poor service.

Ever occur to you that the western custom of tipping servers, giving them a financial incentive to provide tremendous service, is the explanation for the difference rather than some sort of Japanese ethical deficiency? To me the fact that the Japanese staff work their asses off and give me fake smiles knowing that it won't make them any more money is a GOOD aspect of their character, as opposed to Western servers who do so for more or less greedy reasons rather than a devotion to their work.

I think of Japan as a middle-ground, where things are generally above average in quality, but the truly exceptional is very hard to find. It's like Japanese food -- the differences between good sushi and bad sushi are subtle, when you compare it to a cheap steak and a prime cut of filet mignon.

Spoken like someone who obviously wouldn't know a good plate of sushi if it hit him in the face.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I have to disagree with this for a number of obvious reasons. For one thing Tsutaya is a massive chain that hires part timers for minimum wage, so obviously you can't expect them to have a huge amount of knowledge. You go to a Blockbuster or wherever in the states and you'll find the same thing. Go to a small privately owned video shop in Japan and you'll find people with the more knowledge because they are in more close contact with the merchandise. You also have to consider that, if you were renting an English language movie, that section only represents a small amount of their actual business. The anime, Japanese film, adult film and CD rental sections probably represent 80 or 90% of their stock -which depending on the location can be quite large. Asking them for some obscure foreign film that even you can't find and then using their inability to instantly find it for you as a basis for criticizing the entire work ethic of the Japanese is just incredibly lame.

Whether it was blockbuster, Hollywood video, or my local video store in the states (Boston), the job was neither minimum wage, nor did I ever have trouble finding a video. I had no trouble finding a relatively artsy film like 'Croupier' even in Hollywood video. Perhaps I'm just lucky?

In Japan, in Kyoto where I live, video employees do not make minimum wage (they make 700-800 yen an hour to start according to the help wanted posters, depending on the hours they work). Furthermore, considering that there are 30 foreigners living in a Nova apartment right across from the Tsutaya, there are certainly plenty of people getting English videos as English stickers. The English video section is also the most frequented portion of the videos (the CDs are marginally more popular).

But again, perhaps I'm just unlucky there. Perhaps in this magical world of Japan I have managed to hit the most incompetent workers when I need help, when in the US I've just gotten immensely lucky. I suppose it is possible. But over a length of time (2.5 years here, 22 in the US), I would think that the law of averages would dictate that my 'luck' would average out. Anything's possible of course, but...

Don't know where you've been ordering pizza, but in my time there I ordered a fair bit from a fair number of places and never had any problem with the way they handled it. The greetings were never anywhere near 30 seconds. And yes, they double check your info and order which maybe takes 30 seconds. And you know what? I never had my order screwed up in Japan, whereas in Canada (and I'm sure in the states too) it gets screwed up all the time. I also never had a 2 hour wait for pizza, maybe 45 minutes was the longest I ever had to wait.

Same experience with Pizza Hut, Dominos, AND Chicago Pizza. I've tried telling them that my name should be enough, and that works with one employee at my local Pizza Hut, but otherwise falls flat and I have to tell them my address anyway.

I have also been told that the wait on Pizza was 2 hours before on a busy night.

denwa arigato gozaimasu, pizza hatto no <town name> ten de gozaimasu, <worker's name> to moushimasu. Denwa bango, go juusho to onamae onegai itashimasu.

Yes, 30 seconds is an exaggeration, but filling in those details takes time, then ordering takes time, and they do repeat everything after I say it, then repeat it all at the end.

Then we have the coupon shpiel, the discussion of the total, the asking if there's anything 'ijoo' if the wait is 'yoroshiidesuka' followed by the goodbye talk. It takes over 2 minutes on average to order a single pizza without custom toppings or anything.

Again, I don't know where you've been doing your shopping but this was never a problem for me. They might have made a greeting and said thank you, which probably added a fraction of a second to the transaction, but its stretching things a huge amount to say that this "slows everyone down."

Please, come to my local izumiya. There will be people standing selling 'my basket's at a counter with nobody there, while 2 registers are closed, and the entire front of the store is filled with people in lines for the registers. Rather than trying to go quickly through the line, they will still announce individual prices for items, ask people if they need extra bags, and a slew of other nonsense rather than just trying to get to the next person in line. It does slow people down.

I never understood why they make people do that either, but it seems like an incredibly minor thing to be making an issue of.

Every one of these complaints is 'minor' in the sense that they aren't going to kill me, but are annoyances. When people try to claim the superiority of the Japanese service industry, I complain about things like this, because despite being 'minor' they are valid complaints that I have that I didn't in the US. If we were to toss out every 'minor' complaint, then living in any country would be more or less equivalent unless ruled with an iron fist by draconian laws and a dictator.

Have you never worked in the service industry? Get any service related job with a big company in the states and 9 times out of 10 they'll have a manual with exact words for you to use in any given situation. I remember as a teenager working for a Shell station and getting ripped by my boss whenever I deviated ever so slightly from the script (ie saying "would you like anything else?" Instead of "Would you like any oil or lottery tickets?"). That isn't some sort of unique Japanese phenomenah you know.

Yes. I worked in a coffee shop for 6 years thanks. And if manuals were followed as strictly as they are in Japan, I would hear the same shpiel in every Starbucks worldwide, and would get the same dumbfounded looks when I ordered a 'medium' coffee in the US.

Here I go into a starbucks, order a 'medium' coffee, and they ask me if I want a 'grande' which is the medium, I say yes, and then they confirm by asking me if I want a grande 'm-size' coffee. Irony being that's what I asked for in the first place.

It ain't uniquely Japanese to have a script, but it is quite Japanese to defer to the script regardless of customer desires.

And how the hell do you know that it was because of some rules that the JR employee couldn't give you directions? Maybe she just couldn't understand your broken Japanese, or perhaps you were asking her to do something she was uncomfortable with and she simply didn't want to be rude. Why do you have to interpret that in the least favorable light?

Because it has happened far more than once to me. And it wasn't a matter of 'broken Japanese' as I managed to get her to give the instructions in keigo just fine, it was a matter of not getting her to give them in a way I could understand them properly. I interpret it in the 'least favorable' light (which isn't even least favorable -- I could have assumed she was rude, after all), because it's the most likely explanation. It certainly isn't that she was incapable of speaking standard Japanese after all...

What and the smile I get from the kid at a Burger King in Seattle is somehow more real and sincere? What planet are you from that you think fake smiles are a Japanese thing?

No, you're right, it isn't any more 'real,' but it also hasn't been the focus of coaching and special practice, and as much of a scripted part of the transaction as everything else. Most kids at Burger King don't smile, so if one does, even as a nicety, that makes it more sincere to me because it's a personal choice.

Ever occur to you that the western custom of tipping servers, giving them a financial incentive to provide tremendous service, is the explanation for the difference rather than some sort of Japanese ethical deficiency? To me the fact that the Japanese staff work their asses off and give me fake smiles knowing that it won't make them any more money is a GOOD aspect of their character, as opposed to Western servers who do so for more or less greedy reasons rather than a devotion to their work.

Yes, I'm sure that has something to do with it. But if Japanese service was truly going to work their asses off without tips, then tips wouldn't be able to make the service better, now would it? How good is the service if they don't excel at their jobs without that extra financial incentive? The flipside to not receiving tips is that there is no penalty for half-assing their politeness either, as that won't reduce their take on the day at all.

The people in the service industry I know here love the idea of tips, and really think it would be great to have in Japan because of the amount of mediocre service you can get here.

Spoken like someone who obviously wouldn't know a good plate of sushi if it hit him in the face.

Quite the assumption.

[Elizabeth]

For instance, when I first got to this country, I couldn't understand keigo well at all, so when asking for directions from a JR station attendant, I'd ask if she could please explain it in non-keigo Japanese, and she couldn't -- against the rules and all, screw what the customer actually needs!
I can't speak for Japanese speakers, but I've never used honorific speech with a JR attendant, or even had it suggested that it was more appropriate, and never received a response in anything but "desu, masu" level standard Japanese.

[senseiman]

Whether it was blockbuster, Hollywood video, or my local video store in the states (Boston), the job was neither minimum wage, nor did I ever have trouble finding a video. I had no trouble finding a relatively artsy film like 'Croupier' even in Hollywood video. Perhaps I'm just lucky?

In Japan, in Kyoto where I live, video employees do not make minimum wage (they make 700-800 yen an hour to start according to the help wanted posters, depending on the hours they work). Furthermore, considering that there are 30 foreigners living in a Nova apartment right across from the Tsutaya, there are certainly plenty of people getting English videos as English stickers. The English video section is also the most frequented portion of the videos (the CDs are marginally more popular).

If I'm not mistaken the minimum wage in Japan IS in the 700-800 yen per hour wage so they are in fact minimum wage earners. Most video chains in Canada (which are the same as in the states) also pay their new employees minimum wage or something very close to it. The bottom line is that these people (in Japan and America) aren't 'professionals', they are cheap expendable labor and very few of them give a crap about their jobs and its really hard to blame them.

Its a pretty big stretch to say that because there are a few NOVA employees living next door the Tsutaya employees should know about English videos. I currently live in a section of Winnipeg that has a lot of Chinese immigrants but I would hardly expect the local Blockbuster employees to know anything about Chinese films just because of that.

But again, perhaps I'm just unlucky there. Perhaps in this magical world of Japan I have managed to hit the most incompetent workers when I need help, when in the US I've just gotten immensely lucky. I suppose it is possible. But over a length of time (2.5 years here, 22 in the US), I would think that the law of averages would dictate that my 'luck' would average out. Anything's possible of course, but...

Perhaps your standards are unreasonably high. I spent over five years in Japan and cannot think of a single occasion on which I had cause to complain about any service I recieved at a store or restaurant.




denwa arigato gozaimasu, pizza hatto no <town name> ten de gozaimasu, <worker's name> to moushimasu. Denwa bango, go juusho to onamae onegai itashimasu.

"Hello, Dominoe's pizza, how can I help you? Uh-Huh. Can I have your name and phone number please? Are you still at-----? OK, OK, OK. Would you like anything to drink with that? I see, will that be everything then? It'll be there in about 30 minutes, thank you very much!"

This is roughly what was said to me last week when I ordered pizza, sounds like pretty much the exact same thing. Besides, even if it does take longer what is the big deal? It takes 2 minutes instead of 1 minute and 30 seconds to place an order? It may (though I do not at all believe it does) result in some inefficiencies for the pizza place, but I don't see any remotely conceivable way in which taking a few seconds to be polite and accurate on the phone inconveniences the customer.



Please, come to my local izumiya. There will be people standing selling 'my basket's at a counter with nobody there, while 2 registers are closed, and the entire front of the store is filled with people in lines for the registers. Rather than trying to go quickly through the line, they will still announce individual prices for items, ask people if they need extra bags, and a slew of other nonsense rather than just trying to get to the next person in line. It does slow people down.

That might be a problem with your local Izumiya. I shopped at a lot of big supermarkets (Daiei, MaxValue, Jusco, Seibu, Co-op etc etc.) and found them to be no less efficient at getting me through the check out than the Superstore or Safeway here in Winnipeg are.



Every one of these complaints is 'minor' in the sense that they aren't going to kill me, but are annoyances. When people try to claim the superiority of the Japanese service industry, I complain about things like this, because despite being 'minor' they are valid complaints that I have that I didn't in the US. If we were to toss out every 'minor' complaint, then living in any country would be more or less equivalent unless ruled with an iron fist by draconian laws and a dictator.

I wouldn't argue that Japanese service is superior to everyone else. But I would say that pretty much all the complaints you've made against Japanese service here are either equally applicable to service found elsewhere or just too pitifully insignificant to warrant mentioning.



Yes. I worked in a coffee shop for 6 years thanks. And if manuals were followed as strictly as they are in Japan, I would hear the same shpiel in every Starbucks worldwide, and would get the same dumbfounded looks when I ordered a 'medium' coffee in the US.

Here I go into a starbucks, order a 'medium' coffee, and they ask me if I want a 'grande' which is the medium, I say yes, and then they confirm by asking me if I want a grande 'm-size' coffee. Irony being that's what I asked for in the first place.

I don't go to Starbuck's, but what you've described sounds like what has happened to me in dozens of chain stores in North America. And there are plenty of Japanese stores and restaurants, including some chains, that buck that trend. Ever been to Freshness Burger?

It ain't uniquely Japanese to have a script, but it is quite Japanese to defer to the script regardless of customer desires.

I just don't see it. Perhaps the employees might hesitate a bit because they are less used to recieving special requests, but once they understand what you are asking for I found most servers in Japan to be quite willing to comply with my requests even if they fell outside the usual paramaters. Not always, but usually.



Because it has happened far more than once to me. And it wasn't a matter of 'broken Japanese' as I managed to get her to give the instructions in keigo just fine, it was a matter of not getting her to give them in a way I could understand them properly. I interpret it in the 'least favorable' light (which isn't even least favorable -- I could have assumed she was rude, after all), because it's the most likely explanation. It certainly isn't that she was incapable of speaking standard Japanese after all...

Well I've never had any problem with JR people. And you have to remember that Keigo IS a part of standard Japanese. It seems to me far more likely that she was having difficulty understanding the linguistic implications of your request than just stubbornly insisting on following official JR protocol. When I used to watch new English teachers in Japan speaking to students I would be surprised at the complicated grammatical structures they would use with low level students. It generally takes a couple months for newbies to learn to 'dumb down' their English to make it understandable to low level students, despite the fact that they have been told repeatedly not to use difficult grammar. You seem to assume that people have an inherent knowledge of the aspects of their language which non-native speakers find difficult. Even if you are saying "don't use Keigo" it is very unlikely that it would just "click" with most people what the problem was and they would instantly start speaking in simplified (which in this case also has the double aspect of being considered rude to use when speaking to a customer) Japanese that you can understand.



No, you're right, it isn't any more 'real,' but it also hasn't been the focus of coaching and special practice, and as much of a scripted part of the transaction as everything else. Most kids at Burger King don't smile, so if one does, even as a nicety, that makes it more sincere to me because it's a personal choice.

Are you sure you aren't just looking for things to complain about here? This just sounds like the weakest complaint I've ever heard, you actually want them to frown more because at least it would be authentic? Give them a break!!!






Quite the assumption.

No sushi afficionada would ever say that there was barely any difference between bad and good sushi.

[Maciamo]

Wow, Maciamo has found his soulmate...too bad you are already married! :p

I am not gay in the first place. :okashii:


I will not comment on the pizza places since I rarely eat pizza out. (I can make a better pizza at home and usually cheaper!)

Do you actually have a coal-fired brick pizza oven at home ? :eek:

He was very appreciative, as this is a new store (Hot Spar) and is in a location to attract a lot of business from Westerners (mainly Americans).

When I saw the name "Spar", I immediately thought of the Dutch company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPAR). I checked it on the web, and indeed Super Hot Hot Spar (http://www.hotsparcvs.co.jp/main.html) :giggle: seems to be a Japanese subsidiary.

[Maciamo]

You also have to consider that, if you were renting an English language movie, that section only represents a small amount of their actual business. The anime, Japanese film, adult film and CD rental sections probably represent 80 or 90% of their stock

The video shops where I've been in Tokyo had about 1/3 of anime and Japanese movies, 1/3 of Hollywood (and a few European) movies, and 1/3 of adult. I mostly rented movies in my first 2 years in Japan, but I also experienced (e.g. at Bellwood) that the staff had no idea where the movies were, and were a bit at a loss when my wife or I asked if they had such or such movie (not where it was, but just if they had it). The guy had to call his supervisor to check on the computer ! How do they recruit people who can't make a simple search on on PC ?

And you know what? I never had my order screwed up in Japan, whereas in Canada (and I'm sure in the states too) it gets screwed up all the time. I also never had a 2 hour wait for pizza, maybe 45 minutes was the longest I ever had to wait.

I think there is no point arguing here. Each of us can only compare to what they have been used to where they have lived before. I wouldn't complain about the pizza, because I had never ordered a home-delivery pizza before coming to Japan. In Belgium for instance, Italian restaurants usually cater for all the take-aways (Pizza Hut has a hard time to stay in some countries), and people usually go directly to the local Pizzeria by car. So you never have to wait for even 45 min, it's cheaper, healthier and tastes better than in Japan. I was just confirming, as Pierrot le Fou said, that the Pizza-la staff confirm and reconfirmed the address and order, which took an unnecessarily long time.

Again, I don't know where you've been doing your shopping but this was never a problem for me. They might have made a greeting and said thank you, which probably added a fraction of a second to the transaction, but its stretching things a huge amount to say that this "slows everyone down."

At my local supermarket, it depends on the employee (so it's probably not an absolute rule), but some do say the name and price of every single item they scan. This is not even what slows things down. The bothering thing is how slow the Visa card machine is. Even my wife complains about it, after seeing how fast it is in Europe. In addition to the machine being slow, they have to sign and stamp their hanko on each of the 3 receipts !

Service can be quite different from one supermarket to the other though. In some (more upmarket ones) there is a second person that put your goods directly into the bags. But that's a rare case. At the place I usually go to, there are no trolleys/shopping carts, just plastic baskets, which customers place directly on the counter. The cashier then take each item and place it in another basket, because there is not enough space for putting them into bags at the counter itself. As they take great care to place each item properly in the other basket, and we still have to put them into plastic bags afterwards, it takes twice longer than the system I have been used to elsewhere.

So, I understand when Pierrot le Fou says that the Japanese want to give the image of working hard and being polite, but that makes it less efficient. I do not get more satisfaction as a customer because they name each item, then place it on another basket, then have to take out the card machine from under their counter because there is not enough space on it, then wait 10sec for the transaction, then 10 sec more for the staff to sign the 3 receipts. They do work more and do it with great care and diligence, but that's only wasted time and energy.

I guess it also depends on one's approach to time. I am the kind of person that intuitively thinks which ones of the cereals, milk carton, bowl and empty yoghurts I should take in each hand to be able to put them into the shelves/fridge/sink/bin so as to maximise my time, in accordance with the location of the shelves/fridge/sink/bin. So you can understand that the useless and time-consumming cashier routine described above annoys me.


Have you never worked in the service industry? Get any service related job with a big company in the states and 9 times out of 10 they'll have a manual with exact words for you to use in any given situation. I remember as a teenager working for a Shell station and getting ripped by my boss whenever I deviated ever so slightly from the script (ie saying "would you like anything else?" Instead of "Would you like any oil or lottery tickets?"). That isn't some sort of unique Japanese phenomenah you know.

Again, it depends where you come from. I have never heard someone repeat some manual phrases in Europe, except at US chains like McDonalds. So, it's mostly an American and Japanese phenomenon. Generally in Europe, if the staff of a non fast food restaurant treated you like that, nobody would come back there, because it's too "impersonal" and thus is not considered "good service".


Ever occur to you that the western custom of tipping servers, giving them a financial incentive to provide tremendous service, is the explanation for the difference rather than some sort of Japanese ethical deficiency?

Western custom of tipping ? I have never tipped someone except when I went to Hawaii 2 years ago because I had not (they insited that tips were not included, as I was used to in Europe). In fact, in most European countries, VAT (consumption tax) and service are both included in restaurants. At best you'd tip taxi drivers, but I never take the taxi, so I am not quite sure.

[senseiman]

I think there is no point arguing here. Each of us can only compare to what they have been used to where they have lived before.

This is sort of my point of view too. Not much sense in arguing about it. In my experience, not many of the arguments made here against Japanese service hold much water, nor can they be said to be indicative of some sort of social phenomenah unique (and problematic) to Japan.


Western custom of tipping ? I have never tipped someone except when I went to Hawaii 2 years ago because I had not (they insited that tips were not included, as I was used to in Europe). In fact, in most European countries, VAT (consumption tax) and service are both included in restaurants. At best you'd tip taxi drivers, but I never take the taxi, so I am not quite sure.

Right, north American servers, not western in general. My bad.

[Elizabeth]

Again, it depends where you come from. I have never heard someone repeat some manual phrases in Europe, except at US chains like McDonalds. So, it's mostly an American and Japanese phenomenon. Generally in Europe, if the staff of a non fast food restaurant treated you like that, nobody would come back there, because it's too "impersonal" and thus is not considered "good service".
Of course here in the US fast and efficient procedures are usually synonymous with "impersonal," (and at least the apparence of them in Japan, with a half smile) but in Europe you're saying non-conformist or quirky greetings tend to be the factor that gives an impression of "warmth" or "personability" and resonates the most with customers ?

The only serious service problem I've ever had in Japan was ordering a washibako in a Tokyo department store. After spending several minutes
going through and choosing a color and size specifications with the clerk in very clear and standard Japanese, I turned away to wait -- fully expecting my selection was being prepared. Much to my surprise, beginning to get restive at the delay, 15-20 minutes later I inquire again and almost unimaginably, she hasn't yet started but is waiting for ME to reconfirm the correctness of the piece we had already discussed and clarified multiple times over initially !!! Which of course I did and it was handled very expediently from that point to a beautiful "kajo hoso" wrapping.

In all likelihood that wasn't the real, or at least only, reason....it just struck me as odd since asking a customer to wait is a perfectly acceptable business request. :okashii:

[Pierrot le Fou]

Ah, senseiman. I was responding point-by-point, but thought better of it. I cannot win in an argument against someone who tells me first that I have no standards (not knowing good sushi if it jumped in my mouth) the breath before telling me that I have high standards (in regards to the service industry). You suggest that bad Japanese service doesn't exist in the same breath as stating that because they're paid such a low wage and don't care about their job, you can't really blame them for the job they do.

You seem to be of the belief that there are 'legitimate' gripes about Japan, and 'illegitimate' gripes about Japan. You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them. Fortunately, you aren't me, and I'm not you. We have different ideas of what is a pain in the arse and what's not. I find these things to be frustrating, as they are daily annoyances that take more effort to correct, then just bear and roll with. And it's frustrating when there are things that can only be fixed with more effort than it takes to endure them.

If it takes a one minute explanation to save myself thirty seconds of delay due to procedure, then I'm still losing 30 seconds over what I would usually lose, which is 30 seconds. Yes, it's worth it at stores I go to all the time which are small enough to have people remember me. Unfortunately that is a minority of the service workers I deal with daily.

I was referring to a simple comment with my original post on the service sector:
I'm not talking about the actual value of the work (or lack thereof) the average Japanese does at a job, but the dedication (even if it's b/c they have no choice) is much higher, and in customer-based businesses the service is leaps and bounds above anything here.
And I was pointing out places where I didn't believe that the service sector was leaps and bounds beyond what it is here. I was pointing out that the value of customer-based service just isn't as great as people comment on, with a slew of examples.

How this turned into you insulting my ability to communicate my desires in Japanese, well, that beats the Hell out of me.

Japanese service is not perfect. Full-stop.

The preceeding were examples of how it is not perfect. You can say that they're minor, or say that I have high standards, or throw any other insult my way for the sake of defending things that annoy me, yet it doesn't change the fact that these things do happen, and do annoy me, and no matter how minor show a side of the service industry that tourists and the like don't see. Annoying little daily holdups which make your life a little more frustrating.

And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, no matter how much you want to paint me as a freak for believing that it is actually possible to get bad customer service in Japan.

But as you said, they receive such low wages we can't blame them, right? But we can in other countries?

[deadhippo]

wow..reading this thread i can see that people are having lots of problems here
my life is a picnic compared to you guys
pizza hut already knows who i am when i call because of some caller recognition software
i tell them my name and they confirm my address
i did have some trouble getting extra bbq sauce for my chikichiki one day but they gave it to me
they always tell thisll be the last time though

as for videos service is good in the drop what they are doing and go get it section
occasionally they have to check the special promotion section

as for living here..i cant see why anybody would have trouble..except perhaps a vegetarian/vegan
it was as easy as pie and i had never lived in an asian country b4
in fact had only spent two days in bangkok as a stopover
had eaten sushi twice before i arrived

of course i have to admit, i did have some troubles but nothing to write home about
if you think living in japan in difficult youre soft


and btw there is no reason to swallow your pride unless its misplaced
i go home everynight with my soul intact and if my working environment doesnt allow that ill change it

[senseiman]

Ah, senseiman. I was responding point-by-point, but thought better of it. I cannot win in an argument against someone who tells me first that I have no standards (not knowing good sushi if it jumped in my mouth)

I never said you have no standards. You said there was little difference between good and bad sushi and I said that someone who knows good sushi would never say that. I think my comments may have come off harsher than I intended them to, sorry.

...before telling me that I have high standards (in regards to the service industry).

You are complaining about the most ridiculous things here (ie people not meaning it when they smile at you), so I think the facts back up my assertion, in so far as they have been presented here. There is no inconsistency with my remark about your taste in sushi.

You suggest that bad Japanese service doesn't exist in the same breath as stating that because they're paid such a low wage and don't care about their job, you can't really blame them for the job they do.

I never said bad Japanese service doesn't exist, I said that I have never had cause to complain myself, which is an objective fact. I have had bad service in Japan, but only in cases (ie fast food restaurants) where one expects bad service, therefore it really wouldn't have made much sense for me to complain. You on the other hand seem to have unreasonably high expectations of your Tsutaya employees, blasting them for not being able to quickly find the movie you could not find yourself. Even that really shouldn't count as bad service, as from your own account they went out of their way to try to help you, though they were apparently unsuccesful.

You seem to be of the belief that there are 'legitimate' gripes about Japan, and 'illegitimate' gripes about Japan.

Of course there are legitimate and illegitmate gripes about Japan, that isn't the issue.

You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them.

This is true and I'll tell you why. I used to make the exact same complaints (or similar complaints) during my first couple of years in Japan. I used to let stupid little things bother me simply because they weren't what I was used to back home. But after a while I realized I was letting these non-issues interfere with my enjoyment of life in Japan and I just learned to accept them. Japan is the way it is and there isn't much point in bitching about the small stuff because it isn't going to change. Instead of spending time analyzing all the little faults and trying to come up with over-arching theories about what these irritants said about Japanese society I realized it wasn't worth the bother and in fact was quite demeaning to Japanese people and I should just start concentrating on the things I like. I guaruntee you that if you spend another couple of years in Japan you will look back and wonder how you ever let this stuff bother you.

Fortunately, you aren't me, and I'm not you. We have different ideas of what is a pain in the arse and what's not. I find these things to be frustrating, as they are daily annoyances that take more effort to correct, then just bear and roll with. And it's frustrating when there are things that can only be fixed with more effort than it takes to endure them.

Its frustrating but it really doesn't need to be. Most of the things you've described sound like really trivial matters that you oughtn't let bother you. "When in Rome...."


And I was pointing out places where I didn't believe that the service sector was leaps and bounds beyond what it is here. I was pointing out that the value of customer-based service just isn't as great as people comment on, with a slew of examples.

This is probably true. The actual service you recieve isn't much different from other countries quality wise. The lack of smart ass clerks is a definite benefit though.

How this turned into you insulting my ability to communicate my desires in Japanese, well, that beats the Hell out of me.

I didn't mean to insult your Japanese, you said you couldn't understand Keigo so I assumed you weren't fluent. I used to have tons of problems making myself understood in Japanese...obviously I have no idea what your Japanese level is like so please don't take what I wrote the wrong way.

Japanese service is not perfect. Full-stop.

agreed.

The preceeding were examples of how it is not perfect. You can say that they're minor, or say that I have high standards, or throw any other insult my way for the sake of defending things that annoy me, yet it doesn't change the fact that these things do happen, and do annoy me, and no matter how minor show a side of the service industry that tourists and the like don't see. Annoying little daily holdups which make your life a little more frustrating.

Hey, please don't take what I wrote as an insult. I seem to have jumped in mid-conversation and not have appreciated the context in which you were making the comments. I just read your one post in which it seemed you were unfairly trashing the Japanese and their work ethic, so I thought I'd take you to task for it. But looking back over the whole thread I see that in the context your comments weren't really as harsh as I had originally thought them to be, so if I've come across as too aggressive I apologize.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I said that I didn't understand keigo when I first came here. I can hold a conversation about economics now if I feel the desire. I have very few problems expressing myself in Japanese at this point unless it uses specialized non-daily vocabulary which I haven't been exposed to yet (for instance, discussing post-modern philosophy, advanced mathematics, or excercise terms).

And the keigo I was referring to was sonkeigo and kenjogo, not just masu/desu forms of regular words. I have\had no problem with someone saying, "tabetekudasai," but I certainly had trouble understanding someone who said, "meshiagare!"

Furthermore, you're still being passive aggressive at the least with your intentional flummoxing of my name. 'fluffy hamster?' 'pierre la fou?' You're also being condescending and patronizing in suggesting that these things wouldn't bother me if I lived here another 2-3 years. The faulty assumption being that length of time determines tolerance, rather than tolerance determining length of time stayed.

Have you ever considered that perhaps people who can tolerate these things better are the people who end up staying 5-6 years? Have you ever pondered that perhaps the reason that I don't tolerate this stuff is not because I have only been here for 2 years, but rather beacuse I find these things annoying? It's incredibly obnoxious and codescending to make all the assumptions you're making based on your experience, and assuming that they pan out to the entirety of the population.

I love how you tell me "Of course there are legitimate and illegitmate gripes about Japan, that isn't the issue." right after having told me "You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them." is a true statement. That makes it about legitimate and illegitimate gripes if the issue you have is with my gripes not being legitimate. You're contradicting yourself AGAIN on the issue.

I am also of the opinion that you wouldn't know the difference between a kaiten-sushi chef and a master sushi chef's sushi were they given the same quality fish to work with. But I suppose we'll never get a chance to check, now will we?

I look forward to more pretentious rhetoric and intentionally mucking up my name in your response.

[Maciamo]

Of course there are legitimate and illegitmate gripes about Japan, that isn't the issue.

I think it's a matter of personal sensitivity. I understand both your side and Pierrot le Fou's side, and your argument is only based on not having the same background and sensitivities.

Japan is the way it is and there isn't much point in bitching about the small stuff because it isn't going to change. Instead of spending time analyzing all the little faults and trying to come up with over-arching theories about what these irritants said about Japanese society I realized it wasn't worth the bother and in fact was quite demeaning to Japanese people and I should just start concentrating on the things I like.

I think I understand very well Pierrot le Fou's comments, and if he thinks the way I do, then he is not really "bitching" about the system, but trying to disprove that "Japanese service is necessarily better" by finding examples of deficiencies. He is probably not very bothered by them. It's just irritating enough to be mentioned. But there is no country on earth where such small annoyances wouldn't happen, and I think he is trying to demonstrate that Japan is no exception. (am I right here, Pierrot le Fou ?)

Basically, you too have agreed with that, Senseiman, so there is no need for either of you to further this (personal) argument (and please stop changing people's usernames in your quotes, as I was wondering who fluffyhamster was).

[Pierrot le Fou]

Yes. GaijinPunch stated that the Japanese service sector gets more bang for the buck, and I explained why I didn't necessarily agree that their service sector was all that.

I manage to live my day to day life just dandy, despite those annoyances. Thankfully the joys of liquor keep me sane.

[pipokun]

as you know well, the fast growing market in the service sector here is for the rich. so don't worry about the top-end customer service too much.

[senseiman]

I said that I didn't understand keigo when I first came here. I can hold a conversation about economics now if I feel the desire. I have very few problems expressing myself in Japanese at this point unless it uses specialized non-daily vocabulary which I haven't been exposed to yet (for instance, discussing post-modern philosophy, advanced mathematics, or excercise terms).

And the keigo I was referring to was sonkeigo and kenjogo, not just masu/desu forms of regular words. I have\had no problem with someone saying, "tabetekudasai," but I certainly had trouble understanding someone who said, "meshiagare!"

Like I said, I have no idea what your Japanese level is and it honestly was not my intention to insult you. It isn't really at issue anyway, as all I was saying is that the JR employee couldn't reasonably be expected to instinctively be able to accomodate herself to your level of Japanese in the few moments your conversation must have lasted. Its just not something people are used to doing, and I only offered it up as a possible alternate explanation to your view that she did so out of a stubborn adherence to the rules.

Furthermore, you're still being passive aggressive at the least with your intentional flummoxing of my name. 'fluffy hamster?' 'pierre la fou?'

I'm not intentionally flumoxing your name (though I'll be careful to get it right from now on). To be honest after first glancing at it I somehow misread 'pierrot' as "Pierre". I later realized my mistake and added an 'O' to the end, though it isn't an easy name to spell and to be honest I just couldn't be bothered to go and check each time I typed it in. I didn't think it would cause any offence, though if it did I apologize. I accidentally called you 'fluffy hamster' because at the time I wrote the reply I was simultaneously having a conversation on Dave's ESL cafe with a poster named fluffy hamster and I got the two of you confused. It wasn't an intentional insult and I apologize for the confusion.

You're also being condescending and patronizing in suggesting that these things wouldn't bother me if I lived here another 2-3 years. The faulty assumption being that length of time determines tolerance, rather than tolerance determining length of time stayed.

I'm not trying to be patronizing or condescending here, I'm just telling you what my own experience was. If you look back at my older threads from 2002 or 2003 I was always bitching about Japan in one way or another. The last couple years of my stay though my views changed and I made peace with all of the little nuisances of life there. Now that I'm back in Canada and I miss Japan alot I can't help but think my nitpicking was just foolish. Maybe you will come to the same conclusion someday and maybe you won't, but it seems to be a near universal trend with the people I know.

Have you ever considered that perhaps people who can tolerate these things better are the people who end up staying 5-6 years? Have you ever pondered that perhaps the reason that I don't tolerate this stuff is not because I have only been here for 2 years, but rather beacuse I find these things annoying?

Like I said, I myself found similar things to be very annoying and irritating for at least the first three years of my stay. I'm not trying to act all high and mighty because I stayed in Japan for a long time (in fact you were the one who brought your length of stay into this thread, not me), I'm just saying that most people who stay for a long time somehow find a way to tune out all the little annoyances of daily life, for the simple reason that if they didn't they would go nuts.

It's incredibly obnoxious and codescending to make all the assumptions you're making based on your experience, and assuming that they pan out to the entirety of the population.

I'm not making generalizations about the entire population. I looked at your arguments, thought to myself "Gee, that reminds me of how I used to feel." and then said, to YOU (and not the entirety of the population) "I used to think the same way but after a while I changed my mind and I bet you will too". You have chosen to get all defensive and accuse me of condescension and you are certainly entitled to your opinion but I can only say that I wasn't trying to be rude and you shouldn't take what I've written as some sort of personal attack.

I love how you tell me "Of course there are legitimate and illegitmate gripes about Japan, that isn't the issue."

The existance of legitimate and illegitimate gripes clearly isn't the issue because it is self evident that they both exist. If I say "Japan sucks because it doesn't have any polar bears" that is clearly an illegitimate gripe because it is clearly unreasonable. The issue is where you draw the line between them, which is clearly a subjective matter and thus not much of an issue for debate anyway. But even that isn't what this is about because my main point isn't that your gripes are illegitimate, just that they are trivial and you shouldn't let them bother you. Trivial gripes can be legitimate, and a lot of yours are (though I disagree with your complaints about the Tsutaya employees being legitimate, at least based on what information you've given me), my main point however is that they arent worth the aggravation.


right after having told me "You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them." is a true statement. That makes it about legitimate and illegitimate gripes if the issue you have is with my gripes not being legitimate. You're contradicting yourself AGAIN on the issue.

Again, for reasons I outlined above there isn't any contradiction in what I've said. I agreed with your statement "..because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, its foolish of me to complain about them." not on the basis of your complaints being illegitimate, but on the basis of them being so trivial as to not be worth complaining about.

I am also of the opinion that you wouldn't know the difference between a kaiten-sushi chef and a master sushi chef's sushi were they given the same quality fish to work with. But I suppose we'll never get a chance to check, now will we?

No need to check, I fully cede the point. I have absolutely no taste in food, nor could I distinguish good from bad sushi except in the most obvious of cases. I am aware though that extreme differences do exist, and I just said you obviously don't know sushi because, as they say "it takes one to know one."

I look forward to more pretentious rhetoric and intentionally mucking up my name in your response.

Look, I'm not trying to give you a hard time I'm just trying to debate things here. I've apologized several times in this and my last post for any misunderstandings. It seems really strange to me that you would get all offended because I accidentally called you "Peter" instead of "Clown", which anyway you stretch it is not at all insulting. But I certainly do apologize for not having gotten it right in the first place.

As I said in my previous post I seem to have jumped into the conversation mid-stream and not understood the context within which you were making your complaints. If you are just arguing that Japanese service isn't without its faults then I wholeheartedly agree. I normally wouldn't make a point-by-point repsonse picking apart somebody's post on a topic like this, but the length of your post seemed to suggest you were looking to debate what you had written. I certainly didn't want anything I wrote to be taken as personally insulting, my comment about the sushi was meant to be taken tongue in cheek and my arguments about your complaints being ridiculous were predecated on my mistaken assumption that you held Japanese society in some sort of contempt, when in fact you were just saying that the service wasn't as good as some people argue it is. So please accept my humble apologies.

[DoctorP]

Tonight I had a pleasurable experience at a combini. As I payed for my purchase the attendant asked me (in broken English) what he should say when people enter or exit the store. I proceeded to give him a quick lesson. He was very appreciative, as this is a new store (Hot Spar) and is in a location to attract a lot of business from Westerners (mainly Americans).




Just a little update on this part of my last post.

Last night I returned to this same combini on my way into work. The same young man was working. I made my selections, went to the register, paid and as I was leaving he stated (quite clearly) "Thank you, please come again!". When I turned to look at him, I saw a very broad smile take over his face and I immediately voiced my approval and offered praise for how well he done...given that this entire exchange the night before lasted but 30-45 seconds.

Not really sure why I even posted this...maybe just to say all the little inconveniences can be obliterated by one truly honest gesture on both parts...don't you think? I mean with all the bitching that you do over these seemingly trivial things...have you really tried to do anything to correct them? One of Maciamo's biggest peeves seems to be when Japanese people address him with broken English. What is the big deal? If I had never tried to address people with broken Japanese, I would have never learned anything. That is one reason why...when I address them in Japanese, I really don't mind if they try to speak English. They usually still correct me if I make a mistake, as I do them...so I guess learning is occuring for both sides and everyone wins! :relief:

[misa.j]

This thread makes me think of something happened to my husband when he was in Japan.

He purchased a sound effect machine once, tried it on his guitar, but it wasn't compatible, so he took it back to the store on the next day. He told me not to help him because he wanted to handle it by himself, so I was just hanging around like another customer in the store.

The guy at the store didn't want to accept a return, so he just kept saying "Doushite henkyaku shitaino desuka?(Why do you want to return it?)" "Riyuu o benkyou shitaino desu.(I want to study the reason of returning.)"

My husband tried to explain that it didn't work for his guitar, but the clerk was so defensive that he was not listening to my husband. It was the same guy that my husband had bought the effect from on the day before, but he suspected that it wasn't bought at his store.

I didn't even help my husband because his Japanese was very good and clear, and after about 30 minutes the clerk finally agreed to accept the return.


It is rare to see a really good customer service anywhere, not only in Japan.
I still think it all depends on who you deal with, though.
Depends on how long they are in the industry, how well they are trained, what kind of computer system they have etc.

I work at a movie rental store for a fairly big chain in the US; I don't know about other companies, but our marketing strategy is "quantity than quality" right now since there are so many competitions, and it does work if you use it effectively withoug wasting the customers' time. I hear complaints about other stores, so not that it's good for everybody.

[Pierrot le Fou]

This seems to be far more than just about the Japanese service sector to you senseiman. After all, you've already agreed with what I was originally commenting about.

I think this is truly about the view of Japan by someone who enjoys life in Japan a great deal, and somebody who views it as another country with its nuiscances. No country is perfect in my mind, at least none of the ones I've visited, and each has a different set of problems. Life is not all giant problems, because most of life is just living day to day, doing your job, and running about doing absolutely mundane tasks.

So while this may not compete with some serious problems like hardcore racial profiling by the Japanese police or somesuch, these small problems weigh far more heavily on my stay because of the daily occurrences of it.

And guess what? I have a similar list of issues with the US, and would find one for any country I went to.

Japan has this annoying habit of being home to foreign residents who (to borrow someone else's analogy) view life here as a giant gameshow. Most of the people who haven't been here an exceedingly long time seem to want to 'flaunt' their ability to live here/their skills in regards to this country. I see little verbal jousts over whose job is better, whose Japanese is better, whose girlfriend is better, whose able to better deal with Japanese bureaucracy, or a slew of other garbage.

And part of that game is seeing who can best explain away the problems in Japan, or best ***** about them.

So because of this screwed up dichotomy and competition, it becomes exceedingly difficult to view little pokes at Japan, like the ones I made, as just that -- small nuiscances that are problems. They aren't illegitimate. Small problems on a daily basis are still small problems. If they can be changed, then there's no reason to keep my mouth shut about them. I'm not talking about moving Japan off a fault-line here, I'm just asking for Tsutaya employees to be trained a bit better, or for customer service to be more responsive to the customer (God forbid).

And yes, you're right, there are more problems of greater importance to the world out there, but quite frankly I'm not worried about revolutionizing foreign rights in Japan, because while I have seen discrimination, it is rarely directed at me, and I know better than to believe that I can change it when I don't even want to become a citizen here. So I focus on the little annoyances that happen every day that shouldn't be that hard to change. I focus on things that can be changed locally by talking to a few people, and express my frustration over things that are so easy to change but haven't been.

And yet you dismiss these complaints as illegitimate? And you expect me not to think that this is insulting?

You claim that you're not trying to look down your nose at me, or be insulting in any way, yet your entire premise -- that my complaints are insignificant -- are patently insulting.

"What you believe doesn't matter" is the message it sends. And that's not very friendly in my mind, no matter how far you try to backpedal on this.

Quite frankly, I don't care if you thought just like me when you got here -- because you aren't me. There are plenty of things that no longer bother me. When people come up and speak to me as a foreigner, I see that as an opportunity rather than an annoyance. When someone tries to speak to me in broken English, I no longer get irked about the nerve of them assuming I can't speak Japanese, and just take it in stride. I don't get frustrated half as easily about certain things that I cannot change.

What I do get frustrated about is the things that I can change and that haven't changed yet.

And whether I left tomorrow or in 10 years, I would still be trying to effect positive change where I could, because I don't believe that small problems that are actually possible to make an impact on are 'illegitimate' to complain about, bring up, or try to change. I don't think that a problem has to be of global importance to do something about it. I don't believe that someone else's agenda of complaints should be the only one that matters.

And the fact that you're indicating otherwise is exceedingly insulting to me, not just because you believe that the things I care about are insignifacant so much as you think that the view that these things are possible to change is a waste of breath.

This isn't about me saying Japan sucks because there are no polar bears. This is about me saying that Japan has some problems in the service industry that wouldn't take an act of God to fix. This is about pointing out problems in daily life that make life in Japan a little more frustrating for mid/long-time residents. This is about shared experiences in Japan which aren't positive, even if they aren't mind-blowingly negative 'God I hate Japan' moments.

You do realize that it is possible to criticize these small things about Japan without hating Japan, right? I complained plenty about my own country when I was there, but never had people believe that I hated America because I thought my income taxes were too high. So why is it that when I come to Japan and make a criticism of Tsutaya employees and I need to be told where to shove it, or told that my opinion doesn't matter because it isn't on an important issue?

Honestly, where do you get off telling me what a 'legitimate' gripe is and then pretending that you're not being condescending?

[Maciamo]

One of Maciamo's biggest peeves seems to be when Japanese people address him with broken English. What is the big deal?

It's not just a matter of broken English, just English. The difference between you and me is that I am not (like over 50% of all Caucasians) a native English speaker. It somehow hurts my "cultural" pride when they assume that I necessarily am an English speaker because I am Caucasian. I am sure that any non-Japanese Asian being addressed in Japanese while travelling abroad (except in Japan), or a Japanese being addressed in Chinese or Korean in a Western country would feel the same way. They would protest "I am not [nationality]", even if they can speak the language in which they are addressed. It's especially annoying when it happens all the time, not just once in a while. This is the case for me in Japan. Another reason to complain is that if their English level is really low, they should speak Japanese, as the language of the place where one is, is always the one that should be used in case of doubt.

If I had never tried to address people with broken Japanese, I would have never learned anything.

That's completely different. I don't mind a Japanese addressing me in broken or good English in an English speaking country (or even anywhere else but in Japan). It's a basic rule of politeness to address strangers in the local language if you can speak it (even if you do not speak it well), and only switch to another language if the other person does not understand you.

Maybe this "rule" is unknown of most Americans. It wouldn't surprise me as only 12% of the Americans can speak (fluently) a foreign language, as opposed to 53% in the EU, ranging from 30% in the UK to 99% in Luxembourg. (Sources :
Japan Times (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/makeprfy.pl5?eo20051016a1.htm) and Europa (http://europa.eu.int/abc/keyfigures/living_together/chatting/index_animated_en.htm))

Coming from a country with 3 official languages, divided by regions, I know that the most efficient and polite way to address a stranger is to use the official language of the place where I am at that time. If there is more than one official language (like in Brussels), then use the most common one or try to guess which one is more appropriate from the context/environment. The same happens in India, which has over 20 official languages and over 800 languages. Japan and the US are very monolingual cultures, and people tend to have less chances to interact with people speaking a different language. Let's hope that more frequent contact with foreigners and increased international experiences will help citizens of both countries to those fundamental rules of inter-cultural/linguistic communication.

[senseiman]

Pierrot la fou,

I've apologized I don't know how many times yet you seem stuck on being insulted by what I wrote no matter how many times I try to smooth things over. That is fine, you are fully entitled to carry a grudge against me and play the victim all you want but I want to make my position clear:

1) As I've said before I'm not arguing that your gripes are illegitimate I'm just saying they are trivial. You seem quite stuck in the belief that I am saying your complaints aren't legitimate no matter how many times I state otherwise so I'll just say it again to be absolutely clear: Your gripes are LEGITIMATE!! Objectively speaking the Tsutaya complaint the way you've described it does seem frivolous to me but I fully admit there might be more to it that I don't know. Anyway, you seem to admit they are trivial so what is the big deal?

2) As for the whole me being a pretentious dink or whatever you think I am, you can just piss off on that one. The way you described things seemed to me to be similar to the way I used to think, and having been in a similar situation to yours I thought I'd share my experiences with you. And somehow in your eyes this makes me a big jerk no matter how many times I apologize for having overstepped my bounds or whatever you think I did. You are different than me, I'm different than you, big frigging deal.


3) This seems to be far more than just about the Japanese service sector to you senseiman. After all, you've already agreed with what I was originally commenting about.

That is right. I've completely agreed with your point and apologized profusely for having offended you and explained that it was mostly due to a misunderstanding on my part. YOU are the one who has continued to make a big fuss out of all this by continuing to refuse to acknowledge my apologies and insist that I am just trying to demean you no matter how much I try to assure you to the contrary.

4) You do realize that it is possible to criticize these small things about Japan without hating Japan, right? I complained plenty about my own country when I was there, but never had people believe that I hated America because I thought my income taxes were too high. So why is it that when I come to Japan and make a criticism of Tsutaya employees and I need to be told where to shove it, or told that my opinion doesn't matter because it isn't on an important issue?

Where on earth are you getting this from? I never told you to "shove it", I've been pretty civil up to this point. Nor did I ever say your opinion doesn't matter, I just happen to DISAGREE with it. IMHO one shouldn't expect Tsutaya employees to know where every movie in the store is. You think they should. We have a disagreement! End of story! Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's, I'm not saying othewise. In my opinion it isn't worth getting aggravated over. You think it is. Fine.....

5) In general its not worth getting offended by what people write on these boards. This is meant as FRIENDLY ADVICE and not CONDESCENCION. I'm not going to apologize for insulting you anymore because not only have I NOT insulted you in the first place but it seems that nothing I say will heal your wounded pride. Get over it.

6) Enjoy the rest of your stay in Japan. I miss the place terribly and sort of envy you for being there.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I don't get it.

You say one thing, and then turn around and say the opposite, and then expect me to take what you said the second time to be what you actually meant to say, so that I should entirely disregard the first thing you said.

How the Hell am I supposed to manage to communicate with you when you can't say what you mean the first time such that a rational native English speaker can understand it?

You expect me to believe that this comment:
Maybe she just couldn't understand your broken Japanese
Shouldn't be interpreted as an affront to my Japanese skills.

You expect me to ignore that you said:
Spoken like someone who obviously wouldn't know a good plate of sushi if it hit him in the face.
Because you were never implying that I had no taste at all, clearly!

You expect me to forget about this:
I would say that pretty much all the complaints you've made against Japanese service here are either equally applicable to service found elsewhere or just too pitifully insignificant to warrant mentioning.
And believe that you just disagree -- not that you actually think that those issues are insignificant.

And you expect me to forget that previous comment when in the very next post where you try to 'clarify' your comments, and in the midst of apologizing for being 'perhaps harsher than you intended' you responded to this comment of mine:
You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them.
With this:
This is true and I'll tell you why. I used to make the exact same complaints (or similar complaints) during my first couple of years in Japan. I used to let stupid little things bother me simply because they weren't what I was used to back home. But after a while I realized I was letting these non-issues interfere with my enjoyment of life in Japan and I just learned to accept them. Japan is the way it is and there isn't much point in bitching about the small stuff because it isn't going to change. Instead of spending time analyzing all the little faults and trying to come up with over-arching theories about what these irritants said about Japanese society I realized it wasn't worth the bother and in fact was quite demeaning to Japanese people and I should just start concentrating on the things I like. I guaruntee you that if you spend another couple of years in Japan you will look back and wonder how you ever let this stuff bother you.
So not only are my complaints foolish, but they are demeaning to Japanese people, and you guarantee that if I spend a couple more years here I will wonder how I let those things bother me.

Maybe you just stumble over your words. Maybe you just got flustered and took it out on me. Maybe maybe maybe.

All I know about you is what you post. That means that your words, when written in the way that you have written them, are what I have to go on. And when a good deal of those words are insulting, condescending, and complete and total mixed messages, you're going to have to forgive me if I can't take your apologies to heart.

In each and every post so far in this thread, you have given me a nugget such as the preceeding ones. In every single post you've made in this thread, you've said something that on the surface is insulting, condescending, or just plain rude.

And yet you expect me to not be peeved and to ignore those slights because you apologize? In the same breath as criticizing me again?

Go back and actually read your posts. Take a look at what you actually wrote there. Take a look at how someone who isn't you might read them. Those are the words that I have to go on, and they don't look that nice to me. Perhaps I just have broken English to go along with my broken Japanese.

I take offense where offense has been given. And there's plenty in this thread. I am not sitting around sobbing to myself over what a mean jerk senseiman was to me, and about how I will never again be able to love myself, but for crissakes, you have been quite insensitive in this thread, and rude, and it's unmerited. Entirely.

So how about rather than adding fuel to the fire by delivering another half-apology shrouded in retractions and further questionable statements, you either go all-out on the insult front, just plainly apologize, or actually try to think about what you want to say without tossing stuff in there that will be taken the wrong way.

And it's Pierrot LE Fou. Just for reference.

[Index]

I don't get it.



What is it that you don't get? Senseiman has apologized to you a number of times, attempted to explain what he meant and how you may have misinterpreted him, and tried to diffuse the situation without offending you anymore. It seems to me that you are the one who is now continuously and obnoxiously attempting to throw fuel on a fire that should have died a long time ago. Relax and stop acting like a pretentious, pompous, uptight git. You must top the list for anal retentives.

[DoctorP]

It's not just a matter of broken English, just English. The difference between you and me is that I am not (like over 50% of all Caucasians) a native English speaker. It somehow hurts my "cultural" pride when they assume that I necessarily am an English speaker because I am Caucasian.

Ahhh...but the problem here lies in the fact that you do speak English! That is why I can't see you getting so frustrated. You have routinely stated how versed you are in many languages...even though you tend to have problems writing in English at times. Now...if you spoke only French or Chinese or whatever, and people kept addressing you in English I would understand your frustration.


I am sure that any non-Japanese Asian being addressed in Japanese while travelling abroad (except in Japan), or a Japanese being addressed in Chinese or Korean in a Western country would feel the same way. They would protest "I am not [nationality]", even if they can speak the language in which they are addressed.

I understand your point here and I do agree with this.


It's especially annoying when it happens all the time, not just once in a while. This is the case for me in Japan. Another reason to complain is that if their English level is really low, they should speak Japanese, as the language of the place where one is, is always the one that should be used in case of doubt.



It's a basic rule of politeness to address strangers in the local language if you can speak it (even if you do not speak it well), and only switch to another language if the other person does not understand you.

Maybe this "rule" is unknown of most Americans. It wouldn't surprise me as only 12% of the Americans can speak (fluently) a foreign language, as opposed to 53% in the EU, ranging from 30% in the UK to 99% in Luxembourg. (Sources :
Japan Times (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/makeprfy.pl5?eo20051016a1.htm) and Europa (http://europa.eu.int/abc/keyfigures/living_together/chatting/index_animated_en.htm))

Coming from a country with 3 official languages, divided by regions, I know that the most efficient and polite way to address a stranger is to use the official language of the place where I am at that time. If there is more than one official language (like in Brussels), then use the most common one or try to guess which one is more appropriate from the context/environment. The same happens in India, which has over 20 official languages and over 800 languages. Japan and the US are very monolingual cultures, and people tend to have less chances to interact with people speaking a different language. Let's hope that more frequent contact with foreigners and increased international experiences will help citizens of both countries to those fundamental rules of inter-cultural/linguistic communication.

Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but wouldn't you say that you know three languages because you are from Europe and it is more or less a necessity rather than a desire? Quite a few people who live in the Southwester US know both English and Spanish as there is quite a large contingent of Mexicans who live/work in those areas that do not know English and Spanish must be used in order to convey your thoughts.

It seems as though you and I believe the same on at least one thing: If you plan to live in a country you should at the least speak the language. Too many people in the US can not speak English, but they want residency or a green card and would like to live/work in the US. Not only that, but now schools cater to these people by offering classes in their native language rather than requiring them to learn English. But that is another topic for another thread...as a matter of fact I believe we discussed it before.

[Silverpoint]

I agree. I have had similar experiences. While it is true that Japanese service is almost always polite, their competence in their job, especially the part-time type like video shops, restaurants, combinis, etc. often leaves a lo to be desired. It happened to me a few times to go to a combini and ask to use the fax machine and the staff had no idea how to operate it.
Haha... sorry to drag the thread back a bit, but this amused me because it happened to me just this afternoon (albeit the first time - on previous occasions, the staff have been excellent). I went to a convenience store near my office to send an urgent private fax (didn't want the boss to see it). I made some fairly inane comment to one of the staff who was standing nearby along the lines of "is this easy to use" and he came running over and started trying to operate it for me. Clearly the guy had no idea what he was doing, but despite my protestations he insisted on trying to finish the job. In the end he started trying to send a 4 page fax by sending 1 page at a time, and making a new call for each page.

Even though it was an idiot-proof system, I ended up giving him a bloody lesson in how to send multiple pages in a single transmission, mainly because I wanted an excuse to stop his frustrated attempts to 'help' me, and because I didn't have 30 minutes to spare to send the damn thing.

[Elizabeth]

Ahhh...but the problem here lies in the fact that you do speak English! That is why I can't see you getting so frustrated. You have routinely stated how versed you are in many languages...even though you tend to have problems writing in English at times.
I think Maciamo gets in a hurry and doesn't bother editing most of the time....I've seen very simple mistakes in Japanese as well, not that that is an excuse on the principle of addressing a foreigner in a third tongue. :bluush:

[Maciamo]

...even though you tend to have problems writing in English at times.

I am not a native speaker, but if that is true, I would apprciate if you could point out what kind of mistakes I make. For example, I sometimes hesitate between the use of "this" or "that" ("if this is true" or "if that is true") or expressions like "on the contrary" vs "at the contrary". :?)

Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but wouldn't you say that you know three languages because you are from Europe and it is more or less a necessity rather than a desire?

In Belgium, one only needs French and Dutch (and maybe English), but as strange as it may be Dutch is the language I am the worst at among the 7 languages I have learnt, although I have learnt it quite a few years at school. I usually learnt more easily the languages that I wanted to learn for myself, not out of necessity, like Italian and German (which I didn't have to study at school). So in my case necessity in inversely proportional to aptitude.

[Maciamo]

I think Maciamo gets in a hurry and doesn't bother editing most of the time....I've seen very simple mistakes in Japanese as well, not that that is an excuse on the principle of addressing a foreigner in a third tongue. :bluush:

Maybe that's the reason. Indeed, I almost never re-read my posts, and sometimes only find my own spelling/typing mistakes when somebody quotes me. I have just checked, and I have written about 120 posts just in the last week (and usually pretty long). That's an average of 17 posts a day (+ reading other posts). Maybe that's no wonder I will soon reach 6000 posts in about 2.5 years... :relief:

[Mike Cash]

If I'm not mistaken the minimum wage in Japan IS in the 700-800 yen per hour wage

By Location (http://www2.mhlw.go.jp/topics/seido/kijunkyoku/minimum/minimum-02.htm#01)

By Industry (http://www2.mhlw.go.jp/topics/seido/kijunkyoku/minimum/minimum-16.htm)

[senseiman]

You expect me to believe that this comment:
Maybe she just couldn't understand your broken Japanese
Shouldn't be interpreted as an affront to my Japanese skills.

Why are you still harping on about this? You said you couldn't understand Keigo from which I made the mistaken yet not unreasonable assumption that your Japanese wasn't great (ie it was "broken", which is a pretty standard term). You explained otherwise and I ADMITTED my mistake and APOLOGIZED for having offended you. What the hell is it that you expect me to do? Tattoo "Pierrot le Fou's Japanese is NOT broken and I should burn for all eternity for having the gaul to have ever implied otherwise." on my forehead? Get over it.

You expect me to ignore that you said:
Spoken like someone who obviously wouldn't know a good plate of sushi if it hit him in the face.
Because you were never implying that I had no taste at all, clearly!

It was a tongue in cheek that 99% of people wouldn't be at all offended by. I've already apologized twice for it already and if you can't accept that and still demand satisfaction for your wounded ego then thats just too bad for you.

You expect me to forget about this:
I would say that pretty much all the complaints you've made against Japanese service here are either equally applicable to service found elsewhere or just too pitifully insignificant to warrant mentioning.
And believe that you just disagree -- not that you actually think that those issues are insignificant.

I DO think they are insignificant. DO you understand the difference between insignificant and illegitimate? Illegitimate means they are wrong, insignficant means that while they may be right the aren't really that important. How many times do I have to tell you? I'm not saying that your complaints are illegitimate, I'm saying they are insignificant or trivial.


So not only are my complaints foolish, but they are demeaning to Japanese people, and you guarantee that if I spend a couple more years here I will wonder how I let those things bother me.

I thought you would change your mind, you said you wouldn't. I accepted that and apologized. End of story. Stop crying like a four year old, you are making a scene.

Maybe you just stumble over your words. Maybe you just got flustered and took it out on me. Maybe maybe maybe.

Or maybe you are just too thick, anal retentive and self absorbed to comprehend whats being said to you.


And yet you expect me to not be peeved and to ignore those slights because you apologize? In the same breath as criticizing me again?

What do you expect? Not only do I have to apologize for having hurt your precious feelings but I also have to refrain from criticizing you and implicitly accept every word you say because doing otherwise would be interpreted as rude and condescending by you? Give me a break.

Go back and actually read your posts. Take a look at what you actually wrote there. Take a look at how someone who isn't you might read them. Those are the words that I have to go on, and they don't look that nice to me. Perhaps I just have broken English to go along with my broken Japanese.

I'd give you the same advice. I took a look back at all my posts and couldn't find any remote grounds on which you could argue I've given offence, with the exception of the sushi comment (which I've unconditionally apologized for), the broken Japanese comment (which I've also explained and completely apologized for), and calling you fluffyhamster by mistake. Everything else looks perfectly reasonable, so the problem must be YOU!

I've tried to be civil and make amends but you seem intent on throwing that back in my face, so now I'm going to be openly rude. You sound like an anal retentive little twerp and if you can't take even mild criticism then you really shouldn't be posting on message boards (or interacting with human beings in general).

I take offense where offense has been given. And there's plenty in this thread. I am not sitting around sobbing to myself over what a mean jerk senseiman was to me, and about how I will never again be able to love myself, but for crissakes, you have been quite insensitive in this thread, and rude, and it's unmerited. Entirely.

It certainly sounds for the past few posts that all you've been doing is sobbing about how hurt your feelings are. Wipe your tears, they aren't going to do you any good here. You are right though, it was insensitive of me not to reflexively agree with everything you've written here. Perhaps you should put a little disclaimer at the end of each of your posts: "Don't disagree with me or I'll throw a hissy fit and make everyone think I'm a total knob".

So how about rather than adding fuel to the fire by delivering another half-apology shrouded in retractions and further questionable statements, you either go all-out on the insult front, just plainly apologize, or actually try to think about what you want to say without tossing stuff in there that will be taken the wrong way.


No, no, the gloves are off. If you care to apologize for behaving like a spoiled 6 year old then I'm all ears. If you think I'm going to waste my breath apologizing again for the millionth time to a little primadonna like yourself you can forget it.

[DoctorP]

Am I the only one here that liked it better when he was being called "fluffy hamster"?

[Mike Cash]

He must be some kind of genius. I speak broken Japanese. Difference is I haven't lived in Japan as long as he has so it doesn't hurt my pride to admit it.

[senseiman]

Am I the only one here that liked it better when he was being called "fluffy hamster"?

It was an honest mistake for me to call him that, but now that I think of it the name does seem somehow appropriate....


He must be some kind of genius. I speak broken Japanese. Difference is I haven't lived in Japan as long as he has so it doesn't hurt my pride to admit it.

Yeah, I spent five years in Japan and studied my butt off for most of them but my Japanese is still broken. He must have some sort of massive linguistic ability to be able to speak perfect fluent Japanese uninfected by any accent or other deficiencies after only two years there. My hats are off to him.

[DoctorP]

Yeah, I spent five years in Japan and studied my butt off for most of them but my Japanese is still broken. He must have some sort of massive linguistic ability to be able to speak perfect fluent Japanese uninfected by any accent or other deficiencies after only two years there. My hats are off to him.


Wait just a minute though...I'm not doubting that he could be fluent. I am not fluent, but that is more by my choice to stop studying when I did...had I continued to study I probably would be fluent by now. As for accent, many people are shocked when they speak to me on the phone, because they say that I have absolutely no accent when I speak Japanese...this is very funny, because I was born and raised in the South and have a pretty heavy Southern drawl going for me! With that said, I believe that many people are able to become fluent in very short periods of time (just not me) and may well be able to function with little or no problems when speaking Japanese.

[Elizabeth]

この話の教訓は。。。

JREFでも、見知らない人と知り合いになるとき、いつで も、注意なさい。:okashii:

[senseiman]

Wait just a minute though...I'm not doubting that he could be fluent. I am not fluent, but that is more by my choice to stop studying when I did...had I continued to study I probably would be fluent by now. As for accent, many people are shocked when they speak to me on the phone, because they say that I have absolutely no accent when I speak Japanese...this is very funny, because I was born and raised in the South and have a pretty heavy Southern drawl going for me! With that said, I believe that many people are able to become fluent in very short periods of time (just not me) and may well be able to function with little or no problems when speaking Japanese.

Yeah, I have the same thing happen to me on the phone. I think its because I learned all the set phrases phoenetically by listening to my wife use them over and over again and can say them without much of an accent.

Its possible to become fluent in a relatively short time in some cases, but if you can't even understand (let alone use yourself) keigo (a basic, fundamental part of the language) then its probably safe to say that your Japanese is 'broken'. I can understand formal Japanese but have the damndest time whenever I try to use it myself, it isn't a pretty picture. On that basis alone I would be willing to admit that my Japanese was broken.

There is also the fact that just because you can function and have little in the way of trouble when speaking Japanese it doesn't mean your Japanese isn't broken. I studied quite a bit, passed level 2 of the JLPT, spoke the language almost everyday I was there in any range of situations and yet I still caught myself flubbing the grammar or racking my brain to try to think of a simple word all the time. By my definition, my Japanese definitely counts as broken.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Before I get started, I would like to point out that I have not directly insulted you, attacked you, or otherwise attributed any sort of negative quality to you NOT based on something that I derived from what you'd said. I would also like to point out that this thread has become a giant flaming pile of feces, and that there isn't much chance for recovery.

So in that light, this will be my last post in response to the whole fiasco. I will post if the thread gets back on track, but I'm not going to sit around and argue tooth and nail after this final shot at actually making a point if senseiman responds. Because it ain't something that's going to lead to edification.

Why are you still harping on about this? You said you couldn't understand Keigo from which I made the mistaken yet not unreasonable assumption that your Japanese wasn't great (ie it was "broken", which is a pretty standard term). You explained otherwise and I ADMITTED my mistake and APOLOGIZED for having offended you. What the hell is it that you expect me to do? Tattoo "Pierrot le Fou's Japanese is NOT broken and I should burn for all eternity for having the gaul to have ever implied otherwise." on my forehead? Get over it.

Broken is not equivalent to not great, and neither has to do with understanding keigo. Little children have trouble with keigo, and yet their Japanese isn't 'broken' it's just lacking higher level vocabulary and grammar. Broken language is characterized by gaps, pauses, and a sort of stumbling stuttering through sentences. Not by the inability to understand 'meshiagaru' or 'itadaite orimasu.'

Broken is furthermore NOT a standard term for deciding language ability, and has a negative connotation to it. Non-fluent, intermediate/beginner level -- these things are more neutral. Calling someone's language broken is really not a neutral term because of the connotations of the word 'broken' as if it has to be 'fixed' rather than stating that their language is in a constant state of improvement and will just get there with time.

Again, I don't want to get into a giant back-and-forth about this anymore, so you can either agree that it's not a very kind statement to make about language scales, or argue into the wind about it.

It was a tongue in cheek that 99% of people wouldn't be at all offended by. I've already apologized twice for it already and if you can't accept that and still demand satisfaction for your wounded ego then thats just too bad for you.

The internet is notoriously poor and changing its inflection to indicate sarcasm. We should blame the board software perhaps? Perhaps 99% of people would have understood that was tongue in cheek in person, but this isn't in person, and making comments like that aren't exactly easy to see through when shrouded in the rest of your semi-insulting comments (and followed up by directly insulting comments later on).

And for the record, my ego isn't wounded at all. I could care less what someone who doesn't know me thinks of my Japanese skills as they have no clue about them. I'm just rather appalled at how incredibly rude you've been on the basis of posts that you agree with.

I DO think they are insignificant. DO you understand the difference between insignificant and illegitimate? Illegitimate means they are wrong, insignficant means that while they may be right the aren't really that important. How many times do I have to tell you? I'm not saying that your complaints are illegitimate, I'm saying they are insignificant or trivial.

You concede my complaints are insignificant. You think it is illogical to make insignificant complaints. Therefore making insignificant complaints is illegitimate in your eyes. Do you realize the logical implications of what you say?

Even if we assume that you meant what you explained yourself to have meant, should I truly feel content and warm and fuzzy inside because my complaints aren't illegitimate? Only insignificant? Neither is too positive, and both are quite condescending (because they require the presumption that you get to decide which issues are 'significant' or not -- do you also tell gay folk that their desire to marry is 'insignificant' because as a straight married man it doesn't help you to worry about it?).

I thought you would change your mind, you said you wouldn't. I accepted that and apologized. End of story. Stop crying like a four year old, you are making a scene.

...

Or maybe you are just too thick, anal retentive and self absorbed to comprehend whats being said to you.

This is about the level of discussion the thread has devolved into... Yes, you are being rude and condescending.

What do you expect? Not only do I have to apologize for having hurt your precious feelings but I also have to refrain from criticizing you and implicitly accept every word you say because doing otherwise would be interpreted as rude and condescending by you? Give me a break.

No, you don't have to apologize for 'hurting my feelings' (which you didn't do). I said that if you were going to apologize, which you keep mentioning you've done as if it's a panacaea to tossing insults my way constantly, then you should make a legitimate effort towards it not involving calling me names or being rude. You can flame me all you want, I just think it's rather hypocritical that you are claiming that your apologies should be enough while piling more insults on top of them.

I don't even mind legitimate criticism! I don't mind people disagreeing with me! Hell, we could have had a great discussion here save for two key problems:
1) You agreed with me
2) Your version of disagreeing seems to involve being rude and calling me names

So I think that idea went out the window with the dishwater.

I'd give you the same advice. I took a look back at all my posts and couldn't find any remote grounds on which you could argue I've given offence, with the exception of the sushi comment (which I've unconditionally apologized for), the broken Japanese comment (which I've also explained and completely apologized for), and calling you fluffyhamster by mistake. Everything else looks perfectly reasonable, so the problem must be YOU!

I've tried to be civil and make amends but you seem intent on throwing that back in my face, so now I'm going to be openly rude. You sound like an anal retentive little twerp and if you can't take even mild criticism then you really shouldn't be posting on message boards (or interacting with human beings in general).

You haven't tried to be civil. Please, look back over the thread again. Point to me the point where I have been anything BUT civil. I may have offended YOUR sensibilities as you're the one flying off the handle, but I certainly haven't done anything approaching calling you an "anal retentive twerp."

It certainly sounds for the past few posts that all you've been doing is sobbing about how hurt your feelings are. Wipe your tears, they aren't going to do you any good here. You are right though, it was insensitive of me not to reflexively agree with everything you've written here. Perhaps you should put a little disclaimer at the end of each of your posts: "Don't disagree with me or I'll throw a hissy fit and make everyone think I'm a total knob".

No, the past few posts I've been pointing out that you were rude, condescending, and contradictory on an issue you conceded that you agreed with me on.

That's a world apart from 'hurt feelings.'

No, no, the gloves are off. If you care to apologize for behaving like a spoiled 6 year old then I'm all ears. If you think I'm going to waste my breath apologizing again for the millionth time to a little primadonna like yourself you can forget it.

Yes, well, this primadonna is incredibly happy that you took one of my suggestions, and dropped the veil of civility, and just stuck to flinging feces. Because it suits the mood of the thread far better, and makes a lot more sense. So I'm done here, because there's really little point to taking this any further.

[senseiman]

Before I get started, I would like to point out that I have not directly insulted you, attacked you, or otherwise attributed any sort of negative quality to you NOT based on something that I derived from what you'd said. I would also like to point out that this thread has become a giant flaming pile of feces, and that there isn't much chance for recovery.

So in that light, this will be my last post in response to the whole fiasco. I will post if the thread gets back on track, but I'm not going to sit around and argue tooth and nail after this final shot at actually making a point if senseiman responds. Because it ain't something that's going to lead to edification.

I think I will respond, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.



Broken is not equivalent to not great, and neither has to do with understanding keigo. Little children have trouble with keigo, and yet their Japanese isn't 'broken' it's just lacking higher level vocabulary and grammar. Broken language is characterized by gaps, pauses, and a sort of stumbling stuttering through sentences. Not by the inability to understand 'meshiagaru' or 'itadaite orimasu.'

Broken is furthermore NOT a standard term for deciding language ability, and has a negative connotation to it. Non-fluent, intermediate/beginner level -- these things are more neutral. Calling someone's language broken is really not a neutral term because of the connotations of the word 'broken' as if it has to be 'fixed' rather than stating that their language is in a constant state of improvement and will just get there with time.

Again, I don't want to get into a giant back-and-forth about this anymore, so you can either agree that it's not a very kind statement to make about language scales, or argue into the wind about it.

Actually, you've been the one arguing in the wind about it for several posts, just to recap I ADMITTED my mistake and APOLOGIZED about five posts ago (and in just about every subsequent post) but you just don't want to let the issue drop. So I'd like to take the opportunity you've given me here to renounce all my previous apologies and just let everyone know that I think your Japanese sucks, your grammar is terrible, you couldn't spell your own name in katakana even if you had a template you just had to trace around. Furthermore your pronounciation is atrocious and your vocabulary is so small it'd take an electron magniscope to find. You really ought to be ashamed of how bad it is, you terrible Japanese speaker.



The internet is notoriously poor and changing its inflection to indicate sarcasm. We should blame the board software perhaps? Perhaps 99% of people would have understood that was tongue in cheek in person, but this isn't in person, and making comments like that aren't exactly easy to see through when shrouded in the rest of your semi-insulting comments (and followed up by directly insulting comments later on).

I quite agree, one's tone isn't always accurately conveyed on the internet, which is why any sane person would have simply accepted my explanation and apology for the misunderstanding in the knowledge that it was just that -a misunderstanding- and moved on. Certain morons like.....say, yourself...don't seem to be so quick at catching on though.

And for the record, my ego isn't wounded at all. I could care less what someone who doesn't know me thinks of my Japanese skills as they have no clue about them. I'm just rather appalled at how incredibly rude you've been on the basis of posts that you agree with.

Your