Divine Wind - or not so Divine?

[Sensuikan San]

At great risk of boring everybody, I'm afraid that I simply cannot resist opening another World War II thread – but ... heck, somebody has to keep it going!

And, as you will see ... there is a curious relevance to today's world in this one.

I have, for a long time now, been very interested in the “Kamikaze” and “Kaiten” suicide tactics used by Japan during WWII and the psychology behind them. Like most westerners, I was always somewhat horrified at the idea of self sacrifice on such a scale (not quite so horrified as my old dad – he saw it in action at The Battle of Leyte Gulf ...!) ... and tended to look at those young pilots almost as a form of “war criminal” - what they were doing seemed so unnatural.

The more I examine the matter, however, the more I begin to realise that what really interests me is not those young men per se; not the psychology that affected them ... but our very own attitudes towards them!

In short – what are those attitudes? What do the Kamikaze signify to you?

Were they merely a desperate “last-ditch” measure .... that pandered to a cultural myth? ...or were they a genuine realisation of a potentially potent weapon ( ... that may have pandered to a cultural reality)?

Let's be honest – if you can sink a large aircraft carrier with the loss of many lives in return for the sacrifice of one 20-year old volunteer .... militarily, that ain't a bad return!

Personally, I have come to look at them with a certain sadness (but ... I have Western values and a Western outlook on life). I look at them as rather naïve but dedicated young men who truly felt that they were “doing the right thing”. Believers in a pure form of patriotism that allowed them to do what they did at the slightest suggestion.

In the final analysis ... I feel sorry for them.

I would like to see others views on this, and I would be most interested to learn of the current Japanese attitude to this rather sad chapter of history.

Any thoughts?

And .... as a “kicker” to my post .....

..... feeling as I do about the Kamikaze .... how should I respond to today's suicide bombers in the Middle East and elsewhere?

I confess that I do not feel the same about them. Why not? Is there a comparison? Are they not equally dedicated? Are they actually doing the same thing?

Personally, I think not ... but ... are they the same? .... or different?

My apologies for possibly being a little ghoulish - but I've wanted to discuss this one for a long time!

ジョン

[senseiman]

I think the big difference between the suicide bombers in the middle east and the kamikaze pilots is that the suicide bombers are often targetting innocent civilians whereas the kamikazes only attacked navy ships which in wartime is sort of fair game.

Other than that there are some similarities though. Obviously its a weapon of the weak, the Japanese didn't use them until it became apparent they were going to loose the war and the terror groups in the middle east wouldn't last ten seconds in a fair fight against whichever army they are facing.

[RockLee]

It's so scary you post this as I was wondering the same thing the other day.
And I wondered what is so honourable in taking your own life after defeat :? It seems a bit cowardly as you don't want to face your punishment or don't even try to correct the mistakes you made.It puzzles me :souka:

[Mamoru-kun]

It seems a bit cowardly as you don't want to face your punishment or don't even try to correct the mistakes you made.It puzzles me :souka:
Did really loosing the war make the Japanese people think that they were guilty, or even did mistakes towards other civilization? I think that it just proved them that they were weaker, or at least not as strong as they first thought. Wouldn't it be the reason why they did all those things at the end of the war, in the same way samurais did seppuku when their master died?

Regarding the kamikaze, I'd like to add something my wife told me. She is basically a Japanese history teacher, who also has learned Japan history -outside Japan-, what is something really missing (her own words) in Japan actually. She told me that -most- of the kamikaze hadn't the choice. Their staff forced them to climb on their planes in such words: "If you go and die, you're family will be honored"...but what made them climb was the corollary: "If you don't go, your family will suffer more than if the Americans were here!"...such a thing. She also told me that what we see at television is just a very small part of what really happened: most of the future kamikaze had nothing else to do than to cry all their tears before taking off...I just can't imagine how their world had been those days :(

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

所感 （特攻隊手記）
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Studio/1715/syokan.html

回天特別攻撃隊
http://tokyo.cool.ne.jp/kaiten_website/kaiten.swf

真実はどこに
http://www13.ocn.ne.jp/~autofilm/sinzitu.html

[RockLee]

Did really loosing the war make the Japanese people think that they were guilty, or even did mistakes towards other civilization? I think that it just proved them that they were weaker, or at least not as strong as they first thought. Wouldn't it be the reason why they did all those things at the end of the war, in the same way samurais did seppuku when their master died?I wasn't really refering to Kamikaze, sorry.But I mean suicide in Japanese culture in general.Take the Samurai for instance, if they made a mistake, wouldn't it be better to make up for it then just taking your own life?Even these days too many people commit suicide when they screwed something up or commited a "shameful act".Taking your own life goes too far and it's selfish towards your family and friends.Sometimes people just think it's the easiest way and can't handle the consequences, that's why I think it's kinda cowardly.

[Mamoru-kun]

I see. You're right. That's also how I would feel if one of my family members committed suicide (well, apart being sad of course). But I wonder if all Japanese families really feel the same. I mean, in such an education, wouldn't some feel "proud" of what their family member had the "courage" to do, facing its own mistake (like an "auto punishment", noticing by himself his fault, and not waiting for the Justice to do its work by itself)?

[lexico]

I see. That's indeed how I would also feel if one of my family members committed suicide (well, apart being sad of course). But I wonder if Japanese families really feel the same. Disappointment and anger would be one possible way of responding to a family member's suicide, as it is taking off without any possibility of making amends. However if the "obvious" outcome of staying alive had nothing "good" in it for whatever odd reason, choosing to switch off might be the way to salvage what good one could as a last resort. It the reason were good enough, even the famiy might agree with the decision. For example, Adolf Hitler (if he had a family) probably did the wise thing for himself (apart from the sin of suicide as a Christian) rather than staying alive to face the responsibility of losing and paying for the genocidal crimes. It might have benefited mankind more if he stayed on to face the victims and see how they felt about it and hear what they had to say, and perhaps come to realise his erring. Admission to the facts of the crimes and a confession of remorse might have had some redeemng quality - it would have had some positive quality if that had happened.I mean, in such an education, wouldn't some feel "proud" of what their family member had the "courage" to do, facing its own mistake (like an "auto punishment", noticing by himself his fault, and not waiting for the Justice to do its work by itself) ?Admitting that there is the cultural validation of the strength and dignity in having the choice, I'd tend to think the educational factor would apply to the West instead. I seriously doubt suicide would have been so tabooed in the West were it not for the Christian commandments prohibiting murder and self-mutilation taught for nearly 2,000 yrs. The thing is both people of high and low, the rich and the poor, often chose death as an honorable exit (so we are told) when defeat was evident, and the loss of status, wealth, power, glory, or honor was considered irreparable. Nevertheless, it is also only one way of looking at things and loses validity esp. if the magnitude of the problem triggering the taking of one's life is questionable. The recent surge in suicide in Japan and Asia alike should be attributed to the industrialised mode of living where the individuals are separated from the traditional social fabric and natural mode of production/consumption. Return to nature; all this glorification of suicide has little to do with the average guy who can make meaningful contact with .... things, people, work, entertainment, and pets. :p
-----------------------------------------------
Back on topic of military terrorism

First terrorism in strictest sense of the word is defined "a political or military act of violence on a criminal who has caused undue pain and suffering to the victim(s) without resorting to the legal procedure, e.g. in a war or war-like situation." More on this Bush's war on terrorism (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=240925&highlight=terrorism#post240925), and wiki: terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism).

The lowest form of terrorism would be, as Senseiman pointed out, for the mightly to use violence on the weak; that should disqualify the action as true terrorism. The only genuine kind of terrorism with any positive idea would be political; and that would have to be targeted right at the political figure responsible for a particular policy of behaviour, not indiscriminately attacking just anyone. The alleged crime would have to be great, and the difficulty of bringing the culprit to justice would have to be insurmountable to have even the remotest possiblity of justification. The ideal form would be arresting(kidnapping) to a court with all the procedures of a fair trial, ruling, and execution whether it is jailing or other. Again bombing would be the inferior choice by all means. Bombing or beheading civilians can never qualify as terrorism in the classical sense.

[Mandylion]

for anyone interested in the psychology of the US and Japan in WWII, I would strongly recommend you take a look at this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394751728/104-9179269-0451959?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance) book, John Dower's War Without Mercy. It concerns the use of propaganda in mobilizing the troops, and how each side viewed the other in the heat of war. It also looks at issues of racism and how it was used as a justification both for killing the enemy and an explanation for the others barbarism (neither side is free of this, if you didn't know of it already, some of what US troops did will make you sick). It also looks at how Japan approached the rest of Asia in its drive to forge a "co-prosperity sphere" and hints at some of the roots of today’s political tensions in the region.

A very good read for any serious student of Modern Japanese history.

[EdZiomek]

Actually, this is a very interesting subject, that has implications in todays world events.

What and where is the profit of a suicidal act? Apparently there is a "hoped for" profitable gain by this final action on a human's part.

In a military sense, an aircraft carrier might be destroyed, with the "profit" of saving hundreds or thousands of friends, family, neighbors from being bombed. And many of these "kamikazes pilots" were truly heroic, in the purest sense of the word, for their cause. PS... there were American pilots who ALSO crashed their planes into Japanese warships when they had no hope of returning due to damaged airships, or whatever... it wasn't entirely Japanese suicidal planes.

In a terrorist sense, which still gives me a sickening sense of dread and absolute puzzlement, the killer bomber (not the "suicide" bomber) targets civilians in many instances, for the sheer mindlessness of it all. Of course, the older leaders who encourage the younger men to do the act... don't become "killer bombers", otherwise they would have been dead long ago. Most often, the killer is between 14 and 34 and is male. And sadly, too many of the terrorist killers of 9-11 I am told, were ... what is the term... "detached" from their families, or ...alienated from their fathers, etc. etc.

The almost 100% consistent element among the terrorist killer bombers, is a sense of hopelessness with their lives, and a belief that they were "helping" others in their sacrifice.

A very curious parallel seems to have existed among the central American indians... the Mayas and the Incas... Death was "life", and "Life was Death". The rubber ball game had two winners, and two losers. The winners gained the right to be sacrificed, by having their heart cut out. The losers had to endure the hellish "life" and compete again on some other day, for the chance to gain "paradise".

There seems to be cultures today, who believe that what we call "existence", is "hell" and suffering, and what we call "death", some people fervently believe that this termination of the physical life brings "happiness".

What an amazing book could be written... the final letters of Japanese Kamikaze pilots to their families... Has this book been written yet?

I would buy it, and I think I would gain by this knowledge.

[kokusu]

for anyone interested in the psychology of the US and Japan in WWII, I would strongly recommend you take a look at this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394751728/104-9179269-0451959?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance) book, John Dower's War Without Mercy.

Oh, darn! You beat me to the punch, Mandylion! :D :bluush: :cool:

Sooo . . . let me just second this recommendation.

Also, Dower's Embracing Defeat sheds some light on the absolute desperate times the Japanese were in at the end of WWII. Under such circumstances, desperation tactics, including suicide, might not have really seemed so terrible after all.

There is another book . . . augh! I've forgotten the author's name (Shigeru?) and the book title! :p :blush: :sorry: But, the author was a kamikaze pilot who survived his attack run, was rescued by the U.S. Navy, and eventually came to be an outspoken opponent to war. In any case, here you have a person who went on to write books concerned with encouraging peaceful resolution to conflict, and yet at one point in his life he was ready to die a fiery death in the hopes of sinking a U.S. naval ship and crew. What's my point? Um . . . :blush: Well, the author seemed like a fairly well-adjusted individual in the long run . . . so if he could be pushed to that extreme, could I also be pushed that far? :?