Where are you at with Japanese, how did you get there?

[Bucko]

Apart from the recent new arrivals we've seen in the learning Japanese section of Jref, this section has been pretty dead lately. I'd like to get thing going again in here again. Firstly I thought I'd find out where everyone is at with their Japanese study. I'd like to know:
1) How you got to where you are
2) What you can currently do
3) What you want to be able to do soon

How I got to where I am:
- did compulsary Japanese for around 1 year in school, was really crap, uninterested, and all I remembered was how to count to 10, and konnichiwa;
- moved to Japan mid-2004 for no real reason (except that I hated my job back home and wanted an adventure). In Japan I had some Japanese friends teach me some basic Japanese - kore, sore, are, koko, soko asko, doko, nani, kudasai, arigatou, tabemasu, nomimasu, anata, sumimasen, hitotsu, futatsu and not much more (no reading at all at this stage)
- moved back home November 2004 with the intention of returning to Japan.
- January this year I opened a Japanese text book for the first time and actually found the stuff quite interesting. Had a spare few hours one night so decided I'd try and learn a couple of hiragana. To my surprise I actually learnt the entire hiragana that night. Was so surprised at how easy it was that I've been motivated to learn ever since.
- in Feburary this year signed up for a two month basic Japanese course. It was all in Japanese, so I got to use my newly acquainted hiragana well. Didn't really learn too much at the course but it did give me a good grounding for future study
- around April got the Pimsleur courses and listened to them religiously. Am up to lesson 20 of volume 3 (80/90). Have put it on hold now as I'm going to a language school.
- around the same time I also got Remembering the Kanji by Heisig which has been quite useful
- moved back to Japan in July this year
- three weeks ago started at a language school near my house, 9 lessons a week for 4-5 weeks (maybe more if I can afford it).
- stopped Heisig's kanji at the 400 mark, now I just use it as a reference for any new kanji I learn. Lately I've been learning kanji and basic vocab religiously for the last 3 weeks (gotta catch up to all the Chinese students in my class!)

What I can currently do:
- speak basic sentences
- use basic comparative sentences using "demo", "blah blah blah, demo, blah blah"
- can use about 60-70 different verbs in the four main tenses
- use adjectives quite basically
- can use time, dates, and numbers relatively well now. "ichi ji han kara san ji made" etc
- starting to use "kara" to show reason (..."nihongo wo benkyou shitai desu kara"), working on this now
- can write about 300 kanji, including Japanese pronounciations, and can read basic stories.
- can understand basic spoken Japanese, as long as the speaker speaks slowly

What I can't do but want to be able to do soon:
- use "if/then conditionals", no idea what they are
- use the word "toki" to express what happened at a particular time. Had it explained briefly but haven't used it properly yet
- be able to speak in both masu and plain forms
- still not sure about the whole "donna", "dore", "dono" thing
- get a firmer grasp on adjectives, and be able to use adverbs.
- use several verbs in one sentence. E.g. I'm unable to say "he's good at listening to people speaking Japanese", "last Thursday I saw a man running from the police".
- say "once, twice, three times etc." as in "I've been to Tokyo three times", as well saying "first, second, third" - "this is my third beer tonight".
- get a better grasp on particles

So that's my Japanese in a nutshell. All up I've done about 10 months of study (excluding school, and my lame first attempt when I first moved to Japan last year).

How about everyone else?

[Bucko]

Agh, I should really proof read before posting. Can't be bothered editing anymore.

[yukon]

Started learning japanese in march,05. Will be giving the level 3 jlpt exam next month. The institute where I am taking japanese classes finished the level 3 classes just this friday. Describing what I can currently do with level 3 japanese- http://www.thejapanesepage2.com/kanji/jlpt.htm

For upper beginners who understand the basics of grammar, can make everyday simple conversations and can read easy written Japanese.

# of Kanji: 300
# of words needed to know: 1500
# of hours needed to study:300

[Bucko]

Yeah I'm doing the JLPT test too but for some reason I was all scared when I filled out the form and chose level 4. Oh well, next year's is the one I'm aiming for (level 1 or 2).

[GaijinPunch]

1) I studied balls, and lived in Japan for a while.
2) I've just started traditional studying again after a 6 (?) year hiatus.
3) Pass the JLPT 1.

I don't think I'll pass this year in all honesty. Only about half of the obscure vocab will stick, and I'm not a good reader (in English or Japanese to be honest). We'll see though. I got a 50% on it going in w/o studying a lick back in 1999.

[Glenn]

The thing about the JLPT 1 that strikes me as difficult is the grammatical patterns that aren't used in daily life (even in newspapers) that come up, and I'm guessing some of the vocabulary is along those lines as well (like things like 熱帯雨林, which probably isn't 日常会話). I think I could probably pass level 2, but it seems that you need level 1 to study in Japan as a regular student, and since I want to do graduate study in Japan anything less than level 1 is pointless, especially since it's $50 to take levels 1 & 2. I think I'll wait until I have the 2000 kanji and 10,000 words.

To answer the original question, I started in the fall of 2000 at Berklee in Boston, because my friend wanted to take Japanese and he convinced me to take it so that we would have a class together before he graduated. After the spring 2001 semester I've studied on my own through books, the internet, TV, movies, and anime, and I enrolled in the Japanese program at Hawaii this semester. I do pretty well reading, writing, listening, and speaking, although when the speech gets fast and slurred (i.e. natural :blush:) I have problems, and there certainly are some vocabulary issues. My goals are to learn more kanji and learn them better (i.e. the ones I know and the ones I don't know), and learn more set phrases (read: natural phrasings) and vocabulary (especially adverbs and especially onomatopoeia). My only hope is that my laziness doesn't get in the way.

[GaijinPunch]

I think it's a very safe assumption to say that you need to study for the Level 1 to pass it... unless you're a native speaker. The kanji stuff isn't too hard. It's not all irregularly pronounced words, but there are some tricky ones. There's some gimme's too.

Yes, the grammar part sucks, but I think the reading comprehension is definitely the deal breaker. You can have the 2,000 kanji and 10,000 words but still do terrible on the reading and grammar part (which is 40% of the test).

AFAIK, you can do post graduate work w/o the JLPT 1... on certain programs anyway. I'm assuming Monbusho is one of them.

[Glenn]

I'll have to look into that. I think one of my teachers told me that JLPT 1 is needed for study in Japan as a regular student. Thanks for the tip.

[GaijinPunch]

If I'm not mistaken, you need JLPT 2 to go to a junior college or other senmon gakko, and 1 to go attend university. However, I think this is joining on your own. Monbusho is not geared for only the highest level of speakers, so I'm assuming they've got something for everyone, even at the graduate level. Again, all speculation on bits I've heard over the years.

On that note, taking the Level 2 is not a bad idea. It's still not a cake test by any stretch, but is attainable to some level even with minimal experience living in Japan. Just don't forget to start studying for Level 1 once the Level 2 is over, like I did. O_o

[epigene]

The thing about the JLPT 1 that strikes me as difficult is the grammatical patterns that aren't used in daily life (even in newspapers) that come up, and I'm guessing some of the vocabulary is along those lines as well (like things like 熱帯雨林, which probably isn't 日常会話).
I don't think so... I think I've posted on this a long time ago. But, I'm saying it again.

I've checked a sample JLPT1 test, and that is quite "average" for a Japanese native speaker (with high school diploma). FYI, the linguistic level of the university entrance examinations for regular (native Japanese) students is much, much higher! For me, I think Level 1 is what you need to be able to read and understand the Japanese newspaper (in every page).

Also, "everyday Japanese conversation" is not adequate for entering university level study. And 熱帯雨林 is "tropical rainforest." Don't you learn that in grade school or junior high school geography class?

This might not be completely accurate, but I think you will see reverse of what you are doing (Japanese students studying English) if you see the STEP Grade 1 level test for Japanese learners of English (or even TOEIC). I'm pretty sure you'll find the English level there quite "ordinary." That level is what many Japanese students are struggling to achieve. :bluush:

[Elizabeth]

私にとっては、試験など気にし ないで練習あるのみだと思います。:p

[GaijinPunch]

I've only looked very breifly at level 1 English test. I forgot what it was, but it's the one where reading comprehension is the main focus. It was painfully tricky. I had to double check the answers on a few of them. I'm a pretty poor reader, but I thought it was quite nasty.

I think Glenn's main point was that the Level 2 is a lot easier to prepare for b/c the material used is much, much more... err... usable for lack of a better word. You can apply just about everything you learn. While everday coversation isn't enough to enter university (which is the same for any langauge in a school worth going to I would say), it is more than enough to have a very successful life in Japan. That's the kicker about the level 1... for me anyway.

Anyways... I think we've derailed the thread quite a bit. :/

[yukon]

I knew that japanese was a tough language but I found out the level of convolutedness after I started studying the language. Makes you appreciate the simplicity of english.
Has anybody here taken the JETRO test? While studying for level 2 next year, I plan to attempt JETRO but am not sure where this test is useful and who requires it.

And lastly, I dropped out of engineering 3 1/2 years back(involuntarily, due to reasons beyond my control). Should I complete a degree in India and then come to Japan or complete level 2 and then try to take up my studies in japan? I'm 23, soon to be 24.

Those are in japan, what is your take on language schools in japan and are there opportunities for people like me to work there?

I am a little uncertain on what I should do next.

[Elizabeth]

I do pretty well reading, writing, listening, and speaking, although when the speech gets fast and slurred (i.e. natural :blush:) I have problems

It must be a natural barrier since this is my biggest challenge now as well. :relief: I can understand a news broadcast almost perfectly but don't have the deep knowledge to interpret very much that is nonstandard or not clearly pronounced. Regular conversation, movies, anime etc are usually somewhere in between.

But my progess in the last several months in all areas I think has been truly remarkable :happy: -- with everything suddenly coming together -- to the point that I'm listening or coming up with phrases practically constantly and feel more like I'm immersed in a Japanese environment rather than having to set aside time to 'study' per se. :cool: Laziness has only been an issue for five or six years, maybe I'm finally getting past it ? :blush:

[GaijinPunch]

But my progess in the last several months in all areas I think has been truly remarkable -- with everything suddenly coming together

I guess there's "that point" where you get really comfortable with what you know, and seem to not skip a beat. Just make sure something doesn't come along and shatter it. I've come to the realization that there's not just one "nihongo plateau" as I used to call it, but several... although the first one is definitely the hardest to get off of.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I'd like to know:
1) How you got to where you are
2) What you can currently do
3) What you want to be able to do soon
1. This is a long story! I'll try to be brief!

First I found myself with a girlfriend from Japan. Next thing I knew, we were engaged. So I studied Japanese in university for 1 1/2 years and then did a study abroad in Japan for a year. During that 1 1/2 year span, I got to know the Japanese ESL crowd, and I had several language exchange partners. I had a Japanese room-mate for 1 year during this time, also.

In Japan, I took regular classes with the Japanese students, found a part-time job, made as many friends as I could, and joined a tennis circle. Upon completion of my study-abroad, I studied Japanese at uni for another trimester and then graduated school.

After this, I applied for the JET programme, and I worked at an oriental grocery store in the meantime. I learned a lot about Japanese food during this time. (It's amazing what you can learn about something when you have to sell it every day!)

So then I packed my bags and did the JET Programme for a year. I was able to speak in Japanese most of the time, because I was in the middle of nowhere, and there were no real decent English speakers for miles around anyway.

After that, I moved to Aichi and started to live not as a foreigner, but just as a regular person. Being a part of society is a great way to learn, even without proper studying! :relief:

2. I can function in Japanese society without much trouble equal with regular Japanese people. Of course, I have difficulty when people talk about things before a certain year or anything else I don't know much about.

3. I would really like to brush up on my classical Japanese, as I've forgotten almost everything I learned (i.e. had to teach myself, because I was in WAY over my head) in my Genji Monogatari seminar during my study abroad.

[Elizabeth]

I guess there's "that point" where you get really comfortable with what you know, and seem to not skip a beat. Just make sure something doesn't come along and shatter it. I've come to the realization that there's not just one "nihongo plateau" as I used to call it, but several... although the first one is definitely the hardest to get off of.
どうもありがとう。プラトーに達するので、秘訣なんて教えられますか？:?

もしまた日本に１年程滞在して、ホームステイをしながら語学学校に通ったとしたら、アメリ カに帰国したとき仕事があるがどうかわからないし、い つ日本にまた戻れるかわからないです。となってイライ ラするときもあります。 :bluush:

しかし、それに対して、多くの日本人は「どうして仕事 をやめてまで日本に長期滞在したいのか、理解できませ ん。日本がそんなに良い国だとは思えないんですが。」 と答えたりとかですよね。:okashii:　私にとっては日� {語は勉強する価値が十分ある言語のか疑いを持ってい� ﾈいけど。

[Kintaro]

I'm still on my 3-4 year plateau, because I haven't had any active practice ever since I joined this site. Or somewhat before.

The problem with learning a language on your own is that with the evolution of the Internet, people can attempt to learn any language they want on their own. However, it is very hard to do so because most of the best resources are pay-based, excruciatingly long and boring. (Give Pimsleur to someone who knows 400 kanji yet isn't proerly trained in conversation skills, instantaneous sentence structure formation with no active correection available - he'll put the tapes in a vat of acid.)

While there is a Japanese Language Meetup group in my area (Ottawa, Ontario [CAN]), I can't go 80 % of the time, and when I do go, the quality of the language is at a level where I can understand it, but can't actively participate. I've resigned myself to the obligation of meeting a tutor once I have enough funds to do so. It isn't cheap, but not excruciatingly expensive IF I'm working a decent job.

The problem with the Internet is that there are so many resources available for instantaneous use of Japanese (namely JWPce, anything Jim Breen has released on the internet, J-E Dict, Moji in Mozilla Browsers (probable JBrowse would be a competitive piece of work for IE), websites who automatically create furigana ruby for webpages)... we've went from knowing nothing to being overflowed with raw data without the ability to process it. There aren't many places that I've found on the net describing all or a significantly large portion of particle and tool words vital to sentence structure. It's expected to find ka(interrog.), ka(choice [=or]), wa, ga, ni, de, o, e, and probably if you got far enough, the ko-so-a-do series (koko, kore, kochira, kocchi), kara and made. It's very hard to find resources describing other elements of sentence structure, full formation for basic models, complex sentences and how they compare to complex sentences in english/french/whatever, etc...

It's just very frustrating because I've already lived a language shock, English being my native language, and then doing all my Secondary and above education in French. The difference being that out of the million and a half people in my vicinity (100km radius), there are probably 300000 francophones, and umm, six Japanese if I subtract Embassy staff (It looks like a prison).

tl;dr crowd (answers to OP):
1) Internet, anime, and manga. Did I mention the Internet ?
2) The same thing I could do 3 years ago, with a bit more software, but always with JWPce
3) Speak spontaneously without having to check myself for sentence structure because someone will have taught me and corrected me.
4) Currently headed = Nowhere until giant downpour of money arrives.

[kuramu]

1) How you got to where you are
ほとんど、 自分で 勉強 しています。 毎週 5時間いじょう 勉強を できます。
Pimsleurも 聞きます。 このごろ 日本の 映画を みます。 "Shall We Dance" や
"海が 聞こえる" や "耳を すませば"が 好きです。 春から、 毎週 一時間 かていきょうしに
あいます。

2) What you can currently do
Construct simple sentences (or not, depending on how much what I think I
said and what I actually wrote above differ). Write about 150 kanji,
read a few more then that.

3) What you want to be able to do soon
Be proficient at a JLPT level 3 near the end of next year, not a too
difficult goal I think, but I'm trying a lot of different material, not
just focusing on the JLPT material, so I expect that to take longer.

My theory on self study is that its not very efficient, but that a) its
more then I'll learn not studying Japanese, and b) when opportunities
for conversation come along later hopefully it will be a little less
difficult because of some of the groundwork I'm doing now.

[Bucko]

kuramuさん。あなたの日本語と私の日本語はちょっと同 じと思います。どのくらい日本語を勉強しましたか？来 年の１２月に私はJLPT２が出来たいです。今年の１２月 にJLPT４をします。今、私は日本の映画が話す速すぎま す。

ところで、日本に行きましたか？行きますか？

[MeAndroo]

After a year and a half of Japanese study in college and 3 separate trips to Japan equaling 8 months of living with host families speaking almost exclusively Japanese, I'm at the point where I'm comfortable in everyday conversation, can fairly communicate intermediately complex ideas, and have learned to handle people who speak at a rapid pace.

That being said, due to my immersion in mainly casual situations, my grammar and kanji writing ability have gone to complete crap.

[Glenn]

I think Glenn's main point was that the Level 2 is a lot easier to prepare for b/c the material used is much, much more... err... usable for lack of a better word. You can apply just about everything you learn. While everday coversation isn't enough to enter university (which is the same for any langauge in a school worth going to I would say), it is more than enough to have a very successful life in Japan. That's the kicker about the level 1... for me anyway.

Yeah, that was pretty much what I was going for.

And 熱帯雨林 is "tropical rainforest." Don't you learn that in grade school or junior high school geography class?

I think I learned it in high school, but it's still not something that comes up in everyday conversation. I knew it meant "tropical rainforest" by the way. I just learned it recently and it stuck out in my mind as an example of a word that isn't used all the time. Maybe it was a bad example.

Anyway, point taken about the level of the language in the test. I haven't looked at a test for ESL students, so I don't have anything to compare really. But it does make sense that the entrance exams for Japanese students would be harder than the JLPT, because I imagine that there are quite a few highly specialized terms with unusual kanji (like 鳶).

I think I remember you posting something like this before now that you mention it, but ever since I heard that 一級 tests some rather obscure grammatical patterns a few years ago I haven't been able to get that thought out of my head, and actually seeing one of them has reinforced that thought. Anyway, from now on I'll do my best to keep my mouth shut about it until I've actually looked at the contents, so that I won't be relying on hearsay anymore. :relief::-)

[epigene]

Sorry if I sounded harsh, Glenn. I just don't want people to feel that 1-kyuu is unreasonably hard. It's a level that a native Japanese with high school education can attain.

I believe that 1-kyuu is required because passing it will guarantee you don't have problems keeping up with studies you do in Japanese alongside native-speaking students. I'm sure there may be trick questions as GP-san mentioned, but the thing is you need a general grasp of things on that level--after all, you don't need a perfect score (only 70%, I think) to pass! :cool:

To everyone else: My apologies for going off-topic again... :gomen:

[Elizabeth]

今、私は日本の映画が話す速すぎます。
こんにちはBuckoさん！

ところで、[話す速すぎます]という言葉はありませんね。

「日本語の映画は(話すのが)速すぎるので、言っている ことわかるのが難しです。
または、日本語の映画があまり速く話すので　私には理 解出来ません。(言葉がよく聞き取りません」。そうい� ､風に自然だと思います。 :relief:

[cursore]

I have studied Japanese for really long long long long long long time... 1 Month (ha ha)
so you can imagine I still learning the basics in Romanji... e the Kana chart

[kuramu]

どのくらい日本語を勉強しましたか？ 2年 勉強しています

私は日本の映画が話す速すぎます。 映画を 見るとき、 あまり 分かりません。 でも、 日本語の 音を 練習 聞いている 出来ます。 時々、 人物は もっと ゆっくり 映画に 話しました。 例えば、Shall We Dansu に、 田村 先生は よくて、 ゆっくり 話しました。 そのとき、 ちょっと、 分かりますね。

ところで、日本に行きましたか？行きますか？ 日本へ 行った ことが ありません。 もちろん、 いつか 日本へ 行きたい。 でも、 二、三年 待たないと いけない。

[GaijinPunch]

I'm sure any student keeping up with their ciriculum (and certainly those busting themselves for their juken) have everything the 1-kyuu offers, and more. But on that note, I've had countless Japanese laugh at my 1-kyuu texts. They've ranged from housewife, to computer programmer at foreign securities firm.

[Gaijinian]

1) How you got to where you are
2) What you can currently do
3) What you want to be able to do soon

1.Internet, books, talking to a native speaker whenever I have the chance.. Oh yeah, and having conversations with my self in Japanese...
Ilearned kanji first (about 600 to begin with), then let my sepaking ability cetch up.
:blush:
2. read just over 1,000 kanji, convey what I want to say (although usually with grammar mistakes), as far as 日常会話, I'm fine, but anything beyond that...

3. すぐ留学生になるので、たつ１年間の中、新聞を読んで いても困らないで理解できるようになりたいな〜と思い ますね。後は、発音を改善できたらいいんですが……。 電話をしていると、相手の日本人には外国人ですってこ と、知らせないくらい、日常会話の文法を学びたいって いうのも目的ですね〜
頑張ります！笑

[Glenn]

Sorry if I sounded harsh, Glenn. I just don't want people to feel that 1-kyuu is unreasonably hard. It's a level that a native Japanese with high school education can attain.

分かりました。謝ることはないんですよ。 :bow:

1.Internet, books, talking to a native speaker whenever I have the chance.. Oh yeah, and having conversations with my self in Japanese...
Ilearned kanji first (about 600 to begin with), then let my sepaking ability cetch up.
:blush:
2. read just over 1,000 kanji, convey what I want to say (although usually with grammar mistakes), as far as 日常会話, I'm fine, but anything beyond that...

3. すぐ留学生になるので、たつ１年間の中、新聞を読んで いても困らないで理解できるようになりたいな〜と思い ますね。後は、発音を改善できたらいいんですが……。 電話をしていると、相手の日本人には外国人ですってこ と、知らせないくらい、日常会話の文法を学びたいって いうのも目的ですね〜
頑張ります！笑

Wow, that sounds a lot like me. I got off to a later start, though.

特に外人イアンさんのやれるようになりたいことが私の とほとんど同じですよ。いつ留学するつもりなんですか 。私は来年の八月から甲南大学で留学したいんですよ。 甲南と桜美林（おびりん）の中だけから選べるようなの で、神戸の方が面白いかなぁと思って、甲南にしました 。でも、まだ申し込んでいないのでできるかどうかはま だ決まっていないんですよね。

ところで私には外人イアンさんの日本語は上手で自然み たいですよ。でも、私は日本語が母国語じゃないので・ ・・

で、私も頑張ります！

[Gaijinian]

いつ留学するつもりなんですか。私は来年の八月から甲 南大学で留学したいんですよ。
Glennさんと一緒、来年の８月に留学してくるつもりな� �ですよ！
でも、まだ申し込んでいないのでできるかどうかはま だ決まっていないんですよね。
いつまでに申し込まなければならなんでしょう？やっぱ り最終期限があるんだろうね・・・。


ところで私には外人イアンさんの日本語は上手で自然み たいですよ。でも、私は日本語が母国語じゃないので・ ・・

で、私も頑張ります！

ありがとうございます！私も日本語が母国語じゃないか ら分かりにくいんですが、Glennさんの日本語もとって� 燻ｩ然ですね！

じゃ、一緒にガンバりましょう！
（ところで、どこに留学するのか決められたら、Glenn� ｳんに教えておいていたら会えるようになりますね）

[Glenn]

Ｇｌｅｎｎさんと一緒、来年の８月に留学してくるつも りなんですよ！

いつまでに申し込まなければならなんでしょう？やっぱ り最終期限があるんだろうね・・・。

来年の三月何日に満期になります。時間がまだたっぷり あるんですね。そうかと言って、遊んでばかりいたり、 何もしなかったりするわけにもいかないんですね。

ありがとうございます！私も日本語が母国語じゃないか ら分かりにくいんですが、Ｇｌｅｎｎさんの日本語もと っても自然ですね！

そんなことはないんですよ。 :blush::bluush:

じゃ、一緒にガンバりましょう！
（ところで、どこに留学するのか決められたら、Ｇｌｅ ｎｎさんに教えておいていたら会えるようになりますね ）

はい、一緒にがんばります。

そうですね。じゃ、その時までね！