America Should Get Out of Japan, Now!!!

[Blue Tiger]

First, I will say that Japan brought its problems on itself, when it bombed Pearl Harbor. Also, Japan had no business invading China, Okinawa, the Philippines, and the numerous other countries. Also, Japan was guilty of attrocities toward civilians and prisoners of war.

As much as some of you irrationally hate America, America saved Japan from a real hell--being taken over by the former Soviet Union! Plus, unlike any other war victor in all of history--America gave you your country back. Plus, America gave you billions of dollars in aid to develop into a major economic power, modernizing your infrastructure, such that--in many ways, such as in the steel industry--it surpassed the U.S.

Now, it is a new century in a new millenium. It is time for the U.S. military to pull out of Japan and South Korea, where they are hated by the people. It is time for free Asian countries to determine their own futures and directions. It is time for free Asian countries to deal with the very real menace of China, together and to form their own alliances.

I am a left-wing liberal, and George W. Bush is not my president. That fool is NOT my leader! Finally, the American people--according to the latest polls--are awakening to what I knew when the first Bush was president. HE AND HIS CRIMINAL GANG CAN'T BE TRUSTED!

My wife is from Taiwan, and I fear for her family. I fear that Bush and his global corporate (that Japanese corporations) will secretly sell the free independent nation of Taiwan to Communist China, and that the communists will execute millions of Taiwanese as a lesson to those in China who desire freedom and human rights.

Global corporations cannot be trusted to protect their citizens. Being global means that they are loyal only to profits. Whether American, Japanese, British, or German, the corporate leaders have no alligences to people or to countries. The power elite can choose where to live. But, whether they are eaten by bigger predators...that is outside of our lowly influence.

The U.S. should get the hell out of Japan and South Korea. The American people's standard of living is rapidly declining. We can no longer afford a military to protect others. Japan and Germany has had the great luxury of America's protection, being able to invest in a profitable infrastructure, in the development of factories at America's expense.

Japan has long surpassed America in quality automobiles, consumer electronics, cameras, etc. Japan has gone from copying to innovating. Those are achievements that are evidence that Japan can easily surpass China militarily. And make no mistake about it, China's goal is to destroy both Japan and Taiwan! And America!

If you haven't noticed, in China's media, the anti-Japan jingoism and stirring its people to a war fever-pitch against China, with the daily demands for apologies for WWII attrocities, then you are hopelessly naive and dead to reality.

As I have emphasized: Japan cannot count on America, not on this administration for protection. Japan has to aggressively take on its own protection or face being secretly sold to China!

[RockLee]

Wow, almost sounds like a SF-novel.:souka:
Aren't those wild speculations :? Maybe too wild.

[Blue Tiger]

There are times that reality is stranger than fiction. It is all too true that China of pouring far more money into developing its military--a truly offensive military--than any other country, including the U.S.

Not long ago, General Zhu of China threatened a massive launch of nuclear missles on the U.S., if the U.S. interferes WHEN China attacks Taiwan. The general's remarks were not a slip of the tongue, nor was it not without prior knowledge by the civilian leadership.

In China, the military takes all final presidence in policy.

And that piece of crap, George W. Bush, is on his way to China, as a part of his Asian tour to get away from the heat he is taking at home! :p

[ArmandV]

I am a left-wing liberal, and George W. Bush is not my president. That fool is NOT my leader! Finally, the American people--according to the latest polls--are awakening to what I knew when the first Bush was president. HE AND HIS CRIMINAL GANG CAN'T BE TRUSTED!



The above paragraph explains it all. Sorry, Charlie, foreign policy can't be run by opinion polls. Do you think swell guys like Kim Chung "Mentally" Il of North Korea wouldn't try to take advantage of the vacuum left by a U.S. withdrawl? Somebody's living in a dream world.

[lexico]

Whether Bush's US or some other's, war means business, and more export of US produced goods contributing to US GDP figures. Wouldn't that be worth a little bit of blood spilt overseas wherever so long as US casualties are minimal in comparison ?

Taiwan, as a hot spot, will remain intact for the risks of losing trust are too high.
Japan should not have touched it in 1874 and 1895.
Look what a big mess; but does Japan care to offer aid in a peaceful compromise between the divided people of mainland and the Taiwanese ?
What about the other minorities that were subjected to discrimination and genocidal policies of Imperial Japan ? Before Japan can appeal for pity, should it not act in accordance to the idea of mutual respect and reparing it wrongs like a responsible body of civilised people ?

Japan's 1874 Expedition to Taiwan (http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/107.2/ah0202000388.html) ROBERT ESKILDSEN
In search of a lost cultural treasure Part 1 (http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=5241) Kenny Ehman

[ArmandV]

Whether Bush's US or some other's, war means business, and more export of US produced goods contributing to US GDP figures. Wouldn't that be worth a little bit of blood spilt overseas wherever so long as US casualties are minimal in comparison ?


You think that's the reason for war? What a ridiculous statement!

[kirei_na_me]

It really bothers me when people say war is good for business. A lot of my friends say that. And "as long as US casualties are minimal in comparison?"? I might be in the minority, but I don't want any casualties. I don't want casualties for us and don't want us causing anyone else casualties.

Maybe that's a really unrealistic view, though. I'm such a pacifist. :p

[kokusu]

First, having the U.S. stationed in Japan is part of Japan's defense/military strategy. So, when it is argued that the U.S. should get out of Japan so that Japan can freely come up with its only military defense strategy, I argue that Japan already has come up with a defense strategy: rely on the U.S.!:lol:

And, really, this is absolutely a smart thing, too! Consider:

1) If the U.S. pulled out of Japan and left Japan's regional security concerns up to Japan itself to fulfill, Japan would inarguably have to increase the size and strength of its military. This, would exacerbate versus alleviate regional tensions, as very few of Japan's neighbors want a militarily stronger Japan.

2) Form a regional alliance to counterbalance China with who?!? Both Korea's, Russia, Viet Nam, Pakistan, and numerous other regional powers are distrustful of Japan (for more information on why, go get a history book about WWII).

3) The U.S. has its own regional concerns in Asia. A U.S. presence insures involvement and a modicum of stability (realist school of political theory). Let's not forget that despite recent troubles, the U.S. is still the big kid on the international playground. Sometimes the big kid can make the other kids toe the line. Besides, if, as you say, everyone hates the U.S., if you are Japan, wouldn't you want a U.S. presence in Asia to take some of the heat off yourself???

The U.S. really has too much vested interest in the region to just let Japan get demolished if things came to blows (for example, commercial trade, computer technologies, Pinky ST. collectible figures :blush: ). This being regardless of whichever idiot happens to be in the White House.

Japan has long surpassed America in quality automobiles, consumer electronics, cameras, etc. Japan has gone from copying to innovating. Those are achievements that are evidence that Japan can easily surpass China militarily.

Let me get this straight: Japan makes really good cameras and video games so they could easily clobber China in a miltary conflict? Are you freakin' kidding me? Does a population of 120 million versus 1.5 billion come into play anywhere in your thinking? I mean, that's a lot of rolls of film to shoot if you are Japan . . .:souka:

And make no mistake about it, China's goal is to destroy both Japan and Taiwan! And America!

Riiight . . . because they don't want to have markets to sell to. And because they don't want any more U.S. grain to help feed their swollen population. And because why retake control of Taiwan when you can really prove your point and just wipe it off the map?
And, hey, why stop with Japan, Taiwan, and the U.S.? I bet China just wants to destroy the whole world . . .:evil:

AUGH!!! This is the nuttiest thread . . .:auch: :lol:

[lastmagi]

If you want to see crazy-destructive power, check this out.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27590

Where did he get such power?

[Akakubisan]

I am a left-wing liberal, and George W. Bush is not my president. That fool is NOT my leader! Finally, the American people--according to the latest polls--are awakening to what I knew when the first Bush was president. HE AND HIS CRIMINAL GANG CAN'T BE TRUSTED!


I like that, it's almost funny. Unfortunately the U.S. is a democracy and if you are a U.S. citizen BUSH is your president. If you don't like that then you can fix that in 2008 with the next election. It's called voting.

[mobeen]

I definately think America should pull out of japan and i am pray that one day they do. The Bush hiearchy is coming to a collapse. If you live in the US and flip to the news channels you hear that democrats and now even republicans are against the president on the iraq war and now more americans are aware than before. I think this will definately affect the positions of american soldiers in all countries. Not only japan.

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

Yes, the USA has no business in Asia and yes, Bush is a megalomaniac and I wouldn't trust him with anything least of all my country or anyone else's. The US should have been out of Asia a long time ago but now there's a problem keeping it from leaving. Because the US did not leave when it should it's stayed in so long that dependency has built up and as someone pointed out the huge gap in security that would happen after the US pulled out would get taken advantage of causing the very thing we're trying to avoid here. War in Asia. So it's a lose/lose situation. If the US stays Asia loses and if it leaves Asia still loses.
The US SHOULD have long ago allowed Japan to defend itself by itself, slowly building back up it's strength enough so that it would not get crushed once the US pulled out. But the US government is made up of power hungry, bickering, politicians who in all honesty don't give a damn. The US has become greedy and quite comfortable with it's little nest it's made itself in Asia, it's extortion. What started as a means of protection has turned into the very thing it was originally designed to protect against. The US has become the very kind of nation that it's supposed to stand against. We've becoming flaming control freaks. We're using our positions in Asia and around the world not for the countries' protection but our on profit. For some reason the US seems to think that everything other countries do is our business and that we should have a say in it. Wrong. But now the threat of a real problem in Asia is surfacing and the US is stuck in it's own glue. It's going to be a real mess if something doesn't change soon. The problem is that were politics is concerned nothing in the way of a change like this happens quickly. Because the process gets bogged down by the stupid politicians who as a law of nature cannot agree on anything. So by the time the USA gets it's s**t together it'll probably be way, way too late.
I'm not completely sure what I just said made any sense at all but oh well. I'm tired and I'm so sick of this whole situation and the world's stupidity in gen.

[Uncle Frank]

to see what would happen if the US pulled out of South Korea. I wonder how long it would take for the North's army to move into our abandoned bases? I think they call such things "power vacumes" ?

Frank

:souka:

[lastmagi]

But the US government is made up of power hungry, bickering, politicians who in all honesty don't give a damn. The US has become greedy and quite comfortable with it's little nest it's made itself in Asia, it's extortion. What started as a means of protection has turned into the very thing it was originally designed to protect against. The US has become the very kind of nation that it's supposed to stand against. We've becoming flaming control freaks.

I'm starting to think (well, I've been thinking for a while, actually) that the whole world is undergoing some new Dark Age, what with leaders like Bush and Koizumi running around.

[Doc]

I'm starting to think (well, I've been thinking for a while, actually) that the whole world is undergoing some new Dark Age, what with leaders like Bush and Koizumi running around.

That is why I say McCain should have been President. At least he is a man who cares about his country, its people, and the world's interest for that matter, plus he is a Republican too! He believes we need to stop oil consumption, save the envirnoment, stop depending on China, and various other apects that both the world and America are concerned with. Oh well at least the problems will not last that much longer. With the heat on the White House in full swing, I have the funny feeling Bush is going to get impeached before the end of his second term. Hey we should do it like what Al Frankin suggested. Elect the new Congress in 2007, have them in session in 2008 just two weeks before the new President takes office (which will be a Democrat no doubt), impeach Bush and get him fired, arrested, and started drinking again in the same afternoon.

Doc :wave:

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. Too bad it isn't that simple. *sighs*

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I feel extremely sorry for the poor people from Iraq, they pay the bill of this horrible war in their own country. When I see Iraq on TV I could really cry for all those poor people overthere. They have every right to hate us all.

I often wish that the government of my country (The Netherlands) had been so wise as the French, German, Belgium and the Spanish governments, they refused to join Mr.G.W.Bush.
We have enough troubles in Europe, let's mind our own business.

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

Amen! It makes me physically sick when I see or hear about Iraq. That's why I've stopped watching TV and reading the Newspaper.

[Doc]

I feel extremely sorry for the poor people from Iraq, they pay the bill of this horrible war in their own country.

Actually we are the ones who have to pay for the bill. Once our troops pull out there is going to be god only knows hundreds of billions of dollars to be spent just to help build up Iraq's economy so they can get out of the rut of being a third world country. We have already spent over $321 billion just to help build up their military, and a grand total of over $500 billion just to help rebuild cities, the governement, the economy, and the suffering of all the vicitims and their families over there. So I would not be so quick to judge that once America pulls out of Iraq that the Iraqi people are on their own. We are going to have to help support them for probably 20-50 more years down the road politically and economically to help their country. Guess who has to pay for all of that? The taxpayers that's who. Now while most Americans would gladly help Iraq, you have to keep in mind that our defecit is the highest this country has seen. Plus we have to help restore Louisana, and all the areas ruined during Hurricane Katrina and Rita. What I am getting to is that all of this activity is exhausting the United States and we are going to end up like Europe if do not watch it.

You also have to keep in mind that Bush did not give Congress all the intelligence that they wanted when deciding to invade Iraq. Bush gets all of the intelligence information before anybody else does, and decides on what Congress should hear and not hear. While they heard that Saddam had WMDs (he has for over 20 years and if you do not think so then you have another thing coming), it is just that the intelligence was some of the worst intelligence ever. The document proving that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 was a forged letter from an Italian. Everything else is on the word of a drunkard and other piss poor intelligence. So should America have gone in there? No. Should we pull out. Absolutely. Should we do it now. No. We have to finish what we started, and that is going to take time. BTW why are we grilling Bush anyway? I think the person we need to be complaining about the most here is Chaney. That jerkoff is the reason why we are in this war in the first place. He has spread more lies, slander, and inaccurate information to get America in this war that he is worse than Bush, but just does not come off of as much.

Personally I think Bush just wanted to finish what his Daddy started, but that is just me. Also whether you agree or not, Saddam did need to be taken out of power. The man was evil and raped, tortured, gased, executed, and god only knows what else to his own people. However, I really do not think he was the next Hitler. If anything I think we should be worrying about the psychos in Africa, Europe, and Asia more than anything. Better yet I think we should be worrying about our own people first. This world's police crap has got to stop. However, I would like to point out that when we do isolate ourselves from the world who comes crying to us when terrorism or something else horrible has run amok? Us that's who. Maybe we should start declining to help everybody in the world, maybe then you would change your attitude about America being an evil country. Look all I am saying is that Congress and the White House started this mess, and it has come down the American people wanting to fix this. Hey we are just as much victims as everybody else is, just not such an extreme scale that's all.

I cannot wait until Bush is out of office. You do release a Democrat will get in, and Congress will have a major overhaul too. It is just going to be funny to watch the Republicans implode before the next general election. The burracracy is just horrible anymore in this country. No wonder people do not vote anymore (although I think if you do not vote on the people who should be in office then you are an idiot for thinking that not voting is going to make a world of difference). Campaign ads are ruthless anymore, and politicians will do anything for money. You know maybe things should more like Missouri where the people elect the politician based on merit and not by who has the best political stance. Maybe then we might get something done in this country. *sigh* Bottom line is the whole issue is a giant mess, and Bush going to other countries looking for support when everybody in his own country hates him isn't helping much. (He has spent less time at the White House than any other president in our history. Not only that, but you think a 36% approval rating might suggesting something, especially for Congress with theirs in the mid to low 20's.) He shouldn't have told off the UN, the EU, or NATO for doing what he wanted to do. I think that is reason enough to show that we will never elect another president from Texas for another 250 years. People just need to take action in this country, otherwise nothing will ever get done.

Doc :wave:

[Pachipro]

Unfortunately the U.S. is a democracy and if you are a U.S. citizen BUSH is your president.
Contrary to what most people think the US is NOT a democracy. It is a Representative Republic as the forefathers wanted. A goverment by the people for the people. Unfortunately most people don't realize that today. In the Pledge of Alligence is the line "And to the Republic for which it stands..." How many times have you heard a politician refer to the US as a Republic? Almost never. And it is scary.

On the other hand a democracy is just mob rule. Is that what we are exporting to other countries? Mob rule?

[Doc]

And do not forget the first lines of the United States of America's Consitiution.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this CONSTITUTION for the United States of America."

What does that tell you? That we the American people are the governement, and elect people by the people to help ensure to keep the governement (the American people) in order and running. Yet instead we have let our power as the governement go to the elected officials instead and have become their slave, rather than them doing what we say. Isn't it ironic? In crude terms I want the government to be my ***** like it was, not the other way around. The buracracy has got to stop, or at least be lessened. Anyway kudos to you Pachipro for pointing out that we are indeed a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC not a democracy, as you pointed out mob rule never works (like with Rome). There is to the reason why we are a republic, but I think that civics lesson if for another time. :-)

Doc :wave:

[Ma Cherie]

Here's another problem, Bush has also kept the white house isolated. My Political Science professor has pointed out that he doesn't read newspapers, books, and it doesnt' seem like he seeks outside sources on pretty much everything (that would explain why he ignored those economists on the issue of tax cuts :kaioken: ). It also seems that he's only oppointing people that would appeal to his conservative base. So, there goes the diversity.:okashii: And he appoints people he knows, (i.e. the head of FEMA, Harriet Miers, etc.). To me, those people are nothing but cronies. Yeah, I know this is a bit off topic:sorry:

[Doc]

Unlike most administrations, it is said that this administration knows the answer to everything before it is even asked. Hell they don't even have any meetings to discuss issues! You see the Bush administration has had an agenda since day one, and they have been following through this agenda despite national and international protest. I think you have to keep in mind that Bush really is not pulling all the strings here. It is a few higher ups in the administration running the show. We need to start focusing our attention on the administration as a whole rather than just the President. I think only then will you get to bottom of all of this.

Doc :wave:

[nurizeko]

China, Japan, and America are so economically involved and heavily invested in each other that a war with each other would see the economic ruin of all 3 countries.
Its no secret that economics and trade are much more desirable in this day and age then petty old-school land-grabs.

Taiwan is part of china, say what you will, most taiwanese are chinese, many of them are of mainland origin, infact, all if your willing to allow them to trace as far back as the first chinese settlers.
If you pay attention to chinese history its no suprise the mainland china holds a firm claim over taiwan, in effect it could be argued china and taiwan are still in a state of civil war, ever since the communists and nationalists first started fighting.

In regards to japan invading okinawa, if i remember correctly, okinawa is part of japan.
It was part of japan lnog before the war and continues to be so now, bar the breif period of american administration.

In short, american bases, though probably unwanted by a number of japanese, are in japan for a reason or two, and are better off there then gone, likewise, china isnt on the verge of conquering the world, pay less attention to taiwan propaganda Tv or something and and spend more on you know, reality.

[Mike Cash]

In short, american bases, though probably unwanted by a number of japanese, are in japan for a reason or two

Let's strive for a little consistency. Didn't I just read in another thread your blanket statement that the Japanese all want the bases gone, yet the Japanese government ignores the wishes of the entire voting nation?

[Carlson]

First, I will say that Japan brought its problems on itself, when it bombed Pearl Harbor. Also, Japan had no business invading China, Okinawa, the Philippines, and the numerous other countries. Also, Japan was guilty of attrocities toward civilians and prisoners of war.

im not going to bother giving a long speach... just going to say that Japan has done nothing that America has not done or any other super power in the past.

[jonerik]

Pulling American forces out of Asia would be enormously destabilizing for the entire region. At a minimum Japan would feel obliged to beef up its navy so it could defend its trade routes. And regardless of the justification in doing so, the political facts of life are that no other country in that part of the world would be particularly happy to see Japan increase military spending. Life with the American military has certainly been something of a mixed blessing, but the fact remains that South Korea and Japan have been able to enjoy peace and prosperity for decades; partly because the North Koreans, the Soviets/Russians, and the Chinese haven't been in a big hurry to antagonize the United States by threatening its two main allies in the region. The departure of American forces in the region would create an enormous power vacuum that either the Chinese or the Russians (or both) would be more than happy to fill - with results that would probably be somewhat less welcome to the Japanese, the South Koreans, or even the US's onetime foes in Vietnam.

[Sukotto]

Before I read anybody else's posts,

I would guess at least part of China's tuff-guy b.s.
has to do with the current government of Japan becoming
more militaristic. Koizumi supports the Bush teams adventure
into Iraq (though from what I hear, most Japanese citizens
do not); the proposed alteration of Japan's pacifist constitution
that declares it not to be a right of the state to settle international
disputes with force; and while I probably shouldn't comment on it
because I'm not very read up on it - maybe something with that
Shrine the current PM keeps visiting but the Emperor does not even though
I think I heard its on the palace grounds.




I would defer to the "Japan Policy Research Insitute"
http://www.jpri.org/

They focus on US policy towards not only Japan, but
also China, the Koreas, that part of the world generally,
and they receive no government or corporate funding.

Other than that, keep learning about the world and discussing...
blah, blah, blah....


Personally I don't think N Korea is a threat.
It's been noted by Korean scholars and observers that they
don't think Kim Jong Ill is suicidal.
What would NKorea have gain by invading either Japan or S Korea?
The latter which they had been making exchanges with all by
their loansome in the later 90s.

[suirai]

Personally I don't think N Korea is a threat.

The primary reason that the DPRK is not a threat is because they don't have the petroleum it takes to flex their vast military forces. A modern fighting machine runs on its fuel supply, and then its stomach. Sorry Napoleon, times change.

Anyway, Napoleon knew he needed those many horses he had before he fed his troopers. His horses didn't go hungry.


.

[Sukotto]

There are times that reality is stranger than fiction. It is all too true that China of pouring far more money into developing its military--a truly offensive military--than any other country, including the U.S.



You should take a look US policy.


1st of all, the US spends more than all other countries combined.

--The US now has, as policy, the prevent any other power to even ATTEMPT
to increase its military any where close to that of the US
--The US has plans to militarize space (despite being a signatory
to a treaty to keep space free from militarization)
--The US's plans to develop its "missile defense system"
starwarsJR is an offensive weapon to protect 'forward projected
forces'.


Democracy Now! carried a 1 hour documentary titled
"Preventive Warriors"
It will give you the willies.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/30/1333210
or
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/27/154222

[suirai]

Considering that communications is vital to maintaining and using a military force space was "militarized" the moment a communications device was placed in orbit.

Let's see, how many nations have a communications device "up there"?

Japan?

Ah, let's see now. I think so. Yep, they sure do.

Anybody have a device for taking pictures?

Japan?

Ah, let's see now. I think so. Yep, they sure do.

Any other countries have any devices up there for communications or shooting pretty pictures?

Ah, let's see now. I think so. Yep, a whole bunch do.

First device into space was ole` Sput-baby. Now that was purely for non-political, non-military purposes, yes?

Right! Absolutely! Sput-baby was put up there simply for the fun of it.

Come on, folks! No military use of space? Right!

[suirai]

Oh yeah, I forgot all about GPS. Even those nations that had nothing to do with putting that in space use it for military purposes.

[Cupid]

Blue Tiger... you're talking out of your ass.

Either go back to school and study history, politics and international relations (preferably all at the same time), subscribe to Janes Defence (did you seriously believe China has a capacity to wage war in the pacific let alone launch an attack on mainland USA?) OR go and write your Sci-Fi fiction about your pefect world and come back when you're finished so you can legitimately flaunt your fantasy about who did what to who and when and what's going to happen next.

I don't object to what you write.. I just think you should start every post you write with "This is just a fairy tale I made up.".

[d3jake]

If I reacll correctly we already had this conversation a while back...

[moffeltoff]

The only place american soldiers belong is America itｴs as easy as that. =)
No country actually needs America to "protect" them ,if they want help they will ask the Nato.But as you can read in my signature I am quite glad that I donｴt really have to much sympathy for someone who thinks a country is ungratefull if it isnｴt gratefull about help it nether needed nor wanted. :D

[suirai]

The only place american soldiers belong is America itｴs as easy as that. =)
No country actually needs America to "protect" them ,if they want help they will ask the Nato.But as you can read in my signature I am quite glad that I donｴt really have to much sympathy for someone who thinks a country is ungratefull if it isnｴt gratefull about help it nether needed nor wanted. :D
Interesting view. I'm trying to remember what the nations of Europe did to stop the massacres that took place as Jugoslavija broke up. That was certainly within the jurisdication of NATO, wasn't it? For that matter, NATO wasn't necessary at all. Any number of the European nations could have stepped in to save lives and put a halt to what some firmly believe was the worst slaughter of innocents in Europe since WWII.

[Cupid]

Interesting view. I'm trying to remember what the nations of Europe did to stop the massacres that took place as Jugoslavija broke up. That was certainly within the jurisdication of NATO, wasn't it? For that matter, NATO wasn't necessary at all. Any number of the European nations could have stepped in to save lives and put a halt to what some firmly believe was the worst slaughter of innocents in Europe since WWII.

Am I missing something here?

What would be the economic benefit to Europe in preventing a bunch of rabid towlheads and barbarians from slaughtering each other?

The US only stepped in because they need a live firing range to practice on prior to the invasion of Iraq. I also don't recall uncle sam's warriors trying too hard to distinguish between tractors towing trailors full of inocent refugees versus bosnian amoured personell carriers full of blood-thirsty rapists and murderers.

[suirai]

Am I missing something here?
What would be the economic benefit to Europe in preventing a bunch of rabid towlheads and barbarians from slaughtering each other?
The US only stepped in because they need a live firing range to practice on prior to the invasion of Iraq. I also don't recall uncle sam's warriors trying too hard to distinguish between tractors towing trailors full of inocent refugees versus bosnian amoured personell carriers full of blood-thirsty rapists and murderers.
Could you please post a link or links to support your claims. Thank you.

[suirai]

And such vocabulary as "tow[e]lheads" is really, really disgusting.

[Cupid]

And such vocabulary as "tow[e]lheads" is really, really disgusting.

Not as disgusting as dropping missiles on a wedding party in Afghanistan or attracting small children with lollies as a shield against insurgents in Bagdad.

[Cupid]

Could please post a link or links to support your claims. Thank you.

I'm talking abou the real world...not everything exisit on the Internet. Next thing we'll be talking about the "Word of God" again.

[gaijinalways]

Hmm, I'm not sure if this is sci-fi or just a scenario that is likely a long way off in the future. Currently China's military still has a long way to be fully modernized. Most people realize, whether you have a military background or are a military research expert, that current armies need air support and are more likley to use high tech weaponry, including missle strikes. Taking out terrorists or guerillas is one thing (difficult to eradicate if you can't find them), but defeating visable armies is another. Of course, distance is a factor, but at the moment, China is far from being ready to invade Taiwan, never mind Japan.

The US probably should pull out of the bases and let Japan deal with it, but they should probably do it slowly to avoid

1) mass numbers of soldiers out of work and having to adjust to the private workforce demands

2) a power vacuum in Asia (instead allowing Japan time to buils up an adequate military

3) economic changes in Japan in the areas affected by the bases being transformed

Remember, Japan doesn't need to equal China in numbers, they need to fight smarter. The Israelis were outnumbered on all sides in the past, they are still there. They very quickly beat off superior numbers with better strategy and tactics and they ended up taking territory! Of course, Japan shouldn't just depend on another divine wind like the one that took out the Mongols.

[suirai]

[QUOTE=Cupid]I'm talking abou the real world...not everything exisit on the Internet. Next thing we'll be talking about the "Word of God" again.[/QUOTE

[moffeltoff]

Still the fact remains ,that America continuosly uses itｴs military power to press their opinion on the rest of the world.

[suirai]

I'm talking abou the real world...not everything exisit on the Internet. Next thing we'll be talking about the "Word of God" again.

Cupid, you were specifically responding to one of my messages, so just where did you see me post anything anywhere in this thread about anything related to God?

The answer is I haven't.

So how about you show a bit of the maturity you advised another to show and not be putting words in a fellow forumer's/forumite's mouth. That's rude. Very rude.


.................................................. .................................................. ....
And something else, when you advise someone to go get an education you might want to be a little more careful about the grammar you use in that post. You don't help your case when you don't seem to know how to use an objective form when it's called for.

[Sukotto]

The primary reason that the DPRK is not a threat is because they don't have the petroleum it takes to flex their vast military forces. A modern fighting machine runs on its fuel supply, and then its stomach. Sorry Napoleon, times change.
Anyway, Napoleon knew he needed those many horses he had before he fed his troopers. His horses didn't go hungry.
.


Threat vs potential threat.

Perhaps I was not quite exact in my wording.

I suppose any country with any amount of military is "a threat".
Especially if one views it through the warped prism of US 'security'
policy - that of not even allowing any country to even attempt
to get close to any where near the US in military might.
If given that, then yes, any country that increases its military in
any amount, is by definition a threat.


But, back to the real world.
In which the United States is the United States (50 states and the
people - that actually make up a country), and not, say,
US "interests". Read : investements. Even Republican Rep Ron Paul
of Texas recognizes the code word of "interests". It is always somebodies interests. And he's not even an anarchist, who usually say that
governments represent some sort of domestic power structure. He's
a Republican, although with Libertarian leanings.
i digress.


petro - who's going to give it to them?
Probably no one.
...and that's where the nuclear fuel comes in.
...and the denying of nuclear fuel to N Korea.

Even if N Korea had such fuel,
The horses to invade another country,
why would they? Just because one has the ability to do something,
doesn't mean they will do it. Kim Jong Ill, with his rad hair, goofy shoes,
and hobby of movie obsession, doesn't make him suicidal.


But again,
missing the fact that South Korea & North Korea were making peace
all by themselves, on their own terms at the end of the 90s.
Working together to reunite family members that hadn't seen each other
in decades. Building business ties. Cultural exchanges.
But, no...., Madeline Albright (the Clinton administration) had to swoop
in there quickly as if to say, 'oh, no. Not without us. Not unless it is
on our terms.' How goofy and unfortunate to place something
as lame as hegemony above another, even single life.





---
edit add on--
I don't remember the numbers, but it is estimated that x millions
or however many people would die in the first weeks of fighting alone
if the Koreas fought. Something I doubt either side would goofy enough
to place their egos on.

N Korea spending of 20%-25% of its GNP (according to wikipedia's
"Korean People's Army" page) on military IS plain mad,
but so is spending 1/2 of total discretionary spending on current
and past military (not including extra off budget spending for Iraq & Afghanistan) http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

or

* The seven potential "enemies," (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria), plus Russia and China together spend $117 billion, less than 30% of the U.S. military budget.

--from World Military Expenditures from the Center for Defense Information (CDI) and their Miltary Spending: U.S. vs the World table.
via website http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=518


So....,
it does not even enter into one's mind the possibility
that countries, such as North Korea, might be stock piling weapons
for defense?

[Sukotto]

I like that, it's almost funny. Unfortunately the U.S. is a democracy and if you are a U.S. citizen BUSH is your president. If you don't like that then you can fix that in 2008 with the next election. It's called voting.



I"m not so sure that will work...

Journalist
http://www.gregpalast.com/
has done some research to dispute the claim to presidency in '00 or '08.
You can watch videos that are linked from the top of that page.

[nurizeko]

Let's strive for a little consistency. Didn't I just read in another thread your blanket statement that the Japanese all want the bases gone, yet the Japanese government ignores the wishes of the entire voting nation?

Nope, i dont get your point, many japanese still dont want them, but thats different from recognising their there for a reason.

You seem to have this opinion i oppose these bases and want them gone, i dont, as i think ive said before, im british, i couldnt give two s***s about american bases in some foreign country, i just recognise people there arent happy about it.

im not going to bother giving a long speach... just going to say that Japan has done nothing that America has not done or any other super power in the past.

I have to agree, for some reason the whiping out of a people, stealing their lands, and putting the survivors in reservations doesnt seem to register as the horrible crime against humanity and ethnic cleansing it was.
When you think about that, suddenly japans war-crimes look a little less unique.


On topic of US pre-emtive strike, then how come the US is attacking china? or the new europe? europe is (unfortunately) on the slippery road to federal state, which means it can out-gun america.

Iran has threatened the west yet america doesnt do anything, its actually waiting on the UN.

Honestly i dont think the US can do anything and thats why they wait, Bush made mistakes because hes a ***** and he left his brain...somewhere, it depends if he ever developed one, but i think present history is more the mistakes of a idealistic mistaken US leadership, dealing with the end of american world supremacy, it will be a slow downhill fall but i think america has exhausted its artificial leap to power post WW2, after all, its kinda easy to become dominant if your country is not only intact but geared up for manufacturing while the rest of the world is crumbling under war.

In short, the US is unlikely to take over the world, neither is china, and at the momment, it serves everyones overall interests for the US to maintain bases in Japan.

[d3jake]

HE AND HIS CRIMINAL GANG CAN'T BE TRUSTED!

I think an English lesson is in order...
crim·i·nal Pronunciation (krm-nl)
adj.
One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime.

Well... seems to me that you need to read this... Just once I want to see a bipartisan opinion about this, or is it only Democrats who want to hack away at the president?

I am a left-wing liberal, and George W. Bush is not my president. That fool is NOT my leader! Finally, the American people--according to the latest polls--are awakening to what I knew when the first Bush was president.

Then who is exactly. Seem to me that he is president...so therefore, (wait, I know this one!) he... is your leader!
Wow, that was certainly a hard one to come up with!

[Reiku]

im not going to bother giving a long speach... just going to say that Japan has done nothing that America has not done or any other super power in the past.

Everyone from a country that's nuked another country--twice--raise your hand.

>raises his hand, looks around guiltily<

What, no one else?

Damn!

Personally, I don't think any country's military has any buisness anywhere outside their own borders. Defend your turf, leave everyone else alone--but whose gonna' listen to me? :rolleyes:

Anyway, it's too late now--at this point the system's too broken to fix: The kids have discovered playing in the neighbor's yard, and they aren't going back--it's just that simple.

[nurizeko]

Until the neighbour calls their young grandson, slightly older then the kids, to evict them.

[Tatsuhiro_Zensu]

I agree that America should leave Japan. During WW2 Japan was amazing, but with its industrial base think what it could do now. Japan has gotten far to passive, they should return to at least some semblance of their WW2 self, only thing I would change is the atrocious human rights violations.

[Kobayashi]

that's interesting

[tatto san]

It is NOT a funny question! Very serious !:souka:
Why don't say - Americans, go home as National Movement?
Amazing.... but not so actual..... and imporant, may be...

May be, people are happy in any case....
American dream became as japanese dream ? :p
Big house, big car, a lot of money, but hard...hard...hard work of japanese salary-man ?

And, don't forget it is better for safety because of some "small and strange" N-Korean missiles.... :blush:

cheers,

[GodEmperorLeto]

I agree that America should leave Japan. During WW2 Japan was amazing, but with its industrial base think what it could do now. Japan has gotten far to passive, they should return to at least some semblance of their WW2 self, only thing I would change is the atrocious human rights violations.

It's more than just human rights violations. I disagree with a lot about Japan returning to its WW2 roots, which are, politically speaking, militarism. It was a military regime that controlled the government, effectively being a 20th-century shogunate.

However, I do agree with reverence for the emperor. I also believe that the U.S. and Japan should re-evaluate their treaty. I think we should keep a base in Okinawa, still, but it should be reduced in size and strength. And I think any re-evaluation of the U.S.-Japan accords should have the input of S. Korea, China, and Taiwan (and perhaps Russia), because any changes to the U.S.-Japan relationship will have an impact on all of the East Asian socio-political-economic sphere. They'd probably prefer the Japanese government officially renounce the Pacific War and the actions of the Japanese military government during it.

But we should definitely not simply cut and leave. Japan has been a vassal state for a long time. Such are the spoils of war. But enough time has passed for the fence to be mended formally.

[ricecake]

US troops are there to " clamp down " Japanese military force from imperial adventures outside of it's territory.

[GodEmperorLeto]

We are also there to make sure North Korea and China don't get too aggressive either. Honestly, I am more worried about North Korea than Japan.

[changedonrequest]

US troops are there to " clamp down " Japanese military force from imperial adventures outside of it's territory.

Do you actually believe that? The United States has been pushing Japan to become more active in UN Operations throughout the world, particularly after what happened during the First Gulf War.

The Japanese Consititution needs to be rewritten before Japan could legally take any offensive action anywhere.

Plus the current population doesn't look at or see the Emperor as being "divine" or otherwise and are much more educated than what they were prior to WWII, to imply that Japan has any "imperialistic" ideals is just plain ludicrous.

[Carlson]

First, having the U.S. stationed in Japan is part of Japan's defense/military strategy. So, when it is argued that the U.S. should get out of Japan so that Japan can freely come up with its only military defense strategy, I argue that Japan already has come up with a defense strategy: rely on the U.S.!:lol:


I love this man... lol

[Sukotto]

Originally Posted by kokusu
First, having the U.S. stationed in Japan is part of Japan's defense/military strategy. So, when it is argued that the U.S. should get out of Japan so that Japan can freely come up with its only military defense strategy, I argue that Japan already has come up with a defense strategy: rely on the U.S.!


I love this man... lol


I would say that is pretty much the truth.
Although, with all due respect, I do not see why any body would
invade Japan. I mean, what would they have to gain? Most
wars have resources as their underlying cause. Why did Japan invade
other countries? Resources. They don't do it just because someone
insults them or to feel good about themselves. That might be some
excuse given domestically, but... come on. Was WW1 truly about only
the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand?

[4321go]

US troops are there to " clamp down " Japanese military force from imperial adventures outside of it's territory.

Japan has the ability to rebuild its army as large as the WW2.
For its industry is so develop~
It can produce many weapons within month.

[nurizeko]

Its a safe bet to simply state that the reasons for the US being in Japan and the Japanese allowing the US there far outweigh the cons.

Though large and relatively modern, Japans military budget is fairly small, Ity essentially allows America to willingly pick up the bill for Japan's defence interests.

[Sukotto]

Its a safe bet to simply state that the reasons for the US being in Japan and the Japanese allowing the US there far outweigh the cons.


That is a matter of opinion.

Any potential cultural exchanges that might occur as a result of thousands of US citizens being there could be done outside the context of bases being there. And be cheaper too. One downside to using cultural exchange as a good thing from the bases being there is that it is predominantly young US single males that are encountered. This could make it seem like US culture is very macho and militaristic.
--Uh, wait a minute. It kind of is. I grew up on war toys, hollywood movies, video games, and such. Don't ask me how I ended up not believing in war. It just sort of happened.

[DoctorP]

maybe it is just the idea keep your friends close and your enemies closer type of thinking...maybe Japan is planning another attack?

[caster51]

U.S. Forces in Japan > America Should Get Out of Japan, Now!!!
too early...
The United States profit is to continue straining to Asia.
that is to sell the weapons.
In a word, the withdrawal of the United States increases the possibility of the Taiwan invasion of China.
It comes to throw away the United States hegemony in the Pacific Ocean, too.
Japan should do the constitutional revision.
article 9 is meaningless.

[kirby36]

The United States profit is to continue straining to Asia,that is to sell the weapons.

Japan should do the constitutional revision. article 9 is meaningless.



Are you insinuating America is the world's biggest arms merchant in Asia Pacific ? Article 9 in Japan's Constititution is mumbo jumbo of meaningless words without American military presence to enforce it.

[Mike Cash]

Article 9 in Japan's Constititution is mumbo jumbo of meaningless words without American military presence to enforce it.

Please elaborate on this seemingly nonsensical opinion. Thank you.

[Sukotto]

Why can't countries just follow the example of Costa Rica and not even have a military?

They also have a high level of literacy.

"Getting educated. That's for nerds!"

Many parts of the world think war is archaic.

"They're just wimps and don't have guts."

[moffeltoff]

Why can't countries just follow the example of Costa Rica and not even have a military?
They also have a high level of literacy.
"Getting educated. That's for nerds!"
Many parts of the world think war is archaic.
"They're just wimps and don't have guts."

You have a too one sided view on the military the military is of course yoused to kill in times of war ,or if you decide to invade a country because criminals are hiding out there and kill loads of innocent people as you will have seen very well demonstrated by the isrealy army =)
But the military also provides jobs it in some way is a social net for people to fall into if they lose their job or have a simular problem.
And it can also be very helpdfull to well soften the blow of natural disasters.

[Sukotto]

You have a too one sided view on the military the military is of course yoused to kill in times of war ,or if you decide to invade a country because criminals are hiding out there and kill loads of innocent people as you will have seen very well demonstrated by the isrealy army =)
But the military also provides jobs it in some way is a social net for people to fall into if they lose their job or have a simular problem.
And it can also be very helpdfull to well soften the blow of natural disasters.



That last sentance, not in the US...
oh, low blow.
That had more to do with politics than anything else.

If a jobs program is the excuse for maintaining a military with over 700 bases in 130 different countries and spening more than the rest of the world combined, then the US truly is bankrupt.

I might have been in the minority, but there were many even in NYCity,
but I did not believe bombing Afghanistan was a good idea.

One analyst put it this way,
would you bomb Massachusetts to get serial killer such as the Boston Strangler?



A jobs program that would involve cultural exchanges and language learning and helping to rebuild communities both in one's home country and abroad would go a far longer way towards ending terrorism & be cheaper too,
than bombing neighborhoods and creating a next generation of terrorist by default.

[Tyshepp]

Seems like some lessons in Realpoltik should be required reading. The US is not going to leave Japan anytime in the forseable future. Bigger and better ships, missiles and aircraft are on the way -- see USS GEORGE WASHINGTON, USS MUSTIN, and new sale of Patriots to GOJ.

Hells Bells -- It's cheap to have forward deployed forces when the host country picks up most of the bill. Why in the world would the US want to leave and risk such valuable sea and air trade lanes? Not gonna happen.

[Sukotto]

Seems like some lessons in Realpoltik should be required reading.



Henry Kissinger was big into this so-called "Realpoltik".

And...not many people like him.

In fact some consider him a war criminal.

The Trial of Henry Kissinger (http://www.versobooks.com/books/ghij/h-titles/hitchens_kissinger.shtml)



"Realpoltik" just means those in power don't want it.

[Tyshepp]

Dr. Henry helped defeat the USSR. And your definition of realpoltik is, well, weird. It's simply the advancement of national interest. If you don't believe national interest is "real" then plz pass me some of them drugs....

It's in the national interest of the US to keep sea and air lanes of communication (aka trade) open. Japan and the US are linked at the hip as economies. So instead of asking "should the US military leave Japan," a more appropriate question might be why would the US willing leave a forward deployed location with much of the expense born by the host nation? Don't you think it kinda helps the US deal with the few remaining communists such as N Korea and China?

Also, why would Japan want the US to leave? You don't think they like the status quo?

I'm just trying to think about this from a rational point of view...

[Sukotto]

Dr. Henry helped defeat the USSR. And your definition of realpoltik is, well, weird. It's simply the advancement of national interest. If you don't believe national interest is "real" then plz pass me some of them drugs....
It's in the national interest of the US to keep sea and air lanes of communication (aka trade) open. Japan and the US are linked at the hip as economies. So instead of asking "should the US military leave Japan," a more appropriate question might be why would the US willing leave a forward deployed location with much of the expense born by the host nation? Don't you think it kinda helps the US deal with the few remaining communists such as N Korea and China?
Also, why would Japan want the US to leave? You don't think they like the status quo?
I'm just trying to think about this from a rational point of view...


A LOT of people regardless of political persuasion don't like the good doctor.
My carreer military uncle at least read the book "The Trial of Henry Kissinger".
To be honest I do not know what he left about it, but I do know he read it.



"national interest"

according to whom?
How can nearly 300 million people have the same interests?

I'm not a Libertarian (or any party member for that matter),
but I happen to agree with Texas Republican congressman Ron Paul,
that "national interest" is always somebody's interests.

It has been noted that governments are the representation of domestic power structures. Who has the power in the US? I would answer the corporations. Those that wish to maintain their legal privaleges that the corporate legal construct allows them. Furthermore, in foreign policy - of the US - corporate interests are favored above all else. US foreign policy is and has been about shoving the corporation down other country's throats.
The corporation is a legal entity, not a force of nature like a regular business, say owned by your mom or dad, sister or brother, neighbor, etc...
When a business or whatever is incorporated, that is granted a license or charter from the state, it operates with various privaleges that are just that - privaleges, not rights. Limited liability is one such privalege. Limited liability is not a right. Slave owners and kings thought they had limited liability granted by god. They were wrong.

Other peoples have the right to make their own laws, including not only not constructing such legal entities, but also not allowing corporations from other countries to operate in their countries at all.



While I can appreciate the concern over any type of rule by the few such as China or North Korea, I do not believe they want to try to 'take over the world, let alone their neighbors. South Koreans ceratinly feel this way about North Korea and were even trying to re-connect with their brethern at the end of the 90s and even up to when the US gov't came up with the phrase 'axis of evil'.


So no I do not believe the US should maitain over 700 known & acknowledged bases in over 130 different countries, including Japan.

[Tyshepp]

"national interest" is tied to the economy of the nation and well-being (saftey and security)of the general population. But it's cool to disagree. You're an idealist and I'm a realist. I even have idealist friends -- as long as they like beer or chu hi.

[yamada]

If the U.S. military get out of Japan, I(ok?) ask the japan government to tag with China.

[kohlrak]

From what i see here (5 minute observation) the last 2 replies are from people in japan, verses the reply before being some one in america (assuming we all answered our profile's truthfully) and the people who replied who are from Japan are saying that they want the U.S. in there, while the person from America is saying he wants the U.S. out? I think the opinions of the 2 posters from Japan are a more accuret description of what japan wants than some one who posts from America.

I've noticed a few common things about libearls, and i don't mean any offence to them by this. I'm sure a few of them would agree. They want everyone and everything to be equal. So that the only thing different between countries and people is the certain attributes (like skin color for people or climate for countries) and everything will be happy and joyous and everyone will be of equal status except government officials.

The democrates (in america) are the ones who currently side with the liberals. They are the group that denies any support from big buisness (which media is a big buisness, so that's a flat out lie) and they seem to want to raise taxes and distrubute the money to welfare and things how they see fit. Now i know it's far from it, but it is the starting point of communism. In communism, they take all the money (in heavy taxes) then distribute it out how they feel. To appeal to the liberals, they support the minority of opinions. They mask a minority of opinions with racism, sexism, and all other kinds of "-isms" to say that it's wrong to oppose how the minority feels.

Fact is, the minority *ARE* the minority. Minority means "those who are less in numbers than others in one situation." (And no, i'm not saying that the liberals are the minority, just that they seem to stick up for them.) Therefor, we have a handfull of people who are making an excuse (thanks to the high fear of being called a racist in the United States) are the ones with more power. Heck, with that kind of attention we could bring paligamy (sp?) back. I don't want to see this happening to Japan. Fact is, the minorty are a minority, and if they don't like how a country is run, they are the ones who should be kicked out, rather than telling the mijority (sp?) to get out. I'm not a racist, i'm not a sexist, i don't hate any group of people for who they are or what they are, but i will pick on a group for what they decide.

To top it off, the liberals and democrates seem to like opinions from people in places that aren't in the place that is being judged. America shouldn't be run based on the opinions of Germany or Russia or some place like that. Only Americans know what needs to be done to improve America. Only people who live in Japan know what needs to be done to Japan to make it as good as it can be. So, if you want to argue that Japan wants the troops out, then you can if you find a mijority in japan that says so. Plus, just what Japan wants isn't going to be what happens. The U.S. has troops in Japan for the U.S.'s safety. To get them out, it must be Japan who does it. Protecting Japan may very well be part of protecting the U.S., but fact is. The U.S. is in there on it's terms, therefor it is U.S. intrest. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Because of that, no one seems to be attacking Japan. You pull out the U.S. (just like in Iraq) you'll have utter chaos. Talking the U.S. out isn't going to happen. So, if you want the U.S. out, it's *YOUR* job to get them out by other means. That means, force. So, if you want to go up to a bunch of U.S. soldiers with a pitchfork or something and start killing, you go ahead. You'll end up dead, or you can not attack them and leave the country to a place that you do like. I don't think Japan is one of those countries that won't let you leave, so yea, leaving is an option if you don't like it.

[ricecake]

If the U.S. military get out of Japan, I(ok?) ask the japan government to tag with China.



That's one odd-couple in the world political arena :lol:

[caster51]

America Should Get Out of Japan, Now!!!

that is a true nationalism of japan.

however.....

[kohlrak]

It's funny, actually. With that show from North Korea, it shows that some one dosn't like Japan. Even if Japan can get it's Army big real quick, will they withstand the tests? Lots of people will want to check to see if they can defend themselves. If they're not really good, some one will try to attack. From what i've seen from other posts, Asia dosn't exactly like japan.

[caster51]

Asia dosn't exactly like japan.
you mean china and korea?

[kohlrak]

i've heard all of asia, but those were the only 2 countries actually mentioned.

[Mycernius]

I don't think the people in the Middle East really like or dislike Japan. Too far away for them and they have never suffered at the hands of Japanese soldiers from WW2

[Tyshepp]

When I was in Korea last time I accidentally mixed up some yen and won at a bar (I was seeing kind a fuzzy) and the barkeep practically threw the yen back at me. I thanked her as the yen was worth a hell of a lot more than the won I had counted it as -- after she thought about it a minute she tried to get me to give her the yen ha ha ha -- yeah right!

[OPTIMUS]

Americans will pull out its military forces in S. Korea and Japan? I think it's very unlikely. In my opinion, the military bases from each country is a strategic position, let's take for example the current missile test ran by the US-S. Korea joint military excercise wherein US was able to have an actual drill on how to inctercept missiles coming from Korean peninsula. At this point in time, I think it's really unlikely. :-)

[ricecake]

Too far away for them and they have never suffered at the hands of Japanese soldiers from WW2



People generally don't held ever-lasting hate for no reason.

My immediately family wasn't victimized in the 1930's-1940's,hence I have a free pass embracing Japanese culture.

[sgorevere]

I think that they should stay because if they left, the States would be quite paranoid that Japan may strike back or something. Let em stay, let em feel like they are big...

[Tyshepp]

Domo arigato. Since you concur, we will stay.

[Pachipro]

People generally don't held ever-lasting hate for no reason.


Really? Tell that to Koreans and Chinese. Many young people in those countries are taught to still hate the Japanese because of WW II even though they were not alive at the time and Japan is no where near what it was before and during WW II.

[ricecake]

Really ? Tell that to Koreans and Chinese. Many young people in those countries are taught to still hate the Japanese because of WW II even though they were not alive at the time and Japan is no where near what it was before and during WW II.



Younger generations are thankful they didn't live those horrible years,and they can absolutely tell it to foreigners.

There are many million living families among Chinese and Korean populations victimized by Japan Imperial Army.The American-born author Iris Chang of " Rape of Nanking " is one example I can provide,someone ethnic Chinese hated Japanese for her grandparents witnessed Japanese atrocities with close relatives and friends were some of those victims in their hometown Nanking city.She was born and raised in Sunnyvale,California which is 40 miles from where I presently live in the city of Dublin.

Honestly,average Chinese don't speak of Japan or Japanese on daily basis in real life let alone hating Japanese on personal level as many people loosely suggested in cyberspace.

No one in my extended family ever hated Japanese,we've discussed WW 2 events involved Japanese imperialism and war activities in Asia.

I've know some young Chinese families in California rented out room in their home to Japanese foreign exchange students including my neighbor.

As for young S Koreans,there is a gradual increase number of Japanese-wannabes passionately pursue East Asia brotherhood with Japanese on Koreans' long-held belief of Japanese and Koreans have shared-100%-PURE-Korean-origin whatever that means.Here you have it,Korean fanaticism and extremism

[awakeneddragon]

I grew up around the military in Far East Asia. If you are like me, then you know that there are two kinds of soldiers: Those that live here and those that come here to party. *shrug* Those that settle down, get married with a local and have a kid (like me) are alright--and their kids are alright because this is HOME. As for the others? Well, after a lifetime I've come to realize that the number of partiers and troublemakers are MUCH higher on that other side.

This latest rape case (or cases) is being sensationalized in the view of some people. But these are people that don't LIVE HERE. This is NOT the first rape case. Was it last year that a teenager was raped, killed and discarded? This is a regular occurance. Laugh, joke, and hedge all you will. Rapists are trash, and anyone that defends them are too.

If the price of peace and prosperity with the US is allowing their servicemen to rape the women of this country, then it is past time for the US to go. Japan IS an ally. Japan has respected their side of that coin.

I think Japan has been very patient with the US. The US didn't pay for its embassy in Tokyo for years. The US get's angry when Japan catches bad beef. Japan pays a premium price for everything that comes from the US. We can go on about this.

But the point is: Do all these bases belong here? There are over a DOZEN bases in Japan. We can talk about WWII, the treaty, the good that the US, in fact, HAS done. Yup, u-huh, but do Japanese deserve to be raped? No.

The Japanese have since WWII, in very good faith, turned around. Yes, they have become an economic giant. Great, good for them. But it's costing them. They are suffering the same pains that the US is: Unemployment, disillusionment--pick your industrial fallout. But more than this, they loose their culture daily. They are loosing themselves. They are paying dividends that are irreplacable. We can talk about this too.

What are the purposes of the bases? Having lived in several in Japan, I certainly loved them. But are they necessary here? Is the US really doing the world a favor by being here of all places?

Drop the attitude and be honest:

The US wants to wage a political and economic war in Iraq? Great. Cool. Yay, oil. So then, why doesn't the US put a dozen bases over THERE, where their presence is SO obviously needed? I think if they did so then their weapon sales to terrorists would go all the more smoothly.

Economic and political realities? That's the world, right?

Look at Japan as an outsider and you'll see it for the sides that it has: The old guard (Yeah, THEY are still here, and, yeah, THEY are still in the offices of power--jerks), the corporations (learning everything bad from the example that shifty foreign business has taught them--so blind), and finally the people. The Japanese are a good people. And these soldiers that I grew up around, worked with, TRAINED, are raping--not the jerks in power, not the corporations--but the PEOPLE that are my neighbors and friends and family.

I did my part for the US. I did my part for the military. And if there is one thing I've learned is to recognize and fight for what is RIGHT. And right now the US is NOT right.

Stow your misquided history lessons. Your illusions about political realities. People like you are making the situation worse: Because the Japanese want it stopped.

But jerks like YOU want the rape to continue.

And the old guard WILL come back because of people like you.

I pity you. And I pity me because I am embarassed to be a citizen of the US. I pity us all, because more than likely Japan will back down and the raping will continue.

But don't let me catch you, citizen.

[Sukotto]

"national interest" is tied to the economy of the nation and well-being (saftey and security)of the general population. But it's cool to disagree. You're an idealist and I'm a realist. I even have idealist friends -- as long as they like beer or chu hi.

what's "chu hi" ?
i imagine some sort of snack to go along with the beer?

[Goldiegirl]

I was talking with a Captain in the US Air Force stationed in Guam, he told me that they were moving 8,000 soldiers this year from Okinawa to Guam...

[Chidoriashi]

Man, if you hate the US so much then please do us all a favor and renounce your citizenship. I don't agree with people being raped of course, and stricter discipline is definitely necessary, but the fact is the US military isn't going anywhere. And in reality I think if the leaders in Tokyo really truly wanted them gone they would be. Perhaps they are putting up with it because they have bigger concerns in mind about the safety of their country. And by the way, rapists come in all nationalities, and the fact is I'm sure there is a much bigger problem with Japanese committing rapes against other Japanese than the US military. So if you are really on this seeming crusade for social justice to protect your friends and family you cannot single out one group that is causing a problem. Rape isnt going to go away when the US leaves Japan. Which makes me think you are really less concerned about the rape and more concerned about fueling your hatred for the US.

[otoko]

America and Japan have a security treaty, so America's forces are not leaving Japan.

Japan gets the security umbrella and America providing stability in the far east. Japan does have a potent self-defense force and they do spend the money. Still no one can come close to matching America's military strength. I don't see how Japan could make up for that even with more spending on defense. Also who would provide security(stability) in the far east? Japan could not because China and Korea would be absolutely opposed to that idea and vice versa.

All allies have disputes, whether it be trade or crimes(like the rape in Okinawa). That this is indicative of failing relations between allies is untrue. Both countries know it is in their best interests to be allies and to have American forces in Japan.

[Glenski]

awakeneddragon,
Your arguments don't make sense.

No one deserves to be raped, true, but you write as if that is the only purpose in having U.S. troops here.

Look at statistics. More crimes are committed per capita by the local Japanese than by foreign military. The cases with the military just get more press, and people use this to fuel their demands to get the troops out.


The US get's angry when Japan catches bad beef. As well it should. Are you implying otherwise? The U.S. screwed up royally on that one.

But the point is: Do all these bases belong here? There are over a DOZEN bases in Japan. We can talk about WWII, the treaty, the good that the US, in fact, HAS done. Yup, u-huh, but do Japanese deserve to be raped? No.
The Japanese have since WWII, in very good faith, turned around. Yes, they have become an economic giant. Great, good for them. But it's costing them. The U.S. military presence in Japan continues because both sides want it. They both agreed to the terms. By "they", of course, I mean the governments, not necessarily the individual locals.

But more than this, they loose their culture daily. They are loosing themselves. They are paying dividends that are irreplacable. We can talk about this too.I'd be happy to, but are you saying that the presence of military bases in Japan causes the loss of culture? If so, you are dead wrong. Culture evolves. Globalization is, well, global, and you can't stop it unless you shut off yourself from the rest of the world like Japan did for over 200 years. This is not that period. Japan's eyes are open to the rest of the world (just like every other developed country), so there are bound to be changes in culture. Don't blame it on soldiers.

What are the purposes of the bases? Having lived in several in Japan, I certainly loved them. But are they necessary here? Is the US really doing the world a favor by being here of all places?Ask your government and Japan's. As I wrote above, they both agree on it.

Drop the attitude and be honest:
The US wants to wage a political and economic war in Iraq? Great. Cool. Yay, oil. So then, why doesn't the US put a dozen bases over THERE, where their presence is SO obviously needed?Can you stay on topic here? Japan.

Stow your misquided history lessons. Your illusions about political realities. People like you are making the situation worse: Because the Japanese want it stopped.Then it is up to the citizens to force change, because as you wrote, it is still the "old guard" in power.

[awakeneddragon]

How interesting that my words have been interpretted that way.

Do I have to defend myself as much as I've defended the US my entire life? OK:

You won't find a patriot greater than me. I came from the generation that considered the words of the Pledge of Allegience everyday in school I stood for and sang the National Anthem in theaters. Play me the tune and I can sing for you any song that has expounded the good, courageous and fine aspects of the US.

You have misinterpretted my disgust and withering hate for the elements of our own country that have decided to go on foreign soil and forget that each and every one of them is an ambassador.

Do I have to defend myself to my own people, fellow citizens?

Shame on you.

It is NOT hate for the US that makes me demand that the bases leave. It is my love.

Duty, honor, discipline. Sit on those words every day of your life. Attempt to live them. And when you stop being an armchair terrorist believing yourself to be a true hero because you see injustice BUT DO NOT ACT, then you can stand up and call yourself not only a proud citizen of the US, but a worthy representative of ALL of humanity.

I'd be glad to shake your hand then.

Until then? Necessity. Worst common denominator: The US military equation of their being in Japan. Because the worst of the US represents us all.

Have your day of silence. Have your discussions. Transfer people. But you and I know that this will all blow over, that those mediocre efforts are useless: It'll happen again and again just as it always has.

It is not with a Japanese voice that the outrage should be raised: It should be every citizen of the US that screams the loudest.

Shame on you.

The best defense I can offer in the name of the US is to be the GOOD citizen I have always been. To live my life with the precepts that surrounded me. Words, words, words. They are only a clever t-shirt and sappy sentiment unless you have the courage to live them.

And I'll tell you, weak people like YOU make it hard. Evil people like that rapist make it hard.

Proud to be an American?

Bring on your silly, uninformed dispersions. You know nothing. Be a bigot. Rest comfortably in the fact that you yourself did not commit those rapes--but would do nothing about it. Couch in the belief that the Japanese really need us here.

Pride has two meanings. I think I'm on the correct side. I think it's obvious what side YOU are on.

[Chidoriashi]

Ok, I`m not going to bother with a rebuttal to every little point of your self-righteous speech, or the fact that you have the gall to assume you know what kind of person or citizen someone you know nothing about has been. What I will do though is ask you what exactly is it that you are doing to combat rape in society? B*tching about it on an online forum?... oh yeah! way to set the wheels of change in motion. Or do you run around the town at night in tights and a cape hunting them all down with the tools in your trusty utility belt? My point is you aren`t doing a thing about it either. Are you haughty enough to think you can single handedly change society? US forces leaving Japan isnt going to stop rape, it isnt going to stop murder, it isnt going to do anything about crime as a whole, so arguments that the US should leave Japan because a few of them are acting up once in a while are invalid. What are you other arguments do you have for why the US should leave Japan? You say they arent necessary, but why? The fact is just like Glenski said, the US military is still in Japan because BOTH SIDES want it. That may not be what your neighbors are saying but it is what the gov`t is saying. If the US leaving is really that big of a deal to you stop wasting time b*tching about it on an online forum and use your energy where it matters. Talk to the politicians and the Japanese gov`t. You accomplish nothing by posting on here!

[Glenski]

awakeneddragon,
So, you are proud to be an American. ok. Nothing wrong in that.
You have pride in the USA. Again, no problem.

I don't understand your application of the word "justice", though. Could you explain that a bit more? Your rather lengthy and well-chosen words smack of someone running for office, not chatting on an Internet forum. (No real problem with the language you choose, other than the fact that it makes it hard to understand where you are coming from sometimes, ok?)

You want the US out of Japan because of a few bad eggs (and those words are not meant to belittle the more heinous crimes they have committed, ok?). Does that mean you think there will always be such types, so American military forces should never be posted anywhere except on American soil? That would certainly maintain an image and illusion of the "nice guy" in Americans. But are you thinking of Americans' image alone? It would seem so, otherwise you'd accept the fact that US military forces are human beings and need to have rules imposed upon them to keep them in line, but even the best of intentions won't resolve that matter. Take them out and what do you have?

"Evil people like that rapist" should probably read "alleged rapist", shouldn't it? I thought you came from a land of democracy where the accused are presumed innocent until proven guilty. (Yes, the whole incident puts the US in a bad light. But you seem to want the whole military contingent out of the country.)

Oh, and I think you really went too far in calling Chidoriashi an "armchair terrorist". What gives you the right to do that?

[awakeneddragon]

I have strong opinions supported by strong beliefs borne from a life that I've fought for. The purpose of this thread was to post an opinion on an exceedingly touchy subject that I have no doubt is linked to many variables.

I believe I've sufficiently made clear my opinion. If people wish to start up a different thread on the ins and outs of my thoughts I'd only be too happy to go there and field questions like a battle axe or a politician or a sane human being.

What people feel are mutually exclusive doesn't make sense to me. Read into that statement what you will.

As to thoughts about solutions to this and the other evils of the world, by whomever commits them, I don't think this thread was titled for that. If someone starts such a thread I'd be interested to see it. As to what I've done to fight evil where I've seen it?

Ok. Have you ever stood up to a bully? Have you ever quit because you didn't like what you were seeing? Have you ever been fired because you did the right thing? Have you ever come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress? The list goes on like this. If you haven't answered yes to all of the above then you aren't a person that I would like to know.

I tell you. When the world isn't looking, or worse, when it is, if you cannot make a simple statement in the defense of the victimized and the week, then you aren't just a bad citizen of whatever country you claim as yours, but a horrible human being. In this instance we make issue of citizenship, of professions, of whatever side of the fence you want to sit on. If you cannot do more say something then you've already changed the world.

I wrote my letter to the President. I wrote my letter to the Prime Minister. I didn't hide behind an avatar, a cute name and a catch phase. Full name, number and address.

What did you do?

I'll leave this topic (looking forward to others--because this all really is fascinating) with just one more thought: The rapist was evil (and I do appreciate the humor of that wonderful line "alleged." That cracks me up every time--thank you), but if nothing else understand that there is an evil greater than that: Doing nothing.

Because for all those times when I ever stood up to evil it was the people standing on the sidelines that disappointed more than anything.

Play with words all you like. Make gray/grey what is black and white.

If you aren't willing to throw yourself at the lions then you and I will never speak the same language.

Conviction. It's in your gut. Tear it out and take it for a spin. You'll make plenty of mistakes, but the point is the attempt.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Really? Tell that to Koreans and Chinese. Many young people in those countries are taught to still hate the Japanese because of WW II even though they were not alive at the time and Japan is no where near what it was before and during WW II.

Very true indeed and In Australia, we have forgiven, some anyway, but have never forhgotten and the young one's are taught here.

My friends parents in Thailand pretty much hold a strong dislike towards anything Jpanese because of the past time attrocities they committed..

[Chidoriashi]

Umm your point at the beginning was all about why the US should leave Japan, and it was basically cuz some of them are causing problems/commiting crimes. And I've already said 3 times now that the US leaving Japan isnt going to bring an end to rape in Japan etc. But you seem to be turning this into a self glorification-holier than thou discussion..

Ok. Have you ever stood up to a bully? Have you ever quit because you didn't like what you were seeing? Have you ever been fired because you did the right thing? Have you ever come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress? The list goes on like this. If you haven't answered yes to all of the above then you aren't a person that I would like to know.

Umm ok, yes, yes, no, maybe? These questions are all circumstantial and you know I really don't keep track of all my good deeds, cuz I'm not that obsessed with how wonderful I am. I have a conviction to do what is right, but you seemed to be obsessed with how perfect you are. You have turned this into a discussion on how righteous you are and how scummy everyone else is. Pride was the devil's flaw my friend.

Anyway what I would really like to hear from you is valid reasons why the US should leave Japan. So in order to do that you need to debunk possible reasons why the US is here. Only then do you have solid reason to demand that they leave. A few of them doing bad things doesn't seem to be turning the heads of people calling the shots, so if you were to bring this argument to them I don't really see it being effective.

[Chidoriashi]

What did you do?


I didn't do a thing because I don't believe the US leaving is going to do jack squat about rape/murder etc. in Japanese society.

You seem to, and you wrote your letters so good for you.

[Half-n-Half]

Ok. Have you ever stood up to a bully? Have you ever quit because you didn't like what you were seeing? Have you ever been fired because you did the right thing? Have you ever come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress? The list goes on like this. If you haven't answered yes to all of the above then you aren't a person that I would like to know.

What if those opportunities have never arisen? I'm sure most people have never come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress because the opportunity does not usually exist in the everyday life of a person.

[Glenski]

Have you ever stood up to a bully? Have you ever quit because you didn't like what you were seeing? Have you ever been fired because you did the right thing? Have you ever come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress? The list goes on like this. If you haven't answered yes to all of the above then you aren't a person that I would like to know.I've done all of the above. I feel I deserve straight answers to my very straight questions. Don't put up a smokescreen or diversion by saying other people should start threads in reply to statements you made. Answer those questions!

I didn't hide behind an avatar, a cute name and a catch phase. Full name, number and address.
What did you do?I am not hiding behind anything. You are. You are hiding behind empty rhetoric and a refusal to answer very direct questions. That is considered trolling on the Internet and is punishable on many web sites.

You may have been brave. You seem very patriotic. You have very strong opinions but have a very tough time explaining them. Help us here by engaging in a conversation instead of a monologue.

My avatar is not that cute, anyway.

I'll leave this topic (looking forward to others--because this all really is fascinating) with just one more thought: The rapist was evil (and I do appreciate the humor of that wonderful line "alleged." That cracks me up every time--thank you), but if nothing else understand that there is an evil greater than that: Doing nothing.Well, then, you are the evil, because you have done nothing to reply here. You are the bully, in other words. I'm standing up to you. There was no rape. It was admitted. It has not gone to court so it is only alleged. That is a pretty clear semantic point that any one, military or civilian, should be able to understand.

Because for all those times when I ever stood up to evil it was the people standing on the sidelines that disappointed more than anything.
Play with words all you like. Look who's talking about playing with words! Look at all this mess you have typed yet not replied to anything I've written! Hypocrite.

[Sukotto]

the title of this thread is unfortunate

well, at least the ! marks are.


i guess, depending upon how p.o.'d a Japanese person you are.
i wish the person who started the thread were still around.

[Yan]

There's something we must understand about USA. U.S. forces but their nose everywhere even if it's not their business. They should get out of Japan and even get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Same for the Canadian forces. I'm sick of army because they are everywhere. The U.S. has an army so they should keep it in their country instead of putting it everywhere in the world.

I'm not an expert about military but that's what I think...

[Capster78]

There's something we must understand about USA. U.S. forces but their nose everywhere even if it's not their business. They should get out of Japan and even get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Same for the Canadian forces. I'm sick of army because they are everywhere. The U.S. has an army so they should keep it in their country instead of putting it everywhere in the world.
I'm not an expert about military but that's what I think...

Thats fine, but when the terrorists cause unrest in the middle east and fighting breaks out.. With all the boarder disputes in the middle east and surrounding areas, you may find yourself defending your own country.

Namely.. India and Pakistan (both nuclear), China and India (both nuclear), China and Taiwan, Israel and the rest of the middle east, Iran and Iraq, North Korea and South Korea. The only reason alot of these countries behave is because we are close by keeping an eye on them. Several countries in that area of the world do not like their neighbors. One spark, and the possability for WWIII is prety good. Especially if the middle east decides to gang up on Israel.

[Yan]

Yes but the official reason of Iraq war is "terrorism" but what the U.S. gouvernment doesn't want to say is the true reason of this war: petrole. Bush attacks Iraq and Afghanistan because he's only thinking about himself.

Anyway, I don't want to live the Third World War in my life only because of U.S. Americans.

[Mars Man]

Let's please keep the discussion on topic folks, and anything other than that of American troops as it relates to being based in Japan, is going to be off-topic.

[Yan]

I'm sorry. I'm really angry about Iraq war so I forgot the subject of this thread and I posted a off-topic message.

[Capster78]

Yes but the official reason of Iraq war is "terrorism" but what the U.S. gouvernment doesn't want to say is the true reason of this war: petrole. Bush attacks Iraq and Afghanistan because he's only thinking about himself.
Anyway, I don't want to live the Third World War in my life only because of U.S. Americans.
Your understand of terrorism is not very good. Why do you think terrorism exists? It is because you have several different factions living in the same country that have conflicting beliefs. It is a power struggle. This happens all over the world. We are not everywhere terror exists. We are in the middle east because terrorism in that part of the world can cause unstability that could spark much larger conflicts (Iran/Iraq war as an example). It is a matter of escalation. If you look at history, world wars did not break out overnight. There was an escalation of events that lead to countries picking sides. Many of these countries wanted to exploit the war because they saw opertunities to settle old unsolved issues with their neighbors. This is what we are trying to prevent right now. You have to look at the big picture.
I know the moderators above, said this was off topic. It is one of the reasons US forces are in japan. We are here to not only provide defense for japan, but also as a foreward operating location for issues that happen in Korea and the middle east. The deterent of US forces in Japan has been one of the factors that has kept China and North Korea at bay,

[hotaruika]

I belive Japan need US Forces for safe of east Asia.
Japan must form an alliance USA or Russia,communism Chaina.becouse Japan have　not nuclear wepon.
I belive USA is best of ３ country.becouce USA have Democracy,liberalism and strongly forces.
EastAisia contories are playing　an arms race now.
Japanese　government and Forces must control risk of war in cooperation with US Forces Japan.

[AroundTheWorld]

I stopped reading this thread before I found more than one sensible statement.

[Sukotto]

Let's please keep the discussion on topic folks, and anything other than that of American troops as it relates to being based in Japan, is going to be off-topic.

I would just like to say that sometimes things to go abound in discussions.
As long as they relate back to the main topic.

ex: US forces in Japan.
One might argue they are needed for x blanket or simple one sentence reason.
But there may be things that are connected to disprove x blanket reason.

I'm just saying a discussion may mention things more, but I believe as long as it relates back to the main topic, and the poster makes this clear, it should be allowed.