Where does Japanese History Begin!

[Koji]

Konichiwa! Hello, Where does japanese history begin ? Who was it's first Empirers ? Did they come From China, Korea...? Where did It all begin? If you know answers or websites relating to this reply !!!

[thomas]

Hi Koji,

I recommend you to browse our link directory related to Japanese history:

http://www.japanreference.com/History/

You'll be able to find a lot of useful resources there. :)

[moyashi]

LOL I fogot or I'm not trusting myself.

Although, Ainu seem to be the first immigrants possibly coinciding with the migration of the American Indians ... too many similarities with the Iroquois tribes that I get goose bumps.

The Yamato or ahem Japanese probably are a mixture of SoutEast Asian, Chinese, Korean and Mongolian.

The jomon people I'm not really sure but more likely crossed over from the Korean pennisula.


Grammatically speaking Japanese is very similar to Korean. Linguistically speaking Japanese is very similar to Mongolian ... I had the chance to meet some Monoglians and they mentioned that Japanese sound like Mongolian children.

The Meiji constitution would prefer you to believe other wise.

[thomas]

A propos Mongolia:

please check the following article I found a while ago :D

=> http://forum.japanreference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54

Written by a Japanese neurologist: "Racially, the Japanese are Mongoloid and the development of a Mongoloid's brain is slow."

[moyashi]

LOL that's soooo funny.

I go through monthly spasm where I have to hear that Japanese intestines are longer than Americans or Eskimos! It's conveniently forgotten that most of Asian is ALSO on a rice diet.

Is this true? If so I'm gonna have a gas whenever the intestine story comes up again :D

[thomas]

Yeah, there seems to be a certain obsession to comparative anatomical studies in Japan.

Anyhow, I heard intestinal dimensions depend on the general amount of vegetable consumption throughout generations (or was it rice?). Anyhow - like the brain story - it smells Darwinistic and like dust from the19th century.

[halloalex]

Hi there!

I am really sorry, to ask this - especially because it doesnt really fit this thread. But I have seen the headline of this thread many times and always the same (dialectic) idea came in my mind:

If the Japanese history has begun anytime, it just logical, that must end anytime, right?

I agree, such a question is politically not proper. But many scientists argue, that even in Americaｴs Ivy League everybody is politically so correct nowadays, that only few people come up with new ideas...so please excuse my question and dont misunderstand me: My question doesnt focus on liquidation or it. I rather refer my argumentation on Francis Fukuyama, who already predicted the "end of the history", because in his opinion democracy will sooner or later prevail in every society. I dont agree with him in this point, since other scientists (like Huntington, etc) have shown, that democracy is not as powerful as Fukuyama believes. But I think, from a cultural perspective, he is right: In pure sense, the Japanese history is already over.

What do I thinK? Am I crazy?

Cheers,
alex

[thomas]

Let me answer in short emotional outbursts:

- political correctness: pseudo-ethical, pseudo-intellectual terror, too self-absorbed, causes intellectual stagnation - as you mentioned.

- demorcracy = "rule of the people": hasn't been accomplished anywhere, except perhaps for a few Swiss cantons (direct democracy, that is; everything else is just a political stage with incompetent actors and a stupid audience).

- Huntington: cannot cope with the fact that the Cold War is over, trying desperately to convince us that the world is antagonistic and hostile.

- "Japanese history is over": it started with Amaterasu, the Sun Goddess, and it will only end through her.

Epilogue: don't take me serious, haven't had my coffee yet! ;)

[moyashi]

hehe Amaterasu's children blocked her in a cave while the had an "orgy" ... hehe not very politically speaking but more closer to fact.

As long as an Emperor / Empress exists I bet Japanese history will continue. hehe outside of the 53 state theory.

Rice --- Japanese have researched this to death. Japanese intestines are X cms longer than Eskimos! LOL ... I can't be bothered to remember the actual length. Problem here though is that "only" Japanese eat rice apparently.

[thomas]

Well, you seem to forget it's Japanese rice they eat, hehe...

53 states? Please enlighten an ignorant European. :confused:

[kyujuni]

From what I know, Japanese DNA is very similar to Korean DNA (racially, of course we all bear human DNA)... As well Scientists who group the worlds languages into sections have been left with two that do not belong in any other group, Japanese and Korean.

Also, the First Emperor (according to Shinto Legend) was Emperor Jimmu (Came to power 660 AD according to legend), who also according to Shinto legend was the Grandson of Amaterasu... type in "Japanese History" and you can find out more then you ever wanted to know...

[moyashi]

53rd State = japan/canada ... which ever comes first

I do believe that there was an emperess first ... but don't quote me.

Genetically ... could be but I'd pin the DNA more closer to the Monogolians.
hmmm I wonder about the AINU though ... where did they actually come from ????

[kyujuni]

lol, yeah Japan and Canada are definatly puppet states to the Americans...

I know that Japan stopped having Empresses after some scandel between the last Empress and a Shinto Priest, so it is possible...

[thomas]

Originally posted by moyashi
53rd State = japan/canada ... which ever comes first

Any Japanese/Canadians who confirm that?? :D

As for the origins of the Ainu (found that page a few days ago):

Origins of the Ainu

=> http://www.japanreference.com/cgi-bin/jump.cgi?ID=4468

"...justifiably, the Ainu seemed a relic of a primitive hunting-and-gathering people who had inhabited northeastern Japan for thousands of years..."

[kyujuni]

Yeah, Canada definantly is... Our leaders do whatever the US wants us to do, the US even violates our treaties (not speaking militarily) and our government does nothing but sit there...

And I think I read once that the Ainu once inhabited all of Japan but were driven further and further north by the Japanese settlers, until they eventually had to jump over to Hokkaido.

By the way, can someone clarify the pronounciation of "Ainu" for me, is it something like the english word "eye" followed by "new"? Or would Japanese/Ainu just laugh at me if I said it to them like that :)...

[thomas]

Originally posted by kyujuni
Our leaders do whatever the US wants us to do, the US even violates our treaties (not speaking militarily) and our government does nothing but sit there...
<rant>

I think that applies to the entire "civilized" world. Just think of the so-called "war against terrorism"... :rolleyes:

</rant>

Ainu = eye-noo :)

[kyujuni]

Yeah probably does, (maybe outside some scattered countries), but it goes to the point that the US decides many of our laws that most other countries can leave alone, as well as the US having virtual control of our military (all the time, not just in "times of need" (like US needs any help taking down a government in the third world))

[thomas]

like US needs any help taking down a government in the third world
I don't want to "hijack" this thread, but let me add some more thoughts: first, the U.S. government doesn't need anyone's help in terms of military strength. "Asking them for help" simply translates to "getting more legitimacy in pursuing our own interests" under the pretext of saving the Western way of life.

"It's either with us or against us!" Well, world affairs are not that simple. It can't be tolerated to impose simplistic concepts on other nations. But I guess that's the price we have to pay to a global cop in times of unipolar world order...

Enough said, back to Amaterasu and the Ainu! :)

[akemi]

I am not an expert on military matters, but it strikes me that while the US military is by far the largest in the world and has the most expensive collection of weapons, that does not always translate as the best or most appropriate.

I remember reading that the Royal Navy at the end of the 19th century was large enough to fight a sea war against the three next largest navies combined. However, changes in ship design and tactics made a lot of their ships obsolete.

The size of the US military and the collection of stategic and tactical nuclear weaponry was certainly an important factor in the Cold War, but I am not sure that it is so decisive in the current climate. Several countries (France, Israel, Britain etc) have world class special forces.

Many countries that might be future trouble spots are involved in complex local economic and political situations, often attached to centuries old rivalries. Local knowledge and pro-active allies with negotiating leverage would be very important in such a situation.

A military response is only as good as the political will that enables it. If a Third World leader is willing to accept massive casualties in his own armed forces and civilian population, he can call the bluff of the American administration, believing that American public opinion would not allow the carnage to continue or the resultant loss of thier own people. In that situation allies with less conscience have an important proxy role to play.

Basically, my point is this. While the US military is large and expensively equipped, the political and military reality is that it cannot act alone. Allies are important.

How does this fit into a discussion on Japanese history? I'm not completely sure :-) However, it does touch on the relationship between Japan and other countries. I don't want to get involved with the debate on the merits of American military bases on Japanese soil. Nor do I have any desire to comment on the War on Terrorismn. These are very complicated subjects. However, it is important to ask questions about the role Japan may be able to play in future - economically, politically, morally - in world affairs.

[moyashi]

AINU = "eye-new" ... not sure how the "noo" went there ;)

I also read that the Ainu originally inhabited the southern island of Honshu ... their religion/life style from the bits I've seen are very close to the Iroquois Indians that I grew up with. Although, they have more body hair ... (arms/legs. and facial) which is used against them by (errr) "your standard Japanese" ... a nice way of rewritting history by saying that the Ainu are a Northern based people.

LOL ... we're forgetting that the Japanese "ahem ... ohhh ... ahhh wooo" Self Defense Force is the 5 largest at least in expenditures in the world.
hmmmm .... they've got some tomcats too ;) ... it's fun to watch em fly and shoot up the surronding neighborhoods with blanks ;)

Before I forget Prime Minister Koizumi wanted to expand the reach and use of the SDF ... for "occasions/events/happenings" ... the wording was yuji (is/are thing). And the only political group that doesn't want to change the Japanese Constition are the communist. hehe Article 9 in English is very specific while the Japanese "conviently vaguely translated" version isn't ;) I wonder if MacArthur let the translators get away with this on purpose to use Japan during the Korean conflict ?!? hmmm ....

[kyujuni]

Thanks for the reply on how to say Ainu... now I wont feel like I might be making an idiot out of myself if I talk to someone about it (vocally)...

I'm not sure as to the figures, but from what I've heard the JSF would be almost completly useless in an offensive war. Why? Japan has almost no real "Army" (Land based military is the definition I'm going by) but it has a large Navy and Airforce, so while Japan could Bombard an enemy very easily, it would not be able to easily capture actuall soil. The US does not care about their having such a huge military (I've hard it was 8th largest overall, but I am not sure about the validity of that statistic) because it can't invade and Japan is located in what is probably one of the worlds greatest "hot spots", so a military aimed at defence is seen as a plus.

Sorry for my long, off topic, post.

Yes, back to the Ainu and the Land of the Gods...

Didn't they inhabit Kyushu as well at some point?

[jus_defy]

I recently found out that Japanese families all have crests but I don't know what ours would be...how would I go about trying to locate our family crest?
D

[Mindy]

One of the best and more acccurate internet sources on early Japan is the Ancient Japan website. Check it out at:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/CONTENTS.HTM

[samuraitora]

I have read and my nihongo no sensei told me the same thing:

The Japanese are not real fond of the ainu and don't claim them.

[moyashi]

Japanese can't claim the Ainu because then that would mean ALL their textbooks and history were falsified. It would probably mean having to re-write their legends too. Besides, the Ainu are too hairy for the general Japanese populace.

I like the Ainu people. They're pretty cool, well, at least the ones I've met.

SDF not being land strong. hmmm.... possibly, but they do have plenty of tanks and the subway system in Sapporo was designed to allow tanks to transverse the city underground. I heard that statistically the SDF could hold off a Soviet Union conventional attack for about 2 weeks allowing enough time for the Americans to come to their aid.

Now what would be scary if the Japanese were to give up on the European line of military thought and go back to the ancient classic the "Art of War" by Sun Tsu. You can see this type of military strategy used in WWI and the begining of WWII until the Japanese military got thankfully arogant and stagnant. Mao Tse Tung also used these tactics to hold off and push back the Japanese navy and army.

[Kjeld]

To get back to the original question, recent research has show there were several inflows of people into Japan. Some of these overlapped, some of them were repeated many many centuries later.

At a time when Indonesia was still connected to the rest of Asia, there was a large inflow of people from there. Most of them arrived via a sea route. Other inflows came through what is now Korea, and North-East Asia. There was actually a time when what has turned into the northern island of Hokkaido was connected with the mainland of Asia. A similar landbridge existed between Asia and the Americas. This allowed peoples to cross into the Americas and eventually move to the most southern tip.

After sealevels rose millions of islands were created, seperating people and thereby allowing them to develop cultures independent of each other. So where do you start Japanese history? If you go back far enough we all come from the orginal Eve somewhere in Africa. This is a history we all share, whether we are aware of it or not.

I guess Japanese 'history' started when the people here began developing cultures sufficiently different from the ones they originated from. When exactly this happened is still an ongoing quest for scientists. In the past few years there have been many surprising finds in Kyushu where a flourishing culture developed at an earlier stage than was believed possible. Unfortunately 20th century development has destroyed most of the escavating sites, and even now only a few are protected for the future.

For more information, check out these links:

Revolution of Ancient History -- http://www.furutasigaku.jp/
The Furuta Historical Science Association considers many Japanese history text books "dishonest". It publishes research papers like The Self-Evident Truth About the Jomon Stones.

Ancient Japan -- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ANCJAPAN/CONTENTS.HTM
Also mentioned by Mindy in an earlier posting in this thread. From Richard Hooker's World Civilizations series. Amazingly comprehensive site covering Japan from prehistory to 1192. Don't miss this one!

From Hunters to Rice Growers ﾑ Jomon Period -- http://www-history/pre-agri.html
Discusses the life of the Jomon people with graphics of and links to artifacts, with a focus on the diet, hunthing methods, agriculture, and cooking methods.

Early Jomon Hamlet Found -- http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news21.htm
The Japan Times reports on the discoveries of Jomon culture artifacts on the island of Kyushu.

Japan Guide: Early Japan, until 710 -- http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2131.html
Introduces the Jomon, Yayoi, and Yamato cultures of Japan. (aka Schauwecker's Guide to Japan).

Oya Skeleton May be Jomon Period's Oldest -- http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news79.htm
The Japan Times reports discovery of a Jomon skeleton that carbon dating indicates may be as the oldest from the Jomon period.

[thomas]

Thanks for the comprehensive input, Kjeld. Interesting links, I think I'll add some of them to our directory.

[Kjeld]

You're welcome, Thomas.

I often worry I am way too serious for the forum. In Japanese this is called 'shokugyou-byou'. It literally translates as 'occupational disorder', a bad habit induced by ones work. As a journalist I automatically tend to dig for facts. Hopefully some people find this input helpful and interesting.

:gomen:

[thomas]

Hehe, too serious, Kjeld? Not at all.

Facts about Japan, just keep them coming. We are very grateful for quality input such as yours. So your efforts are highly appreciated.
:bow:

[Kjeld]

Thanks, Thomas.

[shintemaster]

Just on an aside... As far as I understand it Japan only stopped having an Empress after Americans involved in constitutional lego work decided that the Meiji constitutions strictures on this regard ought to be upheld. Quite surprising for such an unpaternal country as America...

[moyashi]

Hi Kjeld,

You too serious? ahh, I thought I was the one with [forum-byo] (byo = sickness) :)

Let's add a bit to what Kjeld researched for us. Make things a bit more interesting.

There's a legend of the Turtle boy (lol ... I let Thomas do the leg work again :) dam I'm lazy and forgetful ain't I?) Where a turtle saves a fisherman and takes him to an underwater palace. On returning to Japan, he ends up like thw Western Rip Van Wrinkle; all his friends are dead since he had been gone for so long.

Now, a TV show figured it out that he ended up in part of that Indonesia area that Kjeld mentioned where durng the last ice age, Humaniods retreated. After which, the sea levels rose submerging the area. Apparently stone arches and what remain. During the show, I was thinking Atlantis. I can't remember where I saw it but some news paper I think mentioned that Atlantis might've been in the Indonesia area too.


Interesting shintemaster,
But I think thigns are gonna get interesting in that regard since the the Crown Prince's baby is a girl. The news is still saying that Masako-san is still young enough to try again. The news, also, has brought up many times about the chance of having an Empress if things don't change.

If anything I think that since the Meiji period the movement of the Emperor has quieted down quite a bit. Before emprors would come and go in a few years now they seem more like Kings than men wanting to retire into the mountains and become monks.

hmmm ... I wonder if Aiko's future husband will become Emperor?

[shintemaster]

Yep that should be funny stuff. Here's hoping that they do some creative editing along the lines of the SDF and we can end up with an Empress. Would be VERY interesting as far as concepts of Japan as strongly patriarchal.

[Maciamo]

@when does Japanese history begins

History starts with the writing. Before the writing it is called pre-history. The writing came to Japan from China in the 3rd century. We do have some information about Japan before this through Chinese texts, but Japan was first mentioned in the 1st century AD as the land of Wa. Of course, there were people and maybe kingdoms in Japan long before that, but as no documents exist about them, it is considered as prehistory (a period called "Jomon). Anyway, the arrival of the kanji, coincide approximately with with the unification of Japan (Yamato) around 350, then the import of Buddhism (6th century) with the founding of the first permanent capital, Nara, in 710.

Just a rectification, Jimmu, the mythical first emperor of Japan, reigned from 660 BC, not AD.

@ainu

The pronouciation is neither -new, no really -noo in Japanese. It sounds more like a French "u", like in "deja-vu", but anyway native English speakers can't normally get it right. This "u" also exist in Dutch, German (written with the umlauf that I don't have on my Japanese keyboard and Scandinavic languages. In Oxfordshire, people tend to pronounce the English "oo" and "u" sounds (like in "food" or "new", "pure" and "you") like this "u". Japanese doesn't make the difference between them in writing, but it would be weird to confuse them while speaking. You find the "oo" sound (like in food/too/wood) in words that usually have a two "u" in romaji : koutsuu, taifuu... Most are "on" reading. The others (kun reading and single "u") are pronouce like a French "u" : suru, taberu, muzumuzu, Shinjuku-ku... This includes "ainu".

Japanese can't claim the Ainu because then that would mean ALL their textbooks and history were falsified. It would probably mean having to re-write their legends too. Besides, the Ainu are too hairy for the general Japanese populace.

Why ? Ainu used to lived in Northern Honshu before to be pushed into Hokkaido, while the Japanese (I consider the Ainu as non-Japanese culturally/ethincally) lived in the rest of Japan. There is no conflict. The North of Japan was simply not Japan but the land of the ainus. Americans don't claim having lived in the US for millenia, so why should Japanese claim Northern Japan as historically the same country ? The annexed it and the outnumbered Ainu were either killed or assimilated, exactly like American Indian with Europeans.


@origin of the Japanese people

I have started a new thread on this subject that ought to be further developed. (http://forum.japanreference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=742)

[moyashi]

hmm ... reread through that part dealing with "u".

I used "eye new" since I speak an American Accent similar to the one you hear on CNN. You might even think of it as "I knew".

I wonder if I'm using the Hokkaido accent here and thereby saying it the way they say it themselves. I have been to Ainu toursit traps and have met Ainu before .... I wonder how the NHK pronuciation would go. Probably like the way maciamo explained it.

@ falisification of history
The Ainu aren't normally recognized as an indigenous people though. The current day Japanese being a part of the Yamato group came later themselves too. While the Jomon Japanese seem to be slightly different from the Ainu and Yamato.

Also, If you read the Meiji Constitution it clearly states that the Japanese comes from 1 straight blood line family. Which is not really true. Many clans placed their grandchildren in place if a boy didn't exist to acceed to the throne so to say.

So, it's like a collective forgetfulness at times in Japan. Many Japanese really don't know at times, either.

It's easy for the foreign to look at the Ainu and say that they are indiginous but the Japanese don't seem to see it that way.

[lexico]

I go through monthly spasm where I have to hear that Japanese intestines are longer than Americans or Eskimos! It's conveniently forgotten that most of Asian is ALSO on a rice diet.

Is this true? If so I'm gonna have a gas whenever the intestine story comes up again :DQuite possibly, and with bigger, and longer appendix, too which is supposed to produce cellulose-digesting cellulase. Except the Mongols on horseback. My Mongolian prof. told me that vegetarianism is best avoided for a Mongol as it might cause excessive diarrhea. Therefore they might have relatively short intenstines instead having adapted to long term meat consumption.