Japanese Carriers: Egyptian Mythology Names?

[EdZiomek]

On a previous thread, I asked for and received the explanation for the mythology behind the names of the Japanese carriers of World War 2. I thank for all who responded, especially 名無し.

My conclusion at this point is that Japanese symbols and Egyptian hieroglyphics are not similar, though there seems to be some vague resemblance, maybe "rare" resemblance.

However, the phonetic sounds seem uncannily similar. As I have stated before, the readers of my threads do not have to take my amateur theories and do anything with them. I hope this information inspires the next generation of students and history buffs into seeing the possibility...

that Japanese and Egyptian names may be similar, if not identical.

For example, I will list the 5 largest carrier names, and the plausible Egyptian meaning, for all to review.

赤城 Akagi Mt. Akagi (Gumma pref.)

天城 Amagi Mt. Amagi (Shizuoka pref.)

加賀 Kaga current Ishikawa prefecture

蒼龍 Soryu "deep-blue dragon"

飛龍 Hiryu "flying dragon"


I have been told that this information is too "un-believable" for anyone to approve, in my lifetime, almost that you "have to be dead 20 years" for anyone to start believing. This may be true. However, I am optimistic that young masters students or college students might "leave the window of possibility open", that the Japanese language in some small part, is related to the Egyptian language and culture and theologies.

The information definitions come from the fantastic book...written in 1921 or so... "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary", by Wallis Budge. I found the book to be an Encyclopedic resource of names and definitions of numerous Amerindian tribes, and more recently, of Japanese naming conventions. In fact, the definitions listed in this two-volume set seem to give a deeper definition of the Japanese naming conventions, than even the Japanese historians can give me, but this is only my theory.

I am thrilled and fascinated with the Japanese culture, bottom line.

Your thoughts?

[EdZiomek]

I will make a second attempt to get better images of the egyptian hieroglyphics....

[bossel]

My conclusion at this point is that Japanese symbols and Egyptian hieroglyphics are not similar,
Those are not Japanese but Chinese characters. The Japanese took Chinese Hanzi & used them partially (actually most often, I think) with the original Chinese meaning, partially they added their own definitions. If you look for truly Japanese script, you have to look somewhere else.

However, the phonetic sounds seem uncannily similar.
How do you know? Egyptian pronunciation is largely unknown, we have estimates but not much more. What we have from the hieroglyphs are only consonants, vowls are almost completely out of reach for us.

that Japanese and Egyptian names may be similar, if not identical.
The examples you gave aren't very similar. Eg. Soryu which you seem to identify with "Egyptian" Serau. Except for S, there is not much more that you could say about phonetic similarity. The Egyptian vowls are unknown, whether the Japanese R conforms to the Egyptian one is doubtful. What's more, Eastern dragons symbolise excellence & power, the Egyptian word is for a fiend.

[EdZiomek]

What Egyptian name means "dragon"?

The closest I understand to a "dragon"-meaning word might be "griffon" or "flying serpent". Over 5000 years, Gods and Goddesses, monsters and serpents had "Good" and "Evil" connotations, sometimes at the same time. And sometimes they were male or female, OR BOTH sex attributes at the same time. And sometimes the ancient Gods and Goddesses impregnated THEMSELVES, having both the male and female attributes. Even Zeus of the Greeks had Sky and Earth symbolisms, Zeus-good and Zeus-evil, as I understand it, though I don't claim to be the expert. Osiris started out as God of all Gods, then was relegated to the underworld, and even represented "god of flowers" at one time, and "God of the oceans" at others.

Herr Bossell, the reason I mention that students of history are more likely to receive this information in an open-minded fashion is that it seems the older historians become more dogmatic in their beliefs, not "leaving the window open" for ANY possibility that Japanese could be Egyptian.

Your comments are extremely valid as any opinion is, and I thank you, but again we disagree on the speculation. Your opinion versus my opinion.

Pronunciation of Egyptian words? You are correct... who knows their exact pronunciation especially when they did not write down the vowel symbolism, considering vowels (as I understand it), sacred.

Wallis Budge has been dead ??? 82 years, and I believe he was curator of the British Museum, yet recently an official discounted his work, saying it was not accurate. And he was probably right, 85 years can add discoveries and subtract on theories.

But the net, net of his work is fantastic in my opinion, and I stand by my theories, that Japanese mythology names and Egyptian mythology are EXTREMELY similar, if not virtually EXACT.

But back to my original question... What Egyptian name means "dragon"?

[bossel]

What Egyptian name means "dragon"?
Don't know, my capabilities in ancient Egyptian are rather limited. What comes next to a dragon in Egyptian mythology: probably Apophis (though that depends on time & place of worship, & there are some other creatures which might be interpreted as dragons).

The closest I understand to a "dragon"-meaning word might be "griffon" or "flying serpent".
I was referring to your mentioning of Soryu & finding a similarity in Serau..

Herr Bossell, the reason I mention that students of history are more likely to receive this information in an open-minded fashion is that it seems the older historians become more dogmatic in their beliefs, not "leaving the window open" for ANY possibility that Japanese could be Egyptian.
Being a student of history, I can say that the window is pretty closed. There is no evidence whatsoever, neither linguistically nor genetically nor historically, which supports the notion that "Japanese could be Egyptian". Any hard evidence could push the window open, though (that's science for you).

Pronunciation of Egyptian words? You are correct... who knows their exact pronunciation
[...]
I stand by my theories, that Japanese mythology names and Egyptian mythology are EXTREMELY similar, if not virtually EXACT.
Oxymoron?! How would you know? This Serau-Soryu thingy looks very much like wishful thinking & the rest of your list is not far behind.

[EdZiomek]

Mr. Bossell, choose to not believe if you wish. You seem to be emotionally locked into "not wanting to believe", fine! I say it is academics, not emotion.

Two of your own quotes...

"Egyptian pronunciation is largely unknown, we have estimates but not much more. What we have from the hieroglyphs are only consonants, vowls are almost completely out of reach for us."

Actually we DO HAVE a fair, maybe vaguely fair idea of how the Egyptian names were pronounced. That method is comparing the Egyptian names, as translated by various previous historians, with Greek equivalent names, and Japanese equivalent names, and Chinese equivalent names, and Amerindian equivalent names, and English equivalent names.

Sometimes, in some surprising instances, they seem to sound and mean the same, such as the name Khut, Kai Yu, Kiau, Coyo, chaos!

Persons like yourself, Mr. Bossell, are quick to point out that exact pronunciations may be unknown, EVEN BY YOURSELF,

THEREFORE, other ideas MUST BE WRONG! ??? What???

Or that you can't name exactly what the Egyptian name for dragon is...your quote...
"Don't know, my capabilities in ancient Egyptian are rather limited. What comes next to a dragon in Egyptian mythology: probably Apophis (though that depends on time & place of worship, & there are some other creatures which might be interpreted as dragons)."

THEREFORE???, other ideas MUST BE WRONG!???

Exactly my point. 5200 years of Egyptian history, 2600 before the acknowledged Japan existed at 400 BC! The Egyptians had flying serpents, they had griffons (whatever they are), they had sky Gods, under various names and features and varying reverence (good, then bad, then good, then bad again... "Set" for example).

My next post will show my selection of the array of Egyptian "dragons" or their equivalents with Japanese "Dragons". Names like "Kai Yu", spelled by Budge as "Khu", and the Japanese meaning of "Fire dragon", and the Chinese meaning of the dragon "Kiau" of swamps and mountains, and the Aztec-Amerindian "Coyo", as in ... Co-yo-te. The Greek/English similar name might be "Chaos".

I agree and appreciate your revealing comment, Mr. Bossell, but I don't believe your capabilities are limited regarding Egypt, as are my own, but your open-mindedness seems to be clouded by your emotional side...

:cheer: YOU WIN???

[bossel]

Mr. Bossell, choose to not believe if you wish. You seem to be emotionally locked into "not wanting to believe", fine! I say it is academics, not emotion.
Not wanting to believe? Nah, more like not able to believe. Anyway, belief is something I can hardly identify with being academic. Perhaps you confuse spirituality/religion with science?

Actually we DO HAVE a fair, maybe vaguely fair idea of how the Egyptian names were pronounced.
Having a vague idea is not knowledge.

That method is comparing the Egyptian names, as translated by various previous historians,
Most of whom were vaguely guessing, I suppose.

with Greek equivalent names, and Japanese equivalent names, and Chinese equivalent names, and Amerindian equivalent names, and English equivalent names.
Nope, that won't say you anything about the pronunciation in ancient Egyptian. At best this gives you a hint that there were vaguely similar concepts with vaguely similar names in different cultures once in a while. This does not constitute evidence for one culture being directly related to another.

Sometimes, in some surprising instances, they seem to sound and mean the same, such as the name Khut, Kai Yu, Kiau, Coyo, chaos!
You mean "Khut, Kai Yu, Kiau, Coyo, chaos" sound the same? Could you provide the phonetic transcription (with sources), please?

THEREFORE, other ideas MUST BE WRONG! ??? What???
Yep, what? Did I say so? It's more like if you don't know the exact pronunciation, your ideas of ideas of similarity/equality are largely unfounded.

Or that you can't name exactly what the Egyptian name for dragon is...your quote...
THEREFORE???, other ideas MUST BE WRONG!???
Hmm, did I say so? Could you quote me on that?

5200 years of Egyptian history, 2600 before the acknowledged Japan existed at 400 BC! The Egyptians had flying serpents, they had griffons (whatever they are), they had sky Gods, under various names and features and varying reverence (good, then bad, then good, then bad again... "Set" for example).
Ah, finally you see the point! Your "similarities" (if they are in any way similar at all) are most probably largely coincidental.

Names like "Kai Yu", spelled by Budge as "Khu", and the Japanese meaning of "Fire dragon", and the Chinese meaning of the dragon "Kiau" of swamps and mountains, and the Aztec-Amerindian "Coyo", as in ... Co-yo-te. The Greek/English similar name might be "Chaos".
It would be nice if you would use a more scientific approach in giving definitions & sources. Esp. if you come up with stuff from languages not usually written in alphabets, the transcription method should be mentioned (or you should use the original). Eg. if Kiao is Chinese, what are the Chinese characters? Or at least give the PinYin transcription! BTW, speaking of Chinese: You would also have to say which Chinese you mean, Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka or some other?

If you want to support your case you would also have to dig deep into historical linguistics & find the 1st occurrence of the words in question, their original meaning & other stuff.

your open-mindedness seems to be clouded by your emotional side...[/I]
I doubt that my emotional side is strong enough for that.

YOU WIN???
I always win. (except when I don't)

[EdZiomek]

Egyptian "Destroyer of Souls", Monster Gods not necessarily "dragon"
Khu (the beatified spirits), Kaiu, related to Khufu, can also mean "foreigner" and "earth monster" (see first attached jpeg)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/gate/gate20.htm

Japanese Dragons kaiju, kiyo
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Kaiju

Japanese dragon monsters (kaijin = earth monster, ?? is this the origin of ?? gaijin = foreigner)

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/k/kiyo.html
Japanese waitress, "Kiyo" turns into dragon, flaming breath, kills people

Chinese Dragon Kiao lung
http://www.theserenedragon.net/Tales/china-kiaolung.html
kiao lung chinese dragon Dragon of swamps, mountains

http://www.theserenedragon.net/Tales/china-general.html#classspecific

Amerindian/Aztecan Dragon-like animal "Coyo" (Valley of Mexico)
"Coyoacan +coyotes" on Yahoo search
Coyohuacan, Coyoacan "place of the coyotes"

See second attached jpeg, showing Aztec double temple of Coyohuacan and Aztecan "dragon figure", "Coyo".
Third JPEG shows Coyohuacan's position at entrance to Aztecan "underworld" of Tenoch-titlan, "God of Darkness, Underworld". Coyohuacan sits in opposition to the "bent mountain" of Colhuacan. The two "pillars" stand guard as all souls enter the Gateway to the Underworld

Readers of this thread, choose to believe or not to believe. We are all related, all connected, all the same family all over the world, with the same roots.

[bossel]

Amerindian/Aztecan Dragon-like animal "Coyo" (Valley of Mexico)
"Coyoacan +coyotes" on Yahoo search
Coyohuacan, Coyoacan "place of the coyotes"
Might it be that this "Dragon-like animal "Coyo"" is simply an artistic representation of a coyote?

Third JPEG shows Coyohuacan's position at entrance to Aztecan "underworld" of Tenoch-titlan, "God of Darkness, Underworld".
Er..., perhaps simply a map of where the city was situated (near the lake Texcoco, I think).

Readers of this thread, choose to believe or not to believe.
Ah, I see. A religious matter.

PS: Still waiting for some linguistic material.