Australian Government siding with Japanese Illegal whaling

[earthangel]

Report from the Farley Mowat

December 30, 2006

Three ships continue to chase the Japanese whaling fleet along the coast of Antarctica
The Greenpeace ship Esperanza is the fastest vessel and is keeping on the tail of the Nisshin Maru.
The Greenpeace ship Arctic Sunrise and the Sea Shepherd ship Farley Mowat are running flanking positions in an effort to spot the Japanese harpoon vessels which have been out of sight for days.
The conservation ships are sweeping the along the coast corridor with radar and helicopter reconnaissance flights with the objective of ferreting out the positions of the illegal harpoon vessels.
There is no question but that the Japanese fleet is on the run, speeding westward and there is no evidence of any whaling activity taking place since Christmas day.
"We have certainly made an impact down here against these pirate whalers," said Captain Paul Watson. "They are being harassed and they know they are being harassed."
Meanwhile Australian Environment Minister Ian Campbell is accusing Sea Shepherd of endangering the factory ship Nisshin Maru on Christmas Day.
"The video clearly shows that it was the Farley Mowat that had the right of way and the Nisshin Maru attempted to ram our ship," said Captain Watson. "Despite the evidence, when the Japanese complain, Campbell goes running to appease Tokyo. Is there no limit to how low these politicians will go to kow tow to Japan over trade agreements?" He said.
Captain Watson has informed Ian Campbell that if he has charges against Sea Shepherd or himself, he will return to Australia to face whateever charges Australia can concoct.
"Stop threatening us and charge us if you believe we are acting unlawfully. Stop posing for the Japanese. Show us you have authority down here in these waters Mr. Campbell, charge us, and then explain how you have authority over me as a Canadian on a Canadian ship but not the Japanese who are in blatant violation of international conservation and Australian laws in Australian territorial waters?"
Sea Shepherd has officially requested the presence of an Australian Naval vessel to monitor the activities in the Southern Ocean.
Ian Campbell has refused to send a naval vessel on the grounds that Japan does not recognize the Australian Antarctic Territory.
The question must be asked : Does Australia claim the Australian Antarctic Territory or not? If not then the name should be taken off the maps and charts and the area surrendered to Japanese exploitation.

LETTER TO IAN CAMPBELL

To Senator Ian Campbell
Minister of the Environment for Australia

December 30, 2005

Dear Mr. Campbell,
Once again I am officially requesting that you send an Australian Naval vessel to the Southern Oceans to monitor the activities down in this area.
It appears that whenever the Japanese register a complaint you believe them. You need to have your own eyes and ears down here before you start threatening us with charges for crimes we have not committed.
"Stop threatening us and charge us if you believe we are acting unlawfully. Stop posing for the Japanese. Show us you have authority down here in these waters Mr. Campbell, charge us, and then explain how you have authority over me as a Canadian on a Canadian ship but not the Japanese who are in blatant violation of international conservation and Australian laws in Australian territorial waters?"
Are you ordering us out of the waters of the Australian Antarctic Territory?
Are you saying that you have jurisdiction over me as a Canadian, my Canadian flagged ship or any of my international crew?
Are you accusing us of breaking or threatening to break any laws within the territory of Australia?
We would like to know where we stand with Australia concerning our activities in opposition to the illegal whaling operations of the Japanese whaling fleet.
We await your advice on these questions.

Sincerely


Captain Paul Watson
Master of the Farley Mowat
Founder and President of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (1977)
Co-Founder of the Greenpeace Foundation (1972)
Co-Founder of Greenpeace International (1979)







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[isanatori]

Is that information or activism, from you, Earthangel ?

Paul Watson is a convicted terrorist. Sea Shepherd has been banned from attending IWC meetings as an observer.
When Watson says that he's ready to go to any Australian court that would charge him, he forgets to mention that he had been charged in Norway and didn't show up although he said he would. This guy is no more than a fanatic who cannot keep his word.

[Aussie_Chick]

Australians would prefer to see these whaling ships blown out of the water. And not before time.

[nurizeko]

I only hope the eco-pirates stray into japanese waters so the Japanese self defence naval forces can blow the buggers out of the seas.

Sorry, but quite honestly, you nut-job eco-fanatics have no positive role in conservation, like islamic terrorists and other evilos like hitler, your just using it as an excuse to be rogues and thugs outside the law.


If australia did send a naval ship it would be to board and arrest the eco-loons. And if you bothered to pay attention, the australian antertic territory, along with every other antertic territory has been frozen by a UN treaty decades ago, the continent is officially no-mans land for the pupouses of scientific study and investigation.

As such Australia doesnt have any claim to antartica or territorial waters around it, until such a time as this treaty that was made is revoked, which seems unlikely for the forseeable future.

In lamen terms, International waters, lol, not asutralian jurisdiction.

[Dudley]

Is that information or activism, from you, Earthangel ?
Paul Watson is a convicted terrorist. Sea Shepherd has been banned from attending IWC meetings as an observer.
When Watson says that he's ready to go to any Australian court that would charge him, he forgets to mention that he had been charged in Norway and didn't show up although he said he would. This guy is no more than a fanatic who cannot keep his word.

Um, where, when and what was Paul Watson convicted for ?

[sanji]

Um, where, when and what was Paul Watson convicted for ?
It takes just a couple of seconds to find abondant references on the criminal charges:

Watson was arrested in 1993 in Canada on charges stemming from actions against Cuban and Spanish fishing boats off the coast of Newfoundland. In 1997, Watson was convicted in absentia by Norway on charges of sinking the small scale Norwegian fishing vessel Nybrænna in 1992, but Dutch authorities refused to hand him over to Norwegian authorities although he did spend at least 60 days in detention in the Netherlands before being released.
source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Watson

You can also read this abstract : http://www.highnorth.no/library/movements/Sea_Shepherd/pa-wa-to.htm
sanji

[Toni]

I only hope the eco-pirates stray into japanese waters so the Japanese self defence naval forces can blow the buggers out of the seas.
Sorry, but quite honestly, you nut-job eco-fanatics have no positive role in conservation, like islamic terrorists and other evilos like hitler, your just using it as an excuse to be rogues and thugs outside the law.
If australia did send a naval ship it would be to board and arrest the eco-loons. And if you bothered to pay attention, the australian antertic territory, along with every other antertic territory has been frozen by a UN treaty decades ago, the continent is officially no-mans land for the pupouses of scientific study and investigation.
As such Australia doesnt have any claim to antartica or territorial waters around it, until such a time as this treaty that was made is revoked, which seems unlikely for the forseeable future.
In lamen terms, International waters, lol, not asutralian jurisdiction.
Is it just me or if you care about the biodiversity of our waters then you get labeled "nut-job fanatics"? These people are doing the only thing they can do to stop ILLEGAL WHALING, and if your trying to tell me that it's being done for scientific research then you can try again because thats a load of collywobble! It comes down to what they're doing is illegal, New Zealand certainly doesn't fuel ships but Australia does and why? because of trade agreements. Now I understand the implications of messing up trade with Japan but is the alternative to allow whalers to kill whale populations till they're extinct? it comes down to being greedy and ignorant.

[Sarapva]

It sounds to me like Captain Paul Watson is doing a good job! Otherwise, why would governments get upset about what he's doing? I say thank God for people like Paul Watson who care enough about the planet to actually do something tangible to try to stop the killers and rapists of the sea.

[tokapi]

Japan & Australia are in a diplomatic honeymoon.Some younger generation Japanese are very fond of Australia nowadays and prefer to emigrate there.:blush:

[centrajapan]

Japan is NOT DOING ANY ILLEAGAL WHALING!! Thats like saying Australians are in Australia illeagaly and they should all go back to where they come from. Some stinking prison in Hull.

Australians are probably the most clueless on the topic of whaling. It seems like it is their religion to be against whaling and they don't back it up with facts but rather irrational sentiments.

Whaling is indeed eco friendly.
Whaling does not destroy the bio diversity of the habitat unlike beef, pork, sheep or any other domesticated animal.

Australia is leading the world in mammals gone extinct. Instead of telling what Japan should not eat stop killing kangaroos. How many kangaroo spiecies must you kill to extinction and do not vent your anger on Japan and other whalers.

Not 1 whale spiecies have ever been driven to extinction. How many kangaroo spieces have?
Whaling is a much more eco friendly form of meat production than beef.

If Australia is against whaling. Fine. Come with better arguments because all their arguments are too easy to rip apart.

Religion and science is like discussing apples and oranges. Let us discuss science.

Watson is labaled a terrorist by Greenpeace. This man is mad. The Inuits hate him too.

[centrajapan]

The more I read the title of this thread, I tell myself, why bother? But then it irks me a bit so I will now explain.

Japanese Illegal whaling... There is nothing illeagal about Japanese whaling. Do anti whaling fanatics just spew out lies and defend their stance by utter more crap? If you think whales are amazing animals and think they can talk with aliens and should be left alone. Fine. You can do that. If some people think whales is best on a plate then that is OK too. Japanese are not forcing Australians to eat whales. So Australians should not force Japan to stop eating whales. Paul Watson and other Australians are simple racists with very little tolerance to other cultures cusines. Not only are they racists but these Champions Of the Whales are trying to shove their habits and culture down people's throats. This is culture imperialism.

Japanese will eat whales thank you very much and you can eat your kangaroos.

The majority World View is pro sutainable hunt of a natural renewable resources. Australia too is pro sustainable hunt of a natural renweable resources except minke whales.

Japan has no goal to shoot every whale to extinction. It wants to take a small amount of whales from a non endangered stock in international waters. What is wrong about that? Besides Japan is not breaking even 1 international law or agreement. And they are not lying either.

[Rose Selavey]

Centrajapan,
You like accusing Australians of flying off the handle with no evidence and seem to do the same. Australia's ecosystem is very fragile, if only the Europeans realized this when they stepped on this land. The reasons some mammals are becoming extinct in Australia is not due to over culling/eating but from three main factors: loss of habitat (through clearing), feral pests (foxes, rabbits, and thousands of floral weeds) and disease. Some Australians are working to remedy this situation, but with climate change looming vulnerable species will be the first to become extinct as they have less chance of movement/population increases.

The Japanese Institute of Cetacean Research has not given a peer reviewed paper on their so called scientific research on whales for over 2 decades, Australian scientist Dr Peter Harrison (a well respected, well published marine biologists) has challenged the Institute to a debate, they have not come to the party rather they have in a press statement suggested that Dr peter Harrison's research is wrong and lacking in thought and accuracy! Who is writing this stuff for the Japanese, give us some figures and research, please. The humpback whale population in the Southern hemisphere is on the slow incline, show me other figures and we might have a debate.

Eating meat is a personal issue, so why not put it out their that Japan is hasting dolphins and whales for meat, not for scientific research, if 'whales could scream the whaling industry would be finished' as quoted by a Japanese
Whaler.

[pipokun]

Really? How about obesity?
I do not think it is personal at all, but more cultural and public when I see super sized people in your country.

I highly appreciate all countries who export meat to Japan, but Japanese still eat less meat than your country.
http://www.fao.org/statistics/yearbook/vol_1_1/pdf/d06.pdf

Japan cosumes about 2 times more meat than your country, but she has much more population than yours.

[centrajapan]

Japan gives out reports each year on the Japanese Scientific Hunt which gets good feedback at the IWCs Scientific Committee. Japan can only hunt whales if it is through Scientific but Japan wants to hunt commercial.

[Rose Selavey]

Giving out reports at the IWC is totally different to a peer reviewed paper in the scientific community. This data, the majority of which comes from lethal research is often disregarded in further studies. It is consistently reported in IWC forums that this data will not be used when there is comparable data available from non-lethal research.

As to the obesity problem in Australia it is awful and everyone should take note, we eat too much food!

[Sarapva]

Obesity is also a big problem in the U.S. :kanashii:

[Kyoto Returnee]

The more I read the title of this thread, I tell myself, why bother? But then it irks me a bit so I will now explain.

Japanese Illegal whaling... There is nothing illegal about Japanese whaling.

It's illegal in the eyes of many.

This is not a war "Australia against Japan", this is about protecting the whale that Australian, American, and NZ kids are taught to love.

We can't all be blamed for that.

Japan is not killing the whales to eat, it's killing them for scientific research.

I can't remember how many exactly, but I quote the latest news:

"a quota of 935 minke whales and, more controversially, 50 humpbacks and 50 fin whales, regarded respectively as threatened and endangered species."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/japan-put-on-notice-over-whale-hunt/2007/12/19/1197740380464.html (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/japan-put-on-notice-over-whale-hunt/2007/12/19/1197740380464.html)


Do Norweigans eat Whales?
http://www.anglojapanese.com/

[Sarapva]

Thank you for those links, Kyoto. I signed the petition to end the dolphin slaughter. Here is another petition for ending the whale hunt in the Southern Oceans:

http://www.petitiononline.com/wsos1/petition.html

I don't know what it is about the Japanese and inflicting pain on living creatures. They seem to have no concept that their actions cause pain and suffering, or maybe they know but do it anyway? What happened to their empathy?

[centrajapan]

It's illegal in the eyes of many.

This is not a war "Australia against Japan", this is about protecting the whale that Australian, American, and NZ kids are taught to love.

We can't all be blamed for that.

Japan is not killing the whales to eat, it's killing them for scientific research.

I can't remember how many exactly, but I quote the latest news

It is LEAGAL: Just because you don't like something does not mean illeagal. If it was illeagal then why don't AUstralia take their case to an international court? They don't because they know they don't hav a case.

Nice piece of cultural racist imperialism here. You never hear Hindus pressuring AUstralians to stop eating beef. Australians and other anti whalers have some nerve to dictate others what is acceptable to eat and what isn't.

Norwegians eat whales too. I think whales are the most overrated animal on this planet. Australians don't know how to cook kangaroo meat so they should get some Chinese cook to fly in from Hong Kong so that he can prepare an eatable meal for the non cultured Aussies.

Focusing on not wiping mammals on home turf would be a much better contribution to saving the global environemtn. With no sense of irony these champions of the whales from shining Australia has made it their first priority to make people stop eating whales while they on their home turf kill millions of kangaroos each year because they are regarded as pests because they want to give more grass land for cows and sheep which btw is a far greater contributor to global warming than whaling and much less energy efficient.

[Astroboy]

It is LEAGAL: Just because you don't like something does not mean illeagal. If it was illeagal then why don't AUstralia take their case to an international court? They don't because they know they don't hav a case.
Nice piece of cultural racist imperialism here. You never hear Hindus pressuring AUstralians to stop eating beef. Australians and other anti whalers have some nerve to dictate others what is acceptable to eat and what isn't.
Norwegians eat whales too. I think whales are the most overrated animal on this planet. Australians don't know how to cook kangaroo meat so they should get some Chinese cook to fly in from Hong Kong so that he can prepare an eatable meal for the non cultured Aussies.
Focusing on not wiping mammals on home turf would be a much better contribution to saving the global environemtn. With no sense of irony these champions of the whales from shining Australia has made it their first priority to make people stop eating whales while they on their home turf kill millions of kangaroos each year because they are regarded as pests because they want to give more grass land for cows and sheep which btw is a far greater contributor to global warming than whaling and much less energy efficient.

Well said.
It is legal and agreed at IWC. Please do not fabricate story.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Nice piece of cultural racist imperialism here.

Norwegians eat whales too. I think whales are the most overrated animal on this planet. Australians don't know how to cook kangaroo meat so they should get some Chinese cook to fly in from Hong Kong so that he can prepare an eatable meal for the non cultured Aussies.


A Chinese cook from Hong Kong LOL..

[Kyoto Returnee]

Thank you for those links, Kyoto. I signed the petition to end the dolphin slaughter. Here is another petition for ending the whale hunt in the Southern Oceans:

http://www.petitiononline.com/wsos1/petition.html

I don't know what it is about the Japanese and inflicting pain on living creatures. They seem to have no concept that their actions cause pain and suffering, or maybe they know but do it anyway? What happened to their empathy?

I totally agree Sarapva and I signed the petition:148:

Not sure if you have sen the latest dolphin slaughter video, nor would I want anyone to see it but it certainly exposes the truth once and for all.

Rieko and I are actually coming back to Japan.

One of our issues is if we should bring Jiji our cat.

We've had her since a kitten and she is really part of the family. I've never been a cat person, had dogs since I was a kid, but that's another story.

Having said that, besides the expense of bringing Jiji back and the possible stress for her involved, my wife Rieko who is Japanese, keeps reminding me how cruel people in Japan can be to cats, although I keep telling her she doesn't need to remind me as I've seen it whilst I was living their..

People simply ignore them, and the whimpy guys try and scare them..

I used to see dogs tied up 24/7 on a short cord at the front of people's houses..

Most of them had some sort of mental problems.. Poor bloody things..

I will now start a new thread re: animal cruelty laws..
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35033
I think Asia in general do not respect animal right's..

They eat dogs, civet cats, etc...

Enough for me...

[centrajapan]

You can bring your cat over. I know people who brought over cats from Europe. Japanese don't eat dogs or cats. But I don't think it is crueler to eat dogs than pigs. Its cultural preference.

Australia has live animal trade policy which means at times grusome living conditions. Imagine they are over packed on board of a boat from Australia to Middle East. Shipped thousands of miles only to get slaughtered.

http://www.animalliberation.com.au/issues/live_exp.html

[Kyoto Returnee]

Really? How about obesity?
I do not think it is personal at all, but more cultural and public when I see super sized people in your country.


Umm, Whaling in Japan?

[Kyoto Returnee]

Australia has live animal trade policy which means at times grusome living conditions. Imagine they are over packed on board of a boat from Australia to Middle East. Shipped thousands of miles only to get slaughtered.



The live trade policy I would presume is so the meat is fresh once it arrives at it's destination.

Probably a good chance with you in Japan eating the Aussie reared cow at the local Yakiniku or Moss Burger joint.

Don't get me wrong here.. I definitely don't agree with any cruel treatment of animals..

Just for your reference and next post, I'm vegetarianhttp://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5909/smileylaughingdf7.gif

[Rose Selavey]

The live trade policy in Australia is disgusting and should be stopped, many protests happen over this policy, and as an Australian I would like to see it stopped.

The argument that because Australian's eat meat then they can't lobby Japan to change is a crazy argument, as a citizen of democratic nation we have every right to try and change things we do not believe is fair and just. I would encourage you to lobby the Australian government (i can give you email links if you want) to stop any action they are undertaking that is not to your liking.

[centrajapan]

It just shows the hypocarcy of the Australian government.

[caster51]

they are racists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbRoCFlNfkQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXgTWb8JBuA

[Rose Selavey]

they are racists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbRoCFlNfkQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXgTWb8JBuA

Not all Australians are racists, I have never seen that add, it would not get past the Australian advertising standards. This is a u-tube stunt, dis-respectable and inappropriate. But this does not mean Australians are racists.

[Astroboy]

Really?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/Ac.whiteaustralia.jpg

[kame]

The argument that because Australian's eat meat then they can't lobby Japan to change is a crazy argument, as a citizen of democratic nation we have every right to try and change things we do not believe is fair and just. I would encourage you to lobby the Australian government (i can give you email links if you want) to stop any action they are undertaking that is not to your liking.

There is a fine line between diplomatic lobbying and meddling into internal affairs (or messing with somebody else's business). The US would use the same argument to invade oil-producing countries, justify not abiding to CO2 reduction treaties, etc. Your excuses notwithstanding, the Australian policy is perceived no different from imposing of their cultural values based on prejudicial sentiment.

[Rose Selavey]

Really?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/Ac.whiteaustralia.jpg

The white Australian policy did occur in Australia's history, and as an indigenous Australian I find that sheild offensive, as would most Australians. Again, not all Australians are racists.
As written by Kame:
There is a fine line between diplomatic lobbying and meddling into internal affairs (or messing with somebody else's business). The US would use the same argument to invade oil-producing countries, justify not abiding to CO2 reduction treaties, etc. Your excuses notwithstanding, the Australian policy is perceived no different from imposing of their cultural values based on prejudicial sentiment.

Australia is not the only nation opposed to the slaughter of Minke, Fin and humpbacks whales in a commercial manner rather than in a traditional manner. 31 nations signed a demarche presented to the Japanese Government.

[kame]

Not all Australians are racists, I have never seen that add, it would not get past the Australian advertising standards. This is a u-tube stunt, dis-respectable and inappropriate. But this does not mean Australians are racists.

I think that the ad is ridiculous and don't think that all Australians are racists. But there's racism in every country and culture including in Japan. The question here is, is the Australian anti-whaling movement based partially on racism?

Maybe a little, but I would say that the major motivation is to political and economical.

Naive arguments that people like Rose make (but officials in IWC would never make because they know they can't justify), like kangaroo hunting is okay but whaling is not, could be perceived as racially motivated because they implicitly target specific culture with under a double standard.

[Sukotto]

i really don't have any clue on this,
but isn't there some sort of international agreement
that only indigenous cultures are allowed to do whaling?

[Sukotto]

why should i listen to anything Paul McCarthy has to say?
isn't he the one who is responsible for breaking up the Beatles?
(ha! leave Yoko Ono alone. the album title "let it be" i heard,
was because the break was inevitable)
Oh, sports. :football: Yup. Real good reason to shoot something. Sure. Always is. :wary: If it wasn't for sports there'd be people going hungry in this world.


If you want to boycott a drink you have to pay for make it Killer Coke (http://www.killercoke.org/).
There's company that definitely has responsibility no matter how
much they deny.

[kame]

Australia is not the only nation opposed to the slaughter of Minke, Fin and humpbacks whales in a commercial manner rather than in a traditional manner. 31 nations signed a demarche presented to the Japanese Government.

The number of countries doesn't make the perception any less prejudicial or racially-motivated by the people who are affected by the irrational banning of commercial whaling. Ever thought about small whaling villages in Japan whose people have made living by whaling for longer than the modern history of Australia and US? If you are an indigenous Australian, you must be able to imagine the pain and suffering of the people's centuries-old culture totally denied by politically engineered IWC's restrictions.

[centrajapan]

whales in a commercial manner rather than in a traditional manner

All whaling is commercial whether they are using hand held harpoons or hi tech harpoons.

[Kyoto Returnee]

I think what Centrajapan is trying to say that Australians are racist because they disagree with Japan hunting and slaughtering the poor whales.

Not sure how he can justify racism because of this.

Australia and Japan are very close and share many things.

I have a Japanese girl living downstairs, three more in my block, quite a few across the road, and allover Cairns. We can't all be racist!

Living in Japan for Aussies is a breeze as we have such a good reputation and image.

[caster51]

Not sure how he can justify racism because of this.
it is very simple
once Dutch made a colony in asia
Japan did ,too
How can they complain to other...

it is same that Australian kills poor kangaroo.
only racist Justify it.....
because they are surperior
it means "we are correct. you are wrong" in same action

[Kyoto Returnee]

it is very simple
once Dutch made a colony in asia
Japan did ,too
How can they complain to other...

it is same that Australian kills poor kangaroo.
only racist Justify it.....
because they are surperior
it means "we are correct. you are wrong" in same action

Are Australian's racists because they kill Kangaroos or is it the other way around?

Do Australian's think they are superior to Kangaroos or Japanese and why?

[caster51]

at first, Austraria should quit to kill poor Kangaroos.
then ask Japan:cool:

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello Caster51

it is very simple
once Dutch made a colony in asia
Japan did ,too
How can they complain to other...


I am Dutch, but the above sounds double Dutch to me.

Australia was never a Dutch colony. Abel Tasmas discovered Australia and Tasmania in 1642. Abel Tasman was a Dutch explorer.
It must have been a real great adventure in those days.

[caster51]

Australia was never a Dutch colony
I never said that.:relief:

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Caster51,

Indonesia was a Dutch colony in Asia. The Dutch are no longer living in Asia.
Indonesians are not complaining about the Japanese whaling.

So what did you mean?

[caster51]

Indonesia was a Dutch colony in Asia. The Dutch are no longer living in Asia.
Indonesians are not complaining about the Japanese whaling

Japan never complains about Dutch colony in the past.

Dutch does not have right to complain about others of the Past

so does not Austraria about the Japanese whaling if they are not racist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8XM7yNjAE&feature=related
about this one, we do fight. look at this racist aussi
they are always violent

[centrajapan]

I think what Centrajapan is trying to say that Australians are racist because they disagree with Japan hunting and slaughtering the poor whales.

Not sure how he can justify racism because of this.

It is not Australia's business what Japanese choose to eat and not to eat. Australia is denying Japanese to hunt whales despite the fact that the whale spiecies Japan wants to hunt is no where near being endangered. The stocks are abdundant.

kame. Keep up with the good posts. Very informative and very rational.

[kame]

I know it is annoying and frustrating to be accused of being a racist. Centrajapan is kind of his style to be aggressive and caster51 is just too influent in English to get his point across. But I do think that those who make anti-whaling arguments based on anything other than pure scientific issues can be well PERCEIVED prejudicial and racist in the eye of those who do like to whale, and you should be well aware of that fact when making such arguments. Just saying that you don't intend any racism does not free you from the guilt. Like sexual harrassment, racism is often totally unrealized by those who offend.

To the eyes of Japanese, Australians do seem to have double standard about whaling which can easily be perceived as (at least partially) based on racism. It implies intolerance, targeting specific cultures based on a standard that you don't apply to your own. For example, anyone cares to answer this?

I fail to see what the fundamental difference is between hunting millions of wild kangaroos (commercially) and hunting whales in a sustainable way. Both are mammals (seems that matters to some people, I don't know why), both are wild, both are eaten and other parts used effectively, both are adorable creatures to many people (if you poll Japanese kids for popularity, I bet kangaroos would win 9 to 1), both are valuable as tourist attraction, and the list goes on.

Could someone present a convincing argument that would justify one type of hunting over another? If you say you oppose both, I think that's an opinion that I can respect.

[Sarapva]

I fail to see what the fundamental difference is between hunting millions of wild kangaroos (commercially) and hunting whales in a sustainable way.

Could someone present a convincing argument that would justify one type of hunting over another? If you say you oppose both, I think that's an opinion that I can respect.

Kangaroos belong to Australia, so it's Australia's decision about what to do with them. (I oppose any killing that is done in an imhumane manner, causing pain. I think if killing has to be done to control populations, it should be done as quickly as possible to minimize the animals' suffering.)

Whales don't belong to any country - therefore, it's within any country's rights to oppose killing whales. Insulting and accusing others is just going around the problem.

[Rose Selavey]

As Sara has mentioned Kangaroos are Australian on Australian territory and are governed by Australian law. There are International standards with regard to how these animals are killed. The reason I have even mentioned them is because centrjapan has constantly used this fact to justify killing whales. Kangaroos and whales are two very different situations as Sara has explained. Australia's want of protection for the whales (all whales) is not a racially motivated attack on Japan.

The difference between commercial whaling and traditional whaling is so dramatic it should not even be a question. Traditional or indigenous hunting does not mean using old methods or equipment, it means hunting a similar number of species to be utilized by the community directly associated with the hunt. This could mean selling off parts of the hunt for consumers outside the community in a sustainable manner. An example of this would be a small fishing village in Japan hunts a number of whales a year for the consumption of the community and for a way for that community to maintain their lifestyle. The community has a connection with the species being hunted are is therefore more likely to hunt sustainably.
A commercial operation is different paid workers hunt catch and kill large numbers, with no connection to the species and with little more to show for it other than a pay packet.

[kame]

Kangaroos belong to Australia, so it's Australia's decision about what to do with them. (I oppose any killing that is done in an imhumane manner, causing pain. I think if killing has to be done to control populations, it should be done as quickly as possible to minimize the animals' suffering.)
Whales don't belong to any country - therefore, it's within any country's rights to oppose killing whales.

Yes, whales don't belong to any country. Therefore, it's within any country's rights to pursue sustainable utilization of the marine resource wether it's commercial or otherwise. Yes countries can oppose whaling but only based on sustainability and scientific facts. They can ban whaling withing their own waters. And your argument seems to justify hunting Minks within the Japanese waters all they want since its within their territory.

Australia can kill kangaroos all they want since they are not endangered. Whaling (even commercial) should be allowed if it can be proven that a certain level of whaling does not endanger that whale species. We do that for tunas, salmons, and other marine resources. There is no justifiable reason to treat whales differently (they are mammals? oh please...).

There is a fine line between lobbying for you want and sticking its head into a neigbor's refrigerator.

[centrajapan]

Australians should not kill kangaroos for fun. Thats just barbaric. If they kill it eat it atleast.

[kame]

As Sara has mentioned Kangaroos are Australian on Australian territory and are governed by Australian law. There are International standards with regard to how these animals are killed. The reason I have even mentioned them is because centrjapan has constantly used this fact to justify killing whales. Kangaroos and whales are two very different situations as Sara has explained. Australia's want of protection for the whales (all whales) is not a racially motivated attack on Japan.

Over 3 million wild kangaroos "harvested" each year in Australia vs thousands of whales caught by Japan. More than 1000 kangaroos are killed for each whale killed by Japanese.

I don't believe all "harvested" kangaroos are eaten by humans? Even with your Australian appetite, I don't think you can stomach 15 kangaroos per person per year! I agree, those are quite different situations.

No matter what you say, in the light of that kind of double standard, Japanese people will sense that it is at least partially motivated by prejudice. Opposition cases should be made on strictly scientific terms, with sustainable whale-harvesting as the goal (which is what IWC is supposed to be all about).

[Kyoto Returnee]

Over 3 million wild kangaroos "harvested" each year in Australia vs thousands of whales caught by Japan. More than 1000 kangaroos are killed for each whale killed by Japanese.

I don't believe all "harvested" kangaroos are eaten by humans? Even with your Australian appetite, I don't think you can stomach 15 kangaroos per person per year! I agree, those are quite different situations.

No matter what you say, in the light of that kind of double standard, Japanese people will sense that it is at least partially motivated by prejudice. Opposition cases should be made on strictly scientific terms, with sustainable whale-harvesting as the goal (which is what IWC is supposed to be all about).

You guys seem to be totally ignoring what Sara and Rose are saying which is totally correct.

[centrajapan]

Australians can kill kangaroos and throw away the meat to rot because they are Australian but Japan can not kill whales in international waters to eat because whales are such beautiful creatures? Who can argue with such pragmatic well balanced views based on science and facts. Could you possibly understand that not all people look at whales in the saem manner as Australia does? If there are 700,000 minke whales and Japan takes 1,000. Australians can still look at the remainding 699,000 whales either on Discovery channel or from their whale safari boat.

15 kangaroos. There are 365 days in a year. Actually you only need to eat kangaroos everyday for a month then you are done. How big is a kangaroo? 10 kilo grams? Actually it is a lot. You have to eat 10 kilograms of kangaroos everyday for a month. Actually Australians should be eating kangaroo meat every day looking at how many they slaughter each year for fun.

It's kanagroo apartheitism. The symbol of Australia.

In international waters. What we need to take into account is stock numbers based on scientific findings. If you believe whaling is no longer needed then that decision is up to Japan. If you are against Japanese eating whales then the reasons should be based on scientific findings. That is the whole objective of IWC which Australia has voluntarily signed under.

[Sarapva]

You guys seem to be totally ignoring what Sara and Rose are saying which is totally correct.

Thank you - Yes, this discussion of kangaroos is getting tiring. It's whales we're discussing, it's Australia that has the authority in regard to kangaroos, and this is completely off topic!

What is the argument anyway? Japan is still whale hunting.

[centrajapan]

So it is worse to kill whales for food than to kill kangaroos for fun?

[Rose Selavey]

Over 3 million wild kangaroos "harvested" each year in Australia vs thousands of whales caught by Japan. More than 1000 kangaroos are killed for each whale killed by Japanese.
I don't believe all "harvested" kangaroos are eaten by humans? Even with your Australian appetite, I don't think you can stomach 15 kangaroos per person per year! I agree, those are quite different situations.
No matter what you say, in the light of that kind of double standard, Japanese people will sense that it is at least partially motivated by prejudice. Opposition cases should be made on strictly scientific terms, with sustainable whale-harvesting as the goal (which is what IWC is supposed to be all about).
I have never stated that the Kangaroos are consumed by only humans (go and look at previous threads). If it was America, Canada, France, Indonesia, Spain or even NZ going into Antarctic waters (a sanctuary for all animals and a place for research) to slaughter whales I would be against. I think those who believe it is racially motivated need to get out more.

[Sarapva]

If it was America, Canada, France, Indonesia, Spain or even NZ going into Antarctic waters (a sanctuary for all animals and a place for research) to slaughter whales I would be against. I think those who believe it is racially motivated need to get out more.

Well said, Rose! It's like a person going into their neighbor's yard and wreaking havoc - the neighbor comes out and says, "Get out of here! Stop doing that!" The person says, "You're discriminating against me because I'm black."

[Kyoto Returnee]

So it is worse to kill whales for food than to kill kangaroos for fun?

Whales and Kangaroos are very different scenarios as Rose and Sara explained, and could not put it better myself.

[caster51]

Whales and Kangaroos are very different scenarios as Rose and Sara explained, and could not put it better myself

it is same.
dont kill poor kangaroo

[centrajapan]

I'd say it is worse. Its much worse to kill kangaroos for fun then to kill whales for food. Australia has no right to condemn Japan on ethical grounds because they can't live up to the standard themselves. Actually their ethical stance is worse than that of Japan.

[kame]

We hunt tunas and salmons and other wild species in international waters, under appropriate international negotiations based on sustainability. So there is no justification not to allow whaling for reasons other than sustainability.

If anything, kangaroos are in a worse situation than whales because the Australians seem to think they OWN them and their fate, and there seems to be LESS chance of international intervention if any of them are endangered. After all, the reason that the kangaroo population exploded is because Australians killed all the predators that fed on kangaroos.

Well, for the country that let most mammalian species go extinct, the attitude of "we own animals that live on this continent" may not be surprising.

Kangaroos are not irrelevant to this discussion. Whaling relates to wildlife conservation and utilization in general and it is useful to discuss whales in comparison to other wildlife.

[Goldiegirl]

At least I have changed the hearts and minds of 3 Japanese people when it comes to "not" whaling. That's a start albeit it a small one.

Just because one country does something wrong doesn't give another country the right to do the same wrong. As my mother always taught us, two wrongs don't make a right.

[Pepe]

Australians should not kill kangaroos for fun. Thats just barbaric. If they kill it eat it atleast.

AFAIK 'roos are only culled or farmed ('roo steaks are gaining popularity There are too many 'roos in Oz, causing havoc in suburbs and even central cities.

Back to the discussion at hand - whales are a resource, and like any resource should be managed to sustainment. But it is wrong for any person (or nation) to impose its opinions on another - and claiming that hunting whales is wrong is nothing other than one persons opinion.

[Sarapva]

At least I have changed the hearts and minds of 3 Japanese people when it comes to "not" whaling. That's a start albeit it a small one.

Thank you, Goldiegirl! That's an accomplishment there, even to change the mind of one person.

Thank you also, Pepe - it certainly is just opinion, which we are all entitled to.

[kame]

I have never stated that the Kangaroos are consumed by only humans (go and look at previous threads). If it was America, Canada, France, Indonesia, Spain or even NZ going into Antarctic waters (a sanctuary for all animals and a place for research) to slaughter whales I would be against. I think those who believe it is racially motivated need to get out more.

At least you seem to have personal grudge against Japanese in that you call them imperialist pigs in response to a Norwegian's inflammatory remark.

Anyway, I said anti-whaling is motivated by "prejudice". Prejudice against people and culture that eat whales as food. You may or may not be one of them, but there are people who just despise the habit of eating whales regardless of where or how they are caught. That's a prejudice against whale-eating people and cultures.

If you are not opposed to whaling provided that certain conditions are met (like sustainability and limiting hunting in certain regions) I would say that you are not prejudicial in that regard, but you are just concerned about the practical implementation of whaling to preserve them. If you are against whaling at any condition like many people in this forum are, I would consider you culturely prejudiced (or what centrajapan calls "cultural imperialist").

Are you against whaling done outside your sanctuary too?

[Chi65]

What a joke. . .

Make up your boxes, Kame, like other targets.
Its the first time I openly boo a Japanese.

If you want my own points, that do not fit into either of your categories, you can do so here:
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35180
and further on.

And I always respected Japanese people and those from other countries, until they came with open violence and ignorance. . .

I am glad, I made many more good experiences in your native country, and will hold that deep love up. But that does not keep me away from shaking my head with wonder from one person now.

[centrajapan]

If you really respected the Japanese culture then you would respect the choice the Japanese take. Why is it worse to eat whale meat than beef? It might be to you but not Japanese people. In the end of the day it is the Japanese who should decide what they should eat and not Australians or Germans.

If one culture or country impose their habits onto an other against the will of the people of that country that becomes cultural imperialism.

Chi you are selfcontradicting yourself.

Do you eat meat and what kind of shoes do you wear?

[Chi65]

If you really respected the Japanese culture then you would respect the choice the Japanese take. Why is it worse to eat whale meat than beef? It might be to you but not Japanese people. In the end of the day it is the Japanese who should decide what they should eat and not Australians or Germans.
If one culture or country impose their habits onto an other that becomes cultural imperialism.
Chi you are selfcontradicting yourself.


Completely pointless and simply projected.
Maybe you finally start reading what I really wrote,
from the beginning, please, and everything:

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35180

[centrajapan]

It is not pointless. Please answer a simple question.

Do you eat meat and what kind of shoes do you wear?

As I already have stated 100 times. There are no environmental reasoning for why minke whales which are not endangered should not be hunted sustainably. Especially when compared with beef, prok or lamb which is less environmental friendly than whale meat.

[Chi65]

It is not pointless. Please answer a simple question.
Do you eat meat and what kind of shoes do you wear?
You did not relate to my writings at the first place and you know already , that I never said, that I am a vegetarian, mister ridiculous dictator.
you better read more properly.
Its still a pointless question only meant for puperty targeting.

[centrajapan]

I think, if some would just kill some for own use, it would be alright, but since its dependant on a much larger scale, and will accordingly grow, if let, its a very critical issue and should be watched on a larger scale too.

Sometimes something reaches the border of acceptances, and then it has to change, no matter, where and what.

That would be reasonable and carefull, not a point of keeping a tradition under all circumstances. As sorry as I am for them, and thats not just a word.

What is worn out, is worn out. They must find new ways for a living.

Well you ingore a couple of ecological realities here. The minke whale is not an endangered spiecies. It never has been an endangered spiecies. The ban on minke whale hunting has no environmental reasoning because minke whales are not endangered. You also ignore that other countries hunted whales for oil and not food. Why should Japan give up eating whales because other countries hunted whales for oil? Also. the whales which Japan wants to hunt for food are different than the whales which other countries hunted for oil YOu are mixing apples and oranges. And guess what? The whale spiecies which were hunted for oil. Japan has no intentions of huting them.

Whaling will not grow. The reason why Japan is doing research together with other whaling countries is to make sure that whales will not become endangered despite the hunt. Thats the whole point of the Scientific Research.

The number of whales which are allowed to be hunted is calculated by how big the stock is and how much the growth rate is.

As I have said 100 times already. The reasons why many countries oppose whaling is because those countries have no tradition in eating whale meat. Its a matter of cultural preference. Now those countries who have no tradition eating whale meat is imposing their cultural stance onto Japan without any scientific reasoning despite the fact that whale meat is more environmental friendly than eating lamb, pork and especially beef.

[Chi65]

As I have said 100 times already. The reasons why many countries oppose whaling is because those countries have no tradition in eating whale meat. Its a matter of cultural preference. Now those countries who have no tradition eating whale meat is imposing their cultural stance onto Japan without any scientific reasoning despite the fact that whale meat is more environmental friendly than eating lamb, pork and especially beef.

I ignore nothing and have read it all, also from others, young man.
And my words stay firm.
Its up to you to at least try to understand them, how they are written and meant, not the way you wish to twist them.

Maybe it works better without alcohol?

[centrajapan]

If countries oppose Japan on cultural preference then they are practicing cultural imperialism and you support that and that makes you a racist. That was my point. Some people fail to realize that they have racist attituded with or without alcohol.

[Chi65]

If countries oppose Japan on cultural preference then they are practicing cultural imperialism and you support that and that makes you a racist. That was my point. Some people fail to realize that they have racist attituded with or without alcohol.

Pure blind rubbish, as before. . .wake up or use your glasses, on your nose preferably.

[centrajapan]

It is not rubbish. Just because you don't like hearing something that you don't like to hear does not make it rubbish.

You are against Japanese whaling because of cultural preference and you support the ban on Japan which makes you a supporter of cultural imperialism.

[Chi65]

I don't like it if people try to put an false and unfitting shoe onto my feet, thats all, they will always get it back. Trying it nevertheless is violence and causes only laughter here in the end.

Wake up!

[centrajapan]

You probably are upset to be labeled a cultural imperialist but as I stated earlier you have racist attitudes if you are against Japanese whaling and as I also stated previously some people despite thinking they aren't racist do have racist attitudes without realizing them.

You wake up.

[Chi65]

Go on projecting your twisted mind, LOL, upset? Its funny to watch you. . .

Why don't you just read, whats there and not what YOU make out of it?
(in general)

[Sarapva]

You are against Japanese whaling because of cultural preference and you support the ban on Japan which makes you a supporter of cultural imperialism.

These are general assumptions, centrajapan - if you believe this, you should keep it to yourself. It doesn't help any discussions. We all have our opinions - it doesn't mean that because of them we automatically fall into a certain category. And if you believe it does, please keep that to yourself.

[centrajapan]

It's my opinion and I explain in details why I believe it to be so. The only answer I get is you wake up and personal insults and sicne she can't counter argue my argument without personal abuse it strengthens my argument even further.

You Sarapva have stated that you are a vegeterian and don't think it is worse to kill whales than cows making your stance different than Chi65.

However you also said that you were an environmentalist and since whaling is more eco friendly than beef then killing cows should be worse than killing whales if you are consitant in your views. No?

[Sarapva]

I don't know which is worse - but since this is a forum about whaling, I'm discussing whaling and not factory farms. If this was a thread about factory farms, I'd be stating my opinion to be against them.

[Chi65]

It's my opinion and I explain in details why I believe it to be so. The only answer I get is you wake up and personal insults and sicne she can't counter argue my argument without personal abuse it strengthens my argument even further.

That blind little boy can't be helped LOL. You have nothing to base your beliefs on, except from your made up ones, thus its not my part that has to explain. If anyone, then you, and you better ask yourself, why you do this game.
Do you know Zappa?
"its in your mihihihind"

A good discussion relates to the real written stuff, not to ignorances and projections, and after all, respect for the other side, not just from one side.
But who behaves like a . . .will eventually be handled like one.

Your wild vegetarian discussion could be read on another thread and it was more than clear, that all you wanted was another cheap, yes, cheap fight. boy oh boy. . .how "impressive" and :mad:

Never mind, since I know that you can be good, if you want, well, if. . .
have a smile :-)

[centrajapan]

I don't know which is worse - but since this is a forum about whaling, I'm discussing whaling and not factory farms. If this was a thread about factory farms, I'd be stating my opinion to be against them

The reason why there are discussions on whaling is not because Japanese eat whales but because non Japan have a hard time with the fact that Japanese eat whales. This is because in some cultures whales are regarded as sacred animals. Where as in Japan they are not regarded in the same way as in many western countries.

That is why there are debates and that is why other countries want to make Japan stop hunting whales. They are putting their cultural preference on Japan who has a different cultural preference.

[centrajapan]

Japan is not arguing if killing whales is wrong or right. Japanese think it is right. If Japanese think it is right it is up to Japan to have that opinion. Japanese think it is right to eat whales so to be able to eat whales they come with scientific reasoning.

Stock numbers, growth rate of whales, and how many whales they can hunt and still make sure it is sustainable.

[Chi65]

The reason why there are discussions on whaling is not because Japanese eat whales but because non Japan have a hard time with the fact that Japanese eat whales. This is because in some cultures whales are regarded as sacred animals. Where as in Japan they are not regarded in the same way as in many western countries.
That is why there are debates and that is why other countries want to make Japan stop hunting whales. They are putting their cultural preference on Japan who has a different cultural preference.

This maybe partly a bit sideways, but I never questioned the koreans eating dog meat or the chinese even cats amongst more that we hardly can imagine, and uh, what were those roasted beetles in Korea? They do eat them, and for me its their business.
I couldn't, but on a walkabout with Aborigines I probably would, including ants and whatever.
As for India, there also should be some shruggings about our beef etc., I think. And it is much more likely, that in a very good Sushi restaurant I even had some fish, that I never heard of, or maybe even whale? How can I know?
I ate everything, much to the amusement and joy of the hosts.

Thus, for me that above question from you is none for me at all.
Sacred for some or not. And I said it clearly, if they do it for own use, eatings. . .
If you read again. . .
And there I have certain doubts about the limits of what the ocean plus inhabitants therein can take, since I am well aware of the magnetism of moneymaking and what harm it has done to fishing in general. Thus (and basicaly from there) any fixation on just one goal may well be dangerous, we had enough of other examples in the oceans.

And it is still in my mind, that it may not be such a bad idea to try other means too for making a living or trying to eat, additionally maybe or whatnot. The sea, as only one example, offers so much, and in Japan anyhow is more on the table than only whale. And that is also just an idea, knowing very well, that japanese people in general are creative minds and may not be badly advised (or better friendly reminded) to consider this, since I can hardly imagine, that the thoughts were not on the table already...It cannot be new amongst themselves as well.

Saying this is far from anything else but putting myself into their shoes and trying to think, what would I do then. Thats usually what friends do all the time, and no side is a racist because of this.
This last argument is still ridiculous and very narrowminded for me, combined with misbehaviour and misunderstandings it leaves a strange paranoid picture.
But it is not necessary, if one can exchange simple facts, as usual in good discussions.

I also like pigs, by the way, and yet I eat (only) some of their meat at times, although in general rather little amounts of meat. But that has several reasons. We had so many horror stories about bad meat here, the ways, animals were kept, and we had Chernobyl etc.

So, if a certain balance, care and health can be kept, no real problem for me (yet), but if it runs the danger of getting "out of hand", so to say, any which way, then better not. . .
Its an "if"-question for me.

And thats all there is.

[Sarapva]

I think there are probably some cultural misunderstandings on this subject, too, which is very normal on an international forum. No one is saying that someone else can't have an opinion - we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese people who believe whaling should continue, as well as plenty who believe it shouldn't. And the same with Australians, Americans, etc. We should be able to discuss without attacking each other.

[kame]

I think there are probably some cultural misunderstandings on this subject, too, which is very normal on an international forum. No one is saying that someone else can't have an opinion - we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese people who believe whaling should continue, as well as plenty who believe it shouldn't. And the same with Australians, Americans, etc. We should be able to discuss without attacking each other.

You can have an opinion that whaling is wrong. But that opinion, if it's a denial of the habit of hunting and eating whales per se, rather than scientific concern on sustainability of perticular whale species, is perceived as culturally prejudiced by those of us who eat whales as part of our lives. So when you express such culturally biased opinion (which you are entitled to), you should expect some harsh reactions (which we are entitled to).

Discussions of political maneuvers is another thing, because what governments and some NPOs actually act on the opinions of some people and have actual consequences to people's lives, like whether or not we can eat certain whales, or people getting physically hurt. So whether or not these actions are based on culturally biased opinion of the constituents is a valid topic of discussion. Everyone is entitled to opinions even if they are prejudicial or racial. But governments and big NPOs acting on such opinions would be wrong.

[kame]

And whether or not Japan will continue to whale in the future or how the culture of eating whales change should be up to the Japanese people. No one likes to be told how their culture should change by foreingners. What's happening in the middle east is largely due to few countries trying to impose their values too hastily.

For example, most Japanese think the lack of gun control in the US which kills far more humans (including many Japanese) than whales is totally stupid yet you don't see their government demanding tighter gun control in the US. If they do, I am sure American people would be furious to be criticized of their rights to carry guns to shoot people.

[Chi65]

As far as I can see, we have to do with whales, that don't "belong" to Japan, as their owners, I mean. Thus it is not only a question for the Japanese and insofar changes the picture, that tries to make it a japanese matter only. Its simply not. Sorry to say.
Just as one aspect to add.
Insofar the gun-example does not really work.

[Sarapva]

You can have an opinion that whaling is wrong. But that opinion, if it's a denial of the habit of hunting and eating whales per se, rather than scientific concern on sustainability of perticular whale species, is perceived as culturally prejudiced by those of us who eat whales as part of our lives. So when you express such culturally biased opinion (which you are entitled to), you should expect some harsh reactions (which we are entitled to).

I think the key term here, kame, is perceived when talking about cultural bias. I have no idea of culture when I oppose whale hunting. And I've said before that I don't have a problem with cultures that hunt whales to survive, whether they're in the U.S. or Japan. It's the large-scale hunts that do harm.

You have helped to put some light on how the Japanese perceive people opposing their whale hunting, and this would explain the hostility of the Japanese toward westerners video-taping their hunts. But I do think there is a misunderstanding here. In no way do I want to disrespect a culture, and I don't think I am. Would you not react so harshly if it were clear that there was no disrespect intended? My reasons of opposing whale hunting are the same reasons that I oppose any killing for profit. I don't think we should use animals that way.

[kame]

I think the key term here, kame, is perceived when talking about cultural bias. I have no idea of culture when I oppose whale hunting. And I've said before that I don't have a problem with cultures that hunt whales to survive, whether they're in the U.S. or Japan. It's the large-scale hunts that do harm.

A cultural practice does not have to be essential for survival in order for it to be protected. Allowing civilians to own assault weapons is not essential for survival, nor eating beef or other animals. I agree that excessive whaling should be regulated (which is the purpose of IWC) but the scale of sustainable whaling should be based on scientific grounds. There is no justification for limiting whaling to "traditional" scale if more can be hunted sustainably.


You have helped to put some light on how the Japanese perceive people opposing their whale hunting, and this would explain the hostility of the Japanese toward westerners video-taping their hunts. But I do think there is a misunderstanding here. In no way do I want to disrespect a culture, and I don't think I am. Would you not react so harshly if it were clear that there was no disrespect intended? My reasons of opposing whale hunting are the same reasons that I oppose any killing for profit. I don't think we should use animals that way.

I know you don't intend to, but that is not the important point because prejudice is not defined by how the offender feels. I have observed prejudice in both Japan and in US and in most cases the offenders have no clue why they are perceived prejudicial.

If you "oppose any killing for profit" and consistently stick to that value, that's an opinion that I can respect. But then, you argued that whaling is inhumane but you support "traditional whaling" which is as inhumane as any other whaling practice. If you oppose killing for profit, then you should stick to that reason and people would perceive that you are just one of those vegetarians that are opposed to all carnivours and not specifically targeting whale-eaters.

That would also make you opposed to most of the non-vegetarian world including your own country, and any argument based on such naive idealism is bound to go nowhere. People kill animals not only for food but also for medical research that has saved countless human lives. Does that make you opposed to drug companies and medical school researchers?

[kame]

And realistically, as I mentioned multiple times before, whale-eating is a very minor part of Japanese diet today. Many people speculate that if anything, less whales would be hunted if whaling is commercialized but government subsidy is lifted. There just isn't a market for 10,000 whales to be hunted for consumption in Japan, thanks to cheap imported beef. Most Japanese would agree that whale consumption will decline rather than increase in the long run.

Irrational pressure only serves to ignite the instinct to protect national interest and cultural defense mechanism.

Some people suspect that the environmental organizations love that Japan keep hunting whales, because anti-whaling campaign rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars. Clearly there are more urgent environmental issues than few thousand whales hunted each year like global warming. People talk global warming but don't act on it and pay generously to fight it. Opposing whaling doesn't hurt those people nor make them give up their SUVs yet they can feel good about themselves.

[Sarapva]

If you "oppose any killing for profit" and consistently stick to that value, that's an opinion that I can respect. But then, you argued that whaling is inhumane but you support "traditional whaling" which is as inhumane as any other whaling practice. If you oppose killing for profit, then you should stick to that reason and people would perceive that you are just one of those vegetarians that are opposed to all carnivours and not specifically targeting whale-eaters.

Does that make you opposed to drug companies and medical school researchers?

I agree that any kind of whale hunting is inhumane unless it can be done quickly and painlessly for the whale. I can accept "traditional" whaling because small villages are not hunting whales to sell to make a profit, and therefore are like any person or group of people who are hunting for the purpose of eating the meat themselves. When money comes into it (selling the meat like in the meat industry), other considerations like killing humanely get pushed to the side in the rush to sell as much meat as possible.

I'm certainly not "targeting" whale hunters - I'm just stating my beliefs on this forum, as it is a whaling forum. Maybe it is naive to be against any kind of selling animals for profit, but I really believe that to be wrong on a fundamental level. How much of this is cultural I don't know, and I do apologize if anyone perceives it to be an insult to their culture.

I'm not opposed to drug companies or medical researchers, but I do oppose testing or experimenting on animals. Animals can't volunteer to be experimented on like humans can (like for certain drugs). I know this is another area where I could be called naive, and maybe I am - but this is just what I feel to be true.