Japan's closed society vs economic troubles

[lightbeam]

Japan has been a closed society for long despite its huge outward economic expansion with the world. This closedness is backfiring against itself. Naturally, Japan has suffered terribly in the past two decades. This reality is not going to change any time soon. This reality is sharply studied by a new book, China's Global Reach - markets, multinationals, and globalization by George Zhibin Gu. Very interesting read. One additional interesting book on Japan is Japan - Who Governs by Chalmers Johnson. Both books shed much light to this Japanese issue.

[yukio_michael]

I'd like to know if anyone else has any information concerning this. From a brief perspective, countries like South Korea seem to be inviting foreign investors in order to facilitate growth.

Looking back at an issue of Mangajin magazine, number 24, published in 1993, there is a definite idea of international commerce relations taking place between foreigners and Japan. Even though this is a post-bubble period for Japan, Japan still practiced a form of commerce that sought rather to cover up the problem than to solve it.

I don't see the Japanese economy improving without distinct pressure from the outside. People in power who are privy to the bennefits that power bestows them rarely ever change soley for the sake of personal concious.

I don't know enough about the truth behind the idea that Japan is in fact "closed" as far as business matters go, but it's certainly not similar to it's state during the nineties.

Japan is very much a "closed" country, culturally, and that I think needs to relax a bit to foster regional growth and rebuilding of the economy. Then again, they can just keep increasing the consumption tax until the wretched lower class die out.

[Maciamo]

I'd like to know if anyone else has any information concerning this. From a brief perspective, countries like South Korea seem to be inviting foreign investors in order to facilitate growth.

I am not sure about South Korea (I wish Lexico could tell us more about this), but China certainly is more foreigner friendly than Japan. Chinese people even go as far as to adopt a "Western name" (well, an English one at least) that they use when dealing with Westerners (and Japanese).

I don't know enough about the truth behind the idea that Japan is in fact "closed" as far as business matters go, but it's certainly not similar to it's state during the nineties.

Japan is very much a "closed" country, culturally, and that I think needs to relax a bit to foster regional growth and rebuilding of the economy. Then again, they can just keep increasing the consumption tax until the wretched lower class die out.

I agree with that. Business is always easier to "open" than the culture. However, I am pretty sure that the lack of cultural awareness (toward other counries) of the Japanese does cause them problems. If I was dealing with Japanese business people and they asked me how are things "in America" or introduced me to their colleagues as American, the deal would be over soon. :blush: I suppose the opposite is true as well (how would a Japanese businessman react if he was always referred to as "Chinese" ?). But I have never heard of Western business people being dumb enough to refer to Japanese business relations as Chinese.:blush:

[JerseyBoy]

I think Japan is very selective what to take in and what not to bring in. As more foreign or multinational companies do business in Japan, the rest of Japan will become more open to other cultures and people, I believe. There are many Japanese who have experience living and working in different countries or cultures as the global market place expands. But there are always some part of the population who prefer the status quo and abhor changes in any country.

[Maciamo]

As more foreign or multinational companies do business in Japan, the rest of Japan will become more open to other cultures and people, I believe.

Could you develop a bit more on this. I don't see how having more foreign companies in Japan would change anything. Japanese people are already very familiar with foreign products and brands (food, cars, clothes...), except the areas protected by the government (electronics, manga...). The problem is that some Japanese don't even know that McDonald is American, BMW is German, Burberry is British and Chanel is French (well these examples are a bit extreme, but you get the picture).

Some of the most shocking stereotypes about Western countries I have heard in Japan came from people working for American or European companies.

There are many Japanese who have experience living and working in different countries or cultures as the global market place expands. But there are always some part of the population who prefer the status quo and abhor changes in any country.

It seems to me that a substantial percentage of the Japanese in their 20's and 30's have experienced living abroad. I would say that the proportion is at least comparable to Europe, which means higher than in North America or Australia.

[cyberryo]

Hi Maciamo, I do agree with JerseyBoy that as more and more foreign corporations do business within Japan, there will be more and more Japanese people open to foreigners. This is mainly because there would be more Japanese people who would have learnt how to associate with foreigners on foreigners` terms in a foreign international business environment, maybe even having to speak foreign languages in the office.

Granted these would only comprise a minority group, maybe even the elite minority among Japanese executives, and hence the spin-offs may not be substantial enough.

My own assessment is that the Japanese society has become more open over the past 10 years since 1986. Well, maybe, not as open as we would like....

I truely feel that if Japanese people cannot learn foreign languages proficiently when young, they may be one-track in their assessment of the foreign environment, having to depend on the "teachings" or books of their Japanese seniors or elders before them, seeing the outside through the same tinted glasses. When they enter the corporations as "salaryman", they are again molded according to the corporations` expectations for the good of the company. The ladies may know about Hermes, Gucci, BMW, etc. but these are goods again highly praised and publicised by leading Japanese fashion writers, etc. In other words, they are "taught" and "conditioned" by virtue of dependence on Japanese language. Language and culture goes hand in hand.

Most of the Japanese I know who are more international in their outlook tend to have good command of foreign languages when they were young and showed a strong interest in back-packing, independent, or has worked in established foreign companies such as Nokia, Motorola, etc. They have acquired the knowldge and economic confidence to be different among their peers while still maintaining the wa. This is not easy to achieve for the ordinary housewives or "salaryman" strugging to meet the monthly targets set by his elder supervisors.

Operating or living within the normal Japanese "language" and cultural environment, within their own comfort zone, would keep them looking inwards and conform to the group norms so long as the Japan system keeps running peacefully.

I am not saying that this is a bad state as it is precisely these traits which make them cohesive in their collective drive for economic success under the right leadership against external difficulties.

Yes, it is true that more and more Chinese people are adopting English names. The Chinese are scrambling onto the economic growth wagon, and getting an English name means that they are regarded progressive in outlook among their peers. No Chinese in their right frame of mind would adopt Western names during the Cultural Revolution.

Comparatively, an ordinary Japanese may face ridicule from his peers if he were to adopt a western name, as he already has a Japan name. On the other hand, it is accepted practice for Japanese sales staff handling foreign customers to have Western names. Of course, Japanese entertainers, singers also adopt western names or katakana names to stand out.

Ken

[JerseyBoy]

Could you develop a bit more on this. I don't see how having more foreign companies in Japan would change anything. Japanese people are already very familiar with foreign products and brands (food, cars, clothes...), except the areas protected by the government (electronics, manga...). The problem is that some Japanese don't even know that McDonald is American, BMW is German, Burberry is British and Chanel is French (well these examples are a bit extreme, but you get the picture).

I think any change in culture (especially for culture whose history goes back for centuries) may take a generation or two. I believe those companies you listed (MacDonald and all) have started in Japan by adjusting their business strategies specific to Japan to be like a Japanese company with internationally recognizable brands. They have been very successful in doing so if indeed many Japanese nowadays consider those companies originate in Japan.

Decades ago, many Western countries considered Japan a difficult market to get into because of governmental regulations, business norms, cultural issues, and other intangibles. I bet for some it still is. Even though speed and degree of change is subject to discussions and individual interpretations, I saw some changes in Japan little by little in terms of how Japanese people see themselves in the world and how they think they are being perceived by people outside of Japan. I think this change will contribute to more openness to things new or foreign.


Some of the most shocking stereotypes about Western countries I have heard in Japan came from people working for American or European companies.

I believe this depends on how each company manages its employees and how its work environment and work culture are presented to and accepted by workers. It's possible Japanese employees who are working those foreign companies are only reporting to locally hired manager/director/VP (i.e. Japanese) instead of dealing directly with coworkers located in outside Japan.

It is also possible the people in the example you raised in your comment above are not open minded nor have a desire to learn new cultures and concepts. Simply because someone is working at the foreign company that does not mean he or she is aware of or willing to learn new cultures or thinking. It is getting difficult to distinguish which one is the foreign company because oftentimes those foreign companies are doing business in Japan like any domestic Japanese company and because those foreign companies are often managed by local Japanese managers.


It seems to me that a substantial percentage of the Japanese in their 20's and 30's have experienced living abroad. I would say that the proportion is at least comparable to Europe, which means higher than in North America or Australia.

This is the important part of the cultural changes in Japan which is yet to happen. As these 20's and 30's people enter into the workplace/academic fields and go up the corporate ladder to be managers, directors, executives, and other positions of power and authority, there would be more noticeable changes in Japanese mindset and cultures. They are more exposed to and have experiences traveling, studying, and/or living outside Japan than their previous generations. For cultures to change, it has to be bottom up, not top down, especially in a democratic society.

As far as China is concerned, its government is able to set the guidelines, rules, or orders top down because it is not yet a democratic society. So, they may be able to nudge their huge populace toward changes while controlling how fast and how much changes they are going to allow. Adopting Western names to be more presentable to Westerners/Americans seems a barometer of how global you are; but, I think it is very shallow. Changing names or coming up nicknames are the easy part; the meat is how they act, behave, operate, think, and interact with people outside of their cultural bounds. I have many Chinese colleagues in my company's offices in China and I also noticed they use the Western first names. Some of the names they came up with are very interesting as I am sure they came up with those names by watching movies and TV shows. I rather focus on how they conduct business and communicate because, if they (with Western nick names) cannot communicate in English properly, their adopting Western names is just a decoration on their business card or signature on their e-mail messages. Also, this name adoption phenomenon is pushed on them because many Western partners or customers were not at ease with dealing foreign cultures such as China, India, and others. It's like when you call up a tech support for a laptop and if the other end of the line says "Hello, thank you for calling XXXXX tech support center. My name is Josh (enter any typical Western sounding names here). How may I help you," you feel right at home if you are N American or European. But, if you hear "......., My name is Mahesh (or, enter any ethnic sounding names here).........," some Western customers will start interact with him/her in their own pre-conceived mindset (or bias, stereotype) simply because he/she sounds foreign (which is correct as he/she is a foreigner in the eye of this Western caller).

[Maciamo]

Hi Maciamo, I do agree with JerseyBoy that as more and more foreign corporations do business within Japan, there will be more and more Japanese people open to foreigners. This is mainly because there would be more Japanese people who would have learnt how to associate with foreigners on foreigners` terms in a foreign international business environment, maybe even having to speak foreign languages in the office.

So you mean more foreigners in Japan, not more foreign companies. To give you an idea of why it is very different, IBM has about 20,000 employees in Japan, only a few hundreds of whom are not Japanese.

Most of my ex-students worked for or with foreign companies (which is why they were studying English). I know from them that generally, most smaller foreign companies in Japan (e.g. fashion, pharmaceuticals...) have very few and often no foreign staff in Japan itself.

What's more, let me remind you that 5% of the population of Tokyo is foreign, which gives ample chances to many Japanese to meet foreigners (most of them are Asian, I admit, but Westerners are at least as common as Asian people in a city like Brussels or Paris).

As for culture and language going hand in hand, it is true to an extent, but I knew much more about Japan before even being able to make a sentence in Japanese than most Japanese fleunt in English know about the West. In fact, I noticed that even Japanese fluent in English have strong misconceptions about the West.

[Maciamo]

I think any change in culture (especially for culture whose history goes back for centuries) may take a generation or two.

It's already 3 or 4 generations since the US occupation of Japan after WWII. What's more Japan Westernized itself in the late 19th century (about 6 or 7 generations ago), while Western countries did not Easternize. Yet, it is obvious to me that people here in Belgium know much more and have much less misconceptions about Japan than the reverse.

This also makes Japan's culture one of the "youngest" on earth, as it only dates from Meiji. The traditional culture before Meiji was so different that they are almost two separate cultures. Then it changed further after WWII. To me, pre-Meiji Japanese culture and post-WWII Japanese culture are as different as medieval and modern European cultures. E.g. to a modern Japanese, committing seppuku or kow-towing to the ground in front of someone in a position of power is as foreign a culture as it is to a Westerner.

[kkkktttt]

It's already 3 or 4 generations since the US occupation of Japan after WWII. What's more Japan Westernized itself in the late 19th century (about 6 or 7 generations ago), while Western countries did not Easternize. Yet, it is obvious to me that people here in Belgium know much more and have much less misconceptions about Japan than the reverse.

例えばフランスやイギリスといった欧州の大国と日本と の相互認識の差を比べてみた場合どうですか？

[kkkktttt]

except the areas protected by the government (electronics, manga...).
漫画が政府に保護されている？情報源を教えてください 。
漫画は「青少年の健全な育成に悪影響を与える」として 、しばしば非難の的になってきました。
政府による保護政策なんて皆無に等しい。

海外における違法コピー品の広まりにより、日本のアニメや漫画業界は甚大な損 害を被ってきました。インターネットの普及で事態がさらに悪化している事はご承知の 通りだと思います。
ところが、日本政府はこれらの問題に対して何ら実効的 な対応をとろうとはしてきませんでした。
政府が漫画などいわゆる「オタク文化」の保護育成に乗 り出したのは、その経済性や、いわゆる「ソフトパワー」論が注目されだしたここ2･3年の事です。

日本は大衆文化に関しては極めて開放的な国の一つです 。少なくとも、フランスなどに見られるような外国コン テンツの割当規制は日本にはありません。
この点ではむしろ文化保護政策が遅れているとして政府 に対する非難の声が上がっているほどです。

エレクトロニクス産業については、その範囲は大変広く 一概にはいえませんが、他国と比較してとりわけ日本が 手厚い保護政策をとっているとは思えません。この点も 情報源を教えてください。（日本はエレクトロニクス大 国であり保護する必要性がそもそも薄い。）

東京の家電量販店などに行くと、日本製のエレクトロニ クス製品をおみやげとして物色している外国人観光客を よく見かけますが、逆に海外に旅行する日本人観光客が おみやげ品としてエレクトロニクス製品を購入すること はほとんどないでしょう。（一部マニア的な商品を除く 。）
この差はなぜだと思いますか？


The problem is that some Japanese don't even know that McDonald is American, BMW is German, Burberry is British and Chanel is French (well these examples are a bit extreme, but you get the picture).
:blush:

[JerseyBoy]

It's already 3 or 4 generations since the US occupation of Japan after WWII. What's more Japan Westernized itself in the late 19th century (about 6 or 7 generations ago), while Western countries did not Easternize.

I think current cultural changes in Japan (and other Asian countries for that matter), howerver small at this time, have become more pronounced during the 90's as more information become available on internet. Also, technological advancements also help different parts of the world communicate more easily and global economy has also been connecting different parts of the world together. The generations you mentioned did not have cell phone, satellite TV, internet, home PC/Mac as they were growing up. But, the current generations (in their 20's and 30's) do and are more exposed to outside world through those new technologies and global economy.

If you look at the current rapid progress in China, India and other Asian countries, their current spurt of developments correspond with the technological advancements in the 90's and the current decade (outsourcing, setting up global supply chain, global collaboration for various projects companies are doing).

It would be difficult for bottom-up cultural changes to materialize in a vacuum. I think Japan's 20's and 30's generations will be different from the previous generations and changes are on their way.

[Maciamo]

It would be difficult for bottom-up cultural changes to materialize in a vacuum. I think Japan's 20's and 30's generations will be different from the previous generations and changes are on their way.

Let's hope so. But so far, Japanese on their 20's and 30's, with all the technology at their disposal, have not made a good use of it*. Or maybe the problem is what information is available in Japanese on the Net or in the Media...


* Many of the misconceptions and myths I said that the Japanese had about the West were for people in their 20's and 30's learning English, having experience in meeting foreigners and who had travelled outside Japan - basically the kind of people I met the most. But I admit that it is even worse for people older than that. I am glad I didn't have to associate with them too often, otherwise I imagine that could have written a whole book on the stupidities I'd have heard (judging from the samples, like my grandma in law, who'd think that the pieces of Beethoven or other European classical music she hears on TV are modern Japanese music !).

[pipokun]

-offtopic-
It was also my long-lasting mystery, Chinese and the Western nicknames.
I happened to ask a Chinese colleague in the PRC about it a while ago, her answer was simple that she got her Western nickname when she was a student. And she does not take it seriously like some J-pop bands/singers use Katakana words. Nothing more, nothing less.

[JerseyBoy]

Let's hope so. But so far, Japanese on their 20's and 30's, with all the technology at their disposal, have not made a good use of it*.

* Many of the misconceptions and myths I said that the Japanese had about the West were for people in their 20's and 30's learning English, having experience in meeting foreigners and who had travelled outside Japan - basically the kind of people I met the most.

I hope your encounters with not-so-enlightened or somewhat knowledge deficient Japanese are not so wide-spread in Japan (I am hoping it is a mother-of-all coincidence that you have come across with those Japanese).

It is my impression that there are so many Japanese students who are learning English without any other goal other than learning the language itself. Maybe it is more about speaking and conversing in English, rather than learning the language. Your comment on Japanese contents on the internet is interesting. If a person is reading and getting info written only in his native language, he/she is getting information which may be more leaned toward the perspectives/opinions shared by him (as it is likely that information is provided by his fellow countryman). But, other international languages (such as English) may open up the whole new ideas and perspectives for that person.

Going back to your comment on Japanese young people (20's and 30's) you met who lacked basic knowledge on the outside world, I think those people are learning English as an end in itself and are not using it as a tool to gain more knowledge and expand understanding with other people from different cultures. Without seeking, understanding, and synthesizing information, they won't expand their knowledge. So, it is very possible you-cannot-not-to-know-about-it moments may come up with those people who are learning English, have travelled overseas, and have some personal encounter with people from other countries.

In general, it is my impression that Japanese tourists typically travel in a group. Even the young Japanese tend to travel with their fellow friends (I saw them in NYC whenever I was in the city for business). There is nothing wrong with that. But, if they are with their own group of people for travel, they may be limiting their exposure to the countries they are visiting. It's possible you can visit Paris and only eat Japanese noodle or sushi with your friends at a Japanese restaurant and do not even experience the local cultures. So, even though traveling overseas will help people understand there are different cultures and people out there, short traveling itself may not guarantee they will see and enjoy different countries and cultures.

In all fairness to them, I have also come across with many people in USA who have no clue about other countries and cultures. Some of my college friends thought Japan and China are the same country and they even say they speak American (instead of English). So, this deficit in knowledge is not unique to Japanese as it seems it is shared by other countries as well.

[Maciamo]

I hope your encounters with not-so-enlightened or somewhat knowledge deficient Japanese are not so wide-spread in Japan (I am hoping it is a mother-of-all coincidence that you have come across with those Japanese).

I hoped so for a while, then I gave up when I saw the trend every 10 or 50 new people I met. :(

In general, it is my impression that Japanese tourists typically travel in a group. Even the young Japanese tend to travel with their fellow friends (I saw them in NYC whenever I was in the city for business).

If a group is from 2 people, then yes, but otherwise, the big organised tours with a guide and coach/bus (and everyone wearing the same cap and following the flag :D) are usually for older people. I have met many young Japanese travelling by themselves, or in pair. But it's true that even exchange students tend to stick together in Japanese communities.

There is nothing wrong with that. But, if they are with their own group of people for travel, they may be limiting their exposure to the countries they are visiting. It's possible you can visit Paris and only eat Japanese noodle or sushi with your friends at a Japanese restaurant and do not even experience the local cultures. So, even though traveling overseas will help people understand there are different cultures and people out there, short traveling itself may not guarantee they will see and enjoy different countries and cultures.

I agree, eventhough food-wise they are generally fairly open and want to try the local specialities (esp. if they were shown on TV :blush: ). But culture-wise (history, arts, laws, way of thinking, traditions...), I totally agree that Japanese tourist are not famous for getting to know the country they visit beyond the buildings and museums. This is well reflected in the way the most popular Japanese guidebooks are made (e.g. chikyuu no arukikata、rurubu wa-rudo toraberu gaido...). They concentrate on food, hotels and sights, and have virtually nothing about the country's history, traditions, religion, economy, politics, sports, environment, etc. like all good Western guidebooks (e.g. Lonely Planet, Rough Guide, Let's Go, Blue Guide, Fodor's, Frommers, Routard...), where maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the book is about the country itself and not the touristic attractions. It's symptomatic of Japanese society itself. One of the reasons is that the education system does not give them the desire and curiosity to learn.

In all fairness to them, I have also come across with many people in USA who have no clue about other countries and cultures. Some of my college friends thought Japan and China are the same country and they even say they speak American (instead of English). So, this deficit in knowledge is not unique to Japanese as it seems it is shared by other countries as well.

Yes, I know that the USA has a bad reputation for that. But at least it's common knowledge (in Europe at least), while many Westerners have the image of the studious and well-learned Japanese, which is probably the most aberrant stereotype about Japan ever. Maybe the fact that I come from a small country where you can be abroad by driving less than 1 hour in any direction has helped the people to be more open and knowledgeable about cultural differences, system differeces (unrelated to culture, such as speed limit, legality of some products...), and where do products come from. It's seems fairly obvious to a Belgian that not everything in the world is made in Belgium (so that people actually wonder which country produces what), but it may be less obvious to an American or a Japanese.

I suppose that this is why a Belgian would never think to ask whether "they have chocolate in Japan" or something in that line.

[pipokun]

I bet we can find more practical solutions for your frustration when you show off Belgian ways to ease the tension between the North and the South in your country. I believe that is much more deeply-rooted than Tokyo-Osaka.

And one more, I said I respected your interest in the culture, but I cannot find anything what you actually did in Japan in terms of the culture.
I don't deny reading English books about Japanese history and culture is one of the best ways, though...