Unpopular personal characteristics in Japan

[godppgo]

Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.


1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill


Now when compared to my culture, I agree on number 2,3,4,5,6. How does the list compared to your culture or country's list of most hated personalities? Do you find the list to be an accurate reflection on present day Japanese society?

[MeAndroo]

Wow, what if someone were all of them.

This list combines classic negative attributes (lying, excessive complaining, abuse of alcohol) with some that helped build the civilized world. Opportunists, dreamers, debators...these people push science, medicine, political change, industry. I guess I just don't see why those characteristics would be hated.

In America, there's bound to be people who hate each of them, and people who openly endorse each one. I personally dislike 5 and 6. I've been screwed by property owners before, but I've also had good ones who perform their duties well. Complaining is a personal pet peeve since I tend to be somewhat of a cynical optimist, if that makes sense.

People with good social skills...there needs to be more of those.

[nice gaijin]

I'm not sure if you can really characterize all Japanese by saying that they hate specific types of personalities, but a running theme in all those things listed is that they could be described as tertiary producers, or not productive at all. In feudal Japan, the caste system went Samurai, Peasants, Artisans, then Merchants. The order of the latter three is interesting, as the peasants were the primary producers (farmers etc) who were the least expendable (everyone needs what they produce), the artisans built stuff and were important but not as essential, and the merchants just sold stuff; they typically made a good amount of money and did the least production, and in essence were less necessary to society than the others. Most of the characteristics you listed would fall under this latter category.

[nurizeko]

Apparently making a passing statement in japan like; "oh, i dont like this after having tried it" is tantamount to insulting their family honour or something.

[MeAndroo]

Apparently making a passing statement in japan like; "oh, i dont like this after having tried it" is tantamount to insulting their family honour or something.

Did this happen to you? I'm curious to know if you're referring to food or something, because I used to tell my host family I didn't like stuff all the time and they just thought it was funny. And this was long after the novelty of me being a gaijin seemed to have worn off.

[Kinsao]

I don't see why someone would hate an opportunist :? unless people are jealous because they feel like they had a lucky break, maybe...?

Drunk... haha... that's ironic... everyone dislikes other people's drunk behaviour, but who hasn't done it some time?

Dreamer: I can see the way of thinking, negative aspects, someone who is a dreamer and never actually does anything.

The same with debator; of course it has good and bad things about it, someone who questions and uses their brain, but also it can mean someone who is likely to argue just for the sake of it and stir things up.

I don't think anyone likes complainers or liars.

Ah... number 7... I know what you mean... like recruitment consultants? (No offence meant to any recruitment consultants on here! If you want to fight me, take it outside!)

Yes, and rent collectors too are never the most popular people!

I honestly don't see why someone with good social skill would be disliked... :clueless: -- unless it's jealousy.

In the UK I think that the most disliked are 5, 6, 7 and 8.

[Flashjeff]

I don't get it. Why would anyone hate a person with good social skills? I'd think that particular trait would be admired instead.

As for dreamers, without them, man wouldn't have split the atom, flown to the moon, created wonders in the fields of art and music, developed medicines to combat diseases, or invented the technological marvels that have helped make our lives better. That also makes no sense to me.

:clueless:

[suirai]

Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.
1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill
Now when compared to my culture, I agree on number 2,3,4,5,6. How does the list compared to your culture or country's list of most hated personalities? Do you find the list to be an accurate reflection on present day Japanese society?

Could we please know the book from which this came? I don't know about any of my fellow forumites/forumers, but I'd sure like to know the author of that which you've quoted here. Thank you.


.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Could we please know the book from which this came? I don't know about any of my fellow forumites/forumers, but I'd sure like to know the author of that which you've quoted here. Thank you.
.
I'd also like to know the original Japanese for #9.

[godppgo]

Could we please know the book from which this came? I don't know about any of my fellow forumites/forumers, but I'd sure like to know the author of that which you've quoted here. Thank you.
.

The book title is called 日本人の行動様式 by 荒木博之. Here's a link to the Kinokuniya online store if anyone's interested in finding out more:

http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/wshosea.cgi?W-NIPS=9840118471

I am not sure if there is an English translated version but the book was first published in 1992 so there might exist one. I am about 1/3 through the book and there are some really interesting observations about Japanese. Some I find too theoretical to be practically applied to the Japanese general public.

[godppgo]

I don't get it. Why would anyone hate a person with good social skills? I'd think that particular trait would be admired instead.


I think the reason for that is because someone who has good social skills are generally talkative and not afraid of showing themselves which is in the opposite of traditional asian value that showing individuality is a bad thing to do. Conforming to group is most important and showing individuality is a act of placing yourself ahead of the group. This thinking might sound ridiculous in today's world but I did notice asians in my class (including myself) back in high school and university tend to be more quiet and ask far less questions to teachers than others.

[godppgo]

I'd also like to know the original Japanese for #9.

I read the Chinese translated version of the book. The Chinese description for #9 is 高級的社交手挽. I think 高級 in Japanese Kanji means high class or superb. 社交 means socializing. However, I don't know the appropriate Japanese word for 手挽 which means technique (more for soft skills not hard skills). Maybe someone on this forum can provide a translation for it.

[godppgo]

Apparently making a passing statement in japan like; "oh, i dont like this after having tried it" is tantamount to insulting their family honour or something.

Yeah you are suppose to suppress your anger or dislike under any circumstances. The priority in this kind of situation is to maintain a peaceful harmony (hence the name 大和民族 which the Japanese called themselves) rather than expressing your "real" opinion.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

The book title is called 日本人の行動様式 by 荒木博之. Here's a link to the Kinokuniya online store if anyone's interested in finding out more:
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/wshosea.cgi?W-NIPS=9840118471
I am not sure if there is an English translated version but the book was first published in 1992 so there might exist one. I am about 1/3 through the book and there are some really interesting observations about Japanese. Some I find too theoretical to be practically applied to the Japanese general public.

This book was published in 1979.
In Japan, it is an end of high growth.


http://books.yahoo.co.jp/book_detail/00724933

[Elizabeth]

Yeah you are suppose to suppress your anger or dislike under any circumstances. The priority in this kind of situation is to maintain a peaceful harmony (hence the name 大和民族 which the Japanese called themselves) rather than expressing your "real" opinion.I wouldn't say under any circumstance...but anyway, in the absense of any context this list is almost too random and self-serving to deserve further comment. Opportunism, dreaming, debating complaining and lying I personally would associate more strongly with the Chinese temperment, maybe that is what the author was also tacitly implying. :relief:

[Dekamaster]

Geez. The book's old (that's my age already). Probably the content would be pretty much outdated too.

[godppgo]

Opportunism, dreaming, debating complaining and lying I personally would associate more strongly with the Chinese temperment, maybe that is what the author was also tacitly implying. :relief:

This could be a valid guess as most Japanese's life philosophy came from the Chinese. The biggest difference between Japanese and Chinese is that Japanese are willing to accept changes while the Chinese are living in the past. I think the main reason those disliked personalities are pointed out by the author is to remined the Japanese how out-dated their traditional thinkings are in today's world. Just another example of Japanese's self-judging nature.

[Ma Cherie]

I think you're right about how some Asians don't speak up in class. I see that alot in my courses. We can be having a very deep discussion on an issue and I would never hear one of the Asian students speak up.

I think I'm going to have to question those qualities that the average Japanese person tends to dislike. I mean, number two in particular. Aren't some japanese salarymen supposed to go to a bar with calleagues and get drunk to take the stress off from working a whole bunch of hours a week? :clueless:

[kirei_na_me]

Drunk?!

That's pretty funny considering the fact that almost all the Japanese people I know drink pretty heavily.

From my experience, I'd say the most hated is the debater. All the Japanese people I know despise arguing about something. They just can't take it. Complainer is way on up there too.

[Flashjeff]

I think the reason for that is because someone who has good social skills are generally talkative and not afraid of showing themselves which is in the opposite of traditional asian value that showing individuality is a bad thing to do. Conforming to group is most important and showing individuality is a act of placing yourself ahead of the group. This thinking might sound ridiculous in today's world but I did notice asians in my class (including myself) back in high school and university tend to be more quiet and ask far less questions to teachers than others.

Well, that's really fascinating, but I think it's also something of a generalization. I like to think I have good social skills, but I'm not all that chatty. You don't have to be talkative to be sociable. While conforming seems to be important, it does take away from one's own sense of uniqueness and individuality, turning one into a lemming. But, given that book is over 25 years old, perhaps things have been updated since then.

[Hideki_Matsui_Beast]

Yikes! I'm all of those except number eight, I think. :)

Maybe that's why the only Japanese person I know in real life doesn't like me. :p

[epigene]

This book was published in 1979.
In Japan, it is an end of high growth.
http://books.yahoo.co.jp/book_detail/00724933
As Nagashima-san points out, I think it is outdated. Japan underwent an economic boom and collapse after that and the rise of young and talented business entrepreneurs represented by Masayoshi Son of SoftBank on one end and Horie-mon (of Livedoor) on the other (despite his failure). Japanese outlook toward society has changed a lot. Even Prime Minister Koizumi has shown support to non-traditionalists.

1. Opportunist: I think this is received positively as people who take on risks to succeed.
2. Drunk: Accepted because so many like being drunk. Personally, I think there is no cure for Japanese love to get drunk to relieve stress... Even women do now! :blush:
3. Dreamer: Acceptable now for reason stated in (1)
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot): There are a lot of debators on TV now. They're not exactly welcome but have won recognition.
5. Complainer: People no longer are hesitant to complain.
6. Liar: I don't think anybody likes liars.
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent): The fact that there are still people who support Horiemon I think suggests people who make money in brokerage are being accepted as professionals. (There are those, especially the young, who think he was just unlucky for not being skillful enough to evade laws.)
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living): Everyone wants to be one. :hihi:
9. Person with good social skill: I think it depends on what you define as "good." People with truly good social skills are well liked, I think.

[yukio_michael]

Apparently making a passing statement in japan like; "oh, i dont like this after having tried it" is tantamount to insulting their family honour or something.I've just found, more closely from living with a Japanese girl, that individual likes and dislikes are much less encouraged than say--- just going with the flow and eating natto or cabbage or whatever, despite the fact that you just don't like it.

Other people may not care, but your significant other has a special interest in nagging you into the person whom they'd like you to be. Just my observations.... ;)

...As for drunks, I can't imagine Japan without a healthy population of plastered train passengers just trying to get themselves home.

[misa.j]

...As for drunks, I can't imagine Japan without a healthy population of plastered train passengers just trying to get themselves home.
Neither can I. You see at least 3 or 4 of them in each car after 9 oclock. It would be funny if they made one car for only drunks like how they did for women.:blush:

[Elizabeth]

5. Complainer: People no longer are hesitant to complain.
By no longer, I suppose is meant to pertain mostly to young people -- although there may be fewer Japanese every year that can accept pain and hardship gracefully without whining or griping and expecting to have everything go their way, there are still enough in my experience to make a significant cultural impact. My own preferences, though, also fall into a pattern of less personal freedom and a more hikame and majime society so I wouldn't like to see any of the qualities entirely reversed. :blush:

[Maciamo]

Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.
1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill
I strongly disagree with some of this list. From my experience in Japanese society, being drunk or lying is not only well accepted, but even encouraged. Never seen so many drunkards as in Tokyo (esp. on Friday night). Lying is a way of life in Japan, as people just cannot say what they truly think or feel. It's the most hypocritical society I've come to know.

I just don't understand number 9. Why would a person with good social skill be "hated" ? This is all the stranger that Japanese people put a lot of importance on socialisation.

However, I can understand that opportunist (esp. young ones) are disregarded by many Japanese, especially by the older generation (e.g. Horiemon of Live Door). Dreamers are also criticised (typically by the adjective "amai", which literally means "sweet", but translates as "naive" or "dreamer").

If Japanese don't like complainers, then they should do something about their women, especially old grandmas that complain almsot 24h a day. :okashii:

Never heard that property owners or 仲介業者 had a bad reputation. Sports coaches tend to be pretty popular if we look at football or baseball. The foreign coach of the Japanese football team is often greeted at the airport by loads of fans and journalists...

4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot): There are a lot of debators on TV now. They're not exactly welcome but have won recognition.

Really ? Then we don't have the same definition of "debate".:okashii:

[godppgo]

I think my translation of those traits to English is not very clear, I apologize for the bad translation..... especially number 9, I really can't find a suitable English word for it. I'll try to explain it.

A person with good social skill is usually a person who stands out in a group or a person who is not afraid of showing himself or herself. This kind of behavior is not encouraged in most asian cultures where conforming to group is what one should do instead of showing individuality. This is especially true for Japanese. This might be hard for westerners to understand because individualism is encouraged in most western cultures.

Myself for example, when I first came to Canada, I was appalled by some of the behaviors of canadian students in class. The most amazing behavior I observed during that time was that student actually ask question in class, not just one, but tons of questions. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to raise your hand in an asian class (true for Japanese too) and expose yourself to the whole class. Students also leave class without teacher's consent. The act of standing up and walking out of the class is seem as not conforming to group. During that few seconds of you walking out of class, the attention of the group has shifted to you, the individual, while the rest of students are still functioning as a group.

I hope this gives a better explanation to number 9. I'll try to explain the rest better if I can't really find proper translation for them.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

May a send you a broad smile?

The Japanese soldiers who took care of us war prisoners were almost always drunk, or on their way to be drunk.
They were always telling us big lies, especially about winning the war.

But then of course those prison camp guards were not the highest level of the Japanese people.

I am certain about one thing; the Japanese people believe in what they want to believe even in just lies.

[pipokun]

I just skimmed through the book yesterday.
I suppose the controversial no.9 here, may be "Yarite". I guess "clever" has close meanings as yarite, for both don't always have positive meanings.

Anyways, happy yarite argument on the Japaneseness here!:wave:

[nurizeko]

I am certain about one thing; the Japanese people believe in what they want to believe even in just lies.

Same can be said for chinese, americans, europeans, puleaaase......the worlds just as bad all over, look at the americans opposition to the legal ports deal, that alone has clinched it for me the american people dont know what their talknig about and just believe their own hot air.

[Maciamo]

Same can be said for chinese, americans, europeans, puleaaase......the worlds just as bad all over, look at the americans opposition to the legal ports deal, that alone has clinched it for me the american people dont know what their talknig about and just believe their own hot air.
You sometimes surprise me by your lack of gradation and nuance in comparing national characters. It is obvious that humans can display the same traits all over the world, but what matters in comparisons is to determine what traits are more common (even slightly so) among what kind of people. That's why we can say that Americans are fat compared to, say, Japanese or French people, and it brings nothing to the discussion to ultra-relativise and say that there are fat and slim people everywhere. Statistically, there are proportionally more fat people in the US than Japan or France ! So I believe you can find some personality traits or social taboos more common in one culture than in another as well. What would be the point of comparing countries and cultures if it was always to say that so and such people can be found all over the world ?

[gaijinalways]

That being said, there are liars all over the world. The difference in Japan, lieing is more tolerated, as harmony is generally valued over the truth (versus America, where the opposite is generally true). Every society has its versions of 'white' lies (or what they sometimes refer to in Japan as social lies), it just seems sometimes hte Japanese are more bald faced about coming up with lies that are sometimes not even close to being beleivable, yet Japanese people are often conditioned not to question these 'variations' of the truth!

[pipokun]

What is the truth?

[nice gaijin]

I think that's a very interesting question, pipokun, but it seems to be a whole new can of philosophical worms that I'm not sure is within the original scope of the thread. Of course if someone is willing to pick up that topic and run with it I have no problem, but I'm afraid I will make no such attempt.

That said, I think you give Japanese people too little credit, gaijinalways. A lot of the overt lies that you mentioned are a part of proper social interactions that, as you said, value harmony over straightforward bluntness. That is not to say that Japanese people are conditioned to believe everything they hear: not questioning something out loud is itself a method of preserving harmony, but that is not to say that this altered version of reality is accepted as truth.

[dreamer]

Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.
1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill
Now when compared to my culture, I agree on number 2,3,4,5,6. How does the list compared to your culture or country's list of most hated personalities? Do you find the list to be an accurate reflection on present day Japanese society?


Hahaha I guess I wouldn't be welcomed in japan then :relief:
Personnally, my asian friends like me for skill # 3, 5 and 9

[Zenigata]

The book title is called 日本人の行動様式 by 荒木博之. Here's a link to the Kinokuniya online store if anyone's interested in finding out more:
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/wshosea.cgi?W-NIPS=9840118471
I am not sure if there is an English translated version but the book was first published in 1992 so there might exist one. I am about 1/3 through the book and there are some really interesting observations about Japanese. Some I find too theoretical to be practically applied to the Japanese general public.
This book has not been translated into English so far, but a review (http://japanese.gatech.edu/gatj/book-review.html) of it in English is available on the website of the Georgia Association of Teachers of Japanese.
The book title is translated as Behavioral Patterns of the Japanese by Hiroyuki Araki (Kodansha 1973).

[godppgo]

After some thought I would like to elaborate on the number one character (opportunist) more.

Merriam-Webster defines opportunist as:
"One who takes advantage of any opportunity to achieve an end, often with no regard for principles or consequences."

This is obviously in conflict with the practice of Bushido which emphasizes a great deal on living and acting accordingly to principles. Even though Bushido is not having the same impact it once had on Japanese society, most Japanese in certain ways still live according to Bushido principles.

Another traditional Japanese value which conflicts with the opportunist character is the Confucius principle of Loyalty (忠). One should be loyal to his master to the point which himself and his family are secondary when there is a conflict of interest. In return, the master bears the responsibility for the actions of his followers. In modern day Japan, this principle is best illustrated by the life-long hiring policy employed by many big Japanese corporations.

Of course, Japanese thinking is changing. Opportunist might not have such bad name as before but it is still not something being accepted widely by the general public. I hope this can give people a better understanding of the coming about of the unpopular opportunist character. I'll try to explain others later! :relief:

[yukio_michael]

look at the americans opposition to the legal ports deal, that alone has clinched it for me the american people dont know what their talknig about and just believe their own hot air.Why in the world would people be concered about an Islamic monarchy who's own residents have little to no rights taking over ports of entry, contrary to the security concerns of the coast guard, all passed through by a president who admited to not knowing anything about it until after the deal went through, and all during a period where security is paramount, if not in reality, but at least still within the minds of the US population... sounds ludicrous right!?

Here's a trait that I dislike, people in the UK arm-chair philosophising about how absurd and "wrong" US government is.

[kashiya]

A person with good social skill is usually a person who stands out in a group or a person who is not afraid of showing himself or herself. This kind of behavior is not encouraged in most asian cultures where conforming to group is what one should do instead of showing individuality. This is especially true for Japanese. This might be hard for westerners to understand because individualism is encouraged in most western cultures.
Myself for example, when I first came to Canada, I was appalled by some of the behaviors of canadian students in class. The most amazing behavior I observed during that time was that student actually ask question in class, not just one, but tons of questions. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to raise your hand in an asian class (true for Japanese too) and expose yourself to the whole class. Students also leave class without teacher's consent. The act of standing up and walking out of the class is seem as not conforming to group. During that few seconds of you walking out of class, the attention of the group has shifted to you, the individual, while the rest of students are still functioning as a group.

I guess it applies but only partly.
I was once on an English course in Canada in a school, where I was one of the few non-Asian ppl. I attended two types of English course: normal English and business English. The avarage age of the normal English class was about 25 yrs, in the business English it were mainly ppl over 30.
In the "younger class" the people were really relaxed and funny! THey were talkative and asked plenty of questions and they rather tried to be outstanding in some way. For instance there was this guy Naoki who had his hair in an afro-like-style and was jocking around etc. In this "older class" everyone was really silent, no-one asked any questions etc. I felt quite uncomfortable there, as I'm talkative and because everyone was silent I also just shut up and sat there without much talking (which is so unlike me...)
In my opinion this #9 applies to the older Asian ppl, as I have never experienced any "shyness" among the young ppl.

[pipokun]

No. 9 was just a mistranslation.

godppgo
As you know, the charactaristics the author described was based upon a field research on a small village in TOSA by a person in the Meiji era.

However,
つa hint: Horiemon, or Mr. Horie

[godppgo]

No. 9 was just a mistranslation.
godppgo
As you know, the charactaristics the author described was based upon a field research on a small village in TOSA by a person in the Meiji era.
However,
つa hint: Horiemon, or Mr. Horie

I really can't find a suitalbe English word to translate that trait and it seems I've confused many people.. sorry...
Yeah I guess Mr. Horie would be a good representation in this case.

[Asakusa]

Lying is a way of life in Japan, as people just cannot say what they truly think or feel. It's the most hypocritical society I've come to know.


Supposing that people really know what they truly -as you say- think or feel, I disagree this point of view. Not to say what you think or fell does not means to lie at all. I can tell something that is not the "truth", but I can be sincere, not hypocritic. Maybe we need to define the truth and the lie before. Again, this seem to me a manichean vision of life that I don't agree.

PS I apologize for my poor knowledge of english language that could makes me misunderstand something

[Kyoko_desu]

About #9, I suppose the writer said the word "good" sarcastically.
We have an expression "Happou bijin" （八方美人）here. Literally it means "Eight directions, beautiful person" and it really means a person who agrees with anyone with anything and tries to look nice to anyone. And of course, it isn't thought to be a very nice thing, and we would use this term like:
:okashii: Don't trust what she said to you, becuase she is happou bijin.
(Means: You should not trust her, because maybe she didn't really mean what she said. She just said it only to please you, or to avoide arguing. And she would probably agree the people who are saying the opposit things from you as well.)
:angryfire By the way, I would like to add one personality on the list.
I hate a person who is always bragging.

[Kyoko_desu]

A person with good social skill is usually a person who stands out in a group or a person who is not afraid of showing himself or herself. This kind of behavior is not encouraged in most asian cultures where conforming to group is what one should do instead of showing individuality. This is especially true for Japanese. This might be hard for westerners to understand because individualism is encouraged in most western cultures.
I think this kind of people are called "medachi tagari ya" （目立ちたがり屋）(A person who loves to stand out) and they sure are thought to be too much aggressive here.
After submitting the last post of mine, I noticed that I had missed reading this post by godppgo-san, and yes, maybe the author meant a person like him.

[dreamer]

but the point is that sometimes you stand out without wanting it...
I mean that for exemple, I'm one of the few asians at my uni who can speak french, and due to my function as foreign student council president there are often 5-6 people around me asking me questions. Would that be considered as standing out too much?

[godppgo]

I think this kind of people are called "medachi tagari ya" （目立ちたがり屋）(A person who loves to stand out) and they sure are thought to be too much aggressive here.
After submitting the last post of mine, I noticed that I had missed reading this post by godppgo-san, and yes, maybe the author meant a person like him.

Kyoko-san!

Thanks for the translation, I learned something new today! I had a very difficult time explaning number 9. Is there a term in Japanese to describe someone who is always bragging?

[Kyoko_desu]

Is there a term in Japanese to describe someone who is always bragging?
Hmmm, we don't really have a good one-word that can describe such kind of person.　I would say like 自慢好きな人（じまんずきなひと）, or 自慢ばかりする人（じまんばかりするひと).

[Crackpot]

Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.
1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill
Now when compared to my culture, I agree on number 2,3,4,5,6. How does the list compared to your culture or country's list of most hated personalities? Do you find the list to be an accurate reflection on present day Japanese society?


I think whoever got polled for that book were probably liars, dreamers or drinkers...

I was pleased to see maciamo tethering the thread back to an experiential level (a bit later on in this discussion) with his criticism of drying up a discussion saying something happens everywhere and not just Japan.

Anyway coming back to lying in Japan - it is something Im sweating about a lot recently. I still havent gotten to the basis for its rampancy or its full extent in Japanese life yet but Ive seen Japanese people lie at scientific meetings (in Japan in the Japanese language), been sure that the person being lied to was aware of this and always let it slide. I have participate in many international scientific syposia and I have never been aware of this before.

So I have run through numerous rationalisations to dig deep and somehow explain this apalling behaviour. But Im struggling. The best I can come up with is to imagine there is some link to the Edo era where your word was your life. People accepted it with the understanding that it was given under pain of death - if you lied and were found out you did the honourable thing. But nowadays taking your life in this manner is uncommon thankfully, put the acceptance of a persons word seems to remain - and of course this latitute gets abused by unscrupulous authority figures...

But it has to stop or the reputation of Japanese, at least within the international scientific community will be badly damaged...

I say expose the lying - espicically if the effects are far reaching

[strongvoicesforward]

My view is that lying here in Japan begins with tatemae. Those are superficial lies, that we may view as "white lies" (oh, Susan, your new hair style is great!), when actually it isn`t. Tatemae seems more prevalent here -- as if it is a daily thing -- a way of life. I don`t see it as deception with a purpose to full someone for self profit.

I think tatemae came about naturally in Japan due to the close proximity of living conditions and paper thin walls. It is just better to act as if you didn`t hear your neighbors fighting than act as if you did and then when you meet them outside greet them in a way that pulls knowledge off of whatever familiarity you have learned about them through close quarters. It probably started like that in small subtle ways and built and built until now we have this culture here of superficiality. It grates me.

I still hate the superficial comment about how well I am at using chopsticks despite the fact that the person complimenting me knows I have lived here for 15 years. I mean, have I ever complimented a Japanese about how well they can use "sit-down" style comodes to defacate? "Oh Junko, you really know how to use a toilet seat realy well and just sit so centered on the seat."

Actually, I`ve said that before, but sarcasm rarely registers with the Japanese humor bone -- unless you have a big squeeky red hammer. Then you are Jim Carry funny man.

[budd]

chopsticks?
they say that because that is what they would like to hear?
so they think that foreign people want them to say it to them
i never insult their level of english, but that's what they consistently apologize for
that is a good list, as far as accuracy imo. everybody knows that actors were regarded as yakza bitd rite?

[Crackpot]

My view is that lying here in Japan begins with tatemae. Those are superficial lies, that we may view as "white lies" (oh, Susan, your new hair style is great!), when actually it isn`t. Tatemae seems more prevalent here -- as if it is a daily thing -- a way of life. I don`t see it as deception with a purpose to full someone for self profit.
I think tatemae came about naturally in Japan due to the close proximity of living conditions and paper thin walls. It is just better to act as if you didn`t hear your neighbors fighting than act as if you did and then when you meet them outside greet them in a way that pulls knowledge off of whatever familiarity you have learned about them through close quarters. It probably started like that in small subtle ways and built and built until now we have this culture here of superficiality. It grates me.
I still hate the superficial comment about how well I am at using chopsticks despite the fact that the person complimenting me knows I have lived here for 15 years. I mean, have I ever complimented a Japanese about how well they can use "sit-down" style comodes to defacate? "Oh Junko, you really know how to use a toilet seat realy well and just sit so centered on the seat."
Actually, I`ve said that before, but sarcasm rarely registers with the Japanese humor bone -- unless you have a big squeeky red hammer. Then you are Jim Carry funny man.

Thanks for your tatemae explanation SVF and I look forward to the next time i am asked about using chopsticks by someone Id like to startle!

When I was growing up there was a number of paradoxes that might apply here. For example - being a drunk was deplored but most people got wasted frequently. Nobody liked a show-off or individualist because they put the average Joe who needs folk in a bad light. But if they were genuinely gifted then they were awed. I could give a few more examples but my main thought is that I grew up in a poor working class society, isolated by lack of money for travel and education, which I now realise, is the type of society world wide that struggles the most with the paradoxical essence of human nature.

I wonder if Japan, which has a huge middle class (although perhaps somewhat declined in the past 15 years) and access to education and travel is widespread if there not is a conscious impediment to a more sophisticated understanding of the complexities of human nature because of their unique history or is the process slower here for other reasons. And that this impedment permeates the arts, sciences, politics etc.

Just a dumb thought

[pipokun]

About #9, I suppose the writer said the word "good" sarcastically.


As wrote before, the No.9 was "やり手" in the original book.
No the happo-bijin at all.

[Kyoko_desu]

Seems like I missed alot of posts before posting my own.
I'm very sorry for my carelessness and poor understanding.

[Ost Prussia]

I like number 9.

[Grib]

I h8 drunk liars and dreaming property owners.

[miu]

I totally agree that complaining is seen as a negative trait... Maybe it's associated with bothering other people? For me, complaining is a form of small talk :blush: I complain to my friends a lot and they complain to me - the point isn't trying to solve the problem, it's all about sharing the load. I think that guys, too, in general see complaining as a negative trait: they think they must immediately solve the problem somehow when it isn't at all the point :bluush:

Another characteristic which I think the Japanese probably find negative is people who talk about themselves and how they feel. For example, I usually say something like "I feel that..." "In my opinion..." when I want to explain something during an argument etc. I have the impression that the Japanese find this very self-centered whereas I just see it as explaining my side since the other person might have no clue how I feel. :souka:

[FrenchMan]

3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer

These are qualities in France.. Especially debators French do that on a daily basis.

[ricecake]

Kyoko-san!
Thanks for the translation, I learned something new today! I had a very difficult time explaning number 9. Is there a term in Japanese to describe someone who is always bragging?

What's the book title of this Chinese translated version ?

I would like to get a copy,for I recently take interest in how Japanese see fellow Japanese and behave among their own people and foreigners.

[JimmySeal]

Complimenting someone on their chopstick skills is very patronizing and annoying, but what's worse is the fall-out-of-your-chair and lie-on-ground-gasping-for-air shock that they sometimes express when they see you using chopsticks. That's quite insulting. One time recently someone said "you use chopsticks well." and I said "Thanks. So do you." One of my friends took preemptive action and praised a Japanese person on their chopstick skills before they could do it to him.

The dishonest nature of most Japanese people really does get on my nerves, and I dislike the way that people shoot down compliments and expect you to do the same. I'd rather see them be boastful than lie to me.


The word opportunist has a negative connotation in English also. It usually means not just a person who takes risks and seizes opportunities, but also someone who is willing to step on others, lie, debase themselves to achieve those goals.

What's strange is that the most unpopular trait is missing from the list, though it occurs in people with traits 1, 3, 4 and maybe 5: free thinker.

[godppgo]

What's the book title of this Chinese translated version ?
I would like to get a copy,for I recently take interest in how Japanese see other Japanese and behave among their own people and foreigners.

The Chinese title for this book is "日本人的行動模式".

[ricecake]

The Chinese title for this book is "日本人的行動模式".

Ooops ... forgot to ask for name of Taiwan publisher.

Thanks,
ricecake

[firideibi]

Konnichiwa:

Hmm... the only exceptions I can see in the list are opportunists and those posessing social skills...

There is something in the American spirit that would seize any opportunity (say, to become famous or "make it big") so long as it doesn't implode on you.

I'm not so sure that "social skills" should be considered a strike against anyone. If anything, they seem to be a requirement here in the States, even if you are learning-disabled like me (ADHD).

I know I do have a hangup with "property owners" (landlords as we'd call them here); in the New York City area they have a bad reputation -- especially among apartment dwellers who are trying to make those rent payments every month while the landlord groups whine about the rents not being high enough for their coffers.

Hmmm...

Philip David
2007.07.13
:souka: