Japan plans foreign fingerprinting [Archive]

Dutch Baka

Mar 8, 2006, 02:42

I am not sure what to think about it yet, one way it is good, but maybe they should also take the Fingerrprints of all Japanese... Because wasn't the only terror in Japan happened by a Japanese sekt?

Japan's Cabinet has approved controversial plans to fingerprint and photograph most foreign visitors, in an effort to tighten security.
The measures would apply to all foreigners over the age of 16, except permanent residents and those on official business.
Japan's justice minister acknowledged human rights concerns but said fighting terrorism was more important.
The US introduced similar measures after the 11 September 2001 attacks.
Japan's proposed legislation still needs approval by parliament.
Chiho Nakai of the Justice Ministry's Immigration Bureau said it would be submitted during the current session, which ends on 18 June.
Critics have argued the Bill violates a constitutional principle to treat people with respect.
"Not all terrorists are foreigners, and even if such a foreigner tries to enter Japan, we may not have physical information about the person in advance," the Japan Federation of Bar Associations said in a statement in December.
Security worries
But Justice Minister Seiken Sugiura argued on Tuesday that the controversy was worth it.
"There may be a problem [with human rights] I think. But domestic policies to reduce illegal immigrants and anti-terrorism measures are more important," he told reporters.
The number of foreign visitors to Japan hit a record high of 7.45 million in 2005, according to the justice ministry.
Japan is worried it could be a target for terrorism due to its close links with the US, and its despatch of troops to Iraq.
But the issue of fingerprinting foreigners in Japan is particularly sensitive. Until a few years ago, it fingerprinted all resident foreigners.
Representatives of various minority groups called on Tuesday for Japan to enact a law to outlaw racism and other discrimination.
Doudou Diene, UN special rapporteur on racism, compiled a report to the UN made public in January which accused Japan of profound discrimination against its minorities, and urged the government to pass a law against it.

Kaspian K

Mar 8, 2006, 03:01

misa.j

Mar 8, 2006, 03:41

I agree with Kaspian. If this was implemented as a new law, it would definitely hurt tourism.
Also, I don't think Japan has the same type of intelligence against international terrorism as the US does, so I'm not sure how this is going to merit them as a counter terrorism measure.

changedonrequest

Mar 8, 2006, 06:16

Do you really think it is going to hurt tourism? Please people be realistic, it hasn't hurt the US, and it isn't all that big of a deal. If you have been through an US airport you will see that it is just placing one finger down on a sensor pad and *beep* it's down in about the time it takes me to type the letter "a" on this computer. It really is no big deal.

Japan until just within the past few years was finger printing foreign residents.

nurizeko

Mar 8, 2006, 18:47

pipokun

Mar 8, 2006, 21:55

The only real terrorist attack against japan in its recent past was by a japanese religious cult, why they feel the need to do this to foreign visitors is beyond me, since Japan has hardly ever been an objective of islamic or any real kinda terrorism except the home grown variety.
I think its a poor and needless plan and will only hurt japan in the long run...
"Oh, i heard Japan is nice, we should go there sometime."
"Nah, apparently they fingerprint and note down your details like a common criminal, i dont want to go somewhere where im treated like a crook the second i arrive in the country."
"Your probably right, lets take our tourist money and bussiness elsewhere, to benefit another country that doesnt abuse and discriminate foreigners so much, fighting terrorism my ass, japan has never been a target of international terrorism."

No matter how super sensitive X-ray detectors the Heathrow has, people enjoy travelling around your country. I was so surprised that the detector evern reacted at my cotton facial towel in my pocket, though.
No matter how impatient you really are, tourists keep quiet and queue up at the immigration for non-EU lines, and more. Just let your girlfriend go through the immigraiton without any return tickets. It must be a good English practice for her.

It was just my expericece, but immigration staffs at Waterloo were much more lovelier than the guys at Heathrow, I suppose.

DoctorP

Mar 8, 2006, 22:45

I don't see this hurting tourism at all.

I give my standard answer to this...if you have nothing to hide, then you should not be against this. It will, in the long run, make everyone safer!

Da Monstar

Mar 8, 2006, 23:18

I for one don't mind it. If you haven't done anything wrong then why fear having your fingerprints checked by the officials?

Dutch Baka

Mar 9, 2006, 03:57

How much can we trust fingerprints...anyone know that?

yidaki

Mar 9, 2006, 16:56

Man, this sucks.
I'm not sure I want to go to Japan anymore.

"Not all terrorists are foreigners, [_ _ _]" the Japan Federation of Bar Associations said[. . .].Exactly.
And not all foreigners are terrorists.
So why treat them as such.
Innocent until proven guilty is something I like to swear by.
Otherwise we could go to witchburning and whatnot :)

gaijinalways

Mar 15, 2006, 01:51

In that case, why not fingerprint everyone?

Sukotto

Mar 15, 2006, 07:49

here's one article on

February 20, 2006
A "100 Per Cent Certainty"
The FBI and the Myth of Fingerprints

In 1995, so the Chicago Tribune series discovered, " one of the only independent proficiency tests of fingerprint examiners in U.S. crime labs found that nearly a quarter reported false positives, meaning they declared prints identical even though they were not--the sort of mistakes that can lead to wrongful convictions or arrests."

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn02202006.html

don't get me started on the us gov'ts "patriot act".
unless you really want me to.

Riyko

Mar 15, 2006, 08:08

I don't mind it either, their just trying to make it a safer place. I honestly have nothing to hide from them.

[off topic, but it's trying to get a point across]
Talking about security issues in the US and how they've been heightened. Last year I was flying from SLC to go up to montana to take care of my grandma and I got through security with my pocket knife in my carry on bag and they even took everything out of the bag. I didn't even know I had my pocket knife in my bag until the week I left montana. Just goes to show you even flying in the Us isn't safe!

Reiku

Mar 15, 2006, 09:19

Ironically, I don't have a problem with this.

Yes, there are terrible things that could be done with it, but I'm sure the Japanese police have better things to do than frame tourists for kicks.

I don't know how much it will help against terrorism, people with organized criminal intent also usually have plans for bypassing security measures, but it makes sense to have an accurate record of who comes into the country.

Imagine if you lost our wallet and could just put your finger on a pad and prove who you were?

Especially useful for foreigners, because a lost wallet might mean a lost passport--which can be very, very bad.

In the long run it would be better as a verification system for tourists, than a means of catching terrorists--a quick and easy means to prove your legitimacy.

Just press, beep, and "Oh yes, he's on the tourist list."

nurizeko

Mar 16, 2006, 20:01

The fact i dont look like osama bin laden should be enough proof i am who i say i am.

Otherwise Japans terror issues are a domestic noe which concerns Japanese alone.

Dutch Baka

Mar 17, 2006, 02:58

The fact i dont look like osama bin laden should be enough proof i am who i say i am.

So everyone who does look like Osama bin laden is a suspect? and who do you think that look like Osama bin laden?

nurizeko

Mar 18, 2006, 19:06

Osama bin Laden funnily enough.

As ive said, Japan has no reason to "crackdown" on international terrorism when it doesnt concern it, its just a descrimatory act against foreigners.

Since the only terrorist attack against japan was done by japanese, they should fingerprint all japanese instead.

Mikawa Ossan

Mar 18, 2006, 19:47

pipokun

Mar 18, 2006, 21:02

Don't worry. All Japanese passports should be IC-chip embedded soon.

nurizeko

Mar 19, 2006, 04:54

Funnily enough mikawa, i had a suspicion this fingerprinting was more to do with a percieved false observation that foreigners are criminals.

Which is sad because otherwise, my experience of japan has been positive.

yukio_michael

Apr 1, 2006, 03:40

The problem is this--- Japan has some form of perceived threat from say, North Korea, Mainland China, and to an extent, a exagerated threat to their society through immigration legal or otherwise... but does that, or has that, ever had to do with actuall terrorism?

These propostions as I've read, give them very blanket ruling as to allowing people into the country--- do they think you might be a threat, and under what reasoning? Sorry, you'll be denied entry--- there doesn't seem to be any guidelines for this and it will reinforce not elieviate Japan's record as a welcoming country--- (Tourism is NOT a welcoming factor--- every country wants your tourist dollars)...

The Japanese legal bar Assoc. has even found this to be questionable and that for lack of better words, 'unconstitutional' and will in fact have a negative and isolationist effect on Japan as these measures to combat terrorist are unchequed.

I feel that this is just another means to control the border, as what someone had mentioned, the only terrorist even of late has been one of inside Japan from soon to be terminated leader of Aum Shinrikyo...

I don't find that being fingerprinted hurts my civil liberties, but when customs agents take the time to actually leaf through my magazines and books, I cant imagine how my next trip will be.

yukio_michael

Apr 1, 2006, 03:43

Double post, sorry--- (editing can be a pain re-inserting cr/lf...), they already have an abysmal record for Asylum seekers, I think this will make it worse... see Human rights watch, Amnesty international etc.... Japan claims that the asylum seekers are lying because 'that's what they do'.

Shades of "Donald Rumsfeld'-esque logic anyone.

File under: Border patrol.

budd

Apr 19, 2006, 01:38

"Do you really think it is going to hurt tourism? Please people be realistic, it hasn't hurt the US, and it isn't all that big of a deal."

the u.s. got different ways of discrimination, thus they attract people for different reasons?
me myself i don't know but three people (that are not japanese) who want to go to japan
and i am/was one of them
need to find out when this stuff starts, if it hasn't
one last big shopping spree is in order

dangdaga

Apr 21, 2006, 20:16

budd

Apr 22, 2006, 05:22

disagree with that totally
i tried to explain it earlier, but i will try again
they won't be fiingerprinting EVERYBODY like america does?
it will be like everything else in asia, done purely arbitrarily and capriciously
that is my opinion and observation

Dutch Baka

May 20, 2006, 16:24

The latest news on it:

Japan passes measure to fingerprint foreigners
Last Updated Thu, 18 May 2006 06:58:04 EDT
CBC News

Japan's cabinet has given final approval to a plan to fingerprint and photograph all adult foreigners entering the country, six years after the country dropped a similar requirement because of privacy concerns.

Cabinet made the decision Wednesday, a day after its parliament's Upper House approved a bill toughening security measures.

Japan's lower house approved the bill in March. Now that it's been approved by cabinet, its measures are expected to take effect in November 2007.

After that date, in order to enter the country, those born outside Japan and aged 16 or older will have to agree to be photographed and have electronic images of their fingerprints taken.

The images will be checked against those in international crime and terrorism databases, as well as domestic crime records, and then stored for an unspecified time.

Read All (http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/05/17/fingerprints-japan.html)

pipokun

Jun 7, 2006, 21:01

What do you think of the new biometric EU passport?

Orionvortex

Jun 23, 2006, 10:38

I feel sorry for those who have permanent residence status because now they must wait in line with all of the other foreigners just like they are tourists. That would be a tough pill to swallow considering all of the bureaucratic mess they had to go through just to obtain permanent residence status only to be treated like a tourist.

nurizeko

Jul 27, 2006, 23:30

It wouldnt be such an issue if all people were getting this done, even if it was an inconvenience still, its the fact the native Japanese can sail past while I am "checked in" in the fashion a suspected criminal is when arrested, its humiliating and just downright descrimination based on my looks/ethnicity.

Anti-terrorism my ass, anti-terrorism has been the golden excuse for all sorts of poor and unfair laws designed to scratch other itches then fair game such as actual safety of all people.

If I have to be threated like a suspected scuicide bomber, then all Japanese better be treated like it to.

I wanna see Yamada's and Ayumi's getting treated like a crook along with the Johns and Sarah's, it will still feel dirty but at least its fair.

MiCC

Oct 2, 2006, 14:08

we all know real reasons behind this is that japan want foreigners out

Dutch Baka

Oct 2, 2006, 17:07

we all know real reasons behind this is that japan want foreigners out

Let me take a guess: you had problems with the Japanese Immigration?

If you say things ( I think it's stupid and dumb what you said), please tell us why, instead of only a short sentence!

(but thanks for brining this thread back:blush:)

Alegi

Dec 6, 2006, 05:32

we all know real reasons behind this is that japan want foreigners out

I do get that feeling to, not sure why. But that won't stop be for trying to get to japan, not as a tourist (call it what you want) but as worker and a wife looker :blush: (that was meant as a joke, the last part).

Taiko666

Feb 21, 2007, 16:00

(Sorry for the use of we and us in this post, but this is another Japan / foreigner issue...)

It's only 9 months till we (foreign visitors and residents of Japan) are going to have to be fingerprinted and mug-shot upon (re)entry to Japan.

The usual activists (Debito, JapanProbe etc) seem to be completely silent on this issue. Have we all resigned ourselves to be treated even more like criminals? To have to wait ages (presumably) to get fingerprinted while our Japanese spouses and children swiftly waft though immigration? ("Mummy, where's Daddy?" "He's getting fingerprinted darling, because Daddy's a foreigner and lots of foreigners are nasty people.") To have our prints checked against those gathered from crime scenes, with the inherent risk of mistakes? (I'm pretty sure gaijin prints will get zealously checked before Japanese prints.)

I'm sure even the most Japan-loving of us realise or suspect this has nothing to do with terrorism control. Rather, it's seeing to be keeping control of foreigners to gain votes, and of course apeing (as always) the misguided lead of the USA.

KirinMan

Feb 21, 2007, 16:18

To have to wait ages (presumably) to get fingerprinted while our Japanese spouses and children swiftly waft though immigration? ("Mummy, where's Daddy?" "He's getting fingerprinted darling, because Daddy's a foreigner and lots of foreigners are nasty people.") To have our prints checked against those gathered from crime scenes, with the inherent risk of mistakes? (I'm pretty sure gaijin prints will get zealously checked before Japanese prints.)

Well to us foreign residents of Japan that have P.R. status we don't have to go through the foreign entrants line anyway so that shouldn't be an issue.

Why do you think that the Japanese immigration authorities are going to fingerprint Japanese nationals anyway?

I've been finger printed here, back in the day when the finger prints were also included on the Gaijin Registration Card, what's the big deal? I am not a crimminal and I have nothing to hide.

Outside of the finger print, not prints btw, US immigration fingerprints all foreigners applying for green cards as well, do you have a problem with that?

Mikawa Ossan

Feb 21, 2007, 16:43

I've been finger printed here, back in the day when the finger prints were also included on the Gaijin Registration Card, what's the big deal? I am not a crimminal and I have nothing to hide.
Yes, yes, I remember this, too, as I may have posted on this thread earlier. I could never understand the big stink a lot of foreigners made about that at the time, and I still can't.

pipokun

Feb 21, 2007, 18:49

KirinMan

Feb 21, 2007, 19:05

Name-change law aids illegal reentry to Japan
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070220TDY02006.htm
If the government would treat foreign-nationals accoring to the countries where they are from, it must provoke another harsh argument.

After reading this article, btw thanks for sharing that, at least to me it sure makes sense for the immigration officials to start finger-printing and taking pictures of people entering the country.

This is a great example of someone breaking the law and getting caught at but after the fact, if she had been finger printed the first time it probably never would have happened.

Taiko666

Feb 22, 2007, 13:30

Why do you think that the Japanese immigration authorities are going to fingerprint Japanese nationals anyway?

The immigration authorities aren't going to fingerprint Japanese nationals. But Japanese who've been arrested will have had their prints taken.

Outside of the finger print, not prints btw, US immigration fingerprints all foreigners applying for green cards as well, do you have a problem with that?

Yes, I do. The USA is just as bad as Japan in this respect.

KirinMan

Feb 22, 2007, 14:14

The immigration authorities aren't going to fingerprint Japanese nationals. But Japanese who've been arrested will have had their prints taken.

Yes, I do. The USA is just as bad as Japan in this respect.
So what does that have to do with your last post? If you are attemtping to say that foreigner's being fingerprinted is the same as being treated as a crimminal then why not come out straight and say that, instead of beating around the bush?

Which btw I disagree with you in the first place.

Geez then do you also have problems with people joining the military getting fingerprinted as well? btw they get fingerprinted too. Oh it isn't just that either, people in sensitive jobs get it done as well.

The point I am trying to make to you is that if you have nothing to hide, then what is the problem with it? It isn't your country here and if the Japanese want to do it, so be it. It's just a part of the rules that one has to following living here. If you don't like it then you have no one but to blame but yourself if you decide to come here or stay here.

I have nothing to hide from the authorities do you?

craftsman

Feb 22, 2007, 14:20

Yes, I do. The USA is just as bad as Japan in this respect.

I agree with Taiko666. I remember getting fingerprinted for the foreign registration card and was outraged. Interestingly, I have had conversations about fingerprinting in the past with American friends and they were much more pro the idea than my British colleagues were. I wonder if there is anything cultural in the different reactions.

For me, it's got nothing to do with the fact you have nothing to hide or you're not a criminal - but everything to do with control and power and the potential misuse. This goes for Japan, the US etc.

Also safety? Fingerprinting makes us no safer. It's a political decision not one of safety.

KirinMan

Feb 22, 2007, 16:04

Craftsman you do bring up point here by looking at the discussion from a cultural aspect. I don't know about others, and I also have an overall tendency to look at many things that others choose to look at negatively from a more positive point of view.

I do think that it is a protection of sorts from possibly being accused of something that one didn't do.

Whether Japan is copying something that other countries are doing is a different point in my opinion. Japan decided to do it and it really isn't a small undertaking in any way shape or form. It costs quite a bit of money to install all the necessary equipment and train the personel to use it. So it is an investment, that I feel is overall being put into place to protect the people here in Japan from potential criminal's entering the country.

Why the outrage at the fingerprinting for the registration card? If it bothered you so much why did you stay here? What was the reason for the anger?
Outrage as you know is a word that has very strong connotations. Bothered, upset, angry, ok maybe at feeling like that you are being treat as a crimminal, because that is what most people equate with fingerprinting. Yet it is just a source of identification, nothing more, nothing less.

I've been fingerprinted entering the military, and fingerprinted for living here and I take it as a protection of me and my rights rather than an intrusion on my privacy.

craftsman

Feb 22, 2007, 16:42

Why the outrage at the fingerprinting for the registration card? Bothered, upset, angry, ok maybe at feeling like that you are being treat as a crimminal, because that is what most people equate with fingerprinting.

Yes as you said - outrage because at the time I equated fingerprinting with criminals like most other people. The finger prints were not used for identification as the card had a photograph on it so I concluded that I could only have been seen as a potential criminal. This was a while ago now. I was also trying to get use to the idea of having to carry around ID which was a totally new concept for me. So my initial reactions were anger. (Anger doesn't last very long with me)

If it bothered you so much why did you stay here?

I thought this was a bit of a strange question. Outrage at the act of fingerprinting foreigners has no bearing on staying or not staying in Japan. You can be angry or unhappy about something without it affecting other areas of your life. I am often outraged at injustices in Japan or elsewhere but what has that got to do with me having to leave because of them?

Yet it is just a source of identification, nothing more, nothing less.

But that's not how I see it. They are part of a wave of infringements on individual rights and freedoms in the guise of 'security' and 'fighting terrorism'.

Taiko666

Feb 22, 2007, 17:07

If you are attemtping to say that foreigner's being fingerprinted is the same as being treated as a crimminal then why not come out straight and say that, instead of beating around the bush?
I thought I made that clear in my post when I said
Have we all resigned ourselves to be treated even more like criminals?

Geez then do you also have problems with people joining the military getting fingerprinted as well? btw they get fingerprinted too. Oh it isn't just that either, people in sensitive jobs get it done as well.
When I arrive back at Narita I'm neither joining the military nor taking a sensitive job. I'm simply returning home, and I don't want to be treated like a criminal.

The point I am trying to make to you is that if you have nothing to hide, then what is the problem with it?
Er... being treated like a criminal, and having my privacy invaded. I've nothing to hide, but I don't wish to compelled to prove it.

I think there is a British/USA cultural difference here. Most Britons would definitely be outraged to have their prints taken for no good reason. The same goes for things like drugs tests at work, which are almost completely unheard of in Britain, yet commonplace in the USA.

Yet it is just a source of identification, nothing more, nothing less.

And the only reason they want this identification is because they view me as a likely criminal. The Japanese are not routinely fingerprinted, from which I can infer that the Japanese consider foreigners more likely to be criminals than Japanese.

It isn't your country here ...

That doesn't mean I deserve to be treated like a criminal. If I am indeed a guest (I dislike that concept) then the Japanese are extremely rude to their guests.

... and if the Japanese want to do it, so be it.

You're giving the Japanese license to do absolutely anything they want then? Are you a masochist? :-)

If you don't like it then you have no one but to blame but yourself if you decide to come here or stay here.

If it bothered you so much why did you stay here?

Whenver they occur, these sort of comments are almost invariably unnecessary and totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

For me, it's got nothing to do with the fact you have nothing to hide or you're not a criminal - but everything to do with control and power and the potential misuse. This goes for Japan, the US etc.

Also safety? Fingerprinting makes us no safer. It's a political decision not one of safety.

I couldn't agree more!

KirinMan

Feb 22, 2007, 17:45

I thought I made that clear in my post when I said
Have we all resigned ourselves to be treated even more like criminals?

I'm sorry about this point I don't see it the same way as you do so I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I understand what you are saying and respect your opinion, yet I don't agree, that's all.

You're giving the Japanese license to do absolutely anything they want then? Are you a masochist?

Not hardly, again I don't look at it that way.:-)

This was a while ago now. I was also trying to get use to the idea of having to carry around ID which was a totally new concept for me. So my initial reactions were anger. (Anger doesn't last very long with me)

Fair enough, I can't stay angry that long either. I have not had a problem with carrying around the ID. It just sits there next to my drivers license.

But that's not how I see it. They are part of a wave of infringements on individual rights and freedoms in the guise of 'security' and 'fighting terrorism'.

On the fingerprinting at the airports, that's one thing. But the fingerprinting for the gaijin registration card has been going on a whole heck of a lot longer than that. The only reason that the finger print was taken off the registration card itself was because of the Zainichi Kankokujin lobby making a big stink about it. From their point of view I can understand the reasoning for complaining. As they have been born and raised here, some third or even fourth generation. However I am a foreigner here and if Japan decides, for me to live here I have to follow this law then so be it. If I couldn't live with it then I wouldn't stay. I do not like having to have it done, but it is just one of the facts of living here in Japan.

I am also pretty certain that the UK fingerprints immigrants and people that apply for residency there as well. So it isn't just Japan either, it is just a fact of life in living here.

Whenver they occur, these sort of comments are almost invariably unnecessary and totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Actually I find it to be very revelant in that I see many people that complain quite often about this or that about life here in Japan, and compare how things are done in their country of origin to life here. That's all.

Craftsman I also think that I am going to have to agree to disagree with you about this subject. Thanks for making your points here as well. Cheers!

pipokun

Feb 22, 2007, 19:35

KirinMan

Feb 22, 2007, 19:41

craftsman

Feb 22, 2007, 20:00

KirinMan

Feb 22, 2007, 20:09

The fact that Britain now requires foreign students to submit a police report and possibly be photographed and finger printed in order to get their student visas makes not a jot of difference in how I feel. Nationalities or countries don't come into it for me - it's about human dignity and respect. I'm against making people, regardless of the country, feel like criminals just for crossing a border.

So you would be making the same complaints if you were fingerprinted in the US as well?

Ok then where do countries rights extend at protecting themselves from crimminals? If you believe in the right of fair passage for all then is it fair to say that you think it is fair for crimminal's to have the freedom to travel whereever they want to go, even if they have not been convicted of a crime in the country that they are attempting to enter?

nurizeko

Feb 22, 2007, 20:22

I wonder what the future for fingerprinting will be anyway, since they are going out of fashion and increasingly being shown to be unreliable.

undrentide

Feb 22, 2007, 20:33

I wonder what the future for fingerprinting will be anyway, since they are going out of fashion and increasingly being shown to be unreliable.

Eye-scanning (iris recognition)?
:souka:

pipokun

Feb 22, 2007, 21:23

It is interesting to read threads in 2ch or else about something like "help! I want to go abroad, but I have criminal records!".
My conclusion is that US, UK and Australia is the 3 intolerent countries for some Japanese (not incl. me, of course).

A funny story...
if someone named pepokun arrested and registered at a black list of an Asian country who is trying to eradicate human-traficking or yakuza entering, it is likely that I can not enter the country.

KirinMan

Feb 23, 2007, 08:14

I want to apologize if I came across a bit crass in my last post here. The point I am asking about is how far do you feel or think that countries can go in having some type of control over the entrance of foreigner's into their countries?

Is it wrong to not expect some type of controls over where one can go or what one can do when living in a foreign country? At least until that person establishes themselves as a viable member of that country or society?

If people feel that there should be total freedom from having their background's checked or being forced to carry around identification identifying them as a foreign resident, then how does a country, in this case Japan, maintain control over who comes and goes within their country?

Short time visitors of course have visa's. Long term residents, and those here for specific reasons must carry the foreigner registration card. If one complains about getting finger printed for that card then are you also against having to carry some type of identification as well?

As I have stated before I have a strong tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt and also look at things more positively than negatively, so I look at the fingerprinting at the most a necessary nuisance that one has to deal with living here.

Sirius2B

Feb 23, 2007, 08:54

I don't plan to visit Japan soon, and if I go, I would not be bothered to put my fingerprints somewhere.

On the other hand, it is to be asked if this policy was motivated to satisfy, for example, a right-wing, xenophobic agenda of some politicians (I don't know Japanese politics at all, but I guess for similar cases).

Then I will ask, if all visitors would be fingerprinting equally, or there is such think as a "list of countries" specially targeted. Just for information.

After that, my complains would not go to Japan or the USA or any government that does it... but the goverments of those other countries, if they do not respond in tune, and do not fingerprints Japanese or US tourists.
Therefore, my respect to Brazil, that began to fingerprint US citizens after they begin to do the same with Brazilians.

I remember that I discussed this theme in another forum (Pravda.ru), and that many Americans in that forum, felt weird und angry, seeing photographs of the "good boys of USA" being fingerprinted by entering a foreign country... before, they failed to understand what a foreigner may felt being treated in a similar way when entering the USA.

No wonder, that Brazil is a Latin American power, that knows what dignity means, and responds in tune to everything it sees in the international arena.

Regards.

Sukotto

Feb 23, 2007, 12:14

I just read an article on www.asahi.com about this issue. They say that the Ministry of Justice is now planning on holding onto these fingerprints for 70~80 years. They also plan to make a database of these prints to assist in criminal investigations.
A quote from the article:
　法務省によると、入国審査時に両手の人さし指の指紋を採取。対象者は年間６００万～７００万人にのぼる。過去に退去強制処分にした約８０万人分の指紋・顔写真のリストや国際刑事警察機構（ＩＣＰＯ）の手配者リストなどと照合するほか、データベース化して犯罪捜査にも利用する方向。近く法案が成立すれば、来秋にも始める予定だ。
Funny how quickly anti-terrorism measures can morph into something else, isn't it?

in the US, the "patriot" act is supposed to be for terrorist stuff only too,
the possibility of it:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.05D.JVB.Patriot.htm
and I'm pretty sure it has happened already.

US history (COINTELPRO (http://www.monitor.net/monitor/9905a/jbcointelpro.html)) shows that governments before have used their powers to go beyond the law and spy on and actively disrupt political dissent, "patriot" seems to try and legalize such spying.

Has Japan ever witnessed spying on political dissidents/opposition in the post WW2 era? Active disruption/attempts at "neutralization" of dissent? Are their fears this law could be used against Japanese citizens? Could it be a first step towards finger printing all Japanese citizens as well? Other than that I agree with Sirius2B on this.

Taiko666

Feb 23, 2007, 13:31

Thanks for your comments Obeika!

All Japanese students studying in London except some short-term students with tourist visa are required to submit police reports when they get student visa and need to submit all finger prints to the police.

If this is true then I'm surprised and depressed. How do you know this, Pipokun? What sort of police reports? I'll ask my Japanese girlfriend about this- she studied in London for a year. Mind you, that was 5 years ago, things may have become more crazy.

[Later] - Dang, now the UK's at it too.
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1165344659165
The Government’s five-year Strategy for Asylum and Immigration entitled ‘Controlling our borders: making migration work for Britain’ published on 7 February 2005 announced that UKvisas will be collecting biometrics data from all visa applicants, irrespective of nationality.
I hadn't heard about this before, and I regularly read BBC news. Obviously, this takes the wind out of my sails a bit. But I still think it stinks...

Is it wrong to not expect some type of controls over where one can go or what one can do when living in a foreign country? At least until that person establishes themselves as a viable member of that country or society?

I see nothing wrong with having my background checked. I think education, work history and criminal record are both the mininum and maximum requirements. But since it's already been checked, and I've presumably been judged to be acceptable to Japan, I object to having my prints and mug-shot taken in case I become a criminal at some point in the future.

Long term residents, and those here for specific reasons must carry the foreigner registration card. If one complains about getting finger printed for that card then are you also against having to carry some type of identification as well?

Yes, I object to having to carry identification on pain of imprisonment! If everyone had to carry id then I'd be a lot easier with it. However, the current law is not only discrimatory, it's becoming increasingly unworkable. With more and more citizens not 'looking Japanese' (naturalized citizens, children of mixed-marriages etc) the situation will become chaotic. Unless these citizens carry some sort of id to prove they are Japanese, they're in for some interesting times down at the koban.
Anyway, now that even the UK's on the slippery slope, it's obvious that 'resistance is useless.' Perhaps that's why Debito et al don't seem to be focussing on this issue any more.

My solution: end discrimination! Every citizen should carry id, and have biometric data in their passports. Until then, the 'them and us' policies of Japan, the USA, and now the UK should be shelved. But switching into realism mode, this would be incredibly unpopular... hence the need to soften up the public by targeting those without a voice: foreigners.

KirinMan

Feb 23, 2007, 17:28

I agree with much of what you say, but I am a realist in knowing that even though what you wrote would be great I never foresee it happening in my lifetime.

this would be incredibly unpopular... hence the need to soften up the public by targeting those without a voice: foreigners.

Well the gaijin registration card has been in existance for a lot longer than the problems with world terrorism. As well as the green card too.

It may not make it right, but it is one thing that people have to deal with with living here. I happened to ask a good friend of mine his ideas on the subject and you know he thinks of it in a positive light as well. He thinks that the card itself is also a protection for foreigners living in Japan. Yet when I asked him about the scenario that you gave in your earlier post he became very thoughtful and did comment that he foresees all Japanese, someday needing to have some type of identification system, as the current system does have quite a few holes in it.

pipokun

Feb 23, 2007, 19:19

My current passport is a machine readable one, but next one must be more high-tech one. It is hard to forge it now, but some stupid backpackers sold it abroad before.
A bit different stories, but a Japanese singer quit his activities for a while after a car accident. He drove with his IDP for years...
I don't see any differences between British and American drivers, but it is quite easier to get a liscense in the US and some Japanese abusers went to get ones.
I don't oppose the controversial basic resident register card, even though liberal heads claim it would bring a terribly government controlled society.

Sukotto

Feb 24, 2007, 01:45

On registration cards,
isn't it a requirement to carry one's passport at all times already when in a foreign country?
and/or what's wrong with only that? Why need another card?

Fingerprinting by itself doesn't seem as bad,
but if you combine it with all the other stuff like
the US gov't has been doing in building Fortress America

Not the board game (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/99) :lol:

Some authors and social and/or political scientists such as Bertram Gross (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Specter_FriendlyFascism_FF.html) have been warning about this type of thing for years.
Such authors suggest that things like Fortress America could be symptoms of a "friendly fascism" (http://a4a.mahost.org/gross.html) which would have evolved from the "classical fascism" of WW2 era.

This all ties into the need to maintain its imperial policy, which we see in the modern day United States. This quote by ultra-right wing guy:
"For any imperial policy to work effectively...it needs moral and intellectual guidance.... It is much to be doubted that the United States can continue to play an imperial role without the endorsement of its intellectual class.... It is always possible to hope that this intellectual class will...help formulate a new set of more specific principles that will relate the ideals which sustain American democracy to the harsh and nasty imperatives of imperial power."
--Irving Kristol
Bush has taken the step of putting US citizen's lives on the line to maintain empire, where as since the US invasion of Vietnam it has been done mainly with military "advisors" and fought by local regimes or para-militaries/death squads etc.. so opposition by the US public does not grow, as the 1980s in Central America shows.

Thus the need to keep it "friendly" instead of the classic in the streets and boot wearing gov't agents, "storm troopers". Although that is happening to some degree in the States with the Bush regime, disapperances of terrorist suspects, the ability of the president to simply label anybody including a US citizen as an "enemy combatant" and apparently (somehow) strip people of their rights and toss them in Guantanimo indefinately w/out legal representation (an appeals court has ruled recently is ok), as well as with the militarization of local police forces with all the riot gear and such.

Has Japan ever experienced anything similar to COINTELPRO (http://www.monitor.net/monitor/9905a/jbcointelpro.html) in the states of gov't spying on (and actively trying to disrupt) political dissent or that of Reagan gov't spying on opposition to his Central American policies?

Granted it might be a leap from finger printing to trying to disrupt political dissent, but it is the same general direction. The dystopias popular of sci-fi thrillers are not inevitable futures (except the parts that already exist and are just presented in fiction as metaphor). I see no need for bio-passports or having one's dna coded into their passport. That seems to be for nothing more than control.

Mikawa Ossan

Feb 24, 2007, 08:46

On registration cards,
isn't it a requirement to carry one's passport at all times already when in a foreign country?
and/or what's wrong with only that? Why need another card?

Good point!
The card takes the place of your passport, so to speak, and you carry that around in place of your passport. Personally I would hate to have to lug my passport around with me everywhere I go. I think part of has to do with the fact that on the registration card, they can put all of your important information vis a vis Japan in one convenient place.

The registration card is the same size as a credit card, so it's no hassle to carry around at all; just stick it in your wallet and you're good to go!

pipokun

Feb 24, 2007, 22:52

My body image (http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/screening/backscatter.shtm) is no problem considering the visa waiver program.

Thunderthief

Feb 25, 2007, 02:45

Nice to know ill be finger printed and mug shotted like a dirty criminal next time I go to japan.

KirinMan

Feb 25, 2007, 07:16

Nice to know ill be finger printed and mug shotted like a dirty criminal next time I go to japan.

You know if that's how you feel about it then maybe it would be a better thing for you not to come here. Save a lot of people headaches from having to listen to your xenophobic attitude.

craftsman

Feb 25, 2007, 07:33

Nice to know ill be finger printed and mug shotted like a dirty criminal next time I go to japan.

I know the feeling you're talking about but I can say exactly the same about visiting America.

made of stone

Feb 25, 2007, 07:41

All Japanese students studying in London except some short-term students with tourist visa are required to submit police reports when they get student visa and need to submit all finger prints to the police.
If you're a Japan-loving advocate, please say something to the British immigration to work more efficiently...
Pipokun, where do you get this information? I ask because in the last few months I completed a one year student visa application here in the UK for a Japanese friend, and there was no need, or even request, to provide fingerprints, or produce police records. Sure there was a question 'have you ever been convicted of a crime in any country' and another 'have you ever had a proven connection to any terrorist organisation' (the exact phrasing I can't recall, but that was the exact meaning).

I think those kinds of questions are normal in any developed country's immigration procedures. And presumably, if you do answer 'yes' to these questions then you would have to produce the additional information, or provide fingerprints as a safety net of sorts to enter the country; that seems quite reasonable and fair.

On another point, it's very interesting to read about the possible difference in attitude between the US and UK.

I'm British and I too had a very hard time accepting being fingerprinted for my 'alien' card when it came down to it. Actually, it was something I didn't know about till after I'd arrived in Japan, and I did have second thoughts about going straight home again rather than put the finger to the ink, because I'm a great believer in civil liberties and very much anti-racism, and it struck me as an affront in both senses. After a good, long ponder though, I realised that the few thousand pounds, and six months of my life it had taken me to get to Japan, and the potentially life-changing experience I might have if I stayed, meant that I had to put up with it.

Having decided to accept it as a necessary evil, I was again surprised at the way it was conducted at the ward office. The chap seemed highly embarrassed to have to take me out to a cubicle round the back, I would've been happier to have it done out in the open. But it seemed like it had to be hidden, as if it was somehow a shameful thing. That's the only time I ever felt regarded like that in my six years in Japan.

I think it's a big step backward for Japan to revert to this. Perhaps not in tourist number terms, but it gives very much the wrong message in the way foreign visitors are treated.

pipokun

Feb 25, 2007, 17:20

I know some liberal right groups against the x-ray stuff or else, but it is also some British people who showed a bit brutality against immigrants.
I don't think the violence against immigrants is something in other counries except Japan at all.
The religious cult, AUM, killed people under the name of their religious right.
The far-left terrorist such as Japan Red Army also did same thing under the name of their political right. They are also Japanese.

I don't know how many people care if your government introduces the resident card or family registraion for natives. We just follow the rule if we want to study or work in the country concerned.

And if you think no civil right group in Japan, it is wrong.

Thunderthief

Feb 25, 2007, 22:45

You know if that's how you feel about it then maybe it would be a better thing for you not to come here. Save a lot of people headaches from having to listen to your xenophobic attitude.How is complaining about that being xenophobic? Please explain.

KirinMan

Feb 26, 2007, 05:45

How is complaining about that being xenophobic? Please explain.

No I don't care to explain, you need to figure it out yourself.

Sukotto

Feb 26, 2007, 06:46

xenophobia or ignorant hypocracy?
(no ill intended)

People have a right to self-determination including the right to freedom of association; to form groups, such as ones called countries. These groups will often have social norms some which the group feels so strongly about they call them laws and enforce them with penalties, sometimes via force/violence, but usually with the penalty for violating them being things such as compulsory monetary payments or jail time or perhaps the refusal entry into a particular geographic area, i.e. the territory said social group dominates or controls. Social humility or ostracization are also often informal or even formal penalties.

In case you did not know,
the US also has implemented such laws as required finger printing of immigrants. If such laws do not violate international human rights treaties, then there should be no problem. And if one is opposed to such a law, they should look first to their "home country", especially if they were in violation of basic human RIGHTS (not privilages granted by ANY government) standards or else stay home. But we should not say, "if you come to my country, you have to do X, but if I go to your country I do not have to do X".
Perhaps Thunderthief did not know the US started to require this in recent years. So, sure the world is closing down for just about anything but corporate wealth extraction. Just look let's look in the mirror first.
or something

I do have mixed feelings,
There is also the general idea of being a guest among other people,
which I believe is very important.

There is also the idea restriction of movement. All governments collude to prevent the true freedom of movement via such things as passports and who can and cannot come and go. For example it is illegal for by the US gov't for the "free people" of the US to travel to Cuba. The World Passport (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=397521&postcount=1) is one fun way to make fun of this.
See also Slate article (http://www.slate.com/id/2138567/)

KirinMan

Feb 26, 2007, 08:01

In case you did not know,
the US also has implemented such laws as required finger printing of immigrants. If such laws do not violate international human rights treaties, then there should be no problem. And if one is opposed to such a law, they should look first to their "home country", especially if they were in violation of basic human RIGHTS (not privilages granted by ANY government) standards or else stay home. But we should not say, "if you come to my country, you have to do X, but if I go to your country I do not have to do X".
Perhaps Thunderthief did not know the US started to require this in recent years. So, sure the world is closing down for just about anything but corporate wealth extraction. Just look let's look in the mirror first.
or something

I have a hard time believing that he Thunderthief, didn't know this. He comes across as being against it, but doesnt take the time to think about what his own country is doing, as you point out here in your post.

Oh and btw America has been fingerprinting immigrants for quite a number of years now and so has Japan, it isnt anything new.

Thunderthief

Feb 26, 2007, 08:06

Sukotto

Feb 26, 2007, 11:38

But I don't think the majority should have to pay for the misdeeds of minorities.
Exactly, like why should all Arabs, Muslims, or SouthWest Asians pay and be painted with the same brush for the misdeeds of some minority of religious fundamentalists? Terrorists aren't always foreingers as the Aum Shinrikyo (cult responsible for the 1995 Sarin attacks on the Tokyo subway) and Timothy McVeigh clearly display.

and, to make things interesting according to destertnews.com Utah News:
Nichols says bombing was FBI op (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,1249,660197443,00.html) as well as the Salt Lake Tribune (http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5271117)

KirinMan

Feb 26, 2007, 12:15

Well they never fingerprinted me so I just assumed they didn't, hum.
Would be easier just to do it for arabs and mexicans in the states, and just southeast asians and arabs in japan.
But I guess we can't have racial profiling can we? I suppose it is more logical to throw everyone in the same pool, if a little more inefficent.
But I don't think the majority should have to pay for the misdeeds of minorities.

Well you weren't an immigrant, nor seeking a residence status, you were only here on a tourist visa. The fingerprinting at airports is recent.

But I don't think the majority should have to pay for the misdeeds of minorities

Your way of thinking is naive, how are you going to tell the difference? You also have contradictory feelings about the entire situation, but are clear only when it affects you personally. Can't have it both ways you know.

Mikawa Ossan

Feb 26, 2007, 14:21

Fingerprinting is for the alien registration card, if I am not mistaken.

This means that if you come here to Japan on a tourist visa, the issue of fingerprinting will not apply to you. It will only apply if you plan to stay for an extended period of time and you need to register at your local municipality.

When I was fingerprinted for my alien card back in the days when they still had it before, it was done out in the open right at the counter where I did all the other paper work. That was in Nagoya. I suppose each place had a slightly different procedure, because I was surprised to hear about Made of Stone's experience.

Shaka

Feb 26, 2007, 16:47

I was just about to mention this. I guess this is the same way a lot of people felt when the U.S. introduced something similar. I don't know how necessary it is. I just don't see the country being a huge target for terrorists. The only group that has cause problems there has been Aum, and they're Japanese. I can't see this being a good thing for their tourism industry, either. These sorts of measures generally tend to make people feel less welcome.
But on the other hand, the USA is wanting Canadians to have special drivers license as opposed to a passport in the near future. How is this really different than the USA Alien Registration Card? We are after all, guests in Japan. I just see it as my fault for wanting to go there, and that Japan owes me nothing. I would sooner be mumbling over how the US wants us Canadians to carry passports to cross the boarder despite our shared history. Believe me, the USA is less nice to aliens than the Japanese who were only polite to me. I really enjoyed my time in Japan. They are all very friendly, polite, and sacred people. I found Japan to be a very spiritual place to be.

Chris K

Jun 13, 2007, 00:05

I don't see this hurting tourism at all.

I give my standard answer to this...if you have nothing to hide, then you should not be against this. It will, in the long run, make everyone safer!
I for one don't mind it. If you haven't done anything wrong then why fear having your fingerprints checked by the officials?
when officialdom never makes mistakes or is no way whatsoever corrupt, ill share your point of view.
Also, though not planning to commit any crime on my next visit, you never know what can happen, so id really rather not get fingerprinted on my way in.
I've found myself in a rather unpleasant situation on my last visit, and had I had to resort to violence to resolve the issue, having fingerprints on file would of been a bit of an issue.

Having said that, it won't put me off going as I already appreciate I will get viewed with suspicion and contempt by some, especially 'officialdom' anyhows.

EDIT: OK slightly aggresive post now Ive re-read. I think its important to state I understand that it's not the general populaces wish to have me fingerprinted, and the general populace do not view me with suspicion or contempt. My previous visit has shown me the exact opposite. 'Officialdom' and law enforcement though does attract more than its fair share of biggots. So as you can see the suspicion and contempt is mutual.

caster51

Jun 13, 2007, 00:18

I think the other county would need it like Japan.
if I was requested it in foreign country .....

I have no problem about that.

the begining of its history was GHQ's proposition

Dutch Baka

Jul 15, 2007, 15:32

I found this video today:Video: Why Japanese Immigration Will Fingerprint All Foreigners (http://newsonjapan.com/cgi-bin/news/link.cgi?ID=56031)

marsans

Jul 15, 2007, 15:36

I found this video today:Video: Why Japanese Immigration Will Fingerprint All Foreigners (http://newsonjapan.com/cgi-bin/news/link.cgi?ID=56031)

Apart from the voice acting being very humorous, it seems to make sense and be pretty simple. Seems like the only people who would mind this would be people who have something to hide.

Taiko666

Aug 8, 2007, 12:35

Seems like the only people who would mind this would be people who have something to hide.

Very, very wrong. People who mind this don't like been subjected to unwarranted indignities. If you've nothing to hide, I think I'd like to search your house...

And if Japan was your home, and you had a Japanese family, would you mind standing in line to have your fingerprints and mugshot taken every time you returned home? While your wife and kids breeze through with their dignity intact?

One of the few courtesies that Japan extends to permanent and long term residents is the current system of being able to fast track through immigration in the Japanese passport-holders queue. It makes you feel very welcome in an otherwise unwelcoming country. Now, it's 'please line up with the other potential criminals, gaijin-sama.'

Taiko666

Aug 8, 2007, 12:40

I think the other county would need it like Japan.
if I was requested it in foreign country .....
I have no problem about that.
the begining of its history was GHQ's proposition

If you moved permanently to the USA, would you happy giving your fingerprint every time you entered the country for the rest of your life?

frostyg02uk

Aug 8, 2007, 16:49

I dont mind giving my fingerprints at all. Even though the only terrorist attack has been homegrown there was threats a few years ago because Japan were helping america in iraq (Just like what happened to England) even though they didnt actually send soliders. I think every country should do it in a fight against crime also as a foreignor could commit a crime but leave the country a week or even few days later. If you consider america cancels your Visa and sends you home with no refund of a 400£+ ticket everytime they dont feel safe (no matter what country you come from including white british nationals) I dont think its a big deal.

8bit.vis

Aug 9, 2007, 10:52

I don't really understand how the fingerprinting campaign can be considered to be 'for the protection of the immigrant' whose prints are taken. The essential presumption is that foreign entries into a country have less of a connection to that country and are therefore more likely to abuse it; in this case, the specific justification offered seems to be combating terrorism. Which, by the way, isn't such an outlandish idea - regardless of the fact that Japan has not yet been attacked by foreign terrorists. But with regard to the law-breaking, whilst the notion might be intuitively true, generally speaking anyway, I am not sure how well it applies with specificity to Japan. I seem to recall somebody once linking to statistics which illustrated immigrants to be committing crimes at a proportionally lower rate than native Japanese?

Ultimately, the most glaring problem with regulations like this is the potential for abuse. As others have observed, mistakes can and do happen when matching fingerprints and people who've done nothing wrong can and do suddenly find themselves being unjustly dragged through some horror. However, the observation some people have made about being "treated like a criminal" holds, I think, only if being fingerprinted is usually associated in Japan with criminal activity. And even if it is, there are obviously examples of being fingerprinted there - say, for employment in a sensitive government sector - where no such connotation applies. What becomes important then is how the Japanese media decides to spin the issue; are gaijin or are gaijin not being portrayed as belonging to a criminal element while news of the fingerprinting / photographing campaign is reported on Japanese television.

With all of that said, I don't think I will have any objection to being printed and photographed and whatever else when I go. Whilst the "you have nothing to hide, so why object" argument is in my humble opinion a poor one, I just do not feel particularly threatened by this. I would be more worried about possibly reinforcing problematic social implications (gaijin = criminals) than about the occasional clerical mistake or the errant case of genuinely sadistic police work. And even along the lines of that worry, things like it being legal to be refused housing simply because of one's status as a foreigner seems like much more of a significant issue. No?

So with that, I shrug.

I should also probably admit up front that I wouldn't generally deign to protest or otherwise participate in a country's internal politics by any means other than simply leaving that country - voting with my feet, as they say - unless a) I had actually acquired naturalized citizenship, or b) I had married a Japanese citizen. But that's just me.

Masamune_74

Aug 9, 2007, 11:08

I think every major country that can afford this should have it. keeps the creeps out. Hooray for you Japan, I will willingly give you my prints and handsome face. CHU!

8bit.vis

Aug 9, 2007, 11:22

I think every major country that can afford this should have it. keeps the creeps out.
That's debatable, isn't it? It certainly would keep a contingent of common criminals out, but there might not be anything statistically significant about those coming from without as opposed to within. It is unlikely to, for example, stop a heavily funded terrorist operation. And so the question comes down to who is immigrating and what the crime-rate is like; if the rate is lower than the native population, then the whole program of targeting immigrants exclusively becomes one of questionable value.

hplaserjet6p

Aug 9, 2007, 12:05

you can see the stat here
h t t p: / / w w w . pa.go.jp/sosikihanzai/kokusaisousa/kokusai2/contents.htm
over the years, the crime commited by foreigners is increasing.

isnt it easier for japanese police to cooperate with foreign police if it had fingerprints?

Masamune_74

Aug 9, 2007, 12:06

May as well go with retinal scans while their at it, you have to have some major hardware and software to beat those. I am up for anything that keeps one safe even if is a bit inconvenient for me.

8bit.vis

Aug 9, 2007, 12:30

isnt it easier for japanese police to cooperate with foreign police if it had fingerprints?
That's a good point. It might make interpol more effective. I hadn't thought about people who had committed crimes elsewhere, fleeing to Japan with the intent of evading prosecution by living quietly. Something else to consider.

Petaris

Aug 9, 2007, 21:39

My feeling on this is the same as my feeling about the US doing this (and more), I think it goes overboard. They already scan our passports which have our photo ID and other information on them, why do they need to do this? Also I do feel that it equates to treating visitors to their country as criminals. Its like saying, "Your a foreigner and were pretty sure your here to break our laws and cause general havoc so we just figured we would get your fingerprints and mug shots out of the way now rather then having to do it later."

As for the "if you have nothing to hide" argument, just because I haven't done anything wrong doesn't mean that I don't have things I would like to keep personal or private. Some things are just no ones business but my own, or my families. People have the right to privacy, its the governments that need to be open for inspection.

Just my 2¥

GodEmperorLeto

Aug 10, 2007, 00:38

I am a big advocate of personal and political freedom (which is one of the reasons that, although I probably never do it on these fora, I am a noisy critic of my own government), I see fingerprinting as something that I feel can protect me rather than threaten my rights.

I have nothing to hide, and I am more annoyed by the government snooping around on people's hard drives looking for music (as opposed to bomb plans) than I would be if I was fingerprinted.

It may be inconvenient, but I don't see it as being overboard. My fingerprint proves that I am who I say I am beyond any and all doubts. In my opinion, that protects me. I have nothing to hide.

frostyg02uk

Aug 10, 2007, 04:23

My point on it helping against crime is this example.

A child abuser left DNA on his last crime scene but it took 4 more years and 3 more abused children to catch him because he wasnt on the database. So say someone was murdered in Japan but then in a week the foriegnor left the country never to return even though the police might have their DNA or fingerprints that person will never be caught due to lack of information. Id rather give up my prints and be safer then not. And taking someones prints takes less then 2 minutes. If it was my choice id be taking your DNA.

Masamune_74

Aug 10, 2007, 05:39

I am a big advocate of personal and political freedom (which is one of the reasons that, although I probably never do it on these fora, I am a noisy critic of my own government), I see fingerprinting as something that I feel can protect me rather than threaten my rights.
I have nothing to hide, and I am more annoyed by the government snooping around on people's hard drives looking for music (as opposed to bomb plans) than I would be if I was fingerprinted.
It may be inconvenient, but I don't see it as being overboard. My fingerprint proves that I am who I say I am beyond any and all doubts. In my opinion, that protects me. I have nothing to hide.
Couldn't agree with you more!

Goldiegirl

Aug 10, 2007, 05:44

I don't mind fingerprinting. I had to be fingerprinted here in the US just to open an account at my local Credit Union. I think with the relative ease of traveling around the world it is a good idea.

pipokun

Aug 10, 2007, 22:22

Ewok85

Aug 12, 2007, 13:04

isnt it easier for japanese police to cooperate with foreign police if it had fingerprints?

No, and for one simple reason. The Japanese police lack a system which can take advantage of this.

I object for 3 reasons.

1) Why should I give fingerprints when they do not have a system that can use my fingerprints effectively?

2) How long until we get this? http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1231089,00.html

3) Why should those who live here permanently but have not surrendered their citizenship also be subjected to this, while some others are let off?

Taiko666

Aug 15, 2007, 10:38

you can see the stat here
h t t p: / / w w w . pa.go.jp/sosikihanzai/kokusaisousa/kokusai2/contents.htm
over the years, the crime commited by foreigners is increasing.

hplaserjet, I'm sad that you've allowed yourself to be tricked by the Japanese media and politicians, like so many other Japanese. I would've thought that someone who is living abroad would be more open-minded.

Please read the following articles.

http://www.debito.org/japantimes100402.html

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?fl20021004zg.htm

Taiko666

Aug 15, 2007, 10:54

That's a good point. It might make interpol more effective. I hadn't thought about people who had committed crimes elsewhere, fleeing to Japan with the intent of evading prosecution by living quietly. Something else to consider.

It's not possible to flee 'to Japan with the intent of evading prosecution by living quietly.'

If you want to stay more than 3 or 6 months you need to get a visa- almost impossible if you're a wanted felon. And even staying on a tourist visa, being a foreigner you'd stick out like a sore thumb. Hardly a good way to keep a low profile.

Taiko666

Aug 15, 2007, 11:01

Try to use an airport where the x-ray ditector is broken.
It was a small domestic airport in an Asian country and nothing happened as an airport staff assured me, but you come to know how important the airport secrity is.
Some soccer players from South America come to Japan via Europe. It takes more time than via the US, but it is more convenient for them not to waste time for their transit visa.
See your transit cages in the US, and you realise how your govenment sees foreign nationals.
And many thanks for your visa waiver program.

Who is this reply directed to? Presumably the American posters here, most of whom are actually not against fingerprinting.

Yes, the US Government treats foreigners badly at airports.

We non-USA citizens must suffer indignities going through US Immigration. Is that why Japan wants to do the same? Just to copy the USA (again?) Mind you, even the USA doesn't fingerprint residents of the country.

My point on it helping against crime is this example.
A child abuser left DNA on his last crime scene but it took 4 more years and 3 more abused children to catch him because he wasnt on the database. So say someone was murdered in Japan but then in a week the foriegnor left the country never to return even though the police might have their DNA or fingerprints that person will never be caught due to lack of information. Id rather give up my prints and be safer then not. And taking someones prints takes less then 2 minutes. If it was my choice id be taking your DNA.

Then fingerprinting should be mandatory for all people, not just foreigners. It's the Japanese perception that only foreigners commit crime which is the major part of the indignity here.

Taiko666

Aug 15, 2007, 11:08

I don't mind fingerprinting. I had to be fingerprinted here in the US just to open an account at my local Credit Union. I think with the relative ease of traveling around the world it is a good idea.

The difference here is that everybody has to be fingerprinted to get an account. In Japan, it's only foreigners who are deemed a security risk.

8bit.vis

Aug 15, 2007, 11:48

It's not possible to flee 'to Japan with the intent of evading prosecution by living quietly.'
If you want to stay more than 3 or 6 months you need to get a visa- almost impossible if you're a wanted felon. And even staying on a tourist visa, being a foreigner you'd stick out like a sore thumb. Hardly a good way to keep a low profile.
I was thinking more along the lines of falsifying one's papers, which would follow from attempting to flee any country with a criminal record. Fingerprinting vs an interpol database would defeat this. As for sticking out, eg being a foreigner, I don't think that would much matter unless you were some kind of high profile celebrity criminal. The point of hiding in a foreign country is evading domestic police.

pipokun

Aug 15, 2007, 18:57

Who is this reply directed to? Presumably the American posters here, most of whom are actually not against fingerprinting.
Yes, the US Government treats foreigners badly at airports.
We non-USA citizens must suffer indignities going through US Immigration. Is that why Japan wants to do the same? Just to copy the USA (again?) Mind you, even the USA doesn't fingerprint residents of the country.

It was by the UN resolution that Japan introduces anti-terrorist measures.
Ask Debito to sue the UN.

I heard the US will modernise the VWP.
According to a Japanese media, we'll have to register our personal information though the internet before we go there.
Ask Debito to sue the US.

And most importantly, we cannot arrest Kim Jong-il or Osama bin Laden for conspiracy here, for the Japanese penal law is not based on the British/US ones.
Ask Debito to sue Japan.

About the inefficient Heathrow and the horribly expensive tube...
I sincerely ask you to sue your govenment.

Taiko666

Aug 17, 2007, 17:16

It was by the UN resolution that Japan introduces anti-terrorist measures.
Ask Debito to sue the UN.

Fingerprinting foreigners in Japan is not an anti-terrorist measure, it's a political one. Especially since the only terrorist attacks to have occurred in Japan were committed by Japanese.

I heard the US will modernise the VWP.
According to a Japanese media, we'll have to register our personal information though the internet before we go there.
Ask Debito to sue the US.

I think the American system is also terrible. Why does that excuse Japan's new system? And why do you want to copy it if it's so bad?

And most importantly, we cannot arrest Kim Jong-il or Osama bin Laden for conspiracy here, for the Japanese penal law is not based on the British/US ones.
Ask Debito to sue Japan.

Another reason Japan shouldn't get a seat on the UNSC... it doesn't have extradition treaties with its allies.

About the inefficient Heathrow and the horribly expensive tube...
I sincerely ask you to sue your govenment.

I'm glad your complaint against the UK was limited to transport infrastructure. Evidently you couldn't find any issues related to this discussion. That's probably because even though the UK is a major target for terrorists, immigration officials still treat non-UK nationals with respect (unlike the USA and from Nov, Japan.) And they certainly don't fingerprint them, because fingerprinting is discrimitory, insulting and completely useless against hardened terrorists.

( PS tip to get 75% off Tube tickets... buy an Oyster Card, the London equivalent of a Suica Card :-) )

Taiko666

Aug 17, 2007, 17:23

I was thinking more along the lines of falsifying one's papers, which would follow from attempting to flee any country with a criminal record. Fingerprinting vs an interpol database would defeat this. As for sticking out, eg being a foreigner, I don't think that would much matter unless you were some kind of high profile celebrity criminal. The point of hiding in a foreign country is evading domestic police.

I understand what you're saying. But this fingerprinting/Interpol situation has existed for decades. Why didn't anybody suggest fingerprinting all foreigners at all airports a long time ago? Ans - Because it's insulting and discriminatory.

And any criminal who's stupid enough to come to Japan in order to keep his head down would be too stupid to evade capture anywhere :-)

Sukotto

Aug 18, 2007, 00:50

this type of mass fingerprinting stuff is never about your average street criminal.
it's usually about politics.
politics for some "get-tuff" on crime stuff and scapegoating immigrants. easy, powerless targets for politicians who need to make it look like they are doing something.

plus it is also goof for keeping tabs on political dissidents like the infamous Operation (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010306/) Condor (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Herman%20/Condor_Herman.html) the US helped run among fascist dictatorship of South America a couple decades ago. That is, after all, what they mean when the say "security" - spying on dissidents. It's called Newspeak, or Doublespeak.

isn't the US and Brazil doing this too?
It would be ridiculous for someone from a country doing it to complain that another country is.

pipokun

Aug 18, 2007, 19:15

Fingerprinting foreigners in Japan is not an anti-terrorist measure, it's a political one. Especially since the only terrorist attacks to have occurred in Japan were committed by Japanese.
I don't think I can introduce the anti-terrorist measure by myself, so everything the government does is political.
I don't know coming to Tokyo Disney Land with a fake visa like the dearest son of Kim Jong-il is a terror or not, but so far no anti-spy or anti-terrorist law here, so the fingerprint stuff is a small international cooperation which Japan can do.
It would be more efficient if Japan took fingerprints only from North Koreans, but it would make another problem.

I think the American system is also terrible. Why does that excuse Japan's new system? And why do you want to copy it if it's so bad?
Another reason Japan shouldn't get a seat on the UNSC... it doesn't have extradition treaties with its allies.

Don't worry. I know your government will introduce the new ID system and "stop and question, even search" like the J cop. (I read the security roadmap of your country somewhere maybe in Guardian, but sorry I lost the link. Just wait and see what will happen in your country within couples of years.)
I will not be surprised if EU nations would introduce super modernised measures after the US and EU mutually agree on them.
Are you going to stand up for non-EU people when your govenment introduce the similar system?

even though the UK is a major target for terrorists, immigration officials still treat non-UK nationals with respect
If so, I don't know why they don't introduce more staffs in the non-EU lanes or changing the lane from EU passport holders to the non-EU ones soon after they finish the former ones like in Narita. I think it is a bit unfair to compare the Heathlow and Narita, but the more passenger, the more airport tax, right?

Really sorry if the kaizen has alreadly been done and thank you for the Oyster Card.

FrustratedDave

Aug 18, 2007, 20:06

I found this video today:Video: Why Japanese Immigration Will Fingerprint All Foreigners (http://newsonjapan.com/cgi-bin/news/link.cgi?ID=56031)
Did I get this right, permanent residents don't have to provide fringerprints?

Petaris

Aug 19, 2007, 10:15

I thought this (the finger printing and picture taking) until I read this: http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/16/real.id/index.html (nothing to do with Japan and pipokun hinted at it above). It is just getting scary here. :(

Taiko666

Aug 20, 2007, 17:05

Did I get this right, permanent residents don't have to provide fringerprints?

All Permanent Residents will have to give their paw prints, except for "Special Permanent Residents" which basically means the Zainichi (long term resident Koreans.) It was mainly due to the forceful campaigning of this group that fingerprinting on alien registration cards was dropped. Special dispensation has now been given to this group to avoid similar protests. Another example of the ridiculous and offensive selective nature of this law.

Taiko666

Aug 23, 2007, 17:57

Here's an excellent article from the Japan Times (1 year old though)

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20060822zg.html

... which contains this amazing quote from Senior Vice Justice Minister Taro Kono

"Unless somebody can demonstrate to me that Japanese are not treated the same way overseas we will go forward with fingerprinting."

pipokun

Aug 23, 2007, 19:10

[QUOTE]In the meantime, the American Chamber Commerce in Japan has now formed an Immigration Task Force to tackle the issue.[/QUOTE
What an irony...

Jgui

Sep 12, 2007, 08:01

I just registered. I am an American who has visited Japan twice in the past; business in Tokyo then tourist visits to Kyoto on the Shinkasen. Japan is a beautiful country, and I love visiting.
But I hate the people ruling my government now. Bush and Cheney are war criminals. And I hate that I have lost freedoms to these criminals (for example my telephone and emails are now tapped by the US NSA).
I think it is an invasion of privacy for the US is to fingerprint and eye scan visitors to my country. I feel very sorry for visitors to the US who have to submit to fingerprinting and eye scanning; and I believe that foreigners should stop coming to the US until this ridiculous law is changed. Before we were ruled by the criminals Bush and Cheney, only law-breakers in the US were fingerprinted. I do NOT want those war criminals to add my fingerprints to their big database - I do NOT trust them.
But now I just found out that Japan is going to start the same stupid law!!! I have a business trip to Tokyo in October and would like to know when Japan will start the fingerprinting? Will it start on Nov. 1, or has it already started? If it has already started, then I will try to avoid coming to Japan until they get rid of this stupid law.

Taiko666

Sep 20, 2007, 10:42

Hi Jgui, welcome to JREF.

Fingerprinting and mug-shooting at Japanese immigration starts on Nov 27th, so this time you'll be spared the indignity.

Yes, we certainly have Bush and his mob to thank for a lot of the world's current woes. I do feel a black cloud descended on the world when that imbecile took over from Clinton- a complete contrast to the general feeling of hope and reconciliation that was prevalent during the brief happy time between the end of the Cold War and the 'Axis of Evil' hate-speech from Bush.

You make a good point about the danger of having one's prints in a national database- the scope for abuse is very wide. It's even worse in Japan- the police and judiciary are orders of magnitude more incompetent than their US counterparts, so I expect to see many miscarriages of justice arising from misuse of this database.

~Dei~

Sep 20, 2007, 11:12

The world is slowly moving towards fascism and the people are too apathetic to do anything about it.

Glenski

Sep 20, 2007, 11:22

The usual activists (Debito, JapanProbe etc) seem to be completely silent on this issue. Have we all resigned ourselves to be treated even more like criminals?
To answer your February posting, Taiko, here is Debito's blog entry from June with whatever updates it may hold.
http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=454

Ewok85

Sep 20, 2007, 13:31

only law-breakers in the US were fingerprinted

And this is my opinion too - until now only the law-breakers have been fingerprinted. Asking me to give my fingerprint means there is a presumption that I have done something illegal - its treating me as a criminal.

epigene

Sep 20, 2007, 13:58

AFAIK, the US has always fingerprinted its permanent residents (when they apply for immigrant visas).

Taiko666

Sep 20, 2007, 17:43

AFAIK, the US has always fingerprinted its permanent residents (when they apply for immigrant visas).

... but Japan will fingerprint its permanent residents every time they enter the country. For business travellers that could be dozens of times a year. Japan copies the US blindly and then goes the extra mile to inconvenience and humiliate its foreign residents.

pipokun

Sep 20, 2007, 19:11

What happens if I refuse to be fingerprinted?
If you visit the Embassy or Consulate for an interview and refused to have your fingerprints taken, your application will be refused on the basis that it is incomplete. If you later decide to have your fingerprints taken, then your application would be considered without prejudice.
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/visa/tvisa-niv-biofaq.html

This is about the visa requirement, but I've never heard the US said no fingerprint at their airport for short business trips of non-immigrant visa holders.
It is good to see American people here opposing the policy, but I highly doubt the next president would abolish it. Just wait and see.

It is not about the fingerprint, but producing a biometric passport is a bit difficult.
I watched a program that a Japanese company is producing the one for green passport holders living in a country somewhere in the world. They did not say which country, but maybe for Australians?

Sukotto

Sep 20, 2007, 20:13

So we've got three countries doing this now? US, Brazil, and Japan?
(might Brazil only do it to non-citizens from countries who themselves do it to non-citizens?)

On a related privacy note: peaceful, bother-nobody New Zealand has?/had a role in the international spy network via something called ECHELON (http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/sp/index.html) (and their prime minister didn't even know about it.)

Any other countries that might be doing it?
North Korea maybe?

NekoMama7

Sep 22, 2007, 03:04

I think this is going to be in effect as early as next week, if it hasn't already. Here's a video by the Japanese government describing what it is about:
http://nettv.gov-online.go.jp/prg/prg1203.html

I personally have no problem with finger printing, as I'd gone through number of times in the course of US immigration and naturalization processes. I have nothing to hide and it is a different world now. I do have problem with photographing, though. That means putting make up on before landing and stuff. I don't think they'll allow re-shoots. Something dudes may not understand.

My main concern is the immigration lines getting longer. Certain professions, like chefs, may have difficulty having their prints read. If you get stuck, everyone in your line gets stuck.

But really, couldn't they find someone who can really act for the video? I felt like choking that guy after watching the video.

dark_secrester

Sep 22, 2007, 03:17

Good. I believe all countries should use this. Keeps foreign criminals out.
Also, I am British. Say I go to America, commit a crime and jump through to Mexico. They can send my data over and I will get caught at the border.

It is a great way. However, I also disagree with the photographing, but that is because I hate cameras!

Han Chan

Sep 22, 2007, 08:15

this type of mass fingerprinting stuff is never about your average street criminal.
it's usually about politics.
politics for some "get-tuff" on crime stuff and scapegoating immigrants. easy, powerless targets for politicians who need to make it look like they are doing something.
I totally agree. I find that keeping check on criminals is perfectly justified, but trating us all as if we are potential criminals is unfair.

To say that this kind policy of fingerprints of foreigners is fine as long as you have nothing to hide is naive.

In my country a extreme right party wants a DNA with everyone in it. They say that normal citizens should have nothing to fear. I object to beeing treated with suspision even though the idea is to treat "everyone as equally suspect". My point is that it is undignifying. If we are all loosing our freedom and privacy, it will be as if we are all jailed, even though there are no physical wall around us.

Taiko666

Sep 26, 2007, 12:06

I personally have no problem with finger printing, as I'd gone through number of times in the course of US immigration and naturalization processes.
So, it seems like you've believed the hype and have been conditioned into believing that it's ok for people to treat you as a criminal suspect.

I have nothing to hide

... so how much of your liberty / personal dignity are you willing to sacrifice to prove it? For the matter, why should you have to prove it?

and it is a different world now

Terrorism has been around for a long, long time. Consider that in the height of the (partly US-funded) IRA terror campaign, Irish citizens didn't even require a passport to enter the UK, let alone be fingerprinted. Now that the USA has tragically been very much on the receiving end of terrorism, it's infecting the world with a sort of Big Brother mentality... but I really don't think that it will help fight terrorism... nor do I think that's the (whole) intention. It's certainly not the intention in Japan.

There's a great article at about the new law at www.stippy.com (http://www.stippy.com/japan-news-and-media/foreigners-landing-in-japan-to-be-fingerprinted/)

http://www.stippy.com/wp/wp-content/zuploads/2007/09/japan-fingerprint-gaijin.gif

caster51

Sep 26, 2007, 23:25

are there any Japanese who do not like foreign fingerprinting in foreign country ?.
i dont care at all...
I think most Japanese does not care about that at all even though other coutry demands to enter .:blush:
I cooperate with preasure if useful for the safety or something of the country.

Han Chan

Sep 27, 2007, 01:14

http://nettv.gov-online.go.jp/prg/prg1203.html

But really, couldn't they find someone who can really act for the video? I felt like choking that guy after watching the video.
That video is hilarious.

The message in the video is that we should all be happy about these measures because it is a counter-terrorism measure. First of all, none of the mentioned terrorism attacks (9/11 and onwards) could have been prvented through this kind of measure. Secondly, if anything goes in the name of counter-terrorism, then we should also accept to be DNA registered, or maybe even having computer id chips inserted into our body.

This is the full text of the relevant document:
Outline of New Immigration Procedures: Requirements for the Provision of Personal
Information
August 2007
Immigration Bureau, Ministry of Justice
1. General Outline
On 24th May 2006, a new law amending parts of the Immigration Control and
Refugee Recognition Act was promulgated and is due to enter into force by November 23,
2007.
The revised law contains new provisions for the establishment of a framework for
preventative measures against acts of terrorism. As part of this framework, a new
anti-terrorism measure is to be implemented, which requires the submission of personal
identification information at immigration control.
Under the new immigration procedures, when foreign nationals are applying for
landing, fingerprints and a facial photograph will be taken after which an immigration
control officer shall conduct an examination for landing.
In the event of any foreign national, who is required by the new law to be
fingerprinted and photographed, refusing to submit to these new provisions, that person will
not be permitted to enter Japan, and will be required to leave the country.
2. Affected persons
All foreign nationals entering Japan will be subject to the new provisions, apart from
the following:
(1) Special permanent residents
(2) Persons under 16 years of age
(3) Those persons performing activities which fall under the status of residence for
‘Diplomat’ or ‘Official’
(4) Those persons who have been invited by the head of any national administrative
organization
(5) Those persons who are prescribed by the Ministry of Justice ordinance as equivalent to
either (3) or (4)
3. New Immigration Procedures
Applicants will be required to follow the following procedures.
① A person wishing to enter Japan must submit his/her passport to
the immigration control officer.
② Once the immigration control officer has explained the procedures that are
to be followed, the person wishing to enter Japan will be asked to place the
index fingers of both hands on a digital fingerprint reader. The fingerprint
information will be read and stored electromagnetically.
③ A facial photograph will then be taken, using the camera located at
the top of the digital fingerprint reader.
④ The immigration control officer will then conduct a short interview.
⑤ On completion of the above procedures, the person wishing to enter Japan
will receive his/her passport from the immigration control

Han Chan

Sep 27, 2007, 01:20

I now wrote to my Member of Palaiment. I hope that Denmark and posibly EU will formally complain about these new measures. I really hope that these humiliating measures will newer be initiated. Therefor it is my hope that there will be an outcry from the rest of the world and that Japanese Embassies will have to receive formal complaints. I hope that Japan will react to diplomatic pressure, before 23rd November.

I hope that the diplomatic game of tit for tat will not start over this issue will be avoided, but maybe the procedures for Japanese citizens entering for example Europe will change. After all there have been several japanese terrorist from Aum and the Red Army in the past.

So if we all start treating each other with suspicion from now on, then we can waste our time and energy on haressing common people, while the real terrorists (who are often "homegrown") will not be affected.

Pachipro

Sep 27, 2007, 02:12

“When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.” – Thomas Jefferson

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and nations will accept the New World Order." David Rockefeller

“If you think of yourselves as helpless and ineffectual, it is certain that you will create a despotic government to be your master. The wise despot…maintains among his subjects a popular sense that they are helpless and ineffectual.” – Frank Herbert
The fingerprinting and photographing of "visitors" to Japan is but another step that the "sheeple" of the world are all too willing to comply with! "I feel safer", they say.

HA! What a joke but, as fingerprinting and photographing has been implemented in the US and elsewhere, Japan is closly following and sniffing the butt of the US and we should all be happy that Japan is being protected! As many "conspiracy" web sites and books have said, all the world's people will have their DNA, fingerprints, and photograph in a data base by the year 2012 and people will be photographed wherever they go. Don't believe me? Just look at England where the average person is photographed more than 6 times a day while he/she is out and it is slowly happening in the US and Japan in the interest of "safety". HA!

The debate should not be whether there is a conspiracy as to whether the US allowed or knew the 911 attacks, as well as the governments of other attacks around the world, would occur, but what was the result. This is one result among many others that have slowly eroded the freedoms and rights of the citizens of the US and Europe and now Japan and slowly the world.

Does anyone in their right mind actually believe that the 600+ page Patriot Act was written on the evening and day after the 911 attack? But, like magic, it was presented to the president within a day or two after the attack. Do you actually believe your senator or congressmen/woman read it in two days? HA! But they all signed on to it and agreed to it as they did the day after Pearl Harbor. Think about it! It was written well in advance!

For those that say they have nothing to hide and it's ok, I guess they would not mind the government/police busting into their house at any moment without a warrant and asking for their computer hard drive or to search their home in the guise of "looking for terrorists/terrorist activity to keep you safe". How naive and sheepish people have become. They will believe anything as long as the government and the news says it is "in the interest of safety." Sadly that is the case in the US and Japan and probably Europe today and the vast majority of people do not even see it happening or even realize that it is happening.

Airport security is a joke and gives the people a "sense" of security as any terrorist who really wants to hijack a plane or plant a bomb or blow one up or terrorize a city will and no one or any law or any regulation can stop them.

If the US was seriously interested in cracking down on terrorisim and protecting the US, they would have sealed the boarders and put the military on both boarders on Sept 12, 2001, but it still has not happened and the boarders are still wide open to anyone who wants to enter at will. So who is naive now? Also, the recent law that states only a couple of Muslim looking people can be searched and profiled at airports for any particular plane should also make one think. What a joke.

Sorry for the rant, but so many people are blind today. As it is said, sad is the man who has sight but refuses to see.