Oda Nobunaga's Unrealized Dream: Domination of Asia

[Mikawa Ossan]

Recently I read in a book about warlords in the warring states period of Japanese history something about Oda Nobunaga. I found it (among many other things) very interesting.

The gist of it was that Oda Nobunaga planned to, upon unification of Japan, invade and conquer pretty much all of Asia. What was really interesting to me was that the description of the territory he was planning to conquer very much resembled the Far East Economic Prosperity Zone from WWII.

Of course this means that when Hideyoshi invaded Korea, he was merely following in Nobunaga's footsteps, but more importantly, it is very likely that had he been sucessful in conquering Korea, that would have only been the first stepping stone in a much longer campaign (assuming of course that he was thinking in the same lines as Nobunaga before his untimely death).

Any thoughts? I just found it of immense interest!

[Glenn]

I guess Tokugawa really was the odd-one-out out of the three of them then, eh? :D Well, the Satsuma clan did take Okinawa in 1609, so maybe he wanted to go the other way: down to Taiwan and SE Asia.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Naw, if Ieyasu had wanted to attack China, he would have mobilized the entire country, I'm sure. It seems like he was content with consolidating his gains and trying to preserve it for as long as possible.

[Kei Kusanagi]

...wow way to piece together the puzzle...

[Mitsuo]

I wouldn't doubt it. He was once called the fool of Owari. What better way to show every one that he was anything but a fool.

[Glenn]

Or "saru," at least according to 功名が辻

[Mikawa Ossan]

Well, it only makes sense that the man had enemies!

I think he was anything but a fool, however. As I like to say, we probably never become friends if we ever met, but he had all the qualities necessary to be a conqueror. He was clever, open to new ideas, very rational, and ruthless.

I read that with Azuchi castle, he was trying to elevate himself into a living god. This was because he noticed that the temples he quashed put up huge fights because of their religion. He wanted his soldiers to fight with the same ferocity, so he tried to make himself the object of their worship.

[Oyakata]

Recently I read in a book about warlords in the warring states period of Japanese history something about Oda Nobunaga. I found it (among many other things) very interesting.
The gist of it was that Oda Nobunaga planned to, upon unification of Japan, invade and conquer pretty much all of Asia. What was really interesting to me was that the description of the territory he was planning to conquer very much resembled the Far East Economic Prosperity Zone from WWII.

Hello Ossan!
I'm quite a fan of Nobunaga's and would be interesting in learning more about this. Can you tell us more about this book? In particular I'm interested in how the book's author(s) determined that Nobunaga was planning to invade Asia - what were their sources for this?
Thanks!
Oyakata
www.OdaNobunaga.com

[senseiman]

I remember reading, maybe in Sansom's History of Japan, that Hideyoshi was intent on conquering China via Korea. At that point, he was getting a little senile and had no idea how large China was in comparison to Japan and the impossibility of his project.

Kind of an idiotic thing to do, hard to beleive that as recently as 70 years ago Japanese leaders were still trying to do the same thing!

[godppgo]

I wouldn't say Nobunaga's plan of conquering China was too out of the line. Manchurians and Mongols were small tribes and they might even had less man power than Japan. However, they did managed to conquer China and ruled China for hundreds of year.

[Oyakata]

I wouldn't say Nobunaga's plan of conquering China was too out of the line. Manchurians and Mongols were small tribes and they might even had less man power than Japan. However, they did managed to conquer China and ruled China for hundreds of year.
How sure are we that there was indeed such a plan held by Nobunaga to enter Asia? I'd be very interested to find out what is the background behind this notion.
Does anyone have any references to this?
Thanks,
Oyakata
www.OdaNobunaga.com

[pipokun]

I've never heard of the Nobunaga's ambition, isn't it "chugoku district" in Japan? Actually Nobunaga ordered Hideyoshi to rule after conquering there.

One of the reasons that the Tokugawa Shougnate's sakoku foriegn policy was to prevent former Ming people from agitating the shogunate to save the collapsed Ming, guys like Zheng Chenggong.
It might be interesting what if the shogunate had been Hideyoshi's one then, Nurhaci and succesors vs. Hideyoshi. I bet Hideyoshi would have gladly accepted the Zheng's offer.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

I've never heard of the Nobunaga's ambition, isn't it "chugoku district" in Japan? Actually Nobunaga ordered Hideyoshi to rule after conquering there.

According to the letter of Luis Frois
"Nobunaga thought about an overseas expedition after having achieved world unification"

Although it does not understand truth

http://blog.livedoor.jp/nobunaga_1534/

[Oyakata]

According to the letter of Luis Frois
"Nobunaga thought about an overseas expedition after having achieved world unification"
Although it does not understand truth
http://blog.livedoor.jp/nobunaga_1534/
長島さん、
こんにちは。貴重の情報、ありがとうございます。
このフロイスの手紙もう少し詳しく教えていただけます か？何年の、どのような背景の物でしょうか？
長島さんのお考えでは、その手紙がどうも信長のことを 理解していないようですが、やはり、信長にアジア進出 という願望がなかった、といことですよね。
素朴な質問で申し訳ございません。どうかよろしくお願 いします。
「お館」
Oyakata
www.OdaNobunaga.com

[Mikawa Ossan]

Hello Ossan!
I'm quite a fan of Nobunaga's and would be interesting in learning more about this. Can you tell us more about this book? In particular I'm interested in how the book's author(s) determined that Nobunaga was planning to invade Asia - what were their sources for this?
It was this book.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4408102164/249-6845600-5136304?v=glance&n=465392

[Mikawa Ossan]

I'll go one further and quote the book. BTW, it was only a short passage in the book leading up to another point (about Nobunaga trying to make himself into a god).
信長の野望は、そればかりではなかった。スペインやポルトガル、 イギリス、オランダの東アジア進出に対抗するため、朝 鮮半島から中国を制し、ベトナムからフィリピンまでも 支配したいという遠大な計画を胸に秘めていたのである 。

[Oyakata]

Thanks, Ossan!
That looks like a fun book. As you say those kind of books are usually not really specific on where they get their information from. It's too bad. Sometimes they contain information that you'd love to find out more about but don't know where to start looking.
in any event I'd be really interested to know how anyone could know that 計画を胸に秘めていたのである 。 :-)
Thanks again for posting the link to the book as well.
Oyakata

[Yoshida Shoin]

That seems highly unlikely. Nobunaga barely controlled the center of Japan at the time of his death. He still had many huge clans to fight and lots of territory to conquer. If he had any designs on the mainland, they were probably just dreams, not serious plans. Hideyoshi was only able to invade the mainland because he decided to make peace with the rival clans instead of fighting. I don't think Nobunaga had any plans for peace.

[GodEmperorLeto]

That seems highly unlikely. Nobunaga barely controlled the center of Japan at the time of his death. He still had many huge clans to fight and lots of territory to conquer.... I don't think Nobunaga had any plans for peace.
I read (and I wish I could remember where) that Oda Nobunaga had the intention of unifying Japan, then deposing the Emperor and turning Japan into a Catholic and Western nation. He did support the Church and fought tooth-and-nail against Buddhism throughout his domain. Some Westerners think that he may have been a visionary, realizing that if the "Western barbarians" could reach Japan, then Japan could someday reach them if he could just modernize them. As for the Japanese... well, if all this is true, then no wonder he is always shown as a demonic evildoer in all of those anime.

EDIT: As a side note, whenever playing Europa Universalis II (http://www.strategyfirst.com/en/games/redir/?iGameID=9), I always do my damndest to modernize Japan and catch up with the Europeans by 1600, doing everything that the actual Japanese didn't do. I've kicked the Dutch out of the Indies, colonized California before the Spanish, vassalized China, and even landed troops in France to help the monarchists against Napoleon. How's that for alternate history?!

[Mikawa Ossan]

If what I have read about Oda wanting to make himself into an object of worship is correct, I find it difficult to believe that he had the intention of making Japan Catholic after he united it. I find it more likely that he was using the Catholic church as a source of valuable information more than anything else.

[ricecake]

Some of you here might take it as a grain of salt.

There is this loosely common belief in both Korea and China political circles,Japan have had desire on China or Asia continental for some times with Korea peninsula serves as a " springboard ".

[GodEmperorLeto]

There is this loosely common belief in both Korea and China political circles,Japan have had desire on China or Asia continental for some times with Korea peninsula serves as a " springboard ".
I don't think so. Until the Meiji Restoration (with the exception of a few assaults on the southern Korean coast during the Sengoku period), the Japanese have been very insular and uninterested in political affairs abroad. Even during more peaceful Shogunates, they've always seemed to turn inward in search of some sort of sublime inner perfection as a society. Of course, this perfection only really benefitted the samurai class.

[ricecake]

Hmmmm.... Have you heard of Injim War between Korea and Hideoyoshi's Japan lasted 7 years until his death finally ended the devastation of war torn Korea peninsula inadvertently crippled Ming financially ?

The undefeatable Yi Shun Sin was the Korean commander of the infamous Turtle Ships in this war.

[Yoshida Shoin]

Make Japan Catholic? Are you serious. Manga are not history books. Nobunaga was interested in foreign places and people, therefore interested in Catholocism. He saw it as a potential tool to counter the power of Buddhism. But he never did anything with it. He wasn't even Catholic. The missionaries tried to convert him but he wasn't having it.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Make Japan Catholic? Are you serious. Manga are not history books.
They obviously are not, Herodotus. I said that some Western historians postulate that perhaps he intended to convert at some point because 1) he supported it so heavily and 2) it would have politically tied him to several Western powers. I mentioned his depiction as a demon in anime because it is tied to historical theories. Popular Japanese culture got the idea from somewhere.
Are you serious.
This should end with a question mark (?).
Have you heard of Injim War between Korea and Hideoyoshi's Japan lasted 7 years until his death finally ended the devastation of war torn Korea peninsula inadvertently crippled Ming financially ?
I've heard of the war. I didn't realize it was so devastating to Korea itself. I was always under the impression that it was a rather half-hearted attempt in the first place.
The undefeatable Yi Shun Sin was the Korean commander of the infamous Turtle Ships in this war.
I've heard he is the "George Washington" of the Korean people, and he blockaded the Japanese strongpoints on the southern end of the peninsula, then surrounded their army in an effort to starve them out.

[ricecake]

I've heard of the war.I didn't realize it was so devastating to Korea itself.I was always under the impression that it was a rather half-hearted attempt in the first place.

I've heard he is the "George Washington" of the Korean people, and he blockaded the Japanese strongpoints on the southern end of the peninsula, then surrounded their army in an effort to starve them out.



Kyoto's Mimizuka Monument enshrines " ears and noses " of 38,000 Korean civilians slaughtered during Injim War of 1592-1598.

Yi Shun Sin is reverred as national hero in S Korea,his statues are display through out the nation.

[caster51]

38,000 Korean civilians slaughtered during Injim War of 1592-1598.

you mean korean soldiers?

[Oyakata]

I read (and I wish I could remember where) that Oda Nobunaga had the intention of....
In general, I always take the point of view that it's pretty dicey to analyze what is a historical person's intention. Unless we have primary sources, it's basically conjecture and interpretation. Conjecture and interpretation can be a lot of fun in a "what if" kind of discussion. But the problem is when it becomes the basis for further conclusions - or worse, arguments & disagreements.

I don't think any of us can really say - or disagree with someone else who says - what Nobunaga's intentions for Asia were. So far in this thread we basically have seen a causal reference to Frois describing what he say as Nobunaga's intent - but that's not very convincing.
As for the Japanese... well, if all this is true, then no wonder he is always shown as a demonic evildoer in all of those anime.
I'm not sure how 'popular' this supposedly 'popular perception' of Nobunaga is. You basically see this evil bad guy portfolio in a fwe computer games and anime shows/movies, as GodEmperorLeto refers to. In general - and certainly in serious history - Nobunaga is not portrayed in that kind of light.

Oyakata
www.odanobunaga.com

[caster51]

http://www.satoshi-nitta.com/nobunaga.htm
however I think the origin of japanese culture was made at edo era because of national isolation
Then, Yasuke stopped him. Yasuke was a black slave presented to Nobunaga as an offering from Louice Floyce.

http://www.iiclo.or.jp/100books/1946/htm/050main.htm

[GodEmperorLeto]

In general, I always take the point of view that it's pretty dicey to analyze what is a historical person's intention. Unless we have primary sources, it's basically conjecture and interpretation.... But the problem is when it becomes the basis for further conclusions - or worse, arguments & disagreements.
This is one of the reasons Alexander the Great is so enigmatic.

I don't think any of us can really say - or disagree with someone else who says - what Nobunaga's intentions for Asia were.
Well, he spearheaded military reform, for one thing. Especially along more Western lines. The use of muskets, massed volleys, and other firearms techniques were not only adopted from the Europeans, but in some areas greatly improved upon (like waxed paper covers allowing their matchlock muskets to fire in the rain). Oda Nobunaga's armies in the field wouldn't just outnumber, but probably also outfight and outmanuever the combined armies of the English Civil War, around the same time period.

If this doesn't encourage some that he intended to modernize Japan, I'm not sure what will. However, nobody can really say what he intended for Asia or any of his other neighbors. I, personally, think he wanted to modernize Japan and jump into the global milieu with the Europeans. I figure he thought there was no reason Japan couldn't be doing all the travel, trade, and exploration they were.

Then again, this isn't my area of expertise, so much of the information I have about the Sengoku Jidai is mostly broad generalizations with only a few finer details.

You basically see this evil bad guy portfolio in a fwe computer games and anime shows/movies, as GodEmperorLeto refers to. In general - and certainly in serious history - Nobunaga is not portrayed in that kind of light.
You can see how he is popularly viewed even through a popular poem (which I'll probably botch):

Oda Nobunaga says, "If the bird doesn't sing, I'll kill it."
Toyotomi Hideyoshi says, "If the bird doesn't sing, I'll make it."
Tokugawa Ieyasu says, "If the bird doesn't sing, I'll wait until it sings."

Anyway, most of what I know about him is through Western historians, and there are almost no English translations of the Japanese accounts of the Sengoku Jidai. It's easier to find translated copies of Linear B tablets from 1200 BC than them.

however I think the origin of japanese culture was made at edo era because of national isolation
Interesting that you mention that. I'd argue that the concepts of bushido and wa became much more ingrained into the Japanese mindset because of the Tokugawa shogunate.

[Yoshida Shoin]

Leto & Oyakata - If you're interested in reading some direct translations of Nobunaga's writings, you can check out this book. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/9074822223/qid=1152124043/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-4786408-5398439?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

I believe its the only book in English written about him.

Nobunaga was probably looking to modernize Japan in some aspects. However, he died way before any of these plans could have been seriously thought about. However, I still strongly doubt he would have made the country Catholic unless he could have been God or the Pope.

[pipokun]

Nobunaga did not intended to abolish Buddhism in Japan, but he just wanted depoliticization of some Buddhism monks, though the outcome was harsh.
Some historians say that people before the Edo had enjoyed freedom than the one in the Edo period. It is partly true that you could have freedom to be a Nobunaga or Hideyoshi, however you also had freedom to be killed...

[GodEmperorLeto]

Nobunaga did not intended to abolish Buddhism in Japan, but he just wanted depoliticization of some Buddhism monks, though the outcome was harsh.
Hence the whole Ikko and Honganji rebellions, and the huge wars he fought against the sohei.

Some historians say that people before the Edo had enjoyed freedom than the one in the Edo period. It is partly true that you could have freedom to be a Nobunaga or Hideyoshi, however you also had freedom to be killed...
Ah, this is a recurrent theme throughout human history. Freedom amidst chaos. The "perfect freedom" Thomas Hobbes envisioned in his Leviathan is a nasty, brutish, and short life. But, yes, I've heard a great deal about how it was definitely a swashbuckling time in Japan's history--a veritable heroic age, something like the American Wild West. It is very easy to romanticize such an era, and lose sight of the mucky reality of it all.

Leto & Oyakata - If you're interested in reading some direct translations of Nobunaga's writings, you can check out this book.
Awesome. I'll have to remember it. $70-$80 is very steep for me, especially when I have to shell out $100+ for Mommsen's Romische Geschicte this fall semester. But it's definitely going on my "To-Eventually-Buy" list.

[yamada]

At the beginning of 16th century, people in England started to immigrate to the 'new continent'.

[GodEmperorLeto]

At the beginning of 16th century, people in England started to immigrate to the 'new continent'.
I'm not sure I understand what this has to do with Oda Nobunaga.

[yamada]

Well, it is one of my interesting things that the time when Hideyoshi started to 'conquer the peninsula' corresponded to the time I said.

[Maciamo]

I have only found this thread now. I wonder what Oda Nobunaga knew about the rest of Asia, and whether he had any idea of the population or military power of China and India at the time, among others. It would have been impossible for any country (even European) to conquer all Asia in the 16th century, because no country had sufficiently superior weapons. The Spaniards managed to conquer most of Central and South America because they had guns, cannons, horses, steel swords and armours and fought against almost naked tribesmen with bows. Asia was completely different as it had populous and well organised societies with long military traditions.

[yamada]

They could get information about Asia and Europe, though it was not enough, by crews shipping from China.

[caster51]

and missionaries

and Ayutthaya ?
アユタヤ日本人町は14世紀頃に始まったと思われるが、 日本の戦国時代には主君を失った浪人が流れてくるよう になり、急激な膨張がみられるようになった
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamada_Nagamasa

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A6%E3%82%BF%E3%83%A4%E6%97%A5%E6%9 C%AC%E4%BA%BA%E7%94%BA
http://www.joyphoto.com/japanese/abroad/2001angkor/ayutthaya/nihon.html

[Yoshida Shoin]

Japans navy was garbage. That's why Hideyoshi lost Korea (besides his lack of interest). Japan had pirates that were good at naval warfare. They plundered ports in Korea and China for years. But the samurai were probably too proud to work with common ciminals or seek out their advice.
On the other side of the globe though, England made use of pirates to destroy the Spanish armada. Francis Drake was not much more than a pirate until he became employed by the Queen.