んとする

[KrazyKat]

「んとする」　I don't understand this construction.　何を意味するか分からないんです。
たとえば　　これらの作業を通じて自分が書かんとする テーマの参考文献がリスト・アップされます。

この「ん」は「む」から転じたんでしょうか

よろしくお願いします

[Glenn]

Yes, it comes from む.

Just for your information, 書こう and 書かん both come from 書かむ. What happened was in some dialects, the "n" disappeared, leaving just 書かう, and as you've seen before, "au" became "ou." In other dialects, the "u" disappeared, leaving a final nasal, and the only one of those in Japanese is ん.

[KrazyKat]

面白い情報をありがとうGlennさん。

[Tensai Bakabon]

「んとする」　I don't understand this construction.　何を意味するか分からないんです。
たとえば　　これらの作業を通じて自分が書かんとする テーマの参考文献がリスト・アップされます。
この「ん」は「む」から転じたんでしょうか
よろしくお願いします
It's not "n to suru", it is "kakan to suru". "Kakan" is just "kakanai". :-)

[Glenn]

I highly doubt that.

[JimmySeal]

Glenn is correct. Take it away, koujien:
むとす
（推量の助動詞「む」に格助詞「と」とサ変動詞「す」 のついたもの。「んとす」とも）まさに…しようとする 。…するつもりだ。

[J44xm]

I just have one question, and it might be a dumb one, I warn you now: what is 書かむ (かかむ?)? I can't find it in WWWJDIC. Is it a standard verb? What am I missing here?

[Glenn]

It's an old volitional form. The modern standard equivalent is 書こう.

[J44xm]

Ah, I see. Many thanks, Glenn.

[Elizabeth]

It's an old volitional form. The modern standard equivalent is 書こう.It is a little confusing. I didn't realize 書かんとする was ever a dialect, either, and always just assumed it was an older form still used in 論文 and such. :?

[Glenn]

I assume it's older, too, because I think the standardization pretty much stamped it out as a "legit" form.

[JimmySeal]

んとす is not a dialect and it is alive and well as part of modern Japanese. 書かんとす(る), as the dictionary entry shows, can mean 書こうとする or 書くつもりだ depending on the situation. I'd say that in KrazyKat's example it's probably closer to the latter.

I forget whether the む->ん onbin is older than the む->う one or if it's the other way around, but both emerged centuries ago. Standardizing the writing of 書かう as 書こう probably happened sometime within the last 100 years.

[Glenn]

Yeah, I suppose the dictionary entry would imply that, wouldn't it?

I'd be surprised to see it as written 書こう before 1947, although I suppose it's not impossible, but 現代仮名遣い was standardized in 1947.

[Elizabeth]

んとす is not a dialect and it is alive and well as part of modern Japanese. 書かんとす(る), as the dictionary entry shows, can mean 書こうとする or 書くつもりだ depending on the situation. I'd say that in KrazyKat's example it's probably closer to the latter.
I would imagine so as well although I sent the translation to some friends both ways on a trial basis.


I forget whether the む->ん onbin is older than the む->う one or if it's the other way around, but both emerged centuries ago. Standardizing the writing of 書かう as 書こう probably happened sometime within the last 100 years.
Does this bear at all also on the archaic 'm' still found in certain romanizations ? Nihombashi, shimbun for instance that are almost as conventional today if not more so than the 'n' transliteration.

[Glenn]

I don't think so. That's a phonological rule that states that ん becomes assimilated to the place of articulation of the consonant that follows it. So it becomes "m" before "b" and "p," "n" before "t" and "d" (and I believe "s" and "z" too, but I'll have to check to be absolutely certain about that one), "ng" before "k" and "g," etc. The old む was a conjugation of the verb, just like (よ)う is nowadays.

[Elizabeth]

I don't think so. That's a phonological rule that states that ん becomes assimilated to the place of articulation of the consonant that follows it. So it becomes "m" before "b" and "p," "n" before "t" and "d" (and I believe "s" and "z" too, but I'll have to check to be absolutely certain about that one), "ng" before "k" and "g," etc. The old む was a conjugation of the verb, just like (よ)う is nowadays.
OK, thanks Glenn ! I couldn't think of any logical connection with the verb form either....Although it makes sense in terms of proununciation, those were just the two examples I had ever seen a replacement of the m for n.

[JimmySeal]

Glenn's right again. ん is pronounced /m/ before bilabials, /ng/　before gutturals and /n/ before everything else. む is an auxuliary verb that over time began to emerge as ん and う, but since 書かう should actually be pronounced 書こう, it was eventually standardized to be written that way.

I was going to say that む->ん also exists as part of the expression 言わんばかり as in:
彼は我々が悪いと言わんばかりの態度だった。
He gestured as if to say we were to blame.

But it turns out that that is actually the negation auxiliary verb ない/ぬ/ん

[Glenn]

Be that as it may, it's an expression I didn't know, so I'm glad you brought it up. :biggrin::cool:

[Elizabeth]

I didn't either and would have put the translation with an actual gesture in the affirmative as this :

彼は我々が悪いと言いたかったかのように身振りをした。