Divorce rate soon to jump

[nurizeko]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article361817.ece

Japan braced for divorce epidemic as 'salarymen' hang up their suits



It should be a cause for national celebration. The baby boomers who made up the first wave of Japan's corporate samurai will begin hanging up their dark blue suits next year, and retiring en masse to the suburbs, easing company payrolls and injecting billions in "grey" yen into the economy. The looming retirement of about 6.8 million male baby boomers is something to make everyone happy.

Everyone, it seems, except their wives, many of whom are dreading the prospect of living in close quarters with virtual strangers. "I wanted him to keep working but I've accepted now he's going to come home," says Hatae Ishizaki, whose 59-year-old architect husband is due to punch his last card in April next year. "I'm just going to spend more time out of the house. I'd divorce him, but it's too much trouble at my age."

Not every woman is opting to stick it out. Some media commentators are warning of a deluge of divorces after 2007, once the reality of life with former "salarymen" who have nurtured their careers much more carefully than their marriages begins to sink in.

Japan has some of the longest hours of unpaid overtime in the world. Salarymen generally spend more time in the company of male work colleagues than with their families. In their scarce hours out of the office, husbands are poor home-makers - a recent survey found that men in Japan did just four hours housework a week, far fewer than their counterparts elsewhere. Among the cruel spousal monickers for wrung-out, retired husbands with minimal life skills are nure ochiba (wet leaves) and sodai gomi (big rubbish). "It's like having another child around the house," says Mrs Ishizaki.

Such domestic friction is one factor behind Japan's growing divorce rate, which has climbed steadily for almost two decades, despite a recent decline in break-ups among long-term married couples. The statistical blip has led some to speculate that divorces may have peaked, but the journalist Nobuko Ishino has a darker explanation - many wives are simply biding their time.

Next year, a change in the law will mean that workers' pensions can be split between spouses. Ms Ishino, who has written a series of articles on Japan's baby boomers, is one of several commentators predicting that thousands of unhappy women are secretly planning to ditch their husbands once they have financial independence.

"Men should prepare themselves for a shock," she told a recent conference. "Women's dissatisfaction lies at the bottom of their mind like magma. Husbands don't understand they are despised and disliked by their wives."

One of Japan's top-selling weekly magazines, Shukan Bunshun, recently peered inside hundreds of baby-boomer households and was shocked to find that many middle-aged women were practising their farewell speeches.

"To my husband: Don't suddenly get friendly with me after all these years of leaving me alone now that you have retired from your company. It's too late now!" said one 55-year-old woman who contributed to the magazine's survey.

Professor Shigeru Kashima of Kyoritsu Women's University is one of several academics in the magazine who offers advice to men. Professor Kashima advises retired baby boomers to "move their wives to the centre of attention" and "compliment them on their physical attributes". If that doesn't work, get used to single life, he warns.

Its stuff like this i find disturbing about Japan, but then again, if you neglect your wife of course she's going to hate you, its just a shame that the Japanese way of doing things and social norms mean they didnt bother divorcing when they hated each other to begin with....but DAMN japanese women can be heartless and calculating......i feel sorry for them i guess because of the neglect but then again.....the women would probably have bitched at their husbands for not working enough if he was at home more often.

Ahwell, it will be a wake-up call for Japan to be sure.

[kirei_na_me]

Its stuff like this i find disturbing about Japan, but then again, if you neglect your wife of course she's going to hate you,

That's right. That's what's happened to me, so I know how it is.

its just a shame that the Japanese way of doing things and social norms mean they didnt bother divorcing when they hated each other to begin with

Yes, it is a shame. Sometimes that Japanese pride is too much to bear.

[Mike Cash]

if you neglect your wife of course she's going to hate you

That's not a one-way street. The wives do their equal share neglecting their husbands.

[pipokun]

the divorce rate of original ruling samurai class in the Edo was much higher, more than 10%, than now.
The current corporate samurai should grow top-knots on their head.

Yes, I agree that Japanese women are more calculating than optimistic generalisaiton. Be careful.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

the divorce rate of original ruling samurai class in the Edo was much higher, more than 10%, than now.
The current corporate samurai should grow top-knots on their head.
Yes, I agree that Japanese women are more calculating than optimistic generalisaiton. Be careful.

The edo period is a completely different time and situation back then to what it is now- different cirumstances.
Some say that japan never changes, but it has become a lot more westernised since edo and this makes it a different situation in many respects- life back in the edo period was a heck of a lot more controlling for both men and women back then in society.
Marriage was hardly about love back then but about climbing the social ladder whenever you could, making money, keeping up appearances but at the same time managing not to step out of line but stay in your place and know it etc- ok, so maybe it sounds like the same old japan...But it was a lot more extreme in the edo period in these respects, and much less in the way of western thinking and freedoms.
The fact that staying away from your family if you were of the samurai class, was compulsary for men, to go to edo/tokyo every year for long periods of time, probably caused the break-up of family life all too often than what most relationships could cope with...

I think japan needs to think about its ideals in society- on one half, japan encourages good family life, on the other hand, it makes it almost imposible to have a good family life, good job and good working life all in one...So many couples choose just one or the other.

There may be a huge increase in divorces, but it may turn out to be good on the other hand in some respects- many men will now have large sums of money to spend now that they no longer have to save up any more, so will spend more on entertainment and family life, relieving some of the stresses that will have built up over their relationships. Children will have grown up and left home, so couples can concentrate more of their time and energy on each other.
I think many women are dreading that their husbands are just going to come home, kick off their shoes and put on their slippers and continue to expect their wives to keep on running around them and putting up with them. But what about the men's point of view in all this? We hardly hear about them. Many men may be feeling the same way...

I think there's a good chance that many relationships that have fallen sour over the last couple of decades may improve if the men can properly adjust to family life and spend time and energy on each other rather than on their own interests. And i am sure many couples would rather do this and have a good relationship together, than to just stop trying and have a failed relationship because they no longer see their partners perspectives and feelings on things.
Many of the men probably feel that once they have no job, they have nothing to work towards for...But they should realise, they now have a good relationship with good comunication to work towards now.

[nurizeko]

That's not a one-way street. The wives do their equal share neglecting their husbands.

Dont get me wrong Mike, i agree 100%, my sympathies go to the salary men working hard to bring home for ingrateful wives.

Both are needed to make it work, but she should (though social taboos aside) have confronted him when they had the chance and talk about it.

Bah, japan is strange like this, nobody wants to talk about anything, then they blame each other for their own problems (my girlfriend has blamed me for losing her own money amongst other things and kicked me out for it....i know).

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Dont get me wrong Mike, i agree 100%, my sympathies go to the salary men working hard to bring home for ingrateful wives.
Both are needed to make it work, but she should (though social taboos aside) have confronted him when they had the chance and talk about it.
Bah, japan is strange like this, nobody wants to talk about anything, then they blame each other for their own problems (my girlfriend has blamed me for losing her own money amongst other things and kicked me out for it....i know).

I agree the women need to try and make things work, just as much as the men do- it takes two to tango, so to speak.
I know many couples should have brought up their issues with each other long ago, despite social taboo's and all, but thats just it- as long as there are all these social expectations on couples, people will never break the cycle.
People cannot simply say to an old japanese person "oh, you should have just quit the happy hard-working, subdued wife image and sat down and spoken with your husband years ago if you had all these issues with him"...Because you cannot change those decisions that have been made in the past.

Communication, open-mindedness and personal space and time together are all important things for a relationship to work and thrive, but many japanese that are now nearing retirement seem to be lacking in at least two of those things. Maybe they just feel that after 20, even 40 years, of little "quality" time together, they cannot find much that they have in common together anymore?
I dunno :souka: .

[pipokun]

I am wondering if the dankai, the post-war babyboomers, and younger generation are the same...
Sense of crisis among older generation may create the current boom of choi waru oyaji, a bit bad old guys, who are fashion/hobby/leisure conscious.

Both of them, critically increased divorce rate and choi waru oyaji, are created by the media, I suppose.
The correct answer will be yours in next 10yrs.

[Revenant]

During the time of childrearing, one can actually sympathize somewhat with the lonely stressful life that a woman might have to make. However, a lot of wives whose children have grown-up send their husband off to work with a small amount of money for lunch (even as little as 300 yen), then go on with their day to watch TV dramas, have lunch/cake & coffee with their friends, go shopping, go to movies, take less-than-cheap English lessons, and even travel abroad with their friends, and they do all that on their husbands salary (I've actually taught a few of these older women). After all that, they complain that they must prepare dinner for him when he comes home late from working, and just about him in general.

From the distance anyways, my sympathies more lie with the husband, the poor sod who was simply expected to work overtime, to bring home the salary, and trusted the wife with the finances

[Mars Man]

Oh there is so much to be said here. I read it last night, but held back from jumping in then. Oh me, oh my. . . where could one start?

What has been said already seems to me to be fair enough, although perhaps a little more data from the overall spectrum would be helpful in getting anywhere close to a realistic picture of what has been going down.

Now it just crossed my imagination that kirei_na_me and I could be considered 'soul-mates' in a way, in that we could be said (if I have all my information correct) to represent opposing sides in the matter of 'is it more due to the male side? or the female side? split straight down the middle? or what?'.

I will input what little information I have on the matter little by little, yet for the moment, will say that here in Japan, the root causes lie in the male society of the past that has been so slow at coming around. I mean, what do you think the term　奥さん (okusan) suggests, other than one who is assigned to the back room of the house? :okashii:

[Mars Man]

. . .and just one more thing. . .

That's not a one-way street. The wives do their equal share neglecting their husbands.

Let's go out for a drink at one of those little side-street outdoor ramen stands, and pour our hearts out some cold, foggy, rainy night.

[Mike Cash]

. . .and just one more thing. . .
Let's go out for a drink at one of those little side-street outdoor ramen stands, and pour our hearts out some cold, foggy, rainy night.

Good idea.

You know, it seems that the typical approach of foreigners to this is to automatically label Japanese men villians and commiserate with the poor down-trodden Japanese women. At least, that seems to be the typical approach of foreigners without firsthand experience of being married to Japanese women, anyway.

釣った魚にエサをやらない

[Airth]

Mars Man, as I understand it 奥 (oku) implies the heart of the family, rather than being stuck in the back room. If only the men would take a little more time to understand how things tick in the heart, then perhaps we wouldn't be facing this 'crisis'.

[Mike Cash]

Thanks for illustrating my point.

[Crackpot]

Ive been following this thread with interest. I think the who is to blame for unhappy marriage in Japan question cant be answered easily- marriage here would appear to me be a smooth transition (to the benefit of both sexes) through the elsewhere angst of finding the right partner experienced for example in the US, and the trade-off is a smooth decent into diffidence towards retirement. I see employee-employer relationships here in a similar way - in return for suffering silently whatever your boss throws at you, you get a secure job.


Ive noticed that there seems to be more Japanese women married to foreign men than Japanese men to foreign women. Is that statistically significant?

[nurizeko]

I think some Japanese woman sub-conciously yearn for a man to show a bit of dominance and not let them get away with murder.

Nah, just a silly on the spot hypothesis.

I still feel more sympathy for the men, all round, but both partners talking is the only real solution, if there can even be one.

I think japanese woman use the neglect card as a simple excuse, they probably didnt marry for love, or real love, but they got a home and their husbands income, so they accepted a loveless marriage in return for a roof and money, and the bonus is the husband isnt around much to pay for their home and expenses.

Then when crunch time comes and they relise their husband will be comming home soon, they relise the honeymoon period is over, and they may actually have to get used to sharing a home in matrimony like normal couples.


I think its a good thing mroe japanese women these days are growing up and learning to rely on their own incomes, it will save these regrettable state of marriages better in the future.

[Airth]

Glad to oblige, Mike. Let me balance things up; if only the women would take a bit of time to appreciate the pressures society places on their husbands, then perhaps we wouldn't be facing this 'crisis'.

[pipokun]

...
Ive noticed that there seems to be more Japanese women married to foreign men than Japanese men to foreign women. Is that statistically significant?
J men & foreign women　28,326
J women & foreign men 7,937

J men & J women 761,875

[Crackpot]

Then when crunch time comes and they relise their husband will be comming home soon, they relise the honeymoon period is over, and they may actually have to get used to sharing a home in matrimony like normal couples.


Id say its also lot easier for a Japanese couple to do a divorce at crunch time when most likely both of their parents have passed away and the shame factor is lessened as too the burden of taking care of them.

[Crackpot]

J men & foreign women　28,326
J women & foreign men 7,937
J men & J women 761,875

Wow! there is certainly a danger in jumping to conclusions. Thank you for putting that straight Pipokun and surprising at least me. Can you reveal your source?

I am now thinking that most of the Jmen & foreign women couples reside abroad and few in Japan.

[Mike Cash]

Your problem may have stemmed from thinking "foreign women" = "white women", perhaps.

[Crackpot]

thats a fair point. I wouldnt be able to identify a Japanese-Korean or Japanese-chinese couple - unless maybe they were having a row

[kirei_na_me]

Your problem may have stemmed from thinking "foreign women" = "white women", perhaps.

I think so too.

Those numbers could definitely not be true if we're talking Japanese men/caucasian women.

I think you all have a good discussion going here. I've seen some pretty subjective posts on this in the past. You know, the whole Japanese man is evil, Japanese woman is innocent and sweet.

I've seen plenty of Japanese women in action, so I know how they are. Spending all the money, while cackling and laughing about how they don't care if their husbands are gone or not, just as long as they keep bringing in that money. I think its pretty awful.

It's a funny thing about me, though. Here I was, at the beginning of my marriage(to a Japanese man), swearing I would never turn into one of those unappealing J-wives. I genuinely missed my husband dreadfully when he was gone on a business trip, or even when he was late coming home from work. I preferred him to take care of the money instead of doing it myself. After having a baby(ies) I still wanted affection(to put it in a good way). I actually cared about him and communicating with him and being with him. I didn't understand how the Japanese women I knew could be the way they were to their husbands...

Well, fast forward to now. I say that I'm pretty much at the J-wife stage. He can be late coming home from work, or go on a business trip, and I don't really care. Everything has changed except for the money. He still takes care of the money, but that leaves me with no allowance. I'm to the point of begging for money just to go put gas in my car. So, the one thing I can't do, is take off by myself and go shopping and dine with friends whenever I want, or anything else like that. The rest is probably the same. Left with a husband who doesn't communicate in any way, no matter how hard I've tried.

Mine is a long story, with details I won't bore you all with, but I can just see how things might be falling apart.

The Japanese value marriage, but it seems like they only value it because of their issues with pride. They never want to admit defeat. I say if getting divorced means making yourself happy, then go for it. No one should have to be miserable, even for something as crazy as saving face.

[DoctorP]

Well, fast forward to now. I say that I'm pretty much at the J-wife stage. He can be late coming home from work, or go on a business trip, and I don't really care. Everything has changed except for the money. He still takes care of the money, but that leaves me with no allowance. I'm to the point of begging for money just to go put gas in my car. So, the one thing I can't do, is take off by myself and go shopping and dine with friends whenever I want, or anything else like that. The rest is probably the same. Left with a husband who doesn't communicate in any way, no matter how hard I've tried.

I believe this to be true no matter what nationality your spouse is! This happens to many people all over the world. It can't be pegged on any one race.



The Japanese value marriage, but it seems like they only value it because of their issues with pride. They never want to admit defeat. I say if getting divorced means making yourself happy, then go for it. No one should have to be miserable, even for something as crazy as saving face.


Just to let you all know...Kirei and I are planning our divorces in sync with one another so that we can marry each other and run off to Tahiti!:p

[nurizeko]

Haha! can i come?, i'll stay out your way when you two decide to "start dating again" that soon after the divorces, i'll just tag along on the flight then bugger off, maybe showing up now and again to share some drinks at the local beach-bar. :cool: :blush:

[Crackpot]

..which happens to be an excellent place for a divorce...

http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~cookproj/archive/gen_rem_tahiti/ht034.html

marriage before arriving in Tahiti might be advised unless the customs have changed.

[DoctorP]

It was merely a joke people...Kirei wouldn't have anything to do with the likes of me! I could only hope for someone that nice!

Now...back on topic!

[Mars Man]

Mars Man, as I understand it 奥 (oku) implies the heart of the family, rather than being stuck in the back room. If only the men would take a little more time to understand how things tick in the heart, then perhaps we wouldn't be facing this 'crisis'.

Regarding the Japanese, you could be correct on that, however I have heard from Japanese sources, that it is as I have stated.

I do agree that trying hard to understand the basics of the two sexes is important in relationships; of course that subject has come up before.

I'm still listening in. :-)

[pipokun]

If I were a J woman, I'd never renounce my most fundamental right to control our household income, no matter where he comes from.

[ArmandV]

This is not news to me. A couple of years ago, one of our tour guides (Japanese lady) told us that J-women build their own social lives while hubby is at work. When hubby retires, he is now hanging around home and the wife's lifestyle is crimped. So she would file for divorce rather than having to hang around with the old boy.

It might be a good idea for hubby to have a hobby or something to keep him busy so that wifey can have her space. Either that, or they should both have some sort of mutual interest in something that they can both pursue together.

[pipokun]

Wow! there is certainly a danger in jumping to conclusions. Thank you for putting that straight Pipokun and surprising at least me. Can you reveal your source?
I am now thinking that most of the Jmen & foreign women couples reside abroad and few in Japan.

Forgot posting the source (http://www.mhlw.go.jp/toukei/saikin/hw/jinkou/suii00/marr2.html).

[Mike Cash]

If I were a J woman, I'd never renounce my most fundamental right to control our household income, no matter where he comes from.

That old chestnut about Japanese women being wonderful at controlling the household finances is purely a load of crap too.

[Mike Cash]

I think so too.

I've seen plenty of Japanese women in action, so I know how they are. Spending all the money, while cackling and laughing about how they don't care if their husbands are gone or not, just as long as they keep bringing in that money. I think its pretty awful.



Hence my earlier mention of the common expression 釣った魚にエサをやらない (You don't keep on giving bait to fish you've already caught). I should have also mentioned a more common expression as applies to husbands: 亭主は元気で留守がいい (Husbands should be healthy and away from home).

[Mars Man]

Interesting Mike. Yes, the second (newer) one I've heard--the other one was new to me.

[kirei_na_me]

It was merely a joke people...Kirei wouldn't have anything to do with the likes of me! I could only hope for someone that nice!
Now...back on topic!

You mean the Tahiti trip is off?! :(

[DoctorP]

You mean the Tahiti trip is off?! :(


shhhh! I just didn't want others tagging along!

[nurizeko]

Awww... :(

[Mike Cash]

Interesting Mike. Yes, the second (newer) one I've heard--the other one was new to me.

Interestingly, though, even though Japanese husbands often get treated like one, they don't use the word 食事券 (meal ticket) to refer to them. Terms like 粗大ごみ (large item of trash)　and ゴキブリ亭主 (cockroach husband)　do exist, however.

[epigene]

Interestingly, though, even though Japanese husbands often get treated like one, they don't use the word 食事券 (meal ticket) to refer to them. Terms like 粗大ごみ (large item of trash)　and ゴキブリ亭主 (cockroach husband)　do exist, however.
Ah, yes, and don't forget 濡れ落ち葉　:blush:

FYI, my husband fortunately doesn't fall in any of these categories... :bluush:

Forgot to add definition for "nureochiba": :relief:
A "wet leaf"
This is an unflattering metaphor for a retired man who clings to his wife like a wet fallen leaf sticks to the sidewalk.
--From the Japan Picture Dictionary
http://www8.plala.or.jp/y-naka/jiten-n.html

[Mars Man]

Wow....and lol at the same time !! I least I've never had those titles slung at me. I just need a little (lot?) less antagonism just to spite.

Oh lucky woman you are epigene san--not to say that there are not many lucky women in all parts of Japan or the world.


Thanks for that extra input there Mike, epigene ! MM

Oh...and by the way there was a write-up in today's THE DAILY YOMIURI about the government planning to dip into some funds to spend some money on trying to deal with the lack of birth--seems they should work on marriage and relationship building first....

[kirei_na_me]

seems they should work on marriage and relationship building first....

I would agree.

[Ewok85]

Makes me wonder a little, when my Dad retired just over a year ago he was put on house cleaning duties. I've never seen someone sweep a floor so diligently!
(bit of a cleaning freak like me)

[budd]

is he the oldest sibling? he has a brother and a younger sister, i remember that much, but i have forgotten the hierarchy
i know he has at least one son, does the son have his name?
i know of course, but just asking. it would explain the reasoning behind the money anyway
really sorry to hear the news.

[nurizeko]

I'm just amazed theres a country of women who only now are contemplating divorce, i guess from my bias western opinion, if you dont love someone, you should have dealt with the issue years ago, not doing this and only worrying now he will stop working smacks of leeching off of his salary for her own selfish benefit to me.

But then again we have to remember japan isnt a country big on speaking about feelings and stuff.