What happened to the flag of my country?

[Kakulin]

I saw that another user, EscaFlowne, has the Puerto Rico flag. Just check out any of his posts (http://www.jref.com/forum/search.php?searchid=385663) for confirmation. I am using the United States flag in the meantime seeing as I am a US citizen. But I want the Puerto Rican flag.
http://www.flagsonline.it/Bandiere/bangrandi/puertorico.jpg

[Maciamo]

Puerto Rico is not a sovereign state, but a territory of the USA.

Thomas insisted on deleting non-sovereign states a few months ago.

[Mycernius]

That explains where my England flag went:okashii:

[Maciamo]

That explains where my England flag went:okashii:

Yes. As for Scotland, Wales, the Vatican, Gibraltar, Greenland, Guadeloupe, Martinique, and many others. Thomas decided to get rid of even of the EU flag (although the EU is more of a country than the Vatican, England or Puerto Rico as its own parliament, currency, passports and embassies).

[Minty]

Maciamo, did you change my flag for me?

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, did you change my flag for me?

Yes, because you live in France, not Australia, and the flag is for the country of residence.

[changedonrequest]

Yes. As for Scotland, Wales, the Vatican, Gibraltar, Greenland, Guadeloupe, Martinique, and many others. Thomas decided to get rid of even of the EU flag (although the EU is more of a country than the Vatican, England or Puerto Rico as its own parliament, currency, passports and embassies).

Just out of curiosity what then is considered to be a "sovereign" state? According to this linkhttp://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html there are 271 nations, dependent areas, and other entities in the world.

One would expect that to the people that reside in the countries arbitrarily "deleted" this site or the admin, is in essence, slapping them in the face wouldn't you think?!:okashii:

Is it that big of a deal what flags people have under their names? I mean come on now, isnt diversity one of the things that makes this site what it is?

You or someone here will probably delete this but I must say that excluding a persons choice of flag under their name is pretty narrow minded dont you think?

[bossel]

You or someone here will probably delete this but I must say that excluding a persons choice of flag under their name is pretty narrow minded dont you think?
Narrow-minded? Don't know. It depends on what it's supposed to represent & that's up to the forum owner.
As a work-around people who want to have another flag could upload theirs as an avatar.

[ArmandV]

If I had my druthers, I'd have the old "Don't tread on me" flag from early U.S. history.

[Kakulin]

I took a screenshot today of one of EscaFlowne's post and as you can see he still has the PR flag:
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/7433/prflag3uk.th.jpg (http://img335.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prflag3uk.jpg)

[Maciamo]

I took a screenshot today of one of EscaFlowne's post and as you can see he still has the PR flag:

This is because he chose it when it was still allowed. I have now changed it to the US flag.

[changedonrequest]

This is because he chose it when it was still allowed. I have now changed it to the US flag.

Well I see you changed mine as well......since you ignored my question in the first place I will ask it a bit differently this time.

What is the point of, in effect, censoring people's flags?

Why not explain the rationale behind this if there is any? Oh yes and btw you have my location wrong.

I took a screenshot today of one of EscaFlowne's post and as you can see he still has the PR flag:

You do realize that because you brought this up he went and changed it. So in effect your actions have quite possibly upset or p.o'd another member, kind of like "If I can't have it nobody can...." kind of attitude don't you think.

So now Mr moderator here has to go through and make sure everybody is conforming to some archaic rule about flags.

It depends on what it's supposed to represent & that's up to the forum owner.
As a work-around people who want to have another flag could upload theirs as an avatar.

See that's the thing, they (admin et al) have had the chance to plainly explain the reasoning but have not done so at all. What conclusions can people that read this thread come to? I agree that the "owner" might have a reason for it, but why not explain the reason, instead of arbitrarily censoring peoples profiles? Also like you said people could get around it if they so choose to but why does it make that much of a difference in the first place? That is where the narrow-mindedness comes from, an unwillingness to be open and share the reasons for this childish action by the "admin" of the board and yes imo, it is childish to act as just without telling the members here the reasons why they made the decision to do this.

[Maciamo]

Hachiro, if you are not happy about the flag rule, please complain to Thomas not me. He made the rule, and he also censored my own flag (EU flag).

[thomas]

Puerto Rico is not a sovereign state, but a territory of the USA.

Thomas insisted on deleting non-sovereign states a few months ago.

Ho-ho-hold it, just a little rectification. :-)

I have never insisted on deleting souvereign or non-sovereign states, but supranational or international organisations such as the U.N., the EU, ASEAN, etc. I felt quite fine with allowing England, Scottland, Wales, Hongkong and Macau, because they further determine a member's country of residence instead of obscuring it as in case of the EU flag.

If it were up to me, I'd restore the so-called non-sovereign countries in a wink.

[Maciamo]

I believe that you told me explicitly that the EU flag was not ok because it was not a sovereign state. You said the same thing about the flags of Flanders and Wallonia (Belgian states); not sovereign states. So I don't see why it would be ok to allow the flags of England, Scotland and Wales, but not Wallonia and Flanders, which have different languages and separate governments.

Btw, I also preferred to have more choice for the locations. In fact, I even proposed to have flags for each US state, but you refused. I don't see the logic in having flags for US territory (e.g. Puerto Rico, Guam...) but not States, which are bigger and more independent.

[Mycernius]

Can I have my England flag back then?:-)

[nurizeko]

Me and Myc, if anything alike, a proud to be british and loyal, but that doesnt take away our actual national heritage and identity, i am first and formost Scottish, he is English, we share a national government, not a nationality.

I think, despite my opposition to the EU, if Mac wants to considor himself part of a fictional super-nation, thats his choice to, aswell as agreeing individual US states and stuff are a good idea.

Is someone telling you Thomas to only use sovreign independent countries?, i always thought it was up to a website admin alone what flags he has....

Ahwell.

[thomas]

Me and Myc, if anything alike, a proud to be british and loyal, but that doesnt take away our actual national heritage and identity, i am first and formost Scottish, he is English, we share a national government, not a nationality.

I think, despite my opposition to the EU, if Mac wants to considor himself part of a fictional super-nation, thats his choice to, aswell as agreeing individual US states and stuff are a good idea.
Is someone telling you Thomas to only use sovreign independent countries?, i always thought it was up to a website admin alone what flags he has....
Ahwell.

The basic idea was that it might be interesting to know a user's country of residence as it might have an impact on understanding the ideas they express in discussions. I just thought that allowing supranational organisations somehow obliterated that very intention.

All my other concerns are of more technical nature: if we allowed U.S. federal states, Canadian, German, Italian, Mexican, etc. members may ask for flags of their federal states, territories, regions and prefectures as well. What a nightmare (from an admin's point of view).
:relief:

But hey, whatever makes our members happy... :-)

[changedonrequest]

First off thank you for all your replies, I am be in the minority here but I still do not understand the reasons why individual flags are not allowed.

Maciamo I guess you are just trying to just follow the "guidlines" so it isnt your problem per say..., thank you fortaking the time to answer.

Is it that big of a deal to the Admin here what "flags: people use for their locations?

People make their posts no matter what their location may be at, does it make that big of a difference which they choose?

Mr. Thomas, I would appreciate an answer to this question please.......is it really that big of a deal to you?

[thomas]

People make their posts no matter what their location may be at, does it make that big of a difference which they choose?
Mr. Thomas, I would appreciate an answer to this question please.......is it really that big of a deal to you?

Mr Hachiro, I will give you a frank answer: no, I care less and less about it. I am contemplating about deleting that user field to save my time. If members really want to indicate their location, there's a separate field that allows them to do exactly that.

[DoctorP]

I think that it is important to have the flag reflect the persons actual location. Thomas is right when he says that it helps when reading particular posts so that you may understand more a persons point of view.

With that said, I also agree that if you want to display a flag that is not currently available, then load it as your avatar. If Thomas begins allowing every type of flag things will get rather complicated.

[Kakulin]

My apologies to EscaFlowne for making him lose the PR flag. It wasn't intentional.

Also I would like to clear up that even though Puerto Rico is an US territory that doesn't mean that I'm living in the USA. I am living in the Caribbean.

But anyways, when I created this thread I did it because I was curious as to how EscaFlowne managed to choose the PR flag. I never intended it as a complain and I have not problems with having to use the US flag because I'm a US citizen and proud of it.

[Maciamo]

I am against deleting flags altogether. That is one of the most interesting profile options.

Thomas, if allowing some states or regions (Puerto Rico, Scotland, St Pierre et Miquelon, Hong Kong...) for which we already had the flags was not a problem, then why were you against my adding the flags of Wallonia and Flanders (in addition to, not instead that of Belgium), which I would have added by myself ?

[nurizeko]

Lets just have the UN flag..come on, you all know the UN wants to control the world....

:blush:

[Uncle Frank]

use a flag of your choice as your avatar? There are tons of flag avatar(animated or non-animated) to get off the internet for free. I'll leave my state flag up for a day or two as an example of what is out there for free. I just typed in "flag avatar" under GOOGLE and got several sites to chose from.

Uncle Frank

:cool:

[Mike Cash]

If the intention is merely to show a person's physical location on the globe, then perhaps it would be best to indicate that with text, rather than with flags.

I know there are people these days for whom national identity means nothing, who consider themselves "citizens of the world", and who see flags as nothing more than quaint anachronisms whose only appropriate use is as decorative accessories.

But there are still those in the world who identify strongly with the flag of their home, for whom the symbolism still means something, for whom sight of their flag properly displayed causes the heart to swell with pride and a tear to come to the eye. Disrespect their flag? You may as well slap their mothers. The level of personal insult wouldn't be terribly different.

The flag graphics may be small, but this issue is a large one.

[bossel]

With that said, I also agree that if you want to display a flag that is not currently available, then load it as your avatar. If Thomas begins allowing every type of flag things will get rather complicated.
Yeah, we would end up with thousands & thousands of flags to choose from. Better to go to a specialised website & choose one to upload as your avatar.

[Maciamo]

Yeah, we would end up with thousands & thousands of flags to choose from. Better to go to a specialised website & choose one to upload as your avatar.

Or what we could do is have two categories of location flag. The first one for the sovereign state, and the other one for the regional state, territory or overseas dependency, but only for the countries with more than "x" (to determien) members. This way, one could choose the US flag AND their state/territory flag. Or we just do like for Eupedia and attach flags together so that if you choose, say "Portugal", the EU flag is automatically next to it. So when someones chooses "California", the US flag would be automatically next to it. This way there is only one option to choose and flags are both national and regional. In Europe, we would need 3 levels for federal countries though (e.g. EU > Germany > Bavaria).

[nurizeko]

But the US flag represents an actual nation, the EU flag represents a fun project for politicians bored with their own nations government.


Anyhow moving on to the point i actually wanted to make, to back up Mike's statement about national flags, if the soccer world cup is anything to go by (i hate calling it soccer!...i do it just for you my American cousins!) then flags are still VERY much powerful national symbols. The flag represents the entire nation, it represents the land, the people, the ideals and heartbeat of the nation, it represents the history, the present and the future, that is why a stupid peice of coloured fabric means something to people. Because Old glory or whatever might not mean much to a saudi or thai, but to an American, it may mean many things, it might mean everything or just a small thing, but to every American old glory means something.

If the flag tags are just purely for location, why not just use the location text bit and do away with flags?.

[changedonrequest]

Mr Hachiro, I will give you a frank answer: no, I care less and less about it. I am contemplating about deleting that user field to save my time. If members really want to indicate their location, there's a separate field that allows them to do exactly that.
Sir,
Thank you for answering me. To me at least it seems to be a rather inane point and not that big of a deal.
I apologize if I made a mountain out of a mole hill. At least to me that is what it was after all.

but to every American old glory means something.

Yes that is probably true, but to other people throughout the world the US flag is a symbol of tyranny and opression, so what ever each poster or persons flag of choice may be it is safe to assume that certain flags bring about different emotions from each person.

I had hoped to raise the point that discriminating against one persons choice of "allegiance" should not be dictated or determined by the whim if the people that administer this message board. For such a board as this one is.

If I had my druthers there would be no flags what so ever, and would leave it to the member to make the choice to use their flag or symbol of choice within the limits of an avatar.

Thanks for listening.....have a good night/day where ever you may be.

[heliobacter]

EU! EU!
i enjoy living in a fictional super-nation!
that austrian flag's so darn ugly :blush:

edit:

But the US flag represents an actual nation, the EU flag represents a fun project for politicians bored with their own nations government ...

omg! go and get some history books dude :souka:

don't want to start a discussion here, but it's certainly more than that. it brings us peace for 60 years now. keep that in mind.

of course the EU has many issues and a big image problem, but don't play down it's achievements.

ez

[DoctorP]

Or what we could do is have two categories of location flag. The first one for the sovereign state, and the other one for the regional state, territory or overseas dependency, but only for the countries with more than "x" (to determien) members. This way, one could choose the US flag AND their state/territory flag. Or we just do like for Eupedia and attach flags together so that if you choose, say "Portugal", the EU flag is automatically next to it. So when someones chooses "California", the US flag would be automatically next to it. This way there is only one option to choose and flags are both national and regional. In Europe, we would need 3 levels for federal countries though (e.g. EU > Germany > Bavaria).
This would actually be a pretty good idea.

But the US flag represents an actual nation, the EU flag represents a fun project for politicians bored with their own nations government.

I fell out of my chair when I read this! OMG please keep it civil people!

[Mike Cash]

EU! EU!
it brings us peace for 60 years now. keep that in mind.


The presence of U.S. troops had nothing to do with Europe putting aside joyfully continuing to pursue its centuries-old pastime of conniving to slit each other's throats?

[heliobacter]

The presence of U.S. troops had nothing to do with Europe putting aside joyfully continuing to pursue its centuries-old pastime of conniving to slit each other's throats?

back then, the EU hasn't even existed.

i'm talking about the project, the will to collaborate and to put all those senseless feuds aside.

the project, that started as a trade agreement for war-critical ressources and evolved to what it is today (doesn't matter if one likes it or not)

for me IT IS the attempt to get over the past.

OF COURSE the U.S. intervention was the only possibility, but i don't get the point why to compare the problems europe had in 1945 with the problems the european union has today?

and btw, throat-slitting isn't an european speciality...

[JimmySeal]

OK. So if Puerto Rico doesn't have a flag, why do Hong Kong and Macau have flags? The choice of which places get flags and which don't seems to have no strong logic behind it. Maine and Nebraska are clearly subdivisions of a country, but many would argue that Puerto Rico is a nation in its own right, even if it is subject to some administrative controls of the US government. What exactly are the administrators trying to accomplish by taking away the P.R. flag? Puerto Rico is a country with its own characteristics. It has two official languages whereas the USA has one de-facto official language. So if the objective is to cast light on where people's perspectives are coming from, it would make sense to allow people to show that they are from Puerto Rico.

[ArmandV]

Puerto Rico is a country with its own characteristics.


No, it is U.S. territory. It can become a state if the Congress gets off its butts.

[Kakulin]

OK. So if Puerto Rico doesn't have a flag, why do Hong Kong and Macau have flags? The choice of which places get flags and which don't seems to have no strong logic behind it. Maine and Nebraska are clearly subdivisions of a country, but many would argue that Puerto Rico is a nation in its own right, even if it is subject to some administrative controls of the US government. What exactly are the administrators trying to accomplish by taking away the P.R. flag? Puerto Rico is a country with its own characteristics. It has two official languages whereas the USA has one de-facto official language. So if the objective is to cast light on where people's perspectives are coming from, it would make sense to allow people to show that they are from Puerto Rico.

Also I want to add that P.R. competes in the Olympics under it's own flag and with it's own teams. We don't team up with the USA like the 50 states do. We compete against them. The same goes for Miss Universe and all other beauty contests. Etc. etc.

[Mike Cash]

back then, the EU hasn't even existed.


Then word your thoughts more carefully.

You made it sound as though the EU made 60 years of peace possible. When in fact it was decades of peace that made the EU possible.

[Mike Cash]

No, it is U.S. territory. It can become a state if the Congress gets off its butts.

I seem to recall the people of Puerto Rico a few years ago elected to remain in their current status and not seek statehood.

Don't blame Congress. They can't force statehood on a territory/protectorate. The people of the area have to desire it and petition Congress for it. So far, that hasn't happened with Puerto Rico.

[Maciamo]

Puerto Rico is a country with its own characteristics. It has two official languages whereas the USA has one de-facto official language. So if the objective is to cast light on where people's perspectives are coming from, it would make sense to allow people to show that they are from Puerto Rico.

You know I could say the same about states in Belgium. Flanders is Dutch speaking, Wallonia is French and German speaking, Brussels is French and Dutch speakin with English as a kind of lingua franca... Yet, there is only one flag for Belgium. Puerto Rico doesn't even have a parliament. Belgium has 7 (including the EU parliament, otherwise 6).

[Maciamo]

You made it sound as though the EU made 60 years of peace possible. When in fact it was decades of peace that made the EU possible.

How could we really tell ? Hasn't the EU grown up during the Cold War ? Yet old foes are now EU members too. Maybe it's difficult for an American to grasp that the Cold War wasn't so "cold", when they lived so far away from the capitalist-communsit border (the Iron Curtain).

[heliobacter]

Then word your thoughts more carefully.
You made it sound as though the EU made 60 years of peace possible. When in fact it was decades of peace that made the EU possible.
you're right.
what i wanted to say was, that the european union is a product of europe's constructive collaboration during the last 60 years. and all its predecessors made the life possible, that people in europe are living today.

[ArmandV]

I seem to recall the people of Puerto Rico a few years ago elected to remain in their current status and not seek statehood.
Don't blame Congress. They can't force statehood on a territory/protectorate. The people of the area have to desire it and petition Congress for it. So far, that hasn't happened with Puerto Rico.

You're right, I forgot about that part. I found this little goodie:

"In December 1998, the pro-Statehood government of Puerto Rico held another voter plebiscite on statehood. Puerto Rico痴 voters rejected statehood. This is the third rejection of statehood in the last seven years.

In January 2000, President Clinton proposed a fourth statehood vote in Puerto Rico."

I read that Puerto Ricans are about 40-40% split on the issue currently.

[DoctorP]

PR is on the same footing as Guam. Why would they want to become a state? They have all of the benefits without any of the burdens!

[nurizeko]

EU-philes like to make it out as if the EU made Europe everything it is today, wrong.

The people of Europe made it was today, following the US example, that trade and economy is a better "battlefield" then rolling over your sons with tank-tracks crushing their skulls into the dirt.

The EU didnt make Europe peaceful, 2 horrible disgusting world wars in relative quick succession that robbed Europeans of their lives, even the survivors not having any peace, lead to 60 years peace, that and you know, the cold war stand-off, you less likely to start another continental power-struggle with the red terror poised to take Europe, simply put, we united against a common enemy.

And living closer to the Iron curtain just made it more real for us, but there definately wasnt any love between the two blocs, lots of fear suspicion, and a sense of invasion and doom looming over head.

The EU is the result of Europeans replacing war with trade and the general modern worlds insistance on protecting national sovreignties, not the other way round.
The EU still has a purpouse, but unfortunately too often its hijacked by people who, as shown on this thread, want to ruin all its good work with some stupid ideal of super-nation, and anyone with half a brain knows that wars are either thought for money, religion, or freedom, 3 basic reasons for war.

The last one will be a problem for Europe if it ever so much as attempts to take national sovreignty into a super-nation.

Anyhow, BACK ON TOPIC :O :blush: (sumimasen!) i reckon we could have a avatar gallery on ther forum full of flags and stuff, and lose the little flag icons, if people really wanna display their location, they got the text bit and a flag avatar in that case.

[Mike Cash]

How could we really tell ? Hasn't the EU grown up during the Cold War ? Yet old foes are now EU members too. Maybe it's difficult for an American to grasp that the Cold War wasn't so "cold", when they lived so far away from the capitalist-communsit border (the Iron Curtain).

Then substitute "lack of open hostilities" for the word "peace".

While we American children of the Cold War days didn't have to live with the possibility of waves and waves of tanks and troops suddenly spilling into our country, we were sitting on nuclear bullseyes and did worry about somebody deciding to put Mutually Assured Destruction to the test.

[Kinsao]

Wow. What a long debate. O_o

I would like to have an England flag rather than UK, simply because I live in England so I feel that more accurately reflects my place of residence; England is after all a different place from Scotland, Ireland and Wales. =P But I don't feel that strongly about it... As someone said, there is always the 'Location' field. :p

[Maciamo]

Wow. What a long debate. O_o
I would like to have an England flag rather than UK, simply because I live in England so I feel that more accurately reflects my place of residence; England is after all a different place from Scotland, Ireland and Wales. =P But I don't feel that strongly about it... As someone said, there is always the 'Location' field. :p
If Thomas agrees, I am in favour of restoring all the flags we had and adding new ones too. I also like accuracy. I like flags in general (not just mine :okashii: ) and I think that having regional/state flags too would be a good way to learn about new flags as well. :-) Here is a list of regional flags for Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Region_(EU)).

[nurizeko]

I think flags are interesting to, what they represent, wh ya nation chose it, the history behind the flag.

Plus lots of pretty colours. :p

[Minty]

Yes, because you live in France, not Australia, and the flag is for the country of residence.


Well I would appreciate it if you inform me first before you do that. I know the flag in this forum indicates the place you live, but I have lived far longer in Australia than in France. My nationality is Australian, the flag confuses some people thinking you are a native of your flag, and sometimes it brings misunderstanding. :bluush:

I actually prefer my nationality as my flag over my location, but I am not extremely strong about my opinion on this.:haihai:

[ArmandV]

How could we really tell ? Hasn't the EU grown up during the Cold War ? Yet old foes are now EU members too. Maybe it's difficult for an American to grasp that the Cold War wasn't so "cold", when they lived so far away from the capitalist-communsit border (the Iron Curtain).

You never lived through the "duck and cover" days like some of us American geezers did. I am old enough, ahem, to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis as it was happening.

[thomas]

If Thomas agrees, I am in favour of restoring all the flags we had and adding new ones too. I also like accuracy. I like flags in general (not just mine :okashii: ) and I think that having regional/state flags too would be a good way to learn about new flags as well.

Sorry for not responding earlier. I have a bad cold and try to avoid my PC ATM. :atchoo:

I fully agree to the above suggestion.

[Kakulin]

Since you two agree then... it is settled. Now when are we going to see the flag's comeback?

[Sensuikan San]

You know I could say the same about states in Belgium. Flanders is Dutch speaking, Wallonia is French and German speaking, Brussels is French and Dutch speakin with English as a kind of lingua franca... Yet, there is only one flag for Belgium. Puerto Rico doesn't even have a parliament. Belgium has 7 (including the EU parliament, otherwise 6).

You have no idea as to just how much I sympathise with anyone who has to suffer seven parliaments!

ジョン:(

[Maciamo]

You have no idea as to just how much I sympathise with anyone who has to suffer seven parliaments!
ジョン:(

Yeah, well, people only have 4 at a time (EU, National, Region & Community), depending on where they live. If you live and work in different Regions and Communities, you might end up with 1 or 2 more... :blush: But you can't have all 7 directlt concerning you ! Great ! :D

[Mycernius]

I'm happy, I've got my England flag back:yeahh: :happy:

[Maciamo]

Btw, I have already restored a few non-sovereign states' flags and I am in the process of adding new ones.

[Sensuikan San]

Yeah, well, people only have 4 at a time (EU, National, Region & Community), depending on where they live. If you live and work in different Regions and Communities, you might end up with 1 or 2 more... :blush: But you can't have all 7 directlt concerning you ! Great ! :D
Phew!
Glad to see that your surfeit of politicians is not so bad as I thought!
(In Canada I suppose the situation is the same .... I have to put up with a Provincial government as well as a Federal one, similiar to the U.S. and Australian example).
But my other question is ....
"Can I have a British Columbia flag ... ? Pleeeaaase?":blush: :blush: :blush: :bow:
ジョン

[Kinsao]

England flag is back?! Oh good! ~goes off to change~

I don't mind that much either way, but... I like to pick the England flag where it's available, because... that's where I live. :p

[Maciamo]

(In Canada I suppose the situation is the same .... I have to put up with a Provincial government as well as a Federal one, similiar to the U.S. and Australian example).
Eh, what are you saying. I was only talking about states (with a parliament and laws). There are also provincial and even communal governments in Belgium. So it's really like you have to deal with 4 to 6 parliament and 6 to 8 governments whereever you live. At least you get better chances at a career in politics in Belgium. :D

Will try to add Canadian and US state flags.:p