What is your opinion of Kamikaze pilots?

[yukio_michael]

Most people are familiar with Kamikaze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze) (神風) pilots. Probably one of the earliest memories in my study of the history of Japan is of a group of Japanese Kamikaze pilots bowing in a row. On their headbands, as is my understanding were two kanji, representing what would be translated to Sudden Victory...

Kamikaze as many people know, is made up of two kanji, 神 (kami)---which is character meaning something representing god, the spiritual, --and 風 (kaze), meaning wind... together it is most often translated as Divine Wind.

This opperation was not in any way associated with Pearl Harbor, in fact, Kamikaze pilots were not active until well after the battle of Midway (1942), an event which caused the Japanese to loose momentum in the Pacific theatre, ---I think it was the nature in part (maybe someone can qualify this statement?), that A6M Zeros which were premier fighters at the begining of the war, were outclassed by newer Corsair and Mustang class American made planes in the later stages of the war, which made the Japanese change war tacticts--- and, it was not until 1944 when the action of a first Kamikaze pilot was recorded.

The service of the Kamikaze was strictly a voluntary affair. The ideas and and opinions of the pilots about the war actions were varied, they were not, by anymeans automatons, they had feelings for their families, the war effort, and their actions, they were however patriotic, in the sense of the word as is translated often by the work of Mishima Yukio, patriotism that leads one to give his life to his country, and to his emperor.

The ideal of Japanese Kamikaze was highly influenced and modeled around Shinto, moreover, of an ideal that life moves from a state of confusion to one of harmony & unity, ---that individual spirits are honorific by their decisions and authority. In this aspect, one can look at Kamikaze as relating to an overall Japanese 'design for living'.

I personally feel that there is a certain purity in the Kamikaze pilots. As an American however, I do in fact feel proud of my country's actions in the war, and I am not one of those people who deride my country over certain actions which were taken during the war--- call it a sense of personal patriotism, where often there is none in this country--- because it is frankly not seen as chic to be patriotic, not the least of which because our president is an installed shill.

The Kamikaze pilots to me represent, without superimposing my own nation's history, the ideals of a pre-war Japan. A strong self identity, and a willingness to die for that identity, to preserve it. I do find that honorable, and as I have said, acorded a sense of purity.

I'm wondering now, what do you think?

[Ewok85]

The service of the Kamikaze was strictly a voluntary affair.

Voluntary in the "you've been volunteered to be a kamikaze pilot" sense of the word.

[yukio_michael]

Voluntary as in I volunteer for this mission...

[Mike Cash]

The man who dreamt up the plan later expressed extreme regret at ever having mentioned it to anyone.

I know a man who was in Kamikaze pilot training. The end of the war came just in time to pull his bacon out of the fire. He holds no romantic notions about what was an idiotic act of desperation.

[Kinsao]

My opinion... there are as many different viewpoints as there were people involved. I would guess that some kamikaze pilots were in it because of being under pressure ('You've been volunteered...'), some because they believed in their country and ideals, others out of a desperation... and who knows what other motives?

It would be nice to say they had purity of intention. It may be more realistic (I don't know) to say that they acted due to pressures. The truth is probably not as simple as either black or white.

:clueless:

[Mike Cash]

It would be nice to say they had purity of intention.

Do you realize what a supreme struggle it is to resist saying something that would cause Godwin's Law to be invoked?

[Kinsao]

Do you realize what a supreme struggle it is to resist saying something that would cause Godwin's Law to be invoked?

No.
.......






[insert 'clueless' smilie here]

[Mike Cash]

For the benefit of those of our friends who may be unfamiliar with it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

[Kinsao]

I meant I don't realize what a supreme struggle it is... due to the fact that I cannot dwell inside your mind, and experience the frustrations inherant in being Mike Cash and having to restrain oneself in the face of verbose and emoticon-using forum-posters, this viewpoint I cannot get into, being limited as I am to my own somewhat constrained circle of vision, therefore what you might call a true understanding of the nature of your internal struggle of resistance, is impossible for me to attain.

~cough~
~topic~
When I use the word 'nice', I don't, of course, mean that the actions of killing people can be considered 'nice', no matter what is the motive... I meant to say, that 'purity of intention' is often thought of as a more 'romantic' and therefore palatable notion of motivation than the alternatives. =P

[Mike Cash]

I know what you meant. I just posted the link for the benefit of others.

I was just having a little fun. Actually saying something that would invoke Godwin's Law would run too high a risk of being taken seriously by some folks.

[caster51]

http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kamikaze/index.htm
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Studio/1715/syokan.html
始まらない人はブラウザの更新ボタンを押してください
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/media/sinjituwadokoni.swf
http://www.ch-sakura.jp/streamfiles/asx/tokko.asx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqK1EkzYoKQ&search=kamikaze
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKn10wt96kk&search=kamikaze

[Carlson]

i would have no problem if the time came when i had to become a Kamikaze and my death would be for the better. but i would no way plan ahead and plan on being one before hand.

[yukio_michael]

I know what you meant. I just posted the link for the benefit of others.
I was just having a little fun. Actually saying something that would invoke Godwin's Law would run too high a risk of being taken seriously by some folks.I think it might have been some sort of self fullfilling prophecy, as maybe just a day later...

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23983#12

~~

To the rest of the thread discussion: my feeling is that we're not talking about some thing that is especially onerous because it happens to be killing people, everyone was killing people in WWII, it was a war. Mike mentioned that it was in fact an act of desperation--- I think that's true, I mean, logically speaking you don't crash your planes into the enemy--- It was a very effective act of desperation however, with for example, one plane taking out the entire USS St. Lo.

I'm not sure if this is one of those types of actions that fall under disgraceful wartime conduct, I don't think so, maybe I look at it symbolically, though I know that the pilots were rather used by their government, this seems to be a very Japanese quality that produced this means of attack. I know war and death and dying is not a romantic thing, but from the outside there is a bit of litterary romanticism to it.

[RockLee]

So many Americans/English people got killed in WW2, literally canonfodder, so that would be the same. See it as an act of patrionism, or an act of desperation/idiocy. I think everyone looks at it with a different perspective.
I think those Jihad self-bombers do the same thing. The only difference in all this is the motive for doing it.

[bossel]

this seems to be a very Japanese quality that produced this means of attack.
Not really. As Rocklee already pointed out, there are others. Germans did the same in WWII, Tamil Tigers have been doing it for a while now...

[sabro]

It inspires my current driving habits.

[Hypertokyo5]

oh wow...good question! honestly...based upon japanese culture with honor being a big part of their beliefs...i would say if i was japanese and very faithful to my religions and beliefs i would find it very admirable.i think those pilots had guts but on the other hand...they killed alot of people. but i guess that doesn't mean much compared to the nuclear bombs.

[sabro]

The Kamikaze program was an act of deperation that wasted pilots and planes. The war was lost anyway... and delaying the American invasion could have been better coordinated and used resources much more efficiently. It would have only delayed the inevitable, but studying that war is a contrast in tactics and strategies.

[caster51]

The Kamikaze program was an act of deperation that wasted pilots and planes

Yes, sure...
Oh wait NO...
There is Japan of today because they were.
As long as we remember this history.......
Even whenever it becomes ruins, Japan revives.

[Mike Cash]

Yes, sure...
Oh wait NO...
There is Japan of today because they were.

You mean they contributed to the ultimate defeat of Japan?


As long as we remember this history.......
Even whenever it becomes ruins, Japan revives.

Give a little thought to the origin of the ruin.

[caster51]

You mean they contributed to the ultimate defeat of Japan?

they Knew that....

http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/media/sinjituwadokoni.swf

[nova]

I don't believe that the notion of self sacrifice is something unusual is rather part of most conflicts and wars.
My opinion on kamikaze pilots is that they did what they did because they believed in one way or another that they could help their country. I think is hard to force someone to overcome their own self preservation instinct even with pressure, that sort of choice is more likely personal.

[yukio_michael]

Not really. As Rocklee already pointed out, there are others. Germans did the same in WWII, Tamil Tigers have been doing it for a while now...You're right. Though, I don't really count the Tamil Tigers, since they are an insurgency group.

I guess I should have been specific about asking what people thought about the pilots themselves, the actions of the pilots, not the action as a whole in the war effort. I think the war was pretty much over for Japan, who would have kept fighting it regardless I've read (some of whom did, in the pacific Islands, who didn't actually know the war ended...), so you may qualify this differently as something that was done needlessly to take lives, or as a 'last stand'... I don't know.

My opinion on kamikaze pilots is that they did what they did because they believed in one way or another that they could help their country. I think is hard to force someone to overcome their own self preservation instinct even with pressure, that sort of choice is more likely personal.I agree on this.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Life in japan was very harsh towards the end of WW2, no home comforts and starving was a major problem for those who wern't very wealthy in comparison to others.
I once watched a documentory series on TV on kamikaze pilots amoungst other fighters of WW2 and they made two interesting points;
a. If you joined the military your family would receive benefets like extra food over families whose sons didn't join the military, not only that but fighting for your country in some respects was a more stable life during those times than that of being a normal civilian, trying to scrape a living day to day by whatever work was available.
It was also very honorable to join the military, so there was a lot of family pressure on you to do so from your family and friends and superiors, and well, everyone really.

With all the expectations, i'm sure a lot of men became kamikaze pilots because they felt it was their duty and the best they could achieve in such harsh times- some may have even felt it was better than becomming some of the other jobs you could do like being a foot solidier, i dunno...I'm sure there was a lot of family pressure on their sons to become pilots if only so they could continue to live on as a family...

b. The second point the documentory made was that the kamikaze pilots were very effective and devastating on the americans- but apparently they would have been even more so against the americans navy if they had just changed their tactics a little.
Apparently each pilot would be given a certain target before he went out that he was expected to hit. If there was no one to kill then he was told to come back as he could "always die another day". The tactic of the pilots targetting particular ships and things though actually made things easier for the americans, as it meant it was easier for them to target and shoot down certain planes that were trying to hit them as they would know which ones to look out for.
If the kamikaze pilots can grouped up more on certain targets the american navy would have stood little chance- unfortunatly though for the japanese, no kamikaze pilots survived to come back and report this error in there tactics, so this went on for the rest of their war and the americans were able to triumph with far fewer losses than what would have been if the japanese had changed their tactics with their kamikaze pilots.

[sabro]

I still think they would have done far more damage if used as conventional attack planes that as disposable one-use missles. One plane has the potential of taking out several other planes, ground targets and ships where a single Kamikaze has an iffy chance of damaging something only once.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I still think they would have done far more damage if used as conventional attack planes that as disposable one-use missles. One plane has the potential of taking out several other planes, ground targets and ships where a single Kamikaze has an iffy chance of damaging something only once.

The kamikaze pilot attacks were much more directed at the american navy than anything else though as far as i am aware, the planes would be stacked up to the brim with cheap but deadly explosives so when the plane hit the huge battle ship it would inflict enough damage in one go to make it sink and inflict serious loses of life.

The problem with just dropping missiles on ships is that it is not very accurate and you may have to be there some time before you inflict enough damage on the ship to make it sink, during which time while you are going back and forth trying to bomb the ship you are getting shot at like a sitting duck in water.
I think the kamikaze pilots were actually more cost effective and damaging to the navy ships than the bog standard bomber/fighter pilots, which is why they lasted so long and were so directed at the navy- the normal bomber/fighter pilots were far more effective on smaller targets like ground solidiers and troops or standing targets like buildings etc.

[caster51]

If you joined the military your family would receive benefets like extra food over families whose sons didn't join the military, not only that but fighting for your country in some respects was a more stable life during those times than that of being a normal civilian,

i dont think so...
until 1943 ,our living was not so bad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE6_LErzj44&search=documentary%20japanese

[Ben W Bell]

Voluntary as in I volunteer for this mission...

Not entirely according to the views and thoughts of those who survived, they have written some interesting books on the subject which aren't as clear cut and romantic as you would seem to suggest.