Japan is actually a very pride, 'authentic' nation, isn't it?

[Meiki]

They treasure olden customs, like coming-of-age-ceremonies, sakura-viewings, etc.

Their everyday life is pretty much very 'japanese', like eating out of bento with chopsticks for lunch, having a very stylish 'kawaii' cellphone with the most modern options.

Holding matsuuri and such. Dressing up in kimono at times.

Even in this modern era, where Japan makes part out of it, with it's hi-tech, fashion, and other things influencing indirectly the world (like American designers looking at Japan for inspiration, Japanese fashion-designers innovating modern fashion with their fresh ideas), it still has a lot of 'authentic', 'original' Japanese characteristics.

Maybe more than your country does? I mean, has your country taken over a lot of 'global', 'modern' things, but has it also keepen it's 'original', 'traditional', 'authentic' things.

How does Japan compare to your own country?

Does your country still walk in traditional clothing on special events?

Does your country have a special way of dining or breakfast?

How does your country compare to Japan?

[Rich303]

I think it's good that a country can retain it's identity whilst rushing forwards.
This is one of the things I like about Japan the most, although I'm not assuming I'd be able to live there.

Strangely, both the girls I've known from Japan seemed quite unhappy living there, citing a 'lack of freedom' as the reason - and desiring to live in the UK. I suppose women might get a better deal here, I don't know.

I like the UK a lot, but I think it's harder to say what defines it now, as it has become so multi-cultural - which is good thing.
However, I think some of the 'PC' brigade have taken things to far, and sometimes do more harm than good. Over-sensitivity to racial issues (e.g banning certain words, local religious festivals etc) , which often don't even upset the people they are trying to protect in the first place has generated anger among some British people.
Sadly, some people are now voting for the (somewhat rascist/fascist) BNP (British National Party) as they feel this is the only party that represents their needs.
(sorry, slightly off-topic)

Hopefully I'm moving back into London soon, where I will see people from every corner of the world, be able eat a multitude of world cuisines (money permitting) and witness many aspects of world culture. I am very lucky to have all this on my door step.
And I can still have an English breakfast sometimes if I want.

I like the way Japan kind of adapts or filters ideas from other places. Japanese culture/mindset seems so strong that you end up with a hybrid product - not just a copy (e.g. fashion, food, music design etc,)

I found it a fascinating place.

[yukio_michael]

On the one hand I agree with you that Japan is in fact a nation that treasures it's cultural history... but then so again is a country like England, where older more antiquated buildings are favoured over the garish new ones.

I think you have however a rather romanticised picture of Japan. I'd encourage you to visit if you've never been.

I'd say I think that you also have it backwards, I think there may be some collusion betwen Japnese and foreign desiners, but not so much that they are 'looking to Japan for inspiration...', I mean, fashion can take it's inspiration from anywhere, and I don't think there is any indication that Japan is in some sort of higher position... I'm quite familiar w/ common Japanese fashion sold in the Shibuya area, it's rather un-international and self absorbed, if you ask me... As for electronics, its a very common mistake to think that Japanese electronics are either superior, or not directly copied from American counterparts---

Also, people buy phones in Japan to use them, not because they happen to be kawaii--- I don't think that people in Japan are consumed with the cult of kawaii as much as everyone thinks--- it's certainly not institutionalized.

Have you eaten bento? It's not always as you see it in anime in compartmentalized boxes... it can be pretty plain, and the average joe salaryman isn't eating bento from a perfect black box underneath the falling sakura blossom with his OL love interest---

I agree, Japan does cherish its culture, but at the same time, I am not one of those people who even slightly entertain the notion that the nation is some sort of perfect fairytale shangrila... it's a modern country, with modern problems, and not everything is what it seems to be. You couldn't describe the whole nation in just a few threads.

[Maciamo]

Before claiming that Japan should be proud of its numerous "authentic" traditions, why don't you take a look at this article (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19765) to see how much is really "authentic Japanese culture".

Personally, I was very disappointed by the way the Japanese preserved the historic heritage. Kyoto survived WWII intact, and the Japanese destroyed almost every historical buildings apart from the temples and shrines. There is more history left many small European towns than in the whole of Tokyo ! Just shocking.

How does Japan compare to your own country?

To give an comparartive example, there are some 3,000 (original) castles in tiny Belgium (13x smaller than Japan), and only 12 original castles (http://www.jref.com/practical/japanese_castles.shtml) (about 50 if we included modern concrete reconstructions) in all Japan. What's more the biggest Japanese castles look tiny in comparison, the inside is not luxurious or beautiful at all, and they all look the same ! Just look at the variety of castles in Belgium (http://www.eupedia.com/belgium/castles_list.shtml), on an area smaller than Kyushu. Countries like France, the UK, Italy, Spain or Germany of course have much more castles than Belgium.

As for traditions, festivals and holidays, I have also counted more in Belgium (or other European countries) than in Japan.

Let's compare national holidays/events with traditions going back over 100 years. I left aside new "non-traditional" holidays/events like Mother/Father's Day, Armistice Day, Sports Day, Green Day, etc. on purpose, as they are not really culture-specific.

Japan (http://www.jref.com/culture/japanese_national_holidays.shtml)

1) New Year
2) Setsubun
3) Hina Matsuri
4) Plum & Cherry Blossom Viewing
5) Higan
6) Tanabata
7) O-bon
8) Shichi-Go-San

Belgium

1) New Year
2) Epiphany ("King cake (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galette_des_rois)'s Day")
3) Valentine's Day, with roots in the Middle Ages
4) Chandeleur (Candlemas) (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandeleur) ("Crepes' Day"), with roots going back to Roman Times.
5) Carnival and Mardi-Gras (most cities have theirs, with different costumes)
6) Easter (with the eggs, bells and rabbits in chocolate)
7) 1 May (when people offer each other Convallaria (lilly of the valley) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convallaria), a tradition going back to 16th century France)
8) Saint-Jean (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%AAte_de_la_Saint_Jean) (equivalent of Midsummer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer)) with big bonfires (similar to Guy Fawkes' Night in the UK). A small Belgian town even has the Guiness Book Record for biggest bonfire in the world.
9) National Day (21st July) with fireworks (equivalent to 4th July in the US)
10) All Saints' Day (1 November => equivalent of Higan or Obon in Japan)
11) Christmas

Note that Valentine's and Xmas are not traditional in Japan, but recent import (as is Halloween both in Japan and Belgium), so I couldn't count it.

Big family gathering happen for New Year in both countries, Obon in Japan against All Saints in Belgium, and also Easter and Christmas in Belgium.


Does your country have a special way of dining or breakfast?

Breakfast (or tea time) : similar to France (bread, pain au chocolat, croissant, brioche), but also more typically Belgian things like waffles, cougnou, cramique and especially tarts. Many people also eat cheese and pickles, melted chocolate, plum compote or crushed strawberries on their bread instead of jam.

Dining : similar to French food again, but with numerous local specialities (waterzooi, mussels, carbonnades, endive rolls, etc.).

[Meiki]

Maciamo, you're Belgian, right?

How many things are Belgian ORIGINALLY?

democracy? no
the use of vork and knife? no
a suit? no
chocolate? no (I really love Belgian chocolate)
the modern sitting-style toilet? no
impressionism (art)? no
christianity? no

[yukio_michael]

Maciamo, you're Belgian, right?
How many things are Belgian ORIGINALLY?
Is your argument really that Belgium didn't invent the fork and knife so therefore it's cultural preservation is invalid?

Are you familiar with the early history of Japan, where it got it's written language, a good deal of its culture, this would be during the begining of the Yayoi period--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yayoi ...you might want to rethink your plan of attack on this one.

Note that Valentine's and Xmas are not traditional in Japan, but recent import (as is Halloween both in Japan and Belgium), so I couldn't count it. Yes, they are more like marketing gimmicks used to sell Christmas cakes & obligation chocolates!

[Meiki]

nope, it has to do with his comment ''Before claiming that Japan should be proud of its numerous "authentic" traditions, why don't you take a look at this article to see how much is really "authentic Japanese culture".''

what is authentic to Belgium?
churches? no
pasta? no
philosophy? no
rhetorica? no
democracy? no
Christmas? no
Valentines day? no

you could replace Belgium with Japan.

[yukio_michael]

nope, it has to do with his comment ''Before claiming that Japan should be proud of its numerous "authentic" traditions, why don't you take a look at this article to see how much is really "authentic Japanese culture".''
Yes, but you're the person who seems to have started this thread with the notion that Japense culture is by and large unique and enviable. When you start an argument that one particular country has some sort of cultural leverage over others based on some specious reasoning that it is both an entirely unique culture, and that they practice it more honestly and fully, the rest of the argument tends to fall apart.

[irishlight42]

How does Japan compare to your own country?


Well, one thing about the U.S. is that it doesn't really have too much of a culture unique to itself, rather it is a bunch of cultures sort of mixed (the salad bowl analogy). For example, most of my family came here from Ireland in the late 1800s and very early 1900s. Very proud of my Irish ancestry, in fact being descended from people martyred by the Tutors for "treason" (course it was really because we, as Catholics, refused to acknowledge the English monarch as a source of religious authority above the Pope, and that was considered treasonous to Britain).

Guess the U.S. has the whole thing with the "Wild West" and that's kinda unique, but for the most part what's interesting is the mix of cultures that you see.


Does your country still walk in traditional clothing on special events?


I WISH! People make expressions of their heritage, at some special events (think I saw a statistic once that more Americans than Scots wear kilts for example), but basically I think there's very limited traditional "American" clothing if any.


Does your country have a special way of dining or breakfast?


Unfortunately.... Americans are known for pigging out on fast food and getting fat as hell.....


How does your country compare to Japan?

Well, I think most countries compare in at least some interests for the most part, though unfortunately I feel that the morals of the U.S. have gone down especially since the Iraq war. I suppose in a lot of industrial countries these days, such as the U.S., Japan, UK, France certainly, the more liberal crowd (myself included) seems to be protesting "state terror" a lot. I'm kinda sick of Bush running the country through fear of the "radical islamics", which I have a tendency to compare to Hitler running Germany through the fear of the "prominent jews". We're not genocidal, and we're still a Democracy, but there are some comparisons that can be drawn up.

I guess the other way that the U.S. and Japan, as well as MANY other countries compare, is the view of immigrants. I mean, I think most people agree there needs to be a limit somewhere especially so we can take care of the less fortunate people already living in our countries, but we do also need to treat immigrants (even illegals) as human beings and not as animals like I sometimes think the U.S. does to hispanics and Germany does to Turkish.

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, you're Belgian, right?
How many things are Belgian ORIGINALLY?
democracy? no
the use of vork and knife? no
a suit? no
chocolate? no (I really love Belgian chocolate)
the modern sitting-style toilet? no
impressionism (art)? no
christianity? no

Belgium is the heart of Europe. You have to understand that if Belgium cannot be regarded as a culture in itself, as it is made of 3 language groups, and historically belonged to various European countries.

If you count the time in history something was "invented" or someone famous lived, we could say that Belgium was also the country of Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Charles V of Habsburg, Philip II of Spain, Maria-Theresa of Austria, Mozart, Napoleon, Beethoven, and part of the country that discovered America (Belgium was part of Spain at the time of Columbus, and Columbus' travel tale was first printed in what is now Belgium), invented the submarine, ambulance service and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Belgium was part of France when that happened in France).

Classical Roman art ? Part of Belgium's direct heritage (unlike the USA), as Belgium was part of the Roman Empire since Julius Caesar (earlier than Britain).

The Romans already used forks and knives, so it is also partly a Belgian invention. Eating at a table with chairs was a Gaul habit - the Gauls were the Celtic people of France and Belgium before the Romans conquered them.

You should also know that the world's first printed newspaper was published in Antwerp, Belgium in 1605. The Saxophone is one of the most famous invention from Belgium since its independence in 1831.

Chocolate may not have been invented in Belgium, because it's just the cocoa plant (you can't invent a plant), but pralines (e.g. Godiva, Leonidas, Neuhaus...) were invented in Belgium in 1912.

I don't know why you call sitting-style toilets "modern", because they already had them in many medieval (e.g. 1000 years old) castles I visited in Belgium. Don't know exactly where they originated, but most probably in Continental Europe, so anyway most probably in a country that included all or part of the territory of Belgium.

Btw, did you know that Peter Minuit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Minuit), the guy who bought Mahattan from the American Indians and thus founded the city that became known as New York, was from what is now Belgium. You could say that NYC is originally a Belgian City. Indeed, what are now the states of New York and New Jersey (and a bit more) used to be called Novum Belgium or Nova Belgica (New Belgium => see History of New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_New_York)). Of course, Belgium was called the Netherlands at that time.

I am quite happy that Christianity is not a Belgian invention. I would be seriously ashamed.:blush:

Real democracy still is a kind of myth, as it doesn't exist anywhere. Greeks and Romans had slaves. The French were the first to declare equal rights to all citizens (the young USA also had slaves). Belgium was part of it since the very beginning of the French Revolution (in fact before the South of France, as Liege joined the revolution almost at the same time as it started in Paris). So we could say that modern "democracy" was also invented in the same country as what is now Belgium.

If you want to instruct yourself more on Belgium (as you visibly need it), check this page (http://www.eupedia.com/belgium/trivia.shtml#Food).

[Maciamo]

nope, it has to do with his comment ''Before claiming that Japan should be proud of its numerous "authentic" traditions, why don't you take a look at this article to see how much is really "authentic Japanese culture".''
what is authentic to Belgium?
churches? no
pasta? no
philosophy? no
rhetorica? no
democracy? no
Christmas? no
Valentines day? no
you could replace Belgium with Japan.
Have you seen the examples you take ? Can you actually tell where most of these are originally from ? Philosophy is a very European thing, as there were many philosophers in every country. Belgian philosophers were actually among the very first to succeed from those of the Antiquity at the Renaissance, like Erasmus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus) (could also be Dutch, as Belgium and the Netherlands were the same country at the time, but he did teach in Leuven and have a house in Brussels (http://www.erasmushouse.museum/)). This is the guy who gave his name to Europe's most famous university student exchange programme. Another famous Renaissance philosopher from Belgium is Justus Lipsius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justus_Lipsius). Note that at that time, many names in Belgium were still in Latin, showing how strong the Roman heritage remained 1000 years after the fall of the Roman Empire. French is a direct descendent of Latin.
And believe me medieval Belgian churches are as authentic as it get in matter of European architecture.

[yukio_michael]

[...]I feel that the morals of the U.S. have gone down especially since the Iraq war.Where are you getting this information? What is your source on the morals of the United States being in a decline? Also, are you implying that Japanese morals and code of ethics are somehow superior?

I'm kinda sick of Bush running the country through fear of the "radical islamics", which I have a tendency to compare to Hitler running Germany through the fear of the "prominent jews".This is so off base I don't even know where to begin.

[Meiki]

huh, wait! My point is not about Japan being unique and enviable. I didn't even mean to imply that :( . My apologies if it did sound like that.

I would just like to hear what 'authentic' traditions, customs people in foreign countries treasure or do, you know :-) .

I like how French people enjoy their supper and company in the late evening for quite a time. Sometimes having a platter of cheese
That's a French tradition.
While we, Dutch people, eat up our food within 15 minutes. But I'm very glad that with the multicultural influence, we also get to eat (Dutchified) italian, chinese food, british sandwiches, french baguettes, noodles. Dutch 'traditional' food has always been bland, actually.
I'm very proud of Holland being progressive in human rights, and it is THE gay-capital of the world :-) .

[yukio_michael]

I've been to the Netherlands & I don't recall that--- I'm just saying that any one nation can't be pigeonholed by a few sterotypes that may actually be prominant--- but can't always be counted on to define a country.

The one truism I came away from NL with was that indeed, the Dutch do not put katsup on their chips. ;)

ed: Also, I like that you can drink on the train in NL... now that's liberal.

[Maciamo]

The one truism I came away from NL with was that indeed, the Dutch do not put katsup on their chips. ;)

I used to think that only American put ketchup on chips. In Belgium, there are dozens of sauces to put on chips (mayonaise, aioli, bearnaise, cocktail, andalouse, americaine, samurai...), but almost never ketchup ! It almost sounds like eating sushi with ketchup. :blush:

[Meiki]

Have you seen the examples you take ? Can you actually tell where most of these are originally from ? Philosophy is a very European thing, as there were many philosophers in every country. Belgian philosophers were actually among the very first to succeed from those of the Antiquity at the Renaissance, like Erasmus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus) (could also be Dutch, as Belgium and the Netherlands were the same country at the time, but he did teach in Leuven and have a house in Brussels (http://www.erasmushouse.museum/)). This is the guy who gave his name to Europe's most famous university student exchange programme. Another famous Renaissance philosopher from Belgium is Justus Lipsius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justus_Lipsius). Note that at that time, many names in Belgium were still in Latin, showing how strong the Roman heritage remained 1000 years after the fall of the Roman Empire. French is a direct descendent of Latin.
And believe me medieval Belgian churches are as authentic as it get in matter of European architecture.

Sorry, I don't believe in what you say. You sound so desperately trying to connect things. While to me, I'm Dutch, and I admit Dutch people or 'Batavieren', the old name for our people, don't have much of long ancient history or had an ancient civilisation. We got pawned by other people, countries and we took over a lot of ideas and things.
I'm glad Holland is a firstworld-country and we're number one in many fields. Which reminds me of Japan, having been always the smaller country, taking from other countries (big brother China), but being a leader in several area's now, like robotica and having a unique culture.

[Dutch Baka]

The one truism I came away from NL with was that indeed, the Dutch do not put katsup on their chips. ;)

ed: Also, I like that you can drink on the train in NL... now that's liberal.

You can also buy beer at the movies, and DONT get coffee in the coffee shop.. is that weird or not:p

[nice gaijin]

Your argument holds no water, Meiki, as neither Japan or Belgium claim to be the origin of democracy, churches, eating utensils, christmas, philosophy, or pasta. They do, however, have their own versions of these things which are relatively unique in their interpretations, and have been woven into the fabric of those countries' histories. Your interpretation of "unique" is narrow and exclusive to the extent that nothing qualifies as unique anymore.

Perhaps the reason it seems that other are trying "so desperately to connect things" is that you keep posting things that are so wildly off-topic. I didn't expect an attack on Belgium's history and heritage in a thread about the pride and authenticity of Japan... :okashii:

[RockLee]

Seems he has a grudge against Belgians huh :evil:

[Maciamo]

Seems he has a grudge against Belgians huh :evil:

Isn't Meiki a "she" ?

[RockLee]

Isn't Meiki a "she" ?I wouldn't know :? But from his/her profile I can see he/she's from Chinese decent. So she isn't exactly 100% Dutch as he/she claimed.

[leonmarino]

I have no idea what point Meiki is trying to make.

Sure, Japan had a period of isolation of a few hundred years so many things in their culture are.. Unique, in a way. Holland, Belgium and many other coutries havn't had a period of total isolation, so many elements of their cultures are based on common (religious) festivities.

It has no use "bashing" Belgium, saying it's not unique at all, because I do think Belgium is a unique country. The same way Holland is a unique country. Or France or Korea or Zimbabwe. Belgium hasn't got festivities unique to itself like Japan does, but that is what makes the two countries different. Different, not better or worse, or more unique. Different.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I wouldn't know :? But from his/her profile I can see he/she's from Chinese decent. So she isn't exactly 100% Dutch as he/she claimed.
If s/he was born and raised in the Netherlands with Dutch citizenship, that sounds like 100% Dutch to me, regardless of his/her racial makeup.

[RockLee]

If s/he was born and raised in the Netherlands with Dutch citizenship, that sounds like 100% Dutch to me, regardless of his/her racial makeup.How can anybody who's a 2nd or 3rd generation into a country say something about the country they are currently residing in as THEIR ancestors??? Her/his ancestors would be Chinese, right :? =>
While to me, I'm Dutch, and I admit Dutch people or 'Batavieren', the old name for our people, don't have much of long ancient history or had an ancient civilisation. We got pawned by other people, countries and we took over a lot of ideas and things.Technically speaking her/his her people are Chinese, not Dutch if you go back in time.Unless one of her/his parents is Dutch ofcourse :p

[yukio_michael]

This [OP] is exactly what I'm talking about, why does Japan so often make someone totally deride and reject their own heritage simply because Japan's seems more interesting to them.... :confused:

[irishlight42]

Where are you getting this information? What is your source on the morals of the United States being in a decline? Also, are you implying that Japanese morals and code of ethics are somehow superior?
This is so off base I don't even know where to begin.

No, sorry about all that, didn't mean to make such implications at all. I think perhaps people are a bit blinded to what's really important sometimes in the U.S., but then I suppose that occurs in a lot of countries.

[Meiki]

Wow, my profile is really screwed up :p . On another board my nationaility is Nigerian :blush:. I like to mess with people's head :relief: . Okay, I'm sorry for the confusion, but I've never understood the meaning of a profile, you can make up things as much as you want and people would believe it. Kekeke, me Chinese....:blush:

[Meiki]

Oh, and I don't mean to bash Belgium or make fun of it's authencity in any way. It's just that you, Maciamo, implied that Japan has ripped of from China and is not original at all. Yeah, a lot of things that are considered very Japanese now did not originate in Japan.
But hey, a lot of things that are considered to be very Belgian or Belgian people think it's a very Belgian did not originate in Belgium at all.
I would be insulted if someone said Holland was not original at all and only copied things from other countries, from fashion to tv. But hey, we live in a global community, right? So, it's only normal to take things over easily. That's what internationalisation is about.
I guess, maybe it's all a matter of taking things over and make an own version of it and then see which one is the most interesting one, instead of copying.
Instead of Belgium or Japan you can insert every country you want to.
But the truth is this whole site is about Japan, so there must be things that Japan has their own interesting version of, more interesting or attractive than other countries, which makes people interested in Japan.


:-)

[Maciamo]

If s/he was born and raised in the Netherlands with Dutch citizenship, that sounds like 100% Dutch to me, regardless of his/her racial makeup.
That's not the way most people understand it in Europe. To give you a more local example, to be considered as a Roman by local Romans, even if you are "pure Italian", your family needs to have been established in Rome for at least 7 generations.

I suppose the expressive "native Dutch" or even better "stock Dutch" would be better to describe someone with "pure" Dutch ancestry. Personally, "pure" would mean something like 100% of one's ancestors have lived in the country for at least 300 years. Most Europeans have (or could have, given a bit of research) a genealogical tree going back to several centuries. Local archives in Belgium have everyone's birth, marriage and death certificate since the 17th or 18th century, and up to the 11th century if you have ancestors in the nobility. So it's easy to check how "pure" somebody is. I guess this mindset that doesn't help with integrating immigrants though...

[Maciamo]

Oh, and I don't mean to bash Belgium or make fun of it's authencity in any way. It's just that you, Maciamo, implied that Japan has ripped of from China and is not original at all. Yeah, a lot of things that are considered very Japanese now did not originate in Japan.
But hey, a lot of things that are considered to be very Belgian or Belgian people think it's a very Belgian did not originate in Belgium at all.
I would be insulted if someone said Holland was not original at all and only copied things from other countries, from fashion to tv. But hey, we live in a global community, right? So, it's only normal to take things over easily. That's what internationalisation is about.

My point about Japan getting most of its traditional culture from China is the same as the one about Belgium getting most of its heritage from the Romans, French, etc. I see Belgium as part and parcel of a common European civilisation. Its culture and history is intertwined with that of neighbouring countries and indeed most of Europe. Nobody denies that. However, when somebody says that Japan or Korea are part of the Chinese civilisation, as they got most of their cultural heritage from it, East Asian people get offended. Yet it is not really different from Europe's case. Europe has never been one unified country in history, and so is it for China, Korea and Japan. But all European countries belong to the European civilisation, with a common heritage, and so do Japan, Korea and China.

[Meiki]

Erm, sorry but aren't Roman and Greek civilisation totally different and far ''ancient'' (not saying superior) than Scandinavian culture?
But Greek and Roman civilisation have had the upperhand in influencing other countries, like the alphabet and such.
And didn't Greeks had contact with other civilisations besides Rome? I think most civilisations aren't pure.
I don't really see a European civilisation. A civilisation is something ''ancient'' to me. So, that would be Rome, Greece, Egypt, China, India. Maybe not even Rome, as it was a baby-civilisation compared to the others.
And other places lagged behind, but definitely not inferior.
I don't think there's much of a ''European'' culture or an ''Asian'' culture, a Europe and Asia are man-made terms to define area's.
I just think in countries, nations.



Anyway OT again, you know that world's famous beer is Heineken, right? It's Dutch :blush: . We love to have a fresh beer after work or when we go out. Well, I don't drink beer, but it's cool anyway that most people enjoy Heineken.

[leonmarino]

Hey, why not just agree on the fact that every land/culture is unique? Unique, but neighbouring countries tend to share some common cultural elements.. Sounds simple right? Well in my opinion it is just that.

Japan, due to the hundreds of years of isolation, has some characteristics that can be found nowhere else, but Japan too has been influenced by the rest of the world. The whole Japanese educational system is based on the American system. The post-war Japanese economy is also shaped with the help of Americans. Nagasaki has a 400 year long trading history with Holland. Some very Japanese words are of Dutch, Portuguese or English origin. And my god, the terrible hype around Valentine's day and Christmas.. （笑）

And Meiki, are you proud of Heineken!?　（汗） You should go to Belgium and drink some real beers.. Jupiler, Rodenbach, Westmalle, Brugse Zot, Liefmans Kriek.. Now THAT's authentic!! （笑）

[Dutch Baka]

And Meiki, are you proud of Heineken!?　（汗） You should go to Belgium and drink some real beers.. Jupiler, Rodenbach, Westmalle, Brugse Zot, Liefmans Kriek.. Now THAT's authentic!! （笑）

Haha, I am proud of Heineken, but that's more because of they are all over the world, and their history. I agree that Belgium beer is authentic, and having 400 sorts of beer in a country is amazing! and hai unique :p

[Maciamo]

Erm, sorry but aren't Roman and Greek civilisation totally different and far ''ancient'' (not saying superior) than Scandinavian culture?
But Greek and Roman civilisation have had the upperhand in influencing other countries, like the alphabet and such.
And didn't Greeks had contact with other civilisations besides Rome? I think most civilisations aren't pure.

Modern Europe has inherited from the Greeks, Romans, Celts,Germanics and Scandinavians, Slavs... Of course there is no such things as a "pure" civilisations as ideas and habits travel.

Maybe you were referring to my definition of "pure" like in "pure Dutch". That was not about culture of course, but just blood, lineage.


I don't really see a European civilisation. A civilisation is something ''ancient'' to me.

Well, you are wrong. Check the dictionary.

And other places lagged behind, but definitely not inferior.
I don't think there's much of a ''European'' culture or an ''Asian'' culture, a Europe and Asia are man-made terms to define area's.
I just think in countries, nations.

I feel like I am having a conversation with a child...


Anyway OT again, you know that world's famous beer is Heineken, right? It's Dutch :blush: . We love to have a fresh beer after work or when we go out. Well, I don't drink beer, but it's cool anyway that most people enjoy Heineken.

So what ? What's your point ? Many Dutch people tend to think of Heineken as a low-class commercial beer compared to some other Dutch or Belgian beer. Are you even Dutch ?

[KrazyKat]

I don't think there's much of a ''European'' culture or an ''Asian'' culture, a Europe and Asia are man-made terms to define area's.
I just think in countries, nations.


I think that countries and nations are far closer to being just man-made terms to define areas than something like Europe, especially many of the countries created through colonialism. If Europe is jsut a term to define an area it isn't a very good one since its very hard to come to a definate conclusion of where exactly does it end? Does it include Israel which is in the eurovision song contest, or North African countries that want to join the EU - and were part of the Roman Empire? Perhaps it could even be seen as the extent of Christianity? It can also mean jsut the EU, or just continental Europe.

I clearly see there being a European culture and common history. However, each country or region within Europe doesn't share all of this common culture and contains parts that are unique to itself.

Is this thread about Japan, or Europe?

[Meiki]

About JAPAN :-) !


so we know that Japan has it's very own musicscene

how about yours?

don't need to reply if you're american, cause we all know american stars are very popular abroad too, due to the dominating american entertainment, hollywood-movies and such :wave: .

so japanese people cherish their own artists, singers, groups and bands very much and the majority of the entertainers/artists on the Oricon-list are japanese, and on the second place it would be korean artists, I think.

I know Britney Spears, Maria Carey, etc. are popular too in Japan.

[Mikawa Ossan]

How can anybody who's a 2nd or 3rd generation into a country say something about the country they are currently residing in as THEIR ancestors??? Her/his ancestors would be Chinese, right :? =>
Technically speaking her/his her people are Chinese, not Dutch if you go back in time.Unless one of her/his parents is Dutch ofcourse :p
That's not the way most people understand it in Europe. To give you a more local example, to be considered as a Roman by local Romans, even if you are "pure Italian", your family needs to have been established in Rome for at least 7 generations.

I suppose the expressive "native Dutch" or even better "stock Dutch" would be better to describe someone with "pure" Dutch ancestry. Personally, "pure" would mean something like 100% of one's ancestors have lived in the country for at least 300 years. Most Europeans have (or could have, given a bit of research) a genealogical tree going back to several centuries. Local archives in Belgium have everyone's birth, marriage and death certificate since the 17th or 18th century, and up to the 11th century if you have ancestors in the nobility. So it's easy to check how "pure" somebody is. I guess this mindset that doesn't help with integrating immigrants though...
I was getting ready to discuss these issues, as they are important to me, but I simply see no point in doing so on behalf of someone who writes,
Wow, my profile is really screwed up . On another board my nationaility is Nigerian . I like to mess with people's head . Okay, I'm sorry for the confusion, but I've never understood the meaning of a profile, you can make up things as much as you want and people would believe it. Kekeke, me Chinese....

[mad pierrot]

I'm learning alot about Europe!


:cool:

[Maciamo]

I think that countries and nations are far closer to being just man-made terms to define areas than something like Europe, especially many of the countries created through colonialism. If Europe is jsut a term to define an area it isn't a very good one since its very hard to come to a definate conclusion of where exactly does it end? Does it include Israel which is in the eurovision song contest, or North African countries that want to join the EU - and were part of the Roman Empire? Perhaps it could even be seen as the extent of Christianity? It can also mean jsut the EU, or just continental Europe.

Europe clearly does not include North Africa or Israel. But Russia is definitely part of the European civilisation (more than Turkey, which is "half-European" from her mother-side :p ).

I clearly see there being a European culture and common history. However, each country or region within Europe doesn't share all of this common culture and contains parts that are unique to itself.

No need to state the obvious. If China were to plit up in 20 countries, you could also say that each of the country had its own culture (different food, different languages), and some shared more together than others. Same for India. It may be difficult if you haven't studied about world cultures, but there are undeniable similarities shared between countries within Europe, South Asia and East Asia (not so much South-East Asia though) so that we can define them as "civilisation".

A civilisation goes beyond political borders. When I speak of "Indian Civilisation", it includes Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and to a lesser extent also Nepal and parts of Afghanistan. When I speak of "Chinese Civilisation", it includes Taiwan, Japan, Korea and Vietnam (but maybe not Tibet), not just the People's Republic of China. Modern countries are only made to confuse us as the generally do not fit with cultural borders. It's confusing to talk of "Indian" civilisation when a country is also called India but the borders of both do not match. Just remember that historically the region was divided in dozens of countries, with empires rising and falling, some just in the North, others in the Sout, and others indluding most of the Indian subcontinent. It's the same as in Europe.

China too has been divided in various kingdoms, and some empires included Vietnam, Korea, Manchuria or Tibet, while others didn't. None included Japan, but trade, political and cultural ties with Japan were always strong. Ethnically, the Japanese are much closer to the Chinese than the Portuguese are to the Finns. Linguisticially too (Japanese got 50% of its vocabulary from Chinese, a similar proportion as to what English got from Latin).

South-East Asia could hardly be called a civilisation because many of these countries do not share much in common. Ethnically, some people are white-skinned (e.g. Vietnamese, Thai...), other dark-skinned (e.g. Cambodian, Indonesian...). Some languages are related to Chinese (e.g. Vietnamese, Thai...), others are not (Indonesian, Tagalog...). Some countries are Buddhist, others Muslim, others Christian. Cultures evolved differently enough not to be part of a bigger whole. That's probably caused by the high fragmentation of the region in islands and peninsulas. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines could maybe be regarded as the same civilisation though.

[Maciamo]

About JAPAN :-) !
so we know that Japan has it's very own music scene
how about yours?

It is people asking questions like that that gave me a bad impression of the Japanese. Isn't it obvious that every country has its own traditional and modern music, singers and bands ?


don't need to reply if you're american, cause we all know american stars are very popular abroad too, due to the dominating american entertainment, hollywood-movies and such :wave: .

Then who are you addressing in particular on this forum ? Not the Americans and not the Japanese (and not the Chinese I suppose, as you are one and also know about it, right ?). That means mostly the Europeans. Yet you live in Europe, and supposedly have heard singers and bands from many countries (maybe all if you cared to watch the Eurovision contest each year). I guess you also know that in terms of traditional music (in very broad lines) Scotland has bagpipes, Italy has mandolins, Spain has Flamenco, France has chansons, and Germany or Austria lieders. Add to that classical music from the 16th to 20th century. I am sure you can find famous composers from most European countries: Grieg fro Norway, Sibelius from Finland, Elgar or Holst from Britain, Liszt from Hungary, Dvorak from Czechia, and so many from France, Italy, Russia, Germany or Austria...

[KrazyKat]

Europe clearly does not include North Africa or Israel.


I agree. I just picked places with weak claims to try and stretch the definition. Personally, I wouldn't consider Turkey to be part of Europe either. (Although whether or not to join the EU is a slightly different question)


But Russia is definitely part of the European civilisation (more than Turkey, which is "half-European" from her mother-side :p ).

Again, I agree. However, this in itself brings more questions about the 'borders' of 'Europe'. Would the Asian parts of Russia also be considered part of European civilisation? (The Asain CIS states surely wouldn't) My point is simply that what is Europe or not is to at least some extent open to personal opinion.

About JAPAN :-) !
so we know that Japan has it's very own musicscene
how about yours?


How can the thread be about Japan if you are only asking questions about everywhere except for Japan?

[Maciamo]

Again, I agree. However, this in itself brings more questions about the 'borders' of 'Europe'. Would the Asian parts of Russia also be considered part of European civilisation?

Again, civilisation is about culture and heritage, not political or geographical borders. Canada, the USA, Australia and New Zealand are also part of the European civilisation. Turkey is not geographically in Europe, but its heritage and culture is half European. Cyprus is not more geographically in Europe than Turkey. In fact, it is nearer from the Middle East than Europe. But nobody contests its right to be in the EU as it is clearly European in culture.

[pipokun]

Just curious to know who and how many people finds affinity to roman or greek cultures in Europe now.

[KrazyKat]

Again, civilisation is about culture and heritage, not political or geographical borders. Canada, the USA, Australia and New Zealand are also part of the European civilisation. Turkey is not geographically in Europe, but its heritage and culture is half European. Cyprus is not more geographically in Europe than Turkey. In fact, it is nearer from the Middle East than Europe. But nobody contests its right to be in the EU as it is clearly European in culture.

Exactly what I think. Sorry If I wasn't being very clear.

[Maciamo]

Just curious to know who and how many people finds affinity to roman or greek cultures in Europe now.
Let's make a poll (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23874) !:-) I believe a very large majority.

[pipokun]

Let's make a poll !:-) I believe a very large majority.
Sounds interesting. Nietzsche would be glad to hear that.

One thing I really envy the Europe is that few people would be proud "Who invented somthing first", "Who let you know our great culture", or something like that.

[leonmarino]

Well, they say the Greek civilization is the basis of European civilization.. But apart from a delicious bun of Gyros, I don't have a lot of affinity with Greece.

[nova]

Personally I think all countries are "authentic" in their very own way, I don't like to make judgments between countries or cultures, and which is best or more "original". My opinion on this topic is that maybe you see Japan as an "authentic place" because you find too different, interesting or at least unique their culture and customs in comparison with your culture.

[Maciamo]

Personally I think all countries are "authentic" in their very own way, I don't like to make judgments between countries or cultures, and which is best or more "original".

Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly with you and other members who have expressed the same view. This, however, is one of the reason that made me leave Japan, because 95% of the Japanese I have ever met were convinced that Japan was more unique or more "special" than other cultures, which gave them so kind of (sometimes condescending) pride. Hearing that almost everyday certainly gets on your nerves.:okashii:

[caster51]

Japanese got 50% of its vocabulary from Chinese, a similar proportion as to what English got from Latin).
Today
70% of modern chinese vocabulary was made by japanese

[Maciamo]

Today
70% of modern chinese vocabulary was made by japanese

What are you talking about ? :okashii:

[caster51]

http://www.catv296.ne.jp/~t-homma/dd040912.htm
http://www.zhaojun.com/youci/riyu.htm

每当我想到我们用以思考、演说、写作的概念中，有70％是日本人所营造时，我就寻思起这样的问 题

もしも中国が日本製漢語を輸入しなかったら、
毛沢東も毛沢東語録を書けなかった。
中国語の中で、日本語から来た外来語の数は、驚くほどの数字で、現在我々が使用している社会とか人文・科学 方面の名詞、術語の７０％は日本から輸入したものである。
Japan is just borrowing Kanji
we are not borrowing vocabulary

[Maciamo]

Japan is just borrowing Kanji
we are not borrowing vocabulary

That's almost the same. Have you ever learned Chinese or been to China ? I can tell you that a lot of compound words in Chinese and Japanese are the same. Those which are different are usually easy enough for me to understand in Chinese from learning Japanese.

[gnx]

It would be best to state sources before making statistical statements with regard to modern vocabulary. Is it from a linguistic base that this statement arises?
It is best to find consensus as inflammatory comments polarize
and defeat attempts to understand.
One could write about the shock to chinese thinking after the invasion of manchuria as well as one could relate the impact of chinese influenced by the americans in burma on ...japanese soldiers soon to return to nippon.Either way there was cross-pollination from a position of military history

[caster51]

It would be best to state sources before making statistical statements with regard to modern vocabulary. Is it from a linguistic base that this statement arises?
The person who makes remarks by the prejudice or illusions is numerous.
I can tell you that a lot of compound words in Chinese and Japanese are the same
Everybody Knows......
those are from japan..in particular,technical terms ...science,economics,philosophy.......so on.
japan did requital of a favour that borrowed Kanji

[yukio_michael]

Today
70% of modern chinese vocabulary was made by japaneseJapan acquired loan words from China, from the sixth, through the seventeenth centuries, and since the mid nineteenth century, borrowed thousands more from the west, particularly from English... not to mention those exceptional words kept from Portugues & Dutch, but overall the language owed much much more to spoken Chinese.

I can talk about this all day, but it seems like your primary goal is to make it seem as if China owes Japan a debt for it's own language, which Japan had borrowed heavily from in the first place.

As Maciamo said, borowing Kanji in the case of Japanese/Chinese is much the same as borrowing vocabulary... I'm sorry, but this is just linquistically true... Any book on the history of the Japanese language, or Kanji will back this up. Don't turn this thread into some nationalistic rant about China.

[caster51]

I'm sorry, but this is just linquistically true... Any book on the history of the Japanese language, or Kanji will back this up. Don't turn this thread into some nationalistic rant about China.
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その理由は、日本が新しく作った語彙がよく出来ていた からである。当時の日本では､ 西洋の新語を訳すとき､ 大部分は意訳をしていた｡ その意訳の場合、ちゃんと中国の造語法のルールを守って新しい語彙を作った｡ 具体的には、
　　○形容詞＋名詞（人権　金庫　特権　哲学）
　　○副詞＋動詞（独占　交流　高圧　特許　否定　肯 定）
　　○同義語を重ねる（解放　説明　方法　共同　主義 　階級）
　　○動詞＋客語（投票　休戦　作戦　投資　投機　抗議）
　　○上述の語による複合語（会主義　自由主義　治外 法権）
中国が近代になってから取り入れた外来語は殆んどが日 本製だとか。特筆すべきは日本製の語彙は､ 現代中国語における使用頻度が非常に高いと言う事であ る。であるから自然科学と社会科学の基本概念も日本製 漢語を通じて中国に入り、ひいては日本製語彙で中国人 は思考していると言うことにもなる。
I am not talking nationalistic rant about China .
I am just talking the fact
．「中華人民共和国」、「中国共産党」は“和製漢語

The culture, language..are not one-way traffic.

[bossel]

I am not talking nationalistic rant about China .
I am just talking the fact
．「中華人民共和国」、「中国共産党」は“和製漢語
The culture, language..are not one-way traffic.
If I understand the Google translation of your Japanese text correctly, it only says that the majority of modern loan words in Chinese is Japanese (which I doubt, it's more probably English). It doesn't say that the majority of the complete (modern) Chinese vocabulary is of Japanese origin.

[caster51]

If I understand the Google translation of your Japanese text correctly, it only says that the majority of modern loan words in Chinese is Japanese (which I doubt, it's more probably English). It doesn't say that the majority of the complete (modern) Chinese vocabulary is of Japanese origin.
Yes, that is right..
if the japanese were nationalistic, Japan would give up the Kanji like korean.
we are not stupid like that.
we are proud of kanji from China

[Glenn]

It also looks like these words are specialized, i.e. only used in certain scientific fields. By the way, where did you get the number 70%?

[caster51]

ask chinese Professor,王彬彬


http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%92%8C%E8%A3%BD%E6%BC%A2%E8%AA%9E

[Glenn]

Here is my rough translation of the Japanese text above, for a more readable translation than Google's. I didn't translate any of the word lists, though.

その理由は、日本が新しく作った語彙がよく出来ていた からである。当時の日本では､ 西洋の新語を訳すとき､ 大部分は意訳をしていた｡ その意訳の場合、ちゃんと中国の造語法のルールを守って新しい語彙を作った｡ 具体的には、
　　○形容詞＋名詞（人権　金庫　特権　哲学）
　　○副詞＋動詞（独占　交流　高圧　特許　否定　肯 定）
　　○同義語を重ねる（解放　説明　方法　共同　主義 　階級）
　　○動詞＋客語（投票　休戦　作戦　投資　投機　抗議）
　　○上述の語による複合語（会主義　自由主義　治外 法権）

"The reason is that Japan created many new words. In Japan of the time, when they would translate Western words, for they most part they would translate the ideas. When they translated them they did so by the rules of the Chinese when they would make new words. Specifically:

Adjective + noun
Adverb + verb
Combine synonyms
Verb + object
Compound words based on the words of the above types"

中国が近代になってから取り入れた外来語は殆んどが日 本製だとか。特筆すべきは日本製の語彙は､ 現代中国語における使用頻度が非常に高いと言う事であ る。であるから自然科学と社会科学の基本概念も日本製 漢語を通じて中国に入り、ひいては日本製語彙で中国人 は思考していると言うことにもなる。

"Since the advent of modern times the loan words that China has imported have nearly all been Japanese made. It’s worth mentioning that the usage rate of Japanese made words in modern Chinese is extremely high. Therefore, the basic idea of natural science and social science were brought to China through Japanese made “Chinese words.” Moreover, Chinese people think using Japanese made words."

[caster51]

it is too exaggerated to say that Chinese cannot do without Japanese loan words.

[Glenn]

I didn't say that.

[caster51]

I didn't say that.

OOps the chinese scholar said....

[Mikawa Ossan]

The culture, language..are not one-way traffic.The sooner EVERYONE in the world realize this, it will be a much better place to live.

[leonmarino]

The sooner EVERYONE in the world realize this, it will be a much better place to live.
That goes without saying! :cool: I feel like going to a karaoke bar and singing "What a wonderful world"! :blush:

Anyways, it is an interesting viewpoint that 70% of the modern Chinese vocabulary is of Japanese origin, but I refuse to blindly accept it because one Chinese professor wrote about it. I googled and wikid around for a while but couldn't find evidence that concurrs with this theory.

I does make me think though, 'cos the Dutch language has some (not a lot) German words, but do the Germans use Dutch words? Same goes for the relationship with the French language; we have a lot of words of French origin, but are there French words of Dutch origin? Although I have no research data, it seems that smaller countries adopt vocabulary from larger, neighbouring countries easier than the other way round.. Anyone have similar observations?

[Maciamo]

Did you know that 85% of the words and grammatical rules in Japanese actually come from old Sumerian ? Yes, it's true, I just wrote it was ! :D

Isn't caster a wonderful example of lack of critical-mindedness which results from the Japanese education system ? :blush:

[caster51]

Isn't caster a wonderful example of lack of critical-mindedness which results from the Japanese education system ?

Japanese education system?
I was a failure from that LOL

[Glenn]

Although I have no research data, it seems that smaller countries adopt vocabulary from larger, neighbouring countries easier than the other way round.. Anyone have similar observations?

I would say it's more that the more powerful (politically and culturally) countries are borrowed from more than less powerful countries, similar to how one dialect gets chosen to be the standard over another.

[Maciamo]

Although I have no research data, it seems that smaller countries adopt vocabulary from larger, neighbouring countries easier than the other way round.. Anyone have similar observations?

English is the perfect counter-example. It is originally the language of England, later extended to the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland. Due to colonisation of the political importance of both the UK and USA, English has influenced more languages in the world than any other. Many countries that were never colonised (e.g. the rest of Europe, Japan...) also adopted a lot of vocabulary from English.

Other counter-example, the German language has much more words from French than the opposite, yet Germany is more populous than France, and continent-wise, there are also more German speakers than French speakers.

Don't even get me started on Latin, the ancient language of central Italy, an Greek, only spoken by 10 million native speakers nowadays, having influenced all European languages, including English.

[osias]

Did you know that 85% of the words and grammatical rules in Japanese actually come from old Sumerian ? Yes, it's true, I just wrote it was ! :D
Isn't caster a wonderful example of lack of critical-mindedness which results from the Japanese education system ? :blush:

I guess he is the result of the Chinese education system. He's quoting from the Chinese professor.:blush:

http://www.china.org.cn/chinese/ch-yuwai/193347.htm

Japan modernized earlier than China, and they translated new western concepts to their own language. During this process, they coined new words to apply to the new concepts, and the Chinese reborrowed these western concepts from the Japanese, which is why the Chinese language has many loan words from Japan.

[leonmarino]

I guess he is the result of the Chinese education system. He's quoting from the Chinese professor.:blush:
http://www.china.org.cn/chinese/ch-yuwai/193347.htm
Japan modernized earlier than China, and the japanese translated western concepts to their own language, and then the Chinese reborrowed many western concepts from the Japanese, which is why the Chinese language has many loan words from Japan.
Wow! So Caster was right after all!.. I still find it strange that it is not mentioned in any other -English- site though. :okashii:

[osias]

After the Meiji Restoration, many Chinese leaders studied in Japan, like 蒋介石、孫文、魯迅、汪兆銘、周恩来etc.。

http://www.cn.emb-japan.go.jp/cul_edu_j/kouza060415_j.htm

[Maciamo]

Wow! So Caster was right after all!.. I still find it strange that it is not mentioned in any other -English- site though. :okashii:

Not at all. Caster said "Today 70% of modern chinese vocabulary was made by Japanese", well in fact it is 70% of the technical vocabulary ! That's a huge difference. We could say that 70% of the technical words in French or in Japanese also come from English (esp. in computering, marketing...).

[nova]

So actually, it would be less of 70% in all the language excluding technical words?
Anyone have similar observations?
Mm... there are some loans on spanish from arabic, just a couple of words, though.

[gnx]

The root idea to discuss ideas crossing artificial national boundaries you cannot see many of them (boundaries) from a helicopter or airplane
...is interesting. People have been interchanging ideas almost as much as people have been destroying those who held different or opposing ideas.
What we have in this discussion is the reason why we can have some hope for the future...people from all around the world writing about the origins of concepts...and we all know that it really does not matter any more who has more pride or "authenticity". It is the roots of Shinto and the power that the Japanese(Nipponese) character has based mostly due to the Isolation and refinement of the society during the closure of the nation to outsiders.
Now that Japan is "open" it is an example to the individual and other nations/peoples in many ways.It was the closure to the outside... of the islands that contributes to the unique character of Japanese culture. First closed then open, then closed now open...Or No?

[ricecake]

Yes, that is right..
if the japanese were nationalistic, Japan would give up the Kanji like korean.
we are not stupid like that.
we are proud of kanji from China

THANK YOU !

Chinese do know Japanese ARE WISE BUNCH unlike those bittered Koreans refer Hanja as " foreign ",a reason to eradicate the Chinese script entirely from public places.

As a Chinese descent,I am a bit flattered by Japanese still respect our Chinese script as an integral part of modern Japanese language.We Chinese can get around Japan without speaking Japanese tongue,we can communicate in writing.

[ricecake]

Not at all. Caster said "Today 70% of modern chinese vocabulary was made by Japanese", well in fact it is 70% of the technical vocabulary ! That's a huge difference. We could say that 70% of the technical words in French or in Japanese also come from English (esp. in computering, marketing...).
Thanks for the CLARIFICATION,the so-called 70% Japanese loanwords PRIMARY PERTAIN to MODERN CONCEPTS only.

Japanese KANJI is ORIGINAL AUTHENTICALLY Chinese script,borrowed from China during Tang Dynasty.

[ricecake]

My point about Japan getting most of its traditional culture from China is the same as the one about Belgium getting most of its heritage from the Romans, French, etc. I see Belgium as part and parcel of a common European civilisation. Its culture and history is intertwined with that of neighbouring countries and indeed most of Europe. Nobody denies that. However, when somebody says that Japan or Korea are part of the Chinese civilisation, as they got most of their cultural heritage from it, East Asian people get offended. Yet it is not really different from Europe's case. Europe has never been one unified country in history, and so is it for China, Korea and Japan. But all European countries belong to the European civilisation, with a common heritage, and so do Japan, Korea and China.

Japan,Korea,and China SHARE A COMMON HERITAGE ..... period.

There are right-minded Japanese and Koreans do privately acknowledged their country is VERY MUCH INFLUENCED BY Chinese civilization,oppose to some with nationalistic view might outright reject it.

It's a matter of national pride for Japanese and Koreans not loosely accept what's constantly throw at their faces ... your culture CAME FROM CHINA.

I can honestly say,Japanese SMARTLY DEVELOPED OWN UNIQUE BRAND of JAPANIZED Tang culture of China.

China is no longer a great country Japan and Korea ONCE LOOKED UP TO AS CULTURAL CENTER for that region.

[Maciamo]

I can honestly say,Japanese SMARTLY DEVELOPED OWN UNIQUE BRAND of JAPANIZED Tang culture of China.
China is no longer a great country Japan and Korea ONCE LOOKED UP TO AS CULTURAL CENTER for that region.

I don't see why you get all flustered. European countries as well as the US, Canada and Australia got a good deal of their culture from ancient Greeks, Romans and Germanic tribes (Franks, Anglo-Saxons, Goths...). Yet you can also that they each linguistic group in Europe smartly developed their own unique brand of (country name)ized post-Greco-Roman culture. The Roman Empire is no longer a great country as well (no longer a country at all). But you can't deny the origin of a country's culture, even if it evolved separately in its own unique way later (all countries do, even tiny ones like Luxembourg).

Sometimes I wonder why Japan, which 'imported' part of its culture from China over 1000 years ago, remains more culturally similar to modern China than neighbouring European countries like France and Germany, or Italy and Switzerland. Japanese and Chinese people share so much more than looks, kanji and traditions. They are both materialistic, money-minded, love eating, hierarchical in politics and business, very self-centered and concerned about their country's image in the world, like similar kind of music, clothes, etc.

My point is that, comparing European countries between each others, eventhough they all share a similar cultural and historic heritage too, their modern culture has become very different for such things as egalitarianism (e.g. egalatarian Scandinavia vs hierachichal France), importance attributed to food (British vs French), national pride (e.g. Belgians or Germans tend to associate more with their region, while the French or Irish are very proud of their national identity), etc.

[ricecake]

Sometimes I wonder why Japan, which 'imported' part of its culture from China over 1000 years ago, remains more culturally similar to modern China than neighbouring European countries like France and Germany, or Italy and Switzerland. Japanese and Chinese people share so much more than looks, kanji and traditions. They are both materialistic, money-minded, love eating, hierarchical in politics and business, very self-centered and concerned about their country's image in the world, like similar kind of music, clothes, etc.


As a Chinese descent,I am FLATTERED by your assertion Chinese civilization indeed has " long lasting imprint " on Japan after all these centuries for it's quite a compliment.By the way,we shouldn't leave out Korea once prided itself as " little CHINA ".

Again,it's matter of national pride and separate identity lead to some Japanese and Koreans would rather say it's their version of imported Chinese culture instead of our culture is basically Chinese.

[ricecake]

My point is that, comparing European countries between each others, eventhough they all share a similar cultural and historic heritage too, their modern culture has become very different for such things as egalitarianism (e.g. egalatarian Scandinavia vs hierachichal France), importance attributed to food (British vs French), national pride (e.g. Belgians or Germans tend to associate more with their region, while the French or Irish are very proud of their national identity), etc.



I have a PARALLEL EXAMPLE for you.

Koreans and Chinese HAVE THE SAME MENTALITY oppose to Japanese and Koreans SHARE CLOSEST FACIAL SIMILIARITIES,with Japanese is " a different culture " within the world of Chinese civilization.

This is ONE SECRET these 3 NE Asian nationalities are full aware of,which is not a commonly known fact to foreigners.

[Maciamo]

I have a PARALLEL EXAMPLE for you.
Koreans and Chinese HAVE THE SAME MENTALITY oppose to Japanese and Koreans SHARE CLOSEST FACIAL SIMILIARITIES,with Japanese is " a different culture " within the world of Chinese civilization.
This is ONE SECRET these 3 NE Asian nationalities are full aware of,which is not a commonly known fact to foreigners.

I am not sure I understand what you mean. Facial traits are mostly irrelevant in cultural comparisons. But I agree that modern eastern Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and even Vietnamese cultures all descend from ancient Chinese culture, and thus all belong to the same civilisation. We could call it Chinese Civilisation, but also East Asian Civilisation to be more politically correct.

[ricecake]

I am not sure I understand what you mean. Facial traits are mostly irrelevant in cultural comparisons. But I agree that modern eastern Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and even Vietnamese cultures all descend from ancient Chinese culture, and thus all belong to the same civilisation. We could call it Chinese Civilisation, but also East Asian Civilisation to be more politically correct.

Japan,Korea,Vietnam are the 3 Asian nations MOST INFLUENCED BY Chinese civilization,but with own respective traditions and customs.

Japanese and Koreans APPEAR CULTURALLY Chinese,only Japanese people THINK DIFFERENTLY from both Chinese and Koreans or DO NOT HAVE SAME MENTALITY as Koreans and Chinese do.This is ONE SECRET only us know.

Japanese and Koreans are XENOPHOBIC and have " collective mindset ",these traits Chinese generally don't have.

Korean food is more spicy,Chinese foods are regional,and Japanese food is typically light except for tempura.

Japanese is more open about " sex " than Koreans and Chinese.

[Maciamo]

As a Chinese descent,I am FLATTERED by your assertion Chinese civilization indeed has " long lasting impact " on Japan after all these centuries for it's quite a compliment.By the way,we shouldn't leave out Korea once prided itself as " little CHINA ".

I am not sure there is more reason to be flattered than for a modern Italian or Greek to say that the culture of the USA orginated in their country.

Btw, it seems that 99% of East Asians forget that the Korean and Japanese people have the same ethinc origins as Han Chinese. In the Yayoi-period it was Koreans who invaded Japan (then inhabited by the Ainu), and all modern Japanese descent primarily from those Koreans. But the most interesting is that Korea was not a really country at that time, but more like 3 of the kingdoms belonging to the Chinese civilisation.

I think it would be a fair to compare the ancient people inhabiting what is the Korean peninsula and Eastern China to the numerous Celtic tribes (with slightly different languages and customs) inhabiting most of Central and Western Europe before being unified by the Romans.

It's only modern nationalistic propaganda and the ignorance of the masses that make us oppose Chinese, Korean and Japanese people as if they were already those 3 distinct people 2000 years ago. They were NOT. Likewise, there was no France, no Spain or no Germany in Europe at that time. There were hundreds of Celtic and Germanic tribes, all fairly independent, with their own (fairly similar) culture and dialect. Linguistico-cultural groups are much more clear cut nowadays than they were 2000 or 3000 years ago. Just look at ancient languages. Ancient Greek, Latin, ancient Celtic and ancient Germanic languages were much closer together than modern European languages (despite common modern terms for sciences, technology, academics and politics). Early Japanese people spoke a language much closer to the Korean of the time than modern Japanese and Korean. In fact, my guess is that Yayoi, Kofun, Yamato or Nara-period Japanese felt much more like cousins of the inhabitants of Korea and Eastern China than they do now.

[caster51]

Japanese and Koreans APPEAR CULTURALLY Chinese,but only Japanese people THINK DIFFERENTLY from both Chinese and Koreans or DO NOT HAVE SAME MENTALITY as Koreans and Chinese do.This is ONE SECRET only us know.
japan is a farming society.....
we need always harmony to cultivate...(like vietnam,,..south east asia.)
There is a group or cooperative system at first in japan and then there is a individual.
in case of china, china is multi-ethnic country.The enemy is necessary to bundle them like USA.
korea need it ,too
American public's strength is proportional to strength of the competition of
the individual.
the bacic is whether it is a harmony society or competitive society that we need

[ricecake]

it is too exaggerated to say that Chinese cannot do without Japanese loan words.

Chinese do not have problem with Japanese created words use in all facets of our culture .... period.

We are fine with it,not nationalistic as those bittered Koreans.



The culture, language..are not one-way traffic.



Agree,it's TWO-WAY TRAFFIC with mainly inflow of Japanese modern culture to Chinese-dominated nations in the past century.

[Maciamo]

japan is a farming society....

Could you give me an example of a country that is not a farming society ?

[ArmandV]

Could you give me an example of a country that is not a farming society ?


Monaco. Unless you want to count casino-farming.

[Maciamo]

Monaco. Unless you want to count casino-farming.
If you consider Monaco as a country. It does not have its own currency, own army, etc. Seriously, most of the Japanese I have met believed as if it was a hard fact that the Japanese were originally (whatever that means) farmers, while Westerners were hunters. They go as far as to use this theory to explain that the Japanese are more group-minded (which they define as typical A-blood type personality, prevalent in Japan), against the individualism of Westerners (defined by O-blood type, although not more prevalent than A in Europe).

[ricecake]

Seriously, most of the Japanese I have met believed as if it was a hard fact that the Japanese were originally (whatever that means) farmers, while Westerners were hunters. They go as far as to use this theory to explain that the Japanese are more group-minded (which they define as typical A-blood type personality, prevalent in Japan), against the individualism of Westerners (defined by O-blood type, although not more prevalent than A in Europe)


My personal opinion,Japanese and Koreans are CLANNISH or are GROUP-MINDED (collective mindset) much has to do with THEIR ANCESTRAL NOMADIC HERITAGE.

[ricecake]

They treasure olden customs, like coming-of-age-ceremonies, sakura-viewings, etc.


Japanese PRESERVED their old traditions well,no doubts about it.

I've EMBRACED Japanese UNIQUE CULTURE for much of my adult life,for it has a touch of " high-classness " to it.

[caster51]

Could you give me an example of a country that is not a farming society ?
oops...I mean rice:p
japan is rice farming country.
it means settled as rice farming.
we can see that in religion that is deffrence between monotheism and polytheism.
I think the persons who believe a God and Gods are so defferent.
the person who believe a God wants the unification.
on the other hand, the person who believe Gods wants "wa". that is harmonization
I think The monotheism is egoism of the race who was born in the place that is destroyed the forest and became the wilderness.(like middle east?:okashii: )
I think The monotheism is a very belligerent religion.
permanent peace of Human race is impossible without the criticism or the control of this monotheism.
I think The dividing of the monotheism and polytheism was caused by the difference of the agricultural output and produce..
The wheat farming is agriculture of the plant rule by man.
Stock-farming is animal rule by man, too.
In such a civilization, man's power is valued.
Nature is assumed to be the one ruled by man.
And, the monotheism that　group believes absolutethe god arises.
As for polytheism, the attention of the reverence to nature is strong.
The coexistence of man and other living things is intended.
Polytheism that admits the existence of the pantheon everywhere of nature grows up easily in it.
there are Matsuris or festivals eveywhere in japan that ppl thank to nature ,gods and kami

[caster51]

Yayoi, Kofun, Yamato or Nara-period Japanese felt much more like cousins of the inhabitants of Korea and Eastern China than they do now
I dont think so.
there is sea between them
Person's traffic was more difficult.
even next prefecture was like a foreign country.
who knew them?

[pipokun]

...
Japanese is more open about " sex " than Koreans and Chinese.

At least your fellow Chinese people in the PRC needs a bit more free speech.

[ricecake]

At least your fellow Chinese people in the PRC needs a bit more free speech.

This is uncalled for,if it's sarcasm intended otherwise people there should push for greater freedoms including the right to free speech.

I am not from PRC,my family left mainland China back in the 1880's.

[Minty]

This is uncalled for,if it's sarcasm intended otherwise people there should push for greater freedoms including the right to free speech.
I am not from PRC,my family left mainlland China back in 1880's.

Rice cake, it's better to refer yourself as "Overseas Chinese" to not confuse the others.

[Minty]

If you consider Monaco as a country. It does not have its own currency, own army, etc. Seriously, most of the Japanese I have met believed as if it was a hard fact that the Japanese were originally (whatever that means) farmers, while Westerners were hunters. They go as far as to use this theory to explain that the Japanese are more group-minded (which they define as typical A-blood type personality, prevalent in Japan), against the individualism of Westerners (defined by O-blood type, although not more prevalent than A in Europe).

Ok, that explains why my personality is the individualism type; maybe this is why I married an European.:blush:

[ricecake]

Rice cake, it's better to refer yourself as "Overseas Chinese" to not confuse the others.

Yeah,I did DECLARED MYSELF as Chinse descent in #78 and #82 plus OPENINGLY identified where I was originally from in one post on other thread here.

[ricecake]

I dont think so.
there is sea between them
Person's traffic was more difficult.
even next prefecture was like a foreign country.
who knew them?

caster51 .... I agree with you.

Many early ancestors ( excluding Ainu ) of modern day Japanese WERE various nomadic clans passed through Korea peninsula from NE region ( China ) of Asia continent,they couldn't have known other Tungus tribes later settled in Korea peninsula therefore I doubt they felt any " kinship " toward each other.According to credible history texts,Japan islands later established diplomatic ties and cultural exchanges with " foreign " kingdoms of Baekje and Silla located in southern part of Korea.

On the same token,there is a common shared NE NOMADIC lineage among most Japanese and Koreans whether these 2 nationalities accept it or not.

Chinese often make " sarcastic giggles " when Koreans ignorantly claim they created Japanese civilization.Japanese and Chinese absolutely know Koreans have nothing to be proud of,therefore resort to " hi-jack " other NE Asians' achievements as if it was theirs.Recent years,some extremist S Koreans shamelessly claim their Dong-Yi ancestors INVENTED Chinese script and Confucius was chosenjin or ancient Korean NOT CHINAMAN.

Ancient times,there were hundreds loosely northern continental NOMADIC CLANS roamed freely where is now Outer Mongolia,Inner Mongolia,parts of Siberia,plus China's NE region.Authentic Chinese history chronicles documented tribal names and backgrounds of these barbaric tribes.I recently accumulated a nice collection of Chinese language books on ancient Chinese nomadic clans like Mongol Xian Bei,Xiongnu ( Huns ),Tungus tribes,etc.

Some recent sources ( including Japanese ) identified Yayoi had ANCIENT CONNECTIONS TO China's Yangtze River,it's now believed Japan's rice culture came from that region.Some do entertain the idea Yayoi settlers migrated from coastal region of China ( Jiangsu province ),for there are some solid archaelogical findings support such claim.

[ricecake]

Btw, it seems that 99% of East Asians forget that the Korean and Japanese people have the same ethinc origins as Han Chinese.



Maciamo ...

Maybe,I can shed some lights here.

Han Chinese ethnicity is A VERY COMPLEX ONE,it's now a generic race of intermixed Asia continental Mongoloids.

According to accredited Chinese historians,the Han Chinese identity began with TWO ORIGINS.(1)Hua-Xia tribes in upper Yellow River Basin and (2)Dong-Yi tribes of China's Shandong peninsula later obsorbed various northern nomadic tribes plus Bai Yue indigenous peoples populated southern parts of today's China over a span of time.

Japanese and Koreans ARE MOSTLY of northern/NE nomadic heritage plus a percentage of them can trace family roots to coastal region of China for Japanese and Shandong peninsula for Koreans.

These 2 East Asian nationalities ONLY RELATE to Han Chinese ( mainly northern Han Chinese ) of Mongol and Tungus-Manchu ancestry plus some local Han Chinese families live in those two Chinese regions stated in above paragraph.

My family is Hakka-dialect speaking southern Cantonese Chinese of Hua-Xia origin,can trace our ancestral roots to Hebei province therefore we have very little if any to zero blood-relation with Koreans and Japanese of nomadic heritage.

Yes,Japanese and Koreans DO SHARED " a few " same ethnic origins as Han Chinese.

It's MATTER OF NATIONAL PRIDE and A SEPARATE IDENTITY not forgetfulness of their ancestral roots.Trust me,Koreans and Japanese do know their ancestors were either willingly migrated from or pushed out ( militarily beaten down in Koreans case ) from interior Asia continent.

To those Koreans and Japanese who are well versed in Chinese history,Hua-Xia IS THE CORE CULTURE of Chinese civilization originated in Yellow River Basins.

Chinese MENTALITY is ... Hua-Xia centric or Han-centric or Sino-centric.

[leonmarino]

The fact that this thread has survived until now surprises me a little. I have no time at the moment so I haven't read many of the newer posts, but I would like to say one thing Ms. Ricecake:

COULD you PLEASE stop USING capital LETTERS? It is a TAD annoying and does NOT add any VALUE to YOUR posts.:blush:

No seriously, I have no clue as to when you like to capitalize your letters, but if it is to stress a point or focus on a word, you can also use the bold or italic functions. Using capital letters too much seems like you're screaming at the computer, and ultimately at us fellow forum members. This is not meant as a offence, but rather as a tip, I hope you understand.:relief:

[Glenn]

To be honest, overusing italics and boldface type is quite annoying as well.

[ricecake]

It's only modern nationalistic propaganda and the ignorance of the masses that make us oppose Chinese, Korean and Japanese people as if they were already those 3 distinct people 2000 years ago. They were NOT.



With all due respect ......

I beg to differ,to some extend in regards to this paragraph.

Ancient Japanese and Koreans were more genetically cousins/siblings of mostly nomadic tribes,than with Han Chinese of ( agricultural tribes ) Hua-Xia and Dong Yi origins.It was CHINESE CULTURE BROUGHT these 3 nationalities closer together,as I simply put it in earlier post Japanese and Koreans APPEAR CULTURALLY Chinese.

There were enlightment cultural exchanges,political marriages and commerce traveled between different Chinese dynasties and various ancient Korean kingdoms located in Korea peninsula and ( southern old Manchuria ) Jilin/Liaoning provinces of today's China 2000 years ago.Koreans' ancestors WERE FIRST Sinicized with adoptation of Chinese script but kept their nomadic customs intact.As for ancient Japanese,direct contact with China didn't occurred until Tang Dynasty.It was Baekje,one of Korea's 3 kingdoms ( concurrent with Silla and Koguryo ) played as " conduit " or " transporter " of Chinese cultural aspects to then a close ally Japan.Silla's military alliance with Tang Dynasty defeated both Koguryo and Baekje some 1500-1600 years ago,Korea peninsula became UNIFIED Silla as one consolidated nation.It was UNIFIED Silla implemented SINICIZATION POLICY for the entire country,this was the beginning of Korea's road to " culturally Chinese ".

Japanese,Koreans,and most Han Chinese are of northern/northeastern Asian stock but with slightly different origins as I explained here and previous post.

Today's northern Han Chinese are either "nomadic " Mongol/Manchu ancestry or Hua-Xia/Dong-Yi ancestry partly mixed with nomadic stock.2/3 of China's history,it was those northern nomadic tribes ruled China with many notable dynasties like Mongol Xian-Bei tribe's northern WEI and later YEN,period of 5 barbaric DONG-HU tribes ravaging northern part of China,Jurchen's Jin dynasty,Mongol's YUAN dynasty,Jurchen/Manchu's Qing Dynasty,plus a few earlier ones I've forgotten dynastic names.Those nomadic populations ASSIMILATED INTO Han Chinese generic race,this is what brought Han Chinese genetically closer to modern day Japanese and Koreans.

[gaijinalways]

ricecake posted Japanese and Koreans APPEAR CULTURALLY Chinese,only Japanese people THINK DIFFERENTLY from both Chinese and Koreans or DO NOT HAVE SAME MENTALITY as Koreans and Chinese do.This is ONE SECRET only us know.

Japanese and Koreans are XENOPHOBIC and have " collective mindset ",these traits Chinese generally don't have.


Well, yes every culture thinks slightly differently. And Chinese are not xenophobic? You have to be kidding, yes? I would say Japan probably ranks 1# for xenophobia as a developed nation, with China perhaps 1# overall worldwide. I could give you numerous similarities between Japanese and Chinese mentality and treatment towards foreigners. One difference in Japan, at least, you don't usually get charged more, though you may be banned equally from places you wish to enter or live in.

[ricecake]

Well, yes every culture thinks slightly differently.



Chinese and Koreans HAVE SAME MENTALITY,meaning we think alike and have same emotions.That's not the case for Japanese,they do have DIFFERENT mentality from Chinese and Koreans.My Chinese language translated book titled " Ugly Koreans " written by China-born chosenjin presently reside in Japan,he also explained it thoroughly in this book.

If you've seen both Chinese and Korean TV dramas or films,then you know what I mean.

[godppgo]

Chinese-xenophobic is different from Japanese-xenophobic. Chinese's xenophobic has its roots traced back to the sino-centrism mentality in most Chinese. You see, most Chinese have this belief that Chinese culture or the Hua-Xia culture is more advance than any other cultures on Earth. This is fine when you don't know what's out there. During the 1800s, when the Chinese were exposed to the western cultures, they suddenly found themselves to be "less advanced" than the western cultures. This is an adjustment that most Chinese are having a hard time adjusting to, even to this present day.

The unwillingness to accept Chinese culture as a less advance culture turn into hatred or bitterness toward the foreigners, or the so-called gaikokujin. There's a major difference between Chinese's xenophobic and Japanese's xenophobic.

[iyah_lujille]

as per my opinion japanese are very nationalistic.. right??