Japan Culture

[feelinjapan]

Hi

I'm new in this forum.
I have this strange feelin' about everythin' that has to do with Japan, I'm amazed by the culture, people, art...many times I wish I were japanese.
I came to this forum to know more about Japan.

The difference I noticed between US and Japan's cultures is that japanese have more morals, honor, respect. They are more peaceful people, smarter and they don't restrict themselves with things related to art, they're very creative.

Of course this is in general, there're exceptions everywhere, but I think there's a tendency.

What do you think?

[nice gaijin]

I think you have a lot to learn, but that's why we're all here. I'm curious as to where you noticed these differences?

[feelinjapan]

what do you mean by "you have a lot to learn"
you think what I said is wrong?
what I said are things that are preety clear, they're smarter, their technological advancement is amazing, they're respectful and there's no doubt they're very creative you can tell just by looking at their commercials, video games, cartoons, music, clothing...etc

[nice gaijin]

You're making generalizations which are not entirely correct.
How are they smarter? What technological advancement are you referring to?

I won't deny that there is a lot of emphasis on "politeness" in Japanese culture, but by their own standards, which are different from other other cultures. An American might not have the same concept of what is "respectful" as a Japanese person.

As for creativity, there are creative people wherever you go, and to be honest, I'm not floored by the originality of Japanese commercials, music or modern clothing. I'm not a big fan of cartoons and video games, but they all seem to be done in the same style. This doesn't strike me as particularly "creative."

[leonmarino]

There many threads on this forum that have a different topic name but actually comes down to the same issue: is Japan really that unique? Here a few recent examples: 1 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23983) 2 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24207):okashii:
Many of us been through the phase you are going through at the moment Feelinjapan, or in any case I admit I did go through such a phase. May I ask you, if I am not too intrusive, how old you are and how much or how little you have had contact with Japanese culture? And I don't mean Manga, Anime, J-pop or whatever, but have you been there, have you spoken to Japanese people..? I don't mean to offend you Feelinjapan, but I sense that you are still pretty young and havn't looked into the Japanese culture that closely.:relief:
Japan is a great country for sure, no doubt about it. But I don't think it is fair to say they are smarter and more creative than other people, or even more polite.. I hope you will learn a lot more about Japan in the coming days, months and years so you can get a more balanced view on Japan. This forum is a good place to start as there are a lot of experienced people here willing to share their story.:cool:
Which reminds me, welcome to his forum!:p

[Ryuhou]

Still, one can tell a lot just by watching anime and/or reading manga. I think what feelingjapan said is mostly true, of how Japanese show more respect, of their morals and honor, of them being skillful and hardworking, and so on. I sort of get a similar feeling of fascination by their culture. Soon I'll be able to see for myself, of how it is there in fact. I'll share my story as well :)

[geesehoward4life]

Uhhh, no one gets left back in Japanese schools. I've met some very smart Japanese penpals, but they've been "shocked" that I have at least some understanding about things outside of America. I have to say that I have no idea where you got the idea that the Japanese are smarter then Americans.

As far as the creative part, how many more times can the same storylines be told. As a point of reference I saw the DVD Mail which stars Kuriyama Chiaki or Chiaki Kuriyama, which ever floats your boat, but it was pretty straight forward and at the end you find out she's a ghost, which you... kinda already knew if you cared. Either way, the main character is supposedly a powerful psychic or whatever, I was expecting him to use his powers or something to make it so that she could be with him and continue to help him with his cases and although it would have been weird, because of course she is dead, it would've really been impressive and shown that he not only was as powerful as they tried to portray, but

That he really was in love with her and missed her and was willing to forego his life with another woman to be with her until his time came and then they could ascend to Heaven TOGETHER. That, is creative.
:cool:

However:okashii:
What I got was him wimping out and then "sending her" anyway and then having the nerve to say we will see each other in a next life. I didn't exactly find his words or actions very different from too many other Japanese movies and shows that I've seen, but I haven't seen them all so :cool: , but I use to watch too much Anime until I just got tired of it. It all looked the same, all acted the same, eventually. I still haven't gotten tired of Ranma 1/2, but I seriously dispute your creative claim.

[nice gaijin]

Still, one can tell a lot just by watching anime and/or reading manga. I think what feelingjapan said is mostly true, of how Japanese show more respect, of their morals and honorI can link to a few videos that would put this claim to rest, but I imagine they're against all sorts of forum rules.

...of them being skillful and hardworking, and so on.
Just doing a google search for "Japanese efficiency"...
http://www.gate39.com/business/jpncompany.aspx
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501021209-395413,00.html

I'm not all that cynical about Japan, but I do tend to bristle when people spout this exported fantasy vision. Generalizations run both ways, and both kinds are just as dangerous. I tend to pay more heed to users like Mike Cash, who has lived in Japan for quite some time, and cites first hand experience instead of making sweeping uninformed speculations.

[geesehoward4life]

I guess my header said it all, but still Thanks. I was paying attention to the fact that right now I've heard a lot of news about cell phones having some sort of "credit" that can be transferred from it to the cashier where people pay later or when they get paid or something like that, I have it on my computer, but how is that going to solve their struggling economy and why is youth unemployment so high there?

[Mike Cash]

Hi

The difference I noticed between US and Japan's cultures is that japanese have more morals, honor, respect.
What do you think?

I would think it hilarious, had I not already tired of laughing at such naive and uninformed assumptions a long, long time ago.

[mash27]

this forum seems to have a lot of disenchanted people with a "wait and you'll see" attitude about Japan. I think that everyone develops their own impressions about countries. Some people get disillusioned with Japan while others don't.

The Question is always "Who" likes or doesn't like Japan, but there isn't a universal truth about how someone will feel about Japan. Each individual as his one peronsality and circumstances that make him see things differently.

What feelinjapan is saying is mostly true. The Japanese are creative, definitly more than americans when it comes to movies, pornography, food, fashion, video games and cartoons. There is a lot of repetiton in anime, video games and movies, but not more than what u find in the US. What's important is the number of unique and original things that are produced by a culture and Japan is definitly not short on those. And the Japanese are less hindered by moral values or taboos, so if they feel like making a TV show about who can get his underwear dirtier the fastest or a prono about which girl can poop more they go ahead and do it.

Technologically the Japanese are the leaders in electronics and cars. Far superior than the US. Their army is also the best equiped in the world, even ahead of the US but for obvious reasons smaller in size and influence.

It's also a heirachical society so some elements of respect and honor are omnipresent. THey have they own view of what is moral and respectful and that's just fine. Who are we to impose our western view on them.

It's great that Japan is free of moralizing when it comes to sex, nudity and other things.

I find that Japan's view of sex, women, marriage and other things more natural and healthly than the west. Unfortunatly most westerners are uncapable of getting out of they cultural formating in order to judge japan on its own terms and according to its own circumstances.

[nice gaijin]

A lot of the "creativity" you're referring to is not a result of less hindrance, but more likely a backlash against the heavy repression Japanese society inflicts on its citizens on a daily basis.

You talk about judging Japan on its own terms, yet you've repeatedly compared it to a country other than your own.

[mash27]

A lot of the "creativity" you're referring to is not a result of less hindrance, but more likely a backlash against the heavy repression Japanese society inflicts on its citizens on a daily basis.

You talk about judging Japan on its own terms, yet you've repeatedly compared it to a country other than your own.

The US border is 30 minutes away and TV and culture in canada are 90% american so I'm no stranger to the US.

When I talk about judging Japan on its own terms I mean understanding the context in which it's culture has evloved into what it is. Each particular context leads to different repercussions tha can be good or bad.

Every society on the face of the earth is subject to one form or another of social repression and the Western capitalist societies are no exception to that. A lot of this repression is internalized to the point of becoming invisible.
The Japanese are repressed in one way, the Americans in another and the Arabs in yet another and so on.

I don't think interpreting things in terms of repression is the right approach. After all many societies are more repressed than Japan (have u been to Saudi Arabia or Iran where women are veiled, pornography unexistent and public places segregated into Male/female?) Where is the creative backclash there?

And besides what does social repression have to do with creating a video game with good characters, a memorable plot and exciting gameplay? OR any other creative product?

If u are talking about porn, then yes, some sexual practices were introduced to compensate for their mosaic laws.

Please give me specific examples of the "heavy repression" inflicted on Japanese society.

[DoctorP]

Their army is also the best equiped in the world, even ahead of the US but for obvious reasons smaller in size and influence.

How in the world do you make this assumption? They supply their military with castoff equipment from other countries. They are using missile systems that the US was using in the 70's!


It's also a heirachical society so some elements of respect and honor are omnipresent. THey have they own view of what is moral and respectful and that's just fine. Who are we to impose our western view on them.

Forced respect is not respect!

[mash27]

How in the world do you make this assumption? They supply their military with castoff equipment from other countries. They are using missile systems that the US was using in the 70's!


U obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

read this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,968845,00.html

"Japan famously has one of the best equipped but least useful armies in the world. This is because its military power is deliberately entangled in a constitutional net designed to avoid any repeat of the adventurism that led to the invasion of China in 1937 and the assault on Pearl Harbor in 1941."


this: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/04/1048962932191.html

"With an annual defence budget of $US31 billion ($51.5 billion), Japan has assembled one of the best-equipped militaries - pointedly described as "self-defence forces" - in the world."


this: http://www.glocom.org/special_topics/us_report/20040603_usreport_s13/index.html

"Japan has reluctantly complied and its forces represent one of the best equipped in the world. However, the barriers to becoming a "normal" nation go far beyond criteria related to military hardware and naturally imply a revision of its pacific constitution"


this: http://japanfocus.org/article.asp?id=095

"Politically a minnow on the world stage, Japan is potentially a military giant. The world's second largest economy boasts an army of 238,000 who are probably the best-equipped troops in the planet outside of the US, thanks to Japan's fifty-year alliance with Washington."


Forced respect is not respect!

Life on earth is hierachical in nature. Human and animal societies form hierachies based on a variety of factors.

Western societies are also hierachical except that no one admits it openly and instead prefer to hide the facts behind hypocritical slogans of "Equality for all", "equal rights", "equal opportunities" etc... The Japanese in this area are less hypocritical and admit the basic fact that society is arrangned in a hierachy.

The world has rich and poor, smart and dumb, ugly and handsom, strong and weak and all the in betweens. Individuals arrange themselves according to their individual potentialities and circumstances to form large social bodies were everyone strives for what he can reasonably achieve. in the process the less able or competent get weeded out by a ruthless sytem aimed at preserving the well constitued at the expense of the less well constitued. Don't blame me, blame monther nature, god or the council of the 7 celestial monkeys, or just accept the fact and move on with your life.

Repecting one's elders and seniors has nothing to do with being forced, it's simply a matter of decency. In Japan the whole process is simply more formal and codified in behaviour and language.

[nice gaijin]

this forum seems to have a lot of disenchanted people with a "wait and you'll see" attitude about Japan. I think that everyone develops their own impressions about countries. Some people get disillusioned with Japan while others don't.A sense of "disenchantment," preceded by a sense of "enchantment," is usually the result of first-hand experience that dispels those myths that led to the original infatuation with the subject at hand. If I had to choose between the two, my choice would be the former. However, I generally try to be objective and avoid identifying with either the things I find positive or negative about Japan (or anything for that matter).

Please give me specific examples of the "heavy repression" inflicted on Japanese society.
Rigid gender and social roles is a good start. There's also the concept that a good worker is a worker who looks busy. The average working family man's life at the office is detrimental to his life at home. Divorce is generally considered disgraceful to all parties involved, especially the wife and children, which only keeps unhappy marriages together. Bullying is a common problem, which leads to children who refuse to go to school, and even more extreme are the hikikomori who refuse to interact with other people. That should be enough examples for now.

I think you misunderstood me; I'm not interpreting things in terms of repression, I'm trying to, as you say, understand the context from which such issues arise instead of labelling the results.

[mash27]

Rigid gender and social roles is a good start.

The other side of rigid gender roles is a society where men become increasingly feminized while women become increasingly masculine. This is what is happening in the west and believe me it ain't pretty.

Men and women are very different, men have their needs and unique adaptations and women have theirs. However The west has been brainwashed by feminist discourse for the last 200 years into forgeting the most basic facts about males and females and the nature of their relation. I won't go into this since u can google it but women are better suited than any man to raise children. They have soft round bodies, breats and a maternal instinct. Men have none of that. Men on the other hand are better at visualizing space and have superior mathematical capabilites. In general humour, creativity and intellectual achievement are the realm of man ( not becuase women were excluded as feminsits would have u believe) but because men are by nature more competitive and driven (more testosterone and the need to compete with other males in order to mate with the females).

look around you and u will notice that the best composers (women can play insturments with virtuosity but can't compose), writters, chefs, scientists, philosophers, engineers are all men. On the other hand women who enter these fields are rarely attractive becuase they tend to be masculine in apearance. Look at Margarette Thatcher. Has any man every fantasiesed about her? Or have u ever been turned on by a woman who was a philosopher, mathematician or mechanical enginneer? Any woman who enters these fields does so at the expense of her feminity.

THerefore from this prespective, the gender situation in Japan where men are men and women are women seems more attractive to me. And it's is also better for the women who don't have to juggle with 3 roles like western women who have to be men in the office, wives with their husbands and monthers with their children. Women have lost rather than gained from feminism which is essentially a reactive man hateing movement.


There's also the concept that a good worker is a worker who looks busy.

In the west too.


The average working family man's life at the office is detrimental to his life at home. Divorce is generally considered disgraceful to all parties involved, especially the wife and children, which only keeps unhappy marriages together.

In the west divorce is not a walk in the park either and many professional men also get very little time with their wife and kids. My Brother is a doctor is Switzerland and gets home at 7 or 8 and barely has the time to see his kid. This has more to do with life in general and captialism to a certain extent rather than Japan.


Bullying is a common problem, which leads to children who refuse to go to school, and even more extreme are the hikikomori who refuse to interact with other people. That should be enough examples for now.


Bullying exists everywhere. Wherever spineless whussies are present, bullies will be around the corner. It's the Job of parents to make sure they raise strong confident children who can take care of themselves at school.

Japan has hikikomori and North america has EMO's, starwars geeks and other varieties of degenerate people. All societies have these issues in one form or another.

[Mike Cash]

look around you and u will notice that the best composers (women can play insturments with virtuosity but can't compose), writters, chefs, scientists, philosophers, engineers are all men.

I take it, then, that you are a woman?

[leonmarino]

I take it, then, that you are a woman?
Oh Mike Cash san.. Your posts are always a pleasure to read.. So subtle, yet so clear in content.. :love:

I was going to write a post but after about 15 minutes of thinking, typing and re-typing, and the realisation that is has probably no use and it does not add any value to this thread and the understanding of some people, I gave up.

[nice gaijin]

The other side of rigid gender roles is a society where men become increasingly feminized while women become increasingly masculine. This is what is happening in the west and believe me it ain't pretty. Actually, this is also what is happening in Japan. I have heard a lot of young Japanese women complain about how effeminate Japanese men are these days, and there are a lot of very feminine, frail-looking male celebrities in Japan. It was actually quite startling the first few times I saw such men, as it certainly doesn't mesh with the western conception of physical prowess equals virility and manliness.

Men and women are very different, men have their needs and unique adaptations and women have theirs. However The west has been brainwashed by feminist discourse for the last 200 years into forgeting the most basic facts about males and females and the nature of their relation. I won't go into this since u can google it but women are better suited than any man to raise children. They have soft round bodies, breats and a maternal instinct. Men have none of that. Men on the other hand are better at visualizing space and have superior mathematical capabilites. In general humour, creativity and intellectual achievement are the realm of man ( not becuase women were excluded as feminsits would have u believe) but because men are by nature more competitive and driven (more testosterone and the need to compete with other males in order to mate with the females).
I understand that you're a fan of Nietzsche, you really don't need to explain all this to respond to a comment about rigid gender roles. In fact, I'm not even saying that gender roles are unnatural or wrong, but that it's important for women to be able to choose their own destiny, rather than have society dictate it for them. The Japanese workplace is so stratified that the OL are in a category of their own, exempt from any real form of upward movement in the company, as they are all expected to quit after a few years to settle down and become housewives. To many, this is not such a bad fate, but there are those who are frustrated by this system of discrimination. That is what I mean by rigid gender roles. I'm not arguing that men and women are the same, but that we shouldn't try to prescribe everyone's fate because of their sex.

Or have u ever been turned on by a woman who was a philosopher, mathematician or mechanical enginneer? Any woman who enters these fields does so at the expense of her feminity. are you saying that women who are smart or career-oriented can't be attractive?

THerefore from this prespective, the gender situation in Japan where men are men and women are women seems more attractive to me...
As I said above, the situation in Japan is not necessarily what you might think it is, especially in the younger generations.

There's also the concept that a good worker is a worker who looks busy.In the west too.I think I've addressed that point elsewhere in this thread.

In the west divorce is not a walk in the park either and many professional men also get very little time with their wife and kids. My Brother is a doctor is Switzerland and gets home at 7 or 8 and barely has the time to see his kid. This has more to do with life in general and captialism to a certain extent rather than Japan.You say this is about capitalism, but this relates to my earlier point about "busy workers," and the aforementioned topics of efficiency already covered in the thread. Salary men are not required, but so heavily pressured that they are strongly obligated to stay several hours past "quitting time," and afterwards have other engagements they are obliged to attend, such as going out with their seniors. Many of these men do not get home until late at night or early in the morning, or simply stay at a capsule hotel or some similar lodging. Some companies actually require workers to move closer to the office, away from their families. As I said, for salaried men, office life is especially detrimental to home life. It might also interest you to know that it's almost always the man who receives custody of the children in divorce; the wife will usually return to her own family, if they'll let her.

Bullying exists everywhere. Wherever spineless whussies are present, bullies will be around the corner. It's the Job of parents to make sure they raise strong confident children who can take care of themselves at school.
Japan has hikikomori and North america has EMO's, starwars geeks and other varieties of degenerate people. All societies have these issues in one form or another.You have made so many comparisons to the west, I'm starting to think that you aren't interested in examining Japan in its own context at all...

[Mycernius]

List of female composers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_composers
Quite a wide range from the 9th centruy up to the 21st

On philosophy
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article299061.ece
http://www.philosophos.com/knowledge_base/archives_9/philosophy_questions_934.html
http://www.fjkluth.com/philo.html for a list of Classical female philosophers

Female scientists:
http://www.factmonster.com/spot/whmbios2.html
In fact when someone says mention a famous female scientist I automatically think of Marie Curie

Female Inventors/engineers:
http://inventors.about.com/library/blwomeninventors.htm

Female writers:
I'm not even going to put up a list because there are so many. The Bronte sisters, Jane Austin, George Eliot, J.K.Rowling, Mary Shelley, Aphra Behn, Virginia Woolfe, Catherine Cookson, Hrotsvitha (10th century. Refered to as the first German poet), Murasaki Shikibu-The Tales of Genji, reconised as one of the first novels ever written. The list is endless

Female Chefs:
Mrs Beaton, whose cookbook is a bible amoung many chefs. Delia Smith, very well known English chef, both in books and on TV. Harumi Kurihara, Japanese chef, I've even got her book. Madhur Jaffery, Indian cook, well known in Britain. In fact when I look at my cookbooks most of them have been written by women.

I suggest before you make such sweeping comments on the 'lack' of famous women in various positions that you do a little research. Google is great for this.

[mash27]

I suggest before you make such sweeping comments on the 'lack' of famous women in various positions that you do a little research. Google is great for this.

I didn't say there's a lack of famous women, I just said I believe that in areas that require intellect and creativity, men tend to excel over women. We live in a feminist age and and I'm tired of hearing the same nonsense all the time. The fact that there are a few women who are philosophers doesn't mean anything. In the list the u posted not a single one of them has been influential in any way, they where just exceptions among females, and poor ones at that.


"It is not that they inherently lack a talent or aptitude for philosophy or higher mathematics, but rather that they are more unwilling than men to devote their lives to a frigid space from which the natural and the human have been eliminated."


This vew of philosophy betrays total ignorance of what it truly is. But that is beside the point.

If women are "unwilling" to live in a so called "frigid" space where the "human" has been eliminated then this amounts to saying that the realms of intellect, science, creativity and abstract thinking are not for them becuase it goes against their natural incliniations, which are being in a warm "non-abstract" place where the human is ever present, or in other words in a family with children. It is with abstract thought and organized thinking that women have a problem and in their own vocabulary they call it "frigid space where the human is eliminated".


Thus my point is proven that the traditional division of roles among genders is based on natural affinities, adaptations and inclinations possessed by the sexes.

If u read my previous post carefully u would have noticed that i said that women who enter these fields usually sacrfice their feminity or are not femmine to start with. The world of intellect and abstract thought is masculine in nature and feminine women are not attracted to it.

Conversly, when men enter areas such as secreterial workl, nursing, hair dressing they do so at the expense of their masculinity and they are usually gay. Look around u and u will start to realize that this is fact, not opinion.

[Mycernius]

If u read my previous post carefully u would have noticed that i said that women who enter these fields usually sacrfice their feminity or are not femmine to start with. The world of intellect and abstract thought is masculine in nature and feminine women are not attracted to it.
Conversly, when men enter areas such as secreterial workl, nursing, hair dressing they do so at the expense of their masculinity and they are usually gay. Look around u and u will start to realize that this is fact, not opinion.
Into sterotypes aren't you. Most male hairdressers and nurses I know are not gay. Yet I know gay managers, bouncers etc. I don't think that a lot of female writers have scarificed their feminity for their careers.

[nice gaijin]

we're drifting; this thread is not about gender roles, especially not our western perceptions of them.

[yukio_michael]

This thread has it all: grave-misinformation, self imposed race-hating, and the overal exhaltation of the Japanese as a somewhat other-worldly, kinder, smarter, & better group of people we should all naturally long to become.

[Uncle Frank]

Conversly, when men enter areas such as secreterial workl, nursing, hair dressing they do so at the expense of their masculinity and they are usually gay. Look around u and u will start to realize that this is fact, not opinion.

HE, HE...haven't had anyone in 11 years even hint they think I am gay(as a male nurse); my wife and I would kick the crap out of them!

Uncle Frank

:blush:

[Elizabeth]

This thread has it all: grave-misinformation, self imposed race-hating, and the overal exhaltation of the Japanese as a somewhat other-worldly, kinder, smarter, & better group of people we should all naturally long to become.
I think the values and behaviors extolled here are very dated to pre-economic collapse of the early 1990's that has brought about convulsive changes and profound breakdowns to traditional Japanese society....if there ever was such a time which I seriously doubt judging from the throngs of right-wing, ultranationalist nutcases. You certainly won't find a lot of average Japanese people agreeing with the OP about their own country. :blush:

自分が良く知らないことなのに、人から聞いた話やメディアから
勝手に先入感を持つことは差別につながりますね。 :okashii:

[nice gaijin]

You certainly won't find a lot of average Japanese people agreeing with the OP about their own country. :blush: Yes, this makes me wonder what kind of beliefs and misconceptions people have of my own country as well.

自分が良く知らないことなのに、人から聞いた話やメデ ィアから
勝手に先入感を持つことは差別につながりますね。 :okashii:
賛成です。彼らの意見じゃないようですね。

[ArmandV]

No J-women composers?! Try listening to Michiru Oshima's scores. She's great! (IMHO)

[GodEmperorLeto]

A lot of the "creativity" you're referring to is not a result of less hindrance, but more likely a backlash against the heavy repression Japanese society inflicts on its citizens on a daily basis.

Such as the incredible amounts of (sometimes absurd) violence in movies, or the roles of many female anime characters running sharply contrary to social norms for Japanese society?

As for creativity in general, the 1990s (to me at least) seemed to be an incredible time of creativity both in the United States and in Japan. Risks were taken at the box office in the U.S. that turned out to be intriguing and genre-changing, and several earthshattering anime emerged to set new standards.

Unfortunately, the "aughts" have been much less invigorated. Anime are either DBZ or Eva rip-offs, constantly suffering from the "Oh My God, He's the ONE!"-syndrome, or showcasing a plethora of religious imagery arranged randomly. And American cinema has become remarkably unoriginal as well.

I'm wondering if its not so much a cultural thing with either nation, or if both the U.S. and Japan are suffering from some sort of creative fatigue?

Forced respect is not respect!

True. But is respect in Japan "forced"?

Many will be tempted to point at American culture and the lack of respect within it. In my opinion, the ideals of respect in both culture are quite different and not necessarily easily comparable. That being said, the American ideals regarding respect are lived up to less and less.

Into sterotypes aren't you. Most male hairdressers and nurses I know are not gay. Yet I know gay managers, bouncers etc. I don't think that a lot of female writers have scarificed their feminity for their careers.

There are always problems with stereotypes and broad generalizations. However, people tend to fall within categories. Arguments regarding general trends are totally valid. Pointing out exceptions doesn't negate the fact that large mobs of people tend to move in the same direction. It's part of being a social animal.

But I do agree with your statement that female writers haven't necessarily surrendered their femininity. Neither have all women in the workplace.

Men and women are very different, men have their needs and unique adaptations and women have theirs. However The west has been brainwashed by feminist discourse for the last 200 years into forgeting the most basic facts about males and females and the nature of their relation.

1) You must have some mean huevos to open this can of worms.

2) I hate to say it, but you are right (although I'd pick a more diplomatic term than "brainwashed"). However, feminism is only a small part of a larger postmodern movement that began a cultural revolution in the United States back in the 1960s. Although great achievements were made in civil rights and equalities, like most revolutions, they didn't know when to stop and now the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. In many ways, the nuclear family is suffering, and it isn't just because of feminism that Americans have produced Chuck Palhaniuk's "generation of men raised by women" (i.e. with very weak or nonexistent male role-models/influences), but also because of the transforming American economy. Traditional beliefs and values are under siege, and while some of those values were bad (such as "white superiority"), others are being destroyed, and replaced with a new set of absolutes that are not necessarily more beneficial to American society.

Anyway, what has that got to do with Japan? Well, they seem to be in the throes of a cultural revolution of their own, albeit they are transforming much less rapidly than the American one. Because it seems to be developing slower than the American phenomenon, perhaps the transition will be more constructive and less chaotic and polarizing than it is in the United States.

As an aside, mash27, although you made many good points, you also made a few unwarranted blanket statements. Diplomacy can go a long way in a debate.

[mash27]

This thread has it all: grave-misinformation, self imposed race-hating, and the overal exhaltation of the Japanese as a somewhat other-worldly, kinder, smarter, & better group of people we should all naturally long to become.

That's your own misguided interpretation. Just because I admire certain things about Japan doesn't mean I believe they are other-wordly.

My point is simply that Japan offers a very intersting alternative to the western way of looking at the world and evaluating things and frankly one that's closer to my heart. I'm not the only one to say this. For instance french philosopher Roland Barthes wrote an entire book about "signes" in Japanese culture and he explains how they are the farthest removed from the disgust of Western semiotics and the closest to his own convictions.

I suspect that many in this forum do not have the depth of vision to see some of these things, since most people seem to be intersted in Japan becuase of it video games or anime and once they go to Japan and find that Goku is not shooting energy balls in the tokyo sky they get disapointed.

All I can say is that I find that many things are fundamentally wrong and rotten in the West and that Japan, while not being perfect or problem-free, offers a respite from the bad taste, excessive moralizing and self-righteousness of the west who's bent on reforming the Japanese so that they can be more "western" and learn western things like feeling shame about porn and nudity, disrupting the natural roles of male and female, phasing out perversions and making them "underground", spreading christianity and its ideas of sin, and the beyond and I could go on....

[Tollen]

hehe i do agree with some tings you've said mash ol' chap, christianity and "the west" do seem to think that the american/western way s the "right" way and thus attempt to spoon feed everyone such silly ideas... and in some ways yes some male/female boundarys have been blurred for the worse but to be honest your rant here seems, at points devoid of common sense and just simply an angry man/woman's dislike @ their living situations and environments...

relating to your earlier post along the lines of "men suit some roles better" yes i agree in some ways men do "TEND" to be found in these roles more often but this has little/noothing in common with what men and women are each good for...

they say that a little knowledge is a bad thing and think that You've read too many opinionated culture bashing novels and books... can we have some sort of summation of what you're trying to say here because it is bitty at best and sightly contradictory (though that may jsut be my comprehesion of wtf you're saying)...

you're right in some respects yes but you're overstating how right you are by a looong way...

[mash27]

Such as the incredible amounts of (sometimes absurd) violence in movies, or the roles of many female anime characters running sharply contrary to social norms for Japanese society?.

Many american movies are just as violent as Japanese movies. Humans throughout history have sliced one another with blades, so seeing it on TV is just normal and perhaps even acts as a safety valve to vent excess steam.



Pointing out exceptions doesn't negate the fact that large mobs of people tend to move in the same direction. It's part of being a social animal.

You're a smart guy GodEmperorLeto. Finally someone mentions this point which for some reasons most people are incapable of formulating in their thick heads.



2) I hate to say it, but you are right (although I'd pick a more diplomatic term than "brainwashed"). However, feminism is only a small part of a larger postmodern movement that began a cultural revolution in the United States back in the 1960s. Although great achievements were made in civil rights and equalities, like most revolutions, they didn't know when to stop and now the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. In many ways, the nuclear family is suffering, and it isn't just because of feminism that Americans have produced Chuck Palhaniuk's "generation of men raised by women" (i.e. with very weak or nonexistent male role-models/influences), but also because of the transforming American economy. Traditional beliefs and values are under siege, and while some of those values were bad (such as "white superiority"), others are being destroyed, and replaced with a new set of absolutes that are not necessarily more beneficial to American society.

I hope that Japan dones't turn into a clone of the west. This is why contemprorary western ideals (decadent ideals) should be rejected in order to save Japan from falling into the terrible mess the West is in.

Japan has been able so far to maintain a healthier stance in many areas of life compared to the West (I know there are problems and I'm not saying Japan is perfect) particularly in areas of gender, sexuality and morality. (they are anti-christian in the full sense of the term and for me nothing could be a greater sign of health).
Gender roles, sexual practices and different moral standards among other things in Japan are just fine the way they are even if western propaganda attempts to convince use that japan is in need of reform. It's the west that's in need of reform and BADLY.



As an aside, mash27, although you made many good points, you also made a few unwarranted blanket statements. Diplomacy can go a long way in a debate.

I enjoy being straigntforward and political UNcorrect as much as I can. I save diplomacy for special occasions.

[Dutch Baka]

自分が良く知らないことなのに、人から聞いた話やメデ ィアから
勝手に先入感を持つことは差別につながりますね。 :okashii:

賛成です。彼らの意見じゃないようですね。

Please keep it on English Elizabeth and nice gaijin, so that everyone can understand each other. Thank you

[DoctorP]

Please stop creating new accounts just to try and back up your own poorly thought out arguments! It is just plain childish.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Please stop creating new accounts just to try and back up your own poorly thought out arguments! It is just plain childish.

Ummm, yeah. I'm not mash. He's apparently Canadian, I'm from New Jersey.

Many american movies are just as violent as Japanese movies.

Not denying that. However, American movies (with the exception of some slashers) have toned down on it. Terminator 2 comes to mind (with a very small body count) for example. Quentin Tarrantino is an exception, and obviously heavily influenced by Japanese movies. But anyway...

I hope that Japan dones't turn into a clone of the west. This is why contemprorary western ideals (decadent ideals) should be rejected in order to save Japan from falling into the terrible mess the West is in.

I'm not suggesting that they are, or that they should, for the most part. If they are evolving more slowly, they'll be able to adapt more easily than by having a complete cultural overhaul like the West is experiencing.

By the way, I don't reject Western values, nor do I find them inferior to Eastern/Japanese ways.

(they are anti-christian in the full sense of the term and for me nothing could be a greater sign of health).

Sounds like nice_gaijin was right about you being a fan of Nietzsche.

christianity and "the west" do seem to think that the american/western way s the "right" way and thus attempt to spoon feed everyone such silly ideas...

Silly ideas such as... equality? Liberty? Democracy? Freedom of speech? Ideals that allow some of you to mock and deride your own cultures, institutions, religions, and societies without fear of secret police or religious persecution?

No, maybe the United States shouldn't be force-feeding these ideals to people as some might percieve it, but I can recall the "glorious" empires of Europe that the "sun never set upon" promoting greed, exploitation, authoritarianism, and mercantalism, and sowing the seeds of global mistrust of the West long before the Bushes were elected to the Presidency.

I want to set the record straight here. Japan is a nation like any other, and like those nations, it has a culture. It's culture evolved due to factors more numerous to mention outside of a 5-volume work of epic scholarship, much like any other.

Cultures do not exist in a vacuum. They constantly grow, change and evolve, especially due to cross-cultural contacts. If Japan grows more Western, or if the West steadily grows to adopt more Eastern outlooks, that would not be unusual to history. Ethnocentrism may strengthen a culture for a short time, but over the long-run it loses out. And like it or not, Western culture has a lot to offer. So does Japan.

[feelinjapan]

ok...
I guess that with my "naive" post I created a good debate.
Thank you for all the responses...and I'm glad that people like Mike Cash had such a good laugh at my post, laughing is good for your health.

My post was a mix of the wrong ideas and perceptions that many people get from watching the "flashy", colorful cartoons, video games, etc., the "marketed" image of the country.

I just wanted to see how non-japanese people would react...

I think that Japan is the same as any other nation, 'cause in the end is conformed by human beings, we're all the same, with different lifestyles, of course, but nobody is perfect.

It's just that the Japanese society is new, I mean, they were "reborn", and they're trying to define themselves as a society. In the meantime the world is watching and while many will be amazed by their advancements and rebellion to the social and political structure that had for so many years, other will judge them.

It's like watching a teenager getting his independence and trying new things, trying to impress others with his accomplishments and new ideas.
Japan is reinventing itself, but there's no doubt that many mistakes are being made.

[nice gaijin]

yeah, nice cover :snore:

[Mukade]

My point is simply that Japan offers a very intersting alternative to the western way of looking at the world and evaluating things and frankly one that's closer to my heart. I'm not the only one to say this. For instance french philosopher Roland Barthes wrote an entire book about "signes" in Japanese culture and he explains how they are the farthest removed from the disgust of Western semiotics and the closest to his own convictions.


Barthes knew nothing about Japan before he went there to give a speech. After his short stay, he wrote a book that, although very enlightening regarding the study of semiology, has nothing whatsoever to do with Japan. At best, he came away from his trip with a romanticized vision of a 'mysterious orient,' not unlike many other artists and philosophers from the age of imperialism (although, he honestly probably didn't care, since informing people about Japan was not his agenda when writing 'Empire of Signs').


I suspect that many in this forum do not have the depth of vision to see some of these things, since most people seem to be intersted in Japan becuase of it video games or anime and once they go to Japan and find that Goku is not shooting energy balls in the tokyo sky they get disapointed.


I had and have no interest in video games or animation, and yet I was still very disillusioned when I came here. The fact is that people often have idealised notions of a place they've never visited, and finding out that the notion doesn't match the reality is the rule rather than the exception.

Anyone who states that the Japanese are more efficient, more polite and more creative than (insert country name here) has clearly never been here.

[DoctorP]

Anyone who states that the Japanese are more efficient, more polite and more creative than (insert country name here) has clearly never been here.

Can I insert Mexico into that sentence?

Seriously though...if you have ever worked in a factory in Japan you might say that they are highly efficient! I have been to the Toyota and Nissan plants (all of them) as well as many coal fired, nuclear, and sea water power plants. I would say that they are extremely efficient! If you consider only shopping outlets and combinis then it is obvious that they have a lot to learn.

[nice gaijin]

Also interesting is that many of factory workers (for Toyota at least) are migrant workers. "No One Home" by Daniel Touro Linger (2001) focuses particularly on the Brasileiros and Nikkeijin working for Toyota in Aichi.

[Dutch Baka]

Please stop creating new accounts just to try and back up your own poorly thought out arguments!

Nobody is creating new accounts in this thread CC1.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Also interesting is that many of factory workers (for Toyota at least) are migrant workers. "No One Home" by Daniel Touro Linger (2001) focuses particularly on the Brasileiros and Nikkeijin working for Toyota in Aichi.
Oh yeah, Aichi is teeming with Brazilians. There've become something of a fixture here. Hard to imagine life without them any more. (Yes, I am being serious.)

There are also a lot of Indian curry restaurants around here lately. I think there are a lot of people from Sri Lanka, too.

[Emoni]

Nobody is creating new accounts in this thread CC1.
I once created 8 new accounts and started an entire 10 page argument with myself on a forum before... confused the hell out of everyone. Especially when people started taking my side against me or for me. (If it is even possible to follow the logic of that...) This made even less sense because I made sure none of the posts had any sane matter to them.

Anyway, let me sum up differences for the original poster without using anything like "labeling people" or "generalizations."

US has culture. Japan has "文化"

US has a college system with classes. Japan has "寝る"

US has gang and crime problems. Japan has "忍者"

US has the languages English and Spanish. Japan has "日本語" and "国語"

US has gambling in Nevada. Japan does not have any gambling,
it has "パチンコ" and "スロット"

US, you bathe INSIDE the bathtub. Japan, you bathe in a "ソープランド"

US has no sense of morals. Japan has "ポッキー"

I hope this solves the confusion. I know it might be hard somedays to live and not be able to genetically become Japanese. Japan might wish this too, since they all decided to stop having sex entirely till the population disappears. Someone needs to talk to them about this.

[Mike Cash]

US has gambling in Nevada. Japan does not have any gambling,
it has "パチンコ" and "スロット"


And 宝くじ and ロット and 競馬 and 競輪 and オートレース and 競艇....but, as you said, Japan doesn't have any gambling.

[Emoni]

Ahh, you are right. I forgot about those too.

Ya, it is nice to be in a country that has no gambling at all. The US has numerous locations where gambling is legal, and it really can bring up issues like that. Once again Japan wins out on that issue.

Darn it, I really wish we could just change the US to Japan sometimes...

[leonmarino]

So anyways, back to the original topic! The Japanese are superior in every sense of the word aren't they!

More creative
Better sense of morals
Smart
Good division of roles between men and women

That explains their endless stream of boring game shows with the same celebrities over and over.
The better sense of morals are obvious, the government has ties with the yakuza, which has a lot of ties with businesses ranging from pachinko to real estate.
How smart can you be if you still eat highly contaminated whale meat, take medicine like antibiotics for something as harmless as a flu, just stopped building houses and walls using asbestos last year and fail to speak English after years of education.
And how nice is it that many women submit themselves to being inferior and have to take care of the man and children while the man can't even cook, clean or even lay down a sheet of futon. (The last thing is extreme, but I've experienced it)
Right guys?

[Emoni]

So anyways, back to the original topic! The Japanese are superior in every sense of the word aren't they!

More creative
Better sense of morals
Smart
Good division of roles between men and women

That explains their endless stream of boring game shows with the same celebrities over and over.
The better sense of morals are obvious, the government has ties with the yakuza, which has a lot of ties with businesses ranging from pachinko to real estate.
How smart can you be if you still eat highly contaminated whale meat, take medicine like antibiotics for something as harmless as a flu, just stopped building houses and walls using asbestos last year and fail to speak English after years of education.
And how nice is it that many women submit themselves to being inferior and have to take care of the man and children while the man can't even cook, clean or even lay down a sheet of futon. (The last thing is extreme, but I've experienced it)
Right guys?

Wait wait... I get the feeling that maybe you aren't being very serious about this post.

Anyway, futons are much harder than they look. It is very difficult to put the wooden frame together. I always have trouble getting the peices to lock in so it changes from a couch to a bed correctly.

[Mike Cash]

Wait wait... I get the feeling that maybe you aren't being very serious about this post.

Anyway, futons are much harder than they look. It is very difficult to put the wooden frame together. I always have trouble getting the peices to lock in so it changes from a couch to a bed correctly.

I'm guessing that most Japanese men, even the ones who will sometimes put a sheet on one, would scratch their heads in confusion over the idea of a futon having a frame.

[leonmarino]

I'm guessing that most Japanese men, even the ones who will sometimes put a sheet on one, would scratch their heads in confusion over the idea of a futon having a frame.
This post made me laugh out loud, thanks for making my day! :D

[maushan3]

The difference I noticed between US and Japan's cultures is that japanese have more morals, honor, respect. They are more peaceful people, smarter and they don't restrict themselves with things related to art, they're very creative.

That's good, thing is, when these people fake all the respect and peacefulness, they tend to keep a lot of anger and frustation with themselves and that's when they don't express their feelings and then some committ suicide.

Mauricio