What to do about a racist, exclusionary Japan, & why?

[yukio_michael]

I've often wondered to what extent a country has any responsibility to both openness, through trade, and a progressive if not measured immigration system that welcomes all races on the basis of their ability to contribute to society.

When you read information about immigration programs world wide, countries like Myanmar have a more open an active program for immigration than Japan does. Japan does not persay have ANY form of immigration or migrant program whatsoever, all this despite their being a population decline and a looming labour crisis.

Japan in the past has had a mostly closed society towards trade and immigration. In two noteable cases it was opened by force of diplomacy or through outright force of what the Japanese called gunboat diplomacy. Both in the case of the reaction to Japanese imports and agressive protectionism in the 1990s, and the historical incident of the arival of Admiral Perry.

Before this, in order to assert it's will against immigrants, even those by happenstance through shipwreck, Japan murdered those people unfortunate enough to become shipwrecked on their islands, & crucified the last members of Christians on bluffs above the shore. Those who were allowed rights to trade, notably the Dutch, were limited to special prison-like enclaves. In 1596, the captain of a Spanish galleon crashed in Shikoku, only to have his ship impounded. He boasted that with the increased numbers of Christians, he could oust the shogun. To discourage such threats, Hideyoshi lost no time in marching the captain around the country in disgrace. Later, he would crucify 26, Christian Franciscans and a few Japanese, in Nagasaki City as a further deterrent.Japan has also, a somewhat poor history with asylum seekers, it is a country actually at odds with Amnesty International for the protection of asylum seekers.

Despite having ratified the 1951 Convention on Refugees in 1981, Japan accepts relatively few refugees compared with other countries. The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) reports Japan received 3,544 applications for refugee status between 1982 and 2004 but granted only 330 requests. In 2004 Japan accepted 15 persons as refugees, while the UK accepted 12,925 and the US 21,148. Low numbers aside, there are also a number of problems in Japan's refugee recognition procedures that pose threats to asylum seekers' personal well being. For example, during the application process asylum seekers are often held in detention centres where many suffer mentally and physically from both fear of deportation and poor conditions. Between 2001 and 2002, several ethnic Hazara Afghani asylum seekers detained in these centres attempted suicide. Responding to criticism of its harsh refugee recognition procedure, the Japanese government amended its Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act (ICRRA) in 2004 for the first time in 23 years and the amended measures have been in force since May 2005. There have been improvements, but a number of important issues were not addressed.Part One: here (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=17&ItemID=9778)

Part Two: here (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9779).

Those immigrants able to live in work in Japan are permited to do so on the condition that they give up their own ethnicity, names, history, in order to become part of the so-called racially homogenous Japanese society. On the one side, Japan makes individuals seeking inclusion into Japanese society deny their own ethnicities & histories, while at the same time, institutionalizing an ideal that foreign residents are not only dangerous but unwelcome, leaving them permanantly excluded or recognized as members of such a society.

Last, Japan does not have a very good record where racism is concered. At best Japan is considered to be passive racists -Lie, John "Multi-Ethnic Japan". It is a racism I think that exists due to ignorance of things like "Little Black Sambo"... Take such a statement by a regional politicican Kokubo Masao, "We know in our heads that discrimination is bad, but our feelings are different... When you shake hands with someone who is completely black, you feel your hands getting black."These statements, are largely typical of politicians in Japan.

Philosopher Allan Bloom made the statement [Japanese people] "seem to be racists. They consider themselves superior; they firmly resist immigration; they exclude even Koreans who have lived for generations among them."

I feel lastly that the caucasian foreigner may be afforded a limited but most favourable acceptance, at the expense of any real long term acceptance... certainly along with Europe, the best acceptance of all the non-Asian foreigners though at the very least. Where a European or American caucasian immigrant may be looked upon favourably initially by limited contact, for certain his or her inclusion in any area or neighborhood will be looked upon with suspicion, due to the glaring fact that he or she is not in any way, Asian.

My question is this? What actual responsibilites to racism-awareness, human rights, immigration reform, awareness of inevitable hetrogenity, does Japan actually have? What will they ever actually address?

I don't feel like Japan will ever change. They act at times the same way they have acted for hundreds upon hundreds of years of history. I don't suppose that everyone thinks this way, that everyone shares the same opinion, but in my limited experience, I have found that even those I have known through a random sampling have ideas about races and the Japanese race in particular that seem to be the products of just such an extended isolation and institutionalized racism.

I don't see a very bright future for Japan, wheras race relations go. Japan may always have a population of non-Japanese, what John Lie refered to as (and I like this term) "non-Japanese Japanese", but I fear that their position in society will always be abject & abased by the government of Japan; a government whom set the tone of racism & furthermore do not ever make actions to make outsiders believe the contrary.

[yukio_michael]

There are some spelling mistakes, and perhaps a few grammatical errors, but the editing system being what it is--- I would have to re-insert all the carriage returns again (as you know), a somewhat grim prospect.

Please accept my appologies for this.

[ArmandV]

Basically, Japan can do what it wants to do. You or I may not like it but it is what it is. However, I should point out that it seems hypocritical that they have a Statue of Liberty replica in Odaiba with, I presume, the tablet with "Give me your poor..." text welcoming immigrants if they should have racist policies.

[pipokun]

Well, what Hideyoshi really upset was the slave trade. The first Japanese in Argentina was way back in early 17th. And what the 3rd shogun, Iemitsu, bothered was a lot of Chinese belonging to former Ming Dynasty coming to Japan to ask her to save the collapsed dynasty from non-Han Chinese Qing Dynasty.
Maybe I told you before, but Commodore Perry opened Japan's ports and imposed unequal treaties with Japan, but the US was the first country revised them. This is one of the reasons I hate to be an anti-US liberal head.

yukio_michael, you read Japanese, right?
Just check out the double standard in Japanese/English sites, pro-South Korea organisation in Japan. Even the democratic nation support group has the double standard, just imagine what the DPRK supporting group has...
http://mindan.org/index.php

Shokei Arai was a naturalised Japanese with his Korean background.
He graduated from Tokyo University, then got a job at the Ministry of Finance, and became a member of the ruling LDP, though he commited suiside.
http://www.kt.rim.or.jp/~tro/arai/index.htm

[anzen]

I've often wondered to what extent a country has any responsibility to both openness, through trade, and a progressive if not measured immigration system that welcomes all races on the basis of their ability to contribute to society.
I think the people of each country have the right to decide what they want to do. Even better when it is a democracy.
Our choice is to decide what to do if we don't like their decision. Stay and grumble or find somewhere else to live.
History tends to show that countries that encourage immigration have done so because they have to (labour shortages etc). When they have everyone they think they need, the fences go back up.

[osias]

A multi-ethnic country has a problem of its own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Japan needs a labor force, but a large influx of foreign laborers may lead to racial tensions, there are costs to be paid. I think it will take a slow process.

[GodEmperorLeto]

A multi-ethnic country has a problem of its own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

If you are interested, take a look at ethnic and religious tensions in the Ottoman Empire before the genocides began. In addition, the April 1992 riots weren't just reactions to Rodney King, they were also sitting on top of a socio-economic powderkeg, made worse by an incredibly corrupt (by American standards) police force.


I don't feel like Japan will ever change. They act at times the same way they have acted for hundreds upon hundreds of years of history.

They probably won't. That's not necessarily me being pessimistic. It's an historian's general assessment. After lurking for a few months and reading many of Maciamo's posts, I've come to a number of conclusions, but most important (given that I know several Japanese who have come to the U.S. for school or work, or simply to live) is that I believe individual Japanese don't want to be racist, and many do not realize they may be acting in a racist manner. But since they are part of a society, they behave in that manner. They go along with the crowd because preserving social harmony is a very important part of their lives.

The depiction of Japanese characters in anime as cosmopolitan and accepting of foreigners is very far from reality. However, it gives a peek into the Japanese psyche. In many ways, anime doesn't depict the world as it is, but to some Japanese artists/writers it depicts the world as it should be (hence the Japanese are cosmopolitan, and their women carry guns/swords, have huge boobs, kick ***, and chew bubble gum). This, in a roundabout way, recognizes their own cultural limitations and takes them on in a very non-confrontational manner.

Now, granted, most of the Japanese I know are emmigrants (either temporary or permanent). There is a huge difference between the temporary and permanent emmigrants, too. The temporary ones are interested in foreign culture, but often maintain a small degree of aloofness. But the ones who intend to stay almost "fall in love" with my country. They want both the good and the bad that it has to offer. I see the permanent emmigrants as almost exceptions to the "typical" Japanese in many senses.

I've often wondered to what extent a country has any responsibility to both openness, through trade, and a progressive if not measured immigration system that welcomes all races on the basis of their ability to contribute to society.

Actually many countries have incredibly rigorous immigration policies. The U.S. and Canada (and I think Australia) have very loose and welcoming ones. It is easy to get a Visa to the U.S. compared to other nations. Many have been complaining about the Mexican illegal immigrant policies (claiming they are bad), but few realize how strict Mexico's policies are. There is a huge Korean population living in sections of Mexico that are barred from 75% of jobs in Mexico because they are not native born. They can pretty much only do the most menial tasks (housecleaning, maid, janitor, etc.) or open restaurants, that's it. Immigrants to Mexico cannot even work in factories. I hear Holland is even worse than Mexico.

So, Japan is definitely not the only country with incredibly strict immigration policies. In fact, I have heard that their government and businesses are incredibly welcoming of foreign laborers (especially in construction), but I don't know anything for certain about that.

[Rich303]

Absolutely first class post !

I've been trying to stay out of the 'Racism in Japan' type threads, as if it's any worse than the rest of the world - but it's nice to read this assessment of the situation.

There have been serious race-related issues all over the world, such as ethnic cleansing and persecution.

People often think the UK is so multi-cultural and open-minded (which it often is), but there are still people who will hate on racial grounds - ranging from general suspicion to putting an axe in someone's head.

I don't get the impression that the Japanese are anymore racist than anywhere else.
Maybe just a little cautious, but that's not a bad thing.

[yukio_michael]

So, Japan is definitely not the only country with incredibly strict immigration policies. In fact, I have heard that their government and businesses are incredibly welcoming of foreign laborers (especially in construction), but I don't know anything for certain about that.I'm not saying that Japan is the only country with strict (I'd call them exclusionary, not strict but...), Immigration policies, but I'm not comparing Japan to East Timor, I'm comparing Japan to England, the United States, Australia, the other G8 nations... I'd leave out France now, as France is begining to show similar exclusionary practices in response to the riots of this past year, are also in fact quite concerned that new residents become 'part of french society', which smacks of the same sort of ethno-centric bias that Japan shows.

The French authorities have traditionally been very protective of their domestic labour force, and put many bureaucratic obstacles in the way of companies wishing to recruit foreign workers. Their attitude is changing due to an acute shortage of IT professionals which is affecting the performance of many French companies.

New procedures have recently been introduced to make the process faster and easier. However, despite these significant improvements, France remains one of the most heavily 'protected' labour markets in Europe.

In fact, I have heard that their government and businesses are incredibly welcoming of foreign laborers (especially in construction), but I don't know anything for certain about that.Factories are generally welcoming of foreign labour, but that may be simply because they fill jobs that young Japanese do not. Japans labour needs in part-time (read lowpay, undesirable) jobs have been filled by mothers, aunts, grandmothers, then by regional migrant workers, and then finally, replaced by foreign workers from neighboring Asian countries.

When polled some 77% of the factories said that their main reason for hiring the foreign workers was due to "inability to hire Japanese for those positions...". Remember these are relatively dirty and difficult jobs, and like any country they tend to (unfortunately) be taken up by those willing to work the hardest for the least ammount of money and bennefit.

Brokerage of labour to these industries, including the adult industries including prostitution are usually done by Yakuza, so there is an element of human-trafficking to it as well. These labourers, though un-welcome and un-recognized will probably remain protected simply due to the fact that they make the factories run.

[yukio_michael]

I don't get the impression that the Japanese are anymore racist than anywhere else. Maybe just a little cautious, but that's not a bad thing.I think that when we look for racism, we look for Nazi flags and burning crosses, that's obvious racism, isn't it?

I think the more nebulous aspects of racism cause us trouble when we try to define it. Do any of us look unfavourably or expect a certain trait of another simply because of their race? I think so, and these are forms of racism that you speak of being no more or less inherent.

However, Japan as a major industrialized nation has every chance in the world to be an open country, to assert this fact, but they choose not to, in any way. I suppose you can't fault a country for something it never claimed to be in the first place: open, & welcoming.

The word, "Yokoso!" at the airport just doesn't cut it. I'd like to assert that this has nothing to do with any of my personal experiences... As the only white person in a small prefecture, I would now expect Japanese people to be warry of me... tollerance hasn't exactly blossomed in Japan, but I never experienced what anyone would qualify as "exclusion".

I also, out of fear stayed away from onsen... it's a shame now I think, that my own perhaps un-necissary fear of being rejected made me miss some opportunities... but I feel that this is the environment that Japan fosters for anyone who has cared to look around for the antithesis to the "Japan is the greatest country in the world" argument.

ed: I'm running out of minutes on this station and will have to pick up the conversation tommorow, however, I'd like to add finally that what I think most people think of as politeness and refrain, is closer to something like silent-apathy where Japan's tollerance of foreigners is concerned. I think this is one of the greatest misunderstandings about Japan's acceptance of outsiders, however it shows itself.

[anzen]

I also, out of fear stayed away from onsen... it's a shame now I think, that my own perhaps un-necissary fear of being rejected made me miss some opportunities... but I feel that this is the environment that Japan fosters for anyone who has cared to look around for the antithesis to the "Japan is the greatest country in the world" argument.

No offence, but this may explain your other feelings towards Japan.
Part of the beauty and appeal of Japan to some people is the uniqueness of its institutions. That same appeal also causes other people to feel very uncomfortable.

[yukio_michael]

No offence, but this may explain your other feelings towards Japan.
Part of the beauty and appeal of Japan to some people is the uniqueness of its institutions. That same appeal also causes other people to feel very uncomfortable.I have nothing against onsen, but I've read more than several texts, more than a few firsthand accounts ---seen more than a few no-gaijin signs on onsen to believe that Japanese people don't exactly feel that gaijin should be present at them.

The uniqueness of Japan's institutions if you will are precisesly the reason I love the country; from the un-hip Akiba-maid bars, to the massages you get while your hair is cut, from the temples to the bustling train stations, I do love the country, it's mixture of industry and nature, everywhere... but I feel that this love doesn't indebt me to silence concerning racism.

[Rich303]

I have nothing against onsen, but I've read more than several texts, more than a few firsthand accounts ---seen more than a few no-gaijin signs on onsen to believe that Japanese people don't exactly feel that gaijin should be present at them.
The uniqueness of Japan's institutions if you will are precisesly the reason I love the country; from the un-hip Akiba-maid bars, to the massages you get while your hair is cut, from the temples to the bustling train stations, I do love the country, it's mixture of industry and nature, everywhere... but I feel that this love doesn't indebt me to silence concerning racism.


I think I know what you're getting at Micheal - it's not always a clear cut issue. I've seen some examples of 'no-Gaijin' signs.(at some bars and restaurants too) I guess Onsen is quite an intimate, personal issue for many people.
I respect what you are saying and your balanced view.

[osias]

I've never been to onsen in japan before, but from what I hear, so many gaijins do not follow the rules, like some of them bathe themselves with soap on their body. No soap is allowed in the bath tub, the water is supposed to be kept clean. It's the cultural difference that makes the Japanese feel uncomfortable. In some places, there is an instruction for gaijins on how to bathe. Local rules should be taught properly so anybody can go to onsen, and foreign visitors should be willing to learn from other Japanese.　

[pipokun]

...
but I feel that this love doesn't indebt me to silence concerning racism.
Be more specific.
So far, no vigorous backlash against the crimes, either.

[osias]

"Does diversity make us unhappy?"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/happiness_formula/5012478.stm

[yukio_michael]

Be more specific.
So far, no vigorous backlash against the crimes, either.Thankyou for the links earlier, I haven't gotten the chance to read them yet, I have only a limited ammount of time at the library, while I wait to get another computer at home...

...One example I would qualify as racism is the classification of indigenous non-Japanese as 'gaijin'... I have people of all different ethnic backgrounds living near me, it's often when I'm over at my sisters I hear people speaking Arabic next door, a few neighborhoods away it's Polish, and down in another neighborhood there is an enclave of Japanese, a few blocks away, Indian, ...I don't consider any of these people to be foreigners...

I know that some people may not classify gaikokujin as foreigner, but I think it's actual use is in terms of us and not-us... The Japanese are a race of human beings, not a seperate entity--- One would hope that the idea of racial supremacy died out with WII but I don't feel so.

[osias]

...One example I would qualify as racism is the classification of indigenous non-Japanese as 'gaijin'... I have people of all different ethnic backgrounds living near me, it's often when I'm over at my sisters I hear people speaking Arabic next door, a few neighborhoods away it's Polish, and down in another neighborhood there is an enclave of Japanese, a few blocks away, Indian, ...I don't consider any of these people to be foreigners...
I know that some people may not classify gaikokujin as foreigner, but I think it's actual use is in terms of us and not-us... The Japanese are a race of human beings, not a seperate entity--- One would hope that the idea of racial supremacy died out with WII but I don't feel so.
Are you referring to my post? "Gaijin" itself is not really a racist term. Whether it is racist or not, it all depends on the context.

I never know anyone referring to indigenous non-japanese as gaijin in daily usage. There is another term: 'zainichi.'

You seem to apply your American standard to Japan, but America is not the global standard. Calling Japan racist based on your standard seems like a manifestation of American supremacy to me. e.g. The name "Sambo" is not a racial slur in Japan, ignorance of it does not show that Japanese are racist, it only shows that japan is unfamiliar with American culture.

Japan and the US are two different societies, sometimes simple comparisons do not work.

[yukio_michael]

You seem to apply your American standard to Japan, but America is not the global standard. Calling Japan racist based on your standard seems like a manifestation of American supremacy to me. e.g.No, I'm following up with something that pipokun said... For example, on television in Japan, when they have a contest of say, gaijin talent vs. non gaijin talent, they do group the Korean & Japanese Americans on the gaijin side... I just don't feel that this sort of diferentiating is very healthy for a society. This is as recent as last year.

Perhaps my standard is based on America as you say, simply because that is the country of my birth, but I'd prefer not to let countries and nations influence my ideas about race, so I'd prefer to think of it as a humanistic standard... what we should expect of people regardless of their origin.

The name "Sambo" is not a racial slur in Japan, ignorance of it does not show that Japanese are racist, it only shows that japan is unfamiliar with American culture.I don't agree that ignorance of a crime is a good excuse for commiting it, and I also don't agree that ignorance of what are in fact, well-known stereotypes are any excuse for their acceptance in society.

The problem with Japan is that where black-racism is concerned, the claim is that it was all entirely learned from the United States & then at the same time there is this certain self-claimed ignorance where things such as Little Black Sambo are concerned. You can't just pick and choose when you want to claim ignorance, where it suits you... it's convenient to be ignorant of racism... but, this ignorance just isn't warrented.

However, I do think the imageary of Little Black Sambo is itself sufficient for anyone with at least a reasonable intelligence to infer what the intended meaning is.

[yukio_michael]

I want to add that I think the main responsibility is on the government of Japan to institutionalize ideas and policies that foster a better acceptance of foreigners, moreover foreign workers who make Japan their long-term residency. I think this is just the responsible thing to do.

My dealings with Japanese people on a somewhat regular basis are not any basis for my ideas about racism in Japan, though in the past, they have been. I'd like to discourage people from thinking that I am in some way disparaging Japanese people in general...

Racism however seems to be a polemic topic, none ever want to admit it exists, and fewer still know what to do to stop it in all but it's most obvious forms.

[osias]

No, I'm following up with something that pipokun said... For example, on television in Japan, when they have a contest of say, gaijin talent vs. non gaijin talent, they do group the Korean & Japanese Americans on the gaijin side... I just don't feel that this sort of diferentiating is very healthy for a society. This is as recent as last year.
What program is it?
Usually, Japanese Americans are not really gaijins, they are nikkeijins.

I don't agree that ignorance of a crime is a good excuse for commiting it, and I also don't agree that ignorance of what are in fact, well-known stereotypes are any excuse for their acceptance in society.
The problem with Japan is that where black-racism is concerned, the claim is that it was all entirely learned from the United States & then at the same time there is this certain self-claimed ignorance where things such as Little Black Sambo are concerned. You can't just pick and choose when you want to claim ignorance, where it suits you... it's convenient to be ignorant of racism... but, this ignorance just isn't warrented.
However, I do think the imageary of Little Black Sambo is itself sufficient for anyone with at least a reasonable intelligence to infer what the intended meaning is.
Did Japan learn black-racism from the US? For example?

And how did Little Black Sambo turn out to be racist in the US? It used to be one of children's favorite stories? So it wasn't considered racist at all?

[osias]

Racism however seems to be a polemic topic, none ever want to admit it exists, and fewer still know what to do to stop it in all but it's most obvious forms.
Perhaps, many just simply do not notice, when they happen to be on the majority side.

But I believe not all human conflicts between groups of people are due to racism.

[yukio_michael]

What program is it?One of the typical kanji-education programs run by the ministry to teach native Japanese the kanji they are forgetting due to the use of computers etc... Ran on a weekly basis when I was in Japan, I forget the title sorry.

But I believe not all human conflicts between groups of people are due to racism.Well, of course, I agree with that.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Usually, Japanese Americans are not really gaijins, they are nikkeijins.
Interesting. I can't find it for some reason, but there is a thread about Japanese Brazilians returning to Japan after a generation or so and being treated absolutely awfully and called "gaijin". If I find it, I'll post it.

In addition, a Japanese American I know is working at Shoen Gakuen teaching English, and he has informed me that he is, without a doubt, considered to be 100% gaijin, regardless that he can trace every ancestor back to Japan.

But I believe not all human conflicts between groups of people are due to racism.
Definitely, absolutely, positively true. Although I don't think Yukio_Michael was trying to argue that point.

Racism however seems to be a polemic topic, none ever want to admit it exists, and fewer still know what to do to stop it in all but it's most obvious forms.
Part of this is, I'd guess, simple "Japaneseness". Instead of debate it, they seek to preserve wa (social harmony). Western culture argues that if society is wrong, it is the individual's responsibility to resist it and change it (often citing silent/indifferent German bystanders to the Nazi Third Reich as more evil than Hitler himself). However, Japan does not have that concept, it is wholly alien to them.

So, when the Prime Minister's heir apparent says that he intends to continue visiting the memorial cemetary to the WWII dead and pay homage to men convicted of war crimes, everyone in Japan sits back and says it's okay.

Indeed, Mishima Yukio found the current government a complete abandonment of bushido and demanded people re-adopt the samurai code and revere the emperor. His eventual suicide was met with ("reverent") silence, because they are highly resistant to challenges to social harmony.

Interestingly enough, gaijin often happen to suffer from a complete ignorance of wa. This doesn't help their standing much in Japanese society.

[Glenn]

Indeed, Mishima Yukio found the current government a complete abandonment of bushido and demanded people re-adopt the samurai code and revere the emperor. His eventual suicide was met with ("reverent") silence, because they are highly resistant to challenges to social harmony.

I thought it was more of a ceremonial thing that he really didn't believe that much in. My understanding of it is that he thought that there should be some purpose in life, some goal, and he just picked that up because there wasn't much else for him. And the public's reaction was more of shock and disbelief than anything else. I'm just going off of memory, though.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I thought it was more of a ceremonial thing that he really didn't believe that much in. My understanding of it is that he thought that there should be some purpose in life, some goal, and he just picked that up because there wasn't much else for him. And the public's reaction was more of shock and disbelief than anything else. I'm just going off of memory, though.

From what I've read, he was serious about that whole bushido thing. Serious enough to commit seppuku when he failed to overthrow the government.

And by reaction, I mean modern (i.e. current) reaction, not immediate. I should have written "how they currently view him", now that I think of it.

[osias]

But I believe not all human conflicts between groups of people are due to racism.
Definitely, absolutely, positively true. Although I don't think Yukio_Michael was trying to argue that point.

What i mean is that he seems to attribute a thing to racism, when it has nothing/little to do with it.

[yukio_michael]

What i mean is that he seems to attribute a thing to racism, when it has nothing/little to do with it.Maybe it's not racism with a capital "R", with nazi-flags and burning crosses, but I still don't see what is not racist about self-agrandised ethnic exclusion, & consistant labeling & profiling... sorry.

I think the difference is that I'm talking about government policy & you are refering to the population at large. One is effected by the other, but policy is different than social mores.

[osias]

I think the difference is that I'm talking about government policy & you are refering to the population at large. One is effected by the other, but policy is different than social mores.
You are also talking about onsen, tv shows, etc.
Maybe we should narrow down a bit.

[Glenn]

Does that mean that you think that the "no gaijin" signs at onsen aren't racist, or at least race-based in some way?

[Maciamo]

Excellent thread !


I don't see a very bright future for Japan, wheras race relations go. Japan may always have a population of non-Japanese, what John Lie refered to as (and I like this term) "non-Japanese Japanese", but I fear that their position in society will always be abject & abased by the government of Japan; a government whom set the tone of racism & furthermore do not ever make actions to make outsiders believe the contrary.

I realised that slowly after a few months in Japan, then it grew more and more evident as time passed and I understood what people were saying around me. I finally left Japan because I got hundreds of confirmation that the Japanese will always see a Caucasian as just an "outsider that will never belong to their society" (in other terms, a "gaijin") and that the vast majority of the Japanese will always have strong racisto-nationalistic prejudices that make them feel unique and superior, often unconsciously. Those who are not like that usually end up leaving Japan for a Western country (but that does not mean that all Japanese living abroad are free of such prejudices).

[Maciamo]

However, I should point out that it seems hypocritical that they have a Statue of Liberty replica in Odaiba with, I presume, the tablet with "Give me your poor..." text welcoming immigrants if they should have racist policies.
My guess is that most Japanese, including the politicians who have agreed on having that replica in Odaiba, do not know that there is a text "Give me your poor..." on the statue, or they do not understand it.:blush:

[Maciamo]

I think the people of each country have the right to decide what they want to do. Even better when it is a democracy.

Most Belgians and French want illegal immigrants and immigrants with a criminal record out of their country, but they cannot have it done because some politicians or international organisations say otherwise. Why should Japan be exempt ? I will never admit the right of Japan or its people to decide to limit immigration or expel the foreigners they do not like as long as all European countries will not have the same right.

[ArmandV]

My guess is that most Japanese, including the politicians who have agreed on having that replica in Odaiba, do not know that there is a text "Give me your poor..." on the statue, or they do not understand it.:blush:

It would be interesting to hear their answer if you told them what the tablet says and means. It may be a little shocking to them.

[Maciamo]

Actually many countries have incredibly rigorous immigration policies. The U.S. and Canada (and I think Australia) have very loose and welcoming ones. It is easy to get a Visa to the U.S. compared to other nations.
In many Western European countries, immigrants do not even need visas anymore. Illegal immigrants tend to get regularised periodically (e.g. every two years) and obtain the right to stay, and sometimes even citizenship. In Belgium there does not seem to be visas at all for a lot of people, including those married to an EU national (like my wife). This in fact means that there is no visa for them for all the EU as there are no more passport checks or borders between EU countries (minus the UK and Ireland who are not in the Schengen visa zone).
I hear Holland is even worse than Mexico.
Certainly not. Here are the new (tougher) immigration policies (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23884) for the Netherlands, as they were much too loose until now. Even this tougher version is still looser than immigration policies in Japan, Canada and Australia.

[Maciamo]

I've been trying to stay out of the 'Racism in Japan' type threads, as if it's any worse than the rest of the world - but it's nice to read this assessment of the situation.
There have been serious race-related issues all over the world, such as ethnic cleansing and persecution.
People often think the UK is so multi-cultural and open-minded (which it often is), but there are still people who will hate on racial grounds - ranging from general suspicion to putting an axe in someone's head.
Modern Japanese are certainly not racist in the sense that they want to do some ethnic cleansing, kill foreigners or anything violent. They are a quite peaceful, indirect and hypocritical bunch. So Japanese-style racism is also peaceful, indirect and hypocritical. It is politicians saying that Japan tries its best to accommodate foreigners, but actually make all it can to curb immigration. It is Japanese people who say they are not racist, but have aberrant racist ideas like "the Japanese were originally farmers while Westerners were hunters" (while agriculture came to Japan about 2700 years after Europe ! => see article (http://www.jref.com/culture/misconceptions_prejudices.shtml#Farmers)) or that foreigners will never be able to enjoy traditional Japanese arts or speak properly Japanese because they are not Japanese, but the Japanese can very well appreciate European Renaissance painters or classical music.

What differentiate Japan from Western countries on racism is how uniform the opinion of Japanese people is of "foreigners" (as a whole) and how similar are their racist ideas. It's like they were all brainwashed the same textbook of nationalistic ideologies ! In contrast, in Western (and most other) countries, there are almost as many different opinions and attitudes as there are people. I do not mean to say that the Japanese have the exact same attitude toward foreigners, but the range and types of attitudes and ideas is much more limited. It's like instead of having 1 million different positions, there are 5 or 10 for 127 million inhabitants, with clear trends coming back every few people you discuss with.

[Maciamo]

On a side note, the Japanese most commonly feign ignorance when accused of racism. I think it would be interesting to relate that to the fact that Japan is a ([url=http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=354065&postcount=4]see thread (]shame-driven society[/url)) and people do not have the same internal moral compass as Westerners, who are principally guilt-driven. This lack of moral awareness of what is right and wrong does induce some kind of ignorance regarding "politically correct" or sensitive issues from other societies. In Japan something is wrong if it is defined as wrong by society or clearly offend/hurt someone. Expressing an idea, even racist, held by the whole Japanese society cannot be seen as "wrong" as everybody thinks the same way. In Japan, if everybody does it, it is right, no matter what reason and conscience tells you.

[Maciamo]

Are you referring to my post? "Gaijin" itself is not really a racist term. Whether it is racist or not, it all depends on the context.

Check this thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24406).

I never know anyone referring to indigenous non-japanese as gaijin in daily usage. There is another term: 'zainichi.'

Zainichi means "(residing) in Japan". It is used for US Troops in Japan, for example. I have always heard that non-Japanese born and raised in Japan or naturalised Japanese referred to as "gaijin" in Japan.

You seem to apply your American standard to Japan, but America is not the global standard. Calling Japan racist based on your standard seems like a manifestation of American supremacy to me.

How do you explain that I am a European and yet agree with Yukio Michael ?

[GodEmperorLeto]

Certainly not. Here are the new (tougher) immigration policies (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23884) for the Netherlands, as they were much too loose until now. Even this tougher version is still looser than immigration policies in Japan, Canada and Australia.
Didn't know that. You learn something new every day.

It is Japanese people who say they are not racist, but have aberrant racist ideas like "the Japanese were originally farmers while Westerners were hunters" (while agriculture came to Japan about 2700 years after Europe !)...
They are constantly finding earlier and earlier signs of highly advanced civilization throughout Europe. Magnificently vast pyramids, megalithic monuments, and other ruins continually crop up from earlier and earlier periods, providing more and more evidence of sophisticated sedentary populations with a highly effective government.

or that foreigners will never be able to enjoy traditional Japanese arts or speak properly Japanese because they are not Japanese, but the Japanese can very well appreciate European Renaissance painters or classical music.
Actually, it is because of those ethnocentric concepts that many Japanese will not truly understand Western culture, despite their claims. They have numerous preconcieved notions, and a skewed concept of moral relativity. These, including their concept of a society overriding an individual run against the mindset the West has inherited from Athens and Jerusalem.

[ricecake]

A multi-ethnic country has a problem of its own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Japan needs a labor force, but a large influx of foreign laborers may lead to racial tensions, there are costs to be paid. I think it will take a slow process.



It's wise for Japan NOT TO EXPORT foreigners to their land,multi-ethnic society can lead to racial tensions eventually.

Japan can implement a managable temporary employment-visa program.

I don't see why we nail Japan on immigration issue,this is an island nation over-populated with 150 million citizens of it's own.

[ricecake]

What i mean is that he seems to attribute a thing to racism, when it has nothing/little to do with it.

XENOPHOBIC is a better word for Japanese attitudes toward " foreigners ".

This is how Chinese generally perceived Japanese in those behaviors,NOT RACISM as many Western put it.

[caster51]

Originally Posted by Maciamo
My guess is that most Japanese, including the politicians who have agreed on having that replica in Odaiba, do not know that there is a text "Give me your poor..." on the statue, or they do not understand it.

that was a gift from france in year of japan -france as friendship.
so , the one in NY is also same like that?

[pipokun]

XENOPHOBIC is a better word for Japanese attitudes toward " foreigners ".
This how Chinese generally perceived Japanese in those behaviors,NOT RACISM as many Western put it.

You can find China Towns in Japan. Are Chinese as xenophobic as other Asian communites?
I don't know many Japanese Americans in the US, my friends are from the South America. But as far as I know, no yakuza or Nikkei gang, even though there are organised crime organisations in their home country, Japan.
Just work hard.

[pipokun]

Modern Japanese are certainly not racist in the sense that they want to do some ethnic cleansing, kill foreigners or anything violent. They are a quite peaceful, indirect and hypocritical bunch. So Japanese-style racism is also peaceful, indirect and hypocritical.
...

I still prefer peaceful, indirect and hypocritical to shot or kill others for just an MP3 player.

[ricecake]

that was a gift from france in year of japan -france as friendship.
so , the one in NY is also same like that?

Yeah .... NY's statue of liberty was a present from France back in the 19th century.

[ricecake]

You can find China Towns in Japan. Are Chinese as xenophobic as other Asian communites?
I don't know many Japanese Americans in the US, my friends are from the South America. But as far as I know, no yakuza or Nikkei gang, even though there are organised crime organisations in their home country, Japan.
Just work hard.

You have Brazilian-born Nikkei friends in Japan ? Can they speak Japanese well ?

Here in San Francisco area,a local Japanese channel aired this Japanese TV dorama " Naru et Hatsu " with English subtitle late December of 2005.It's about a poor Hokkaido family's heart-wrenching story of their journey to Brazil as " indentured farm workers ".My favorite beautiful and talented Japanese actress Ryoko Yonukura starred in it.

I only know there are some 100,000 Taiwan Chinese took up permanent residency in Japan.

Chinese define XENOPHOBIC in the sense of " exclusiveness NOT RACISM in Western mindset " for Koreans and Japanese as they're are not incline to accept other Asians and Non-Asians in their social circles or society.

[osias]

Does that mean that you think that the "no gaijin" signs at onsen aren't racist, or at least race-based in some way?
I'm just making a suggestion to focus on a topic like he says: "government policy"
I think the difference is that I'm talking about government policy & you are refering to the population at large.
He claims that he's talking about government policy, but it doesn't look like that. he's talking about racist onsen, racist tv shows, etc. i'm just responding to the topics he throws at us.

But if you are interested in how the "no gaijin" signs in Hokkaido started...
・小樽の浴場の外国人拒否 ロシア紙「“お風呂紛争”ぼっ発」 習慣の違い指摘
【モスクワ4日本田良一】「日出ずる国・日本で、わが� 剔D員たちは風呂(ふろ)にも入れず、不潔な格好で歩い� ﾄる」―。ロシアで若者を中心に人気が高い日刊コムソ� ｃ潟Xカヤ・プラウダ紙は二日、こんな見出しを付けて� ｬ樽市の一部入浴施設がロシア人など外国人の利用を拒� ﾛしている問題をユーモラスに紹介した。「北海道の小樽市で『お風呂紛争』 がぼっ発した」とセンセーショナルな書き出しで始まるものの、記事の内容はいた って客観的。 銭湯などが「外国人お断り」とした経緯について、同紙 はロシアと日本の入浴習慣の違いを指摘しながら「本来 、体を洗う場所で、わが同胞たちは酒を飲んではバカ騒 ぎ。揚げ句の果てに、日本の伝統では丁寧に体を洗って 入らなければならないのに、洗い場からいきなり風呂に 飛び込んだからたまらない」と、日本の報道も交えて描 いた。 記事に添えられたイラストは、ロシアで使われている蒸 気風呂「バーニャ」をあしらい、裸の女性が「日本人を『フロだたき (袋だたき)』にしてやるわ!」としゃれのめしている。( 北海道新聞より)
It started out with a bunch of russians who don't know the respect for the local culture. Is this a racism against the Japanese, rather than the other way round? At least, the motivation to exclude foreigners was not racist, but it turned out to be.

[pipokun]

Chinese define XENOPHOBIC in the sense of " exclusiveness NOT RACISM in Western mindset " for Koreans and Japanese as they're are not incline to accept other Asians and Non-Asians in their social circles or society.
Nationality:
USA
Mother tongue:
Chinese
Ethnic group:
Han Chinese
I would be highly proud of my mother tonngue, American-English, if my grand-grand parents had emigrated to the states.
But I am terribly sorry that I thought you as a Chinese guy.

[pipokun]

Most Belgians and French want illegal immigrants and immigrants with a criminal record out of their country, but they cannot have it done because some politicians or international organisations say otherwise. Why should Japan be exempt ? I will never admit the right of Japan or its people to decide to limit immigration or expel the foreigners they do not like as long as all European countries will not have the same right.

http://www.diplomatie.be/fr/travel/visa/visumFicheDetail.asp?TEXTID=42753
4. Un extrait de casier judiciaire, ne datant pas de plus de 6 mois et couvrant les cinq dernieres annees.

けつかせ?

[Glenn]

But if you are interested in how the "no gaijin" signs in Hokkaido started...
It started out with a bunch of russians who don't know the respect for the local culture. Is this a racism against the Japanese, rather than the other way round? At least, the motivation to exclude foreigners was not racist, but it turned out to be.

I'm more interested in how I would be treated if I went to one of the "no gaijin" onsen and demostrated that I could speak the language and that I had a knowledge of the local customs.

[osias]

I'm more interested in how I would be treated if I went to one of the "no gaijin" onsen and demostrated that I could speak the language and that I had a knowledge of the local customs.
I'm not really sure about that. Why not go to Otaru, Hokkaido, and find out? If you look like an asian, you may pass as a local. :-)

Yukio says that Japan is racist, but racist to who? To tourists? To legal foreign residents? To illegal foreign residents? To those who show hostility to the local population and customs? We may get different answers.

[pipokun]

I'm more interested in how I would be treated if I went to one of the "no gaijin" onsen and demostrated that I could speak the language and that I had a knowledge of the local customs.
The case was over ages ago.

If you are interested in Sapporo or Hokkaido, try to file a lawsuit against rip-off bars in Susukino, a party district in Sapporo.
Pimps there, however, are more friendly than other areas. For example, ask them when you get lost there, I am sure they are kind enough to tell you the right direction.

[gaijinalways]

It's been going on for a while. Some forget that some Koreans and Chinese were lynched while the police helped round them up in the 50s because there was a rumor that some non-Japanese poisoned the water supply. Ishihara, the Tokyo governor, recently was calling for the military and police to be viligent about possible foreign rioting after an eathquake in Japan, alluding to the aforementioned lynching incident.
The more things change, the less they don't, at least in Japan.

[Maciamo]

http://www.diplomatie.be/fr/travel/visa/visumFicheDetail.asp?TEXTID=42753
4. Un extrait de casier judiciaire, ne datant pas de plus de 6 mois et couvrant les cinq dernieres annees.
けつかせ?
I am complaining about immigrants who commit crimes after coming to Belgium and do not get expelled from the country. I heard in the news recently that a big percentage (can't remember if it was 30% or 40% or more) of people in prisons in Belgium are from Moroccan origin... So not only do they commit crimes after getting their visa, but tax-payers must support the cost of prisons for them, and when they get out they are allowed to stay in Belgium again. For small crimes and offences, they should just be expelled with a black stamp on their passport and blacklisted by the immigration services, like they do in Japan, the US, Canada or Australia (maybe the UK too ?). For serious crimes, they should be deported and sent to prison in their home country*.

* N.B. : 95% of immigrants from Moroccan origin in Belgium do not have the Belgian nationality, although they are all elegible. The reason is that Belgium does not accept dual nationality (well actually this is going to change soon), and Moroccans care too much about their nationality to give it up, even those born and raised in Belgium !

[Maciamo]

I still prefer peaceful, indirect and hypocritical to shot or kill others for just an MP3 player.
The MP3 player murder was not a racist murder, as far as I know. Btw, such reckless murder are so rare in Belgium that it left the country shocked for several weeks, making the news for many days... There was even a protest march with tens of thousands of people, a special debate with the Prime Minister on TV, and it led to more police forces being deployed in train and metro stations (today I saw 10 policemen in just one metro station - although their role is dissuasive and they don't check anybody). You could say that it had a similar effect to 9/11 in the US, because murders in public places almost never happen in Belgium.

[yukio_michael]

Yukio says that Japan is racist, but racist to who? To tourists? To legal foreign residents? To illegal foreign residents? To those who show hostility to the local population and customs? We may get different answers.I'm not concerened with anyone there illegally, I respect a nation's own immigration laws, and don't have sympathy for those who break them, regardless of the situation.

Racist to tourists? Why no, of course not. Tourists are the best kind of gaijin in Japan, they are guarunteed to come in, spend money, and then leave quite promptly, they want them to keep comming back, as long as they agree to leave.

To legal foreign residents? Yes, in every shape of the word. Read John Lie's book Multiethnic Japan (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674013581/103-2758590-8087033?v=glance&n=283155), a book which tries to debunk the myth of Japan being a racially homogenous nation... to some extent he does this, and to some extent he reveals programs that exist for foreign workers and residents, but at the same time he points at the overal poor living conditions, mental anquish suffered by residents who have to basically, discard their ethnicities in order to please the Japanese government, and the basic distrust, surveilance, and ostracism they receive simply because they are not Japanese...

At the very best, they are permited the leeway of living in Japan because they fill dirty & dangerous jobs that young Japanese do not want, and because they look most-Japanese, that is, they're Asian, and can blend in better.

Japan has shown more than once it's reverance for Martin Luther King Jr, he even made it's top 100 list of historical figures, but imagine a world in which blacks were only permited into a society if they were light skinned... is this the type of world that Martin Luther King Jr invisioned? Is that racially harmonious? I think it's a hypocritical joke.

Maybe racism is too strong a word, xenophobia may be a bit better. Japan is a nation of the self agrandised who variously believe that foreigners are up to no good, whereas the very worst crimes (the murders, the odd slayings are commited by Japanese), who fear that foreigners will riot during the next earthquake and who's political leaders say so with impugnity...

Extract every other word I've said until now, racism, xenophobia inclusive, at the end, you are left with a single word:

Unwelcoming.

...And for someone, like myself, it's discouraging (but not defeating--- I decided that long ago, based on the sage words of a particular person on this forum)... to be locked out of something, much like the same policies lock those who are Japanese within a particular mindset.

[gaijinalways]

I share that feeling, hence my handle.

[yukio_michael]

Oh, I'd like to add, on another of your points that people all over the world can live with each other, China-town next to Little-Italy, next to a Viet Namese district, next to a Polish enclave... this doesn't produce the type of racial-tension that nations like France & Japan, and probably others no doubt, seem to fear...

France, for a nation which subjugated the Viet Namese, though arguably, it did the nation they occupied some good, has some rather twisted ideas about the raicial influx into it's own country... Cutting down on immigration to combat imagined 'racial tensions', which are actually 'fiscal tensions', and making people ascribe to the 'french way of life', are the same forms of ethno-self-agrandisement that are often ascribed to the Japanese.

[kkkktttt]

It's been going on for a while. Some forget that some Koreans and Chinese were lynched while the police helped round them up in the 50s because there was a rumor that some non-Japanese poisoned the water supply. Ishihara, the Tokyo governor, recently was calling for the military and police to be viligent about possible foreign rioting after an eathquake in Japan, alluding to the aforementioned lynching incident.
The more things change, the less they don't, at leats in Japan.
関東大震災時の虐殺事件についての事でしたら、1923年 です。
その後も戦災や地震・台風などの自然災害で、都市が壊 滅的な破壊を被り無秩序状態に陥ることが数多くありま したが、マイノリティが無差別に暴力を加えられた例は ただの一件もありません。

石原都知事の発言は、明らかに差別的なもので許される べきではありません。

しかし、日本社会があたかも80年以上前の状況と変わら ないかのような発言には悪意を感じざるを得ません。
あなた自身の日本に対する偏見がにじみ出ているように 思われます。

ちなみに、国際連盟の席上で日本が提唱した人種差別撤 廃条項が、アメリカやイギリスの主導する勢力によって 葬り去られたのはそのわずか4年前のことです。
世界は変わり、日本も変化したのです。

[osias]

Oh, I'd like to add, on another of your points that people all over the world can live with each other, China-town next to Little-Italy, next to a Viet Namese district, next to a Polish enclave... this doesn't produce the type of racial-tension that nations like France & Japan, and probably others no doubt, seem to fear...

i would like to hear from minorities over there, if they agree with you or not.

[osias]

関東大震災時の虐殺事件についての事でしたら、1923年 です。
その後も戦災や地震・台風などの自然災害で、都市が壊 滅的な破壊を被り無秩序状態に陥ることが数多くありま したが、マイノリティが無差別に暴力を加えられた例は ただの一件もありません。
石原都知事の発言は、明らかに差別的なもので許される べきではありません。
しかし、日本社会があたかも80年以上前の状況と変わら ないかのような発言には悪意を感じざるを得ません。
あなた自身の日本に対する偏見がにじみ出ているように 思われます。
ちなみに、国際連盟の席上で日本が提唱した人種差別撤 廃条項が、アメリカやイギリスの主導する勢力によって 葬り去られたのはそのわずか4年前のことです。
世界は変わり、日本も変化したのです。
I'm very amazed by the demonstration of your knowledge. It's unfortunate that not everyone can read this.

[ricecake]

i would like to hear from minorities over there, if they agree with you or not.

I am Chinese-American presently living in a city named Dublin 45 miles southeast of San Francisco of California ( USA ),where northern California has multi-ethnic population from all over the world in the heart of SILICON VALLEY with high-tech giants like Apple Computer Cisco Sys,HP,Ebay,plus many more world-class innovative companies.

I and many non-white minorities can absolutely back up Yukio's truthful description of American society where different races and nationalities CAN LIVE IN HARMONY WITH VERY LITTLE RACIAL TENSIONS within framework of US government sponsored Civil Rights Act.

There are many social changes in California and through out USA in the past 30 years,people of different backgrounds can work side by side,attend same schools,reside in neighborhood of their choice,equal access to public domains,private businesses are ban from discriminatory practice by law.

Again,America is a nation of immigrants.

Of-course,no nation can say it's social problem free including USA.

[ricecake]

Maybe racism is too strong a word, xenophobia may be a bit better.



Chinese often use the word XENOPHOBIC for Japanese and Koreans' anti-foreign attitudes,not RACISM in the sense of Western mindset.

Orientals are not ingrained with racist concept.

[osias]

I am Chinese-American presently living in a city named Dublin 45 miles southeast of San Francisco in California ( USA ),where northern California has multi-ethnic population from all over the world in the heart of SILICON VALLEY with high-tech giants like Apple Computer/Cisco System,HP,Ebay,plus many more world-class innovative companies.
I and many non-white minorities can absolutely back up Yukio's truthful description of American society where different races and nationalities CAN LIVE IN HARMONY WITH VERY LITTLE RACIAL TENSIONS within framework of US government sponsored affirmative action.

Are there any regional differences?

[ricecake]

Are there any regional differences?

Of-course,there are differences due to demographic make up of each region for USA is a ethnically-racially diversed continental nation.

California and America's South West including Texas now heavily populated with Asians and Hispanics mainly Mexicans,except for the 1992 LA race riot otherwise we only get a few sporadic racially-motivated incidents locally.

America's North West with less overall population compare to California,there was a case or two Nazi-sympathizer related hate crime(s) directed at blacks and Asians in the state of Oregon some years ago otherwise no racial tensions among general public.

America's Mid West stays mostly peaceful except when bigoted older white neighborhoods are forced by federal law or local authorities to accept " black newcomers ".In the 1990's,there was this one Iowa city in the national news for battling mayor's decision to " welcome " or openingly recruit blacks in the name of diversity to come live in their town.

America's North East has traditional population of families been in this country for many generations.I can't tell you much since I've never been there and California gets very little news reportings about this region.

America's South institutionalized racism ( Jim Crow law ) against blacks BANNED by federal government with the enactment of Civil Rights Act of 1965.White and black plus other races are getting along fine,but remnants of deep-seated racism ( on blacks ) might still exist in many minds of local white folks.Unlike segregated times,local schools now allow blacks to attend.A few years ago,national TV news reported white students at some high schools in one southern state wanted a separate senior prom night exclude fellow black class-mates because they want a fun night for them whites only.

[ricecake]

Are there any regional differences?

Federal laws,Civil Rights Act and Affirmative Action apply to ALL 50 STATES of America.

Affirmative Action BANS employment discrimination.

Civil Rights Act BANS public written and outwardly racial discriminations including " WHITES only " sign.

[MiCC]

im pretty sure japan doesnt want to be a multi-ethnic country, look what happen to france muslim teen riots. multi-ethnic may sound like a good idea but it just doesn't work somtimes

[osias]

im pretty sure japan doesnt want to be a multi-ethnic country, look what happen to france muslim teen riots. multi-ethnic may sound like a good idea but it just doesn't work somtimes
I think Japan is willing to accept immigrants, but it just wants to be more selective. For example, a college degree from a japanese university would be a requirement for an application of permanent residency. Ishihara is actually a leading exponent of the immigration policy, claiming that Japan is not a homogeneous country, but a multi-ethnic country with many roots.

http://news.livedoor.com/webapp/journal/cid__1574339/detail
石原知事「移民政策考えるべき」
定例会見で人口減少時代への見解語る
【ライブドア・ニュース　12月22日】− 東京都の石原慎太郎知事は22日の定例会見で、人口減少 時代への対策として、「日本は積極的な移民政策を考え るべきだ」と述べ、しっかりした入国管理制度の必要性 を強調した。
　石原知事は「人口減社会は決して悪いとは思わないが 、（高齢者が極端に多い）逆三角形のいびつな年齢配分は危険だ思う」と 述べた。そして「きちんとした入国管理の下に移民政策 を行えば、労働力提供だけでなく、若い人の結婚の問題 とかも解消されてくると思う」と持論を語った。具体的 には、日本の大学を卒業した外国人に永住権を与えるこ となどを挙げた。そして「日本人は単一民族ではない。 多岐にわたるルーツがある」と付け加えた。　
　また、民主党の前原誠司代表の「中国脅威発言」につ いて、「中国が脅威というのは当たり前だ。（中国が） 何のためにあんな軍事力を持っているのか。日本の領海 も度々侵犯されている」と述べ、「前原代表が言ったこ とは実に妥当だ」と語った。【了】

[ricecake]

im pretty sure japan doesnt want to be a multi-ethnic country, look what happen to france muslim teen riots. multi-ethnic may sound like a good idea but it just doesn't work somtimes
China is one example with overly-diversed population,it has no benefits except ethnic strife.Me and some silent Han Chinese wish China is more homogenous " pure Han " but it's never meant to be since it's a continental expansionist nation through out much of China's history.

[yukio_michael]

im pretty sure japan doesnt want to be a multi-ethnic country, look what happen to france muslim teen riots. multi-ethnic may sound like a good idea but it just doesn't work somtimesYes, I have no idea why France can not seem to differentiate between poverty and ethnicity, but I don't think they can make up their minds about what they are actually trying to keep out of France, both I would suppose.

France has long been one of Europe's most coveted destinations for immigrants. A draft bill introduced to the French parliament will make it even more difficult to immigrate to France.

The new recommendations are for a more selective process that concentrates on recruiting only skilled immigrants.

France, like other European countries, is taking a harder look at the immigrants it lets in. The drive toward "selective" immigration is inspired by electoral politics, by fears that some immigrants are not integrating and may even be vectors for terrorism and by widely shared concerns that they overtax welfare systems and compete for scarce jobs.Poor people will compete for jobs that they can not fill? They'll steal the dangerous meat packing & machinist jobs away from the aristocracy? None of this makes sense...

[The immigration reform] does away with a provision that allows foreigners who have been in the country for more than 10 years, even those here illegally, to apply for French citizenship.

Finally, the new laws will make obtaining 10-year-residency permits contingent on speaking French. Candidates will also have to prove they have assimilated into the French culture and learnt to respect the "values of the French republic."

Values of the French republic? In what way is the French system failing if it's own population can not fill it's skilled labour positions. The situation is probably better described by a dearth of education and improvement programs for the poor, who riot, and become labled as 'terrorist vectors...', again, self-agrandising & exclusionary, and I'd say closer to racism than Japan.

link: here (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_04_10/europe/france_drafts_immigration_laws.htm?newsletter=c542 938d9816b27ddd31e362610d9da0)

...and: here (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_04_28/europe/french_government_faces_challenges.htm?newsletter= c542938d9816b27ddd31e362610d9da0).

[ricecake]

France's one-time celebrated sex-kitten actress Bridget Bardot written a book in 2000 was banned by French court for racist-remarks targeted Arabs for " over-ran " her beloved FRANCE.

[gaijinalways]

ricecake posted Chinese often use the word XENOPHOBIC for Japanese and Koreans' anti-foreign attitudes,not RACISM in the sense of Western mindset.

Orientals are not ingrained with racist concept.


Perhaps, they certainly don't seem to recognize it except when they think it's being directed towards them!

[ricecake]

関東大震災時の虐殺事件についての事でしたら、1923年 です。
その後も戦災や地震・台風などの自然災害で、都市が壊 滅的な破壊を被り無秩序状態に陥ることが数多くありま したが、マイノリティが無差別に暴力を加えられた例は ただの一件もありません。
石原都知事の発言は、明らかに差別的なもので許される べきではありません。
しかし、日本社会があたかも80年以上前の状況と変わら ないかのような発言には悪意を感じざるを得ません。
あなた自身の日本に対する偏見がにじみ出ているように 思われます。
ちなみに、国際連盟の席上で日本が提唱した人種差別撤 廃条項が、アメリカやイギリスの主導する勢力によって 葬り去られたのはそのわずか4年前のことです。
世界は変わり、日本も変化したのです。

Can I get English translation ?

I understood those Kanji words,not entirety of this new article.

[ricecake]

I don't know how it is elsewhere in other parts of America,there are a few businesses I frequent here in northern California with wall sign reads " we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone ".Since it makes reference to particular race,therefore is permittable by local authorities.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Racism in the United States is an absolutely enormous topic that is way too big to deal with here. And there are books upon books written about it, and 300 years of history behind it. Add to that for the past 40 years, the United States has been in the midst of a cultural revolution, where the social establishment has been overturned on so many levels, and you have a really big mess that isn't easy to wade through.

From Cornell West's Race Matters to Beverly Daniel Tatum's Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?, racial issues in the U.S. are incredibly complex and bereft of easy answers.

China is one example with overly-diversed population,it has no benefits except ethnic strife.Me and some silent Han Chinese wish China is more homogenous " pure Han " but it's never meant to be since it's a continental expansionist nation through out much of China's history.
I wouldn't say China has been expansionist. It repeatedly grows to unify a specific region in Eastern Asia, but rarely expands beyond that point. With the exeption of militaristic emperors such as Wu Ti during the Han Dynasty, I don't think the Chinese ever really attempted to expand farther beyond their current borders today. Take the case of Zheng He's armada and it's dismantling by the emperor in the early 15th century. Zheng He's armada was powerful enough to project Chinese influence all over the globe, and could have easily reached America, but was never dispatched.

Rather, I'd call the Chinese empires unificationist. They were empires, yes. But they never seemed to have the global objectives the Romans or Persians seemed to have had.

Values of the French republic?
I know. Tell me about it.

Which one? The First? La règne de la terreur characterized much of the First Republic. (Please excuse my rotten French).

[ricecake]

I wouldn't say China has been expansionist. It repeatedly grows to unify a specific region in Eastern Asia, but rarely expands beyond that point. With the exception of militaristic emperors such as Wu Ti during the Han Dynasty, I don't think the Chinese ever really attempted to expand farther beyond their current borders today.



You left out one bitsy part of imperialistic Chinese history on military conquest of northern half of Vietnam was named part of Nan Yue region under the " Heaven of Mandate " domain of Qin Dynasty.China held it for over 1000 years then Vietnam broken free in 939 AD.

It was deep-seated Hua-Xia centrism,believing China was the center of all.Ancient Chinese named their nation,Middle Kingdom.

[ricecake]

For example, on television in Japan, when they have a contest of say, gaijin talent vs. non gaijin talent, they do group the Korean & Japanese Americans on the gaijin side... I just don't feel that this sort of diferentiating is very healthy for a society. This is as recent as last year.


Were those Koreans,Japan-born Zainichi's or S Korean immigrants can speak Japanese ?

Were the Koreans and Japanese Americans grouped on the " gaijin side " with white foreigners ?

It's perfectly normal,if non-gaijin team is all native-born Japanese with challenge team comprise of Asian " foreign-borns " whether they're Koreans or Japanese.

[osias]

Japan has many kanji education programs on TV. I don't know which one yukio is talking about though.

http://kanji.ifdef.jp/tv/index.html

If these Koreans are zainichi, who were born and educated in Japan, i also think it's weird to place them on the gaijin side.

[ricecake]

America has came a long way in dealing with racial tolerance.

Nowadays,predujice is more subtle by individuals here in USA.

[yukio_michael]

Were those Koreans,Japan-born Zainichi's or S Korean immigrants can speak Japanese ?
Were the Koreans and Japanese Americans grouped on the " gaijin side " with white foreigners ?
It's perfectly normal,if non-gaijin team is all native-born Japanese with challenge team comprise of Asian " foreign-borns " whether they're Koreans or Japanese.From what I recall, it wasn't a concern if they were actually born in Japan, as at least a good half of them were--- I'm uncertainn of this, and forget the actors, but I recall the conversations with my ex-gf, that I would specifically ask her who was born in Japan, and regardless they were all considered to be gaijin.

A lot of people considered to be 'gaijin' have spent almost their entire lives living in Japan, learning and speaking Japanese from a very early age--- so a challenge to see who was more learned in kanji, due to their ethnicity seemed a tad racially charged to me... Their assimilation into Japanese culture was already quite asssured, but some measure to mark them as possibly different seemed to be the theme.

Imagine a gameshow in the United States that pitted actors of various ethnicities against caucasian actors to see who knew the most English grammar... it seems laughable to think that anyone would stand for that sort of profiling.

America has came a long way in dealing with racial tolerance. Now,predujice is more subtle by individuals here in USA.I think so too... though I think there are a lot of residual antagonism by Black Americans who still harbor a good deal of resentment. ---However, American blacks are without question the most affluent of any in the world. This is the most -visible- aspect of racism in America, and it is more like an undercurrent than a thematic element to culture.

Some claim it exists, but I rarely ever see racism towards Asians & other races who make up the ethnic "minorities"... We say Minorities, simply because the wealthiest 1% of the US happen to be members of the "White Mayflower legacy aristocracy"... whatever you like to call it.

Poverty & ignorance tend to amplify racism in America, but then again, I think that is true almost anywhere as well.

[yukio_michael]

I'd like to add, without the breaking-editing distraction, that these talent included the typical hafu Japanese... Again, I just don't think it's very productive to try to prove who may be considered superior, half Japanese, non-Japanese, or Japanese...

[osias]

Some claim it exists, but I rarely ever see racism towards Asians & other races who make up the ethnic "minorities"...
Is this↓ an example of racism towards Asians...? The reason you rarely see is simply because you are not asian??
http://www.crisscross.com/jp/forum/m_805952/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm
Yesterday, when I was walking on the street (in the US),
a group of teenage girls randomly came up to me and said, "konnichiwa"
So I said "Hi" to them in English.
Then one of these girls yelled at me, "Eggrolls" and "Soy sauce." for no appearant reason.
and the other girls, including African-American girls, started laughing.
At first, I didn't understand why she called me such things or why they thought it was so funny until I realized that those foods are Chinese foods and that they were mocking at me for being Asian.
After realizing that, I felt humiliated inside since there were alot of people walking by.
I wanted to go to them and say don't be racist, but I was too ashamed to keep my face up and I didn't want to cause a meaningless fight with bunch of teenage girls. so I just ignored them and went away.
I've lived in the US for a few years now, but there is one thing that I cannot get used to;
racism.
I mean most Americans are not as racist as those teenage girls, but sometimes I get treated differently by some Americans just because I'm Asian.
Being Asian in America, I've realized that to American people, my eyes can look little funny and my last name can sound little strange. To them, I know kungfu or karate just because I'm Asian. And whenever I walk by, they have to assume that I'm Japanese and say "konnichiwa". (That wasn't the first time anyway)
Although some of these things are not very serious, I got little tired of it after being humiliated several times for the same f--ing reason. and I want to know what I can do to face these racists and say something that can open their eyes and make them see that I'm hurt by their thoughtless comments.
And since I'm very good in speaking English, I'm not sure I can argue with them either.
What do you think I should do?
What would you have done if you were in my position?

[yukio_michael]

Is this↓ an example of racism towards Asians...? The reason you rarely see is simply because you are not asian??
http://www.crisscross.com/jp/forum/m_805952/mpage_1/key_/tm.htmNo, simply because I've never run into anyone, of any background who has had any sort of problem with Asians... I've had plenty of experiences in my life with people who were predjudiced against blacks, more than I can count, but to my knowledge not a single phrase has ever been uttered to me about Asians. I'm sure that the racism exists, but it's very minor compared to other more prominent forms of racism... There certainly isn't anything in society preventing Asians from self-improvement, however there is a very visible element of stigma & self-defeat that exists within the Black & to some extent, Hispanic communities...

And guess what? Some people get treated differently through life for all manner of reasons; children are cruel, and being different is a catalyst for them to prove it.

ed: Remember, also, I'm speaking of government policies, institutions... Most Japanese I've met who have lived for any length of time outside of Japan don't share these same feelings about race as those who live only within Japan. Hence, the biggest threat to Japanese ideas about racism seems to be other Japanese...

[ricecake]

According to my Chinese language translated book titled " Ugly Koreans " written by China-born chosunjin or ethnic Korean presently reside in Japan,Korean Zainichi generally cried " discrimination " in response to some TV programs pronounced their names in a Japanese way for they preceived as show of no respect toward their heritage.

They would rather want Japanese say their Korean names in KOREAN whatever it means.

[ricecake]

My two cents .....

I think Japanese have conditioned nationalism and ethnocentricism by social environment and education.

Japanese also have superiority complex therefore they feel above some other nationalities,it reflects in social behaviors perceived by gaijins as " racism ".

[lonesoullost3]

There absolutely exists racism against Asians. Growing up in northern California in areas that are predominantly Asian (and at times I was a minority - being Caucasian) I saw and heard racism towards Asians nearly everyday. It may not be your KKK style of racism but nevertheless it is racism. The most common area where this exists is in regards to education. First, there is the stereotype that all Asians are extremely intelligent. (I can definitley point out some people contrary to this stereotype). Most recently, those that seem to fit this stereotype led to a "White Flight", as the Wallstreet Journal called it, in Campbell-Saratoga District schools. This "white flight" was an exodus of the caucasian population from these school districts to other districts because parents felt that the Asian population in the districts were putting too much pressure on their own children. Racism has been explained to be caused by fear. These parents feared for the future livelihood of their children because the "smart Asians" were doing better than them in school. (And indeed, Saratoga High School (public), #1 in California, had about 60% of the student body with 3.7 GPAs or higher. And to prove it's not just an easy school, 20 people got into Stanford 2 years ago, and perhaps 7 or 8 into Harvard (and many more into top tier schools) in a class <300.) This to me is a glaring example of racism - and not the stereotypical type of racism a la KKK.

[osias]

According to my Chinese language translated book titled " Ugly Koreans " written by China-born chosunjin or ethnic Korean presently reside in Japan,Korean Zainichi generally cried " discrimination " in response to some TV programs pronounced their names in a Japanese way for they preceived as show of no respect toward their heritage.
They would rather want Japanese say their Korean names in KOREAN whatever it means.
I don't understand. Chinese people call my name in Chinese, all the time, but I take no offence. I myself pronounce my name in Chinese. Come on!!Not everything is discrimination.

[osias]

My two cents .....
I think Japanese have conditioned nationalism and ethnocentricism by social environment and education.
Japanese also have superiority complex therefore they feel obove other races and nationalities,it reflects in social behaviors perceived by gaijins as " racism ".
Japan's education system does not place emphasis on the celebration of diversity, because everyone is a conformist there. If you grew up in a cross-cultural environment, this conformist behavior can be bothering sometimes. I wouldn't say it is nationalism, though. It's just a different value system.

[ricecake]

There absolutely exists racism against Asians. Growing up in northern California in areas that are predominantly Asian (and at times I was a minority - being Caucasian) I saw and heard racism towards Asians nearly everyday. It may not be your KKK style of racism but nevertheless it is racism.



You beat me to it.

I wasn't incline to make it an issue here,for it's irrelevant to thread topic.

I,too grew up in San Francisco Bay Area where continued large influx of Asians put tremendous pressures on local schools and attributed to white flights as in exodus of 1-2 millions " white Anglo-Saxon population " to other states in the last 15 years or so.

Through some gravevines at work in the late 1990's,a small minority local working-class whites attended some " secret group meetings " to discuss as to how to deal with growing Asian population and their discontents plus ultimate fear of becoming " new minority " in California,but nothing concrete materialized.

There is no perfect country,as there is no social problem free society.

Again,this area has maintained a harmony social enviroment with very little outbreaks of racial violence.

[ricecake]

I don't understand. Chinese people call my name in Chinese, all the time, but I take no offence. I myself pronounce my name in Chinese. Come on!!Not everything is discrimination.


Yeah,Koreans are hyper-sensitive often take slight on small matters personally.I've read on a few internet forums,there is a small trend among S Koreans begin naming their children in " pure " Korean words not translatable and or pronounce in Chinese.

99% Japanese names are written in Kanji,we Chinese typically pronounce those characters in our language for we don't speak Japanese.

[yukio_michael]

<off topic>
I'd like to see two things happen as far as Asians go in the United States... I'd like to see fewer fully-nationalized Asians selling their own ethnicity as a marketing ploy, and I'd like to see fewer shrill puff-piece films featuring that sort of thing. Really they both rely on the other, people have to stop exploiting others, and people have to want to not have their own race exploited...

Just as I'm sick of television shows such as the soppranos trying to solidify the notion that all Italian americans are dumb, drinking, organized gangsters, I'm equally sick of the notion that all Asians everywhere are martial arts experts. Whenever an Asian does something in an American movie, its usually throwing a punch, (see Lucy Liu, etc etc in Bond film debut), rather than simply being a human being.

That's how we see Asians... as a commodity, it's a shame.
</off topic>

[ricecake]

I am so freaking tired of this " Kung-Fu stereotype " of us Asians,as I now find it demeaning.

[osias]

This one from NYT is quite interesting...although it's still a bit biased..
Letter From Asia: Japan and China: National Character Writ Large
�
March 17, 2004 By NORIMITSU ONISHI
�
TOKYO - Of all languages in the world, Japanese is the only one that has an entirely different set of written characters to express foreign words and names. Just seeing these characters automatically tells the Japanese that they are dealing with something or someone non-Japanese.
�
So foreign names, from George Bush to Saddam Hussein, are depicted in these characters, called katakana. What's more, the names of foreign citizens of Japanese ancestry are also written in this set of characters, indicating that while they may have Japanese names, they are not, well, really Japanese.
�
By contrast, in Chinese, no such distinction is made. There, non-Chinese names are depicted, sometimes with great difficulty, entirely in Chinese characters. Foreigners are, in effect, made Chinese.
�
At bottom, the differences reflect each country's diverging worldview. In contrast to the inner-looking island nation of Japan, China has traditionally viewed itself as the Middle Kingdom of its name, the center of the world. If it is natural for Japan to identify things or people as foreign, viewing them with some degree of caution, it may be equally natural for Chinato take "Coca-Cola" or "George Bush," and find the most suitable Chinese characters to express them.
�
In Japan, the rigid division between the inside and outside in the language underscores this country's enduring ambivalence toward the non-Japanese. The contrast with China is stark, and speaks also to the future prospects of Asia's two economic giants as they �compete for influence in a world of increasingly fluid borders.
�
While today's Japanese travel overseas with an ease and confidence that would have been unimaginable only two generations ago, they remain uneasy about foreign things and people coming here. Safer to label them clearly as foreign.
�
Not so China.
�
"China is a big continent and has an inclination to think that it is No. 1 and that others are uncivilized," said Minoru Shibata, a researcher at NHK, Japan's public broadcast network. "Therefore, they feel that giving Chinese names to foreigners is doing them a favor."
�
China and Japan represent the two nations that still widely use Chinese characters in their writing. The Chinese, as the creators of this system, still use them exclusively.
�
Come to Japan, and things get extremely complicated. In their everyday lives, the Japanese use three different sets of characters in writing - four if the widely used Roman alphabet is also included.
�
First are the Chinese characters, called kanji here. Japanese names are written in kanji. Currently, the number of kanji permitted for names stands at 2,230, and selecting a character outside this list is illegal. Parents have been pressing for an expanded list, though, and so the justice ministry said recently that it is considering adding between 500 and 1,000 characters.
�
Second is a set of phonetic characters used for Japanese words. Third are the katakana, the set of phonetic characters for foreign words.
�
"There is no other language that has three sets of characters - only Japanese," said Muturo Kai, president of the National Institute for Japanese Language.
�
In the United States, parents' freedom to name their children may be absolute. Here the government and the media set the boundaries of names and the way they are written, thereby also setting the boundaries of Japanese identity.
�
In the media, the names of George Bush and Saddam Hussein are written in the characters reserved for foreign names. But so are the names of people of Japanese ancestry, like Alberto Fujimori, Peru's deposed president, or Kazuo Ishiguro, the author of "Remains of the Day," who left Japan at the age of 5 and is a British citizen. Their names could be written in kanji, but are instead written in katakana, in an established custom indicating that they are not truly Japanese.
�
The distinctions are sometimes difficult to draw, as they touch upon the difficult question of who is Japanese, or, rather, when does someone stop being Japanese. If Mr. Ishiguro had kept his Japanese citizenship all these years, would his name be written differently here? Why is the name of Mr. Fujimori, who holds Japanese citizenship and now lives in exile here, not written in kanji like the names of other Japanese? The media have no set criteria.
�
Are the criteria citizenship, blood, mastery of the Japanese language or customs? Or, in this island nation where leaving Japan has always meant leaving the village, does one start becoming non-Japanese the minute one steps off Japanese soil?
�
There is a strong argument to be made for that. Children of Japanese business families stationed overseas for a few years invariably encounter problems returning here. Schoolmates often pick on them and call them gaijin, meaning foreigner or outsider. That problem has decreased in recent years, as more and more Japanese have spent time abroad. But those children are still considered to have suffered from their years overseas, in contrast to, say, an American child whose experience living abroad would usually be considered a plus.
�
Chinese identity is a different matter. Whether you are a fourth-generation Chinese-American student at Berkeley, or the children of Chinese operating a restaurant in Lagos, Nigeria, you are considered Chinese, or an insider, upon returning to China. Your name will be written in the same way as everybody else's. Unlike Japan's, Chinese identity transcends borders.
�
"Chinese people have a strong feeling of comradeship toward overseas Chinese," said Naokazu Hiruma, who is in charge of language use at the daily Asahi Shimbun and studied in China. "Overseas Chinese have a long tradition, and they remain Chinese even after generations have passed. Japanese regard second- or third-generation overseas Japanese, even though they are of Japanese origin, as `people from that country over there.' "
�

[ricecake]

Good insight.

Chinese are well awared of both Koreans and Japanese's psyche,we or us versus they or them ( outsiders ).the word " we " is rooted in Korean daily language use,according to my book " Ugly Koreans " written by China-born chosenjin.

[gaijinalways]

Sorry Ricecake, I would put the Chinese in the same category, being overly concerned with the Chinese and non-Chinese distinction. Being a still developing country, it's slightly more acceptable than in Japan that is supposedly more internationalized with a large number of people who travel overseas every year. Interestingly enough, being a foreigner generally only means you're barred from some places, versus China where you pay more for train tickets, etc too!

[ricecake]

Sorry Ricecake, I would put the Chinese in the same category, being overly concerned with the Chinese and non-Chinese distinction.



Oooops,you've just reminded me of this once PRC's implemented " dual " pricing policy for dirt-poor locals and deep-pocketed foreigners mainly tourists ( including overseas Chinese ) in those earlier years.Is this still in effect,I have to ask fellow forumers here huayue and others for answer.I shall come back with one soon.

This is strictly government policy,NOT a " common cultural trait " among general Chinese population there or elsewhere unless you're talking about unscrupulous merchants purposely over-inflate prices targeting unsuspected Westerners.

In S Korea,I've read and heard merchants there tend to charge mainland Chinese tourists much less than Yen-loaded Japanese.

Both Japanese and Koreans " appear culturally Chinese ",but they have own respective culture with Japanese have the most distant mentality from Chinese.I haven't stretched this little unknown fact enough to Western people,Koreans is the one share closest ( exactly the same ) mentality with Chinese.

[pipokun]

It would be nice if you describe the Hakka Chinese mentality.
Their networking power is great, though I don't know how exclusive attitude they have to others.

[osias]

Good insight.
Chinese are well awared of both Koreans and Japanese's psyche,we or us versus they or them ( outsiders ).the word " we " is rooted in Korean daily language use,according to my book " Ugly Koreans " written by China-born chosenjin.
China is also concerned with "we vs they" distinction, but their definition of Chineseness is not as strict. China's identity is more inclusive, or rather expansionist. They are now saying that Genghis Khan is Chinese, Koguryo is China's history, Tibet is China, etc.

Japaneseness is more strict, it is defined by the criteria of "citizenship, blood, mastery of the Japanese language or customs". Even among the Japanese, there is a distinction between 純ジャパ(pure japanese, someone who has no overseas experiences)＆変ジャパ(weird japanese, people who grew up with foreign influences, eg. returnees). It's a terminology used in some universities like ICU. Japan was more diverse, when it was expanding. After the WW2, Japan got rid of many things that were not considered "Japanese".

Perhaps, in the case of the US, mere possession of citizenship would suffice to be an american. It's an immigrant country, so there is no ethnicity called "American", unless you are talking about native americans.

[caster51]

They are now saying that Genghis Khan is Chinese, Koguryo is China's history, Tibet is China, etc
basically,Only Chinese trusts Chinese.
that is,I think chinese trusts only their blood
It is a mere expansionism as the hegemony.
thibet is not china

[ricecake]

China is also concerned with "we vs they" distinction, but their definition of Chineseness is not as strict.China's identity is more inclusive, or rather expansionist.

They are now saying that Genghis Khan is Chinese, Koguryo is China's history, Tibet is China, etc.



Chinese concept of " we vs they " is blur not deep-rooted in our mindset,I can ensure you on that for Chinese are known as " dis-unity " oppose to " collective mindset " for Japanese and lesser degree for K.

For Han Chinese,it's their " culture " binds them as a people oppose to " religion " for world Jewry.

Han Chinese is not a monolithic ethnicity,rather a cultural identity and or a generic race of intermixed Asian continental Mongoloids.

Inclusiveness is the right word as you simply put it in the case of China or Chinese identity for it's long history of " expansionist hegemony " as it continues to obsorb other Mongoloid ethnicities and nibble up " unconquered " land into one domain.

Since this is not a thread on China ancient history,I refrain from expressing my takes on listed issues in your post.That place is an old civilization,with 4000 years of documented COMPLEX ENDURING history.

[ricecake]

basically,Only Chinese trusts Chinese.

that is,I think chinese trusts only their blood

It is a mere expansionism as the hegemony.

thibet is not china



Chinese sometimes do " trust own blood " whatever it means,though China has more " sell-outs " compare to nearly zero for Japan.

China for much of it's history,no doubts an expansionist hegemony.

Hmmm ... I don't think Ryukyu Island's ( Okinawa ) Emperor and local population welcomed Kyushu's Satsuma clan with open arms in the early 17th century.

Let's not turn this thread into a flaming war of words on matter of history/political conflicts.

Can we get back on topic .......

[gaijinalways]

I think Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese all still tend to intermarry versus outmarrying with other races. Unless you arecomparing it to the Italians or the Indians, basically there is a lot of pressure not to marry outside your ethnic group.

[ricecake]

You meant Koreans,Japanese,and Chinese preferrably like to intermarry one another ?

Seemingly,there is an uptrend in the past 10 years or so on the backdrop of never-ending bickering over WW 2 issues.

There is still some pressure not to marry outside own ethnicity or other races,but it has loosen alot compare to pre-1980.

[ricecake]

Gaijinalways ....

The dual pricing is still in practice today inside China,for transportations,vacation tours,some restaurants.It's restrict to places and services cater to non-locals,one fellow mainland forumer comfirmed it to me.

This is obsolutely not racially-motived,rather an adjustment for economic disparity between locals and visiting/resident foreigners including overseas Chinese as well.

[gaijinalways]

Ricecake posted This is obsolutely not racially-motived,rather an adjustment for economic disparity between locals and visiting/resident foreigners including overseas Chinese as well.

So you mean we should charge everyone what the traffic will bear? So Bill Gates should pay the most? And believe me, if you can pass yourself off as a local, you'll get the local price (my friends have done it a few times, just have to dress down).

[yukio_michael]

I'm doubting that people at that level are practing that sort of micro-economics... However, if a foreigner came in and on a few dollars bought up all the product that was for local consumption---- you can see how some form of protectionism is warrented.

A good example of this is when Europe converted its currencies to the Euro. Englanders were for a long time able to visit these respective countries and buy up local merchandise which would have costed them twice the respective ammounts back home--- There are other reasons for a unified currency, but this was one of them.

As much as I don't like the idea of treating foreigners differently, by giving them a different price, I don't like the idea of foreigners being able to subjugate local commodities--- If there are expats, should expats be given carte blanche to dominate a market simply because they happen to be able to buy their way in?

[Veidit]

Those immigrants able to live in work in Japan are permited to do so on the condition that they give up their own ethnicity, names, history, in order to become part of the so-called racially homogenous Japanese society. On the one side, Japan makes individuals seeking inclusion into Japanese society deny their own ethnicities & histories, while at the same time, institutionalizing an ideal that foreign residents are not only dangerous but unwelcome, leaving them permanantly excluded or recognized as members of such a society.

Hi, related to the quote how would I be treated if I got a job in Japan, for example if a company there would hire me and I would move over from Sweden. I wouldn't know the language but I would definetly learn it. What would change for me? I wonder a mostly about: Those immigrants able to live in work in Japan are permited to do so on the condition that they give up their own ethnicity, names, history, in order to become part of the so-called racially homogenous Japanese society and how that applies. Are there any good current examples to this?