Is "Gaijin" a Racist Slur?

[Flanker]

I have a simple question for the JREF Community: do you consider the word "Gaijin" a racist slur? In my opinion, it in and of itself isn't a racist slur, but many people have co-opted into a word that has racit connotations (I.E. being shouted at a white person, who may or may not have permanent residency or citizenship). I also think it is kind of a rude word, and I don't use it much.

[RockLee]

Gaijin or Gaikokujin means "foreigner", so why would it be racist? It is what we are as non-Japanese. Foreigners.

[Damicci]

I don't the word was considered rude because of your particular example. But rude because it sort of labels a person as having no origin that are just outsiders where gai koku jin actually makes says the person is just from a another country.

gai - jin = foreing / outside person
gai - koku - jin = foreign / outside country person

[nice gaijin]

Out of context, the word indicates a sense of exclusion, but whether it is meant as a slur or derogatory statement is entirely dependant on how it is expressed. There are a lot of people who get offended by the word, even when it's used in an innocent way, because they think it's indicative of a racist mindset. Everyone is ethnocentric in one way or another; the Japanese have just incorporated it into their language.

[Damicci]

Out of context, the word indicates a sense of exclusion, but whether it is meant as a slur or derogatory statement is entirely dependant on how it is expressed. There are a lot of people who get offended by the word, even when it's used in an innocent way, because they think it's indicative of a racist mindset. Everyone is ethnocentric in one way or another; the Japanese have just incorporated it into their language.

Agreed. I don't see the big deal. As far as I am concerned if some said it in a spiteful manner, "You stupid gaijin etc." then maybe you can be upset about it. I just think some people take these equal rights things too far.

[changedonrequest]

Out of context, the word indicates a sense of exclusion, but whether it is meant as a slur or derogatory statement is entirely dependant on how it is expressed. There are a lot of people who get offended by the word, even when it's used in an innocent way, because they think it's indicative of a racist mindset. Everyone is ethnocentric in one way or another; the Japanese have just incorporated it into their language.

Pretty much the same way as people in the US would use the word immigrant. THAT has all sorts of connotations as well, not only today but from throughout history too.

Like nice gaijin wrote, and for myself as well, it all depends on how it is said on whether or not I find it offensive or not.

[Mike Cash]

This has to be the most over-discussed topic in the history of gaijindom.

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21484

[Damicci]

This has to be the most over-discussed topic in the history of gaijindom.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21484
Mike ftw
I just never gave my .01 cent!:-)

wait...maybe Japanese girls + X ethnicity running a close second!

[JimmySeal]

The dictionary will tell you that gaijin and gaijkokujin are not completely synonymous. Gaijin has this extra meaning:
(2)内輪でない人。他人。外部の人。
Outsider, stranger.

Gaikokujin is not completely synonymous with "foreigner" either, as gaikokujin has the added definition, "somebody who does not have Japanese citizenship," so even an Australian strolling around in the outback is a gaikokujin even from the perspective of Japanese visitors to his country, and he can do little to change that.

[Ewok85]

I have some friends who call me ketou or hakujin when they want to wind me up :p

If you want to have some fun, respond by calling your Japanese agitator アジア系 :cool: See how much they enjoy racial grouping.

[Mike Cash]

I have some friends who call me ketou or hakujin when they want to wind me up :p

If you want to have some fun, respond by calling your Japanese agitator アジア系 :cool: See how much they enjoy racial grouping.

My wife once recommended "黄色人" (oushokujin) as a reply to 白人. I have yet to use it.

[Ewok85]

I'll remember it and it shall be sweet - will let you know if my mate can trump it!

[Glenn]

My wife once recommended "黄色人" (oushokujin) as a reply to 白人. I have yet to use it.

Wow. That's pretty hardcore. I guess in Japanese they're about the same as far as connotation (I don't have much experience with either word, though), but in America "white" is fine, but "yellow" is just wrong.

[Maciamo]

I feel it is racist in the sense that it is meant to exclude. Its meaning is not as much "foreigner" as "not of Japanese blood and education".

It has little to do with nationality on paper as naturalised Japanese who don't look Japanese are refer as "gaijin". It is not just about blood as emigrated Japanese also become gaijin (or at least their children not born and bred in Japan).

[JimmySeal]

Sometimes old people use the word and I don't let it bother me 'cause they probably don't know any better, but I sure stew when people who should know better use it.
One time I told a colleague that we have a channel in New Jersey that shows Japanese programming for an hour every night with no English subtitles. She asked (in Japanese) "So gaikokujin who don't understand Japanese won't understand it?" The correct response should have been "Well, Americans in their own country aren't foreigners are they? You are." But I couldn't think that fast.

The dual meaning of gaikokujin enables Japanese people to use it in as racist a way as they see fit. And of course common usage always beats out dictionary definition anyway. Even though 広辞苑 defines ジュース as (and only as), liquid drawn from a fruit or vegetable, that won't stop people from using the word as though it were synonymous with "soft drink."

[GodEmperorLeto]

One time I told a colleague that we have a channel in New Jersey that shows Japanese programming for an hour every night with no English subtitles.
You talking about WYBE? They show a lot of awesome stuff from overseas. Jersey pride, baby! Snoochie boochies!

The correct response should have been "Well, Americans in their own country aren't foreigners are they? You are." But I couldn't think that fast.
Damn! That would have been a good one. It's always good to knock at the unconscious preconcieved notions about the world that people don't realize they have. Whenever you get one of those, it makes you re-evaluate a small but vital piece of the world you live in.

It's always a good day when I can say, "Huh! Well, I never thought of that!" It can lead to enlightenment, and that's a great feeling.

The dual meaning of gaikokujin enables Japanese people to use it in as racist a way as they see fit. And of course common usage always beats out dictionary definition anyway.
It's the same as how the Hebrew term "goyim" can be used. As well as how the Greeks and Romans used the term "barbarian". The concept is not that new.

I feel it is racist in the same that it is meant to exclude. Bingo! Again, just as the term "goyim" is used to mean "other" or "non-Jew".

In a world of millions of different ethnic and linguistic groups, to divide the world into terms of "us" and "not us" does indeed smack of some degree of racialism and ethnocentrism.

Like I've said on another thread, it is my understanding that most Japanese are brainwashed with this from a young age. If they are racist, they don't realize it, and many would be appalled to discover if they were. They may interpret it as national pride. In many of the fantasy worlds of anime, Japanese writers and animators create an ideal world bereft of racism and sexism, displaying a marked interest in equity and the "brotherhood of man" in stark contrast to the realities of their society. Any ethnocentrism many individuals exhibit is because they seek to maintain wa.

Besides, like it or not, Japanese is a language of power, and the relationships of power are very apparent in the vocabulary, moreso than in many modern European languages. It cannot be surprising that the designation of "foreigner" or "not Japanese" will have overtones of power and separation between the speaker and the listener.

[Elizabeth]

My wife once recommended "黄色人" (oushokujin) as a reply to 白人. I have yet to use it.
I agree it may be unpleasant to think about but 白人 is Caucasian, 黒人, black etc. What are they supposed to use instead? That is their language. :okashii:

[osias]

I don't use the word gaijin when i speak japanese, but on an English forum like this one, this word seems to show up quite frequently, and i somehow use the word on an English forum, because others use it. Is gaijin an english word already? I find it strange that many gaijins prefer to use this word gaijin, while many others complain about its racist connotations? There is no single consensus.

I myself grew up overseas in 4 different countries, i've been a foreigner most of my life time. But i don't take offense at being considered a foreigner, because i am! I like the aloofness, rootlessness, etc of a global nomad.

[Mike Cash]

I agree it may be unpleasant to think about but 白人 is Caucasian, 黒人, black etc. What are they supposed to use instead? That is their language. :okashii:

I have no problem with the words. I use both 白人 and 外人 as descriptors for myself, when appropriate. I also don't play the idiotic P.C. game of 外国人 = "okay" and 外人 = "offensive".

The specific occasion my wife recommended using 黄色人 as a rejoinder to 白人 was one time when a carload of young idiots in the darkest recesses of Fukushima decided to shout 白人！ to me as an epithet.

[Glenn]

I don't use the word gaijin when i speak japanese, but on an English forum like this one, this word seems to show up quite frequently, and i somehow use the word on an English forum, because others use it. Is gaijin an english word already? I find it strange that many gaijins prefer to use this word gaijin, while many others complain about its racist connotations? There is no single consensus.

That's an interesting question, but I would say that the answer is "no" in that it isn't known by the population at large, only amongst those who have an interest in Japan. I'd be surprised if some of my friends who ask me to translate Korean for them (they think it's Japanese) knew the word "gaijin."

It is true that lots of non-Japanese on this forum use the word to describe themselves, and I think that it can have different connotations when we use it just like when Japanese people use it. For instance, if I were to say something like ただの外人ですからね ("I'm just a foreigner") then I would be putting myself down, whether I meant it sarcastically in a way to attack someone's prejudices or jokingly to offer an excuse for not knowing a word or some fact about Japanese history or whatever.

My guess as to why we would use it would be that we want to, ironically, show that we are a part of the Japanese circle by showing a knowledge of the language and how it's used, but perhaps it also shows a sense of comaraderie amongst non-Japanese and serves to bring us closer together and comfort us in our knowledge of the fact that we'll always be outsiders. There also may be some destigmatizing effect involved, the way many black people started using "nigger" to refer to each other. Of course, I don't think the two words are really comparable (although nowadays "nigger," or "nigga," has come to be used to refer to anyone you're friends with by some young people irrespective of race, but initially there was absolutely no positive connotation inherent in the word), but some people may perceive "gaijin" as only being a slur and by using it they can take some of the sting out of it.

[Damicci]

I also don't play the idiotic P.C. game of 外国人 = "okay" and 外人 = "offensive".

Thank you, Foreign is foreign. Only be upset if they mean it in an offensive way.

[doinkies]

I agree with Damicci and Mike Cash.

[Maciamo]

I agree it may be unpleasant to think about but 白人 is Caucasian, 黒人, black etc. What are they supposed to use instead? That is their language. :okashii:

The language belongs to the person who use it. Would you argue that the English should be the only ones allowed to define the rules and usage of the English language because it is their language ?

[Maciamo]

I have no problem with the words. I use both 白人 and 外人 as descriptors for myself, when appropriate. I also don't play the idiotic P.C. game of 外国人 = "okay" and 外人 = "offensive".

I dislike the use of 白人 for Caucasians only because to me East Asians are as white as Caucasians.

I dislike the use of both 外国人 and 外人 as they mean the same and have the same intention to exclude ("not us", "not one of ours").

[Damicci]

I dislike the use of 白人 for Caucasians only because to me East Asians are as white as Caucasians.
I dislike the use of both 外国人 and 外人 as they mean the same and have the same intention to exclude ("not us", "not one of ours").
But isn't that the case? Unless they come up with new classifications for Non Japanese residents in Japan (e.g. American-Japanese, African-Japanese, Chinese-Japanese) Like we have here then thats what you are. Non Japanese, a foreigner. It's not like it's "really" meant to say "Hey you guys are not Japanese hahaha we shall label you hahaha" It's mainly classification. Unless I am missing something, there is no true intentional disrepect with the word. Just some Japanese can use it offensively if they choose.

[Maciamo]

I don't use the word gaijin when i speak japanese, but on an English forum like this one, this word seems to show up quite frequently, and i somehow use the word on an English forum, because others use it. Is gaijin an english word already? I find it strange that many gaijins prefer to use this word gaijin, while many others complain about its racist connotations?

I guess that those who have no problem its use are those who see themselves so different from the Japanese that they will never be associated with them. These are the people who haven t tried to integrate into Japanese society. Given the numerous negative connotation of the word "gaijin", I would say one must also be fairly thick-skinned or, on the contrary, naive to like being called like that.


I myself grew up overseas in 4 different countries, i've been a foreigner most of my life time. But i don't take offense at being considered a foreigner, because i am! I like the aloofness, rootlessness, etc of a global nomad.

Funny, I have a similar experience, also fee somehow "nationless" or like a global nomad, but I dislike being referred to by a word that is meant to exclude me, especially when I am living in that country, try to integrate, and that exclusion word is used by people I know well.

[Maciamo]

But isn't that the case? Unless they come up with new classifications for Non Japanese residents in Japan (e.g. American-Japanese, African-Japanese, Chinese-Japanese) Like we have here then thats what you are. Non Japanese, a foreigner. It's not like it's "really" meant to say "Hey you guys are not Japanese hahaha we shall label you hahaha" It's mainly classification. Unless I am missing something, there is no true intentional disrepect with the word. Just some Japanese can use it offensively if they choose.
The connotation is not about nationality. As I said above, naturalised foreigners are still called "gaijin". But what bugs me most is that "gaijin" really means not belonging to the group, not knowing things Japanese people do, not being able to understand Japanese sensitivity... It means all this. That is why I say it is meant to exclude, in a negative way. When I hear gaijin, I hear "you will never be able to be like us", even if you speak Japanese and are naturalised Japanese. That is why I feel it has racist connotations.

Just so that you understand the importance of the connotation behind a word, the word "negro" just means "black" in Spanish. "Nigger" is just a deformation from "negro". So if calling someone "Black" is ok, then "negro" and "nigger" should be fine as well. It is a naive mistake to think that the words "gaikokujin" and even more the informal "gaijin" only mean "outsider" or "foreigner" in a neutral sense. Some Japanese may tell you it is fine, but I also know some Caucasians who think it is perfectly fine to call a Black a nigger.

[Damicci]

The connotation is not about nationality. As I said above, naturalised foreigners are still called "gaijin". But what bugs me most is that "gaijin" really means not belonging to the group, not knowing things Japanese people do, not being able to understand Japanese sensitivity... It means all this. That is why I say it is meant to exclude, in a negative way. When I hear gaijin, I hear "you will never be able to be like us", even if you speak Japanese and are naturalised Japanese. That is why I feel it has racist connotations.
This is just my opnion of course, but unless you want to be Japanese then that shouldn't be what you hear when the word is mentioned around you. :relief:


To add to the "nigger" that was MEANT to be offensive. I don't recall reading about gaijin meaning to be offensive. Now I am not as educated as you are so I am sure I have missed quite a few things. It just seems to me that it is only offensive when used in that manner. But I do undertsand your point in total.

[Glenn]

I just remembered one of my teachers telling me a story about one of his experiences with the word "gaijin." He said that he was walking down the street, and a kid said "it's a gaijin!" The kid who was with him happened to be friends with my teacher's son, and he said "that's not a gaijin; that's Ken's dad!" My teacher would never be mistaken for Japanese going by looks alone.

I don't know how representative this is, though. I think it would be interesting to ask Japanese people how they think of the word (I've never done so, so I don't really know).

[Maciamo]

This is just my opnion of course, but unless you want to be Japanese then that shouldn't be what you hear when the word is mentioned around you. :relief:

Well I guess the problem is that I was trying hard to integrate into Japanese society, learn as much as could about the country, have a Japanese family, got a permanent residency, and still got called "gaijin" even by people who knew me very well ! It hurts somehow. They could just have said 西洋人 or 欧米人 if they wanted to stress the fact that I was from Western or European origin. No need to use a word that means "outsider that will never belong here".

[Glenn]

I'm assuming your wife wasn't one of those people.

[Damicci]

Well I guess the problem is that I was trying hard to integrate into Japanese society, learn as much as could about the country, have a Japanese family, got a permanent residency, and still got called "gaijin" even by people who knew me very well ! It hurts somehow. They could just have said 西洋人 or 欧米人 if they wanted to stress the fact that I was from Western or European origin. No need to use a word that means "outsider that will never belong here".

:( I am sure that sucks. I would figure after awhile terms would change and labels become different once you get to know someone. In your case Maciamo I think I woudl prefered to be call アメリカ人 over 外人・外国人. Especially when people know your origins and what not. Sorry to hear that.

[Maciamo]

:( I am sure that sucks. I would figure after awhile terms would change and labels become different once you get to know someone. In your case Maciamo I think I woudl prefered to be call アメリカ人 over 外人・外国人. Especially when people know your origins and what not. Sorry to hear that.

Except that I am not American.:blush: In fact, when I am not pointed by children in the street who shout "gaijin da ! gaijin da !", it is "Hello America !", and it does not make me feel better, given that I am not American, and even if I were I would find it strange to associate Caucasian with "America" when the place of origins or Caucasians is Europe and Europe still has twice more white people than the USA.

[Damicci]

I know, just an example. I have heard the hello america comment before though. Ah ignorance.

[RockLee]

You can see western people do that too, you know. When there's a Chinese or asian person those stupid people say something like "ching chang chong" or make karate moves with the sounds or act like total retards. It happens to me often when I tell people I'm studying Japanese and I've been there & to China. It's not only Asian people, we have our own load of ignorant westerners.

[Ma Cherie]

After reading these posts I came to the conclusion that, I think the reason why foreigners have a problem with the word gaijin is possibly because whenever a Japanese person says "hey look, there's a gaijin!" to me, it seems like they have to make the point that you're not Japanese. This is possibly the reason why foreigners who live in Japan get offended, even though the word gaijin is supposed to be neutral. But if I lived in Japan, I wouldn't like it if I had to be reminded that I'm not Japanese.

[Maciamo]

You can see western people do that too, you know. When there's a Chinese or asian person those stupid people say something like "ching chang chong" or make karate moves with the sounds or act like total retards. It happens to me often when I tell people I'm studying Japanese and I've been there & to China. It's not only Asian people, we have our own load of ignorant westerners.

Yes, but at least you can categorise such people as lower class (actually, what you described is almost my definition of 'lower class'). In Japan it exist throughout the spectrum of classes.

[Maciamo]

After reading these posts I came to the conclusion that, I think the reason why foreigners have a problem with the word gaijin is possibly because whenever a Japanese person says "hey look, there's a gaijin!" to me, it seems like they have to make the point that you're not Japanese.

That is partly the reason, yes. It sounds like a childish "You are different ! Haha !".

[Elizabeth]

After reading these posts I came to the conclusion that, I think the reason why foreigners have a problem with the word gaijin is possibly because whenever a Japanese person says "hey look, there's a gaijin!" to me, it seems like they have to make the point that you're not Japanese. This is possibly the reason why foreigners who live in Japan get offended, even though the word gaijin is supposed to be neutral. But if I lived in Japan, I wouldn't like it if I had to be reminded that I'm not Japanese.
It's gonna be an absurdly strong reaction of some nature in any case. If you're ever there and walk down the street reading a Japanese paper, the stares are of shock, disbelief and often admiration, particularly with luggage clearly showing tourist ; if you're confident and look like you know what your business is, it's cowed amazement ; if it appears a foreigner is lost or is sure which direction to turn the wonder turns to patronizing pity and ridicule (more like you'll find in some small towns regardless).

I've long given up taking these reactions as a gauge of anything personal and just go about the affairs I'm familiar with speaking normal Japanese and let the ignorance lie where it may -- as long as no one tries to get away with the "hey defective gaijin" label/epitaph ( 不良外人 ). :p :okashii:

[Damicci]

According to my girlfriend. She only uses 外人 or 外国人 when she knows nothing of the person or the origin. Once she knows enough information then she can refer to them based on thier nationality.

[Ma Cherie]

I can only imagine the frustration that foreigners must feel. I'm know it doesn't bother some people, but it bothers others. I understand that Japan is still fairly isolated, but that's no excuse for treating foreigners like they're something to be seen in a circus. :mad:

[Damicci]

It's like that here. I took my EX to My home neighborhood (majority black) and she was stared like "WTF!" because she is Asian. It happens all over in areas where people don't normally see those types of faces on a regular basis. I went to Fukuoka and supposedly there aren't many blacks there. Yes I saw more whites than blacks but nobody really stared me down.

[ArmandV]

I can only imagine the frustration that foreigners must feel. I'm know it doesn't bother some people, but it bothers others. I understand that Japan is still fairly isolated, but that's no excuse for treating foreigners like they're something to be seen in a circus. :mad:

From what I've seen, some foreigners look like they do belong in a circus.

Each time I've been in Japan, I've never been treated any way other than respectfully. Maybe some here were hanging out in the wrong sections.

[Elizabeth]

From what I've seen, some foreigners look like they do belong in a circus.
Each time I've been in Japan, I've never been treated any way other than respectfully. Maybe some here were hanging out in the wrong sections.
I've never been deliberately shown disrespect, I'm sure most of the behavior here is quite unconscious and culturally based. It also depends on the level of integration and expections from the non-Japanese side. The first 2-3 times I was there I didn't care who spoke to me in what language or didn't notice little tics and oddities that you start to question with time, I was so overwhelmed trying to digest and enjoy the experience itself. And gradually gotten used to the less savory aspects from that point forward. :relief:

[JimmySeal]

I think it's silly to think that the Japanese should invent a new word for "foreigner." What's insulting about "gaikokujin" is the way it's used, not its etymology. The word "foreign" comes from a Latin word meaning "outside," so foreigner is almost identical in meaning to gaikokujin.

One probably notices after a little time in Japan that Japanese people use the word "gaikokujin" more than we would usually use the word "foreigner." I think the reason for this is simple. The Japanese at least believe themselves to be a homogeneous unmixed race, and almost all of them are asian-looking, so it's easy (they believe) to pick out the ones that aren't Japanese and refer to them as gaikokujin. In the US, we have a diverse mixture of races, and we can't tell by sight who lives there and who doesn't. We tend to group people by race: white, black, hispanic, Asian, Indian, and I think we'd be more likely to use the words "tourist" or "immigrant" rather than "foreigner." I personally would prefer to be called 白人 or 欧米人 rather than 外国人 but I doubt that's going to start happening.

To answer osias' question, I think non-Japanese usually use the word "gaijin" with a degree of sarcasm as if to say "we're not accepted here, and we know that," which is sort of what Glenn was saying.

[Maciamo]

I think it's silly to think that the Japanese should invent a new word for "foreigner." What's insulting about "gaikokujin" is the way it's used, not its etymology. The word "foreign" comes from a Latin word meaning "outside," so foreigner is almost identical in meaning to gaikokujin.
It's about connotation and the way it is used and abuse, not the root of the word. How many times do you call someone who look different than you a foreigner without actually knowing whether they are ? It's automatic for Japanese people, and they use that word much too much. It's a national obsession.

One probably notices after a little time in Japan that Japanese people use the word "gaikokujin" more than we would usually use the word "foreigner".
Exactly.
I think the reason for this is simple. The Japanese at least believe themselves to be a homogeneous unmixed race, and almost all of them are asian-looking, so it's easy (they believe) to pick out the ones that aren't Japanese and refer to them as gaikokujin. In the US, we have a diverse mixture of races, and we can't tell by sight who lives there and who doesn't. We tend to group people by race: white, black, hispanic, Asian, Indian, and I think we'd be more likely to use the words "tourist" or "immigrant" rather than "foreigner."
I don't think that Americans are in the best position to judge Japanese society on this because justly the USA is too diverse and multiethnic, and does not have a long-standing and fairly homogenous culture (everybody brings their own culture, as they say). Europeans may be better at comparing their country with Japan, as 50 years ago (before the decolonisation) Europe was more ethnically homogenous than Japan today. Some countries are more ethnically homogenous than others though (e.g. Nordic countries are more than France or the UK, even disregarding immigrants).
I personally would prefer to be called 白人 or 欧米人 rather than 外国人 but I doubt that's going to start happening.
One of the major things that trouble me about the use of "gai(koku)jin" is that it doesn't differentiate countries or regions of origins. All foreigners are alike for the Japanese. Gaijin are like this, gaijin are like that. Often, they mean "Westerners", but they could as well talk about Indians, Arabs, Chinese, Africans or Mexcians. In 4.5 years in Japan I have very rarely heard Japanese people call the people they were referring to by nationality (e.g. Indians), ethnic group (e.g. Caucasians) or linguistic group (e.g. English speakers). In 95% of the cases, it's just "gaijin". That's why I say it has such a strong connotation of "not ethnically nor culturally Japanese" rather than "foreigner".

[caster51]

All foreigners are alike for the Japanese. Gaijin are like this, gaijin are like that. Often
because we dont know where they come from.
if we know their nationality once, we call them ...jin
it is simple

for Example Zico is from brasil.
we never call him gaijin or gaikokujin.

[JimmySeal]

I don't think that's always true. I think people call me gaikokujin even after they learn my nationality. Either that or they ask me "Do other gaikokujin yaddayadda?" Now I may be more knowledgeable than the outside world than they are, but for the most part the only other foreigners I know are Americans, so they should say "American!" And they don't need to use that word before they know my nationality either. If they want to say "Can your gaikokujin friend eat fish?" to someone assuming that I'm ignorant to their language, they can call me "kono hito/kono kata."

[Maciamo]

because we dont know where they come from.
if we know their nationality once, we call them ...jin
it is simple
for Example Zico is from brasil.
we never call him gaijin or gaikokujin.

That's not true. Many people who know where I am from continue to call me "gaijin". For famous people, I also heard people call them "gaijin" rather than by their nationality. It bugged me that even my wife would ask me such questions as "how do gaijin do this ?" or "what do gaijin think about this ?" when she meant either Westerners, or Europeans, or Belgians, or just my relatives... (depending on the question).

[Dutch Baka]

I don't have a problem with the word, although I understand that when you look at the word closely it sounds racist. When I talk about myself as a foreigner in Japan, I call myself Gaijin, my wife calls me gaijin and also friends call me gaijin.

When a person looks at you and says heyzz gaijin, it means heyz foreigner! so I don't see any difference in gaijin, foreigner, or person from another country.

So the WORD itself isn't racist in my opinion

[Damicci]

I don't have a problem with the word, although I understand that when you look at the word closely it sounds racist. When I talk about myself as a foreigner in Japan, I call myself Gaijin, my wife calls me gaijin and also friends call me gaijin.
When a person looks at you and says heyzz gaijin, it means heyz foreigner! so I don't see any difference in gaijin, foreigner, or person from another country.
So the WORD itself isn't racist in my opinion

clap clap it's not the word it's the way it is used. Some use it wrongfully other mean no harm.
Meh Anyway I am done beating this horse.

[Mike Cash]

How many of you are saying "call xxx gaijin" when what you really mean is "refer to xxx as gaijin" ?

[Glenn]

...Either that or they ask me "Do other gaikokujin yaddayadda?"

It bugged me that even my wife would ask me such questions as "how do gaijin do this ?" or "what do gaijin think about this ?" when she meant either Westerners, or Europeans, or Belgians, or just my relatives... (depending on the question).

Did you answer them with そんなこと知ってるわけねえだろ！ガイジンはみんな同 じなわけじゃないぜ。("how the hell am I supposed to know that?! It's not like all foreigners are the same.")? I think that something like that would be my answer (or a more polite version, depending on who the person is).

[Maciamo]

Did you answer them with そんなこと知ってるわけねえだろ！ガイジンはみんな同 じなわけじゃないぜ。("how the hell am I supposed to know that?! It's not like all foreigners are the same.")? I think that something like that would be my answer (or a more polite version, depending on who the person is).

Of course I answer that ! I have said that to hundreds of people when I was in Japan. I sometimes felt like my life was telling people that not all non-Japanese were alike ! Talk of pissing me !

[caster51]

Of course I answer that ! I have said that to hundreds of people when I was in Japan. I sometimes felt like my life was telling people that not all non-Japanese were alike ! Talk of pissing me !
I think it is natural to call you a gaijin because of your comments.
You also are generalizing the Japanese by a lot of prejudices.
you try to generalize the Japanese more.
than you are also generalized as gaijin

[JimmySeal]

Maciamo and I and probably others are speaking from personal experience, not prejudice. We've had Japanese people talk to us this way dozens of times and we're not trying to say that all Japanese people talk that way, but a lot do, while you claim that none do.

If we wanted to act in a similar way, we'd be saying things like, "I hate how Asians are always calling me a gaijin. They're all the same." But the next time someone asks me, "Do all foreigners own guns?" I think I'll reply, "No. Do all Asians own samurai swords?"

[Glenn]

If we wanted to act in a similar way, we'd be saying things like, "I hate how Asians are always calling me a gaijin. They're all the same." But the next time someone asks me, "Do all foreigners own guns?" I think I'll reply, "No. Do all Asians own samurai swords?"

Yeah, after I posted what I did earlier, I thought that I might go with a question similar to theirs to see how they reacted, like you "samurai swords" example.

[caster51]

personal experience
it is the most important for him.
I can undeestand why he is called gajin bocause of his comments that are inculuded in all category.
it has nothing to do with ppl who does not know at all.
he is fooled.
he must notice abou that early.

[GodEmperorLeto]

When there's a Chinese or asian person those stupid people say something like "ching chang chong" or make karate moves with the sounds or act like total retards.
Sounds like they are total retards, then.

One probably notices after a little time in Japan that Japanese people use the word "gaikokujin" more than we would usually use the word "foreigner."
Yeah. We have a tendency to actually ask people where they are from. If we don't know exactly which country a person is from, we'll go by continent, and say "European, Middle-Eastern, Asian, Indian, South American/Latin American, African."

To be honest, at least 80% of the times I've ever said the word, "foreigner" it was in reference to the band.

I think it's silly to think that the Japanese should invent a new word for "foreigner." What's insulting about "gaikokujin" is the way it's used, not its etymology.
It is silly. They shouldn't.

I don't think that Americans are in the best position to judge Japanese society on this because justly the USA is too diverse and multiethnic, and does not have a long-standing and fairly homogenous culture (everybody brings their own culture, as they say).
This is actually one of the reasons Americans rarely say "foreigner". Most of the foreign-born people I know well ended up staying here, making "foreign" a temporary term in many instances. Except for some few Southerners, most Americans will admit that the location of your birth and heritage of your parents isn't what makes you American, it is what you think and feel, and what language you speak.

Honestly, though, it is often difficult for us to go to other countries, because to us, nationality can be a choice. And when we travel abroad, and realize that, at best, we can only be American expatriates but never anything more, it is a very difficult thing to come to terms with.

[Mike Cash]

I guess that those who have no problem its use are those who see themselves so different from the Japanese that they will never be associated with them. These are the people who haven t tried to integrate into Japanese society.

I'm not sure I like being told I haven't tried to integrate into Japanese society by someone who couldn't cut it in Japan when he found out it wasn't a nation of people who think, speak, and act like Western Europeans while looking like Asians. In fact, were I not so bemused I might go so far as to take offense at it.

And don't get me started on how hilarious it is that the very people who take the most offense at having their foreignness pointed out or commented on in general rely on their foreignness to put a roof over their heads and food on their tables while they're here.

[Elizabeth]

I guess that those who have no problem its use are those who see themselves so different from the Japanese that they will never be associated with them. These are the people who haven t tried to integrate into Japanese society. Given the numerous negative connotation of the word "gaijin", I would say one must also be fairly thick-skinned or, on the contrary, naive to like being called like that.
It doesn't sound from this like you see yourself as very similar to the average person either....:?

I don't have anything to add on the the difference that context makes with the use of "gaijin." That's been covered to say the least. Just to make it clear though, I'm not sure anyone has said that they 'like' these terms or prefer them over a more specific word. Even sensitive and well-meaning Japanese people will try to minimize its frequency. ;)

[Mars Man]

During my stay here in Japan, I can only recall two times that someone had called me 'gaijin' in a setting (context and tone of voice) that would have been negative, or with ill intent.

To that extent, I have never had any problems with it. I am aware of those who choose 'gaikoku jin' for political correctness, but understand that 'gaijin' would of course fit perfectly there without any ill will or sense of slur. MM

[Rich303]

But isn't that the case? Unless they come up with new classifications for Non Japanese residents in Japan (e.g. American-Japanese, African-Japanese, Chinese-Japanese) Like we have here then thats what you are. Non Japanese, a foreigner. It's not like it's "really" meant to say "Hey you guys are not Japanese hahaha we shall label you hahaha" It's mainly classification. Unless I am missing something, there is no true intentional disrepect with the word. Just some Japanese can use it offensively if they choose.


I would tend to agree with what Damicci said above.

I heard my friend refer to me as gaijin on the phone, when booking a hotel room for me in Tokyo. It didn't bother me because she was just letting the hotel owner the situation. I scrape by in Japanese and it might be difficult for a Japanese person who doesn't speak English, so she needed to check if it was OK for me (a foreigner) to stay there.

[Minty]

Of course I answer that ! I have said that to hundreds of people when I was in Japan. I sometimes felt like my life was telling people that not all non-Japanese were alike ! Talk of pissing me !

I can relate to this, I totally understand why you feel this way, but my experiences varies from people of many different ethnic groups who make judgement based on ignorance, unlike yours that seems to mainly concentrated on Japanese people.

I dislike the use of 白人 for Caucasians only because to me East Asians are as white as Caucasians.

Ha-ha, my husband also said I have white skins.

[Gaijinian]

The first night I arrived in Japan, I was sitting in Mosu Ba-ga-, and some little kid just kept asking his mom, "Gaijin-san, dare?" Gaijin-san, for Christ's sakes. I highly doubt he would have asked his mom, "nihonjin san dare?," had I have been Japanese...

[Kaleikuiha]

E? Doko na... Anywho the whole Gaijin thing is what it is... since I'm not a citizen of Nihon nor am I Nihonjin in any way... I know that I'll be a Gaijin but atleast I'm not called yanki, shiro, or something for more insilent than baka Gaijin! ^^;;
Ja ne!

[Minty]

The first night I arrived in Japan, I was sitting in Mosu Ba-ga-, and some little kid just kept asking his mom, "Gaijin-san, dare?" Gaijin-san, for Christ's sakes. I highly doubt he would have asked his mom, "nihonjin san dare?," had I have been Japanese...

Hmmm you know it appears in homogenous societies like Japan and Taiwan, kids over there are so curious about foreigners.

Gaijinian when are you going to Taiwan?

[Gaijinian]

I leave August 17.

[changedonrequest]

The first night I arrived in Japan, I was sitting in Mosu Ba-ga-, and some little kid just kept asking his mom, "Gaijin-san, dare?" Gaijin-san, for Christ's sakes. I highly doubt he would have asked his mom, "nihonjin san dare?," had I have been Japanese...

So..you are the "gaijin-san" I also give the kid a TON of credit for attaching -san.

Also if you knew enough Japanese to understand that, why didn't you just turn look the kid in the eye and say "Boku-da!"

The kid probably would have shut up in an instant and the mother would be apologizing for her child's rudeness.

If you don't like it then say something.

[Gaijinian]

If you don't like it then say something.
One hyphenated word: JET-LAG.

Anyway, it seems Europe is just as racist as Japan, really. The way the treat their Muslims... I was watching this one Canadian news report, and this one English woman kept complaining about Muslims dressing in traditional Muslim cloths. She was saying things around the lines of, "They're in our country, they should act like us... I'd act like them in their country ,"ect... I doubt her statement was true, though...

Plus, I was listening to NPR, and I heard a report about banning racial slurs and attacks at the World Cup; apparently this was a big deal, as racial slurs were so common... :okashii:
So...

[Kaleikuiha]

Ufufufufufu... "Gaijin san dare?" It's wierd thou I get.. "are you asian?" When I don't even look Asian in any way well that I can tell. I just get "Oh, you speak Japanese!" when I'm answering all of their questions in Nihongo.

[changedonrequest]

One hyphenated word: JET-LAG.

Was it that big of a deal? Can you honestly say you were offended?

If I started writing here how many times I have heard the word used in 20 years of living here this message board would run out of server space.

It probably doesnt help much that I literally stand head and shoulders above just about everyone else here too!:relief:

[Gaijinian]

Was it that big of a deal? Can you honestly say you were offended?
I don't know if I was offended, but I was surprised at how blatantly he asked.

If I could re-do the situation, I would have said, "Amerika no daitouryou da yo." It surely would have been funny... Zannenn:blush:

[changedonrequest]

I don't know if I was offended, but I was surprised at how blatantly he asked.

Fair enough, welcome to Japan.

I would be willing to make a guess that the kid never had any second thoughts about using the word either.

The word isn't a racist slur, nor is it demeaning either.

[Gaijinian]

...nor is it demeaning either.
Surely it can be! I have studied Japanese language and culture 一生懸命 for over half of my life, and yet I am still an outsider just because I was not born in Japan... To me, it is slightly demeaning; then again, it depends on the person. This is not a black-white, I'm right you're wrong typed issue.

Anyone know the book 地球の歩き方? Well, I bought it for Taiwan, and there was this great caption: 天母(the name of the place)は外国人や台湾のお金持ちが多い住宅街。 That made me smile, cuz guess what! in this case, Gaikokujin includes Nihonjin!

[Glenn]

About the kid, I think it's just a general thing that kids are too honest at times, you know? They just don't hold back when they should, because they don't know any better. I think I was fussed at for saying that someone was fat to their face when I was a kid.

[changedonrequest]

Surely it can be!

Oh sure just like the word "immigrant" or "foreigner" in English can be deaming too. Do you or anyone for that matter, complain about the term when it is used in English?

It all depends on how it is said and used, and it also matters to the (over) sensitivity of the person hearing it.

It is "only" demeaning to you if you choose to let it be so, no matter how someone say's the word "gaijin" all that matters is you choosing to be offended or not, and if you or anyone chooses to be offended.

[Mike Cash]

About the kid, I think it's just a general thing that kids are too honest at times, you know? They just don't hold back when they should, because they don't know any better. I think I was fussed at for saying that someone was fat to their face when I was a kid.

It is far better to take a couple of seconds and interact with the kid on a human-to-human level and bust his gaijin cherry, for lack of a better term.

I was once shopping in a supermarket in Tokyo when a little girl of about 5 years old looked at me and remarked to her mother what a big nose I have (being a gaijin, you know). Her mother told her she shouldn't say such things. The child's reply was "It's alright. He can't understand me anyway."

You could have knocked her over with a feather when I told her, "Yes, I can".

I knelt down at her level and told her that anybody, Japanese or foreigner, would be pleased if such a cute kid said hello to them, in Japanese or English, and that she should try that next time.

The best way to fix people's attitudes and actions is person-to-person, one person at a time.

[GodEmperorLeto]

You could have knocked her over with a feather when I told her, "Yes, I can".
I knelt down at her level and told her that anybody, Japanese or foreigner, would be pleased if such a cute kid said hello to them, in Japanese or English, and that she should try that next time.
That's awesome. You win.

The best way to fix people's attitudes and actions is person-to-person, one person at a time.
Absolutely. That's something I've been trying to say for a while.

Oh sure just like the word "immigrant" or "foreigner" in English can be deaming too. Do you or anyone for that matter, complain about the term when it is used in English?
I said it before, I'll say it again: we really don't. Well, we don't use "immigrant" as derogatory ever because 75% of us on the East Coast are descended from immigrants. As for foreigner, I already said that to many Americans, status as foreigner is considered temporary and/or a choice.

On top of that, we've been educated (brainwashed?) with political correctness so much that many of us are incredibly sensitive to potentially offensive words, so we usually try not to point out someone's foreign status.

In comparison, the word "gaijin" is symptomatic of a dualistic view of ethnicity--you are either Japanese or you aren't. In addition, full-blooded Japanese Americans I know who returned to Japan after one or two generations have informed me that they are considered gaijin. The word can absolutely be used offensively.

In other words, it is all based on outlook. In the United States, the culture has a very inclusive attitude. Being American is a matter of choice, not birth. In most countries, including many other Western countries, that isn't the case. And Japan, with its dualistic view, is very exclusive.

[Mike Cash]

Surely it can be! I have studied Japanese language and culture 一生懸命 for over half of my life,

I glanced over at your age and suppressed a giggle.

You're falling into the same trap Maciamo did. You're assuming that those 一生懸命な studies alone are or ought to be a ticket to something.

and yet I am still an outsider just because I was not born in Japan...

Have you ever even been here?

You know, you could come hang out at my company for a day. That would make two gaijins there; me and you.

One would be an insider, and one would be an outsider. And it wouldn't be based on where we were born. This whole "Oh woe is me....I'm doomed to always be an outsider because of my birth. How tragic to have it brought home to me by this horrible term, gaijin" crap is waaaaay the hell overplayed by people who think that just being within the borders of the country or having studied the language/culture out of a damned book is the price of admission to insider status.

We English speakers have the expression "in the same boat". Japanese have the expression ”同じ飯を食っている”. You want to be inside....get in the damned boat. 99% of foreigners in Japan stand on the pier and look at the boat and wonder why they're not considered sailors.

[Damicci]

This whole "Oh woe is me....I'm doomed to always be an outsider because of my birth. How tragic to have it brought home to me by this horrible term, gaijin" crap is waaaaay the hell overplayed by people who think that just being within the borders of the country or having studied the language/culture out of a damned book is the price of admission to insider status.
We English speakers have the expression "in the same boat". Japanese have the expression ”同じ飯を食っている”. You want to be inside....get in the damned boat. 99% of foreigners in Japan stand on the pier and look at the boat and wonder why they're not considered sailors.
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Oh man If it weren't so much I would add that as a quote in my signature.
You sir "are the man now dog!"

[changedonrequest]

We English speakers have the expression "in the same boat". Japanese have the expression ”同じ飯を食っている”. You want to be inside....get in the damned boat. 99% of foreigners in Japan stand on the pier and look at the boat and wonder why they're not considered sailors.

You da' man alright, I love that line....."get in the damn boat":lol: :lol: :lol:


So damn true as well.

In other words, it is all based on outlook. In the United States, the culture has a very inclusive attitude. Being American is a matter of choice, not birth. In most countries, including many other Western countries, that isn't the case. And Japan, with its dualistic view, is very exclusive.

Excuse me, the US is also exclusive of foreigners as well, and the word immigrant still carries negative connotations to many. But for arguments sake only I'll conceed the point, as I personally know people who still think otherwise. There are plenty in the USA that think the same way as well about "damn foreigners" or "immigrants"

You think Japan is exclusive, go to China, from what I hear they are even worse. This is Asia, I am getting tired of people expecting things to be the same everywhere around the damn world. I am tired of people judging Japan and it's people before taking the forests out of their own eyes.

The word can absolutely be used offensively
I'm getting a bit tired of repeating myself on all these threads about this word, think what you want to think. You want to think that you are being discriminated against because someone calls you gaijin, go ahead. Did I ever say it couldn't?

You know what you got it all wrong, it's only offensive if someone has a chip on their shoulder that allows themselves to be offended by the word.


By extension with your way of thinking half the Japanese language is probably offensive because of the way it can be used to offend someone. Well maybe not half but a 1/3 possibly.

My point...any word can be used offensively.

Have you or anyone else here for that matter noticed that at a minimum there are 2 people posting on some of these literally obnoxious threads about "gaijin" this or "Japan is racist that...." that have literally over 40 years of combined experience in living in Japan, living in two totally different locations, not knowing each other, outside of a few posts here on Jref, saying damn near the same thing. It isn't a big deal.

Think about that. :relief:

[Gaijinian]

Have you ever even been here?
Would I be out-of -the loop if I haven't? Oh, I forgot I was talking to the man who has been in Japan so long that he lost track of the actual amount of time he's been there....:okashii:
Anyway, obviously I have been there, or I could not have told my personal story (kangaetoitekure)
This whole "Oh woe is me....I'm doomed to always be an outsider because of my birth. How tragic to have it brought home to me by this horrible term, gaijin"
It is not the term, it's the use of the term. I know I'm not Japanese--that's a given. But, I am human; it shouldn't be that much of I shock that a fellow ningen, nihonjin or gaijin, can use chopsticks, ect... Really what it comes down to is ignorance, rather that the actual term.
I glanced over at your age and suppressed a giggle.
What does my age have anything to do with it...? First, I'm not good enough for this conversation because of my short amount of time spent in Japan (surprising Mike Cash would make that an issue), and then because of my age... Sorry for interfering in your forum, Mr. Cash-sama. Moushiwake arimasen.
同じ飯を食っている
Random side note: I've also seen this as "同じ釜の飯を食った (I guess te'ru could also work)."
Well, that's my rant for today (believe it or not, I'm in quite the good mood right now). Bye!:blush:

[GodEmperorLeto]

Excuse me, the US is also exclusive of foreigners as well, and the word immigrant still carries negative connotations to many.... There are plenty in the USA that think the same way as well about "damn foreigners" or "immigrants"
There are in all countries. Nevertheless, it is easier to become an American and accepted into American society as one than most other countries.

You think Japan is exclusive, go to China, from what I hear they are even worse.... I am tired of people judging Japan and it's people before taking the forests out of their own eyes.
I'm not making judgements. I'm pointing things out. I'm not arguing that the Japanese should change. I'm not attacking their outlook or their way of life, nor am I criticising their language and idioms.

You know what you got it all wrong, it's only offensive if someone has a chip on their shoulder that allows themselves to be offended by the word.
So, by your logic, anyone should be able to say the word "nigger" then? And don't say that the word is loaded and has 300 years of history behind it, either, that'd be a cop-out.

This isn't Derrida or Noam Chomsky here. You are arguing "linguistic turn" postmodern literary criticism here without even realizing it. A word can be meant as offensive by the speaker regardless of how it is recieved.

Yes, I can control my reaction to how a word is recieved. However, the intent is totally generated by the person speaking, and the speaker is equally valid as the listener in any form of discourse. That's a basic of communication. Yes, the listener has control over his reaction to the speaker. But you are completely devaluing the role of the speaker.

You are drawing conclusions about my comments that I never intended to make. I'm not condemning people for their use/misuse of the word gaijin, I'm just trying to discuss the basic facts. And I am not attacking Japanese language or making value judgements. But that shouldn't stop me from calling a spade a spade here. And I didn't say the word was constantly used offensively, I just remarked at its potential, and some of the conclusions we can draw from the meanings of the word; insight into the Japanese mindset if you will.

Have you or anyone else here for that matter noticed...
Yes, I have, actually. And I do believe they might be biased, but that doesn't make what they have to say any less important. Honestly, much of what Maciamo has said has blown away many misconceptions I've had. But don't let your opposition to their claims bolster your own bias, Hachiro. I take everything Maciamo says with a grain of salt, but I believe some of it deserves to be said nonetheless. No society is perfect, and the good has to be taken with the bad. Too many people discuss the good and not the bad sometimes.

[Hyokano]

I don't think Japanese people have any racist intent behind their use of the word "Gaijin" (knowing this as a Japanese myself). Isn't that simply short for "Gaikokujin", which has pretty much the same meaning? Although, it is true that "Gaikokujin" sounds more formal because this way you have "koku" in the middle meaning "country" and that it specifies someone as a person (or people) from overseas. In this sense, if you loose the "koku" part, it just ends up meaning "outsider", but still it is harmless in intent. It just really depends on how people use it.

Besides, there's no other way or word to really say foreigner.

[Mike Cash]

Would I be out-of -the loop if I haven't? Oh, I forgot I was talking to the man who has been in Japan so long that he lost track of the actual amount of time he's been there....:okashii:
I know precisely how long I've been here, just like every other gaijin does. I just choose not to make a big deal out of it or pretend it means anything.
Anyway, obviously I have been there, or I could not have told my personal story (kangaetoitekure)
I must have missed your personal story somehow.
It is not the term, it's the use of the term. I know I'm not Japanese--that's a given. But, I am human; it shouldn't be that much of I shock that a fellow ningen, nihonjin or gaijin, can use chopsticks, ect... Really what it comes down to is ignorance, rather that the actual term.
Alright....it comes down to ignorance.
So what?
What does my age have anything to do with it...?
This is what your age has to do with it:
http://www.walldrug.com/prints/pr4large.jpg
First, I'm not good enough for this conversation because of my short amount of time spent in Japan (surprising Mike Cash would make that an issue), and then because of my age... Sorry for interfering in your forum, Mr. Cash-sama. Moushiwake arimasen.
Sarcasm isn't your strong hold. Either practice up on it or give a rest entirely.
I never said you're not good enough for this conversation. I just asked if you had ever even been here. I can easily enough guess you've never lived here. As for your age...I only mentioned it because it's cute (see the picture, above).

[changedonrequest]

I'm not making judgements. I'm pointing things out. I'm not arguing that the Japanese should change. I'm not attacking their outlook or their way of life, nor am I criticising their language and idioms.


Fair enough, I apologize if I was reading too much into your posts so far. I dont want this to get into a dissertation about the differences in the societies and cultures either, as that would truly be a "Never ending story......" Sorry about that.

No society is perfect, and the good has to be taken with the bad. Too many people discuss the good and not the bad sometimes.

Unfortunately imo, at least recently anyway, too many threads here are started with that in mind and it gets a bit tiresome reading all the negativity that people write about a perceived "slight" all due to their, misunderstanding, arrogance, and or ignorance of the Japanese culture and a simple word like "gaijin".

[Mike Cash]

Foreigners who make their livings in Japan due entirely to the fact that they are foreigners and who then b*tch and whine about having their foreignness noticed or commented on are sort of like strippers climbing down off the runway, pulling dollar bills out of their g-strings, and then bitching and whining that somebody kept staring at their boobs.

[Pachipro]

I said it before in other posts and I'll say it again here, to me the word "gaijin" means "not Japanese", period. That's why it is used when referring to Japanese born and raised in other countries and then returning to Japan. They are not Japanese and were not born and raised in Japan.

"Oh woe is me....I'm doomed to always be an outsider because of my birth. How tragic to have it brought home to me by this horrible term, gaijin" crap is waaaaay the hell overplayed by people who think that just being within the borders of the country or having studied the language/culture out of a damned book is the price of admission to insider status.

As usual, Mike says it best. I don't care if you (you in general) live there for 50 years, obtained Japanese citizenship, vote, know the language and culture better than most Japanese, and die there, you will still be a gaijin in my opinion even to your friends who know you are an "insider".

Foreigners have been whining about this term forever and it seems they will continue to do so for all eternity. Accept it and move on or go through live with a chip on your shoulder. The choice is yours.

[GodEmperorLeto]

My first point is that this discussion is has been waged on two different threads in two different departments. Tempers are flaring, and people have stopped communicating and instead have begun asserting personal biases more than discussing the situation.

Foreigners have been whining about this term forever and it seems they will continue to do so for all eternity. Accept it and move on or go through live with a chip on your shoulder. The choice is yours.
This is totally true. It is true you'll never be an insider or truly accepted. But it also accords you a variety of opportunities. This doesn't mean you should go nuts like Tom Green and block escalators and do other ridiculous stuff like that just to mess with their Japanese minds, that's asinine. But it does mean that you may be accorded a degree of leeway that many Japanese would not be.

[Mike Cash]

It is true you'll never be an insider or truly accepted.

A mind block which generations of foreigners have used as an excuse to remain comfortably in the little gaijin niches the Japanese expect them to be in.

People overlook the very obvious fact that even within our own countries there are places and circumstances in which each and every one of us will find ourselves either rejected or marginalized for one reason or another.

Japanese aren't immune to this. Being Japanese isn't a carte blanche pass to acceptance in all places in Japanese society. Neither is being a foreigner an automatic bar to acceptance in all places in Japanese society.

It's just too easy too fall back on that us/them dichotomy and assume that everything is closed off due to Japanese xenophobia/racism/cliquishness rather than try to move beyond the stereotypes.

If I hadn't believed the above, I'd still be stuck teaching English like everybody expects a good little white boy to do.

[Gaijinian]

Sarcasm isn't your strong hold. Either practice up on it or give a rest entirely.
Thought I'd give it a try...

[changedonrequest]

If I hadn't believed the above, I'd still be stuck teaching English like everybody expects a good little white boy to do.

I only do it because I enjoy it. I also am given the opportunity to teach the little buggers that there is a bigger world out there besides Japan and the US, or Japan and "gaikoku".

Mike I agree with you on the following as well;

A mind block which generations of foreigners have used as an excuse to remain comfortably in the little gaijin niches the Japanese expect them to be in.

People overlook the very obvious fact that even within our own countries there are places and circumstances in which each and every one of us will find ourselves either rejected or marginalized for one reason or another.

Japanese aren't immune to this. Being Japanese isn't a carte blanche pass to acceptance in all places in Japanese society. Neither is being a foreigner an automatic bar to acceptance in all places in Japanese society.

It's just too easy too fall back on that us/them dichotomy and assume that everything is closed off due to Japanese xenophobia/racism/cliquishness rather than try to move beyond the stereotypes.

You only are what you let yourself be.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I was wondering, what sort of definition are we giving to "racial slur" right now? Gaijin isn't really a rascist term because it is not directed towards any races/nationalities in particular or anything, but rather just a general (even if sometimes not a very polite/respectful) term given to anyone who isn't japanese.
I think people just don't like the term gaijin a lot of the time because they don't like to be made to feel like an outsider all the time or grouped up into steriotypes etc. Are there actually any other names or words for foreigner in japan (respectful/polite or not) apart from gaikokujin? If not, then what else can japanese call people who are foreigners to the country? Just curious :? ...

[changedonrequest]

I was wondering, what sort of definition are we giving to "racial slur" right now? Gaijin isn't really a rascist term because it is not directed towards any races/nationalities in particular or anything, but rather just a general (even if sometimes not a very polite/respectful) term given to anyone who isn't japanese.
I think people just don't like the term gaijin a lot of the time because they don't like to be made to feel like an outsider all the time or grouped up into steriotypes etc. Are there actually any other names or words for foreigner in japan (respectful/polite or not) apart from gaikokujin? .

It's an equal opportunity racist remark towards any and all foreigners living in or outside of Japan. So I guess you could say it's Japan against the rest of the world with this term. :D :D :D :D :D :D


And to those that actually believe that.....:clueless: :clueless: :clueless:


If not, then what else can japanese call people who are foreigners to the country? Just curious :? ..


Hmmmm.....gaijin?

[gaijinalways]

That's a good point, in a sense 'gaijin' is not racist, rather it is exclusionary in a sense. I really doubt you would continually refer to your friends as Japanese if they had lived in your country a long time (and taken citizenship or permanent residence). As to calling returnees 'gaijin', that just seems stupid, but of course that's my take on it, i.e. I don't usually think of the world as Americans and non-Americans.

[JimmySeal]

Are there actually any other names or words for foreigner in japan (respectful/polite or not) apart from gaikokujin? If not, then what else can japanese call people who are foreigners to the country? Just curious :? ...
Gaikokujin is a fine word for "foreigner." What gets our hackles up is that the average Japanese person seems to use the word "foreigner" about 40 times more often than the average person in any other civilized country. Half the time, they use the word "gaikokujin" when the words man, woman or person would suffice.
--------------------------
On a separate note, I was watching the World Cup with a friend last night (I know nothing about spectator futbol, and had to ask even to find out where it was being played), and I asked where Japan's player Alex Santos was from. My friend answered probably Brazil, but that he naturalized as a Japanese citizen, then she said "Nihonjin desu." I thought that was interesting.

As the players were leaving the field for halftime, my friend said that gaikokujin are large and so the Japanese players are at a disadvantage and get tired more easily. It occurred to me that it's silly to say "people throughout the rest of the world are big" when it's really just that the Japanese players are small. Still I'm not even sure that there was much of a size difference. Maybe just a case of self-victimization.

[changedonrequest]

What gets our hackles up is ...

First off speak for yourself "our hackles up...." It's pretty arrogant to assume that "us" agrees with you.

Half the time, they use the word "gaikokujin" when the words man, woman or person would suffice.

I guess you have a rather shallow knowledge of Japanese to make a statement like this, you are expecting the Japanese people to use Japanese as a English speaking person uses English, and that just isn't going to happen.

I just have to ask this, are you one of the perverbial "punks on a lark" here in Japan.

If that's the case it would explain everything.

[lonesoullost3]

Well yes, I agree with Hachiro's comment on your post Jimmy, do be careful ^_^.

Alex Santos ..."Nihonjin desu."
But what you said about Santos is interesting. But, 日本人 can be used to describe not only ethnicity, but citizenship - there is no other term as far as I understand (but someone correct me if I'm wrong, I've only had a year of Japanese and I know I have much to learn). This being true, then it stands that アメリカ人 would be perfectly suitable for someone from the US instead of 外人. But 外国人 is still legit - but just a much broader term. Technically (though not in my limited experience in Japan - which will broaden some this summer ^_^), 外人 can be used to refer to someone who is not of your group, such as a professor from another university. Whether this is used in practice or not, and how common it is (referencing my limited experience), I simply don't know.

[JimmySeal]

OK first of all Hachiro, calm the f*** down. Take a few deep breaths. What I said didn't merit such hostility, but since I've known you to fling poo here before, I'm not particularly surprised.

When I used the word our, I wasn't referring to everyone on this board. I wasn't referring to every non-Japanese person in the world and I certainly wasn't referring to you. I was assuming that there are people who agree with me, which is a reasonable assumption to make. I would bet that Maciamo and probably a few others feel the same way as I do about this matter, and if not, well then I was using the royal we, which wouldn't be the end of the world.

The overuse of the word gaikokujin reflects an additude, in my opinion, that all non-Japanese should be lumped into one group, and they should be treated differently from Japanese people most of the time. But maybe I'm all wrong because apparently I missed this section in the authoritative text from which you learned Japanese:
Vocabulary
person (Japanese) - hito
man (Japanese) - otoko
woman (Japanese) - onna
person, man, woman (non-Japanese) - gaikokujin
If someone complained about the way that many American southerners refer to black people, would you say, "Don't criticize them. That's just the way they use their language."?
And I have no idea what a punk on a lark is.
-------------------------------------
You're right LoneSoul, nihonjin does technically extend to all people with Japanese citizenship, but I was surprised to see someone go out of their way to call Santos a nihonjin. And as far as I know, nobody uses the word gaijin except to refer to foreigners.

[changedonrequest]

And I have no idea what a punk on a lark is.

Someone on the JET program or otherwise known as a human tape recorder.
.

[JimmySeal]

Someone on the JET program or otherwise known as a human tape recorder.
.

You really burned me there.

Gender:
Male
Occupation:
Tape Recorder
Japan-related interests:
Japanese language
Other interests:
music


After working my arse off through four years of high school and four years of college, I figured I owed it to myself to take an overseas vacation with a $30,000 salary. Once I'm done here, I'll use my engineering degree and language certification to get a nice job making more money than you ever will.

[changedonrequest]

I figured I owed it to myself to take an overseas vacation with a $30,000 salary. Once I'm done here, I'll use my engineering degree and language certification to get a nice job making more money than you ever will.

Good lord, grow up. Where ever you go or live you will still be a "gaijin"
http://www.barking-moonbat.com/images/crybaby.jpg

[JimmySeal]

Sure. Because I'm so immature, I have to insult people I know nothing about, and make up imaginary characteristics for them. Oh waiddaminute. It was you who did that. See? I'm so ignorant I can barely keep the facts straight. You're really wasting your time trying to reason with a fool like me. Ha ha I did it again. You're not trying to reason with me. You're just flinging unsubstantiated insults. Intelligent...thought...failing...


Luckily for me, my self-esteem isn't wrapped up in trying to fit into a group, but in your case, always remember: 出る杭は打たれる。

[gaijinalways]

Guys, you're drifting off thread. Certainly there are expectations within certain countries to act a certain way, but this is where value systems come in to play. If I move to the MiddleEast, I'm not suddenly going to feel that blowing people up because they have a different religion than me is okay. So as to that is the way they do it, it would be nice (though not necessarily realistic) if japanese people would start thinking about how others see it, namely the ones that they use the label for. Since they themselves don't seem to like it when it is used to refer to them, I would suspect that it is showing a sort of class judgement, which in a sense would be insulting to most people.

[Mike Cash]

If someone complained about the way that many American southerners refer to black people, would you say, "Don't criticize them. That's just the way they use their language."?

Please tell me how American Southerners refer to black people in a way that is unique to American Southerners.

(I never heard blacks referred to as "baboons" until I went to that great Southern city, Philadelphia.)

[changedonrequest]

Luckily for me, my self-esteem isn't wrapped up in trying to fit into a group,

You have no idea how hard I laughed when I read that one. I am the farthest thing from a person trying to fit into a group....unless it is a group of one...meaning me, myself and I.... oops that's a group of three!

I am a realist Jimmy and the longer you live here you will understand more and more that the system and people are not going to change for you. I am a chameleon, I adapt to the situation that I am in, nothing more nothing less.

You are either an idiot or a naive child if you think the Japanese people are going to change for you, you'll just end up being another one of those arrogant "gaijin" that are "put" up with but never really listened to or cared about, they will forget about you the day before you leave.

[Mikawa Ossan]

The overuse of the word gaikokujin reflects an additude, in my opinion, that all non-Japanese should be lumped into one group, and they should be treated differently from Japanese people most of the time.
Could you elaborate on this point? I'd like to hear what you have to say.

[JimmySeal]

Please tell me how American Southerners refer to black people in a way that is unique to American Southerners.
(I never heard blacks referred to as "baboons" until I went to that great Southern city, Philadelphia.)
The only thing unique about the way Southerners refer to black people, if anything, is the lack of reserve they have towards various words beginning with 'n' and 'c.' Besides, I never said there was anything unique about the South. It was merely an example, but there sure are places where people don't talk like that. To the best of my knowledge, they don't have any unique terminology.

Could you elaborate on this point? I'd like to hear what you have to say.
Other people have covered this in depth, but it seems all too often that when people who've known me for several months talk about me, they use the word "gaikokujin" rather than "Amerikajin." Calling me an American would obviously convey the fact that I'm foreign, but that bit of information is irrelevant. I'm foreign, and that's all they really want to say. It's also often the case that when people want to ask me questions about other people like me, they ask "Do other gaikokujin yadda yadda?" or "In gaikoku, blah blah?" How the heck should I know information that encompasses all the non-Japanese in the world? I lived in New Jersey all my life before I came here.

It's often the case that Japanese people assume I'm ignorant of their language because I'm not Asian. If I go out to dinner with an Asian person, even if I speak to the waiting staff in Japanese, most of the time any information that the waiter/waitress wants to give me will usually be directed at the Asian person. Here they are assuming:
(1) that I don't understand Japanese
(2) that my Asian friend does understand Japanese. This because they assume that any Asian in Japan is surely not one of those gaikoku Asians.
(3) that my Asian friend speaks English or whatever my native language may be (because of #1)
they're usually wrong on at least two of those counts, and even if they were right on all 3, it would still be deplorable. In most countries, even when speaking to someone through an interpreter, one speaks towards the other person, not the interpreter. And I don't want to hear that this is a "cultural difference." Racism isn't a cultural trait to be respected. It's just rude.

[gaijinalways]

Jimmyseal posted Here they are assuming:
(1) that I don't understand Japanese
(2) that my Asian friend does understand Japanese. This because they assume that any Asian in Japan is surely not one of those gaikoku Asians.
(3) that my Asian friend speaks English or whatever my native language may be (because of #1)
they're usually wrong on at least two of those counts, and even if they were right on all 3, it would still be deplorable. In most countries, even when speaking to someone through an interpreter, one speaks towards the other person, not the interpreter. And I don't want to hear that this is a "cultural difference." Racism isn't a cultural trait to be respected. It's just rude.

Yeah, seems to be common here, 1, 2, and 3. As to speaking to you or the interpreter, hopefully both, rather than one or the other. Quite a few Japanese have looked at both of us when my wife has helped with interpreting (and my wife expects and asks me to do the same, not just look at her when I am replying).

As to whether that would be racism or not, seems more like a set of bad assumptions, which is acting on a bias and a stereotype of non-Japanese.

[Mikawa Ossan]

After I started thinking of it as a numbers game, I stopped getting so upset over this phenomenon.

Knowing nothing about someone other than the way they look, which would you think is more likely to understand Japanese, someone who looks Asian (perhaps Japanese, even), or some white or black guy?

My vote goes for the Asian.

[Mike Cash]

In the course of googling answers for the map thread, I came across this old post which is relevant here:

http://tinyurl.com/l45d6

[Mikawa Ossan]

Well, who initiates the conversation is obviously an important factor.

The problem is that one will never be able to say anything that will encompass the entire human experience as relates to this issue.

My point is that it just isn't worth getting upset over this. I have met my share of whities and blackies in Japan, and the number who could seriously carry on a conversation in Japanese was dwarfed by the number who couldn't. That is just my personal experience. I would be willing to place money down that the average Japanese person has a relatively comparable experience.

But here I feel it important to place a disclaimer. If anyone remembers, in old posts I have argued that this problem isn't necessarily as big as some would have you believe. I'm trying to think of the last time I was called a gaijin and it offended me. I really can't recall.

I can think of people who just assumed I couldn't speak Japanese even though I was speaking directly in front of them. No problem. I just don't associate with such people in the future.

But even so, it's really not worth getting upset over. Those times are far outweighed by the number of times that people didn't even bat an eye at me speaking Japanese. I have had it where people talked solely to me and looked only at me while they were actually speaking to some other foreigner.

This is hard to do perhaps, but don't look at Japanese people as Japanese. Don't look at yourself as a foreigner. Look at people as just plain people. You'd be amazed at how much that solves right there.

If you want people to change, often the best recourse is to change yourself and show a good example.

[gaijinalways]

Mikawa Ossan posted This is hard to do perhaps, but don't look at Japanese people as Japanese. Don't look at yourself as a foreigner. Look at people as just plain people. You'd be amazed at how much that solves right there.
If you want people to change, often the best recourse is to change yourself and show a good example.

Hmm, sometimes this doesn't seem to be enough. Or sometimes what might be best is to just decide what is going to bother you and what won't. Actually what bothers me more is when foreign residents defend older Japanese discriminating because they are old! This just doesn't cut it in my world, let the old guys crawl back under a rock somewhere:wave: .

[changedonrequest]

This is addressed to those that it matters most to....and NO individual in particular.

I've pretty much given up posting on this thread purely because there are way too many idealist's (read that as still matriculating or VERY recent graduates) and not realist's. You can also read that as naive to life and reality and still living in the coccoon of academia, where they were nutured by likewise thinking professors similar to a baby nursing at it's mother's breast.

They attempt to resort to falling back on to lessons recently learned in school to arrogantly critize a people a society and by default a country that they know little about from practical experience. They rely on what they were taught from textbooks, teachers or the internet.

You want to carry a chip on your shoulder's for the rest of your life because you think you are being discriminated against from the use of the word "gaijin" go ahead. In the long run it is you that will turn into the thing that disgusts you the most. Purely because you do not have an open mind (oh you say you do, but in reality not so) and expect other peoples and cultures to bend to your ways.

To me you will never be satisfied until this country Japan, and for that matter the world as well, bends to your misguided, yet altruistic view that the world will only be a better place when everyone accepts your misguided and arrogant view of political correctness.

Oh to those reading this and thinking; "What a condescending f**" fine, then in truth this may be directed towards you, and you might be better served by taking a deep breath and stop worrying about or being bothered by something so tiny and insignificant as the word "gaijin". It will save you a hell of a lot of stress and frustration, along with a better acceptance from those Japanese around you as well, who also in reality, don't really appreciate constantly hearing "gaijin" complain about them, their way of speaking and their country. Oh and lastly if it bothers you so much "Why the hell do you stay here?"

[JimmySeal]

Wow, Hachiro, you really do think you're better than some of us, don't you? Well, I hope you don't teach that kind of punctuation to your students. When you boast so proudly about being a real English teacher and not a charlatan like me, one would think that you could get things like that right.
After I started thinking of it as a numbers game, I stopped getting so upset over this phenomenon.
Knowing nothing about someone other than the way they look, which would you think is more likely to understand Japanese, someone who looks Asian (perhaps Japanese, even), or some white or black guy?
My vote goes for the Asian.
Remember now, that they are also assuming not only that this Asian person understands Japanese (in many cases they don't understand Japanese), but they are also assuming that this Asian person can interpret Japanese into my language. So the odds we're really looking at are "Asian person understands Japanese and speaks my language" vs. "white person understands Japanese." I'd say the odds are pretty split. Besides all that, they should be facing me because I'm the customer they're speaking to, and if I need my Asian friend to interpret what they said, that's fine. They can hear the waiter just fine if the waiter is facing me.
Also let me reiterate that most of the time, the waiters demonstrate this behavior after I've already ordered things and spoken to them in Japanese.

[changedonrequest]

Wow, Hachiro, you really do think you're better than some of us, don't you? Well, I hope you don't teach that kind of punctuation to your students. When you boast so proudly about being a real English teacher and not a charlatan like me, one would think that you could get things like that right.


FYI, You are writing things that I never said nor claimed. In your case, and your case alone, yeah I due think I am better, at least in knowing a bit more about the culture and people here in Japan. Take that as you may, I really dont care.

Also let me reiterate that most of the time, the waiters demonstrate this behavior after I've already ordered things and spoken to them in Japanese.

So get used to it, it isnt worth losing any sleep over it, and for that matter the people are not going to change. It's just a part of life here, if you dont like it and it bothers you that much leave.

[jieshi]

Wow, Hachiro, you really do think you're better than some of us, don't you? Well, I hope you don't teach that kind of punctuation to your students. When you boast so proudly about being a real English teacher and not a charlatan like me, one would think that you could get things like that right.


Stop making personal attacks on everybody, it only slows down what you are trying to debate and you are responding a little too emotionally to most things that are being said in this thread.

Everybody has a view on this subject and many of those have been expressed. Personally I have lived in Japan as an exchange student, most people knew I could speak Japanese and still called me the Gaijin, they were not being racist but simply relaying information to other parties (even if it was irrelevant but we still need to keep in mind that gaijin are a rarity in Japan when compared with the native population).
The entirety of my stay in Japan only one person ever called me Gaijin with a racist connotation attached to the word, most waiters and general public who didn't realise I spoke Japanese responded with "Oh my gosh, you speak really good Japanese, that is so cool!". While it could be debated this gesture may be a nicety on behalf of the said party, generally they really meant what they said.

Also note most foreigners in Japan do not speak Japanese, therefore most Japanese will assume you don't speak Japanese, it is a stereotype that is very likely to not be overcome anytime soon, even the politest, western loving Japanese person is going to assume you don't speak Japanese (and then might proceed to practice their English on you).
In the end it is your choice whether you get upset and emotional about being called a "Gaijin", many people don't seem to care and this is demonstrated by jref (and many other websites) users choice of username e.g. "gaijinalways", "gaijingirl", "gaijingaijin" etc.
If you are really so offended by this term it then begs the question "why are you living in Japan if you feel so discriminated against?" or "What makes Japan so appealing to you in order to overshadow this thing that offends you so much?"

If your (JimmySeal) behaviour towards others in this thread is any indication of your behaviour or attitude towards Japanese people (or anybody on earth) in day to day life, then chances are people will direct racist connotations your way along with a slur of other insults as it seems you don稚 have much grace in your day to day dealings with others.

(please note I am not making a personal attack or "flame" against anybody I am only noting what I have seen throughout this thread)

[ArmandV]

A wise man once observed, "He who has a thin skin, should not live in Japan."

[jieshi]

A wise man once observed, "He who has a thin skin, should not live in Japan."

lol fantastic!

[JimmySeal]

Stop making personal attacks on everybody, it only slows down what you are trying to debate and you are responding a little too emotionally to most things that are being said in this thread.
Have you been following this thread, or did you just jump in, read the last post (mine) and infer the other 115 posts based on that knowledge?
Since you chose to use the word "everybody," please name two people at whom I directed personal attacks in this thread. Since you are scolding only me, I'm going to have to assume that you missed the place where Hachiro sent a flurry of vitriol my way (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=356367&postcount=98) merely for expressing my opinion. The post you are criticizing is a post in which I was responding to a post of his which contained many insulting comments which were not necessarily directed only at me, but were definitely directed at me nonetheless.
Also note most foreigners in Japan do not speak Japanese, therefore most Japanese will assume you don't speak Japanese, it is a stereotype that is very likely to not be overcome anytime soon, even the politest, western loving Japanese person is going to assume you don't speak Japanese (and then might proceed to practice their English on you).
If waiters want to speak to me in English, that's fine. I'll even ignore the fact that they assumed that I understand English. But that's not what I was talking about.
If you are really so offended by this term it then begs the question...
Please don't use that expression. You're not using it correctly.
If your (JimmySeal) behaviour towards others in this thread is any indication of your behaviour or attitude towards Japanese people (or anybody on earth)...
It's not. I only behave that way towards rude people with hyperinflated egos.

[ArmandV]

I only behave that way towards rude people with hyperinflated egos.


Jimmy, it is the tone of your posts that is offending some here (keep in mind I am not taking sides on the main issue). Whether you realize it or not, you do sometimes come off snide and sarcastic.

[changedonrequest]

The post you are criticizing is a post in which I was responding to a post of his which contained many insulting comments which were not necessarily directed only at me, but were definitely directed at me nonetheless.


You assume too much there Jimmy. Now why in the world would I want to direct a post towards you. :clueless: Like I wrote in that post and I am quoting myself here;

This is addressed to those that it matters most to....and NO individual in particular.

and

Oh to those reading this and thinking; "What a condescending f**" fine, then in truth this may be directed towards you, and you might be better served by taking a deep breath and stop worrying about or being bothered by something so tiny and insignificant as the word "gaijin". It will save you a hell of a lot of stress and frustration, along with a better acceptance from those Japanese around you as well, who also in reality, don't really appreciate constantly hearing "gaijin" complain about them, their way of speaking and their country. Oh and lastly if it bothers you so much "Why the hell do you stay here?"

By replying as you have I can see that you might be well served by the advice written here.

ArmandV makes a great point that imo would serve you very well.


A wise man once observed, "He who has a thin skin, should not live in Japan."


Now unless someone other than you Jimmy makes a comment on this thread I am done with it. Jimmy feel free to make any comments you'd like, I am sure you want to get in the last word here. :cheer:

P.S. I see you already have......oh and btw might I point out that you didn't even know what the term "punks on a lark" refered to when I wrote that. To those that "know" it is an semi-accurate term to describe many though not all, JET's that are teaching here in Japan. If the shoe fits....

Oh forgot one thing if you think you were insulted then you most definetly have a very thin skin, because my dear boy if I was going to insult you you'd know it, and that was nothing.

[JimmySeal]

Whether you realize it or not, you do sometimes come off snide and sarcastic.
Now that's a statement I can live with. Sometimes I am snide and sarcastic. But I feel that when someone blatantly insults me, it's in my right to retaliate (and here I'm referring to only one person). jieshi is making assumptions about the way I talk based on a single post of mine, which may I remind you was directed at someone who, out of the blue, called me arrogant, trashed my knowledge of Japanese, and hypothesized that I am a punk, merely because I said the following:
Gaikokujin is a fine word for "foreigner." What gets our hackles up is that the average Japanese person seems to use the word "foreigner" about 40 times more often than the average person in any other civilized country. Half the time, they use the word "gaikokujin" when the words man, woman or person would suffice.

[gaijinalways]

Jieshi said In the end it is your choice whether you get upset and emotional about being called a "Gaijin", many people don't seem to care and this is demonstrated by jref (and many other websites) users choice of username e.g. "gaijinalways", "gaijingirl", "gaijingaijin" etc.
If you are really so offended by this term it then begs the question "why are you living in Japan if you feel so discriminated against?" or "What makes Japan so appealing to you in order to overshadow this thing that offends you so much?"

True, we can choose how we react, butit would be nice to have some recognition, rather what seems to be more common is a double standard where Japanese often overlook stereotyping and discrimination as a 'shoganai situation' when I would interpret their comments more as I don't want to bother to change my behaviour, even though it is considered unacceptable in most other developed countries (and these same Japanese will complain about this kind of behaviour when encountering it overseas).

I think you are overlooking some other factors, such as career, costs of moving, possible Japanese spouse, etc. There are also factors I like here, but the named thread habit is not one of them.

[JimmySeal]

I agree. There are countless good things about this country, and it's silly to think that someone would just up and leave because they feel disrespected at times. Thanks for holding this thread together, gaijinalways.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Remember now, that they are also assuming not only that this Asian person understands Japanese (in many cases they don't understand Japanese), but they are also assuming that this Asian person can interpret Japanese into my language.A fair assumption to make if that Asian person and you entered the establishment together. Also, about the Asian being able to understand Japanese: I'd say a good 90~98% of Asians in Japan are in fact native Japanese speakers. That an Asian in Japan can understand Japanese is a pretty good bet, I'd say! Also let me reiterate that most of the time, the waiters demonstrate this behavior after I've already ordered things and spoken to them in Japanese.Yes, this happens sometimes. If it really bothers you, you can ask the Asian person to politely tell the store person to address you directly. Just getting upset won't accomplish anything, though.

Hmm, sometimes this doesn't seem to be enough. Or sometimes what might be best is to just decide what is going to bother you and what won't.Well, whether it's enough or not is a matter of debate, but I see that you have found a very workable solution in the long term. That's really what's necessary, wouldn't you agree? Actually what bothers me more is when foreign residents defend older Japanese discriminating because they are old! This just doesn't cut it in my world, let the old guys crawl back under a rock somewhere .Actually, I find this ironic, because I don't think I've ever once faced discrimination from an older Japanese! Quite the opposite. I find older Japanese to be among the most friendly and accepting people that I've ever met!

[Rich303]

I've ever once faced discrimination from an older Japanese! Quite the opposite. I find older Japanese to be among the most friendly and accepting people that I've ever met!

I have to agree with that.
Most of the conversations with strangers I had in Japan were with older people. They were very nice to me.

[gaijinalways]

Well, I am more thinking of some landlords who refuse to even entertain renting to foreigners and some who might not want you dating/marrying their daughters (sons seem to be less of a protected group). Yet, I have had foreigners who come out and defend these people, something I believe they would hardly do in their own countries (hey, maybe I can use this to defend President Bush's actions, the guy is just like old!).

[ArmandV]

I have to agree with that.
Most of the conversations with strangers I had in Japan were with older people. They were very nice to me.


Same here. I've gone to several Starbucks in Japan and older Japanese sit near and strike up conversations. Many a time I ended up chatting longer at a coffee house than intended.

[Rich303]

Well, I am more thinking of some landlords who refuse to even entertain renting to foreigners and some who might not want you dating/marrying their daughters (sons seem to be less of a protected group). Yet, I have had foreigners who come out and defend these people, something I believe they would hardly do in their own countries (hey, maybe I can use this to defend President Bush's actions, the guy is just like old!).

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I guess I've been lucky !

[Mikawa Ossan]

Well, I am more thinking of some landlords who refuse to even entertain renting to foreigners and some who might not want you dating/marrying their daughters (sons seem to be less of a protected group). Yet, I have had foreigners who come out and defend these people, something I believe they would hardly do in their own countries (hey, maybe I can use this to defend President Bush's actions, the guy is just like old!).
I have had an application for an apartment denied once, but I was not given any reason. When I think about it, of course I can't help but wonder whether the fact that I am a foreigner had anything to do with that, but whatever the reason was, it turned out to be no big deal at all. I quickly applied for another apartment and was quickly accepted.

As for fathers not wanting their daughters to date or marry foreigners, actually I agree with such fathers. If I had a daughter in Japan, I would be highly skeptical of any foreigner (especially white guy) who showed interest. It is not a racist thing, really (even though I understand that it may sound that way). The reason why I feel that way is very simple. Go to a place like the gaijinpot forum and look at the way they talk about women. Revolting, especially from a father's point of view.

[changedonrequest]

As for fathers not wanting their daughters to date or marry foreigners, actually I agree with such fathers. If I had a daughter in Japan, I would be highly skeptical of any foreigner (especially white guy) who showed interest. It is not a racist thing, really (even though I understand that it may sound that way). The reason why I feel that way is very simple. Go to a place like the gaijinpot forum and look at the way they talk about women. Revolting, especially from a father's point of view.

I agree with you here. Not just Gaijin Pot but places like F***d Gaijin and quite a few others as well. Not a very pretty image.


Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan
I've ever once faced discrimination from an older Japanese! Quite the opposite. I find older Japanese to be among the most friendly and accepting people that I've ever met!


I agree with this as well, and to add that the older Japanese that I know are polite beyond neccessity.

So I would say that what it comes down to is this; It's not the word it's the people and since the majority of the Japanese people in my opinion are decent people there is no problem with the word.

A concensus opinion will be impossible to get on thread like this as there are too many that felt slighted or talked down to by a Japanese person when called a "gaijin". I have never met such sensitive people anywhere else in the world. It's almost unbelievable to the point of becoming ludicrous. I truly feel sorry for those people, they have my pity as well, that they let something so minor destroy their experiences here in Japan or maybe not destroy but leave a constant reminder of their difference ness. For many it seems like this is their first experience with being different and sticking out for it, thus they end up blaming and branding the entire country as being guilty because of a few idiots or punks.

[Orionvortex]

personally, whether or not I find it offensive depends on the context. Some people say "gaijin" because they have never been taught that there is a difference between "gaijin" and "gaikokujin". When these people use it I am not offended at all.
However, there are some who clearly know the difference between the two and only use "gaijin" when they are expressing their frustrations over foreigners. In this situation I am a bit offended.
In my experience though, it is easy to tell from the context whether or not you are being discriminated against.

[Maciamo]

I have to agree with that.
Most of the conversations with strangers I had in Japan were with older people. They were very nice to me.

Do you mean older men ? I have also noticed that older men tend to be more confident in general, including for talking to foreigners. Old Japanese women though tend to be just the opposite (in my limited experience of course :-) ).

[Rich303]

Hello Mac,

I suppose it was mainly men;
In Tokyo I had a chat with an old man when I was waiting to meet my pen pal for the first time. And the lovely old guy in Fukuoka who helped me figure out this weird beer tokens machine in a bar.
There was also the cafe owner and his friend the Jazz musician/bar owner in Nagasaki and a taxi driver.

I did meet a nice lady too with her husband, but she did all the talking.
However, I imagine people in Nagasaki are more used to gaijin, so maybe this was a factor.

As a lone traveller, encounters such as these are what give me warm memories of Japan.

[ArmandV]

Do you mean older men ? I have also noticed that older men tend to be more confident in general, including for talking to foreigners. Old Japanese women though tend to be just the opposite (in my limited experience of course :-) ).

For me, older Japanese men seem more outgoing and will want to chat. Not so with older Japanese women. However, younger Japanese women will want to chat.

[Pachipro]

Other people have covered this in depth, but it seems all too often that when people who've known me for several months talk about me, they use the word "gaikokujin" rather than "Amerikajin." Calling me an American would obviously convey the fact that I'm foreign, but that bit of information is irrelevant. I'm foreign, and that's all they really want to say. It's also often the case that when people want to ask me questions about other people like me, they ask "Do other gaikokujin yadda yadda?" or "In gaikoku, blah blah?" How the heck should I know information that encompasses all the non-Japanese in the world? I lived in New Jersey all my life before I came here.
And I lived all my life in Brooklyn, New York before I went to Japan.
But here I feel it important to place a disclaimer. If anyone remembers, in old posts I have argued that this problem isn't necessarily as big as some would have you believe. I'm trying to think of the last time I was called a gaijin and it offended me. I really can't recall.
But even so, it's really not worth getting upset over. Those times are far outweighed by the number of times that people didn't even bat an eye at me speaking Japanese. I have had it where people talked solely to me and looked only at me while they were actually speaking to some other foreigner.
I have to agree with Mikawa on this one as it never once offended me and it is not as as big a deal as some would have you believe. Why? Because I understood the Japanese mentality for using this word.

Look at it this way. It is a generic term much the same way we use the word "Xerox" for copying, or "FedEx" for sending an overnight envelope, or "escalator" for moving stairs, etc. Do these companies get upset? Hell no. So why should we when the Japanese use the word gaijin when referring to someone not of the Japanese nationality? It is generic, plain and simple. Understand that and you'll have a better experience living in Japan.

I cannot remember the last time I spoke Japanese and the Japanese person I was speaking to, whether it be in a store, on the street, in a strange bar, or whatever, looked at me strange when I was alone, or spoke to my Japanese partner instead of me, or didn't "hear" me. Why? Because I spoke with confidence, without an accent, and without stumbling through my conversation looking for the right word or phrase. They were instantly put at ease by my use of the language. I could call a strangers house or business on the phone and they could not tell if I were a gaijin or Japanese.

Speak non-fluent Japanese and without confidence and you will encounter what Jimmy Seal mentioned above. I do not know his fluency level or confidence level, but I am just surmising here. I know Maciamo will beg to differ with me as I know he was fluent and probably spoke without an accent, but I almost never encountered the problems he had with Japanese people and businesses.

This does not solely happen in Japan. My Japanese wife and I went to a Korean restaurant some years back here in the US for the first time and when the waitress came to take our order she spoke in Korean to my Japanese wife! Was my wife upset at this? No. We had a laugh over it and she just replied that even Koreans cannot tell weather one is Korean or not as Korean, Japanese and Chinese resemble each other so much.

Also, here in the US, people who do not know us assume that my wife, and all Asians for that matter, are Chinese, regardless of their nationalities. I have never heard any Asian, including my wife, getting upset over this or them writing to the newspapers on how racist and ignorant Americans are. They just take it for what it is: Asian person=Chinese in America.

Therefore, get used to the word gaijin in Japan as a generic term or go through your experience there with a chip on your shoulder and a bitter taste in your mouth and come home regretting your stay and telling everyone how racist the Japanese are. The Japanese are not as PC as we in the west are. The word is generic and can mean American, English, Belgian, Australian, foreigner, alien from another planet, etc. In other words gaijin=not Japanese natiuonality.

It has not changed in over 30 years for me and I doubt it will ever change. But racist the word is not and it does not offend me in the least.

[Pachipro]

You want to carry a chip on your shoulder's for the rest of your life because you think you are being discriminated against from the use of the word "gaijin" go ahead. In the long run it is you that will turn into the thing that disgusts you the most. Purely because you do not have an open mind (oh you say you do, but in reality not so) and expect other peoples and cultures to bend to your ways.

To me you will never be satisfied until this country Japan, and for that matter the world as well, bends to your misguided, yet altruistic view that the world will only be a better place when everyone accepts your misguided and arrogant view of political correctness.
I agree wholehartedly and it always amazes me why gaijin who decide to live and work in Japan get so offended at this and want to change the entire culture and thinking of a nation so set in it's ways and with more than a thousand more years of history and culture than the US. Sometimes this PC crap drives me up a wall.

Shouldn't it be us gaijin who should study the culture and thinking of the country we are living and working in and claim to enjoy so much and learn to adapt to their ways? After all it is us gaijin who freely went to Japan.

Why is it that gaijin from the west want to change Japan (I don't know know about other Asian countries) when they live here and demand that change by getting so upset over it? As I said above it will never change and why should it? If I didn't like it I could've always just packed my bags and left. Personaly I like Japan just the way it is and I never felt discriminated there save for getting turned down for an apartment twice. But my thinking on this is, hey, it is their land and their property. If they don't want to rent to me it is their perrogative. Who the h*ll am I to say, "rent me your apartment or I will sue you, write the newspapers, and post negative comments on JRef forums about how racist and discriminatory you Japanese are!"

Heck, Japanese landlords, real estate agencies, bars, or hot springs doen't even rent apartments to Japanese themselves or serve them if they have tatoos or don't like the way they look. Do they sue or make a stink over it? No. They just go to the next real estate agency or bar or spa and they will get served.

Personally, if I owned a business or apartment I would like the perogative of who I should serve and who I should rent to and who I shouldn't. I would rather trust and err on my own intuition and experience rather than being forced into something I might regret later on.

Does that make me a racist? Far from it as I am the most non-racist person I know and do not discriminate against anybody. I just go with my intuition and experience. Does that mean I hate all blacks because I got mugged once in New York? NO. Does that mean I hate all Japanese because they picked a fight with me and insulted my fiancee because she was with a gaijin? No. I base each person I meet on my intuition.

I just don't like the government or the PC crowd telling me how to run my life or business. Experience is the best teacher which is probably why I was turned down for an apartment near the US Army base and why foreigners were not allowed in a few bars around there also and why no cab would stop for me on a few occasions. Those people had experience with foreigners and didn't want it repeated. Those those few bast*rds spoiled it for the rest of us.

But do I despise the Japanese people and country as whole for this and demand that they change? I may be in the minority, but heck no I don't. The positive experiences I had there far, far, far outweighed the few negative experiences.

[ArmandV]

I agree wholehartedly and it always amazes me why gaijin who decide to live and work in Japan get so offended at this and want to change the entire culture and thinking of a nation so set in it's ways and with more than a thousand more years of history and culture than the US. Sometimes this PC crap drives me up a wall.



I am in total agreement, but see my 6/21 post in this thread.

[Maciamo]

For me, older Japanese men seem more outgoing and will want to chat. Not so with older Japanese women. However, younger Japanese women will want to chat.

Same observation for me. Younger Japanese women and older Japanese men... These seem to be the most confident (and influencial ?) section of Japanese society.

[Pachipro]

I agree 100%. The younger women and older men were the ones who struck up the most conversations and made the first moves. Middle aged women and older women almost never. However, those that did strike up a conversation or who were friendly towards me, even if they used the word "gaijin" or "gaikoku" in conversation, I never took it to be racist or discriminatory. It's just the way it was and I interpreted it to mean what it was intended.

[Pachipro]

In the course of googling answers for the map thread, I came across this old post which is relevant here:

http://tinyurl.com/l45d6
Great post. You should be posting those experiences here! Great writing style. And I can totally relate to your experience as I experienced a couple of those types of encounters also. The only surprise was that the "gaijin" understood kanji and had a little more info than the Japanese national. In the end they were grateful for the help.

I am in total agreement, but see my 6/21 post in this thread.
I did and gave you rep for a great quote. One I will use in the future I'm sure if that's ok with you. ;-). I'll give you cred though.

[ArmandV]

Great post. You should be posting those experiences here! Great writing style. And I can totally relate to your experience as I experienced a couple of those types of encounters also. The only surprise was that the "gaijin" understood kanji and had a little more info than the Japanese national. In the end they were grateful for the help.

I did and gave you rep for a great quote. One I will use in the future I'm sure if that's ok with you. ;-). I'll give you cred though.


Fine with me.

[nurizeko]

I didnt have any problem with the term gaijin, hell, I use it myself.

However, its fully appriciable that some individuals would find it uncomfortable, even upsetting the way it is used.

Like Japan as a whole, its something someone new to japan must come to terms with themselves, no lying, Japan has its share of problems and issue's. Everyone new to Japan faces just one simple issue, do they accept japan for what it is? or do they decide they are better off elsewhere?.

Much in the sense if you dont like one cafe's coffee, you go to the one down the road.

Fighting over this Japanese word is effectively futile, many of us dont live in Japan, the rest have little hope of being in a position to change it.

Fortunately for us, by luck or Gods good graces, the world is generally big enough for everyone and varied enough for everyone to find somewhere and someone that is suitable to them.

My two cents.

- Nuri

[gaijinalways]

Pachipro,

one thing to keep in mind is that you don't live in Japan now, and some things have changed since you left. Certainly people letting you sleep in their house in their daughter's room doesn't exist anymore, unless you are already a boyfriend at least.

As to Nurizeko's comments, it's true, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change things that are unfair in Japan, especially if we live here.

[Pachipro]

Pachipro,
one thing to keep in mind is that you don't live in Japan now, and some things have changed since you left.
True, I may not live there at present, but that doesn't preclude me from commenting on the topic does it? And could you please tell me some of the things that have changed? As far as I know not much has changed except for the huge amounts of construction going on. And, since I may not be living there that does not mean I have no idea what is going on. I visit frequently and keep up with the country and culture as much as you do living there.

Certainly people letting you sleep in their house in their daughter's room doesn't exist anymore, unless you are already a boyfriend at least.
Could you please point out where I mentioned that in this thread and what, if anything, does it have to do with the topic at hand? Or, maybe it is a personal attack against me because you have nothing to add to this argument?

As to Nurizeko's comments, it's true, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change things that are unfair in Japan, especially if we live here.
What, if anything, are YOU doing to try and change things? Could you please point out what is unfair about the word. Why are you using "gaijin" in youre handle? I would surmise that one who would like that word to stop being used and who thinks it one of the unfair things about Japan would not use such a word in their name.

You, sir, have not added much to this debate with this post. What exactly are you trying to say?

[gaijinalways]

I was referring to your interesting story about when you first came to Japan, but it in an oblique way. Sorry you didn't pick up on that. And I mean things have changed in a negative way, and as a visitor you wouldn't necessarily pick up on that, as your exposure would definately be more limited than a current resident's would be.

As to my handle, I think generally that is the truth, and there probably is very little most of us non-Japanese can do about it. It is very far and few between foreign residents who are really fully accepted in the local communities here, sometimes regardless of what they believe.

As to what I am trying to change, I think I hit someone's nerve already, so getting people to think about this issue is helpful. I have had some students ask me about my e-mail address as well (which carries a similar handle), and I always ask the student, what do you think it means (usually starts an interesting discussion)?

[Mike Cash]

I have had an application for an apartment denied once, but I was not given any reason.

I've been denied apartments and employment numerous times, with it often being clearly stated that my being a gaijin was the reason. No reading between the lines necessary.

[Minty]

Surely it can be! I have studied Japanese language and culture 一生懸命 for over half of my life, and yet I am still an outsider just because I was not born in Japan... To me, it is slightly demeaning; then again, it depends on the person. This is not a black-white, I'm right you're wrong typed issue.
Anyone know the book 地球の歩き方? Well, I bought it for Taiwan, and there was this great caption: 天母(the name of the place)は外国人や台湾のお金持ちが多い住宅街。 That made me smile, cuz guess what! in this case, Gaikokujin includes Nihonjin!

Yeah, many Japanese people like to live in 天母 which a suburb area in Taipei if they are sent to work in Taipei. It is a very wealthy expensive suburb, my mother's friend used to live there but due to her husband's work they moved from Taipei台北 to Kaoshiung高雄, and they rent out their place to Japanese clients.

Well good luck on your trip to Taiwan, I hope you would have a good time, my husband wasn't too happy in our trip to Taiwan but since you are American and the Taiwanese only know Americans ( sort of like the Japanese in this sense) probably things would be different.

[Harvey]

Haha, good one about the 地球の歩き方。
My Japanese friends though often say that when they to overseas, they are the 外人 though. So I guess they understand what's going on.

[pipokun]

外国人や台湾のお金持ちが多い住宅街。
In this case, the gaikokujin includes Japanese.

[Gaijinian]

...yeah, that's what I said...

[Flashjeff]

The "N" word, used regarding African-Americans is a racial slur, "gaijin" doesn't even come close to qualifying.

[changedonrequest]

I've said pretty much all I have to say here on this topic.

I think that everyone else has as well......I hope it dies out now and goes to that dead thread place in the sky.

Conclusion here;
Gaijin is NOT a racist slur!

[ricecake]

Conclusion here;

Gaijin is NOT a racist slur!



This statement should serve as " closure " to this thread hopefully.:relief:

[Mike Cash]

Don't worry. Someone will reprise the topic within the year.

[edit]

Within the hour, as it turned out.....

[Maciamo]

The "N" word, used regarding African-Americans is a racial slur, "gaijin" doesn't even come close to qualifying.

When I was 6 or 7 years old, all children in primary/elementary school referred to blacks as niggers. There were many jokes which sound very racist to me now, but we had no idea at the time (back in the 1980's). In fact none of us had every met a Black person back then (at best seen one once from afar). I know some adults who didn't (and maybe still don't) mind saying think like "it's as dark as in a nigger's arsehole here". Do some Americans ever say thinkgs like that or has it completely disappeared from society since the introduction of political correctness ? I am not sure whether children here still speak like that nowadays, but I haven't really heard such language for quite a long time I must say. I am pretty sure people would be shocked now, although nobody seemed to care 20 years ago (or maybe I was too young to notice it).

All this to say that the perception of "racist slur" is highly cultural and changes with time and with one's environment. Let's keep in mind that 150 years ago it was perfectly fine for Whites to think of Blacks as inferior barbarians that didn't deserve better than slavery. Western society has made a lot of progress in a few generations. But I know that some non-Western societies haven't, and only start to develop their own racist slurs and stereotypes now, or are a few decades in toning them down. A big portion of Japanese society still believes the 1930's propaganda that they are superior to other Asians. Just ask your Japanese friends what they think of the Chinese or Philipinos...

[BakaAoi]

I believe that Gaijin, even though it is translated as “foreigner”, may, in some ways, be used as a racist slur. To me, it makes it seem as though the word Gaijin is used to isolate those that are not originally from Japan, or of Japanese ethnicity and looks. Which to a visitor, vacationing in Japan may seem like nothing, but to someone who actually wishes to live in Japan, it might prove hurtful and discouraging.
I’m not sure if this would apply to the topic but, where I am from; we have many different ways of saying foreigner (depending on the ethnicity). The one that I would like to point out is the term we use for a white person coming from someplace other then our state or country. Over here we call them “Haule” which translates into white man. Even though when this word was first created I highly doubt that is was used as a racist slur, but now after time it has become one and to those who have been labeled as a “haule” it can be very hurtful. My point it that even though Gaijin is translated into foreigner that doesn’t mean that over time the meaning of it wont change into something less pleasant then it was originally meant to be.

[Pachipro]

Shakespere wrote, "A rose by any other name is still a rose." If you call it a piece of sh*t, it still looks pretty. So even if the word gaijin was purged from the language and a more suitable word was used that would satisfy all foreigners, if one is a racist to begin with, he/she will still have the same ill, racist feelings towards the foreigner when speaking the new word.

Therefore, it doesn't matter what word is used when referring to foreigners as it all depends on the feelings of the person speaking it IMO. Call me a gaijin for all I care as I am an outsider, foreigner, not born in Japan, not Japanese citizen, white skinned, was alien to the culture and will never be a Japanese no matter how long I live there, how well I know the language or if I change my name to Japanese. I am still gaijin and prefer to remain that way thank you.

[kkkktttt]

A big portion of Japanese society still believes the 1930's propaganda that they are superior to other Asians.
1930年代のプロパガンダは「八紘一宇」すなわち、「人 類皆兄弟」です。日本の傀儡国家だった満州国の基本政 策（プロパガンダ）も「五族共和」でした。
日本がなぜこのような「プロパガンダ」を提唱したのか 、当時の世界情勢についてよく調べてください。

ちなみに、1919年に日本が国際連盟の席上で提唱した「 人種差別条項」を率先して葬り去ったのはイギリスです 。
ベルギーが形式上であれコンゴ植民地支配を終結したのは、日本 が敗戦によりすべての帝国主義的利権を失ってから15年 も後の事です。

単なる無知なのか妄信的な西洋優越思想に染まってしま っているのか分かりませんが、もう少し勉強してから発 言した方がよいでしょう。
ネオナチやスキンヘッドの蛮行を見れば、西洋から白人 優越思想が消え去ったとは到底言えません。

「外人」が「nigger」と同等の差別性を有するか否かは 、googleで調べれば簡単に分かるでしょう。
「外人」
http://www.google.com/search?hl=ja&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&num=50&q=%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%BA
「nigger」
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=ja&q=nigger&btnG=Google+%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&lr=

[RockLee]

Could you post that in English too kkkktttt? Because not everyone can understand Japanese :) Thank you!

[DoctorP]

When I was 6 or 7 years old, all children in primary/elementary school referred to blacks as niggers. There were many jokes which sound very racist to me now, but we had no idea at the time (back in the 1980's). In fact none of us had every met a Black person back then (at best seen one once from afar). I know some adults who didn't (and maybe still don't) mind saying think like "it's as dark as in a nigger's arsehole here". Do some Americans ever say thinkgs like that or has it completely disappeared from society since the introduction of political correctness ? I am not sure whether children here still speak like that nowadays, but I haven't really heard such language for quite a long time I must say. I am pretty sure people would be shocked now, although nobody seemed to care 20 years ago (or maybe I was too young to notice it).

I am so sorry to hear this. I come from the "deep south" and I am older than you yet I have always known nigger to be a racist slur and that it should not be used! A little shocked to say the least!


All this to say that the perception of "racist slur" is highly cultural and changes with time and with one's environment. Let's keep in mind that 150 years ago it was perfectly fine for Whites to think of Blacks as inferior barbarians that didn't deserve better than slavery. Western society has made a lot of progress in a few generations. But I know that some non-Western societies haven't, and only start to develop their own racist slurs and stereotypes now, or are a few decades in toning them down. A big portion of Japanese society still believes the 1930's propaganda that they are superior to other Asians. Just ask your Japanese friends what they think of the Chinese or Philipinos...

The term nigger has always been a racist term. Only recently (10-15 years) has it ever been anything but racist and that is only when two blacks use it casually in conversation to refer to each other. So no matter what whites thought of blacks the term was always racist. This has nothing at all to do with political correctness either, but instead mutual respect.

Gaijiin is totally different. You can twist the word to mean whatever you like, but the intended meaning is what it is...foreigner. Take a poll on the street from Japanese and see what they tell you. You know what...I'll do it for you (since you are not able to due to location). Will get back to you later.

[osias]

1930年代のプロパガンダは「八紘一宇」すなわち、「人 類皆兄弟」です。日本の傀儡国家だった満州国の基本政 策（プロパガンダ）も「五族共和」でした。
日本がなぜこのような「プロパガンダ」を提唱したのか 、当時の世界情勢についてよく調べてください。
ちなみに、1919年に日本が国際連盟の席上で提唱した「 人種差別条項」を率先して葬り去ったのはイギリスです 。
ベルギーが形式上であれコンゴ植民地支配を終結したのは、日本 が敗戦によりすべての帝国主義的利権を失ってから15年 も後の事です。
単なる無知なのか妄信的な西洋優越思想に染まってしま っているのか分かりませんが、もう少し勉強してから発 言した方がよいでしょう。
ネオナチやスキンヘッドの蛮行を見れば、西洋から白人 優越思想が消え去ったとは到底言えません。
「外人」が「nigger」と同等の差別性を有するか否かは 、googleで調べれば簡単に分かるでしょう。
「外人」
http://www.google.com/search?hl=ja&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&num=50&q=%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%BA
「nigger」
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=ja&q=nigger&btnG=Google+%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&lr=
Maciamo's perception of history doesn't go beyond eurocentric stereotypes. :blush:

[DoctorP]

I want to clarify something. Political correctness refers to one choosing to use "the N word" in place of "nigger".

Choosing to use the word nigger in reference to someone or a group is in fact racist. For that matter, calling someone or a group: a black man/woman, negro, negroid, spade or any such term would be racist in my book.

[MeAndroo]

I have a question:

Do posters here feel there is a difference between ignorant racism, like a child asking an Asian person if they can see well through smaller eyes, and hostile racism, like a KKK member calling a black person a "nigger?"

If you do, which do you feel is the dominant one in Japan?

Only once have I been called gaijin with any venom, and in truth, we were acting like stupid foreigners. Much in the way Chris Rock separates "niggers" and "black people" by behavior, one may see a distinction in behavior between beligerent foreigners who abuse their status in Japan and those who behave themselves. I rarely experience any sort of real racism in America, due to being born and raised in a highly diverse area, and being of a minority that has arguably been persecuted less (I'm Asian). The only time I felt it was when I was in an Oklahoma hotel, and even then the woman just didn't know better.

[Maciamo]

I am so sorry to hear this. I come from the "deep south" and I am older than you yet I have always known nigger to be a racist slur and that it should not be used! A little shocked to say the least!

This is to show how the local culture and people that make up society influence our perception of racism. I come from a part of the countryside where there wasn't a single Black and most children had never seen one (there are a few now though). In the US Deep South some towns have more Blacks than Whites, and racial tensions are part and parcel of the local history, so the sensitivity (and awareness) toward racism is obviously much higher.

So no matter what whites thought of blacks the term was always racist. This has nothing at all to do with political correctness either, but instead mutual respect.

Exactly. It couldn't bother you if you have never met the kind of person in question. It's like if you made jokes about aliens and never expect to see one. How much would our vocabulary and perception change if one day we do come into contact with extraterrestrial intelligent beings similar to humans ?


Gaijiin is totally different. You can twist the word to mean whatever you like, but the intended meaning is what it is...foreigner.

Different to you English speaker. But nigger is only a corruption from Spanish "negro" which means "Black". In French the racist term is "negre", but everybody knows it comes from "Black". So if Black isn't racist (and I think it isn't anymore than White) why is "nigger" a racist slur ? Becomes of the connotation it has and its usage (jokes, mockery, contempt...) among non-Black people. It is exactly the same with the term "gaijin", as Japanese do use it a lot in jokes, mockery or when wanting to express contempt/superiority toward non-Japanese people.

Take a poll on the street from Japanese and see what they tell you.

Take a poll among Spanish speakers to see if they think that "negro" is a racist slur...

[Maciamo]

Shakespere wrote, "A rose by any other name is still a rose." If you call it a piece of sh*t, it still looks pretty. So even if the word gaijin was purged from the language and a more suitable word was used that would satisfy all foreigners, if one is a racist to begin with, he/she will still have the same ill, racist feelings towards the foreigner when speaking the new word.
Therefore, it doesn't matter what word is used when referring to foreigners as it all depends on the feelings of the person speaking it IMO. Call me a gaijin for all I care as I am an outsider, foreigner, not born in Japan, not Japanese citizen, white skinned, was alien to the culture and will never be a Japanese no matter how long I live there, how well I know the language or if I change my name to Japanese. I am still gaijin and prefer to remain that way thank you.

I agree that replacing the word "gaijin" by another term won't change the problem. The problem is in the attitude (and ignorance) of most Japanese people toward non-Japanese. I wish they could use terms like Caucasians, East Asians, Middle-Easterns, or even better nationalities, more often. All too often all foreigners are just referred to as "gaijin" even when one knows very well where they are from. Here in Belgium I have attended a few meetings with Japanese people with my wife (I was the only non-Japanese), and all of them still refer to the locals (Belgians) as gaijin, eventhough most are married to one. Why can't they say "berugi-jin" ? What is it with the Japanese that makes them "nationality-blind" or "culture-blind" even when living years abroad ?

[DoctorP]

Here in Belgium I have attended a few meetings with Japanese people with my wife (I was the only non-Japanese), and all of them still refer to the locals (Belgians) as gaijin, eventhough most are married to one. Why can't they say "berugi-jin" ? What is it with the Japanese that makes them "nationality-blind" or "culture-blind" even when living years abroad ?

I would think that they use gaijin more because it is easier to say than berugijin...don't you think? Still gaijin covers it all, no need to break it down more. It to me, is still akin to saying asian if I am unsure if the person is Japanese, Chinese are Korean.


Back to the poll...

Being that it is after midnight here and not so many people around me. I did my best.

Of the 15 Okinawan's I polled, they all said that gaijin just means foreigner...basically just not Japanese, but not necessarily not from Japan...so based off my conversations with them, this meaning would be correct even if used in another country.

Of the 37 Americans I spoke with, 28 of them had the same response. 7 of them weren't sure what to say, and and 2 of them had a similar view as you do.

The ages for the Okinawans were from age 34 to 56, and the Americans ranged from 19 to 37.

I realize this means little to you, but it is a sampling of the people I see daily.

[ricecake]

A big portion of Japanese society still believes the 1930's propaganda that they are superior to other Asians.



This one single sentence finally dragged me into this.

As a Chinese descent,me and nearly all Chinese generally " rarely " like to air any unhealthy-psychological dirty laundry to Western people as to how exactly Japanese,Chinese,and Koreans treat and feel about each other.

According to my Chinese language translated book title " Yoshiko Yamaguchi,My Story ",a Manchuria-born and bred Japanese descent who was a well-known Chinese-speaking actress during 1930's Japanese Occupation with stage name " Lee Shan Lan ".One passage in her autobiography,she recall her first trip to her ancestral homeland Japan in 1939 where the oceanliner docked,this one Japanese man working at the port bluntly said to her face ... for a first class race like Nihonjins,WHY are you dressed ( traditional Chinese Qipao ) as a third class people meaning the Chinese.

There is absolutely a " love and hate " vicious cycle between Japanese,Chinese,and the Koreans,I can vouch it.I don't foresee an end to it in my lifetime.

Both Koreans and Chinese do know typical Japanese have " superiority complex " toward other Asians.

Though very very few Western people know,it was the Koreans traditionally " looked down " on JAPANESE and other northern Asian NOMADIC CLANS as INFERIOR for many many centuries when their Korean ancestors sucked up to " yellow race master " Chinamen.In the case of JAPAPNESE today,they happen to SUCK UP TO WHITE PEOPLE.

[Maciamo]

I would think that they use gaijin more because it is easier to say than berugijin...don't you think?

Easier from what point of view ? Pronuciation ? Or easier to put everyone in the same basket ? Either way I do not think it is "easier" and certainly not more appropriate.

[DoctorP]

Maciamo I get it...you do not like the term gaijin. But I still do not see it as a slur, I personally see no problem with it. It doesn't carry the same meaning as spic, slant eye, nigger, wet back, etc... You may feel that way, but it is just not so.

[ricecake]

Just ask your Japanese friends what they think of the Chinese.



Both Japanese and the Koreans bad-mouth Chinese for some " undesirable cultural " short-comings or behaviors.Chinese is least outwardly snobbish compare to these two East Asian nationalities.Apparently,Japanese have no reservations around white people who they comfortably play chummy,whereas they would make loose snubbish remarks perceivingly " racist ".

As you simply wrote in a few old posts of yours,most Japanese know Chinese people HATE THEM.The Koreans also held " unwavering " hatred toward Japanese,those stubborn bittered Chosunjins wouldn't easily let go.Koreans are more forgiven toward China not Japan for past military aggressions.

Western media don't ever took interest in reporting what Chinese and the Koreans said or think about Japanese as a people,for whites would commonly take it as plain " grudge " not as serious thoughts.

Chinese people in general regard Japanese as psychological PERVERTED Asian folk,mainly for their mentally-inbalanced-attitudes toward East Asian kins and perverted sexual lenses (HENTAI is one example).One Japanese forumer here brought it to my attention recently,there is a growing number of young mainland Chinese openingly ridiculed J-girls in some sexually demeaning ways in internet forums.

Japanese have had their " downed days " as a people as well.One Japanese-American documentary program aired on a local PBS station here in northern California in the 1990's,depicting a Japanese-American family tried to make ends meet running a Chinese food place between 1940's-1950's they were obstracized by white American society.One scene with 7 year old Sansei daughter questioned her mother as to WHY she LIED to customers THEY'RE CHINESE,as for the word " Japanese " could only bring social rejection or outright racism in those dark years for Japanese-Americans.

White folks probably consider the " in-fighting or bickering " among Japanese,Chinese,and the Koreans as A PSYCHOLOGICAL FREAK SHOW they can laugh at us for our idiocy.

[changedonrequest]

Don't worry. Someone will reprise the topic within the year.

[edit]

Within the hour, as it turned out.....

How in the world did you know, (as he asks while rolling his eyes), and lo and behold it's you know who that has to step in in again.....:okashii:

The other thing that is quite obvious as well is that Maciamo has a inferiority complex. Also I can not understand for the life of me how anyone could even for a moment try to compare the word nigger with gaijin. It boggles the mind.

[RockLee]

I agree with CC1, I don't see it as a slur either. Like someone said before, it depends on the way people use it.

@Hachiro: Don't go that way again, you have already made clear you don't like him. You don't have to explain in every thread ;-)

[Mike Cash]

I want to clarify something. Political correctness refers to one choosing to use "the N word" in place of "nigger".

Choosing to use the word nigger in reference to someone or a group is in fact racist. For that matter, calling someone or a group: a black man/woman, negro, negroid, spade or any such term would be racist in my book.

I like to be up-to-date on political correctness.

In the future, when I wish to attract the attention of a black person, I will shout "Hey, you enword! C'mere!"

[changedonrequest]

Maciamo should know better than to make comparisons like that.

He continually adds commentary that he knowingly expects to get a heated response.

Like someone else wrote here before his posts carry a different weight to the casual reader, as his name says Admin under it.

Those casual readers should be aware that the person with "race" problems or misunderstandings is Maciamo.

Lastly I wanted to add this;

The word gaijin is color and race blind, any and all foreigners in Japan are gaijin. To equal it even remotely to the word nigger or any other distinctly racial slur, spic, polack, beaner, wetback, or chink, whatever is just plain wrong.

[Glenn]

Could you post that in English too kkkktttt? Because not everyone can understand Japanese :) Thank you!

He can't, actually. He's said so much before. He can understand written English, but he can't write in English.

The term nigger has always been a racist term.

Not according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_(word)), however much credence you want to lend it.

In the United States, the word nigger was not originally considered derogatory, but merely denotative of black, as it was in much of the world. In nineteenth-century American literature, there are many uses of the word nigger with no intended negative connotation (see below). The perception of the term nigger as derogatory is no doubt related to the fact that the Negro race itself was widely regarded as inferior, lazy, simian-like in appearance, stupid, and criminally inclined by many whites of the time.

Also I can not understand for the life of me how anyone could even for a moment try to compare the word nigger with gaijin. It boggles the mind.

Who's saying they're the same? I know that I brought it up, but I thought I made it clear that I knew the difference (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=354187#post354187) (although I was wrong about it always being derogatory too, if you believe wikipedia).

[DoctorP]

(although I was wrong about it always being derogatory too, if you believe wikipedia).


I have stated before that I don't! I tend not to put too much trust into something that can be modified by anyone.

[Glenn]

Oh, one more thing I wanted to mention: "negroid" isn't a racist slur; it's a scientific term, just like "mongoloid" and "caucasoid."

And I thought that the politically correct way to refer to black people was "African-American," even though that doesn't make much sense to me.

[pipokun]

...
Here in Belgium I have attended a few meetings with Japanese people with my wife (I was the only non-Japanese), and all of them still refer to the locals (Belgians) as gaijin, eventhough most are married to one. Why can't they say "berugi-jin" ? What is it with the Japanese that makes them "nationality-blind" or "culture-blind" even when living years abroad ?
Your story above is a bit generalised, but I bet your wife will get more interesting stories, at least for you, when she gets involved in more Japanese community, esp., expats' wives don't speak French, Flem., or whatever.

[DoctorP]

Oh, one more thing I wanted to mention: "negroid" isn't a racist slur; it's a scientific term, just like "mongoloid" and "caucasoid."



Thank you for pointing that out...I actually realized it after I typed it, but was just too lazy to edit the post. Interesting thing is that on the US visa application Japanese are considered mongloids.

And I thought that the politically correct way to refer to black people was "African-American," even though that doesn't make much sense to me.

I was referring to the idea that people are afraid to say nigger, but instead will say "the n word".

[changedonrequest]

Who's saying they're the same? I know that I brought it up, but I thought I made it clear that I knew the difference (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=354187#post354187)

Glenn I was not refering to you or your post. Im sorry that you took it that way.

Hell I know of people when I was living in North Carolina in the US that refered to "white" folks as "niggers" as well. Then again those were some REAL country folk.

However like I wrote and I would hope that people would understand that the word gaijin has nothing to do with race.

[DoctorP]

Hell I know of people when I was living in North Carolina in the US that refered to "white" folks as "niggers" as well. Then again those were some REAL country folk.


Don't you mean 'nigga? :blush:

[changedonrequest]

Don't you mean 'nigga? :blush:
:p Yup you 'bout right dere! Aiz fergot how dem der folk all talk, bin quit a while.

[gaijinalways]

Hmm, I would tend to agree with CC1 and Hachiro, that 'Nigger' and Gaijin don't exactly serve the same purpose, yet they both serve to label people and separate them from other groups.

Posted by Maciamo...
Here in Belgium I have attended a few meetings with Japanese people with my wife (I was the only non-Japanese), and all of them still refer to the locals (Belgians) as gaijin, eventhough most are married to one. Why can't they say "berugi-jin" ? What is it with the Japanese that makes them "nationality-blind" or "culture-blind" even when living years abroad ?

It does seem odd. My wife who is Japanese thinks it's odd (she herself lived in England for ten years) and wonders why most Japanese have such a strong urge to label all others as non-Japanese. Yet when most of use live overseas, I would hardly think that would be my first thought, Americans and non-Americans, as it would more likely be locals and non-locals.

[JimmySeal]

And I thought that the politically correct way to refer to black people was "African-American," even though that doesn't make much sense to me.

It may be the politically correct term, but it's a silly, and often wrong term. See below:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=your_stupid_ideas

[Mikawa Ossan]

And I thought that the politically correct way to refer to black people was "African-American," even though that doesn't make much sense to me.
Not every black person on Earth is an American, you know....

[Mike Cash]

Not every black person on Earth is an American, you know....

But they must be. I've heard American reporters in Africa refer to the blacks there as "African-Americans". (Seriously, I have).

[Mikawa Ossan]

But they must be. I've heard American reporters in Africa refer to the blacks there as "African-Americans". (Seriously, I have).
Talk about manifest destiny!

[Mike Cash]

I'll never forget one of the reporters. The story was out of Zimbabwe and dealt with the racial problems between whites and blacks there. The reporter came to a point in the report where he had to make mention of the actions of one side....the black population.

He suddenly stopped in mid-sentence, the tone of his voice making it clear he had just mentally slammed the brakes on a foot-in-mouth moment and narrowly averted the disaster of saying "black". Half a beat later he confidently came out with the PC term "African-American" and continued blithely on to the end of his report.

[JimmySeal]

Not every black person on Earth is an American, you know....
And not every black person on Earth is African either, and not every African-American is black (see link).

[Mikawa Ossan]

What'S wrong with just saying "black"?

The whole PC movement had/has merit, but there's a point in which it's just ludicrous. (Thanks for the link, JimmySeal.)

[changedonrequest]

The whole PC movement had/has merit, but there's a point in which it's just ludicrous.

I would emphasize the had more than the has, it has gotten out of hand to the point of being incomphrensible.

People are afraid to call a spade a spade.

[Glenn]

Now I feel outright misunderstood.

And I thought that the politically correct way to refer to black people was "African-American," even though that doesn't make much sense to me.

I also made my position clear here (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=140210#post14021) (although that was a while ago).

I don't consider "'n' word" as being politically correct; I consider it one way to get around a taboo (somewhat like a euphemism).

[gaijinalways]

Then we can start using 'yellow' too?!:souka:

[leonmarino]

Then we can start using 'yellow' too?!:souka:
Make-up in Japan is widely divided in two kinds: one for white-skinned people and one for yellow-skinned people. The make-up for white-skinned people is reffered to as "white", whereas for the other they use the term "gold", which I find hilarious.
I guess it is ok to say white but not yellow, according to the make-up industry anyway.

[osias]

Make-up in Japan is widely divided in two kinds: one for white-skinned people and one for yellow-skinned people. The make-up for white-skinned people is reffered to as "white", whereas for the other they use the term "gold", which I find hilarious.
I guess it is ok to say white but not yellow, according to the make-up industry anyway.
Really?
I thought Europeans (or Americans?) use the word "golden" to refer to their tans. Perhaps, it's a borrowed word.

[RockLee]

Not that I know of. I never heard the word "Golden" for tans before.

[ricecake]

Make-up in Japan is widely divided in two kinds: one for white-skinned people and one for yellow-skinned people. The make-up for white-skinned people is reffered to as "white", whereas for the other they use the term "gold", which I find hilarious.

I guess it is ok to say white but not yellow, according to the make-up industry anyway.



Hehe .... LOL .... Japanese' self despise of own race is extreme ... hehe ... we do know Japs are very uncomfortable with the word " yellow " whereas they regard whiteness as natural fit for them " Nihonjins " ... hehe ... hehe

[Mikawa Ossan]

Hehe .... LOL .... Japanese' self despise of own race is extreme ... hehe ... we do know Japs are very uncomfortable with the word " yellow " whereas they regard whiteness as natural fit for them " Nihonjins " ... hehe ... hehe
And what do Chinese feel about light skin? Are there skin lightening creams and whatnot in China, Taiwan, etc.?

As I understand it, Japanese women liked to have fair skin well before the "opening" of Japan to the West. Not everything that has to do with skin color is race related.

[osias]

Not that I know of. I never heard the word "Golden" for tans before.
Japanese do not use this word "golden" though. An adjective to describe their skin is either "black" or "white". Not yellow. I think "gold" may be a word used in cosmetics.
http://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=%22golden+skin%22+tan&ei=UTF-8&meta=vc%3D&fl=0&pstart=1&fr=top&b=21

[osias]

Hehe .... LOL .... Japanese' self despise of own race is extreme ... hehe ... we do know Japs are very uncomfortable with the word " yellow " whereas they regard whiteness as natural fit for them " Nihonjins " ... hehe ... hehe
Why do some Chinese people come to this "Japan" forum to do the racist rants...sigh

[RockLee]

Japanese do not use this word "golden" though. I think it may be a word used in cosmetics.
http://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=%22golden+skin%22+tan&ei=UTF-8&meta=vc%3D&fl=0&pstart=1&fr=top&b=21I looked up some stuff in Dutch, and it seems in cosmetics they use golden too. I did some search on google for ゴールデン肌(go-ruden hada) and ゴールデンスキン(go-ruden skin) and found some sites. Seems it's used too in Japan, didn't get that many hits though.

http://style.beauty.yahoo.co.jp/fashion/column/celeb/20060217/detail1.html
http://celebritylife.blog60.fc2.com/blog-category-12.html

[RockLee]

Come on now people, stay friendly!

[Dutch Baka]

Hehe .... LOL .... Japanese' self despise of own race is extreme ... hehe ... we do know Japs are very uncomfortable with the word " yellow " whereas they regard whiteness as natural fit for them " Nihonjins " ... hehe ... hehe

Watch your words Ricecake!!!

[ricecake]

Why do some people come to this "Japan" forum to do the racist rants.



Oh .... crybaby :(

Care to read some particular individuals' postings here these past 4 years,it's not NON-Japanese Asians rather it's " others " :angryfire done much of racist rantings here against Japan and Japanese....:lol:

[Glenn]

Then we can start using 'yellow' too?!:souka:

Interesting point, but I think that that word carries more negative and pejorative connotations than "black" does. I think "red" is probably the same way. My whole point is why invent a new term that isn't even as accurate as the old term, especially when the old term was neutral?

[Mike Cash]

Oh .... crybaby :(
Care to read some particular individuals' postings here these past 4 years,it's not NON-Japanese Asians rather it's " others " :angryfire done much of racist rantings here against Japan and Japanese....:lol:

I would have a neutral opinion of the Chinese were it not for the words and attitudes of the Chinese I meet on JREF.

[osias]

Different cultures have different names for colors, and may also assign some names to slightly different parts of the spectrum. Like what you may call green or blue in English is just one word あお("Ao") in Japan. Japanese people think their skin is either white or black, i think this also has something to do with how a culture defines a color. It's the same in the Chinese language, too, the Chinese do not say their skin is yellow. (Because "the Chinese suck up to white folks" or because they "despise their own race"lol???) In English, people happen to call asians yellow.

Yellow, according to my definition is this color:
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7425/commonyellowthroat1595lt.jpg

[changedonrequest]

You know now this thread has turned into a comedy about "colors", putting the thread back on topic here.....

All foreigners here in Japan regardless of color or race are gaijin. Hence the word is not a racist slur.

[Damicci]

I find it funny that even the OP doesn't post in here any longer. Gaijin coul dbe considered racist if you want to look at it as an exclusionary term for people not of Japanese decent. I think thats one way people look at it. But it is what it is. It's used in a racist way used in a non rcist way. There is no win / lose here. It's like calling a friend Baka or calling a stranger Baka. One will be insulted while the other knows you mean no harm in the word.

[Gaijinian]

the Chinese do not say their skin is yellow
Read the kanji on the bottom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pb6YyU_qcI&search=chinese
Notice the 黄色的臉 part...
Anyway, Japanese has the word 黄色人

[ricecake]

It's the same in the Chinese language, too, the Chinese do not say their skin is yellow.



WTF are you talking ??

Chinese language has many subgroups and sub-dialects,the word " YELLOW " has been part of Chinese culture for 4000 years with the beginning of legendary ancestral emperor named Huang-Di meaning " Yellow Emperor ".

Chinese race is first and foremost yellow people,PERIOD.

[godppgo]

WTF are you talking ??
Chinese language has many subgroups and sub-dialects,the word " YELLOW " has been part of Chinese culture for 4000 years with the beginning of legendary ancestral emperor named Huang-Di meaning " Yellow Emperor ".
Chinese race is first and foremost yellow people,PERIOD.

The country of China did not exist until the early 1900s. East Asia mainland has been ruled by various kingdoms founded by various races such as the Mongols, Manchus, Hans...etc.

[ricecake]

Well .... these Mongoloid ethnicities are all " yellow " skinned people regardless,a Japwanese person probably have little confusion.

[changedonrequest]

Well .... these Mongoloid ethnicities are all " yellow " skinned people regardless,a Japwanese person probably have little confusion.

Can anyone explain how a topic that was discussing whether or not the word gaijin is a racist slur has turned into a talk about Chinese people and the use of he word "yellow"?:souka:

And if the poll results can be trusted, the majority of respondents agree that the word is not racist either.

[Mike Cash]

Gaijin coul dbe considered racist if you want to look at it as an exclusionary term for people not of Japanese decent. I think thats one way people look at it.

I've heard it used to refer to people of Japanese descent numerous times.

[Mike Cash]

Can anyone explain how a topic that was discussing whether or not the word gaijin is a racist slur has turned into a talk about Chinese people and the use of he word "yellow"?:souka:



Easy. Ricecake showed up in the thread.

Next question, please.

[changedonrequest]

Next question, please

Mmm, could you tell me what numbers I should pick tomorrow for the LOTTO 6.......Only winning numbers please!

Ok back on topic.....

Easy. Ricecake showed up in the thread.


Ahhh so desuka?!:relief:

[Damicci]

I've heard it used to refer to people of Japanese descent numerous times.


So why people so bent out of shape about the word. :souka:
Obviously here it is not meant to be a racist slur. so can we kill this thread?

Pretty please with sugar on top. :wave:

[osias]

Read the kanji on the bottom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pb6YyU_qcI&search=chinese
Notice the 黄色的臉 part...
Anyway, Japanese has the word 黄色人
It's an adopted western concept. Colors are metaphors for the classification of different races in the west.

Color metaphors for race:

In some societies, color metaphors are used in racial classifications. These often originated from differences in human skin color, particularly in Western societies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_metaphors_for_race

In China:
Huang (yellow) is a common surname, but does not refer to the East Asian race as was popular in Western languages until recently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_metaphors_for_race#China

A japanese person's skin turns くろ"black", when she gets a tan, she turns しろ"white" in winter. The amount of melanin is the determinant of skin color, and the color can range from almost "black" to nearly "white", so it makes sense. At least, that's how they say it in their language.

Some basic knowledge of linguistics may be useful..

Course in General Linguistics:
The basic principle of the arbitrariness of the sign (l'arbitraire du signe) in the extract is: there is no natural reason why a particular sign should be attached to a particular concept.

In further support of the arbitrary nature of the sign, Saussure goes on to argue that if words stood for pre-existing concepts they would have exact equivalents in meaning from one language to the next and this is not so. Different languages divide up the world differently. To explain this, Saussure uses the word boeuf as an example. He cites the fact that while, in English, we have different words for the animal and the meat product: Ox and beef, in French, boeuf is used to refer to both concepts. A perception of difference between the two concepts is absent from the French vocabulary. In Saussure's view, particular words are born out of a particular society’s needs, rather than out of a need to label a pre-existing set of concepts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_in_General_Linguistics#Arbitrariness

There is no essential reason to call asian skin "yellow", a culture/language can assign any word it likes.

If the origin of modern science was in Japan, the "white race" could have been called ももいろ"pink people", or whatever.:blush:

[osias]

Anyway, what makes the skin pigmentation so essential to the classification of races?? This is a stupid idea that someone in the west came up with.

Melanin-based bias in human societies

When skin pigmentation as a characteristic of race becomes significant in some way, this phenomenon is known as racialism. Many people and societies overlay racialism with racist perceptions and systems which arbitrarily assign to groups of people a status of inherent superiority or inferiority, privilege or disadvantage based on skin color or racial classification. Apartheid-era South Africa is an example of a white supremacist society based on a system of stratification of power and privilege by skin color, as well as racial admixture. Similar examples can be found in Brazil's highly socially color-stratified society; and, in the U.S., segregation and institutional racism on the part of white-controlled and black-controlled institutions, and internal "color consciousness" on the part of some ethnic minorities. Prejudice against people with more highly pigmented skin is the most pervasive form of color bias. Many other societies remain informally divided on the basis of skin color and, often, related ethnicity. (See also colonialism, Nazism, pigmentocracy and institutional racism.)

Various presumptions about people with regard to hair color are far less common than skin-color bias, have far fewer and less serious real-world implications, and are more often applied to women than to men. Common stereotypes in the West are dumb blondes, hot-tempered redheads and vixen brunettes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin#Melanin-based_bias_in_human_societies

[Mike Cash]

Anyway, what makes the skin pigmentation so essential to the classification of races?? This is a stupid idea that someone in the west came up with.

Yeah, why can't we be like Asians, who learned how to despise each other quite nicely despite sharing similar pigmentation?

(It's okay, osias. You can say, "some white guy" instead of "someone in the west".)

[osias]

Well .... these Mongoloid ethnicities are all " yellow " skinned people regardless,a Japwanese person probably have little confusion.
Are you "黄色"?
皮膚呈黄色??
http://www.healthliving.com/ency/bency7_04.htm
You may be sick. Go see a doctor.

[Timey]

just some opinions.
"yellow" is used for all Asians. It's the same as people used the words "white" for caucasians and "black" for afro american people.
All have racism slur, i don't find it comfortable to hear anyone use this kind of words as it refer to the skin colour ---what the difference anyway ? we're all human race , why fuss ???
BUT...i find some people don't really understand the connotation meanings of the world and use it as the easiest way to differ people from different background, not intended as racism slur.

the word "CHINA" itself already have a racism slur if we look up the history when the word was first used in the war...oh..it has nothing to do with 中国　kanji, at all. BUT as it become an international words already, why complain ?

and any stoopido try to argue that chinese or japanese people wouldn't find the words "yellow" offensive, try to use it on people who UNDERSTAND english...
bet you'll get punched on your nose for being an ignorant..

well...what to say..you deserve it..
in the end, it's all depends on the listeners..will they get offended ?
they have a right to get offended.

ever heard the word : "Respect" ??

oh, just in case anyone wonder..
i'm chinese grew up in other country, call me 'yellow', i don't care..
try to use in front of my face and i'll guarantee you'll end up with the tip of my umbrella stuck on your nose:evil:

[changedonrequest]

ever heard the word : "Respect" ??

oh, just in case anyone wonder..
i'm chinese grew up in other country, call me 'yellow', i don't care..
try to use in front of my face and i'll guarantee you'll end up with the tip of my umbrella stuck on your nose:evil:

Well said, and I hope that other's take your point as well. :cool:

[godppgo]

in the end, it's all depends on the listeners..will they get offended ?
they have a right to get offended.
ever heard the word : "Respect" ??
oh, just in case anyone wonder..
i'm chinese grew up in other country, call me 'yellow', i don't care..
try to use in front of my face and i'll guarantee you'll end up with the tip of my umbrella stuck on your nose:evil:

I have yellow skin and I don't get offended when people call me "yellow". Serioulsy, what's the biggie? What's wrong with other people calling us by our skin color? Isn't that who we are?? I call my black friend black people and white friend white people, so why can't they call us yellow people?

Also what does respect have to do with any of these? The only reason why you think the words "China" and "yellow" are offensive is probably because you have such low self-esteem about your own identity that usage of such words offend you so easily. This is the same Asian-Pride/China-Pride crap commonly observed among young Chinese descendents who live oversea.

[Dutch Baka]

oh, just in case anyone wonder..
i'm chinese grew up in other country, call me 'yellow', i don't care..
you don`t care people call you yellow
try to use in front of my face and i'll guarantee you'll end up with the tip of my umbrella stuck on your nose:evil:
and here you DO care people call you yellow...

so what is it?

( we are all from africa, all have the same blood color, all have feelings, etc)

[Gaki]

I have yellow skin and I don't get offended when people call me "yellow". Serioulsy, what's the biggie? What's wrong with other people calling us by our skin color? Isn't that who we are?? I call my black friend black people and white friend white people, so why can't they call us yellow people?
Also what does respect have to do with any of these? The only reason why you think the words "China" and "yellow" are offensive is probably because you have such low self-esteem about your own identity that usage of such words offend you so easily. This is the same Asian-Pride/China-Pride crap commonly observed among young Chinese descendents who live oversea.

IIRC the term 'yellow' derives from when the Chinese communities in America who tended to stay amongst themselves and out of trouble were deemed 'yellow bellied' (i bet most people have heard that in the old cowboy movies).
Which is why some people find the word offensive.

Personally i use the term jokingly with friends but would not particuarly be pleased if someone i didnt know decided to call me Yellow.
From what i've heard most 'black' people in America arent too pleased with being called Black either.

TBH it's nothing to do with 'AP/CP crap' moreso the fact that people do not like to be classed by ignorant (and often outdated) terms. Try calling a black person a 'Negro' and for some reason i dont think that conversation would end very pleasantly.

[Glenn]

I've yet to meet a black person who's been offended by being referred to as "black."

[Timey]

you don`t care people call you yellow
and here you DO care people call you yellow...
so what is it?
( we are all from africa, all have the same blood color, all have feelings, etc)
i was being cynical and sarcastic, dear...
in real life, i don't think i would give a damn about people calling me 'yellow' --never so far-- i'll just ignore them. People like that just not worth for me to sweat.:-)

[Timey]

I have yellow skin and I don't get offended when people call me "yellow". Serioulsy, what's the biggie? What's wrong with other people calling us by our skin color? Isn't that who we are?? I call my black friend black people and white friend white people, so why can't they call us yellow people?
Also what does respect have to do with any of these? The only reason why you think the words "China" and "yellow" are offensive is probably because you have such low self-esteem about your own identity that usage of such words offend you so easily.
dear godppgo..
just fyi i don't have low self-esteem and I don't get offended easily.
the word 'China' has derogatory meaning IF we try to dig on the history --where it was used in the war period. But as I said, i Won't complain or sue anyone for that..that was in the past, it's just one of the knowledges for me to know about my origin. And...i am NOT offended by THAT word.
as for the word 'yellow', honestly, dear...I've never find anyone used the word for calling people out of respect. The problem might not be the word itself, but the WAY people use it.
Some close friends might use it for teasing or joking..i wouldn't get offended by that..
It's when you met people in the restaurant somewhere and someone yelled at you : "Hey..Yellow! you can sit over there!!". THAT is offensive.
Again..it's HOW people use it, my friend..:chinese:
This is the same Asian-Pride/China-Pride crap commonly observed among young Chinese descendents who live oversea.
Do you have a problem with that ?
Not talking about country or origins..
Everyone got their own pride.
I have mine.
Call it crap, everyone got their own crap also.
and I love mine.

[Timey]

Well said, and I hope that other's take your point as well.


Thanks..

like i said, it's just some of my opinions..

BTW, back to topic..
about the word 'GAIJIN'..

I think Japanese people themselves know that this word had at least 2 version of translation, that's why they avoid using it when talking in front of foreigners.

Again...after talking to some of my non-japanese friends, they said that the word's always used when someone (japanese) tried to offense the foreigners purposely, to attack either physically or mentally.

As for some japanese friends I know, when I asked them about this term, they gave the understanding smile and said "sou desune...". Feel free to make a guess.

so far, i've never been called with that word.

literally, the word 'GAIJIN' means 'outsider', has nothing to do with 'country', no abbreviation, no nothing.

again..make your own guess.

[Mike Cash]

I think Japanese people themselves know that this word had at least 2 version of translation, that's why they avoid using it when talking in front of foreigners.

Who are these Japanese people who avoid using it when talking in front of foreigners? I'd like to meet them.

Are these the same people who are too delicate to ask me my penis size, my pubic hair color, my nipple color, how I like Japanese cooter, and the rest of that sort of stuff?


Again...after talking to some of my non-japanese friends, they said that the word's always used when someone (japanese) tried to offense the foreigners purposely, to attack either physically or mentally.

And I bet every single one of them didn't know they were supposed to be offended until some fellow gaijin told them they were.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Again...after talking to some of my non-japanese friends, they said that the word's always used when someone (japanese) tried to offense the foreigners purposely, to attack either physically or mentally.
As a non-Japanese person who lives in Japan and has a fair command of the language, I have to respectfully disagree with this assessment.

It depends on the context. Yes, that way of using the term exists, but I think its usage is much less confined to this than your friends seem to think.

Non-Japanese often get hyper-sensitive toward issues of race and "gaijin-ness", and find hidden meaning and motives that do not originally exist.

[RockLee]

Are these the same people who are too delicate to ask me my penis size, my pubic hair color, my nipple color, how I like Japanese cooter, and the rest of that sort of stuff?Oh my god Mike! That got me laughing like mad when I read that ! :D :p

off topic..
how do you delete the double posts here ? :?You ask a mod ;-)

[Timey]

...

Are these the same people who are too delicate to ask me my penis size, my pubic hair color, my nipple color, how I like Japanese cooter, and the rest of that sort of stuff?

maybe..
and what's your answers ?:lol:



And I bet every single one of them didn't know they were supposed to be offended until some fellow gaijin told them they were.

no...they don't need some other fellow gaijin to tell them that
they got into the fight --of course not because of the word usage--,
learnt by experience and beat the sh!t out of the offenders...:wave:

[Mike Cash]

no...they don't need some other fellow gaijin to tell them that
they got into the fight --of course not because of the word usage--,
learnt by experience and beat the sh!t out of the offenders...:wave:

And just what was said, precisely, that caused them to do bodily harm to others, and risk imprisonment and deportation? Or was "gaijin" the only word they understood out of what was said?

[Timey]

Interesting..

of course everyone free to have their own opinions

in the end, it's all depends on the listeners, rite ?

maybe i was just being lucky never been called 'gaijin' so far..
i'm not saying i would be offended or not by the word also.
dunno,maybe, maybe not.

i'll get back to you guys when i meet one and report back,
whether it bothers me or not...hehe..

[Timey]

And just what was said, precisely, that caused them to do bodily harm to others, and risk imprisonment and deportation? Or was "gaijin" the only word they understood out of what was said?
i dunno, darling...

i don't like to argue
especially about something i'm not supposed to make any assumption

i just told you what i'd been told also.
they speak perfect japanese..at least better than the offenders speak english:-)

and you haven't answer my first question.. :-)

[godppgo]

Do you have a problem with that ?
Not talking about country or origins..
Everyone got their own pride.
I have mine.
Call it crap, everyone got their own crap also.
and I love mine.

I find it a quite amusing and irresponsible act that when people who have never set their foot on Asian soil in their whole life and was too lazy to pick up at least some basic Asian language associate themselves heavily with Asian culture and openly embracing the so called "Asian/China Pride". These people don't have the slightest idea on the way of life in Asia(China) and being Chinese is all about.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Interesting..

of course everyone free to have their own opinions

in the end, it's all depends on the listeners, rite ?

maybe i was just being lucky never been called 'gaijin' so far..
i'm not saying i would be offended or not by the word also.
dunno,maybe, maybe not.

i'll get back to you guys when i meet one and report back,
whether it bothers me or not...hehe..
I've been called "gaijin" scores of times. Never felt the need to get in a fight over it, though.

[changedonrequest]

The language belongs to the person who use it. Would you argue that the English should be the only ones allowed to define the rules and usage of the English language because it is their language ?

Not exactly a fair comparison, only one country speaks Japanese. If half the world or even a quarter of the world spoke Japanese then I might agree with you but that is not the case.

The English language is not as big a part of the culture as Japanese is to the Japan.

[Timey]

I find it a quite amusing and irresponsible act that when people who have never set their foot on Asian soil in their whole life and was too lazy to pick up at least some basic Asian language associate themselves heavily with Asian culture and openly embracing the so called "Asian/China Pride". These people don't have the slightest idea on the way of life in Asia(China) and being Chinese is all about.

heee ?

what do you mean ???

you mean me ??

care to ask me first -nicely- before make any jugdement ?

WHAT is your problem ??

[Timey]

I've been called "gaijin" scores of times. Never felt the need to get in a fight over it, though.

I guess i'm gonna learn a lot from you..hehe..:cool:

never been caught in a fight before though..

[godppgo]

heee ?
what do you mean ???
you mean me ??
care to ask me first -nicely- before make any jugdement ?
WHAT is your problem ??

Where in my last post did you see me making judegment on you? I was merely making a statement basing on my observation and experience with the Chinese wannabes living oversea. No need to get hyper-sensitive here.

[changedonrequest]

I've been called "gaijin" scores of times. Never felt the need to get in a fight over it, though.

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

If I had a 100 yen for everytime I was called "gaijin" I would be a millionaire 10 times over.

I guess that is a part to some of us being able to live in this country as long as we have, our ability to adjust and not let the little crap that happens in daily life here(or for that matter anywhere) like being called "gaijin" matter.

[Timey]

You ask a mod ;-)

thanks..
how ?

[Timey]

Where in my last post did you see me making judegment on you? I was merely making a statement basing on my observation and experience with the Chinese wannabes living oversea. No need to get hyper-sensitive here.

cos you quoted my post when you posted that one.
so, i guess i wasn't being hyper-sensitive.

I apologize if i happened to misunderstand your post there.

so, care to share some about your observations ?

*offering peace*